Thursday, August 25, 2005

Here's a challenge

There have been many rumors of prophecies that warren has made. I know some of them to be true having been present when they were given. Others I think were just rumor. I cannot think of one of his prophecies having come true.

What prophecies has he made? Give a time and place if you can. Let's try and sift out the rumors from the truth. Have any been fulfilled? That is the most important part.

174 comments:

Paladin for Truth said...

There is a difference between a prophecy coming true and the guy that gave the supposed prophecy making it come true. If a guy tells you that you are going to die soon and then has you killed, that does not sound like prophecy, that sounds more like premeditated. Most of Warren's supposed prophecies, look more like premeditated actions.

Anonymous said...

Even some of those self-fulling "predictions" would be interesting. I bet his record is so bad that even most of those were made from the obvious or after the fact.

Like I predict that OTS will respond to this thread. Make me into a liar will you please OTS?

the_lerker said...

He said in every church meeting that Uncle Rulon would be renewed, literally, in mind and body.

When it didn't happen, people started saying that he was just on another mission, and that he was renewed in spirit.
God help us all.

the_lerker said...

When he stood up in Saturday Morning Meeting to cast out the Barlow Brothers, he also said there would be a split among the people, which we have yet to see.

onthestreet said...

CC-YFZ couldn't be more of a SPLIT, like a THOUSAND MILES APART. There, Nonny is a truthful woe-man.

As for the prophecy of his father living here for 320 years, Christ might actually be capable of resurrecting a man, and letting him do just that, live here for 320 years, and then go do another work for the Lord.

Just because prophecies aren't fulfilled snap-to-it-right-now-the-way-I-fantacise-it-to-be, doesn't make prophecies false, just yourself. Most Christians will agree that the Bible is true. Yet there are many prophecies that are THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLD and unfulfilled. So were the prophets false???

Your choice, to be friend or foe of God Almighty.

the_lerker said...

See folks, this is exactly what I'm talking about. When what is prophecied does not come to pass, warrenites start reasoning and twisting so that they don't look foolish, yet as we see here, they look even more foolish.

OTS, I'd like to challenge you to post a prophecy in the bible that has not been fulfilled.

Of course Christ has the power to resurrect, that isn't what Warren said. He said his Father would be renewed and live 300 some odd years into the millenium. But as we all know, he died, God rest his soul.

What we see here is brainwashing in action.

American POW's of the Vietnam Era were brainwashed into turning traitor to their country. How was it done? Thet were asked to write down 10 reasons why they shouldn't have gone to war. Next, the enemy broadcast what they had written to all the other POW's. Next they asked them to write an essay on the reasons to stay home. Before they knew it, they were defending their point of views, and soon, they were embracing communism, because they HAD TO DEFEND THEIR POINT OF VIEW SO AS TO NOT SEEM FOOLISH.

Paladin for Truth said...

Warren, on his young peoples history of Joseph Smith tapes, states that his father, Uncle Rulon, is the last prophet and that there will be no more after him. Hmmmm, where does that leave Warren, with nothing perhaps. Perhaps that has come true, and Warren was not even claiming to be a prophet when he made that statement.

Anonymous said...

Whatever happened to "leave Father's wives alone--he will be back for them after a short journey"? Then he openly shows his immorality in the eyes of the people by marrying his own father's wives, and all the people said "AMEN".

onthestreet said...

8/25/2005 6:37 PM: JERKER Said:
"See folks, this is exactly what I'm talking about. When what is prophecied does not come to pass, warrenites start reasoning and twisting so that they don't look foolish.

STREET's Reply: See fokes, this is exactly what you don't like when a prophecy ACTUALLY can be fulfilled, JUST NOT IN MAN'S WAY. "God's ways are not man's ways", says the Lord (Isa.55:9). Jerker has challenged me, you, ANYONE, to post a prophecy in the Bible that has not been fulfilled, hoping to establish here and now as to exactly who is credible and who is not:

HOW ABOUT ALL the prophecies of his second coming, in Isaiah, Ecclesiastes, Jeremiah, Daniel, etc. HOW ABOUT ALL the prophecies of the end time, over 100
prophecies of Revelation! Good grief, man, there are unfilfilled prophecies from Genesis to Revelation. The Lord also says:
"My work is one eternal round", which literally means that even ALL PROPHECIES that have already been fulfilled will be fulfilled again, for it is "one eternal round." We can start with Genesis and go book by book, and relate prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled, for God's Word is eternal, past, present, and future. If you want to do that, with exact quotes and references, we can sure do it.

As for Rulon Jeffs being renewed, what greater renewal than resurrection to eternal life, an eternal renewal. You mean you don't believe that??? What you're doing here, Jerker, is
"brainwashing in action," as you put it, and by turning against the God of life and becoming Pro-choice, you have not only turned traitor of the Father, but also the fatherland.

8/25/2005 6:55 PM: Now, "paladin" for truth: Warren indeed states that his father is the last prophet of this dispensation, for I heard it myself. Therefore, he is a true prophet. The days of creation are 1,000 years to the Lord, and the sixth dispensation of truth was from 1,000 AD to 2,000 AD. Ooops, Rulon was indeed the last prophet of that dispensation, and now we are in the beginning of the return and Millenial Reign of Christ. This is another proof that Warren his son is a true prophet, and a very great one at that, being the first prophet of the Millenium. You all now have plenty of beef-jerky to chew on, or to choke on now.

8/25/2005 7:36 PM: Leave father's wives alone. This is why the Prophets command the saints: "DO NOT TOUCH THOSE WOMEN" that you marry, for they belong to the Lord," To marry in the FLDS Church is not like it is everywhere else, where you justify the rape of your wives in the name of matrimony. Well, marriage to you might be rape, but to the FLDS folks it is holiness to the Lord.

Anonymous said...

Salt Lake City was to be destroyed, move all Lakers to CC. Don't even go into Salt Lake County. There would be no Winter Olympics....But there was. and last time I checked, Salt Lake was still there.

fttc said...

Street

The problem is that you fulfill these prophecies the-way-I-fantacise-it-to-be. You don't have to twist and turn and reshape reality to see the fulfillment of true prophecies. They are obvious and easy to understand.

Anonymous said...

Let me look out the window, yep Salt Lake is still here

onthestreet said...

Well put, fttc. We all fulfill. Do you really know that? And what is more REAL than spirit, for God is spirit, and he inspires prophecies in terms of the spirit. Thus, RJ will truly be renewed, and he will live 320 years into the millenium. He was the last prophet of this dispensation. His wives were rescued to be left alone in the Lord, another fulfillment.

We have now established that the charge against the FLDS Church concerning "unfulfilled" prophecies, when in fact we can now see how they can easilly be fulfilled, just not according to the will of man, but of God. Yet, hundreds of Biblical prophecies remain UNFULFILLED after thousands of years, as shown in the prophecies concerning Christ's glorious reign, since Adam.

You all make the Lord and His Prophet look REAL GOOD. You are to be praised for that.

onthestreet said...

Excuse the gwammow. I hope you all don't blame me for sounding like Moses.

onthestreet said...

Better yet, I hope you can all find it in your heart to blame me for that very thing, poor grammer, poor this, poor that, meek and poor in spirit.

Anonymous said...

This has reached a new height of incoherence.

When were men commanded not to raise children with their wives. As far as marrying Father's wives, can a man get any more disrepectful or his own father? As far as not raping your own wife, why is it rumored that Warren essentially did that to these women, according to details from those that escaped. "If this makes you uncomfortable, just pretend it is Father doing this"

As far as 2000 being a new dispensation, where does that come from? That's one of the worst cases of talking away a failed prophecy I have ever heard. Why wasn't Joseph Smith born AD1000, then?

One eternal round--doesn't that mean history repeats itself? Worlds come and go. Or, am I to understand that there will be another Christ born of a virgin, and that is why all this talk of immaculate conception? Hey, why don't we have a Christ every 1000 years so we get so confused, we don't know who to worship, Warren or the Savior?

the_lerker said...

I would still like to hear of a failed prophecy in the Bible, street. You haven't given one single example yet, you just go off on a rampage.

We all know that Christ will reign personally upon the earth in the last days, IT SPELLS IT OUT THAT WAY, WORD FOR WORD.

No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel: "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. Even on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my Spirit in those days, and they will prophesy. I will show wonders in the heaven above and signs on the earth below, blood and fire and billows of smoke. The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and glorious day of the Lord. And everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved' (Acts 2:16-21).

fttc said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
fttc said...

Anon 2:19

You are more of a prophet than warren. All of your prophecies have come true. Now don't prophecy any more evil against us and we will give you your desire unto half of the kingdom!

Faithful Woman said...

To refute street. Rulon Jeffs married me to my husband. Before we were married he told us to keep our distance. After we were married, we asked if we were suposed to still "keep our distance", he said, "You know what to do."
And it wasn't to use a turkey baster!

onthestreet said...

Nonny (8/26/2005 8:12 AM): Marrying the wives of your closest kin is the practice of the saints since Adam, and an ancient Jewish custom. Every historian knows that. so you COULDN'T GET ANY MORE RESPECTFUL of your father. Nobody knows how Warren deals with his virgins. There are f-i-v-e wise.

Now, about dispensations, Uncle Roy said that the year 2,000 was the beginning of the seventh period of time. Other private revelations reveal this, and much more. All revelation is private, or given to a person in privacy, to be handled as directed by the Spirit of the Lord. No head of dispensation was born at the beginning of the dispensation, except Him, the beginning and the end. History repeats. It is one eternal round, says the Lord. IS THE LORD A LIAR? Christ is seven, redemption, the seventh period. Only the wicked get confused.

Is that "Lerker" (8/26/2005 10:04 AM)? Sorry, I think I've been seeing Jerker, with that underscore before your name. I must be getting younger. I didn't say there was even one failed prophecy in the Bible. Quite the opposite. All true prophecy gets fulfilled, just not when, where, and how you demand its fulfillment.

Now, as for Biblical prophecies not yet fulfilled, like I said, EVERY PROPHECY pertaining to the return of Christ in glory, that alone adds up to a whole slew of prophecies not yet fulfilled, for Christ has not yet returned in glory. See? Elect sons and daughters will prophecy, not those who rebell against God and His prophet. For God is not a God of confusion, but of Order. You've only gone through a RAMPAGE in that post of yours ( 8/26/2005 10:04 AM).

Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved (in some kingdom or another; there are nine degrees). Only those who call on him IN FAITH, NOTHING DOUBTING, will be saved in the highest. LoF


Faithless Woman(8/26/2005 11:59AM)

It is not the Prophet's work to tend your bed chamber after administering the vows, and especially if you are not of the elect, or advanced in your knowledge and grace before God. The gospel net gathers many, and the tares are then cast off.

Mat 13:10 "And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, BUT TO THEM IT IS NOT GIVEN."

Yes, you know what to do in the marriage den. Dogs will be dogs, and saints will be saints. You knew that the law was to be pure, and you violated that. Thus are you faithless.

onthestreet said...

Just a warning: Unless you read this previous post in conjunction with the questions being replied to, confusion is guaranteed. You'll have to scroll up and take a look at what points were being presented. Just a widdo step of faith, widdo ones.

onthestreet said...

THEN YOU'VE GOT CONTEXT.

ATAR_i said...

Yep anon 2:19 is a prophet amont the ranks of warren, rulon and OTS.

I believe they are the same sort of prophet

I do wonder how rulons wives came through their marriage being virgins, and also through warren. Are there five women among both these men that have not given birth? And, if they have, who slides the turkey baster up the vagina close to the cervix to let the sperm swim in (a male or female). Who takes the sperm from warren or rulon after they have masterbated to themselves and put it in the baster.

Everything that God created is good, but I won't slam two people who would rather do *that* (turkeky baster fun) than have sex the way God created it - to each their own. I sure did think God did it the best way, had the best idea. But OTS seems to think warren and rulons turkey baster wins out. I wonder what God thinks about that?

Either way, I'd never eat a turkey dinner at warrens.

Merycia said...

Onthestreet said: 8/25/2005 7:36 PM: This is why the Prophets command the saints: "DO NOT TOUCH THOSE WOMEN" that you marry, for they belong to the Lord." Are you talking about FLDS prophets? Which prophets said this?

Marriage is honorable, and intimacy between spouses is honorable. Do you consider it "rape" for spouses to share intimacy with each other through love, and yes, attraction, and fulfillment in pleasure? Yet, strangers who marry because they are told to, and who risk loss of family, home, and community if they do not obey, and then must share intimacy in the marriage bed without true intimacy of heart and mind...this is holiness to the Lord?

Merycia said...

I would ask those members of the FLDS who are posting: how does Warren's seed become available for the turkey baster? Has Warren discovered a method of bringing forth his sperm without sexual/physical gratification? Is it wickedness to have pleasure result from intercourse? If so, have FLDS men accomplished what no men (to my knowledge) have done? Or are the women alone the ones who are deprived of gratification? Does that make the women more holy and pure than the men?

I am reminded of the movie, Dangerous Beauty. Set in France, it is an examination of the belief system of that age that sexual attraction was reserved for mistresses and courtesans, while wives were to be "protected" from it. The double standard, however, speaks volumes. Men maintained loveless, passionless marriages, but showered their mistresses with attention and devotion. Wives remained "protected", and lived a sterile, loveless existence, with no allowance in society for THEM (like the husbands) to look outside the marriage for fulfillment and personal expression.

I am curious, Street, if you think it shows love for a woman to expect her to go through the motions of intercourse, but deny herself emotional and physical connection with her partner and personal fulfillment in herself?

furnace said...

If you read the old testament, brothers took care of brother's wives after they died, but it declared death as the penalty for a father marrying a son's widow, or a son marrying a father's widow. 1st Corinthians, Ch. 5 also re-emphasizes this.

When Artimische wanted to marry one of John Y. Barlow's son's after he died (She was married to John Y. Barlow), she was told that this was an abomination in the sight of God, and was married to Richard Jessop.

Leroy Johnson taught Spencer Johnson this doctrine, and Uncle Spencer informed me of it. When Delone's husband put her away, her father-in-law asked if he should take Delone to wife since his son had rejected her. Uncle Roy taught that it was an abomination for either a father to marry a son's wife, or a son to marry a father's wife, and a society that allowed it would head to destruction.

Well, as a people, the FLDS not only allowed this evil, they allowed it at the head, so they are heading for destruction.

mugwump said...

Merycia:

As a male, a husband, a father a Christian I believe that your understanding of fulfilment of love is right on course. If ots, wj or any other "donors" recieve gratification they have denied the same to their life partners.

Not being LDS I don't believe that there will be marriages in heaven. Why? Because I believe that Jesus and later the diciples taught that we, individually are responsible to the Lord. If I were dependent upon anyone else to get me into heaven my eternal security would be very faulty at best. If another human could guarantee my presence in heaven just what would induce me to live a holy life?

Also, from the opposite angle, how great would be my guilt if someone was dependent on my goodness to get them into heaven. How could I live such a virtuous life?

From everything I can gather, the FLDS & LDS priesthood are constantly scrutinizing each other. And this is supposed to be a life of joy? How can one man be in such harmony with God that he has attained the God-like qualities to serve as the judge of another's righteousness, when he himself is not above sin? If that one man commits one sin, is he righteous? Are those humans that judge him any more righteous?

I think I'll believe that I am a sinner, saved by His Grace, because of my faith, and proven by my works. My salvation comes from Christ, in me and not at the whim of a judgemental fellow-man.

I have posted lengthy scripture references to support my belief. I will do so again if asked to do so.

Anonymous said...

Oh please, mugwump.. would you NOT.

mugwump said...

Anon. 2:02
I won't unless called upon to do so. I guarantee that they will come directly from KJV, authorized 1611 and not the figment of my imagination.

onthestreet said...

Well, as a people, the FLDS not only allowed this evil, they allowed it at the head, so they are heading for destruction.
8/27/2005 11:12 AM

STREET's Reply: At the cross, Jesus said to John: "Behold thy mother." IE, take care of her.

Who said that Warren married Rulon's wives. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. Even if he did, who says that he committs perversity with them. Now that is the abomination part of it, when you all do that with your own wives and daughters, or your neighbor's wives and daughters.

Why do any of you poke into a man's family business? Without a calling from God, who set you up to that, if it wasn't a devil. It is the world who gropes their women, and kills their children, in the name and by sanction of marriage, religion, and law. That makes them all false.

furnace said...

OTS--I did not make the rules; but when Warren disobeys the rules, I have a duty to protect my family from him.

onthestreet said...

And when Warren obeys the rules, as he always does, it turns the world upside down.

Anonymous said...

Warren kissed one of Uncle Rulon's wives one time in the Jeffs school in the Phelps building. He said, say hi to my new wife. That pretty much answers it for OTS trying to hide the sins of Warren.

furnace said...

Well, let's get back on track.

I wish someone could give more details on the Jerry Bateman incident where Warren was inspired he was lost on one mountain, and he was lost on a completely different mountain. This other mountain was in the opposite direction from his home. (Cedar Mountain vs. Kaibab?)


PS. When a man is standing on his head, he thinks the world is upside down.

onthestreet said...

And when Warren obeys the rules, as he always does, it turns the world upside down. 8/27/2005 6:14 PM

FURNACE Said: When a man is standing on his head, he thinks the world is upside down. 8/27/2005 11:13 PM

Peter was crucified unside down, and he's the man at the gate of heaven.

Acts 17:31: "Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by [that] man whom he hath ordained; [whereof] he hath given assurance unto all [men], in that he hath raised him from the dead. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this [matter]. So Paul departed from among them. Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed:

ANONYMOUS Said... Warren kissed one of Uncle Rulon's wives one time in the Jeffs school...That pretty much answers it for OTS trying to hide the sins of Warren. 8/27/2005 7:35 PM

Greet one another with a holy kiss.
bible.cc/2_corinthians/13-12.ht

Rom. 16:16, Salute one another with an holy kiss. The churches of Christ salute you. 16:17, Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause ...
www.livingwordbroadcast.org/LWBKJV_Bible/Romans/16.html

fttc said...

Once again Street is showing his schizophrenia. One of the symptoms is that a person will take word associations and tie thoughts together which normally do not relate. Viz., to think that warren kissing his new wife equates with the holy kiss in the new testament. They match in Street's mind because they are the same word. Once a schizophrenic has established a link they can twist all the other context to match. Thier mind centers on the common link and all other meaning is lost to them. You will find this throughout Street's dialogue here. Once you understand where a person is coming from it is much easier to understand their thoughts.

fttc said...

Furnace

Can you give an approximate time this happened? Was it in the winter? Was it the CC search and rescue that finally found Jerry?

ATAR_i said...

Furnace - what is the background for the mountain story - was the little dub (w) in church when he told it - did you hear it. Oh pretty please - I could use a good true story.

onthestreet said...

fttc ( 8/28/2005 10:51 AM):
Notice that when fttc or anyone else gets found out in their lies and misconceptions, and backed up even the the Word of God, which apparently they do not believe and want nothing to do with, then they will call it "SCHIZOPHRENIA". Out of the abundance of your hearts your minds sicken. Kiss means kiss means kiss. Aintchagotnolove.

Poor ole tarbucket is just looking for stories for her gossip mill. That has always been very obvious, that self-righteous biddy Mrs. Tarson.

onthestreet said...

...backed up even BY the Word of God.

fttc said...

Then by streets own admission the kiss in the den of the harlot is just as holy as warren's kiss in the schoolhouse. He said it.

mugwump said...

I can't believe bots statement regarding wj's ability to turn the world upside down.

That little fugitive from justice doesn't have enough real influence with anyone to cause any world event, perhaps except with an act of terrorism. Is he that sick?

God provided Schliecher Co. with a wonderful 1 1/2 - 2 1/4 rain last night. Can street do that for mankind? Can wj?

From evidence presented so far, wj seems to be better at sexual abuse and theft of Church funds than anything else.

Outside the sphere of exposure, wj is considered as being a pathetic pervert.

onthestreet said...

fttc said...
Then by streets own admission the kiss in the den of the harlot is just as holy as warren's kiss in the schoolhouse. He said it.
8/28/2005 2:03 PM

There you've got it. See, IT IS NOT THE KISS that's evil, but the purpose and intent, and the sins that follow.

We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is ANYTHING virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Brigham Young:
"The Christian world struggled on until the days of the Reformation. But what of the Reformation? Nothing, only it shows that there were some few among them who had courage to come out against the orthodox principles ordained, published, and proclaimed by the Priests. They had an idea in their minds that the Lord was going to do something for the people, but they could not tell what. There was a spirit upon them that prompted them to declare against the wickedness of those professing to be Christians. Did they profess to know enough to take the truth and leave the error? No; down to the days of my youth the Christians did not know any better than to renounce any doctrine that the Church believed from which they came.

This is more or less the case with every denomination on the face of the earth. Some who call themselves Christians are very tenacious with regard to the Universalians, yet the latter possess many excellent ideas and good truths. Have the Catholics? Yes, a great many very excellent truths. Have the Protestants? Yes, from first to last. Has the infidel? Yes, he has a good deal of truth; and truth is all over the earth. The earth could not stand but for the light and truth it contains. The people could not abide were it not that truth holds them. It is the Fountain of truth that feeds, clothes, and gives light and intelligence to the inhabitants of the earth, no matter whether they are saints or sinners. Do you think there is any TRUTH IN HELL? YES, a great deal, and where truth is there we calculate the Lord has a right to be. You will not find the Lord where there is no truth.

The devil had truth in his mouth as well as lies when he came to mother Eve. Said he, "If you will eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you will see as the gods see." That was just as true as anything that ever was spoken on the face of the earth. She did eat, her eyes were opened, and she saw good and evil. She gave of the fruit to her husband, and he ate too. What would have been the consequence if he had not done so? They would have been separated, and where would we have been? I am glad he did eat. I am glad the fruit was given to mother Eve, that she ate of it, and that her eyes were opened, and that my eyes are opened, that I have tasted the sweet as well as the bitter, and that I understand the difference between good and evil.

onthestreet said...

STILL MUGGY (8/28/2005 4:52 PM):

We are but the dust of the earth, as was Moses. It's not the puny arm of man that's great, but Almighty God who works through His anointed. The guilt and sexual perversions of the world are exposed and acceptable by your own admissions, in the legal raping of your wives and killing of your children. God is a God of Judgement.

ATAR_i said...

blah blah blah I can't even read that rot.

fttc said...

I'm sorry street but again your answer is schizophrenic. You make associations that are not logical to anyone but yourself. What you responded with had little if anything to do with the issue at hand.

ATAR_i said...

Back to the original thread then.

warren's prophecies - which ones came true, which ones fell flat?

Does anyone have the specific year 2000 prophecies, or Olympic games prophecies?

mugwump said...

Did Jeffs sodomize you OTS?

Were you a child at the time? Have you joined in the suit?

friend, I think you need help, badly. Please, for your own sake, go see a doctor. I know that as a general rule FLDS people spurn the fact that Licensed Physicians do anything except to try to get into their minds. I think you are attempting to, in your own unusual way plead for help. We con't know you. Your rantings are frightening. Not so much to us as perhaps to those who you come into close asssociation. Please seek help, Now! I mean this in all genuine Christian sincerity, get help.

onthestreet said...

You sound pretty alarmist, young man, and very desperate. Yes, you definately need to go practice what you preach, and get help from a doctor. You're sure sounding desperate at this poingt. The love of man or "Christian sincerity" is false love, and violence to all that's descent.

onthestreet said...

I say this, because this one-time "Christian" nation is no more, but a desperate den of thieves grasping after everyone else's souls but their own, while supporting enmass the Murder policy against little children, and calling it "Christian" and "moral". The FLDS Church doesn't slay life abundantly, to the tune of 4,000 DEAD BABIES EVERY DAY. We bring forth life, and that abundantly. This is the fruit of our loins, and "By their fruit ye shall know them". THAT IS CHRISTIAN, a direct quote from Christ Himself.

fttc said...

I was still 'in' when warren was telling the people they had to be out of Salt Lake by April of 2000 as the Lord was going to destroy the city for its wickedness. At the time warren was tightening up on any notes or recordings being kept of meetings by the people. I do not have the actual quotes of warren saying this. I know there were recordings being made. Perhaps Faithful or Nintendo can help us out. The prophecy on the Olympics came after the destruction did not come on Salt Lake. It was simply that they would not occur or that if they did there would be a terrorist attack that would destroy the games and those involved.

It is interesting how his supporters either choose to overlook these and many other false prophecies or they explain them away Street style.

onthestreet said...

The destruction was determined at that time. It is set, as good as done, so the prophecy is fulfilled. All that's left is the big one. Your gross and ignorant interpretations of prophecies are futile. The Lord is just mopping up the details, and giving any stragglers a few more months to move and to gather with the saints, in his love for his children, or to seal their fate.

onthestreet said...

"And the people cry: Why have not the prophesies been fulfilled..."

2nd Peter 3 - Douay Rheims Bible - http://study.jcsm.org
... Over 450 Israel pictures, a KJV Bible, the Strong's Hebrew and Greek ... 9. The Lord delayeth not
his promise, as some imagine, but dealeth patiently for your sake...
www.jcsm.org/StudyCenter/douay/B61C003.htm

Every Single Verse in KJV bible that has to do with rapture!
Every Single Verse in KJV bible that has to do with rapture! ... Why has the Lord delayeth is coming? Why pastor? Why teacher? Why have you told us this lie ...
www.web-ministry.com/revelation/rapture/index.php

Pre-Trib Doctrinal Errors - Part 2
... (KJV). ... Another popular pre-trib quote from this chapter is "the lord delayeth his coming"
referrence in relation to the
"scoffers of the pre-trib rapture"
www.endtimeinfo.net/Rapture/pretriberror2.php

fttc said...

Thank you street! You make my point better than I can.

Anonymous said...

If man is so foolish as to believe that he, man, can fortell the exact date of the return of the Lord, he is only fooling himself.

Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away. Now concernng that day or hour no one knows--neither the angels in heaven nor the Son--except the Father. Watch! Be allert! For you don't know when the time is [coming]. Mark 13:31-33 (HCSB)

From 2004 edition: Holman Christian Standard Bible

onthestreet said...

That's it. Prophecies transpire daily out of view, while the Lord in his love gives his children a few more days or months, making it seem like the Lord is a liar, and the wicked so charge him and the Lord's anointed to this day.

Anonymous said...

What in the heck is a Holman's Christian Standard Bible? Is there someone out there named Holman writing scripture? Who would dare to put their own words int othe mouth of Deity?

Anonymous said...

So, this Holman guy believes the Bible to be true only so far as it is translated correctly?

Anonymous said...

Holman is a publishing Company.

The translations were made by over 100 scholars who made translations from Hebrew, Aramic, and Greek. The Latin translations ie. Vulgate & Douey were not consulted. Neither were the KJV, NKJV, ASV, Living Bible, Phillips, New English, New Jerusalem, NIV, NASB or any standard version. The Holman is written in today's language, very easy to read and so much more easily understood than some of the previously mentioned translations. The translation was completed in 2000 and is currently in the fifth printing.

Anonymous said...

So NOW the Bible is FINALLY, once and for all, translated correctly?

"...written in today's language, very easy to read...more easily understood..."

Is it "The Bible for Dummies"?

mugwump said...

I guess you're a dummy if you prefer to understand the nuiance of language. Ancient languages are fine but infallable?

God's WORD is infallable. I can't find any scripture that says anything different. Don't confuse Gods "WORD" with a written translation.

"The WORD" was made flesh and came among us God, in flesh, in the form of Jesus Christ. His words were recorded by the writers of the New Testament as they were inspired by the Holy Spirit.

If God allowed hearers to understand the preaching on the day of Pentecost, in their own language, where is your problem?

Had a person who only understood King James English been present at Pentecost, he/she would have understood Peter's sermon perfectly. Peter's sermon was preached in Aramic, it was understood by those in attendence in their own native tongue.

Jesus did not speak in King James English. The KJV was not released for publication until 1611.

Anonymous said...

So....the "easy-to-read" version is "The Bible for Mugwump"?

Anonymous said...

Any Bible translation commissioned by the Southern Baptists is suspect in my book.

Anonymous said...

Judge for yourself. Compare the wording, phrasing, sentence arrangement, use of verb, adverb, adjetive. Compare and I think you are in for a surprise. You sell the translation short without even making a comparison. How closed minded can you be.

mugwump said...

Anon 3:21 told you about how the translation was accomplished. In no way can this translation be thought of as having come from early translation into Latin. Like the NIV and NASB, this translation attempted to make passages, translated from the original languages, Hebrew, Aramic, Greek, more understandable to people who speak English. Neither Holman Publishers nor Southern Baptists claim that the translation is perfect. Men did the work of translation. Of course there is possability that errors were made in translating, that is not the point. It is written in common language, more easily understood by common man. Baptists have argued for generations that ultimately man is subject to God. Man can be in error. The truth, as revealed in this or any other reptuable publishing house's translation is not in the words on the page, but as perceived in the heart of man who is open to receive any message from the Lord. There are translations into Chinese, Japanese, German, French, Greek, Italian, Arabic, the various languages of Asia, Africa, Spanish, Danish and many, many other languages. Are they all wrong because they did not speak in King James English. Mormons have missionaries around the world. Do all nations have to learn King James Mormon in order to understand mormon doctrine?

Your argument is beyond logic or reason.

Anonymous said...

So why are you so careful to dance around the Baptist connection?

mugwump said...

I don't "dance' around the Baptist connection. Why are you so inflamed by the prospect that the largest non catholic denomination in the United States is Southern Baptist? I could easily have presented the Methodist, Presbyterian, Mennonite, United Church of Christ, Church of Christ, Diciples of Christ, Assembly of God or any other view. I could easily have defended the NIV, NASB, Phillips ASV or new English Bible just as well. They are much easier than the original KJV to read, to understand and to apply to life. Even the New KJV has the 1611 edition beat when it comes to a language for the modern man.

Really, I think that mormon obsession with KJV as being the voice of God, is essentially saying that KJV is the voice of Joe Smith who proclamed hiself as the supreme authority, therefore outranking God Himself.

Essentially the Holman translation was made by a host of Bible Scholars, not all of whom were Baptists.

You still haven't addressed the issue. If the Bible can be translated into other languages why is King James English sacred?

onthestreet said...

Why does any group of scholars think they can improve on the literal Word of God. His direct word is the most understandable. So when you have educated derelicts "translating" it into "more understandable" language
then you've got something very suspicious and suspect.

"My word is so simple that a child can understand it".

Now, my children, you can't understand it if you are a child of the devil. Then, you need translated perversions to match your perversities.

mugwump said...

bots Hey!!!!!!! Will you wake up and address the question.

If God's word can be translated into over 100 native languages, how can you with any confidence say that any but Joe's version is perversion.

You have demonstrated you complete lack of understanding. The dark forces of satan, led by wj and bots are stirring, fouling, corrupting, making adverse and foolish predictions related to the word as only THEY have prophetic vision to interpret. Whew!!!!!!!! Join the real universe.

Bet I get a bunch more jibberish!

Anonymous said...

Jibberish in response to flatulence?

I think the jibberish has yuo beat.

mugwump said...

to each his own. bots won't answer the question and you don't even understand the question.

To get a straight answer from ots is like trying to corner a cat in a roundhouse.

To him, the best way to answer a question is to change the subject. Why? because he can't answer the question without exposing his lack of understanding or the fallacy of his theology. His is SELF WORSHIP

onthestreet said...

If God's word can be translated into over 100 native languages, how can you with any confidence say that any but Joe's version is perversion.

Still Muggy, aye? Let's see if this can calm your anguish: As long as the translations in 100 languages are direct translations, see? But we're not talking about languages here, we're talking about your Biblical versions, the changing of the very wording to the point that it changes the very meaning of His doctrines, and makes your versions look like Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck.

See. God can surely speak the same meaning in any language, but when you create new versions that actually change the meaning of words and sentences, you corrupt the Word of God.

Now how Muggy are ya? Did that help? I hope you're not in such darkness that you fail to see the issue here.

Anonymous said...

Dang.

I hate to agree with Street, but...

but...


Nope. I can't do it.

Nevermind.

Anonymous said...

So, which is it?

Did the Baptists want a version of the Bible that was so "easy to read" that even the Baptists could understand it?

Or did the Baptists not like what it said, and had to rewrite it so that it said what they believe?

Aren't these the same people that boycotted Disneyland?

Anonymous said...

Do you Southern Baptists boycott the King James Bible on the same grounds as you boycott Disneyland?

mugwump said...

bots & co.

Changing the subject again. Can't you stay on track? Direct translations of what? NIV, NASB and Holeman were all translated from the original languages, not from the Latin Vulgate nor any other translation.
Translations were from Hebrew, Aramic, and Greek. This is attested to generally on the fly sheet of any translation of the Bible that did not originate from the Vulgate, Wycliff, Tyndle, Coverdale, Matthews, Great, Geneva, Bishops or King James Version.

Translations were made directly from the texts of the Most Ancient Copies, the Dead Sea Scrolls and Original Manuscripts.

The New King James version is the KJV converted to modern English.

This next statement is not intended for any Mormon intrepetation, Ha! I'll bet they'll go for that! The Bible offered by LDS to the general public identified as the King James Version. Only, it's the King James Version, as revised by Joseph Smith. His revisions have absolutely no historical fact to attest to Smith's having taken liberty to add his own interpretation. In addition, if you call and ask for one of these "Gift" Bibles, they will be delivered, to your door, by two young men, dressed in black suits, riding bicycles. They are missionaries from the LDS church and are using the "Gift" as a means to get into your house and share the fantastic tale of Joseph Smith's wonderous visitations from heavenly beings. Beware!

Now, FLDS do not have missionaries. They however believe that Joseph Smith's pronouncement, addressed as D&C 132 is word of God, through his prophet, Smith, to encourage the practice of polygamy. Go to your local library and ask the librarian to show you to those books that describe polygamy, as is practiced, the activity of child abuse, involving children in producing phornographic literature, abuse of women, theft of earned wages, abuse of power, disregard for the law of the land.

Now, look that the posts immediately proceeding this one. These people will not answer a direct question. They evade, attact and attempt to undermine anyone who would take their belief system to task.

Anonymous said...

I was not involved in the boycott of Disneyland, but if I remember, the boycott was staged when officials at Disneyland refused to let the public know that "gay rights" day was being observed at the park. A lot of people didn't want their children exposed to homosexual behavior. The SBC, being a recognized name in the United States voiced the concerns of millions of American families, including LDS & FLDS (I seriously doubt that any FLDS child would ever be given the opportunity to visit any theme park)

onthestreet said...

MUGSY (8/31/2005 8:22 PM): Nay, I'm not saying those translations are bad. If they indeed were direct from the ancient Hebrew and Aramaic, then would they not be better that KJV and other late middle-age translations. IF that were the case, then we would seem to agree, and not just on that point either. No, I didn't change the subject. I'm a generalist at times, and I was just saying that modern versions are generally corruptions from the original language, just like you're also saying. Well put, Mugwump. I hope you can stay on track now, and not throw things off because someone puts for some general principles for our consideration. How does that sound to you?

Now, as for the Mormon KJV, it's not KJV. It's IV (Inspired Version). Sure, it's based on the KJV, since that version DOES have many accuracies to the original tongue. But it also has many inaccuracies. Thus the Mormon Doctrine and Article Of Faith: "We believe the Bible to be the Word of God, AS FAR AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY. We ALSO believe the Book of Mormon to be the Word of God." AND the Doctrine and Covenants, AND the Pearl Of Great Price, AND the TPJS, AND the Journals of Discourses, AND the Times and Seasons, AND the Millenial Star, AND the Sermons of all the earth Latter Day Prophets, AND the Sermons of the Prophet LeRoy Johnson, AND the Sermons of the Prophet Rulon Jeffs, AND the Sermons of the Prophet Warren Jeffs, AND the current revelations of God that come through any prophet or saint, Jew or gentile, Black man, or White, Red, Yellow, or any other color, rich or poor, bond or free. Any revelation of a truth is from God, and therefore it is the Word of God AND SCRIPTURE to that man, woman, or child.

Therefore, Muggy, WHY WOULD YOU LIMIT GOD to only one portion of the human family in only one period of time in the history of the earth, and call that THE SCRIPTURE, THE WORD, THE ONLY WORD OF GOD, and therefore MUG up the hopes and capacities and developments and dealings of God with man in all generations of the world, and in all nations and people who seek him in faith.

There! Have I attacked you, or anyone who would take my "belief system" to task? I have only stated a doctrine, and given hope to millions if and when they might read this anytime in the present or the future, including yourself? Tis no attack, just an effort to bless you, and all people everywhere. The Lord is fulfilling the promises to wipe the people off of this land for refusing the blessings. So is that me attacking you again? It's just stating another doctrine and a warning to any who care to hear it, or to walk away and reject it. The natural consequences of rejecting the things of God are Acts of God, like you see today in New Orleans and all along the Gulf Coast with your very eyes. Just nature? No act of God? All things that transpire on earth are acts of God through the agency of men or demons, including technology, microbiology, sociology, theology, or any other aspect of God's superintendency over all of the affairs of this earth.

You say: " If you call and ask for one of these "Gift" Bibles, they will be delivered, to your door, by two young men, dressed in black suits, riding bicycles. They are missionaries from the LDS church and are using the "Gift" as a means to get into your house and share the fantastic tale of Joseph Smith's wonderous visitations from heavenly beings. Beware!"

Amen to that, brother. Beware, for they are wolves in sheeps clothing. Now that you have presented a truth, you think you have a nice trap set, and you then procede to equate marriage after the similitude of the 13-year old marriage and conception of the Virgin Mary with God the Father as something gross: As "child abuse, pornographic, woman abuse, abuse of power, and disregard for the law, when in fact it was THE LAW OF GOD that brought you the polygamist Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, and Christ, with all those fondling women around him, and even in the most intimate domestic settings like you have with Christ settling the domestic squabbles of Mary and Martha. Who else to do that, than THE HUSBAND HIMSELF.

Here is how you crafted it:
"Those books that describe polygamy, as is practiced, the activity of child abuse, involving children in producing phornographic literature, abuse of women, theft of earned wages, abuse of power, disregard for the law of the land". The sexual and financial abusers were found out by the Prophet, and were cast out for that very reason. Then the desperate world in their own guilt aim to pin those sins on a prophet, one who always said to the men: "Don't you touch that woman (in that way)". I heard it many times myself, and saw him cast out men for those very abuses, sexual and financial. So when he gets blamed for the very things that he corrected, just PROVES he's a prophet. For "Whosover will live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL SUFFER persecution", and "Satan will deceive the whole world".

onthestreet said...

Now, Muggs, are you Muggy yet, in regards to the polygamist standing of ALL the prophets of Biblical lore? Here's another PROOF that the Master Himself was married, and if him, then ALL THE PROPHETS who patterned their lives after him:

John 2:1. And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there:

2. And both Jesus was called, and his disciples, to the marriage.

3. And when they wanted wine, the mother of Jesus SAITH UNTO HIM (pointing to a traditional task of the GROOM): They have no wine.

4. Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come (to perform miracles, for this became his first in public).

5. His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it.

6. And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece.

7. Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim (water in Hebrew tradition is the seed of man, so he's saying: "Let my seed from this marriage and beyond be FILLED UP TO THE BRIM WITH MY SEED).

8. And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it.

9. When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants, the prophets,which draw the "water" or draw forth His seed in all generations, know,) the governor of the feast CALLED THE BRIDEGROOM.

10. And saith unto him, Every man at the beginning doth set forth good wine; and when men have well drunk, then that which is worse: BUT THOU (CHRIST, THE GROOM) hast kept the good wine until now.

11. This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and HIS DISCIPLES BELIEVED on him.

onthestreet said...

Maybe you're missing half my answers, because I answer alot of the questions put to me on the other forum:

Google: "Stop Polygabuse Aimoo"

mugwump said...

ots


I understand where you are coming from. My point is this: With the prophesy given to John on Patmos a complete gospel was given in entirety for the forgivness of mankind. God is the same, yesterday, today and forever. He does not channge. He neither slumbers nor sleeps. If an additional gospel were needed, it would require Jesus to repeatedly die opon the cross. My Bible teaches that Jesus underwent this mockery "once for all." "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." The apostles who contributed to written texts now included in the Bible did so at the urging of the Holy Spirit. The words they spoke wer holy and true and need no addition.

You have often had repeated to you the passage "He who adds to or takes from the contents of this book is damned" (paraphrased). My argument is this, The object of the Law was fulfilled with the deth, burial and resurection of Jesus Christ.

Diciples, led by the Holy Spirit were inspired of God to write down their experiences and the Words of the living Savior. John, in the postscrip of his gospel noted that Jesus spoke other words, and performed so many tasks of "grace' that he supposed that all the books in the world could not begin to cover the story adequately. I believe sincerely that the Gospel was complete.

Perhaps early councils of the Roman Church had an agenda. Their writings are identifiedd as the
Vulgate. In many of the later translations, the Vulgate was used as one of the sources. In my previous post I listed those translations.

My point is this. NIV, NASB, Holeman were all translated not from the Vulgate, therefore were not prone to the errors adopted by the Roman Catholic church. These particular translations, which which I am most familiar, speak esssentially the same thought as expressed in the King James. I grew up and didn't have any other translation at my disposal. I learned long passages directly from the KJV.

When I first experienced the Living Bible, I had doubts as to the authenticity of every verse. Surely the L.B. was much easier to read, but I knew that it was a paraphrase by man and thus had a tendency to contain error.

A serious student of the Bible does not use a single translation in preparation to present a sermon or a Bible Study. If he is wise, he attempts to exhaust the truth found in several translations which he has at his disposal. Only then can he have the understanding so that he may teach others fully armed with the Word of God.

Again, I believe with all my heart, intelligence and revelation allowed to me, that the Gospel of Christ, as presented in these modern translations have truth, to the same extent, as that which is presented in the KJV.

I still keep the KJV in my libarary, along with the more modern translations. I use it often and quote it most often on this blog. I, however, do not revere it as the entire and whole of God's word. I hold KJV in high esteem. It was the favorite of my father and mother. It was the version I used until the NIV was published and I purchased a copy and compaired the translation against the KJV. A few years later I heard the NASB being read in our church. I was impressed, bought a copy and compared its translation to KNV and NIV. A pastor, who was versed in Greek and Hebrew, read his text often from the Greek New Testament directly to the congregation with simultaneous translation. I followed along in both KJV, NIV, & NASB and was amazed at the fact that what I was hearing more nearly matched the words of the NASB than that of the other two translations.

When the Holeman version became available, upon hearing about it, I borrowed a copy and compared it to the other translations and found it to be very accurate and much easier to read than either of the two more modern versions. Museums have accumulated and preserved the dead sea scrolls. These Museums and libararies who had preserved the original of the texts now incorporated any new revelation into the KJV, NIV, NASB and Holeman.

These texts were written, as I have often said, in the original languages. Several copies of these works were available for comparison and determining authenticity. These translations were not taken from Latin texts but from originals in the native languages. This being the case, they are much more likely to interpret each and every letter, sylable or verb as accurately as it is possible for humans to accomplish.

Are these translations without error, probably not, but neither is the KJV version without error. But, if the reader invites the holy Spirit to reveal truths, those truths remain intact as each translation is studied, I believe that the truth is revealed to the concecrated seeker. "You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free."

onthestreet said...

Mugwump (9/01/2005 10:50 AM):

If an additional gospel were needed, it would require Jesus to repeatedly die opon the cross. THE LATTER DAY GOSPEL IS THE SAME: ONE GOSPEL, ONE REDEMPTION, FOR ALL: FDS (Former Day Saints), LDS (Latter Day Saints), FLDS (Fundamental Latter Day Saints).

"He who adds to or takes from the contents of this book is damned". SO WHY DO YOU ADD TO IT,AND TAKE FROM IT. IT SAYS THAT GOD REVEALS HIMSELF TO ALL NATIONS. YET, MANY OF TODAY'S NATIONS NEVER EXISTED BACK THEN. THUS CONTINUING REVELATION. ONCE YOU TERMINATE OR TAKE FROM THAT, YOU DIE, HAVING CUT YOURSELF OFF.

All the books in the world could not begin to cover the story adequately. I believe sincerely that the Gospel was complete. HOW IS IT COMPLETE, IF ALL THE BOOKS IN THE WORLD COULD NOT EVEN BEGIN. YOU NEED ALL THE BOOKS TO BE COMPLETE, INCLUDING JASHER AND THE RECORDS OF "OTHER SHEEP, AS THE BIBLE ITSELF MAKES REFERENCE TO.

AS FOR YOUR TRANSLATIONS, IT ALL MAKES SENSE WHAT YOU SAY ABOUT THAT. WELL DONE.

onthestreet said...

The Gospel ONLY for Latter Days Saints? Well, if you are not a saint of these latter days, what claim have you on ANY Gospel from God.

Anonymous said...

It takes quite a stretch to take that verse from Revelation about adding to "the book of this Revelation" or the similar verse in Deutoronomy, and apply them to the completed bible in our day (as if ours is the only time of world history that matters), then use it to condemn the canonization of additional books of scripture, while at the same time preserving to ones self the right to change the Bible to fit one's own doctrine.

The LDS church uses the King James' version, just as King James left it. There are footnotes at the bottom of each page, and an appendix with refrences from the Inspired Version, but those are NOT scripture.

mugwump said...

Your vitriolic attitude of self-rigteousness amazes me, and in all probability, most of the readers and contributors to this blog.

Now you claim the ability to name saints and sinners. With assumed power you have just proclaimed yourself to be god.

This observation is not a new revelation to me or many others. We have called your hand repeatedly when you attempt to assend to the role of diety.

You don't know God's perfect plan of salvation, even though it has been shared with you countless times. You continue to believe that you, old streetie, are becoming so good that you don't need God's forgivness, you'll just forgive yourself.

You claim a promise that is only known to a few elect and then passed on to their serfs and slaves as it pleases 'massa OTS.

Don't claim that I have my own plan. The plan I follow was created by the Lord Jesus Christ in his death for ALL the world's sins, past, present and future. In his victory over death and finally in HIS promise never to leave or forsake HIS children. I am a child of the King. I have his assurance I don't need yours or anyone elses.

Anonymous said...

Goodness!

You're really flaring up there, Mugwump.

Could somebody please pass Mugwump the Preparation H?

Faithful Woman said...

street 8/26

Hockey Puck

Anonymous said...

HERE'S YOU A LITTLE FOOD FOR THOUGHT STRAIGHT FROM STREET..

Now comes the bitter pill to some and time prohibits proof. But from Joseph Smith, through John Taylor and many ancient records, we are told that Michael brought three wives with him - Eve, Sarah and Lilith. If he had not then he could not demand that his children live this same law in order to inherit his degree of Glory. Women of Mormondom" Chapter XX; J. D. 26:115, should be proof enough, and let the spirit confirm, if you have it. Think this over.

And it is conceded by the learned that Jesus Christ had many wives, both in Wales and Palestine. The noted, ancient, medical physician, Celsus, whose works on theology were burned by the Catholics, wrote: "The grand reason why the Gentiles and philosophers of his school persecuted Jesus Christ, was because he had so many wives." This statement has been quoted by Pres. Jedediah M. Grant, Apostle Orson Hyde and others. You may be able to find a copy.

Now this explains why God answered NO to Pres. John Taylor and Pres. Woodruff's prayers -- if they should sign a Manifesto. I briefly quote from two of the four last revelations, two given to Taylor and two to Woodruff. Verses 9 and 10. 1882 Revelation: "And let my Priesthood humble themselves before me, and seek NOT their own will, but MY will; for if my Priesthood, whom I have chosen and called. . . do not acknowledge me I will not acknowledge them."

Verses 20 and 21. Nov. 24. 1889 Revelation to Woodruff: "I, the Lord, will deliver my Saints from the dominion of the wicked in my own due time and way. I cannot deny my Word, neither in blessings nor judgments. Therefore let mine anointed GIRD up their loins, watch and be sober, and KEEP my commandments."

But they refused to obey and called their own 1890 Manifesto a divine revelation. Now then, when the Government officers heard of this Nov. 24, 1889 true revelation, they declared that they would now confiscate private property. This frightened the LDS and they, through pressure, forced Pres. Woodruff to agree with the officers that he would sign a Manifesto as soon as one could be drawn up satisfactory to both sides thus ignoring the Nov. 1889 Revelation to him. This was and is the last revelation given to the LDS Church. Now you see the folly and danger of recording such important events. No proof is needed for us.

This vicious course caused the Kingdom Priesthood to unseat Pres.Woodruff from also presiding over them in the Kingdom Priesthood. And in Woodruff's Conference Sermon, Sunday, Aug. 3, 1890, at Logan, as recorded in Mill Star 52:593-5, he named those who not only held the Keys of the Church, BUT also of the Kingdom Priesthood. He named Joseph Smith, Brigham Young and John Taylor. Beginning here, I quote: "And when he (Pres. John Taylor) passed away it fell upon me for a little while." (his opinion).

From these few verses you surely can see that our 1890 manifesto is 100% manmade. And when our U. S. Pres. Harrison read it to Congress, he told them: "that it was NOT a revelation from God. That Pres. Woodruff does NOT RENOUNCE the doctrine, but refrains from teaching it." Scores of trial copies were made before the last one.

You should also remember that Pres. Joseph F. Smith was forced to say, in order to keep Senator Smoot in office, that we do not go back to 1905 to defend our disobedience (for 15 years) to the 1890 Manifesto. But beginning in 1905 he really tried to stop it.

Pres. Charles W. Penrose, at a Bristol Priesthood Conference on May 25, 1908, acknowledged (I quote him): "I, Charles W. Penrose, wrote the Manifesto with the assistance of Frank J. Cannon, and John White. It is no revelation from God -- FOR I WROTE IT. Wilford Woodruff signed it to beat the devil at his own game."

Joseph Fielding Smith said: "Not all Latter-day Saints will be numbered among the Church of the Firstborn, that only they who live the fullness of the Gospel, of ALL ages, will have this title, inheritance and glory."

AND MORE FOOD FOR THOUGHT FROM STREET

"And there are none that doeth good except those who are ready to receive the Fullness of My Gospel, which I have sent forth unto this generation." Jesus Christ, D.& C. 35:12.

They seek to destroy every man and woman who are truly trying to live the Fullness of the Gospel. For these evil ones fully know that only those who are living the fullness of the Gospel are on their way to Godhood and Goddesshood. Our lukewarm Saints do not need divine protection, for Satan is their friend. He will not hurt them.

Did our God Father, mortal Adam, wear the Priesthood Marriage garments? Yes. He, then as Michael, a resurrected celestial immortal God Being, entered Eden, after he had created it, and began to eat of the fruits of that certain "tree of knowledge of Good And Evil," which was cultured (cult) says Joseph Smith, ages before by the ancient Gods -- to create red mortal blood in resurrected immortal beings -- much faster than normal fruits. This course turned Immortal Michael into mortal Adam. So it was Michael who fell -- not Adam.

This "Tree of Life" possesses a divine substance that will drive out all form of mortal weakness, blood, sickness and change the flesh and bone into a pure, eternal substance that never decays, hence celestial and immortal, for the eternal spirit body to dwell within. But Adam did not eat of this Tree of Life until he had brought a good nucleus of his Spirit Children into mortality. This he had accomplished at the age of 927-930.

Orson Pratt, in J. of D. 13:1~7 said: "While Adam is called an Arch-angel--yet he is a God." It is truly conceded by the learned in Mormondom that Michael, under the supervision of His Ancient Savior, Yahovah, was the Chief Creator of our earth. Now Orson Pratt, in his Seer, page 37, tells us: "Thus, each God forms a world for the accommodation of his own (spirit) sons and daughters, who are sent forth in their times and seasons and generations to be born into the same. The inhabitants of each world are required to reverence, adore and worship their own personal Father, who dwells in the Heavens, which they (you and I) formerly inhabited."

Brigham Young, in his full and final instruction to the missionaries leaving Utah, in a special conference, held August 28, 1852, and recorded in Mill. Star 15:17, in the 1853 Supplement, said: "After men have got their exaltation and their crowns; have become Gods, even the Sons of God. . . they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit, and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles. How can they do it? Have they to go to that earth? Yes, and Adam will have to go there and he cannot do without Eve . . . and they will go into the Garden and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies, to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spirit children. This is a KEY for you."

Then what? Answer: They go back to the "Tree of Life" and continue to eat and drink of its fruits until all forms of mortality and its weaknesses are removed and their bodies make pure again, not subject to death. (7) Just before that time his Christ comes and re-ordains him to the highest known Priesthood office - i.e. from Adam to God. The office of Adam being dual in nature, i.e. a divine God and a mortal Father. This is known as the Michael-Adam-God doctrine.

In a statement by Joseph Smith, published in his official "Times and Seasons", this same Michael-Adam-God story is fully confirmed. It is entitled "The Paracletes, or Holy Ones;" and nicknamed "Joseph's Speckled Bird." It also states: (1) that Michael became Adam and ruled on earth for about 1000 years; (2) that he was the main creator; (3) that our elder brother was the first spirit born son of Michael and not of Eloheim; (4) that each spirit child of Michael, before he obtained permission to come into mortality, had to first qualify and agree to take all that Father Michael saw fit to put upon him, in order to develop him, to the best of his father's ability: (5) that the most ancient Gods developed these two special trees; (6) that it was agreed in heaven before the earth was created, that all the children who lived the same fullness of the Gospel as the Father, or his eldest Son, our Savior, would inherit the same degree of glory with them; (7) that Michael and Eve came here to become mortal and the father and mother of their own spirit children.

All this goes to prove that Adam did not die, but went back to immortality; and from other Holy records we learn that he, during his life as a mortal, wore the original Priesthood marriage Garment the same as was revealed to Joseph Smith. Alma, in the Book of Mormon tells us that it was through these two special trees that brought Adam into and took him out of mortality; and that a resurrected Immortal Being cannot die or go into the grave. Alma 11:45; 12:22-23. Hence, Adam did not die. The Bible says he "died" but what does it mean? Dead to what? People can only assume.

Anonymous said...

Oh my YADDA YADDA YADDA! Next time, set up a soapbox, publish your sermon and just give us a tiny little link to your scriptures, OK? Then we won't have to endure the whole thing unless we're REALLY REALLY interested.

mugwump said...

Wellllll????? If anony.9/1 5:54 is indeed a psudonym for ots, I need no further proof than that which has just been presented to everyone who reads the post. The whole premise is based upon a lie, upon works written by one man, a known diviner, charlten and odds maker at horse races. (Really the kind of man you would want to have a personal revelation and then turn it into your religion).

Go to your public library and read Ben Bistline, John Krakauer, the several works of John R. Llewellyn, and most of all a work by Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson titled "Mormonism 101" copyright 2000 Published by Baker Books. These arthors are not all Mormons. Bistline and Llewellyn both were participants involved at an early age practicing "The Principle." They have since abandoned mormonism or joined the mainline LDS.

The work of these authors gives great insight into the lifestyle of polygamists. The dominance of the male figure. The reduction of the value of women and children to chattel, and the pronouncement that these men alone, with the blessing of their prophet have the ability to become gods themselves, create and inhabit worlds of their own in some future life.

They claim that God and Adam are one and the same. That Jesus Christ was the product of a natural birth resulting from God's coupling with Mary. That Jesus and Satan are brothers.

They further claim to have "keys of the kingdom" to allow the passage to or prevent the passage of individuals. They claim that women can only obtain salvation through their husband.

They practice and participate in marriage to underage girls. The FLDS prophet is under indictment in Arizona for sexual abuse of a child and contributing to sexual abuse of a child. In addition, there are two sealed indictments. Also, because the prophet, Warren Jeffs fled Arizona to avoid prosecution, he is also under warrant of the U.S. Department of Justice for having crossed a state line to avoid prosecution. He is a fugitive and currently on the run, whereabouts unknown, he is also presumed to be armed and dangerous. Last month he was added to the FBI's list of 10 most wanted fugitives.

Read the post above. I don't know about you, but it makes my skin crawl.

mugwump said...

Wellllll????? If anony.9/1 5:54 is indeed a psudonym for ots, I need no further proof than that which has just been presented to everyone who reads the post. The whole premise is based upon a lie, upon works written by one man, a known diviner, charlten and odds maker at horse races. (Really the kind of man you would want to have a personal revelation and then turn it into your religion).

Go to your public library and read Ben Bistline, John Krakauer, the several works of John R. Llewellyn, and most of all a work by Bill McKeever and Eric Johnson titled "Mormonism 101" copyright 2000 Published by Baker Books. These arthors are not all Mormons. Bistline and Llewellyn both were participants involved at an early age practicing "The Principle." They have since abandoned mormonism or joined the mainline LDS.

The work of these authors gives great insight into the lifestyle of polygamists. The dominance of the male figure. The reduction of the value of women and children to chattel, and the pronouncement that these men alone, with the blessing of their prophet have the ability to become gods themselves, create and inhabit worlds of their own in some future life.

They claim that God and Adam are one and the same. That Jesus Christ was the product of a natural birth resulting from God's coupling with Mary. That Jesus and Satan are brothers.

They further claim to have "keys of the kingdom" to allow the passage to or prevent the passage of individuals. They claim that women can only obtain salvation through their husband.

They practice and participate in marriage to underage girls. The FLDS prophet is under indictment in Arizona for sexual abuse of a child and contributing to sexual abuse of a child. In addition, there are two sealed indictments. Also, because the prophet, Warren Jeffs fled Arizona to avoid prosecution, he is also under warrant of the U.S. Department of Justice for having crossed a state line to avoid prosecution. He is a fugitive and currently on the run, whereabouts unknown, he is also presumed to be armed and dangerous. Last month he was added to the FBI's list of 10 most wanted fugitives.

Read the post above. I don't know about you, but it makes my skin crawl.

Anonymous said...

Mugwump!

Please only post it once!

Anonymous said...

Mugwump!

Please only post it once!

Anonymous said...

Mugwump!

Please only post it once!

mugwump said...

Please note:

Mugwump's post's were entered at 10:46 AM

Anonymous 12:55 was posted three times.

Probably something in the blog.

Anonymous said...

I posted mine three times on purpose.

It was humor.

There is nothing wrong with the blog.

Mugwump pushed the button twice.

Do better next time.

mugwump said...

I'll try to not be as nervous, or absentminded, whichever!

wanted to be good said...

So what is prophecy? How does this work.

I can prophecy that the price of gas is going to go up this year. Does this make me a prophet?

Anonymous said...

Does God come to these prophets? Or is it the double pepperoni pizza that they had last night and makes for some terrible predictions.

Why would he come to Warren Jeffs and not me?

I need revelation too.

onthestreet said...

Prophecy and Revelation are manifest through a variety of means, beginning with faith, repentance, and baptism. Then the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost is required, and that spirit must be maintained in all sweetness, else the spirit is easilly grieved. THEN YOU COME TO A PERSONAL TESTIMONY or direct witness. All souls on the earth need personal revelation, but only one man at a time on the earth gets the true Word of God FOR THE PEOPLE OF HIS CHURCH.

Revelation 19:10: I fell down before his feet to worship him.
... I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the TESTIMONY OF JESUS: worship God: For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. (KJV)...
bible.cc/revelation/19-10.htm

Prophets & Prophecy: The Spirit of prophecy. (1 Cor 12:10 KJV) "To another the working of miracles;
to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers...www.thehansons.org/prophets.htm

Truth Or Tradition - What is a Prophet?...Abimelech did not say, “What is a prophet?” He knew exactly what a prophet was... words of prophecy are “as the Spirit gave them utterance” (Acts 2:4 KJV)...
www.truthortradition.com/modules. php?name=News&file=article&sid=372
Truth Or Tradition - What is an Apostle? Apostolic builders do not like to “build upon another man’s FOUNDATION” (Rom. 15:20­­­b—KJV).
www.truthortradition.com/modules. phpname=News&file=article&sid=146
The Four Eleven Foundation: How Parents Produce Leaders:
WHAT IS A PROPHET? He was a divinely chosen person, to be a speaker for...Ezekiel7:1 "Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying...www.411.org/books/spirithome/parents.html

STIRRING UP YOUR PROPHETIC GIFT
What is a Prophet? The Greek word is "prophetes" meaning: integrity of his heart; and guided them by the skilfulness of his hands" (Psalm 78:72, KJV). ...
www.gospel.org.nz/Article08.htm

onthestreet said...

All this comes by introduction, through the teachings, attributes, and ordinances of ONE having that authority from heaven. "And few there be that find it".

All others, saith the Lord, "climb up some other way, and are cursed".

mugwump said...

You keep listing Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor and each sucessive prophet as seers, with the ability to recieve additional revelation from God.

And yet, although you follow the three Smith, Young, and Taylor you split innto splinter groups when D&C 132 became a point of contention. Each branch has it's own prophet, and priesthood, all men. Each individual group claims to have the Keys to the Kingdom, that all others are in error. You have a long history of child and woman abuse, of having leaders who have taken your tithe and invested it in high risk operations that often are fraudulent. Your leadership, bishops, diciples, and prophets have a long list of behavior that is not at all beneficial to the group. These men are secretive, claim to be most righteous, claim to have the Keys, claim to be the ones who will ultimately decide your eternal fate.

Outide the Mormon community no one else excepts those suppposed revelations as being anything but a man's thoughts, for his own purpose, to claim to speak for God.

God was silent in the period between Malachi and the New Testament. A litle over 400 years passed between the two Tesaments.

At the end of Revelation John makes his statement regarding additions to the text. The words of Jesus precede Johns final declaration. Jesus states that He is the Alpha and Omega. These two symbols from the Greek alphabet mean (Alpha) the beginning and (Omega) the end. Christ proclaimed to be the firt and last. It was upon this statement by the Lord Himself that caused John to make the divinly inspired statement regarding adding and subtracting.

I hear a lot of talk regarding the Huricane Katrina as Armagedon. See Revelation 16:16. According to my study and study given to me by individuals whom I trust, Armagedon is a place. It is located North of Jerasulem beginning near the foot of Mt. Carmel and spreading on to the Jordon, In other scriptures it is called the Plain of Jezreel. It is located at the juction of trade routes from Europe, Asia, and Africa. At this place armies of the earth shall gather to do battle with the Lamb (Jesus Christ) and shall meet utter destruction.

This is the climatic event in world history. This place has been the site of numerous battles over the ages. Napolean, like Hitler, Charles I, The Caesars, Alexander the Great, the Medio-Persian Kings, Nebuchadnuzar have all been to this place to fight battles with rivals. Their efforts will pale as being puny as the forces of all the world gather together to have battle.

The Lord Jesus Christ will confuse them and they will turn on each other and the reminent will be crushed by hail-stones weighing 100 lbs. Their blood will be as deep as the reigns of a horse.

I do not believe that this battle, which is to protect the reminant of Israel, will be fought at any other geographic location. Neither do I blieve that any group can assume, for themselves, the title of Israel. Those people who currently live on the East bank of the Mediteranian are the only people who can positivly trace their ancestery to Abraham. Ther are still reminents of these people scattered world wide. These are the people God led out of Egypt, assisted them in establishing themselves in the land, he judged them but he sustained them for 70 years in Babylon Following Babylon's fall, Cyrus, the Persian King restored them to their land where they fought the onslaught of Greece, the Pltomey regiem, the Syrian Antiochous Ephinese the Romans until their dispersment in 70 AD.

After nearly 2000 years they came, from all over the world and once again established a presence in Palestine. They called themselves Israel. Many of them did not even speak a tongue akin to Hebrew yet, they fought, with only God's support and were recognized as a nation on May 14, 1948. A nation in a day. This one event is historical proof that the self-proclaimed latter day saints have no claim to the title Israel. The end times deal with Israel, at last, recognizing Jesus as Messiah.

LDS can't be Israel because Israel is Israel. God never waivers or changes. He is God, not a man, not Adam, not Abraham but God.

The disaster in the Indian Ocean, the eruption of Mt. St. Helens, earthquakes, flooding and other natural disasters are warnings about eminant return of the Lord. When the Lord comes, there will be no doubt as to who He is. He won't need to be introduced to anyone. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Christ is Lord indeed.

Anonymous said...

MORE STREET ON THE STREET PREACHING.......

"Man is that he might have joy," not the perversion of that joy. So there's the difference.

Another theme unique to Mormonism is it's doctrine on Adam and the Fall. Its earliest publication taught that Adam possessed the fulness of the Gospel and the same High Priesthood which would ultimately be held by Melchizedek and Christ. It also declared that he had a knowledge of the Atonement, and the Resurrection. It even taught that the Fall was necessary for the advancement of man, and that it was an inherent part of the Plan of Salvation, having been foreordained from before the foundation of the world. "Adam fell that man might be" it explains, "and man is that he might have joy." Nevertheless, it was necessary that sorrow and sin should enter the world, for "it must needs be that there is an opposition in all things" otherwise "righteousness could not be brought to pass."

A year later, through another revelation it was made known that animal sacrifice had been revealed to Adam as an ordinance foreshadowing the atonement of Christ. Adam was even baptized, and after being filled with the Holy Ghost, "Adam blessed God and . . . began to prophesy concerning all the families of the earth, saying:

Blessed be the name of God, for because of my transgression my eyes are opened, and in this life I shall have joy, and again in the flesh I shall see God. And Eve, his wife, heard all these things and was glad, saying: Were it not for our transgression we never should have had seed, and never should have known good and evil, and the joy of our redemption, and the eternal life which God giveth unto all the obedient. (Moses 5:10-11)

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are "the pure" in heart, for they shall see God. To be pure is to be sexually pure, to overcome the weaknesses of the flesh for the spirit.

Why do women allow such perversion of their morals, their honor, their sanity, and their very souls? Why are women known as "the weaker sex"? In the Tree of Life, the woman is called both "Life Form" and "Receptive Earth". So the female aspects of creation (women, feminine elements of men, the bride/church or body of Christ, etc) are generally receptive to whatever the male aspects dish out.

It is the awsome guilt on the men when they violate that trust and that male position of creative Life Force in their very being and personality. Women can tempt all they want, and when men refuse to defile them, as knights in shining armour, as the chivilrous power, then women gain respect for them, and the male-female energies then balance out or resolve into the Center Column of the Tree, the pathway of the Holy Spirit.

God says: "I will have a tried people".

mugwump said...

From which Wizard of Oz or Harry Potter adventures for children are you obtaining this most unusual doctrine? Delusional people may believe it, but what you propose is perposterous. There is absolutely no supporting historical documentation for this doctrine. The exception to this iron clad rule, so you have been taught, is the testamony of self-serving, self-proclaimed leaders of your faith.

There is no supportive archeological date anywhere. There are no ruins, imprints on stone tablets, writings on Egyptian mummy wrappings supposedly a part of the "Pearl of Great Price", no golden plates, seer stones, pre-historic record of boats able to travel continent to continent without, rudder, source of power, sextant, compass, keel, potable water, food, covering, a way to dispose of human waste, on and on, and on.

Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor and their followers were frauds. Even Joseph Smith's wife renounced his announcement of the doctrine of polygamy. When questioned at a later time the eight witnesses who had first reported to have seen the golden plates, supposedly dug up from the hill outside Palmyra, N.Y. renounced their affirmation of sight. It was a lie. Smith and later Young, Taylor and their followers attempted to create utopia.

For the elect few, who are recepients of the largess of the many, the "good life" is a reality. The rest are so brainwashed that they believe anything the priesthood says as gospel.

You go into your temples, you enter into covenants with one another, your use imagery of Masonic ritual mixed up with a little of this and a little of that. According to the prophet, you have no hope of attaining heaven without your husband pulling you through the curtain while wearing your garments.

Symbolism: The Star of David, the all-seeing eye, the signs, the handshakes, the secret words, the five-pointed "eastern-star." Their ceremonies are developed to seem mystical and cause you to leave the temple with a sense of awe.

Why do you willingly submit to total male domination? Aren't you more valuable than rubies? Why should your father use your chastity for his own pleasure? Why are you a bargaining chip, traded as sixth wife to a man who has fathered 43 children and who's children can't even call him daddy, but have to call him uncle? Why are your sister-wives all "aunt." Why, if you don't want to marry a certain man, because you know of his cruelty, uncle daddy forces the union, causes you a lifetime of pain and regret. After all, you are nothing but a loyal subject, a star in his crown, another poker chip in the game of life. If he were reported to federal officers he would be arrested and charged with sexually abusing a child. The prophet, who bound you for time and eternity will be charged with conspiracy to commit sexual abuse of a child? You question this? Ask your priesthood, "Where is Warren Jeffs?"

Do you think we on the outside don't know of your dilemma or don't care about you? We may not know your name, but we know what is happening to you behind the closed doors and locked gates. Knowing that in spite of the abuse and low self esteem you are still to keep smiling and be sweet. The law prohibits law enforcement personnel to enter a place without a warrant or suspect probable cause related to a crime. Without a complaint against a specific person no punishment will follow and that man who is taking liberties with our body escapes free. WHY????? Because he can.

Your people are either under-educated or uneducated, your women are treated like they were brood sows. You men worship a false god who is no one, but yourself. How convenient to consult your god and get instant agreement to your lustful desires.

If you want me to discontinue telling readers about your perverse way of life, family, health and child birth rate, child abuse, communistic funding "efforts" that benefit the priesthood at the expense of the flock. All you have to do is to admit that your religion is fake. It's a sham.
It is based upon the delusions of a second class jerk who was constantly on the run from the law. Why? Because he thought himself as god, and caused his followers to follow his example.

As you sit in your Sunday morning worship and look upon the stiff, self-righteous faces of those men you have been taught to revere sitting on the elevated platform in all their piety, in chairs across the front of the room. Think, "Who were they abusive to last night.

Why should they have your adoration? What singles them out as being "above" you. Who has given them that right? Are you positive of your answer?

What does your prophet do with your tithing? What kind of get-rich-quick schemes are you funding? Why don't you get an accounting from the priesthood and prophet for how your tithes are spent? Why, if your husband or father is a child or a wife abuser can't you get justice from your bishop or prophet? Why do you allow those self-absorbed, self righteous thugs to have reign over your life? Do you think Jesus would have treated you with such malice, and contempt? Would He preach every Sunday about your shortcomings and failures in every single service. To the woman caught in adultry, Jesus told her to go and sin no more. He caused a great revival to break out when he confronted the woman at the well in Samaria. She had lived with six men, and the man she was with at that time wasn't her husband. Jesus offered her "Living Water" the water of truth and the Son of God that when she asked how she could obtain this water she was told to go and sin no more. Jesus forgave her life of adulterous affairs. He will forgive you too. Just admit that He is Lord, that you are a sinner, admit to your sin and ask for him to save you. "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shall be saved."

Have you ever known the priesthood to assume responsability for anything? I'll bet they are first in line when it comes to taking praise or credit, but first to shift the blame back to a sinful congregation when something goes wrong. Sin is measured by their opinion, and that opinion is omnipotent.

You girls: Is it natural to feel certain un-explained urges as you approach age 12-16. Then is when you first begin to notice the boys around you. When that event is noticed by the "favored wife" in your father's harem aren't you quickly snatched up and bartered to someone whom by connection would give your father a boost in the political relm of FLDS?

If read, this post will cause a lot of your priesthood to be uncomfortable. That is exactly why it is posted. Remember, those who choose to belittle this testamony are those who gain most from polygamy, the men. I hope this post makes them extremely uncomfortable. Let their wrath fall on me. You, dear friend are a victim. May God grant you peace and understanding.

onthestreet said...

You're just fishin.

onthestreet said...

So MUGGY are ye? (9/03/2005 3:38 PM):

THE BOOK OF MORMON WITNESSES

Historical evidence has led many people to question the authenticity of the Book of Mormon and the credibility of Joseph Smith's story. Those who would defend traditional beliefs about Mormon origins often turn to the testimonies of 11 men. These men signed statements declaring the Book of Mormon was true, and that they had seen and/or handled the plates used in the translation. For some people, such testimony is enough to alleviate their doubts. But is it truly a solid foundation for faith in the Mormon church?

Joseph dictates the part of the Book of Mormon that mentions three special witnesses while all three are there with him. They beg Joseph to ask God if maybe they aren't the ones. When he finally gives in, Joseph immediately gets a revelation that says, if they have faith, rely on God's word and have full purpose of heart, they will see not only the plates but numerous other wonderful things. So they go to the woods and first spend a prolonged time in prayer. Nothing happens. They pray more. Nothing happens. Martin Harris volunteers to leave the group because he senses the others think he was the reason nothing was happening. As soon as Harris leaves, the others see the angel and plates.

According to Joseph Smith's history, Joseph then goes to find Harris, and while praying together, Harris cries out, "Tis enough, tis enough; mine eyes have beheld; mine eyes have beheld;" Even in this there is a conflict of testimony, for according to Harris, "I never saw the gold plates, only in a visionary or entranced state. ...In about three days I went into the woods to pray that I might see the plates. While praying I passed into a state of entrancement, and in that state I saw the angel and the plates." When Harris was asked if he saw the plates with his naked eyes, he would later admit he only saw the plates with a spiritual eye.

A significant historical point regarding the eight witnesses comes from a letter dated April 15, 1838. It was written by a former Mormon leader named Stephen Burnett. In that letter, Burnett told how he heard Martin Harris state in public that Harris never saw the plates with his natural eyes but only in vision or imagination, and the same was true for Oliver Cowdery and David Whitmer. Martin Harris went on to say that the eight witnesses never actually saw the plates either, and therefore, were hesitant to sign the statement, but were persuaded to do so.

onthestreet said...

Muggy: To Continue:

According to the letter, Burnett and several other men publicly renounced the Book of Mormon. After they were done speaking, Martin Harris got up and said he was sorry for anyone who rejected the Book of Mormon, for he knew it was true, and said he would have never told them that the testimony of the eight witnesses was false if it had not been picked out of him, and that he should have left it as it was (Stephen Burnett, Letter in Joseph Smith Papers, Letter Book. Copy and typed transcript on file in office of Institute for Religious Research.) While some LDS scholars and apologists have tried to brush aside this testimony as "hearsay," it is corroborated by a letter cited in Wayne C. Gunnell's 1955 BYU dissertation. This letter, written by George A. Smith to Josiah Fleming and dated March 30, 1838 (a couple of weeks earlier than the Burnett letter), describes a similar scene with Martin Harris, Boyington, Parish, and Johnson, all of whom are mentioned in the Burnett letter.

The situation is further complicated by some puzzling statements made by the witnesses themselves. Only three of the eight witnesses made separate statements that they had handled the plates. They were Joseph's two brothers, Hyrum and Samuel, and John Whitmer. Hyrum and Samuel's statements are further qualified by their brother William who, in an interview, also claimed to have handled the plates. He said, "I did not see them uncovered, but I handled them and hefted them while wrapped in a tow frock and judged them to have weighed about sixty pounds. ... Father and my brother Samuel saw them as I did while in the frock. So did Hyrum and others of the family." When the interviewer asked if he didn't want to remove the cloth and see the bare plates, William replied, "No, for father had just asked if he might not be permitted to do so, and Joseph, putting his hand on them said; 'No, I am instructed not to show them to any one. If I do, I will transgress and lose them again.' Besides, we did not care to have him break the commandment and suffer as he did before." (Zion's Ensign, p. 6, January 13, 1894, cited in Church of Christ broadside.)

John Whitmer's statements were the most detailed -- both the 1878 statement mentioned earlier and his 1839 statement to Theodore Turley where he said, "I now say, I handled those plates; there were fine engravings on both sides. ... they were shown to me by a supernatural power" (History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 307). Now if these were physical plates, presented to the eight witnesses while Joseph Smith held them on his knee, why did Whitmer qualify his statement by saying it happened by means of a supernatural power? One can only wonder why there was a need for a supernatural presentation of physical plates. Unless, of course, the Whitmer family was also shown the plates under a cloth, but was encouraged to see them with their eyes of faith. This, however, contradicts John Whitmer's 1878 interview where he states that his group of four were handed the plates "uncovered into our hands, and we turned the leaves sufficient to satisfy us." (Poulson letter to Deseret Evening News, previously cited, p. 2).

mugwump said...

He did, he didn't, they were, they weren't. He had, he didn't have. If this evidence was presented in a court of law today, would the evidence stand. It is all based upon heresay and therfore today nor in the day of Joseph Smith, would his "plates" or the lack therof been allowed in evidence.

And that lie is the foundation for the Mormon experiment.

"The man built his house upon the sands. And the winds bled and the flood come and blew against that house and great was the fall of it."

onthestreet said...

Their seed are as the sands of the sea-shore, and the stars of heaven. Thank God the gold doesn't qualify for evidence, nor the pearls before swine.

mugwump said...

From what I read all the gold is in the profit's posession. Last time I checked he was building a pretty respectable town north of mine. I imagine any pearls,rubies, emralds and diamonds are stashed away somewhere to ensure that "bones" Jeffs extended holiday has the bucks to keep on the move.

The gold plates long ago evaporated. No one saw them except JS. They were a figment of his immagination.

onthestreet said...

Not his imagaination; you just admitted that "no one saw them EXCEPT JS. Ahh, so HE DID SEE THEM. That would make them very real.

All the hearsay to the contrary is just 150 years of hearsay. So how can anyone say there were no witnesses of it, when they themselves have witnessed nothing. You are blind, and proposing to lead the blind, with darkess covering the land, and gross darkness the minds of the people.

onthestreet said...

"And Satan shall deceive the whole world"; Rev. 13

mugwump said...

I guess most of the people who halucinate and are now in mental hospitals would pass your test for a visionary.

Old Joe seemed to get a vision upon request (I doubt that he ever ask the Lord anything). How convenient!!! He gets caught shacking up with a female, not his wife, and he suddenly is inspired to issue D&C 132. I guess he got a vision to bilk those poor widows out of their life savings. That effort surely was the result of a vision. How many times did Smith and subsequent LDS prophets have visions of the end of the world?Why did not the Lord return April 6, 2005 as prophesied by Warren Jeffs.

We who have studied, made a comparison between Smith's gospel and the Gospel of the Bible, pre-Nicene therefore according to your own prophets statements regarding that meeting of "intellectuals" probably valid. Translations made from the most Ancient texts vs. testemony from joe's plates doesn't cut it. According to Joe, Jesus was born in Jerusalem, not in Bethlehem, according to Joe, Jesus appeared as himself, Jesus 400 years before even Mary was born.

Why don't you have a vision and get off this web site. your prophesy is a sham, an unsubstantuated myth, authored by a charlten, a womanizer, an adulterer, a thief, a liar, a fraud, a sorcer, a diviner, a practitioner of black magic, a mischief maker and a visionary of the devil. I know Joe taught that there was no hell. I'm afraid that, given time, Joeseph Smith will have seduced millions of otherwise really nice people into the devil's domain. Satan was not Jesus' brother. He is a fallen angel. He stands as an accuser and a tempter to those who really have been led to believe that they can become children of God by being good, marrying multiple wives and tithing to the prophet. Boy, will they be in for a shock!!!

Anonymous said...

This website would be a whole lot more enlightening without your nonsense as well, Mugwump.

onthestreet said...

The wicked ramble, like chattering children in a school, so excited about interacting with their fellow beings, and yet so feeble and liable to mistakes. They will say anying, as long as they can say something, just to be heard, not having visions, dreams, or anything supernal of their own to draw upon. When others in the school-yard do have something, the child will kick, scream, tattle, manipulate, plan, plot, sue, lie, just about anything to make themselves look better in the schoolyard.

You little chatter-box, you.

onthestreet said...

Yes, I too was referring to the Muggy one in the swamp (I mean, Mug-wump).

mugwump said...

What you refer to as my nonsense is well documented, you are just too afraid of the truth to go and check for yourself. I don't have anything to gain by telling you just what I have discovered in my search. You can go ahead and believe the self-serving lies told regularly to you by your prophets and priesthood. Their lies keep you in line and ensure your loyalty. Don't take my word, check it out for yourself. Just try taking issue with your bishop or prophet, just direct your tithing to the American Red Cross or any other viable relief agency and designate it to assist in relief of the victims of the hurricane. If you do that for two tithing periods I'll bet you get called on the carpet and/or are sent away to repent from afar. Want to bet? Your prophet's chief business is personal greed. He doesn't give a hoot about you or anyone who takes issue with him about anything. He is an absolute dictator. Why? Because you let it happen. Whose to blame? Look in a mirror.

Anonymous said...

Mugwump:

I am the "anonymous" that referred to your nonsense.

I am not a follower of Warren Jeffs, and I am not any sort of "Mormon Fundamentalist".

But your posts ARE nonsense, and this blog would be better without you.

mugwump said...

Obviously you don't know anything about the Bible. Are you an agnostic? Are you an athiest? If either I can understand why you hate my posts. The subject matter of what I post is something completely foreign to you. I at least have studied Mormon and know a lot of what they believe. I attact them where they are weak. I live four miles south of where they are building a compound, under armed guard. I have heard the people from Short Creek's Cry concerning the loss of their live's savings to a prophet who is wanted by the law and is in flight to avoid prosecution. Do you support Jeffs? Why? Give me ten good sound reasons. I'm open to any reasonable possibility. Don't try to tell me you are impressed by Jeffs' leadership of his people, by the compassion he shows to those who are weaker than him.

If you really want to know what I think, I think that you are a main line mormon and the truths I have exposed are calling to question the basis of your lifelong faith. I believe that you don't want to believe me but, I have struck a nerve that has been exposed to question all your life. You've wondered about the total control placed upon your life by the priesthood. The reverence given to Joseph Smith, whom you know had a reputation of being everything I claimed in a previous post. If you agree, that's allright, if you don't that's allright too because, I don't answer to you. Maybe you are even in the priesthood I attact without mercy. Getting me to keep quiet about how the priesthood are self-serving egotistical autocrats who endorse and practice molestation of children, whose main purpose is to ensure that they personally maintain their self-important political position within the mormon church. You hate what I tell you because, to admit I tell the truth will cause you to loose face within your community, and that has become more important to you than the well being of your family and friends. When you next look into the mirror, tke a good look at your god.

Anonymous said...

Reply to Mugwump

Your prophesy is a sham, an unsubstantuated myth, authored by a charlten, a womanizer, an adulterer, a thief, a liar, a fraud, a sorcer, a diviner, a practitioner of black magic, a mischief maker and a visionary of the devil.

You forgot to add that Joseph Smith was also a convicted "counterfeiter" and a "money digger".

mugwump said...

Thank you for supplying the additional information. I have read that accusation, but to tell the truth, it had slipped my mind.

Anonymous said...

Mugwump:

That's all just more nonsense.

I am NOT a follower of Warren Jeffs.

But that does not make me a fan of Mugwump.

You and OTS are BOTH pompous asses.

fttc said...

Anon 10:17

Where can you document that JS was convicted of counterfieting? While you're looking show me where he was convicted of anything illegal. Please.

onthestreet said...

mugwump (with OTS replies in parenthesis) (9/06/2005 7:33 PM):

Obviously you don't know anything about the Bible. Are you an agnostic? Are you an athiest? If either I can understand why you hate my posts. The subject matter of what I post is something completely foreign to you. (It is foreign to Muggy as well). I at least have studied Mormon and know a lot of (nothing-) what they believe ( I attact them where they are weak (like any coward, preying only on the weak). I live four miles south of where they are building a compound, under armed guard. I have heard the people from Short Creek's Cry concerning the loss (donation) of their live's savings to a prophet who is wanted (flaunted) by the law and is in flight to avoid prosecution (okay, persecution). Do you support Jeffs? Why? Give me ten good sound reasons. (How about the Ten Commandments). I'm open (okay, actually very closed) to any reasonable possibility. Don't try to tell me you are impressed by Jeffs' leadership of his people, by the compassion he shows to those who are weaker than him. (Very much impressed by both the leadership and the compassion he shows, especially to the women and children that he has protected from immoral men who were cast out)

If you really want to know what I think (really, not at all), I think that you are a main line mormon and the truths (okay, lies) I have exposed are calling to question the basis of your lifelong faith. I believe that you don't want to believe me (absolutely not), but, I have struck a nerve that has been exposed to question all your life. (a nerve exposed to question??? See who is being incoherent). You've wondered about the total control placed upon your life by the priesthood.(Only YOU wonder about that). The (absolute) reverence given to Joseph Smith, whom you know had a reputation of being everything I claimed in a previous post. (IE: created, perpetrated, as an agent of Lucifer himself). If you agree, that's allright, if you don't that's allright too because, I don't answer to you. (You are answering to us even now, and will so more and more).

Maybe you are even in the priesthood I attact without mercy. (Without mercy is RIGHT. Now you're getting to the truth. "God is a God of mercy". Satan and his imps are the unmerciful). Getting me to keep quiet about how the priesthood are self-serving egotistical autocrats who endorse and practice molestation of children, (okay, they actually protect them), whose main purpose is to ensure that they personally maintain their self-important political position within the mormon church. (Now the whole world knows your folly, Muggy). You hate what I tell you (you hate it yourself) because, to admit I tell the truth will cause you (or Muggy) to loose face within your community, and that has become more important to you than the well being of your family and friends. (The community of Saints is the ultimate well-being). When you next look into the mirror, tke a good look at your god. (ahh, ahh, that's the second truth you've told in this post. We look into the mirror and see God. Very well put, for some are literally created after the image of God. Since you don't look into the mirror and see God, by your own admission you are created after the opposite, Satanic image. See, there is truth everywhere, and we accept truth even in hell, and cast the devils out, and turn it into a heaven).

mugwump said...

ots

Why don't you do that again and put your words in bold type instead of parenthesis and as an aid to intrepetation why don't you make your observations in full sentences, in bold type following those of my statements with which you don't agree. I know your efforts to insert are done intentionally, to confuse the reader. Do it as I suggest and let the public judge who's paranoid. Boy, I really stomped on your tail and you don't like it a bit! You remind me of a blinded rattlesnake. Sheding your skin, huh?

Anonymous said...

Battle of the Pompous Asses!

Tonight on Pay-Per-View!

Call in your order NOW!

onthestreet said...

lol: You humble me, but Jesus chose an ASS as his triumphant means of conveyance.

Hey, Muggy. Okay, in the fucha I'll try bold for some of my words to make a distinction between the two of us.

Hey, there's no bold button. How do you do bold on this blog?

mugwump said...

I guess you immitate anonymous 5:22. He's being kind of bold don't you think?

mugwump said...

I doubt that you were humbled. It's too much to hope for.

mugwump said...

Incidently, Jesus rode the ass, he didn't assume it's character.

mugwump said...

triumphant means of transportation? The ass was chosen because it was a lowly beast of burden. A sign of humility. The Triumphant Entry, so called, was to fulfill prophesy. Messiah was to enter Jerusalem on the colt of an ass. When Jesus refused to assume the role as "King of the Jews" his followers deserted Him. His closest diciples ran away. Peter denied knowing Him, not once, but three times. John was the only diciple present at the cross. There was nothing triumphant about the ass.

onthestreet said...

Only "the meek and lowly shall inherit the earth", even to the point of appearing to men to be fools, as Christ and all the prophets do, that the proud and haughty wicked may stumble and fall to their low estate. Then, the "ass" is triumphant, the fleshy part of the human body that you sit on, as one would sit on a throne, as well as the hardy and sure footed creature.

onthestreet said...

Incidently, Jesus rode the ass, he didn't assume it's character.
9/07/2005 9:44 PM

Jesus would never choose to mount upon anything of evil character, but only good, the hard and the sure-footed. You accuse him of choosing something evil.

onthestreet said...

...the hardy and sure-footed.

Anonymous said...

Jesus would never choose to mount upon anything of evil character, but only good, the hard and the sure-footed.


Now if we could just get King warren to do this, things would get better.

ATAR_i said...

preferably the back of a police car.

mugwump said...

paddy wagon to padded cell.

Anonymous said...

A hardy and sure-footed pompous ass is still a pompous ass.

Anonymous said...

i think the lot of you are going to hell! (you know who you are)

ATAR_i said...

Really - and why is that?

Anonymous said...

WoW, "OTS" likes to quote and preach like a prophet, but I think that he just likes to hear himself talk, trying to show he's smart. Not working.

Ya know I'm on the otherside of the highway and I don't believe what I'm hearing, can you really be that dulluted?

Anonymous said...

The scriptures also say that in the last days that people will say "what's right, is wrong and what's wrong is right" So the bottom line is; We'd better know what we're doing is pleasing in the sight of God, or we're going to up S@#t creek without a paddle

Anonymous said...

Because people have there own agenda's, and most of the time it's completely diffrent from God's

sounds like OTS is trying to justify his wickedness

onthestreet said...

When the people rejected the Prophet, and assumed their own agendas, the devil took over with them. You will now see the result.There is no evil in the Prophet and his people doing the work of the Father, as co-creators with Him, having on the full armour and fine-linen. I am a sinner. "All have sinned", says the Lord. No justifications in that. The Word of God does not justify evil. But those who do the works of faith, have the Grace in the Crown.

ATAR_i said...

You absolutely make no sense. Your thoughts don't connect in any meaningful way (spiritual or otherwise) - they are just strung together with rhythming words or hyperbole.

mugwump said...

If I ead my bible corectly, and I believe that i did, you are confusing joseph Smith with Jesus Christ. They are not one and the same. They demonstrated no similar traits. Jesus healed, helped, raised the dead, fed the thousands, walked on water, died on the cross and was burried in a borrowed tomb. But, the third day He arose. Every single event just named can be traced to the prophetic forcast of Messiah.

Joseph Smith, HAD NO MERITS, HELPED ONLY HIMSELF, ROBBED POOR WIDOWS, CREATED A RELIGION OF WHICH HE BECAME GOD, DIED IN JAIL, WAS BURIED, IS STILL BURIED, WILL BE BURIED UNTIL JUDGEMENT DAY.

THEN, THIS INSIGNIFICANT LITTLE DEMIGOD WILL BE DISMISSED TO EVERLASTING HELL FIRE ALONG WITH THE BEAST, THE FALSE PROPHET AND THE DRAGON (DEVIL OR SATAN.)

It will be Jesus sitting in judgement, not Joseph. I don't find any reference to ole' Joe anywhere in the Pentetuch, Books of History, Poetry, Prophecy, the
Gospels, Acts, The Epistles or Revelation. There are references in each of the above related to the coming Messiah and the Revealed Messiah, Jesus, the Christ.

I going fishing.

onthestreet said...

Yes indeed, your are fishing, and in very deep water.

onthestreet said...

No reference of "Ole Joe" anywhere in the ancient books?

From the book "The Third Thousand Years" by Cleon Skousen:

Modern Jews are expecting a "Joseph" to prepare the way for the coming of their Messiah:

"...there is a persistent tradition among the Jews which has previously puzzled scholars. From the most ancient times, Jewish tradition has proclaimed that a great servant of God from the House of Joseph would come in the latter days to prepare the way for the coming of Shilo, the Great Messiah.

In fact, so profound was the respect of the rabbis for this "Joseph", that they began calling him "Messiah ben Joseph" and called their Shilo "Messiah ben David". Literally translated, these appellations mean "The anointed One, son of Joseph" and "The anointed One, son of David".

A comprehensive study of this mysterious "Messiah ben Joseph" was made by Dr. Joseph Klausner, Professor Emeritus of Hebrew literature and Jewish history at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem. Dr.Klausner did everything possible to explain away this "Joseph" but, being an honest scholar, he was compelled to put down the basic attributes which Jewish tradition variously ascribed to him. These include the following:

1. He will rise up shortly before the coming of Shilo, the great Messiah ben David." (page 486)

2. He will be a descendant of Joseph through Ephraim (page 487)

3. His mission will commence about the time the prophet Elijah comes as promised in Malachi 4:5-6 (page 498)

4. In preparing mankind for the coming of Shilo, Messiah ben Joseph will enter into a great contest with the Anti-Christ forces (page 496)

5. In the heat of this contest with the anti-Christ, Messiah ben Joseph will be killed.

... Messiah ben Joseph has come!
If these fine scholars only knew it, the most exciting message of the modern age is now sweeping across the earth: "Messiah ben Joseph has come!"...Joseph Smith is that modern day prophet. He transcribed the plates that passed down from Joseph of Egypt throughout the centuries and eventually buried in 400 A.D. in a hillside by the last remaining righteous person on this continent after the crossing to America. These plates were translated into the Book of Mormon. Through Joseph Smith, the prophecies concerning Messiah ben Joseph were literally fulfilled. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints fills the earth and will continue to do so until Messiah ben David, Jesus Christ comes to reign upon the earth.

mugwump said...

Try that bit of rubbish on a real Jew. Not only will he spit in your face, he'll laugh at your absurdity.

onthestreet said...

Yes, you all can be as gross as the guilty who crucified their Lord.

mugwump said...

ots invented "gross" behavior.

onthestreet said...

I think the Devil did that, and inspires many to love his ways. Get your facts straight.

mugwump said...

Well, from example, he certainly is your constant inspiration.

onthestreet said...

Who's to say? By their fruits ye shall know, or else you act on bias alone.

mugwump said...

Indeed? And that which thou seweth doth ripen with time as the sun casteth it's heat upon thy seed.

onthestreet said...

Do threats change the truth?

mugwump said...

No threat intended nor implied. Your "seed" is of such poor quality that it simply will not sprout within the mind of intelligent people. The light of intelligence scorches all your platitudes.

onthestreet said...

Ahh, it is not the quality of the seed, but the ground. Know ye the Lord?

Matthew 13:
18. Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.

19. When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

20. But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

21. Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

22. He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.

23. But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

This refers to wives, the consequences of celestial marriage and immaculate seed or conception.

onthestreet said...

Actually it is both. He is the seed, you are the ground. You need the true word of life, in the directing of all the issues of your life, as well as a fertile ground. That marriage is required, or there is no marriage and no wedding feast.

polywatchin said...

Nowhere in the parable or it's subsequent explanation does it say anything about MARRIAGE or FERTILITY or a WEDDING FEAST! You are gross. FLDS are preoccupied with sex.

mugwump said...

bad seed, cast upon good soil will generally not take root, but in the event that it should sprout, the gain thereof is naught.

onthestreet said...

Righto to you botho:

The Saints of God ARE preoccupied with fruits, for "by their fruits ye shall know them", says you Lord.

Also, bad seed produces bad fruit. But you cannot blame your fathers, nor anyone else, for your own transgressions.

mugwump said...

Yes, and if you are an example of that fruit God help us all!

Blame yourself for your own "transgressions." My father was responsible directly to the Lord for his as am I for mine. Praise God I won't meet you at the throne, if you continue in your self-satisfied, self-justified, self sanctified role in life. My prayer for you is that you be saved. If you are dependent upon your prophet, Joseph Smith or your own works, you are doomed. Not by me but by the "Word" of God.

Get a Bible concordance, Thompson's Chain-Reference, Strong's Exhaustive Concordance a good Bible Dictionary and look up references to:

Salvation; condemnation; judgement; grace; faith; hope; works; lost; found; kept; security of the believer; unpardonable sin etc.

My salvation is of the Lord, not of you or any man. Thank God!

onthestreet said...

So is that the extent of your learning and your argument: a laundry-list?

mugwump said...

Well, if you call that truth a laundry list you are running around with yor butt on display. You are beyond redemption.

onthestreet said...

It's not the concepts that are dirty, but the profession with your mouth but denying the power thereof.

mugwump said...

Yep! I deny YOUR and or WARREN'S or OLD JOE SMITH'S POWER. A lot of double talk with very little of substance.

onthestreet said...

2 Tim.3:5 "Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away".

mugwump said...

YOur "Order in Heaven" is a good example exhibiting godlessness. Who are you to judge?

onthestreet said...

By the Word.

mugwump said...

u jes'didn ketch it Queenie, Th quesn wuz hu er U ta jege?

onthestreet said...

See, the Word judges us, for good or for evil. If you want to blaspheme an innocent people even after they have cast off the tares, you are left without excuse, and you will always be a terror to yourself and to others of your kind.

onthestreet said...

u jes'didn ketch it Moogs, Th ansr wuz th wuurd.