Tuesday, August 09, 2005

The First Law of Heaven

One day I was talking to a wise man that had moved from SLC to CC and I asked him " What is the first law of Heaven?" His reply was "Obedience". I was not taught that, so I told him I understood it to be to Love God and Love your Neighbors. As I was remembering this, I looked it up on the computer. Uncle Rulon quoted many times that the first law of Heaven was obedience. But U. Roy always said, The first law of heaven is Obedience to the two great commandments of : Love God and Love your neighbor.


onthestreet said...

You got em MIXED UP, chum.

1. Obedience, the FIRST law of heaven (Joseph taught that obedience is the first law of heaven.)

2. Love, the GREATEST law. (Jesus taught this): Christ's Two Great Commands Mt 22:36 “[Jesus], which is the great commandment in the law?” And he said to him... On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets.” ...

D&C 64: 34: Behold, the Lord requireth the heart & a willing mind; & the willing & obedient shall eat the good of the land of Zion in these last days. & the rebellious shall be cut off out of the land of Zion, & shall be sent away, & shall not inherit the land.

They are not of Ephraim. For, verily I say that the rebellious are not of the blood of Ephraim, wherefore they shall be plucked out.

Behold, I, the Lord, have made my church in these last days like unto a judge sitting on a hill, or in a high place, to judge the nations. For it shall come to pass that the inhabitants of Zion shall judge all things pertaining to Zion. And liars & hypocrites shall be proved by them, & they who are not apostles & prophets shall be known.

Obedience is the first law of heaven, the cornerstone upon which all righteousness and progression rest. It consists in compliance with divine law, ...

Anonymous said...


OTS got one right!


Of course, obedience to a fals prophet doesn't help you at all.

Land said...

street; why do you quote D&C on here like it is truth. Those documents were written by men to create religion and control. You write these words like it is god's truth. You need to get educated about life outside of the cult you love so much.

Faithful Woman said...

What is the Bible? Isn't it also a document written by men to create religion and control?

onthestreet said...

Ahh, and who is God? Anyone hazard a guess?

Anonymous said...

NEWS FLASH OTS! God is many things... But I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings, GOD is not YOU!

Anonymous said...

Faithful woman:

The Bible is supposedly a written history, although the first stories were written around 400 AD.

But it has been used by men to create religion and control over others.


fttc said...


Don't be offended.

If you come here to find out what makes fundamentalists tick you have to accept the fact that we believe certain books to be scripture. You don't have to believe them but the only way you will undrerstand us is to have some idea what the foundation for our faith is.

I don't defend Street in most of his quotes because he does not quote exact. He takes a word here and there and extrapolates the rest. Often completely perverting the truth. But the books he claims to quote are our scriptures.

Land said...

I am not offended.. I grew up in the same place you did. I understand being taught it and believing it as a child, I do not understand blind belief as an adult though. If you believe it and live well that is great. I see a whole lot of self ritghous, "I am better than others" type of stuff. That to me really detracts from the entire belief system. I appreciate your comments..

fttc said...

I'm with you 100% on the "better than you" stuff, and the blind belief. I understand you a little more now.

onthestreet said...

Ahh fokes, as a child you think as a child, you do as a child, for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven. But when you are all gwowd up, you either continue innocent, or the many influences that creep into your little minds corrupt you and inflame your egos. Then, your faith and belief become BLIND to you. Thus, "blind belief."

Then, the "better-than-thou stuff" coming from others is a reality of your own fallen nature, and you see others who are actually continuing to nurture their faith, and therefore they are literally BETTER. Then, you being fallen become offended and inferior-minded, while your ego PROTESTS your own inferiority.

Land said...


You are a sad, das little person.

onthestreet said...

And the Lord told Cain: "If thou doest well, thou shalt be accepted."

Anonymous said...

Buzzardbreath sayeth:

If thou doest not well, thou shalt have thy schizophrenic propheteth condemeth youreth every deedeth and thoughteth. Accordingeth to OTSeth, and his palaverdth of nonsenseth, thou shalt looseth thy placeth in the bigeth chance to liveth with Jeffs in a continual state of blissful copulation.

(having a little problem with the lisp)

Anonymous said...

No doubt IN heaven there is perfect obedience. Here on earth, however, those who cow-tow OBEDIENTLY to the corrupt powers that be are not as RIGHTEOUS as those who REBEL in DISOBEDIENCE to the coruptions. Right? Just wanted to put things in perspective.

Anonymous said...

Adam disobeyed the commandment given to him and was cast out of the garden. Yet he was a very righteous man who had to disobey a lesser commandment to remain obedient to a higher commandment.

Eve said, "Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient."

onthestreet said...

That's it! See! You're not so bad, sayETH the devil and adversary of your souls. But hey, ain't it true? Were it not for your experience here, at the bottom wrung or beginning foundation, you'd never be able to even consider higher glory later on.

Do the very best you can. Angels can do no better.

Anonymous said...

Us poor humans saved by the Jesus' sacrific by way of the cross will be over the Angels, Street. Didn't you read your Hebrew and Greek?

By the way Street, Michael is an Archangel, no more no less. Michael, Lucifer and Gabriel.

What of the cross Street. You don't talk of it at all. Why.....

I am sooooo curious about your answer!

onthestreet said...

DAILY, I TALK OF IT, but having ears you hear not. Follow the outline of the cross:

Jesus is the gentle-wood:
The top is Keter, or Grace.
The right is Chokhmah, Life-force.
The left is Binah, Life-form.
The vertical path is five.
The bottom is Malkhut, Kingdom.

onthestreet said...

"Up Over The Wall" thread:
8/11/2005 11:47 PM

"I don't talk about it at all???"
DAILY, AND FOREVER. But you don't seem to really like the Cross.

ATAR_i said...

OK OTS what you smokin over there with your Malkhut and Binah.

Just plain weird man - just plain weird.

mugwump said...

You won't see a cross displayed on any LDS building. They have discounted the cross of Christ. It serves them no purpose.

onthestreet said...

Tarry! I thought you knew the ancient Hebrew? If you knew that, then you wouldn't even be asking that.

Just plain ignorant, girl - just plain ignorant.

onthestreet said...

RIGHT! THEY HAVE FALLEN! That is, as far as the Celestial Order goes. The cross still has a claim on them, however, in a lesser glory. The cross covers ALOT of ground.

onthestreet said...

This last post of for Muggy:
8/12/2005 8:51 AM

ATAR_i said...

OTS even if I wrote and had a PhD in ancient Hebrew I'd still be sniffing your clothes for illegal substances - you can't make sense in English and you completely crash and burn in Hebrew as well.

mugwump said...


Is that a threat?

onthestreet said...

The above post was for you. How is that a "threat." You silly mind is still playing games with you.

And tarry, you just SMELL like tar.
As for "complete" sentences and knowing it all, we'll leave the "know it all" to you. Aren't we generous? Most of the saints and prophets through the ages were "illiterate" to the things of the world, but DOCTORS of the things of God.

Big difference, for the university degreed FOKES are often "educated derelicts forever learning, and NEVER coming to a knowledge of the truth.

Furthermore, the illiteracy of saints, prophets, and even angels provide a handy and effective stumblilng block (how da ya like dat one) for all who "dwell in darkness and love to have it so", while "gross darkness covers the minds of the people."

Most of the above in quotes are actually SCRIPTURE, the Word of the Lord. Do you care?

onthestreet said...

And tar, why do you still go about "sniffing" people, as you say? Gross!!! Only dogs do that.

ATAR_i said...

Just using my God given senses - since your a pro choice, pro feminist, astrology loving, new age polygamist wiccan - I would'nt think you would have a problem with that.

And, dogs tend to smell your privates - I'd avoid those areas, just your general aroma (because I have a nose) gives you away.

Anonymous said...

Mugwump: I was wondering about your comment on crosses. So I asked my Catholic wife "Why are the crosses and an image of Jesus hanging on a cross important"? She didn't know, other than they've always been around her parents and grandparents house. It kind of reminds everyone of the bad old days.

We have a few crosses in our house but they are considered 'art'. She has them around because her parents had them around.

So, just because a religion doesn't have crosses doesn't mean they have left Jesus behind, it just means that the symbol of the cross doesn't mean the same to that religion as it does to you. It doesn't mean that any religion is better or worse than any other.

I myself would rather have a beer sign hanging on my wall, but that's just me. We all have our cross to bear.

Long Time Gone

ATAR_i said...

Interesting about the crosses - while I don't have them lying about (Ok I admit I have a few rosaries - am I catholic - no - but I think they are pretty and I wear them with regular outfits).

Of course - my catholic friend just laughs at me and says only the old lady catholics would be caught dead with one on (but I don't care, I think they're pretty).

I didn't realize that LDS doesn't have a cross in it. Normally, that wouldn't bother me. However, if the rationale for it's ommission is because it has been discounted - and it's meaning isn't important - that would bother me. It's actual physical presence is not important (long time and I agree about that).

mugwump said...

The cross does not have a Corpus Christi. It is the symbol of victory. The "cross" did not conquer "The Lamb of God."

Jesus, by his resurection from the dead, overcame the cross. The cross was not the ending of the life of Jesus, it was a paranthetical event. It symbolized to the Roman world an instrument of capital punishment. It's being empty of a cadaver is symbolmatic of Christ's victory. It never should be considered an object of worship. To do so would make it an idol. Early Christians identified themselves to each other with two signs, the cross and the fish (become fishers of men.)

Gone fishin' again.

onthestreet said...

Why was Peter crucified the way he was? I AM! You take the outline of the letter "I" or the word, and you get two crosses: One heavenward and one earthward, one right-side-up, and one upside down.

This completes the "I" or the crown, swallowing up heaven and earth. The "I" is the Hebrew Yod or crown. Jesus ascended to his heavenly domain, a heavenly dominion, leaven Peter in an earthly domain, an earthly dominion, the upside down cross for bottom of the "I".

"As on earth, so in heaven, and the two unite eye to eye. Below the "I" or Yod, is the eye of Daat, and above it is the Ain.

mugwump said...


Just go back and read,
READ; that is provided that your eyes are open, you know the sounds of the letters of the alphabet and are somewhat acquainted with phonics.

I was refering to the cross of calvary, the cross upon which Jesus was crucified.

For God so loved the world that he GAVE His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to comdemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved. He that believeth on Him is not condemed: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (Gospel of John 3:16-18 KJV)

Emphasis on wht word GAVE is the key to understanding the gospel. God doesn't need anything, he made it all. Jesus doesn't need anything because he is God's only begotten son.

Sin can only be forgiven through sacrifice. Man had been offering animal, drink, meal et.al. offerings to God. Man's gifts were imprefect and often nothing but a ritual. So God, knowing the heart of man, gave the supreme sacrifice, that which had more value than anything in the world, in the solar system and to relms beyond anyone's imagination: God GAVE His Son, Jesus Christ. The act of God constituted a GIFT to mankind. God GAVE the GIFT. The GIFT, paid the full price of man's sinfulness. To GAIN the GIFT the only thing required of man was to accept the GIFT. Acceptance of the GIFT and acknowledging the cost of the GIFT to God is the only requirement for salvation.

For by GRACE are ye saved, through FAITH; and that not of yourselves; it is the GIFT of God: not of WORKS lest any man should boast.
(Epistle to the Ephesians 3: 8-9)

To believe it or not, that is up to you. No one can do it for you. Not now, not in the future. It is your own personal decision to accept the GIFT ot to reject it.

The price God paid was the price of redemption of your soul from a devil's hell.

Pardon me, I need to leave here and go fishing.

onthestreet said...

MUGGY, you still a bit muggy?
You said: "I was refering to the cross of calvary, the cross upon which Jesus was crucified."

SO WAS I. Just because you don't understand all the significance of that cross doesn't make your knowledge complete. Quite the opposite, yes?

The top of the Cross is Keter. This is the Crown, and GRACE, His Father.

Through FAITH. This is Malkhut and Kingdom, his Prophet.

And this NOT of ourselves. Believe it or not, this is up to you.

But being without works, you just go fishing. He will make you a fisher of men, but you would not.

mugwump said...

What gospel are you quoting? As I have said again and again, if it has any origin other than the Bible, Original KJV, New KJV, NIV, NASB, Holman, Phillips etc. and NOT JOE SMITH'S PERVERSION it is creditable. Anything cooked, basted, fried, boiled, baked up by a LDS prophet or President does not warrant that distinguishment. I won't accept it as even being a smidgen of truth. Go figure, I'm going fishing.

Anonymous said...

Mugwump there's an old saying:

"I won't swim in your toilet if you won't pee in my pool"

Coming in here to do SMITH'S PERVERSION is like peeing in the pool.

Go swim somewhere else, if you can't hold it. This ain't the place for that.

All anyone here heard you say was.. I am predjudice and.. I won't accept a smidgen of truth. The rest got lost in the rhetoric.

onthestreet said...


mugwump said...

Repeat post @ 8:26. nuf sed.

onthestreet said...

MUGS: Okay, let's repeat some of it:

"As I have said again and again, if it has any origin OTHER THAN THE BIBLE...IT IS CREDITABLE...I'm going fishing". 8/14/2005 8:26 PM

FINALLY you confess the truth of FLDS Scripture and that great Prophet Joseph Smith, and all who followed in his WAKE.

Happy fishin. Don't drown yourself again. Baptism would do, if you were worthy of that.

Anonymous said...

Wow--that's worse than the news media for taking out of context and saying somethat exactly opposite.

mugwump said...

Already been there, done that. The cleansing preceded the dip in the tank.

onthestreet said...

MUGS: Now that is a very wise statement, and the way the Lord requires it. Not saying you fulfilled it. That's all just conjecture. But you're RIGHT: First faith, THEN REPENTANCE, the cleansing part, and finally baptism and reception of the Holy Ghost.

SEE! There is truth everywhere, and "We accept truth wherever it is found," even it the source is a bit, um, let me see, shall we say. . . Muggy?

onthestreet said...

NONNY: 8/17/2005 7:16 PM
It's direct CONTEXT: Mugs said:

"As I have said again and again, if it has any origin OTHER THAN THE BIBLE...IT IS CREDITABLE..."

So, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, Daily Revelation from and Prophet, etc.are "origins other than the Bible, and therefore CREDIBLE," says Mugsy. Very well put, my friend.

onthestreet said...

2nd Lines's a typo:
..."from a Prophet"

mugwump said...

There was an exclusion in that sentene you quoted. You conveniently did not include "NOT JOE SMITH PERVERSION", planted near the end. If it was written by Smith or his followers it is not scripture, regardless of how much truch it contains.

A lie is imbeded with just enough truth to make it plausible. A person not used to telling lies will get caught 9 out of 10 times. It is the accomplished liar, like J.S., who has hoodwinked an otherwise intelligent people into believing that they can become good enough to become a god themselves.

And therein is the biggest lie of all.

Faithful Woman said...


If you don't believe that you could become good enough to become a god, what do you look forward to at death?

Anonymous said...




Rest. Forever.

Mugwump has worked SOOOOO hard during his/her/its 60-90 years on Earth that it will take FOREVER to rest up, even with a perfect body.

Anonymous said...

We are every bit as sure you are wrong about Joseph Smith as you are sure that you are right. Maybe even more sure.

So what the hell would it hurt to just shut up about it. It won't hurt us any, either way, and it might even help you in the long run.

It for sure isn't going to help anyone to go the blaspheme ridicule route.

mugwump said...

faithful woman:

To meet my Savior face to face.

onthestreet said...

Try 144,000 screeners before the Lord:

Rev. 14:1- "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and NO MAN COULD learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

These are they WHICH ARE NOT DEFILED WITH WOMEN; for they are virgins.

Rom 10:14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear WITHOUT A PREACHER?

15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

John 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber (Baptism by one having the true authority is the door to him)

10:2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep (the prophet enters first).

10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out (the new name, signs, tokens, etc. required for entry into His presence).

10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

10:5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

10:6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

10:7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

10:8 All that ever came before me ARE THIEVES AND ROBBERS: but the sheep did not hear them.

Eph 5:11
11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.(KJV)

But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and
watch unto prayer.
~ I Peter 4:7

onthestreet said...

MUG: No man will ever "meet his savior face to face without a confidential password and introduction, according to THE PROCESS REVEALED only by the Lord.

John 10:
1. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same IS A THIEF AND A ROBBER.

2. But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3. To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4. And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5. And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

6. This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7. Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.
8. All that ever came before me ARE THIEVES AND ROBBERS: but the sheep did not hear them.

Rom. 10:
14. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear WITHOUT A PREACHER?

15. And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16. But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Furthermore, it is written in the D&C 76:

81 And again, we saw the glory of the telestial, which glory is that of the lesser, even as the glory of the stars differs from that of the glory of the moon in the firmament.

82 These are they who received not the gospel of Christ, neither the testimony of Jesus.

83 These are they who deny not the Holy Spirit.

84 These are they who are thrust down to hell.

85 These are they who shall not be redeemed from the devil until the last resurrection, until the Lord, even Christ the Lamb, shall have finished his work.

86 These are they who receive not of his fulness in the eternal world, but of the Holy Spirit THROUGH THE MINISTRATION OF THE TERRESTRIAL;

87 And the terrestrial through the ministration of the celestial.

88 And also the telestial receive it of the administering of angels who are appointed to minister for them, or who are appointed to be ministering spirits for them; for they shall be heirs of salvation.

Whether you choose to believe it from BIBLE or BOOK OF COVENANTS, or not at all, matters NOTHING, except to your own soul, dear brother.

ATAR_i said...

"confidential password and introduction"

If that is your idea of John 14:6 - I prefer the ACTUAL scripture. And, I don't need to be FLDS or love warren.

6 Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."

mugwump said...

Anon. 8/19 6:54PM

I am on a missionary fishing trip.

I don't expect you in the priesthood to do anything except to try to belittle my entries.

They will continue because I firmly believe that there are enough, if given the choice, would change leadership, both personnel and rules, and adopt a more democratic (not party related) system of self government. And that, my friend, is your greatest fear.

onthestreet said...

The Work of God is not by the voice of man, but the voice of God: Vox Dei, Vox Populi

mugwump said...

Perhaps not, but while we live on this earth, we are subject to it's laws. The nature of this nation is not a dictatorship, it's an imperfect democracy, but it has proven to be the best avilable today.

onthestreet said...

Okay, if you are subject to ALL man's laws, and every lawyer acknowledges a massive conflict of human laws and special interests, and the Lord decrees that in this day "The devil will deceive all nations", where does that put you?

He has commanded the true saint to "come out of her, the world,and be not a partaker of her SINS".
"And few there be that find it."

mugwump said...

It doesn't put me anywhere. I agree that many "lawyers" are corrupt as are some judges. But not all who are trusted with law enforcement are corupt.

I firmly believe the reason cases are lost before tribunals is lack of preparation and the development of rational motions presented to the court. Your lawyer can only argue upon those motions presented in the court for consideration. Instructions are given to juries that their purpose is to consider the facts to either prove or dis-prove the motions before the court. Poor preparation and a weak case doesn't do too well in our justice system. And that is why it is called a justice system.

You LDSers demand strict conformity to the edicts and laws of your church.

You need to remember this: Whether you are a supporting citizen of U.S. Policy or not, if you live here, you are subject to the law, just as you are to the law of your church.

fttc said...


Faithful's question piqued my interest. We too live and hope to see our Saviour face to face. But then what? What is our purpose here by your belief? Why did God create us? Are we just a whim that he had or is there some purpose to our existence? This may be the wrong place for this but I am curious.

If you choose not to answer here and feel to do it email at fttcrack@hotmail.com.

mugwump said...


Thank you for your intelligent question. I shall attempt to answer in my feable way.

I believe that God is the creator, redeemer and sustainer of life. I believe that He is God, very God, if you will. I would not attempt to know the mind of God. My finate little intelligence is too small for me to attempt such a feat.

Why was man created? Why have so many men attempted to make God in their own immage. It may be too simple, but I believe that God has told the world that He is a jealous God. He, being God wants no other diety to assume His role.
I use the term diety loosly, as too often man has interpreted the word.

Man, is essentially a very selfish being. He wants to control every aspect of his own life and surroundings. In ancient times, man, by the use of his own hands created immages of beasts, of symbols that had some meaning, of human likeness and called the facsimile his god.

The Bible tells the story of man's attempt to make god in his own image. Bel, baal, molech and many other man made gods were worshiped by the men that created these images. In essance, this is man worshiping himself. If he made it, he can control it and make it say anything he wants it to say.

Jacob's descendents, the children of Israel were released from Egyptian bondage due to the direct intervention of God. These people were led through the desert, saved from the waters of the Red Sea, fed both manna and quail, their clothing never wore out neither did their footwear. God on Mt. Sinai wanted to reveal himself to the people. They, being sinful were fearful of God's presence and asked Moses to be their advocate before God.

Through these many miracles God sheltered and protected these people. When they reached the land that they had been promised God went before them into battle. As long as their trust was in God, the battles were won in their favor. After a time they became tired of nomadic lives and wanted peace.

Contrary to the instructions of God, given to Moses, relating to relationship between his people and those fringe populations left following the warfare, Israel married into those tribes, The cannanite people were idol worshipers. After a period of time the Israelites too began to worship the same idols.

This sin and redemption cycle repeated itself until God's wrath sent Israel into Babylonian captivity. Following that captivity, Israel never did again engage in idol worship.

During Israel's previous sojourn in the desert a system of worship was established and a society was established and documented under God's instruction to Moses. That system of worship declared that God was Holy. Sin, disobedience of God's law, caused man to be seperated from God. Sin and God cannot co-exist. Sin is destroyed in God's presence. A system of sacrifice for sin was set up. The sacrifice had to cost the man making it something. Only perfect sacrifices were acceptable.

God, knowing man's weakness toward sin and idoltry understood, as only God could do determined that He, God, was going to have to provide the perfect sacrifice as an atonement for man's sin. The blood of beasts was insufficient. Therefore, God, in a demonstration of His Love, gave His Son, My Savior, as sacrifice for MY SIN. Jesus became SIN. When he hung on the cross he cried out to God, My God, My God, why have you forsaken me? In that moment, Christ, who had become my sin, died, because he was sin he could not live in God's presence. Again, I emphasize Jesus became MY SIN. He is MY Redeemer. If he cared so much for my eternal life, can you understand why I want to see HIM face to face!!!

Why God? We wouldn't understand REAL LOVE without HIS having demonstrated it to us. God is Love. His purpose is Love, ours is to return that love in our own simple way.

I am indeed sorry I could not tell the last line without giving the reason for that line. I am sorry for the length of my inadequate testimony to express that love. I am not sory for His Love and my desire to be embraced in His Loving Arms. Greater Love Has No Man than This, That He Lay Down His Life for His Friend. Christ died for my sin. He died for your sin too. He wants to be our Savior, but He can't unless we invite him into ourselves, and He becomes the better part of ourself.

fttc said...


Thank you for your testimony. I think I understand your emphasis on Jesus' love for all of us. With all due respect what do you expect to do in the next life? Is there any progress? How does our being swallowed up in His love make him any greater? Make us any greater? What is accomplished?

Forgive the many questions. I just think if I can understand better where you are coming from your words will have greater relevance to me and others.

Faithful Woman said...

for you scriptorians, where does it say that as man is, God once was. and as God is, man may become.

Faithful Woman said...

Just so I know if it originated with LDS, or the Bible.

fttc said...

It was Lorenzo Snow that first came up with those exact words. He received it through inspiration while pondering on the scriptures and the revelations revealed through Joseph Smith. He kept it to himself however until he could talk to Joseph. Joseph declared it to be true and later taught it publicly and expounded further on it. You cannot find those exact words in the Bible.

Anonymous said...

Read the King Follet funeral discourse. DHC 6:306-7 also found in JD Volume 6 can't remember exact page. Extracts are also in TPJS 342-362.

ATAR_i said...

God created us for his pleasure Rev 4:11

He is pleased when we offer ourselves, as living sacrifices (emphasis living). Meaning, live a life worthy of him by glorifying his name in all things. Romans 12:1

I editorialized because I don't have my Bible handy to direct quote.

fttc said...


So is glorifying his name here on earth (I suppose you mean giving him the credit for all good things and obeying his commands) all there is? What is our reward in the hereafter assuming we are faithful?

mugwump said...


I don't pretend to know God's agenda but, I think (this is my on take unsupported by anything else)that He, being God, will provide us with tasks that we find enjoyable. I love singing but the idea that eternity comprizes sitting on a clowd strumming a harp doesn't sound very heavenly to me.

As you well know, I believe that we as humans proceed with carnal activity while upon earth. We marry, bear children, earn wages etc. I think that the Bible addresses the issue of marriage in heaven. We are taught that there are no marriages in heaven. That old things (by this I presume man's sinful nature) will no longer be a governing factor in our lives, therefore of no importance. IN heaven there is no sin, no temptation, no fear of hell or eternal separation from God. Time as we recon it will no more be a factor. Our desire for food and drink are established as a privledge. We will not be restrained from partaking of these, but it will be of a nature that does nothing to nurture our bodies. When we die, we depart fleshly bodys, at the eminent return of Jesus, we are given heavenly bodies. Remember, our earthly bodies represent our sinful nature, our heavenly bodies our redeemed spirit of truth that totally reflects the Spirit of God.

A great amount of the Bible is given to prophesy. In two instances, in Daniel and in Revelation, the observer, Daniel and John the Apostle are instructed to seal up the book against end times. Perhaps those sealed books will be opened at the end times and pronouncement made that assign us each tasks that are in keeping with our abilities and desires.

Other than telling you that our heavenly eternity will be spent doing work that we enjoy. That those tasks we are required to perform on earth are no longer of any importance I really don't know. Since my Lord, God made me from dust, how much more desirable will be my heavenly body, that body not of human frailty, but likened to our resurected Savior.

Our lives will be full, we won't experience boredom, not subject to the cares and woes of this world but totaly linked to that which we might have been on earth, had it not been for our sinful nature.

fttc said...


Thank you for sharing your beliefs with me. I think our idea of heaven is not so different. It is interesting though that you say it is unsupported by anything else when you have leaned so heavy on the scripture in the past. Of course I realize you used Daniel and John.

My intention is not to challenge your belief system. It is only to understand it. I think there are many things the Lord has not revealed to us. Whether we are LDS, FLDS, Protestant, Catholic or otherwise we have a tendency to think we know more than we do. I appreciate your candor in admitting that you do not know all. None of us do.

ATAR_i said...


I wouldn't say that glorifying God in everything is a small task, but rather it's nothing less than a lifetimes work.

As far as understanding our reward in heaven for being faithful and glorifying God - I don't think my human mind can comprehend what God has in store.

I wish I could tell you something more concrete. When I was younger I remember thinking of heaven as a place with piles of ice cream, candy and cookies - because that was what paradise would be to me as a child.

I suppose we tend to make heaven something we can understand, but I'm certain Gods plans and ideas are so much better.

onthestreet said...

So right, you all, in your search for truth. Blessings to you. Isn't silence golden. I won't say anything more here.

mugwump said...

I commend atar_i for her understanding. Her second paragraph says, in a few words, that which I took up a lot of space on this site attempting to explain.

Anonymous said...

The greatest joy on Earth can be found in the service of others.

I believe that those in Heaven will have a greatly increased capacity and opportunity to serve God through serving others.

That makes Heaven a place of "work".

onthestreet said...

Yes indeed, God's Work.

ATAR_i said...

Perhaps we would work, perhaps not - I know there is no sickness and disease. He made the garden of Eden without weeds, so would he make a physical garden - would we even eat? I don't know. I don't believe any of you can answer that for me either. I'll just have to wait and see.

onthestreet said...

Right! You "don't know", and you "don't believe", being an unbeliever. Yes, you'll have to wait.

mugwump said...

I can't pass judgement, but I believe your evidence is more substantial than his.

ATAR_i said...

Because I don't know the goodness of God's plans, does not mean I do not believe. My expression is one that speaks forth - his plans, are not my plans, his thoughts, are not my thoughts - they are so much bigger, and greater, and more splendorous.

I am not arrogant enough to believe I have the same understanding as God. You can tease me for this, and call me an unbeliever. But the bottom line is....I'm not. I believe in God, I believe that Jesus was his son, and that God raised him from the dead, that whosoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

I believe what the Bible asks me to believe - and am not bound by all the trappings you set forth.

onthestreet said...

You're okay.

ATAR_i said...

May I quote that? Here for posterity I'll cut and paste

"onthestreet said...

You're okay.

8/28/2005 1:49 PM "

You said this right after my post - I'm assuming you're speaking to me or was it mugwump?

onthestreet said...

Hey, both of you!

mugwump said...