I find todays Associated Press story to interesting to put down.
SALT LAKE CITY An F-B-I flier says fugitive polygamous sect leader Warren Jeffs may have been sighted in Leesburg, Florida.
Leesburg was among a handful of places where Jeffs has been thought possibly to be hiding. The F-B-I flier says he's possibly accompanied by his bodyguards and some followers,
Leesburg represents two major interest, per the link it is a hot spot for the Extremist group the World Church of The Creator or WCOTC, a group well tracked on the FBI's radar screen. Second, several months ago I speculated about fringe groups in Florida, Georgia and Tennessee who were claiming to be connected to the Jeffs group. Our informant was about 30 miles from Orlando and guess how far Leesburg is from Orlando?
Since I posed this question to Winston, I wonder whether he knew more or less than I did at the time? WCOTC is under the leadership of Matt Hale and certainly this should lift red flags for the Southern Poverty Law Center! Warren is not easily hidden on his own, unless he is being hidden?
Lets talk about those fringe groups again, that claim to be under the Jeffs umbrella. Either afew in the know were not completely honest or this was a well kept secret. Tell me about those that went to Florida after the Hurricane to pick up work! Maybe I'll talk about how these became involved in the fringe Jeffs followers.
Todays story;
http://www.kltv.com/Global/story.asp?S=3736738
MIB
45 comments:
I might speculate that Warren is no longer in Leesburg, but hanging out with a bad crowd. Hold up in a motel, in a humid climate, all sweaty and wondering who he will honor next, by being thier guest!
Northern Georgia and Chattanooga TN are no longer a wise direction. Maybe new friends will offer him a route through the former WCOTC underground?
2003-JAN-8: U.S. District Judge Joan H. Lefkow ruled in 2002-NOV that the W.C.O.T.C., as the TCM was then known, violated the copyright of a Christian organization in Oregon, the Church of the Creator 7 by copying their name. 8 The TCM leader, white supremacist Matt Hale, launched a lawsuit against Judge Lefkow because of her decision. The church web site blasted the judge, using anti-Semitic and racial slurs to urge its white supremacist members to "show the k--- and n----- - loving judge that the jailing of . . . Hale will not stop our Church of the Creator!" On 2003-JAN-8, Hale was arrested and accused of conspiring with another individual between 2002-NOV-29 and DEC-17 to kill Judge Lefkow. U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald said: "Freedom of speech does not include the freedom to solicit murder. The conduct alleged in this indictment is disturbing on many levels, but particularly so because it targeted a judge, whose sworn duty is to apply the law equally and fairly to all who appear before her." 9
2005-FEB-28: Judge Joan Lefkow returned to her home to find her husband Michael Lefkow, 64, and her mother Donna Humphrey, 89, dead in her basement. They had been shot to death. The murders came one month before Matt Hale was scheduled to be sentenced for trying to have the judge killed because of her handling of the 2003-JAN trademark dispute. Authorities are investigating whether the multiple murders were a work of revenge by white supremacists. Hale said on MAR-03 that: "There is no way that any supporter of mine could commit such a heinous crime. I totally condemn it and I want the perpetrator caught and prosecuted...I only hope they sincerely wish to apprehend the animal instead of railroading the innocent. Only an idiot would think I would do this." 10 Police later determined that the mass murders were unrelated to Hale and the Creativity Movement. They suspect a man who was angry at Judge Lefkow's decision in a malpractice case. 11
2005-APR-6: U.S. District Judge James Moody sentenced Matthew Hale to 40 years in jail for soliciting an undercover informant to murder Judge Lefkow. Judge Moody said that this "strikes at the very core of our system of government." 11
Jay you are insane.The polygamist clans in north Ga.Tennesee are branches of the Naylor and Winston Blackmore Groups.They hate Warren and the FLDS,Were persecuted by Rulon Jeffs and the Barlows for generations.Even helped Warrens runaway wife to escape.To claim they are hiding or aiding Warren is the most ridiculous thing you have ever posted here.
Just for the benefit of doubt,Jay the above post refers to the Trenholm,Allred,Wooley and Musser families,not some neo-nazi group who may be claiming affilitiation with a "Jeffs Group"
Well you are wrong about the group I am tracking and I'll bet the FBI takes it serious. In April we interviewed a fleeing victim/informant and were leary of her information. It was detailed and we generated nearly 2 hours of recorded conversation. The location was near Leesburg which had little meaning at the time.
The Florida group was small and did not have traditional roots. They modified their dress code which countered that of the FLDS to fit in. The Florida group was in process of merging with the Tennessee group and I can't talk about those who are in Georgia at this time.
Our victim was recruited after the Florida Hurricane and met durring the damage and cleanup process. The Luis Gonzales case in Sacramento California was an example of the same type of recruitment to a fringe or independent group. The merging with the FLDS is new, but Warren was in the same town and area for a reason, I doubt is was an accident!
Do your own homework!
The trial is being held in the Sacramento County Court House, Department 26 located on H Street. Nancy Cachrane is the Deputy District Attorney for Sacramento County, and is prosecuting this case against Luis Gonzales.
That is the past, but not learning from the past damns many to repeat it in the future. You need to think outside the box, why are independents interested in Warren?
I've researched Matt Hale's writings and still have 500 plus of Warren's audio cassettes and find these two similiar. I know Warren was in Wyoming for a time, but could not lock down his location.
There is enough commonality to allow you and others to tell me I am crazy! If the states and FBI would raise the reward to say $50,000. maybe Flora and I could split it and go where LE has not? If not in Leesburg, where would Warren hide? That specualtion won't get posted here. The faithful read this blog right along with Law Enforcement, but neither spent 2 hours on the phone with someone who was able to detail a Warren loyal group in the same community as noted in that FBI flier.
You follow your belief and let me follow mine. I'm not Anonymous, why are you?
There is a shadow history of conspiracy theorist, that came out of the right wing militia's, many concentrated in Northern Idaho. Polygamy was a common thread, sometimes clearly defined by religion, some times as a means to repopulate the white race. There is much written by government intelligence and my exposure in part came from the CGIA/BATF conferences I have personally attended.
It is a philosophy or mindset of common ground between conservative anti-government groups, which has some linked purposes. A concern no doubt for "homeland security". Disruption serves extremist in opposing camps and that common ground is a concern to some as Warren flee's. Finding another fringe group that accepts polygamy and a right wing ideaology, upset at intervention into religious freedom sets a stage where any number of events could occur.
Knowing where Warren is now, verses where he will eventual hunker down, makes for interesting speculation. The mere fact that he refuses to surrender to authorities, raises a potential toward a violent conflict. Alligning with a pro polygamist does not mean that those hiding him have sworn allegiance to him!
Extremist militia types often stretch reason, but there is no short supply of these. Below an example of what LE must analyze, sympathy from a fanatic can present consequences few here have considered. Go ask someone from the Rand Corporation about home grown terrorist, then get back to me! The US has more to fear on the homeland front, than that of Osama's. Again do your homework, the list of plots are endless and documented online. Think outside the box, Jeffs faithful may not mean what you think! Why did the FBI just put Warren on their MOST WANTED list? From a $10,000. reward to the MOST WANTED! What do you suppose might of occured?
Look at Kehoe's twisted plan, do you think Warren is less of a fanatic?
December 12, 1997
A federal grand jury in Arkansas indicts three men on racketeering charges for plotting to overthrow the government and create a whites-only Aryan People's Republic, which they intend to grow through polygamy. Chevie Kehoe, Daniel Lee and Faron Lovelace are accused of crimes in six states, including murder, kidnapping, robbery and conspiracy. Kehoe and Lee will also face state charges of murdering an Arkansas family, including an 8-year-old girl, in 1996. Kehoe ultimately receives a life sentence on that charge, while Lee is sentenced to death. Lovelace is sentenced to death for the murder of a suspected informant, although in early 2005 he will be up for resentencing because of court rulings. Kehoe's brother, Cheyne, is convicted of attempted murder during a February 1997 Ohio shootout with police and sentenced to 24 years in prison, despite his key role in helping authorities find his fugitive brother in Utah in June 1997 after the shootout. Cheyne went to the authorities after Chevie began talking about murdering their parents and showing sexual interest in Cheyne's wife.
Faithful Woman I have a theory about this, but will not post it here. To many folks are watching and reading this and some take note of who post what. Certiainly Warren's options are decreasing, but that may have other consequences. Money and sincere belief creates loyalty, I suggest that some here are not looking at Warren's full potential as a fleeing felon. Some will help him for reasons beyond their religious belief.
MIB
Say what you will, but a growing movement that has a common thread or history with the early FLDS teachings, still uses polygamy as its arguement today. The White Revolution movement claims over a million members and has several identified links still active in Northern Idaho, dispite the departure of Butler and others. If you read this ideaolgy, then listen to Warren's arguements on audio cassette, they are not that far seperated.
Its abit twisted for normal folk, but to others this may all make perfect sense! by David Lane below of WRM;
Another great danger of the Universalists and their New Age Movement is the feminist movement. Young and healthy societies are male dominated. Decadent, dying societies are feminist. The sex drive of the males of a race that wishes to survive must not be subverted, slandered, hindered, or lessened. In our indigenous religions of the past the male Gods were often depicted with huge erect phallus. This is now ridiculed by the enemies of nature’s God as penis worship or evidence of a fertility religion, which only demonstrates their ignorance or their malice. Fertility is necessary to life. Those out of power raise armies with promises of plunder, revenge, and above all, the seizing of women. The testosterone level of the male is 20 times that of the female for a reason, as are all the ratios of nature. That overwhelming sex drive of the male must be directed toward women of their own folk.
The United States was created by the Adepts. The plan was encoded in the novel The New Atlantis by Sir Francis Bacon. At least 53 of the 56 signers of The Declaration of Independence, on 7-4 or July 4, were Masonic Adepts. But when the Sons of Muspell took over the new nation, within just a few years the true Adepts tried another tactic. In the early 1800’s they formed a new religion now called Mormonism. The original Mormon religion in many ways conformed to Natural Law, particularly in that it was restricted to our folk, and it taught polygamy. But the Sons of Muspell would not allow a religion that might preserve our kind, so they first banned polygamy by law, knowing that sexual-lust is the mother of battle-lust and battle-lust is the mother of nations. Next they promoted the 19th Amendment to the Constitution, giving women the vote. Finally a Son of Muspell named Kurtz, the head of the Treasury Department of the U.S. Government, told the Mormons to racially integrate or the I.R.S. would seize their church property. So, because its men were castrated by anti-polygamy laws and the “liberation” of women, the Mormons caved in. Just one example of why a religion of the folk must promote the male sex drive. A man will fight to the death to keep the harem he dominates.
Ok! There are some really wierd nuts out there.
Oh whoops, WE are some really wierd nuts and there are some even wierder ones coming!
Good to see you back Jay!
About these fringe groups,I suspect
the Florida,and Chatanooga groups,you are referring to dont include the families mentioned in the anonymous post?All these families Trenholm,Allred,Musser,Wooley Naylors,are longtime old fundamental stock,in southeast by way of Missouri.I mean they are not the
group you are tracking Jay?These folks are not very hard to find.
Yeah,the Trenholms own the 3 largest cattle ranches in North East Georgia,and also a large farm in east Tennesee.not exactly "living on the run"I dont think
the whole family are polygamists,either.I know some of the kids.
The woman I interviewed was linked to WWASP a boot camp for troubled teens, with the funding partners based out of LaVerkin Utah and St. George Utah. The connection was obscure, but the other issue brought her to us.
Because she was recruited and not born into the sect, it was difficult to verify her information. The question of why Warren might be interested in such independents was nagging at me and other than an interesting story, it was incomplete.
Something else occured in Florida, that put it up on the radar. Then a delayed release by the FBI in their flier and naming Leesburg, brought back much of the story I had heard several months ago. I had to confer with FJ because we both interviewed this victim.
Her group seperate from the Jeffs trained her in committing suicide. She went from bright colored clothing, though long and conservative to drab with less color, claiming the new Jeffs group required this more drab dress code. There were several dozen points made, but as a recruit she had no family inside or a traceable last name.
The White Revolution Movement and former WCOTC were links by member association, rather than overt connections. Its unclear how linked some of these fringe groups are, but they know who Warren is and are not willing to dialog to much as to whether the two are linked or involved at some level. The relationship of polygamy to extreme right wing groups as they are refered to, includes published arguments and some of these parallel Warren's teachings. So any time groups with common themes are seen in the same geographic areas, there becomes room to ponder a posible link.
If the FLDS get involved in running rural boot camps for troubled teens, I will start looking side ways at WWASP and a connection to Lichfield and associates by the same scrutny. In Leesburg, its not Matt Hale as he is incarcerated, but rather his followers who like Jeffs buy into a huge government conspiracy, using both religion and local militia's to organize. Leesburg has more than just retiree's living there!
MIB
MIB
I think the darkness of warren's mind makes him capable of following any course. But I find some of your "unclear links" almost as bizzarre as Street's efforts to prove the truth by rearrangement of letters in words. But hey! go prove me wrong.
Warren is on the run. I have recently been reveiwing the cicumstances surrounding Joseph Smith's martyrdom. It is scary how many things warren's believers can cite as being similar. Of course warren has arranged most of the points either through his claims and teachings or through acts he has committed which have placed him in the same situation with the law that JS was accused of. The great difference is that JS was not guilty and had not committed the crimes. Warren is and has.
Warren's latest location?
One half of a telephone conversation was recently overheard between a mother and her son (believed to be one of Warren's bodyguards)wherein the location of the son was disclosed. The mother asked,"So is your brother in Denver with you?"
If two of Warren's bodyguards are/were in Denver, then perhaps Warren was/is there as well.
Why tell the blog about it? If people know anything about his location, why not tell LE privately and not let it be known?
Good point! Then I should ask, how many in Colorado City and Hildale saw that Dark Blue Suburban late Saturday night??? A bigger question might be how bad does the FBI want Warren or is some one hoping he will flee the country???
Turn this over to skip tracer bounty hunters and it will be over with, leave it in the hands of the FBI and we will play more of follow that car! Taking Warren may have a potential for conflict, but if not LE then, how about Duane Chapman "The Dog" Bounty Hunter, we can even film it for TV!
Catching Warren has become a joke! Why was he not nabbed Saturday Night? Lets hand this over to the pro's, but unless a huge TV episode $10,000. is chump change to a team of 6-10 bounty hunters!
Its true Warren has created circumstances that are similiar to that of Joseph Smith. I differ on the point of posible guilt however. The mob as it was refered to was made up of both outsiders and former mormons of that day. The burning of the Nauvoo Expositor news and press was ordered in a city council meeting of which Joseph was the Mayor. The newspaper was owned by the Law brothers and destroying it, was considered an act of high treason, given it had only been 68 years since the revolutionary war of 1776. It was an extreme to censoring free speech. To understand that time you need to read the witness statements of both sides for the Mormon Wars of 1838, this can be done by reading Senate Document 189 of Missouri. You can read it by going to http://olivercowdery.com/smithhome/1838Sent.htm
You delude yourself if you say Joseph Smith was guilty of nothing! Records from those favorable to him and against him make up a history that can not be covered up or forgotten today, but yes both are similiar.
If I recall the history correctly Joseph appeared twice in court to answer to the removal of that libel press. A press whose whole purpose was to stir up trouble for the mormons. Both times he was vindicated by the court. Even the governor of the state acknowledged that JS was innocent when he asked him to come to Carthage. I know you will say I am deluded by "mormon" historians but the truth will prevail.
I didn't say JS was guilty of nothing. I said he was not guilty of the crimes he was accused of and martyred for. He was brought into court some 52 times and not once was he found guilty of a crime. (warren thinks HE's persecuted?)
JS was a man and as such was subject to mistakes and the frailties of a man. I have never thought he was perfect.
If they do catch him, where in the world are they going to find a jury of his "peers"?
Fttc.?you come fron old polygamous/fundamentalists stock?I seem to get that impression,I would like to know if you know or have heard of any polygamists of Mormon/Flds type living in state of Ga?Exepct for the small colony centered around the Trenholm ranch,several families affiliated with the Missourri Groups.I am asking because M.I.B. started this blog off about G.A.polygamists hiding and helping warren.and after one week of searching the web,calling G.A. authorities,Exept for the tiny Naylor group,I still cant find any evidence on the alledged Pro-Warren fringe-racist groups M.I.B. alluded too.I maintain it is ridiculous to accuse polygamists of the Naylor type of being sympathetic to,or helping Flds in anyway.
M.I.B.has never explained himself clearlry on this Subject of "Fringe Groups"I dont doubt he had contact with the florida lady,but to accuse the Naylor colony as being racist and dangerous fringe group is unjust.especially to the people who know them.
Yeah M.I.B. has always long on rumor and inuendo,very short on hard concrete facts that will hold up before a judge.Jay does do some good keeping the blog interesting,but take his "Facts and
fringe groups"with a grain of salt.I know the Naylors-Trenholm-Mussers in Nort-East Ga., are a quiet peacable folk who are in an uncomfortable,probably unwanted focus right now.These folk have
nothing to do with Warren and any "Racist Fringe Group"who may be aiding and anetting him.
I think M.I.B was reffering to ties between Warrens Flds and WCOTC racist church based in Leesburg,Florida,Not any branch of the Trenholm/Musser polygamist clan also located in N.Georgia.M.I.B was probably not even aware of the Trenholms
existance.
Georgia
I do come from old polygamist stock. I do not know much about the polygamist groups in the east. I knew some of those who came from the Guy Musser group and moved to Missouri. Other than that I can't help you. I get the idea that MIB fancies himself somewhat of a bounty hunter. He keeps making statements that have a thread of truth to them. Perhaps he is fishing for more info. I don't know. I haven't figured him yet. I would take what he says with about a pound of salt.
FTTC.Thanks for the info.The lady I spoke with in Georgia,was a grandaughter
of Guy Musser,married into the Trenholm,family.I cant possibly believe any of these people would be helping Warren or his supporters.Can you?
Does anyone in the Georgia group drive a red Dodge Dooly?
Anonymous said does anyone in the Georgia group drive a red dodge Dooly?
Not that I know of,Have you seen vehicles with Ga.plates around known Flds hangouts?
Georgia dweller said...
Anonymous said does anyone in the Georgia group drive a red dodge Dooly?
Not that I know of,Have you seen vehicles with Ga.plates around known Flds hangouts?
YEP....Several months back.
Anon 1:20
Can you tell where it was seen. I know CC gets a lot of traffic from accross the country due to its proximity to Zion Nat. Park and the Grand Canyon. I don't think unless you are seeing the Ga. vehicles in prominent driveways you can speculate they are connected.
Hmm,makes me wonder if some Warrenites havent taken up residence in Ga.I dont think any of the known Georgia {Missouri-related} group,would be anymore welcome in C.C.than a Gentile.I think the FLDS regard these people as apostates?FTTC,is this not correct?
Anonymous,How long ago was this?Was this in Colorado City?or El-Dorado?Georgia license plates have the county on the bottom,under the letters,please take note of the county, if you see any more
vehicles with Georgia plates.Thanks.
I offer this hypothesis about Flds in Georgia.North Ga.{Atlanta}is in a very fast growing
building boom at present,Since many
Flds are in the building trades ,posssibly some are just there working.As for a permanent enclave
in Ga.like the Texas site,forget it.real estate is just too expensive.The Trenholms are large landowners in mountainous north ga.
and own several large cattle ranches,but they have been in Ga.since 1944 when land was much cheaper.I believe the Mussers
Wooleys,Allreds and Naylor and the other Missouri families are mostly Trenholm inlaws
and employees.These are definitely not "United Order"type of Mormons.
Joseph Trenholm personally told me "I wouldnt give, or sell a foot of my land to any of those Jeffs People"
Georgia
All of the families in Missouri that came from the Short Creek area that I am aware of were considered apostates clear back in the eighties. I don't think any of them would be very welcome into warren's flock. I also think warren would have to be a lot more desperate than he is now to even consider asking them for assistance.
I think gentile has the right idea for the connection provided there is one.
Interesting, is there someONE with jeffs who is persuasive enough, or is there someTHING that might persuade those from Georgia to help out in some way.
He's so disgusting - it just doesn't work.
I don't think God has to hold a committee, pardon me, priesthood council, to enact His Will.
Well, at least muggy isn't *into sodomy*. We might continuously bring up the fact that your 'prophet' is a sodomite - but that's his (and frankly your) problem - NOT OURS.
So, if you can go so far as to say that we are all 'baby killers' (though we are not) because our - meaning YOURS and mine - countries high court has stated it's legal. Then we can most assuredly freely call you all sodomites since your personal leader is a sodomite.
You're all wrong and I think you're putting God in your own image.
Just take a minute, and try not to justify your wickedness, and then maybe you can get .00000000000001% on who God really is.
But.... probably not. You'd have to quit liying to yourself first.
Mercy cannot rob Justice and vice-versa.
Anon - you'll just have to explain yourself more. It's not like we haven't heard 'I'm right, and everyone else is wrong' before. Of course 'I know God better than you' is popular on this blog as well, and finally 'you're the one who is wicked' is just plain standard here.
You're just going to have to get more specific.
For instance my post. OTS states that we are all killers because abortion is legal (he doesn't include himself in this, I can't figure out why since he is a citizen of the US as well).
I merely stated that making me a 'baby killer' because of a supreme court decision is like me making him a sodomite because his leader is a sodomite.
Now, am I wrong to make this comparison to exploit the poor logic of his faulty thinking - or is ots's faulty thinking wrong?
How did I justify my wickedness?
How did I put God in my image?
How does this how that I don't know God - or that you do?
How am I lying to myself?
How did mercy rob justice in my post?
How did justice rob mercy in my post?
If you aren't more concise and clear - I get left with all these questions after reading your post. So really, your post can contribute nothing if it doesn't say anything other than 'I know better', 'I am better', 'You are bad'. You just have to do better than that.
How do you know who my personal leader is - I have not told you?
Oh yeah - your right I did. It's God. Hmmm, last I knew he wasn't a baby killer OR a sodomite.
You voted or did you abdicate and let others choose? Either way It's YOUR GOVERNMENT TOO.
And, I'll just date myself a little here. I didn't have the right to vote when Roe vs. Wade came down - soooooo, I had nothing to do with that one - or picking the leaders and voting for the justices who would pick the supreme court who would make that decision.
I am wearing clothes - shame on you for thinking of my naked.
We have discussed abortion - and I have done more to stop abortion than you have - I win solidly on this issue.
Your other words make no sense.
We are judged by our own actions - not by the actions of others.
I'm sure mugsy is just fine all on his own, so am I.
and YOU ARE (nuts).
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