Thursday, August 18, 2005

AP Story of Warren Jeffs Sighting???

I find todays Associated Press story to interesting to put down.

SALT LAKE CITY An F-B-I flier says fugitive polygamous sect leader Warren Jeffs may have been sighted in Leesburg, Florida.

Leesburg was among a handful of places where Jeffs has been thought possibly to be hiding. The F-B-I flier says he's possibly accompanied by his bodyguards and some followers,

Leesburg represents two major interest, per the link it is a hot spot for the Extremist group the World Church of The Creator or WCOTC, a group well tracked on the FBI's radar screen. Second, several months ago I speculated about fringe groups in Florida, Georgia and Tennessee who were claiming to be connected to the Jeffs group. Our informant was about 30 miles from Orlando and guess how far Leesburg is from Orlando?

Since I posed this question to Winston, I wonder whether he knew more or less than I did at the time? WCOTC is under the leadership of Matt Hale and certainly this should lift red flags for the Southern Poverty Law Center! Warren is not easily hidden on his own, unless he is being hidden?

Lets talk about those fringe groups again, that claim to be under the Jeffs umbrella. Either afew in the know were not completely honest or this was a well kept secret. Tell me about those that went to Florida after the Hurricane to pick up work! Maybe I'll talk about how these became involved in the fringe Jeffs followers.

Todays story;



Men In Black said...

I might speculate that Warren is no longer in Leesburg, but hanging out with a bad crowd. Hold up in a motel, in a humid climate, all sweaty and wondering who he will honor next, by being thier guest!
Northern Georgia and Chattanooga TN are no longer a wise direction. Maybe new friends will offer him a route through the former WCOTC underground?

2003-JAN-8: U.S. District Judge Joan H. Lefkow ruled in 2002-NOV that the W.C.O.T.C., as the TCM was then known, violated the copyright of a Christian organization in Oregon, the Church of the Creator 7 by copying their name. 8 The TCM leader, white supremacist Matt Hale, launched a lawsuit against Judge Lefkow because of her decision. The church web site blasted the judge, using anti-Semitic and racial slurs to urge its white supremacist members to "show the k--- and n----- - loving judge that the jailing of . . . Hale will not stop our Church of the Creator!" On 2003-JAN-8, Hale was arrested and accused of conspiring with another individual between 2002-NOV-29 and DEC-17 to kill Judge Lefkow. U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald said: "Freedom of speech does not include the freedom to solicit murder. The conduct alleged in this indictment is disturbing on many levels, but particularly so because it targeted a judge, whose sworn duty is to apply the law equally and fairly to all who appear before her." 9

2005-FEB-28: Judge Joan Lefkow returned to her home to find her husband Michael Lefkow, 64, and her mother Donna Humphrey, 89, dead in her basement. They had been shot to death. The murders came one month before Matt Hale was scheduled to be sentenced for trying to have the judge killed because of her handling of the 2003-JAN trademark dispute. Authorities are investigating whether the multiple murders were a work of revenge by white supremacists. Hale said on MAR-03 that: "There is no way that any supporter of mine could commit such a heinous crime. I totally condemn it and I want the perpetrator caught and prosecuted...I only hope they sincerely wish to apprehend the animal instead of railroading the innocent. Only an idiot would think I would do this." 10 Police later determined that the mass murders were unrelated to Hale and the Creativity Movement. They suspect a man who was angry at Judge Lefkow's decision in a malpractice case. 11

2005-APR-6: U.S. District Judge James Moody sentenced Matthew Hale to 40 years in jail for soliciting an undercover informant to murder Judge Lefkow. Judge Moody said that this "strikes at the very core of our system of government." 11

Anonymous said...

Jay you are insane.The polygamist clans in north Ga.Tennesee are branches of the Naylor and Winston Blackmore Groups.They hate Warren and the FLDS,Were persecuted by Rulon Jeffs and the Barlows for generations.Even helped Warrens runaway wife to escape.To claim they are hiding or aiding Warren is the most ridiculous thing you have ever posted here.

Anonymous said...

Just for the benefit of doubt,Jay the above post refers to the Trenholm,Allred,Wooley and Musser families,not some neo-nazi group who may be claiming affilitiation with a "Jeffs Group"

Men In Black said...

Well you are wrong about the group I am tracking and I'll bet the FBI takes it serious. In April we interviewed a fleeing victim/informant and were leary of her information. It was detailed and we generated nearly 2 hours of recorded conversation. The location was near Leesburg which had little meaning at the time.

The Florida group was small and did not have traditional roots. They modified their dress code which countered that of the FLDS to fit in. The Florida group was in process of merging with the Tennessee group and I can't talk about those who are in Georgia at this time.

Our victim was recruited after the Florida Hurricane and met durring the damage and cleanup process. The Luis Gonzales case in Sacramento California was an example of the same type of recruitment to a fringe or independent group. The merging with the FLDS is new, but Warren was in the same town and area for a reason, I doubt is was an accident!

Do your own homework!

The trial is being held in the Sacramento County Court House, Department 26 located on H Street. Nancy Cachrane is the Deputy District Attorney for Sacramento County, and is prosecuting this case against Luis Gonzales.

That is the past, but not learning from the past damns many to repeat it in the future. You need to think outside the box, why are independents interested in Warren?

I've researched Matt Hale's writings and still have 500 plus of Warren's audio cassettes and find these two similiar. I know Warren was in Wyoming for a time, but could not lock down his location.

There is enough commonality to allow you and others to tell me I am crazy! If the states and FBI would raise the reward to say $50,000. maybe Flora and I could split it and go where LE has not? If not in Leesburg, where would Warren hide? That specualtion won't get posted here. The faithful read this blog right along with Law Enforcement, but neither spent 2 hours on the phone with someone who was able to detail a Warren loyal group in the same community as noted in that FBI flier.

You follow your belief and let me follow mine. I'm not Anonymous, why are you?

Faithful Woman said...

If the FBI were truly trying to catch warren, would they really put out flyers saying that they had a sighting?
I would think that they would keep it quiet till they caught him.

Nope, they are probably just trying to make him so paranoid that he makes a mistake so bad that even his blindest followers will disavow him.

Men In Black said...

There is a shadow history of conspiracy theorist, that came out of the right wing militia's, many concentrated in Northern Idaho. Polygamy was a common thread, sometimes clearly defined by religion, some times as a means to repopulate the white race. There is much written by government intelligence and my exposure in part came from the CGIA/BATF conferences I have personally attended.

It is a philosophy or mindset of common ground between conservative anti-government groups, which has some linked purposes. A concern no doubt for "homeland security". Disruption serves extremist in opposing camps and that common ground is a concern to some as Warren flee's. Finding another fringe group that accepts polygamy and a right wing ideaology, upset at intervention into religious freedom sets a stage where any number of events could occur.

Knowing where Warren is now, verses where he will eventual hunker down, makes for interesting speculation. The mere fact that he refuses to surrender to authorities, raises a potential toward a violent conflict. Alligning with a pro polygamist does not mean that those hiding him have sworn allegiance to him!

Extremist militia types often stretch reason, but there is no short supply of these. Below an example of what LE must analyze, sympathy from a fanatic can present consequences few here have considered. Go ask someone from the Rand Corporation about home grown terrorist, then get back to me! The US has more to fear on the homeland front, than that of Osama's. Again do your homework, the list of plots are endless and documented online. Think outside the box, Jeffs faithful may not mean what you think! Why did the FBI just put Warren on their MOST WANTED list? From a $10,000. reward to the MOST WANTED! What do you suppose might of occured?

Look at Kehoe's twisted plan, do you think Warren is less of a fanatic?

December 12, 1997
A federal grand jury in Arkansas indicts three men on racketeering charges for plotting to overthrow the government and create a whites-only Aryan People's Republic, which they intend to grow through polygamy. Chevie Kehoe, Daniel Lee and Faron Lovelace are accused of crimes in six states, including murder, kidnapping, robbery and conspiracy. Kehoe and Lee will also face state charges of murdering an Arkansas family, including an 8-year-old girl, in 1996. Kehoe ultimately receives a life sentence on that charge, while Lee is sentenced to death. Lovelace is sentenced to death for the murder of a suspected informant, although in early 2005 he will be up for resentencing because of court rulings. Kehoe's brother, Cheyne, is convicted of attempted murder during a February 1997 Ohio shootout with police and sentenced to 24 years in prison, despite his key role in helping authorities find his fugitive brother in Utah in June 1997 after the shootout. Cheyne went to the authorities after Chevie began talking about murdering their parents and showing sexual interest in Cheyne's wife.

Men In Black said...

Faithful Woman I have a theory about this, but will not post it here. To many folks are watching and reading this and some take note of who post what. Certiainly Warren's options are decreasing, but that may have other consequences. Money and sincere belief creates loyalty, I suggest that some here are not looking at Warren's full potential as a fleeing felon. Some will help him for reasons beyond their religious belief.


Men In Black said...

Say what you will, but a growing movement that has a common thread or history with the early FLDS teachings, still uses polygamy as its arguement today. The White Revolution movement claims over a million members and has several identified links still active in Northern Idaho, dispite the departure of Butler and others. If you read this ideaolgy, then listen to Warren's arguements on audio cassette, they are not that far seperated.

Its abit twisted for normal folk, but to others this may all make perfect sense! by David Lane below of WRM;

Another great danger of the Universalists and their New Age Movement is the feminist movement. Young and healthy societies are male dominated. Decadent, dying societies are feminist. The sex drive of the males of a race that wishes to survive must not be subverted, slandered, hindered, or lessened. In our indigenous religions of the past the male Gods were often depicted with huge erect phallus. This is now ridiculed by the enemies of nature’s God as penis worship or evidence of a fertility religion, which only demonstrates their ignorance or their malice. Fertility is necessary to life. Those out of power raise armies with promises of plunder, revenge, and above all, the seizing of women. The testosterone level of the male is 20 times that of the female for a reason, as are all the ratios of nature. That overwhelming sex drive of the male must be directed toward women of their own folk.

The United States was created by the Adepts. The plan was encoded in the novel The New Atlantis by Sir Francis Bacon. At least 53 of the 56 signers of The Declaration of Independence, on 7-4 or July 4, were Masonic Adepts. But when the Sons of Muspell took over the new nation, within just a few years the true Adepts tried another tactic. In the early 1800’s they formed a new religion now called Mormonism. The original Mormon religion in many ways conformed to Natural Law, particularly in that it was restricted to our folk, and it taught polygamy. But the Sons of Muspell would not allow a religion that might preserve our kind, so they first banned polygamy by law, knowing that sexual-lust is the mother of battle-lust and battle-lust is the mother of nations. Next they promoted the 19th Amendment to the Constitution, giving women the vote. Finally a Son of Muspell named Kurtz, the head of the Treasury Department of the U.S. Government, told the Mormons to racially integrate or the I.R.S. would seize their church property. So, because its men were castrated by anti-polygamy laws and the “liberation” of women, the Mormons caved in. Just one example of why a religion of the folk must promote the male sex drive. A man will fight to the death to keep the harem he dominates.

Anonymous said...

Ok! There are some really wierd nuts out there.

Oh whoops, WE are some really wierd nuts and there are some even wierder ones coming!

Anonymous said...

Good to see you back Jay!

Anonymous said...

About these fringe groups,I suspect
the Florida,and Chatanooga groups,you are referring to dont include the families mentioned in the anonymous post?All these families Trenholm,Allred,Musser,Wooley Naylors,are longtime old fundamental stock,in southeast by way of Missouri.I mean they are not the
group you are tracking Jay?These folks are not very hard to find.

Georgia girl said...

Yeah,the Trenholms own the 3 largest cattle ranches in North East Georgia,and also a large farm in east Tennesee.not exactly "living on the run"I dont think
the whole family are polygamists,either.I know some of the kids.

Men In Black said...

The woman I interviewed was linked to WWASP a boot camp for troubled teens, with the funding partners based out of LaVerkin Utah and St. George Utah. The connection was obscure, but the other issue brought her to us.

Because she was recruited and not born into the sect, it was difficult to verify her information. The question of why Warren might be interested in such independents was nagging at me and other than an interesting story, it was incomplete.

Something else occured in Florida, that put it up on the radar. Then a delayed release by the FBI in their flier and naming Leesburg, brought back much of the story I had heard several months ago. I had to confer with FJ because we both interviewed this victim.

Her group seperate from the Jeffs trained her in committing suicide. She went from bright colored clothing, though long and conservative to drab with less color, claiming the new Jeffs group required this more drab dress code. There were several dozen points made, but as a recruit she had no family inside or a traceable last name.

The White Revolution Movement and former WCOTC were links by member association, rather than overt connections. Its unclear how linked some of these fringe groups are, but they know who Warren is and are not willing to dialog to much as to whether the two are linked or involved at some level. The relationship of polygamy to extreme right wing groups as they are refered to, includes published arguments and some of these parallel Warren's teachings. So any time groups with common themes are seen in the same geographic areas, there becomes room to ponder a posible link.

If the FLDS get involved in running rural boot camps for troubled teens, I will start looking side ways at WWASP and a connection to Lichfield and associates by the same scrutny. In Leesburg, its not Matt Hale as he is incarcerated, but rather his followers who like Jeffs buy into a huge government conspiracy, using both religion and local militia's to organize. Leesburg has more than just retiree's living there!


onthestreet said...

MIBBY: The Malkhut is the boot-camp said...

you make for interesting research. We just stumbled onto this site. I thank you for the work you have done.

fttc said...


I think the darkness of warren's mind makes him capable of following any course. But I find some of your "unclear links" almost as bizzarre as Street's efforts to prove the truth by rearrangement of letters in words. But hey! go prove me wrong.

Warren is on the run. I have recently been reveiwing the cicumstances surrounding Joseph Smith's martyrdom. It is scary how many things warren's believers can cite as being similar. Of course warren has arranged most of the points either through his claims and teachings or through acts he has committed which have placed him in the same situation with the law that JS was accused of. The great difference is that JS was not guilty and had not committed the crimes. Warren is and has.

Anonymous said...

Warren's latest location?

One half of a telephone conversation was recently overheard between a mother and her son (believed to be one of Warren's bodyguards)wherein the location of the son was disclosed. The mother asked,"So is your brother in Denver with you?"

If two of Warren's bodyguards are/were in Denver, then perhaps Warren was/is there as well.

Anonymous said...

Why tell the blog about it? If people know anything about his location, why not tell LE privately and not let it be known?

Men In Black said...

Good point! Then I should ask, how many in Colorado City and Hildale saw that Dark Blue Suburban late Saturday night??? A bigger question might be how bad does the FBI want Warren or is some one hoping he will flee the country???

Turn this over to skip tracer bounty hunters and it will be over with, leave it in the hands of the FBI and we will play more of follow that car! Taking Warren may have a potential for conflict, but if not LE then, how about Duane Chapman "The Dog" Bounty Hunter, we can even film it for TV!

Catching Warren has become a joke! Why was he not nabbed Saturday Night? Lets hand this over to the pro's, but unless a huge TV episode $10,000. is chump change to a team of 6-10 bounty hunters!

Men In Black said...

Its true Warren has created circumstances that are similiar to that of Joseph Smith. I differ on the point of posible guilt however. The mob as it was refered to was made up of both outsiders and former mormons of that day. The burning of the Nauvoo Expositor news and press was ordered in a city council meeting of which Joseph was the Mayor. The newspaper was owned by the Law brothers and destroying it, was considered an act of high treason, given it had only been 68 years since the revolutionary war of 1776. It was an extreme to censoring free speech. To understand that time you need to read the witness statements of both sides for the Mormon Wars of 1838, this can be done by reading Senate Document 189 of Missouri. You can read it by going to
You delude yourself if you say Joseph Smith was guilty of nothing! Records from those favorable to him and against him make up a history that can not be covered up or forgotten today, but yes both are similiar.

fttc said...

If I recall the history correctly Joseph appeared twice in court to answer to the removal of that libel press. A press whose whole purpose was to stir up trouble for the mormons. Both times he was vindicated by the court. Even the governor of the state acknowledged that JS was innocent when he asked him to come to Carthage. I know you will say I am deluded by "mormon" historians but the truth will prevail.

fttc said...

I didn't say JS was guilty of nothing. I said he was not guilty of the crimes he was accused of and martyred for. He was brought into court some 52 times and not once was he found guilty of a crime. (warren thinks HE's persecuted?)

JS was a man and as such was subject to mistakes and the frailties of a man. I have never thought he was perfect.

Anonymous said...

If they do catch him, where in the world are they going to find a jury of his "peers"?

onthestreet said...

Hey, MenInBlack as midnight, you might want to reconsider the validity of your "evidence" against the Prophet Joseph.

Page 43 says: "Hiram Smith was not in Far West at the time, and (I) think he was not in the country..."

Then page 44 says: "Joseph Smith, jr., Sidney Rigdon and Hiram Smith, who compose the first presidency were there." Can't have it both ways.

Georgia dweller said...

Fttc.?you come fron old polygamous/fundamentalists stock?I seem to get that impression,I would like to know if you know or have heard of any polygamists of Mormon/Flds type living in state of Ga?Exepct for the small colony centered around the Trenholm ranch,several families affiliated with the Missourri Groups.I am asking because M.I.B. started this blog off about G.A.polygamists hiding and helping warren.and after one week of searching the web,calling G.A. authorities,Exept for the tiny Naylor group,I still cant find any evidence on the alledged Pro-Warren fringe-racist groups M.I.B. alluded too.I maintain it is ridiculous to accuse polygamists of the Naylor type of being sympathetic to,or helping Flds in anyway.
M.I.B.has never explained himself clearlry on this Subject of "Fringe Groups"I dont doubt he had contact with the florida lady,but to accuse the Naylor colony as being racist and dangerous fringe group is unjust.especially to the people who know them.

Anonymous said...

Yeah M.I.B. has always long on rumor and inuendo,very short on hard concrete facts that will hold up before a judge.Jay does do some good keeping the blog interesting,but take his "Facts and
fringe groups"with a grain of salt.I know the Naylors-Trenholm-Mussers in Nort-East Ga., are a quiet peacable folk who are in an uncomfortable,probably unwanted focus right now.These folk have
nothing to do with Warren and any "Racist Fringe Group"who may be aiding and anetting him.

Gentile Observer said...

I think M.I.B was reffering to ties between Warrens Flds and WCOTC racist church based in Leesburg,Florida,Not any branch of the Trenholm/Musser polygamist clan also located in N.Georgia.M.I.B was probably not even aware of the Trenholms

fttc said...


I do come from old polygamist stock. I do not know much about the polygamist groups in the east. I knew some of those who came from the Guy Musser group and moved to Missouri. Other than that I can't help you. I get the idea that MIB fancies himself somewhat of a bounty hunter. He keeps making statements that have a thread of truth to them. Perhaps he is fishing for more info. I don't know. I haven't figured him yet. I would take what he says with about a pound of salt.

Georgia Dweller said...

FTTC.Thanks for the info.The lady I spoke with in Georgia,was a grandaughter
of Guy Musser,married into the Trenholm,family.I cant possibly believe any of these people would be helping Warren or his supporters.Can you?

onthestreet said...

Everyone helps the Prophet Warren: Loyal FLDS, LDS, Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, all governments, churches, cities, nations, institutions, agencies, heaven, earth, and hell. You are ALL his staunchest supporters, like it or lump it.

mugwump said...

If you're a prophet, speak for yourself. And if, like Warren, that which you prophesy does not come true, you are no prophet, and neither is he. That is the test of a Prophet.

I John 2:18-19

18. "Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19.They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. KJV

onthestreet said...

Oh, but it is true. "Everything worketh together for the good of them who love the Lord." That is a prophecy of your Redeemer, Jesus Christ. I do not think that you purposely call the Christ himself the antichrist.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone in the Georgia group drive a red Dodge Dooly?

onthestreet said...

How about a red heafer?

mugwump said...

Heifers are offered as sacrifice:
Gen. 15:9; Nu. 19:2; De. 21:3; Heb.9:13

The only reference to color is Nu. 19:2 but, what is your point?

onthestreet said...

Ahh, so you must ask? You don't know? That tells it all.

mugwump said...

I know but evidently you don't because you didn't 1.) give reference or 2.) make your point

What's your point?

Georgia dweller said...

Anonymous said does anyone in the Georgia group drive a red dodge Dooly?
Not that I know of,Have you seen vehicles with Ga.plates around known Flds hangouts?

Anonymous said...

Georgia dweller said...
Anonymous said does anyone in the Georgia group drive a red dodge Dooly?
Not that I know of,Have you seen vehicles with Ga.plates around known Flds hangouts?

YEP....Several months back.

fttc said...

Anon 1:20

Can you tell where it was seen. I know CC gets a lot of traffic from accross the country due to its proximity to Zion Nat. Park and the Grand Canyon. I don't think unless you are seeing the Ga. vehicles in prominent driveways you can speculate they are connected.

Georgia Dweller said...

Hmm,makes me wonder if some Warrenites havent taken up residence in Ga.I dont think any of the known Georgia {Missouri-related} group,would be anymore welcome in C.C.than a Gentile.I think the FLDS regard these people as apostates?FTTC,is this not correct?

Georgia Dweller said...

Anonymous,How long ago was this?Was this in Colorado City?or El-Dorado?Georgia license plates have the county on the bottom,under the letters,please take note of the county, if you see any more
vehicles with Georgia plates.Thanks.

Gentile Georgian said...

I offer this hypothesis about Flds in Georgia.North Ga.{Atlanta}is in a very fast growing
building boom at present,Since many
Flds are in the building trades ,posssibly some are just there working.As for a permanent enclave
in the Texas site,forget it.real estate is just too expensive.The Trenholms are large landowners in mountainous north ga.
and own several large cattle ranches,but they have been in Ga.since 1944 when land was much cheaper.I believe the Mussers
Wooleys,Allreds and Naylor and the other Missouri families are mostly Trenholm inlaws
and employees.These are definitely not "United Order"type of Mormons.
Joseph Trenholm personally told me "I wouldnt give, or sell a foot of my land to any of those Jeffs People"

fttc said...


All of the families in Missouri that came from the Short Creek area that I am aware of were considered apostates clear back in the eighties. I don't think any of them would be very welcome into warren's flock. I also think warren would have to be a lot more desperate than he is now to even consider asking them for assistance.

fttc said...

I think gentile has the right idea for the connection provided there is one.

onthestreet said...

Straining at gnats and swallowing a camel.

mugwump said...

How about being surrounded by truth, but believing a lie.

onthestreet said...

Right, Muggy. You rados are getting surrounded by truth, Texas style.

ATAR_i said...

Interesting, is there someONE with jeffs who is persuasive enough, or is there someTHING that might persuade those from Georgia to help out in some way.

onthestreet said...

Still straining, Tar? Desperation has its own smell, and Tarjam is very persuasive in helping others flee from her by the very poignancy and repulsion of the stench. Of course, bathing helps, and especially the baptism of the soul. Then you will be sweet, sweet, sweet.

mugwump said...

Are you hearing voices again bots?

ATAR_i said...

He's so disgusting - it just doesn't work.

onthestreet said...

Right! It does NOT work, and why:

"Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts. (Zech. 7:12)

mugwump said...

arrogance is one of the traits of Anti-christ Revelation 13:5-6. Look it up.

onthestreet said...


Nowheresville, USA: Where feeling a little bit lost means you're ...
God's Arrogance? 2000. Often, in my youth, I thought smugly to myself, "Sure, God's big and
perfect and everything, but isn't it rather arrogant of Him to ...

Panels focusing on Thor and Firebird deal with the Thunder God's arrogance, nobility, and
immortality. His decision made in a haste borne of logic and ... reviews/99941044116511.htm

Obscure Theological Questions - Brunching UBB...I haven't got a lot to say on the issue of God's
"arrogance". Come on people.

Hippie conception of God
... i've recently come across a comentary on the whole "God's Arrogance" that applies to the
whole "i need to be worshiped" thing...check it:

You see, even God is considered ARROGANT by millions. So what of it if you consider my quoting of his Word arrogant. What's arrogant is to try to refute God!!!

mugwump said...

How can God be arrogant? If HEe created earth, the planets, the solar system and even lizards and hummingbirds anything HE has to say IS. When you own it you hold title and ability to commend and condemn. Nothing arrogant about that, it's simply exercising ownership rights. GOD does not consult any pollster to determine HIS OWN course of action.

Anonymous said...

I don't think God has to hold a committee, pardon me, priesthood council, to enact His Will.

onthestreet said...

Ahh, but why then does he speak of "joint-heirs" with Jesus Christ, and why does he say: "I the Lord doeth NOTHING except that I reveal it through my servants the Prophets? He both shares ownership and enacts his will through them.

Strike two, you're both out. It only takes one strike to prove your errors and your follies. But the, as long as you're learning, you have hope.

polywatchin said...

God still does what he wants. Joint heirs just means that we get to share the inheritance with Christ, God's Son.

mugwump said...

An heir has a future expectation. An heir has a current identification.

Willy nilly that

onthestreet said...

Who "we" white-boy? Only the obedient, those who bring forth fruit of the loin and of the spirit abundantly, that God may have eternal increase, become heirs. All else, Jesus says, are only theive trying to break in, and getting cast out.

Mugs, there is no faith or just expectation to anyone who fights God is his creating and bringing forth of little children, that they may come unto Him. There is no current identification of heirs outside of the Brotherhood clearly identified by the Chief Heir himself. Do you need the Lord's references AGAIN, or do they not please you?

onthestreet said...

fights God IN his creating (sorry)

mugwump said...


I am amazed, your obsession with sex, procreation, plural wives etc. It is against everything I believe regarding the sanctity of marriage. I revered my mother, my aunts, my sisters, my girl cousins, my many girl who were, and are friends, my sweethearts, and most of all, my wife. Is she perfect? She's as perfect as I tend to be. We are each one half of a whole.

I couldn't provide for additional wives or children and I refuse to allow blood of my blood become wards of the state. I am their father and am responsible for their maintenance and teaching of the ways of the Lord. How? By example of Christ in me. Is it easy? Absolutely not, I am as human as anyone and therefore sinful.

The difference is this: I know Jesus Christ died for MY SIN. I have studied HIS WORD all my life. In spite of my sinful nature HE is Just and willing to forgive. I trust in that statement and have no fear of tomorrow. Why? Because I'm not in control, the Lord is and he's a perfect pilot.

onthestreet said...

MUGGY: 9/01/2005 11:14 AM

You say: "I am amazed, your obsession with sex, procreation, plural wives etc. It is against everything I believe regarding the sanctity of marriage."

One who has refused to marry, "obsessed with sex, procreation, plural wives"??? See the folly, Mug. It is the extreme of what you call non-sense. Now, as for yourself, you just now spoke of your sweetheartS and your wife. Shame on you. Shouldn't your wife be your sweetheart, yet you have many. Furthermore, do you have sex with her? Now that sounds very much like "an obsession". As for the FLDS, they are commanded of the Lord to "LEAVE THOSE GIRLS ALONE", when they marry them. Not much of a sexual pervert complex there, is there. You pervert yourself and your dear wife, and rape her, because you can, because it is legal, because you claim her, own her, possess her, and all that you have been charging the FLDS with, overflowing in your consciousness until it is ONE BIG OBSESSION.

You say: "I couldn't provide for additional wives or children." Well put. You are not fit to father so many, and the Lord quite capable and in his right to use whatever industries and governments he chooses to care for all the children that he creates. Maybe you're just bawling about it because you can't even afford to pay your taxes. Well, get a job, or a better job. Christ is only willing to forgive the repentant who are meek and lowly of heart.

mugwump said...

Ole' sweetie streetie,

At least I had friends who were girls, I had sweethearts prior to my marriage. I respected their person and their chastity. I did something that you have not, by your own admission done. I married, we (together) had children. We (together) are parents to those children. We watched the grow into productive adults and pass the same love that they were given on to their children. Their children know what true love is- - - -they've seen it demonstrated by their parents and grandparents. Did we rear the children in that manner to gain brownie points on the balance scales of life. Absolutely not. We don't have anything to prove.

Christ died for my sins, my wife's sin, my children's sin and my grandchildren's sin. He died, ONCE for all. None of us aspire to become a god. The first of the Ten Commandments explains just what the focus of our worship should be.

I have friends who have gone through life in a constant state of misery. Why? They have been doing everything in their power to impress the world and to impress God with their goodness and how many good things that they have accomplished. How sad, one slip up and their pile of good works tumbles down. They suddenly realize that they aren't "spiritual" enough so they go back to the old task of creating a building, on a beach, grand enough for God to want to own. Then the hurricane of life smashes their dream down to rubble. I've said it before, I'll continue to say it again and again. MY salvation is not of myself, it is a GIFT of GOD.

I can see you chewing your tounge in anger allready.

onthestreet said...

So why are you angry? No need to be angry over your gift from God, for you indeed may gain a salvation in a lower kingdom if you have not condoned the murder of a child of God. In which case, you will go into outer darkness.

Only the highest kingdom is for those who aspire to become gods, like their Father, for Jesus said: "Be ye perfect, even as your Father in Heaven is perfect".

What proper child does not yearn for Zion, to become like their father?

mugwump said...

Anger doesn't express my feelings. It's more like gross disgust. A supposedly intelligent group of people have allowed themselves to be totally brainwashed by a "priessthood" of good ol' boys who fear excommunication from Jeffs. they could easily remove Jeffs from his position. He gained the position by assuming power upon the death of his father. He was ordained, supoedly, by his own brother and not sits as the head of sheeple who have given him all their material wealth and goods. He is at the leadership of the effort to build for himself a shrine outside of my town. He has at least one supporter on this blog who's contributions are those of an individual with an obviously deranged mind.

This marvelous profit (intential) is on the run from the law, facing multiple indictments in Arizona. He is being sought by the U.S. Government for flight to avoid prosecution for those crimes. His guilt or innocence will be established as he goes to trial. At least then, boths sides of the story will be made public.

This man is also a party, who by default, has been found at fault of the crime of sodomizing his five year old nephew.

You ask about my anger? Isn't my disgust, as a citizen seeking justice, enough for me to express absolute disgust with the way Jeffs and his loyal band of followers have secluded themselves and hidden him. Just what has he and his cronies provided to his shepple?

onthestreet said...

Ahh, so it IS anger. Truth alas.

mugwump said...

Is Yorick your buddy? I thought Hamlet held his skull and exclaimed alas. KJV of street's famous nonsense. You wouldn't know or recognize truth if it came in the form of a ten ton truck headed toward you at 100 mph.

onthestreet said...

Ahh, there is truth in the air, but what is truth?

onthestreet said...

Tis the culmination and the sanctuary, the solemn assembly, of all the elements of an entity or an issue, as the center of the tree or the heart of the matter. It is the vision. When Jesus astounded Pilot when he answered his question: "What is Truth", he showed him the vision of the culmination.

mugwump said...

Or in simple language. Truth is the state of being faithful; something that is true, or is held to as being true; a relationship, conformity, or agreement with fact or reality or among true facts or propositions; abstract truth as personified as God.

These but scratch the surface of Webster's defination. The whole is two column inches wide and is approximately 9 1/2 inches in length.

"Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." Truth shines "light" into all recesses and discovers falsehoods.

Jesus said: "I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no man commeth to the Father but by me."

onthestreet said...

That's it, Muggy. NO MAN (or woman), cometh but by the Savior, through his body. And what is the Body of Christ? It is his church. If you neglect or abuse his anointed in each generation, "Ye do it unto me," saith the Lord.

Paul: "And how can ye hear without a preacher", or one authorized of heaven to administer in the ordinances thereof?

Without that, your are just LOST.
"And Satan SHALL deceive the whole world."

God knew that Satan would deceive THE WHOLE WORLD (had already deceived the whole world.

(KJV Luke 17:20-21). Christ has always taught that the Kingdom is NOT OF THIS WORLD, but an antichrist WILL DECEIVE THE WHOLD WORLD (Revelation 12:9)...

6. To Deceive the whole world... not to appear until after the "rebellion" (NIV) or "falling away" of apostasy (1890), to appear as a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon" (Revelation 13:11).

mugwump said...

I think I prefer my loving pastor to your sodomizing prophet. Wow! what an example of love.

onthestreet said...

Who anointed him? And if you only knew what he does behind closed doors, even against YOU.

mugwump said...

Who said he needed to be anointed? Joe Smith? Except among mormons he has no influence.

mugwump said...

It's very strange that you didn't attack my claim that Jeffs is a sodomizer. Great legacy. Maybe you heard about the court's award to the child who was victim of Jeffs abuse. What a wonderful example to children.

onthestreet said...

Out of the abundance of the heart, one who continuously dwells on sodomy, the mouth speaketh and bespeaketh the very soul of the accusers.

onthestreet said...

mugwump said... Who said he needed to be anointed? Joe Smith? Except among mormons he has no influence. 9/07/2005 9:07 PM

Yes, the god and demons of this world have the influence over you.

In Jesus' raising of Lazarus from the dead and His anointing with perfume, by Him REQUIRED IT, the Lord's servants were not to imperil their lives...

So we know the anointing or Christ IS THE SPIRIT of God. ...

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth IN YOU.

Psalms 2: The Reign of the LORD'S Anointed - Bible kjv -
Psalms 2: The Reign of the LORD'S Anointed. ... THE REIGN OF THE LORD'S ANOINTED. Psa 2:1 Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? ...

The Watchman Expositor: Accountability - "Touch not mine anointed, and do my prophets no harm" (KJV). ... 24:6 "TOUCH NOT THE LORD'S ANOINTED"

Bible Kjv ...for who can stretch forth his hand against the Lord's anointed, and be guiltless? ... because ye have not kept YOUR MASTER, THE LORD'S ANOINTED. ...

onthestreet said...

Do you STILL say the anointing of the Lord "IS NOT NEEDED"?

ATAR_i said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ATAR_i said...

Well, at least muggy isn't *into sodomy*. We might continuously bring up the fact that your 'prophet' is a sodomite - but that's his (and frankly your) problem - NOT OURS.

So, if you can go so far as to say that we are all 'baby killers' (though we are not) because our - meaning YOURS and mine - countries high court has stated it's legal. Then we can most assuredly freely call you all sodomites since your personal leader is a sodomite.

mugwump said...

When the point is made that Warren Jeffs IS a sodomite, you attempt to divert attention away from that FACT and then place blame for all the ills in your own home (FLDS) on those on the outside who have learned of the duplicity of your persona. Man, you're one mixed up guy! Or, should it be, man, you're one mixed up gay?

atar_i is 100% right, your sexual perversions are YOUR PROBLEM.

Go get a real life.

Anonymous said...

You're all wrong and I think you're putting God in your own image.

Just take a minute, and try not to justify your wickedness, and then maybe you can get .00000000000001% on who God really is.
But.... probably not. You'd have to quit liying to yourself first.

Mercy cannot rob Justice and vice-versa.

onthestreet said...

Tar: You say Muggy is not into sodomy? Oh, but he is, big time. That's the point. There is no anointing when evil is present. And to say that you are not sodomites or baby-killers "because a group of sodomites and killers within a court okayed the practice", and allow sodomy to run rampant in America, how shaky indeed is your position. Then most assuredly you are all both sodomites and killers since your personal leaders are both. As for the Prophet, he has cast men out for such practices, by the hundreds. The accusation of sodomy is from the son of a sexually perverted brother whom he also cast out for that evil against our women and children, or the threat of it.

"I the Lord do not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance", nor does his prophet.

Column: Save Our Sex Law: Sodomy must be rampant out there. Right after THE SUPREME COURT RULED the sodomy law violated the state constitution's guarantee of privacy

...anal punishments is surely among the psychic sources of much of the fear and hatred of homosexuality and of SODOMY RAMPANT IN THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT

Political Animal: Comment on Your Constitutional Right to Sodomy
"Stanley Kurtz's pathetic attempt last month to argue that anti-sodomy laws are a necessary bulwark against RAMPANT HETEROSEXUAL ADULTERY". ... mt/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=1203

ATAR_i said...

Anon - you'll just have to explain yourself more. It's not like we haven't heard 'I'm right, and everyone else is wrong' before. Of course 'I know God better than you' is popular on this blog as well, and finally 'you're the one who is wicked' is just plain standard here.

You're just going to have to get more specific.

For instance my post. OTS states that we are all killers because abortion is legal (he doesn't include himself in this, I can't figure out why since he is a citizen of the US as well).

I merely stated that making me a 'baby killer' because of a supreme court decision is like me making him a sodomite because his leader is a sodomite.

Now, am I wrong to make this comparison to exploit the poor logic of his faulty thinking - or is ots's faulty thinking wrong?

How did I justify my wickedness?
How did I put God in my image?
How does this how that I don't know God - or that you do?
How am I lying to myself?
How did mercy rob justice in my post?
How did justice rob mercy in my post?

If you aren't more concise and clear - I get left with all these questions after reading your post. So really, your post can contribute nothing if it doesn't say anything other than 'I know better', 'I am better', 'You are bad'. You just have to do better than that.

ATAR_i said...

How do you know who my personal leader is - I have not told you?

Oh yeah - your right I did. It's God. Hmmm, last I knew he wasn't a baby killer OR a sodomite.

onthestreet said...

Tar: No need to explain. Your posts have answered all the questions you now pose nakedly. We can surely go back and innumerate them. You come out in support of abortion, and then you have the gaul to claim God as your leader. There is no sence in explaining to the senseless who are hell-bent on their crimes, and call it WOMENS' CHOICE, or the "RIGHT TO PRIVACY" TO SODOMIZE.

If you have voted in any American election, you have chosen YOUR LEADERS, have you not? But it is the support of the rights to those things that makes you the sodomite and a murderer. Yet, you claim that only God is your leader. Sounding more and more like the FLDS folks. Mission accomplished.

YOU WANT "CONCISE AND CLEAR"? Try this ("So What If" thread): This makes it pretty clear, girl.

STREET Said: Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold, it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen. 8/28/2005 6:53 PM

ATAR_i said... Your quoting words you believe to be divine that I DON'T believe to be divine. Better luck next time.

mugwump said...


I think that ots is a shyster lawyer. He doesn't believe anything he or anyone else says. His whole purpose is to evade truth. He never answers a question except with an accusation. He never admits the remote possibility that there is any error in his argument. When caught in a lie, he back tracks, takes another route and hopes that he has thrown his opposition off course. Of course, I'm still trying to get him to furnish any proof of any of his quotes from Mormon leadership, especially JS and WJ or from any other source except that of their own mouth. He furnishes no Biblical word of prophesy, no artifacts, no architectual evidence, DNA of no tribe of American Indian matches that of Jews, no record of them and their dearture from Jerusalem under Babylonian siege. Also, the gross errors in Momon, i.e. the fact that Jerusalem is named as the birthplace of Jesus and many other previously listed.

ATAR_i said...

You voted or did you abdicate and let others choose? Either way It's YOUR GOVERNMENT TOO.

And, I'll just date myself a little here. I didn't have the right to vote when Roe vs. Wade came down - soooooo, I had nothing to do with that one - or picking the leaders and voting for the justices who would pick the supreme court who would make that decision.

I am wearing clothes - shame on you for thinking of my naked.

We have discussed abortion - and I have done more to stop abortion than you have - I win solidly on this issue.

Your other words make no sense.

onthestreet said...

Ahh, you confess "No sense". No vision, you perish. You claim innocence regarding womens' rights, yet you rape your spouse in the name of luv and marage. You blast away against the bringing forth of life, like a pharthing horse's behind on the runs. You seek a sign to PROOVE your own vanity. Therefore, the Lord will give you a sign.

mugwump said...

Define rape.

Define sodomy.

Define any kind of sexual activity between two persons of the same sex who have grown beyone the era of childish curiousity.

Define incest.

Define beastiality.

onthestreet said...

Dwell on your own corruption, and wallow in it. Pearls are not cast before swine.

ATAR_i said...

We are judged by our own actions - not by the actions of others.

mugwump said...

Here piggy, piggy, piggy. Have some more of Warren and Joseph's slop. Nice piggy.

onthestreet said...

So right, Atar.
Hey Mug! See, I AM (nice), by your own admission, and guess what? I bring home the bacon.

Hey Tar, slop some of that tar Mug's way. If he can't digest real food, he'll have to settle for tar.

ATAR_i said...

I'm sure mugsy is just fine all on his own, so am I.

and YOU ARE (nuts).

mugwump said...

Your bacon has been cooked and you are suffering from "heat exhaustion."

onthestreet said...

God dwells in eternal burnings.

mugwump said...

I think your bacon got incinerated in the process.

onthestreet said...

Praise the Lord for "burnt" offerings. No, it's not the burnt toast that your wife gives you in the morning.

mugwump said...

See Hebrews 10:4

onthestreet said...

Hebrews 10:1. Learn to start at the beginning, for that is where you have to start before you've ever got a start:

10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

See, those sacrifices are only archtypes of the sacrifices you must make AFTER the blood of the Lamb. I've already qualified that (statement on burnt offerings), by saying it is not a literal burning. It is allegorical and esoteric. Do you understand?

mugwump said...


I like this translation better: I'll quote the entire passage.

Hebrews 10:1 - 4

1. Since the law has [only] a shadow of the good things to come, and not the actual form of those realities, it can never perfect the worshipers by the same sacrifices they continually offer year after year.

2. Otherwise wouldn't they have stopped being offered, since the worshipers, once purified, would no longer have any consciousness of sins?

3. But, in the sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.


It is the shed blood of Jesus Christ that takes away ALL our sin.

If Christ has taken ALL our sins upon him, why are further safrifices necessary?

Sacrifices, in the manner presented to fulfill Hebrew Law were totally fulfilled by the Gift of Love God provided to US by allowing Jesus, His Only Begotten Son's to die upon the cross, as our perfect sacrifice. Additional sacrifice is totally unnecessary.

God wants our Lives to reflect His love toward others. We are no longer under the Mosaic Law therefore the burning of sacrifice is no longer a requirement to obtain forgivness.

onthestreet said...

You say: "If Christ has taken ALL our sins upon him, why are further safrifices necessary"?

Because you Lord Himself said that without grace and works, ye are nothing. Grace and works together, or else you have no marriage. Now do you see the trick and the deception the devil casts upon men, and they upon others? With this, says the Lord, "He shall deceive the whole world?.

Christ further commanded that his disciples "SACRIFICE all things for the excellency of the glory of God."

Do you really hate the Lord, and His Word?

onthestreet said...

Now, let's take a second look at your very quote (above). Verse three says:

3. But, in the sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.

See, it doesn't REPLACE the higher sacrifice, it compliments it. The marriage is required, or else you have not feast, but starve and pass away.

onthestreet said...

It keeps us in remembrance to sacrifice our all unto him. Yet, those daily sacrifices "cannot take away the sin". It is when those sacrifices of the gross or earthly things are JOINED with the purity of the blood and spirit of the Lamb, that you have a completed circuit in you, by which the spirit may flow to you very extremities. Without a circuit, there is darkness, see?

mugwump said...

Grace is God's gift. Faith is demonstrated by works.

Ephesians 2:8-9

James 2:18

If I am in the darkness as you suggest, how am I able to find and know passages of true scripture to prove my faith. I trust in God for His Grace. Salvation is of God, not of man. God is no man. That is a convenient illusion invented by JS to gain a following.

onthestreet said...

Devils can quote scripture, and DO.
"Salvation is of the Jews".

Your Lord said it>

Do we not call him our Father? Are not fathers men? Did not Jesus come to earth as a man. Is he not God also?

God IS a man. Your "religion" and faith are vain, for you fanticise in falsehoods.

mugwump said...

God is a spirit, and they who worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth, for the father seeketh such as will worship him.

For God so loved the world that he sent His Only Begotten Son, that whosoever should believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son to condemn the world, but that the world might be saved.

You worship a religion, I worship Allmighty God, creator of heaven and earth.

Name for me, in all your wisdom just one Mormon god-man who graduated to own his own universe.
Now prove it. Joe's halucinations don't cut it. They will not be accepted as valid references.

God is, God was, God ever will be, you and I live only in the moment but, my trust in God Allmighty has assured me of a future with Him. Can you make that claim?

onthestreet said...

There you go again, just enumerating scripture that doesn't even apply to the issue, the question at hand. Of course God is a spirit. So are you. Are you not a man.

Grow up, my boy, and be a man. How can you worship the Lord while denying His Word? You can't fool anybody, except yourself.

mugwump said...

I worship God continously. You are obtaining your solace from a false gospel, manufatured by an evil genius for the purpose of creating a group of people to be his "sheeple." JS surely had the mark of the beast. I think it was a dollar sign. Bet he's taking fire and brimstone baths right now, and you are waiting in line for the next available shower.

Who created Adam from the dust? Was it Adam? Who created Eve from Adam's rib? Adam? Who created the Garden of Eden? Adam? Who placed the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden? Adam? Who passed judgement upon the couple when he found them in the garden trying to hide their nakedness? Adam? Who died a natural death at age 930 years? Adam did. If God was Adam, why was Adam subject to God?

If the Allmighty God of Creation created all there is, why he have three parts of the same person? Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Still one, but three persons in one, each serving a distinct purpose. God was not man, He was God.

onthestreet said...

MUGGY (9/16/2005 10:20 AM):
Ahh, you call my words "genius", do you. It is the Lord that works miraculously, not me or mighty moe. Elohim is the eminator. Yehovah is the creator. Michael is the former. Joseph the maker. Kick that around for awhile.

Michael is our God, which was Adam, BUT there is more: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit. Then, holy men are gods over their families, those who are faithful and true. They are ONE in purpose and likeness, having the crown of Grace.

Grace is one, Wisdom two, Understanding three, Mercy four, Judgement five, Truth six, Victory seven, Splendor eight, Pure Seed nine, and Kingdom ten. As man is, God once was, and as God is, man may become.

mugwump said...

you've got it all counted out huh.

I am glad that God is none of the above. When Moses asked his name:

Genesis 3:14 -I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thy say to the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.

In other places God is refered to in the third person, but in this one instance, when asked who He was the reply was not a third partys name for God, but God's name for himself. The name was neither Michael or Adam.

I guess your answer came via some seance held by old Joe Smith, fraud extraordinaire.

onthestreet said...

Ohh Mugs (9/16/2005 6:39 PM):
You just said that God is NOT graceful, the God of Wisdom, Understanding, Mercy, Judgement, Truth, Victory, Splendor, Purity, and the Head of the Kingdom of God. Who's God is "None of the above"??? I AM THAT I AM is the same Tree of Life. Count the letters, TEN, each for an attribute. This is what created all things, for God is All, which is many, and He has many names. "El" is the Hebrew for "God". Thus, "Micha-el.

mugwump said...

God not graceful? I don't think you will be dancing with HIM.

I have a Bible dictionary too. I could list known names of God, just as you attempted but what would it prove? That I have a bible dictionary.

Personally speaking, "GOD is Love" Agape. Neither eros or phillia, neither passion nor friendship.

Your stupid numerology again. The numbers that appear most often in the Bible are 6 (number of man); 7 (Number of GOD & number of days in a week); 12 (number of apostles, number of the tribes of Israel & number of months in a year [in Hebrew consists of 360 days]); 10 (number of the northern tribes of Israel); 70 (number of years of Judah's Babylonian Captivity); 7 (years of the great tribulation divided into two sections of 3 1/2 years or 1260 days); a vast number known to God (numerical nominclature of theTemple and it's appurtenances); 144,000 (12 (number of Israel's tribes X 12,000 from each tribe) un-numbered masses singing praise to the Lamb of God before the throne.

onthestreet said...

Yes, those are all fine, but they are all part of the decimal numbering system of tens. All creation is based on Tens. Don't you know string theory, and the Law of Tens? Let me help you, child:

Ten Percent Law History - Information on What Is Ten Percent Law. The so-called "ten percent law," also often called the "law of tens" refers to the idea that at each transfer of energy through a trophic structure, ... biology/ten-percent-law-wob.html

LAST WORD -Something called the Law of Tens states that living organisms are able to convert food to energy at a ratio of ten-to-one. That is, eating from a lower...

mugwump said...

Infant Terrible:

Use your science elsewhere. Belief in God requires faith, something that I find lacking in you.

Hide your .com and get a Bible.

I know a tiny bit about how to operate my computer, not a program analysist by any stretch of immagination. If the electricity goes off, and stays off for a period of time my computer will in all probability "Crash." That is to be expected. After all, it's just a machine.

I can read and gain comfort and understanding from my Bible, even if I was disposed to only being able to read it by firelight.

Get one asap, you're gonna' need it!

onthestreet said...

God rules all science, and acts according to eternal law. Again, your theology is a puff of smelly air. No foundation, scientific or theocratic.

onthestreet said...

The Bible is the heavenly science of Life. You turn it into thin tissue.

mugwump said...

Then why do you counterfit it's content? Why did Joe Smith take huge passages of scripture from the Bible and include it as his own?

I guess it just "came to pass."

onthestreet said...

Joseph "took huge passages of scripture from the Bible because that's what was written upon the plates that have been proven to have existed beyond refute, and witnessed by eleven men, one for each chamber. And he made it his own, because the Lord has commanded all men to "take my word unto yourself".

Is it a crime to obey God? He actually obeyed God, see. It actually came to pass.

mugwump said...

Yeah, and I'm Poyeye the Sailor Man.