Tuesday, August 09, 2005

What has warren changed?

There are many viewers if not posters on this blog who are not familiar with our history. I know great changes began to happen in the eighties and continued until now. Let's just focus on warren for a bit. Help me list the changes he has brought about. Maybe it will help others understand why some of us have left but not denied that there is still truth in Fundamental Mormonism. I think it has been made clear that not all of us think and act like warren. Perhaps this will help explain why.


Street:

I know you will try to justify all the changes however you can. So please do not repost in every one of your replies, it really isn't necessary. All you need to do is give a name and time, anyone interested enough can go back and read the post. And please keep them short as possible. :)

129 comments:

red rocks girl said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
fttc said...

No covenants in heaven
Marriage age
Marriage without parents knowledge
Instant divorces with no input from husband
No recreation
No socializing
No meetings except for work assignment
Kickouts without trial or at least letting one know the offense
Organization of a church
Location of Zion
No need to pay debts because end is imminent
Building temple


I know some of these began during U. Rulons tenure. I believe they were done under warren's influence.

Anonymous said...

A few more

Moderation in all things--don't tell me 20 hour days fits in this category.

Parents partook so much of Babylon that they are unworthy of training their own children.

Prying into other's bedrooms. I personally believe that prying deep into other's private lives (making sure they are "morally pure") is indicative to moral hypocricy, and yes, I have been through this, and it's no fun.

God and the Prophet always and only do right--bright red flag indicating priestcraft.

Priesthood schools removing the Savior out of everything and replacing it with the Prophet or Father because they "are more tangible"

Anonymous said...

One thing I wish is that Warren would listen to Paul Overstreet's song, "What God has joined together let no man put assunder........"
If he believed that Uncle Roy and Uncle Rulon were prophets, then why is he undoing everything they did???

onthestreet said...

This all just sounds like the very first post of this thread, a Free Premature Ejaculation. That has certainly set the tone for your single-thread thong about the Lord cleaning house, leaving YOU naked.

Anonymous said...

The blog is becomming a billboard for spam ads.

Anonymous said...

Come on Street! Is that the best defense you can give?

fttc said...

I guess he was just blowing smoke when he made the challenge to me to list all the changes warren has made. Truth is he can't defend with logic so he has confuse with BS.

outsider said...

well, this poor 14 year old kid has an appointment to see "uncle" Lyle because he watched a movie in St George.....The kid is so confused he says there is nothing here for him and he doesn't believe any of the crap they are pushing. So does he go to Lyle and tell him to take a hike or does he keep up with the crap..tell the truth he loses his family. Lie, and he gets sucked in even more. What do I tell the kid.

fttc said...

This boy is still a dependent of his father. He should let him take care of it. If his father will not stand up for him he has already lost his family. Lyle has no legal authority over this boy. Maybe if his father is put on the spot of taking responsibility we will find some have more backbone than appears.

Any way this goes is a tragedy. Tell the boy he has many friends who he never met praying and willing to help if they can.

Anonymous said...

To the administrator:

Is there a way that you can automatically delete posts from anonymous posters that include a link?

Anonymous said...

Thankya for the delete, administrator. Is there a way that we can notify you quickly when that kind of stuff appears, so we don't have to wait for you to troll the board?

weblog administrator said...

Unfortunately this is the downside of having an open blog. I try to pull down all the spam and/or obscene posts, but I can't spend my entire existence sitting at this keyboard. Apparently the automated spammers have found us. They seem to be triggered anytime someone starts a new thread. I am looking into moving this site onto a message board that will allow for more control, but for now the choices are to keep the blog open or close it to anonymous comments...something that the vast majority of you said you want to avoid.

Weblog Administrator

onthestreet said...

Hey fokes, there are many defenses for those so-called "changes", beside it being a premature thingamujig. I got things to do. I'll get to it when I get to it, you lucky people.

Anonymous said...

Choose the Right! TURN WARREN JEFFS IN!

Call America's Most Wanted
1-800-CRIMETV It's confidental, Jeffs can't trace call back to you. From any phone in USA.

Or on internet: http://www.americasmostwanted.com/report_tip/

Anonymous said...

To the administrator:

I vote to keep it up and open to all.

It is much better to have it in the condition that it now exists in, than to not have it.

I cannot think of anything that anyone has done ever, that has given the world this kind of insight into this closed society.

We do appreciate you.

fttc said...

I second the vote and the kudos.

Amanda said...

Someone said in a different post that On the street is Warren. I believe it is too. Everything he says is a whirlwind of words with very little meaning. Just words thrown together to make it sound "official" It just keeps going in circles. If Warren is so great, then WHY IS HE HIDING?

Amanda said...

Sorry one more thing about On The Street. I have contacted the authorities. I too believe that since this may be Warren defending himself (funny how no one else is on these posts. Oh it's probably because they aren't ALLOWED to use the internet), they should know and they said they would track the posts and find out where they are coming from. A child molester should definitely go to jail.

Amanda said...

Oh and On the street, you need to tell Warren that the teachers he is hiring for your schools aren't so good. Your spelling is atrocious. Very uneducated. The "Prophet" Warren must not be getting the proper signals from god on proper English and spelling. An almighty man like Warren (yeah right) should be automatically given the gift of proper spelling if god is talking to him all the time.

Anonymous said...

Warren was the one who started saying ". . .and the prophet" after every mention of God. He began to subtly insert the prophet into every reference to God, and then saying the prophet is as God to us, thus changing our worship of God to a worship of a man.

He started this while Uncle Rulon was alive, all the while setting up his takeover of the power and authority.

He also went against all the previous prophets in beginning to marry women to their husband's sons after they were widowed. This paved the way for him to marry his own mothers. (What a creep!)

He also went against BY's teachings of "I teach them correct principle and let them govern themselves" by intruding into every miniscule area of our lives, including how to dress, the styles, colors, and patterns to wear, whom to associate with, when and how husbands and wives could sleep together, and the specific words to use in prayer. This is absolutely an abuse of power.

One time after I had decided I didn't believe in his crap and had stopped praying for him, my children informed me that "if you don't pray for the prophet then God won't hear your prayer."

Apparently, this is what they had been being fed in the "priesthood" schools. I was completely incensed and informed them that God will, indeed, hear my prayer and that they had been lied to.

Just more of the same old Hitler trick. . .turn the children against the parents and have them spy on their family and turn them in for the slightest cause.

Anonymous said...

Could it be that Street is using the proper spelling for the Adamic language? Or is that Moronic language?

Amanda said...

To Anonymous who posted at 2:28, may I ask (with the utmost respect) why everyone in CC and Hildale do not stick together and stand up against Warren? You obviously know right from wrong. Others must know the same. Why don't all of you band together and fight for the things you truly believe in? Everyone may have some opinions that differ, but on the whole you all must have the same feeling of deception, the understanding that he is a liar out for his own profit and self satisfaction. Why doesn't everyone keep the old ways and turn against him? Is it that hard?

The truth will set you free said...

Let's see if On the street replies again now that he knows that FBI and other authorities are tracking these posts.

fttc said...

Darn!

I was kind of hoping street would give us the explantions for all the changes. The idea was to let those who don't understand have some idea how drastic things have changed. Street is often incoherent and his spelling is not the best, but he reflects many of the cock-eyed justifications the followers of warren use.

Oh well, a failed experiment would be a worthy sacrifice for putting a stop to warren.

ATAR_i said...

Someone mentioned that OTS was warren, and I must confess that I did indeed not believe my opinion of warren (or OTS) could be lower than it already is.

However, combining those two characters would indeed sink that character to sub human depths.

I doubt it myself - although I'm not certain why. They are both certifiably nuts, both have whacked out theologies and like to bluff and threaten. I like to think that warren is more persuasive than OTS - who has no ability to sway whatsoever - and lacks any skillful manipulative abilities that are evident (at least online).

I would lose some respect for a group of people who could be manipulated by OTS's type of flimsy Streetology. I believe warren - although certifiably nuts and whacked out - does have the manipulative, deceiptful, cunning thing down pat.

Anonymous said...

Warren said we should be calm at all times. We were not to laugh loudly or be at all "silly". Even the word "FUN" was banished.. although I never knew why?

feralfem said...

Weblog Admin:

Thanks for all your hard work trying to make this blog work. I have to admit, though, I really perked up when I read what you said: "I am looking into moving this site onto a message board..."

I have been wanting to suggest that for some time. A real forum / message board would be so much better and easier to keep up with. A blog format is extremely hard to follow.

Good luck, and again, thanks for the time you can afford to keep this available and spam-free.

onthestreet said...

Ooohh, you have contacted the authorities!!!Did they barf on you?

Ooohh, FBI tracking!!!! Who do you think I am?

Anonymous said...

Willy???

rumor-has-it said...

if they want you as bad as they want Warren, you have no need to fear, they will probably protect you. Or look the other way and say they are doing the best they can!

Anonymous said...

atari:
If you've listened to warren's tapes you know that he doesn't make any sense at all, even less than street. warren has spent his whole life in a position where no one ever argued with him. No one talked back, at least not twice, because of the reprimands he dished out. He has always been in a position to demand that people believe him.

The only people he skillfully manipulates are the ones that have grown up in much the same manner, although on the other end of things. They have been told what to do their whole lives and have been taught since birth to believe every word the profit utters. They have been taught from birth that it is a sin to question anything an elder or profit teaches.

warren couldn't convince a normal group of people to put coats on in the middle of a blizzard......he just isn't that good. His kind of magic only works on those under his spell. This spell takes a couple of generations of isolation from society to reach full power.

As far as things he's changed, I heard he changed the Adam-God doctrine, but I don't know for sure. I haven't lived in or around CC for quite a few years and I must admit that I didn't listen too good when I did live there.

Long Time Gone

fttc said...

Actually the Adam-God doctrine is one that I think can honestly be given to his father, under the influence of the Barlows.

Anonymous said...

Warren disciplines by public humiliation.

Anonymous said...

He stopped hockey, and all recreation.
He made it so that contributions are mandatory, not voluntary. Robin Hood, where are you?

He stopped allowing repentance.
He teaches fear not faith.

ATAR_i said...

Thanks Anon, I have listened to a tape, I'd love to hear more if anyone has one they want to send.

atar_i@hotmail.com

Anonymous said...

To those who think OneTheStreet is Warren,You could not be more WRONG!OTS and Warren have entirley diffrent personalities.Most former FLDS know who OTS is,and he is not Warren.

..just wanted to be good said...

We spent hours weeding all "animals that talk" out of text books for the private schools. Because animals don't talk and we don't teach a lie. That also took away any animals that wear clothes. Bye, bye Disney... Hours upon hours weeding out songs that were nonsense songs or fairy tales or animals talking.

There was not much left to use and we had to start inventing our own. Pretty soon any thing "gentile" was of the world and couldn't be used. Then the radio station shut down, there wasn't anything left to talk about or any songs that were acceptable to play. "New Age" was acceptable but I didn't enjoy the mysterious flavor.

"Father" was the word of choice. Any story that said Papa or Daddy was crossed out and wrote over.

Because we don't teach lies..that also did away with Holidays because of the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus and they were just merchant holidays. We would spend the holidays working our buts off at work projects and back to "real" work after. No Breaks!

Mandatory Saturday Projects. At first it was a volunteer thing to help build the meeting house. And people would just come when they could. Then it was every Saturday. Then by 2002 it was mandatory and they had sign in sheets to hand into WJ. and if you didn't show up you would be repremanded. And soon the friends and loved ones were checking on each other to see if they were there. Pretty soon church was that way. If they didn't see you there, you were questioned. All well meaning relatives hoping that you could grasp the vision and not get left behind.
Each church was "new" revelation of if you didn't do "this" you would not get lifted up.
It started with NOT wearing red ties and red dresses.
And everyone complied so well, that they actually would go and ask "What else can we do?" Then it was longies.
And dressed from ankles to wrists.
Each thing was a little thing and each was policed by well meaning relatives.
Now if you have a TV in your house you will not be lifted up. Or any movies.
Purge again.
Then there started to be some really nice houses. And it was told that our houses would be lifted up if we were clean every whit and it was too. So we started cleaning cruisades. And started helping others that couldn't clean themselves. Or good enough for "our" standards. If you had any "bad" books your house would'nt come. And then if you had any bad thoughts.

And we thought it was all good because our town looked so nice and people were painting houses and raking there yards. And anyone that didn't was sliding down to hell. There was alot more money flowing and people upgraded alot.

Colorado City was a poor town,in my estimation, until the 90's. Growing up my Dad was always gone trying to make a living. Home on Saturday, and left after church on Sunday. After the boys were big enough to work, they worked and Dad stayed home. We were always late on power bills and had the power off alot of the summer. Almost never had long distance phone service. Never traveled or went any where other than to town once a month. And most of the time that was just a mother and a child and my turn came around about once or twice a year.
Not all families were that way, but alot were.
We planted gardens and orchards and bottled fruit and vegtables to beat the band. You can live off of almost nothing if you don't have house payments, and live out of the second hand stores. And eat bottled fruit and make your own bread.

They are actually to be complimented on how to raise a big family frugally. But they say that Utahans are the most gulible people in the world. They just think that all people are doing good. Because they are.

fttc said...

Outsider

What happened to the boy you spoke of?

mugwump said...

Just want to be good....

Your account of childhood reminds me of one of Jesus' addresses to the pharisees. Jesus called them (pharisees were religeous leaders of the day) whitewashed tombs, lovely to look at, but containing decaying flesh. You can paint the outside, but the inside is as rotten as hell.

I'm really so sorry for your present situation. How can I or anyone expect to be able to immediately express independent thought to you? You have had nothing to stimulate your imagination. Without that early stimulation no wonder World history or even American History, happening away from your little corner of the world, would seem so frightening and foreign.

Without imagination life tends to become drudgery. Imagination can allow your mind to soar to heights beyond your dreams.

Prior to 1492, when Colombus discovered the New World, everyone thought the world was flat. Magellan sailed around the world and proved that the world was round, like a ball. Both these men had imagination and stretch their experience by daring to go forward just one additional step. Imagination allows you an ability to see life both more primitive and more advanced than what your eyes can see. The idea that if you can't see it, its not so is a trap to prevent your imagination from seeing possibilities beyond the horizon.

In many ways your life experiences have seen many of the most horrible conditions that can be imagineed. I can't imagine a loving father taking his very young daughter and giving him to a man she doesn't even know and who is know to abuse children. My child is God's gift to me as a parent. What kind of parent would give a child a snake instead of a hug? What kind of monster has been created in your everyday world? Why should this behavior be considered as normal and acceptable while nursery rhymes and childhood stories are considered an abomination? Do all children grow up expecting to be sexually ravaged by their fathers and uncles? How does this promote a healthy family?

onthestreet said...

Amanda said...
Someone said in a different post that On the street is Warren. I believe it is too. Everything he says is a whirlwind of words with very little meaning. Just words thrown together to make it sound "official" It just keeps going in circles. If Warren is so great, then WHY IS HE HIDING?
8/10/2005 2:13 PM

"I AM one eternal round, saith the Lord, and HIDETH up my treasure."

mugwump said...

He hideth becauseth he is afraideth

Anonymous said...

to be good:

Brings back a few memories. I grew up a little earlier than you and left BRW (before rulon and warren) so I was only involved in voluntary work projects. But you know what I would love for dinner? A big thick slice of mom's home-made wheat bread smothered with butter and honey along with a big bowl of home bottled peaches. Oh what a treat.

That's one more thing warboy has changed. My mom can't invite me home anymore.

Long Time Gone

onthestreet said...

Hey, my friend. There is a song: "Come Home, Come Home, it's Supper-Time." We are all the children of God, and he has a glorious home for ALL his children who do not reject God after having seen him, nor shed his blood. He says: "In my house are many mansions, AND I GO TO PREPARE A PLACE FOR YOU. There are nine glorious mansions or degrees of glory in three. So unless you are a cold-blooded killer, "COME HOME."

onthestreet said...

SUPPERTIME

Many years ago in days of childhood, I used to play till evening shadows come. Then winding down an old familiar pathway,
I hear my mother call at set of sun.


CHORUS

Come home, come home, it's supper time. The shadows lengthen fast,
Come home, come home, its suppertime. We're going home at last.


RECITATION

Some of the fondest memories of
my childhood were woven around
suppertime, when my mother used
to call from the back steps of the
old homestead, "come on home
now son, it's suppertime." Gee, I'd
like to hear that once more, but
you know for me, time has woven a
realization of truth that is more
thrilling and that's when the call
comes from the portals of glory to
come home, where it's supper time,
when all of God's children shall gather around the table with the Lord Himself,at the greatest suppertime of them all.

REPEAT CHORUS


I would love to see you all there.

ATAR_i said...

"mother"...

"mother"...

shouldn't it say mothers?

I guess if you're going by this song, and only kids with ONE mother get to gather round the table witht the LORD - doesn't that mean we WON'T see you there (don't worry, if I remember I'll throw you a crust).

Anonymous said...

Hey OTS; that's just one more way that Warren is the opposite of Christ. Christ says "Come follow me" and Come Home etc. Warren says "Go away" "repent from afar", "you are not good enough for me" etc.

mugwump said...

Atar_i

ots (wj) is so fearful of eminent judgement, both secular and heavenly, that he attemps to side-step any question that would serve any purpose other than his own. He is an accuser. He and Satan. That is how he has remained in power. Only when his closest associates, (that is those who continue to live in awe of him) finally realize his duplicity, will any real finality can come to this fiasco. I love to trade insults with him, he is so vulnerable. He has no rebuttal except to quote from obscure "scripture?"

A huge percentage of his former following has been excommunicated or, have elected to leave his tyrantical influence of their own accord. He is fast becoming a "leader" who leads? from hiding. His creditability has plunged and his face has become known to every news outlet in North America. A persona non grata.

He is a "has been." He has shown no respect but expects, as his just due, grovelling respect from all of those over whom he still has a smidgen of power.

He is no longer the spokesman for FLDS. They can't get their act together and find a responsible leader who doesn't inspire to ultimate power above the group.

The man, and his followers are pitiful. He doesn't deserve pity but judgement and, it will come.

Anonymous said...

I don't know why, but I don't think OTS is WJ... If there are those who know for sure who OTS is, I wish they'd share. Id ask him myself, but i don't think he knows.

onthestreet said...

Anonymous said...
Hey OTS; that's just one more way that Warren is the opposite of Christ. Christ says "Come follow me" and Come Home etc. Warren says "Go away" "repent from afar", "you are not good enough for me" etc. 8/12/2005 9:04 AM

That's It! "Follow Him, through His earthly "watchmen" as your own Redeemer put it, or else you GO HOME, but not to HIS presence, but to some other glory. Ahh, so simple that a child can understand it, my child. This is why I say, you are not weened yet. There are three levels: Milk, Meat, and Dessert. But you aren't even drinking the milk. SO YOU STARVE!

onthestreet said...

TAR-MUG: There are three mothers connecting the opposites, and unifying them to the fathers: Mem, Alef, and Shin. Then there are 24 more, to fill a House.

Most astrological systems divide the astrological chart (or natal chart) into twelve houses, which depend more on the time and place of birth (or initiation) than on the date.

The houses are departments of life, described in terms of man's physical surroundings as well as personal life experiences, and have some correspondence with their natural sign, i.e. the first house has a natural affinity with the first sign, Aries, and so on.
In quadrant systems houses are classified as angular (1st, 4th, 7th, and 10th), succedent (2nd, 5th, 8th, and 11th), and cadent (3rd, 6th, 9th, and 12th).

Angular houses represent the potential for action, succedent houses give stability and purpose, cadent houses are communicative and enable change or adaptation.

Definition of Intercepted House: One in which a Sign is contained wholly within the House, which sign does not appear upon either cusp of the House. It is more logical to consider the House as intercepted by the Sign - than the reverse although it is frequently referred to as an intercepted sign, instead of an intercepting sign.

An intercepted House is generally either preceded or followed by one that has the same sign on both the cusps. The affairs of an intercepted House are generally complicated, and the planets therein are of more than average importance.

onthestreet said...

Furthermore the definition of Asiyah is "gather" and Leland ... end effect, is ultimately the Universal House of Justice. This obviously isn't the temporal or secular type of justice granted by the Lord to law-enforcement, but "Universal Justice!"

mugwump said...

OTS

So now you are a student of Zoroaster. You could very well follow your revered Joe Smith and go into fortune telling.

I could tell you what the Bible says about such practices but, you wouldn't pay any attention because you are your own god and don't have to answer to anyone.

onthestreet said...

WE ACCEPT ALL TRUTH, WHEREVER IT IS FOUND.

ATAR_i said...

Wow, new age, astrology, pretty soon you'll be telling us you wear long black outfits and have memorized all the wiccan incantations (only the ones that are true and real of course).

mugwump said...

Well, I guess we're finally cutting to the chase ots, put up or shut up.

onthestreet said...

HERE'S A PUT-UP: "We accept truth, even in HELL", by Brigham Young,
Great Salt Lake City, June 23rd, 1867. JD 12:64

"The Christian world struggled on until the days of the Reformation. But what of the Reformation? Nothing, only it shows that there were some few among them who had courage to come out against the orthodox principles ordained, published, and proclaimed by the Priests. They had an idea in their minds that the Lord was going to do something for the people, but they could not tell what. There was a spirit upon them that prompted them to declare against the wickedness of those professing to be Christians. Did they profess to know enough to take the truth and leave the error? No; down to the days of my youth the Christians did not know any better than to renounce any doctrine that the Church believed from which they came.

This is more or less the case with every denomination on the face of the earth. Some who call themselves Christians are very tenacious with regard to the Universalians, yet the latter possess many excellent ideas and good truths. Have the Catholics? Yes, a great many very excellent truths. Have the Protestants? Yes, from first to last. Has the infidel? Yes, he has a good deal of truth; and truth is all over the earth. The earth could not stand but for the light and truth it contains. The people could not abide were it not that truth holds them. It is the Fountain of truth that feeds, clothes, and gives light and intelligence to the inhabitants of the earth, no matter whether they are saints or sinners.

Do you think there is any TRUTH IN HELL? Yes, a great deal, and where truth is there we calculate the Lord has a right to be. You will not find the Lord where there is no truth. The devil had truth in his mouth as well as lies when he came to mother Eve. Said he, "If you will eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will see as the gods see."

That was just as true as anything that ever was spoken on the face of the earth. She did eat, her eyes were opened, and she saw good and evil. She gave of the fruit to her husband, and he ate too. What would have been the consequence if he had not done so? They would have been separated, and where would we have been? I am glad he did eat. I am glad the fruit was given to mother Eve, that she ate of it, and that her eyes were opened, and that my eyes are opened, that I have tasted the sweet as well as the bitter, and that I understand the difference between good and evil."

Now you see that the FLDS are very progressive and Pro-choice for women's rights and education. Eve partook of knowledge, "and we are glad she did." In point of fact, the Mormons were FIRST in granting women the right to VOTE in the nation. See, the nation was AND IS very backward in granting and maintaining peoples' rights.

ATAR_i said...

LOL, I love it - now the FLDS are pro choice and advocating for women's education (how much education do most the girls get again?) - but pro choice - is the coup de gras.

fttc said...

His handle should have been circle the streets.

Anonymous said...

I've lost my appetite. This is getting way too snippy.

Long Time Gone

onthestreet said...

Yes, it snips here, and snips there, trimming the vines of the vineyard.

ATAR_i said...

fttc - LOL. How about U Turn

mugwump said...

Why did Eve select the fruit? I don't know. Only God does. The one thing that I do know is that she (Eve) had a choice. She made that choice. So did Adam. They did not follow God's order. They paid the price, Abel's death, the flood, Sodom & Gemmorah.

But, God knew what they were going to do so he provided two things: Judgement and a Savior.

Praise God!

Anonymous said...

LONG TIME GONE:

Come to Canada.. We've got bottled peaches and whole wheat bread. Uncle Wink would see to it that you didn't leave hungry.

Anonymous said...

Just Wanted To Be Good:

Wow! That really SUCKS! I grew up flds as well, although I was Canadian. My life was wonderful compared to yours! I dont say that to be rude, I just want you to know that not all the flds families were like that.. Uncle Winston used to have a Winter Fest around Christmas time.. everyone was welcome. We had sleighrides, skiing, hockey hockey hockey, weiner roasts, and programs. Around Valentines we had a SweetHeart program. This was where we had an oportunity to express our gratitude or affection for that special someone through a song or poem. I remember when uncle winston did some bible story programs and we could buy copies if we wished. I still have them and they are priceless to me. (even though warren told us to destroy the evil things!)

divaqs said...

ATAR_i said...
...are pro choice... pro choice - is the coup de gras.
8/12/2005 10:23 PM

The term "pro choice" meant something very different during the time of Brigham Young. It was totally unrelated to the contemporary meaning having to do with abortion, but meant that women were given the choice in Utah to choose their elected government representatives, just like men of that time period.

Our society since then, thankfully, has come a long way in promoting more equality between different genders, races, and religions.

It is sad to see the FLDS missing out on this and failing to understand the importance and benefits of such equal rights.

ATAR_i said...

Divaqs

That's the sort of thing that OTS does. States he's pro-choice - which to anyone today would mean he is pro abortion.

Then, he'd come out and say - pro choice means something different than what it really means. He'd probably throw a few hebrew words in - and then tell how hundreds of years ago it meant something different (and that's how he was using it).

Sort of being able to say whatever you want to justify a position - state how 'liberal' he is and how he is pro-choice. But can dive underneath a loophole stating he really didn't mean what he said - he means something different - and thus it's US whose perverted.

I don't even believe the FLDS of today would call themselves pro choice by any definition. Pro choice today means pro abortion. It might have meant something else a long time ago - but TODAY it means pro abortion.

IN the dictionary THIS is the definition of pro choice. And THIS is what OTS was leading us to believe his opinion was - because - he's speaking to me - who isn't FLDS, or LDS and wouldn't have any idea what sort of meaning that MIGHT have given to that word hundreds of years ago

Pro-choice

Favoring or supporting the legal right of women and girls to choose whether or not to continue a pregnancy to term.

Soooooo, guess what - that's what he said, that's what he means.

onthestreet said...

Pro=For, Choice=Free Agency.

onthestreet said...

Do you all like the brevity there? Yet SO FULL OF . . . MEANING.

Anonymous said...

OTS can say whatever he feels like, we are not flds. If U.Warren has kicked him out then, he is no longer part of us anyway so therefore can not speak for us.

Anonymous said...

what I meant was we are not for abortion. Sorry for the mistake. yes, we are flds. My apology to you.

mugwump said...

Circle the wagons. ots is atacking his own. Hmmmm.......sounds a lot like WJ's policy.

fttc said...

Anon 10:43

Thanks for your input! I wish more of you would speak for yourself instead of letting street have free reign.

onthestreet said...

FLDS: 8/14/2005 10:43 AM

I was HOPING you'd correct yourself. Now, here's another. Our FLDS "pro-choice" doesn't suggest the MURDER of little children. You must have missed all my former posts, you lucky girl. But just yesterday (five posts up), I said:

Pro=For, Choice=Free Agency.

Does that sound like MURDER? Be careful, your're one of Uncle Warren's! The Lord is Lord of our Free Agency. See? This "choice" is just saying our Freedom to Choose that right, for the Truth makes us Free. Yes?

mugwump said...

Oh for pete sakes otc. Why don't you learn from your mistakes. We've seen so many of your cut and paste notices used repeatedly I for one prone to scroll on past your lengthy incoherent ramblings. You don't speak for FLDS any more than I do, I surely don't claim to do so.

ATAR_i said...

Nope you stated you were pro choice and liberal - there is no separate meaning just because you live in Southern Utah - it means what it means.

You believe a woman has a right to choose an abortion.

You are liberal - which puts you in the Ted Kennedy, Madeline Murray O'Hare category - YOU said it - NOT ME.

And - I didn't think that FLDS was pro choice - so thanks for speaking up anon - and confirming that.

fttc said...

Stick it to 'im atar! Street talked himself into a corner, don't let him sidestep it.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8/13 3:23:

I spent some time in Canada when I was in high school, about a month in two different summers. I stayed with a Blackmore family one summer. I don't remember their first name but I do remember their attitude very well. They fed us awesome food, made sure we had a place to sleep, and when we left they tried to pay us for the work we had done while staying.

It boggled my mind! Getting paid for working?!!? We turned the money down but when we left the guy followed us in his truck trying to get us to pull over to make sure we were taken care of.

Long Time Gone

Faithful Woman said...

OTS
Wrong again on the seeking after the good in all things. It is shunn any teaching that isn't 100% of our own making.
Sam Barlow stated that study of zodiac was devil worship.

onthestreet said...

8/14/2005 9:16 PM
Abortion is MURDER, pure and simple. The FLDS is Pro-Choice as to free agency, NOT abortion. The Lord said it HIMSELF: "The liberal soul shall be made fat."

Poor, poor devils, stuck in a corner and can't drag themselves out.

onthestreet said...

Sam Barlow is a good man, and he is right. Most studies of the occult is evil, because of the spirit, and the diversions, and purposes that come from beneath.

However, no sane mind can discredit the zodiac, the constellations. LOOK UP. There it is, and no sane mind would dare say that to study God's creation is evil, or "devil worship."
"We accept ALL TRUTH."
THAT IS FLDS, IN LIGHT AND TRUTH.

ATAR_i said...

OTS is a deceiver, a snake. He says one thing, believes another, and does - yet still a third thing.

If his aim is to be hated in order to be righteous it won't work. It's a thinking error - just because we all think you're crazy doesn't make you a persecuated righteous man - it makes you a unbalanced, insane lunatic

mugwump said...

amen

just wanted to be good... said...

In reply to :"I can't imagine a loving father taking his very young daughter and giving him to a man"?

You have to understand that most FLD do not believe that Warren Jeffs has a "problem". He is a wonderful man to all of them. Having girls married to the prophet is a very great honor for the family and the girl.

Do all children grow up expecting to be sexually ravaged by their fathers and uncles?

NO! Of course not. You hear of problems but they are the exception. My father was a great man and so were all the fathers of the girls I went to school with. Most girls feel honored to live plural marriage. I know that I wanted to. And would have willingly and still would. I am not content to just be status quo. Plural marriage is a constant change and a learning experience for everyone involved. It's great!

mugwump said...

Not being a woman I have no experience whether plural marriage is "great" or not. Neither have I experienced what it would be like to have multiple wives.

However, I have read the reports of many women who have been abused, of children who have been neglected, who don't even have the chance at a basic education, who are forced to work to benefit their father, of women who exploit not being legally married to claim charity from the tax dollars that thousands of hard working Americans have by law been forced to pay.

We hard working Americans don't mind helping the needy. As Christians we feel the responsability of aiding those less fortunate, who have really been forced, by circumstance, not of their own making, to need our help. I for one do oppose assistance to women who have become chattel of a man who won't contribute to the support of children that he fathered, children, who in the legal sense bare by design the title "bastard".

You are not being fair to them nor do you deserve to call them your children. They are your and your maybe husbands property. Children are loved, are cared for, are cherished. You may personally have all these merits, but does that man who claims your body, strictly to impregnate you, have the same sense of duty and responsability?

Happy Canadian said...

I know that this world isn't perfect, but I don't think that there is more abuse in our society
then there is any where else.
We love our children. We want to see them grow up in a safe environment and get an education.
We also have to pay taxes.
Commonlaw relations are legal. We are not the only people that have children with out a marriage license. I do love my family,and my children are loved and protected,they aren't "bastards".
Try not to believe everything you read. My father owns his own business. He is a very hard worker. I have always felt very loved and protected. When I decided I wanted to get married everyone tried to talk me out of it.I did not care what anyone thought. I was ready to get married,and I have not regretted my choice. I am married to a kind loving father. I don't beleive that I could be happier,or more in love. I just hope that my children can always feel safe and know I'll always be there if they need me. I guess I'm just a normal parent.

onthestreet said...

All who are cast off from the Lord are without Father or Mother. That makes them "bastards"

mugwump said...

We are not comparing your lifestyle to any other. Each husband and wife are accountable to a living, loving God who only asks us to confess, believe in His Only Begotten Son's shed blood as the sin-price, paid in full, at Calvary. All things we do in an effort to please God are futile. The only ones impressed are your ward leaders. Even then, when you complete one task they set you to another that is more difficult. You will never obtain the perfection needed to make it to your so called third level of celestial heaven. There is no such place. Adam was not God. God was not Adam. Genesis starts, In the beginning God.....later he created Adam from the dust of th ground. Adam was God's creation and not his co-equal. Adam was not then nor will he ever achieve the ability to be God.

Abraham was not under the law. The law wasn't even known about until, following their resscue from Egyptian bondage the children of Israel wanted a law. God's plan was for man to live under HIS Grace, like Adam, Noah, Abraham, Issac, Jacob, Joseph, all the patriarchs.

The law was given because the children of Israel were used to living in a land where Pharoah's word was law. Moses didn't have the law. He was under grace too until the children of Israel demanded God give the law.

Since the death, burial, and resurection of Jesus Christ we, once again are under God's grace. The full penalty price was paid by God's sacriffice of His Son on the cross, for our sins.
We are under Grace. We will be under that grace into eternity. It is sufficient for all our needs.

Trust the Lord, not a man.

Faithful Woman said...

Is that what you consider yourself street? A bastard?

Anonymous said...

Mugwump....

So we're pretty darn lucky to be born now, not like those of God's children who were born under the law?

You think he hates them that much?

What did they do?

onthestreet said...

Obviously, we are all his seed, and all in one family, bro, and you too sis. None are lost, as far as the saving grace over all his "many mansions".

No, I'm not cast off. None who look to him who is sent, are lost nor cast off.

As for the law, Muggy is right: It was given because Israel had become comfortable in mind, body, soul, and long tradition, with the fleshpots of Eqypt. So when the 15 were offered, they were no more prepared for it than when baptism is given to a bag of sand. America by long tradition has become comfortable with the fleshpots, so the Lord has promised a cleansing.

Like Muggy said, since Christ, we are all under grace in one glory or another, but not all: All except sons of Perdition.

However, "Faith without works is DEAD," and "In order to obtain the highest, a man must live the fulness of my law," saith the Lord.

onthestreet said...

This is the whole basis of the FLDS Church.

mugwump said...

Has anyone else noted that ots seems to be the only voice in his "amen" corner?

onthestreet said...

Every tub must stand on its own bottom.

mugwump said...

I would think that your's would have rusted through by now.

onthestreet said...

You're right. One would think, being continually moistened by the Word.

mugwump said...

"THE WORD" has never worn on me, It (THE WORD) has made me stronger and less likely to develop rusty spots.

onthestreet said...

Good.

mugwump said...

ots

I have three postings now on this weblog. I do not see one with your pseudonym attached.

I knew that the subjects, as I couched them, would in all probability become contriversial. That choice was mine, and I did it on purpose. Can you, without going to your "cut and paste" lexicon of nonsense pose either a question or make an observation for the rest of us? We would like to know your real person, not the flippant, self consumed individual you portray on ths website.

Anonymous said...

Mugwump....

You're thoroughly self-consumed yourself.

mugwump said...

Anon. 8/24/05 2:09 PM

Voice your opinion on a link that you created. What's self-consumed about that invitaion?

I think you are another of ots's multiple personalities. Care to identify which one?

onthestreet said...

Well, actually, it's a public forum. For anyone to suggest that someone else go into a corner and say nothing anywhere else, while boasting as the creator, has well identified themself, and God has your number.

mugwump said...

You dodge the question. Start your own link. If not, Why not?

mugwump said...

We're still waiting!!!!!!

mugwump said...

Just think, if you started your own site you could talk to yourself,

I doubt anyone else would care what you said to each other.

Faithful Woman said...

ha ha ha, street tried that already. It was so boring to him that he had to come back here. Even he can't stand to only have himself to talk to.

mugwump said...

Good insight faithful. He is fun to tease but I think fttc is right,he's a pathetic case.

Faithful Woman said...

most definately

onthestreet said...

fttc:
"WHAT HAS WARREN CHANGED"? Let me remind you (8/09/2005 11:40 PM):

NO COVENANTS IN HEAVEN: Everyone made covenants, even the devil.

MARRIAGE AGE: Well now, since many of our own mothers were married at age 14, 15, 16, back in the 30,'s, 40's, 50's, that hasn't changed either. Also, it is the ancient custom that goes back thousands of years, what the Jews call the Bat Mitzvah, or womanhood at age 12.

MARRIAGE WITHOUT PARENTS KNOWLEDGE: "Who is thy mother, or thy father, or they brother," said the Lord, when he was told his "mother" was waiting.

INSTANT DIVORCES with no input from husband: Who is thy husband, when he violates his vow?

NO RECREATION: "Let thy pleasures be in the Lord."

NO SOCIALIZING: "Come out of her, and be not partakers of her sins."

NO MEETINGS except for work assignment: "If you reject me, I will reject you, and will no more visit you," says the Lord. Also: (Mk. 14:25) Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. And when they had sung an hymn, they went out into the mount of Olives. And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

KICKOUTS WITHOUT TRIAL or at least letting one know the offense: The prophets have always said: "You know when you've done wrong." Also, to go to trial and wrangle about it within the Church, is to lose the Spirit of God or the spirit of peace in what is holy. The House of God is not to be defiled.

ORGANIZATION OF A CHURCH: "We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

LOCATION OF ZION: All of America is Zion: D&C Lesson 12 “THE GATHERING OF MY PEOPLE” All of America is Zion: “The whole of America is Zion itself from north to south,and is described by the prophets, who declare that it is the Zion where...
www.duanescrowther.com/D_C_12-Gathering.PDF

All of America is Zion: “The whole of America is Zion itself from north to south, and is described
by the prophets, who declare that it is the Zion where the mountain of the Lord should be, and that it
should be in the center of the land. When elders shall take up and examine the old prophecies in
the Bible, they will see it. [HC 6:318-19; Burton: Discourses of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 188]

NO NEED TO PAY DEBTS because end is imminent: I personally never heard him say it. Yet, "Forgive us our Debts, as we forgive our debtors."

Time to Forgive Debts: Forgiving debts is not a new idea; in fact, it’s part of God’s age-old answer to the injustice and inequality of capitalism. The Law of Moses calls forJews ...www.bruderhof.com/articles/debt-forgiveness.htm

BBC NEWS | Politics | Election 2005 | Parties vow to end world poverty. It is wrong that the burden of debts of the past should prevent the poorest ... It was in the country's national interest to end world poverty because...
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/vote_2005/frontpage/4477741.stm

BUILDING TEMPLE: The Jews and the Mormons have ALWAYS been a temple-building people. The whole world knows that.

DC 109

... endured many trials and hardships in order to build a house for the Lord. ... Two other revelations from the Doctrine and Covenants transpose the verbs ...
www.gospeldoctrine.com/ DoctrineandCovenants/DC%20109.htm - 91k - Cached - Similar pages
STUDIES IN SAMUEL No. 47

... is David's proposal to build a "house" for the Lord and the Lord's far more ... That is typical of the way in which the Bible teaches its doctrine. ...
www.faithtacoma.org/sermons/ II.Samuel/Samuel.No.47.II_Samuel_7.1-29.htm

ATAR_i said...

My mother was married AFTER high school. Both of my grandmothers were married AFTER high school. My grandmother even graduated from college (very early 1900's) AND THEN got married.

I don't think there have been any of my grandmothers married prior to their HS graduation in the three generations prior to me.

My husbands mother was married AFTER high school, both of his grandmothers were married AFTER high school.

That brings about 8 grandmothers just related directly to my husband and I that go back to the 1800's who WERE NOT married prior to graduation from high school.

anyone else?

onthestreet said...

Ahh, a family of old maids, from generation to generation. Were they also sterile, or were they unprofitable handmaids of their own doing. I mean, our women bear each season like any good fruit tree. Are your women withered? Jesus cursed the tree that was withered.

mugwump said...

I'll bet that they were a credit to their community, a joy to their husbands and comfort and stability to their children. If they weren't they wouldn't have earned the title great grandmother, grandmother,or mother. If atar_i is an example of the training passed from generation to generation I think that they were just what God would have them be.

onthestreet said...

Now that is so right. All have the right to be here, for whatever purpose, or they wouldn't be here. Well put, putt putt.

ATAR_i said...

AN old maid is a lady who was never married. Waiting a few years never hurt anyone. My grandmother, who went to college, went to a four year nurses training course. She met her husband taking care of the sick. Their union has been a blessing to all the generations coming after them.

They purchased large areas of land, and gave them to all of their offspring. My grandmother helped during the war, and you can still find references to the generous spirit of my grandfather online (and no I'm not giving myself away).

Now, they had plenty of kids each family having several to 6. I know that sounds ridiculous to many FLDS, but when you put that many kids through college - it does add up. And that grandmother of mine did just that.

She lived in a home they built, overlooking the land she and my grandfather had purchased, given to their children, and that their children had built their homes on. That, is where I grew up.

I am proud of my heritage.

onthestreet said...

Every child SHOULD BE proud of their heritage. "Honor thy father and thy mother..."

You're okay.

Faithful Woman said...

It is only the women who have "born fruit" every year who are shriveled and broken, who have never ending health problems.

It is the ones who have had two to three years between children that are still young and vibrant and able to be a benefit to the community.

onthestreet said...

What more benefit to a community than to bring more life, more embryonic gods and godesses. This only blesses those who are co-creators with God. If you only see the opposite, it is because you are in opposition to God the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ.

"Let the little children come unto me".

mugwump said...

My children will never come unto you.

They are the children of the King, The Lord of Hosts, The Lily of the Valley, The Bright and Morning star, the Fairest of Ten Thousand, the Rose of Sharon. And if those titles elude you, they are synonymous with the Name of Jesus at whose feet every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus, Christ is Lord.

The book is complete and I have read the last chapter and know how all things will be completed. I didn't determine the outcome and neither do you. You are but the petty mouthpiece of a child abuser on the loose.

onthestreet said...

Then why did Jesus tell his disciples: "YE are the lilies of the valley, or of the field"?

You err every time you crack your lips, or cream your jeans. He proclaims that "The whole world will be deceived", and "FEW there be that find it". Are you trying to tell people that in your raping of your wife and your support of womens'choice in MURDERING their children, that you are the favorite of heaven????????????? I think more that titles alude you. Your very life is at stake.

"And many in that day will proclaim: "Have we not proclaimed your name, and done many good works". And I will say to them: Depart, ye cursed. I never knew you"?

onthestreet said...

You just said that Jesus is the lily of the valley. Jesus is not in a valley, but on a high throne. See your gross errors, son?

ATAR_i said...

How do you what Jesus is always doing - pretty presumptuous (and obviously not true - just more 'little man' bravado).

mugwump said...

He doesn't read anything that is posted unless he can think of some perverted way to twist fact and/ or logic.

Indeed a pathetic "little man."

onthestreet said...

Ahh, gettin to ya, aye?

Hey, if I am little, I'm in such good company. "For ye are my little ones". As for 'pathetic', this suggests pathology. Well, didn't Jesus come to heal. The whole world is sick, but some he will heal.

mugwump said...

and some he will judge by weighin them in the balances and find them wanting.

Little doesn't refer to size it is relative to strength of character.

Do you heal? Or heel to WJ?

Pathos is applied to pathetic behavior.

onthestreet said...

Little DOES refer to size. Strength is strength, and size is size. The Lord requires a certain number in all things. Many such things you don't know, being swine.

Do you heel or follow the Lord, or continue to reject him?

You are weighed and found wanting, you little piggie gone to market.

This then is Zeno's definition of disorder which he terms παθος [pathos], that it is an agitation of the soul alien from right reason and contrary to nature ...

ATAR_i said...

Don't call evil what the Lord has called good.

mugwump said...

No comment. Ots has made himself what he is.

onthestreet said...

Made without hands.

mugwump said...

ots

Se my last post on "Anyone See CNBC with Ross......." Sept. 6 by atar_i