Friday, August 08, 2008

If a group of people want real truth, is it logical to isolate themselves from humanity in general?
And , does it make sense that an omnipotent creator would be so incompetent that the vast majority of his creations, that he chose to make in his own image, should be so defective as to render them unacceptable?
Or would it make more sense that ; because the defining feature that separates Man from the rest of his creatures is the ability to reason; that his plan to bring mankind to maturity would be one of interaction with others? And wouldn’t the interaction with many different kinds of people enhance your ability to reason?
It seems to me that limiting your experience would limit your intelligence.

35 comments:

Anonymous said...

Gosh uncaduff , this whole post you made sounds just like something Spoc would have said to Capt. Kirk . But instead of reasonable Spoc would have used the word logic . Reasonable & logical earth creatures just aint in our make up , never has been .

Heck you're a shirt tail Mormon of sorts , don't you recall there was a war in heaven before we all became earth dwellers ? You remember now don't you , where one third of the host of heaven was kicked out for fighting against God ? And I'll just bet one third sat the fence and didn't take a side , so , at best only one third had enough logic or reason to do what they should have done .

When it gets right down to it , I doubt much has changed here on earth . Question is , what about heaven for those the next time around ? I mean , if being logical and reasonable is your ticket to heaven , well don't tell the Mormons or anyone else that only Spoc and the Vulcans are the chosen ones that St.Pete is gunna let enter . LOL.

uncaduff said...

Anonymous 8/08 2:07
Axiom
1- a self evident, or universally recognized truth.
2- an established principle or rule.
Two definitions of axiom, from my dictionary.

Logic is the process of comparing a subject under question to an axiom, to establish it’s truth or untruth.
Reason will tell you that both of these definitions are probably true, but that one leads to a conclusion based on self evident concepts, while the other will establish whether or not a concept will fit into a particular school of thought.
My “Mormon shirt tale” was left stuck in the door, that was slammed behind me when I left the Crick, so I now use reason to search for self evident axioms.
Interesting that your points of reference, or “axioms” if you will, are taken from a fictional story, on the one hand, and from a school of thought that is by no means self evident, on the other, however according to the definitions above, you were, …. using logic. :D

Anonymous said...

Well you see Uncaduff, it wasn't lost on me you were making a reference towards the folks at the crick and how with perhaps with a little reasoning or better judgment it would be best to have more interaction with the outside world and there by making them more intelligent. I got that much from your post .
But golly , if only a little reasoning could change these folks minds , well that would be great but being ex FLDS as you are you gotta know there is much more to it than simple 1+1=2 reasoning if you expect any type of change from these folks .

Let me venture a little speculation on my part at you . MY guess is the reason you jumped the crick and left had more to do with emotion (if it was your choice ) and the reason you made a clean brake and didnt look to return had little to do with reasoning , which happened to be your choice .

Just seems to me when it comes to emotions vs. reasoning we human creatures place emotions over simple reasoning compared to very complex emotional feelings .
If there is a God it stands to reason we may have allot in common given the fact it must be out of emotion he hasn't called it quits on us centuries ago , and I think thats a fact Professor Uncaduff you can hang your thinking and reasoning cap on for what its worth .

Emotion + emotion = Human behavior--- and maybe even God's.

Anonymous said...

Uncaduff.

Bottom line as far as interaction is.

You must have first kept all the light you were born to, to then be most benefitted by interaction outside your culture.

If you've rebeled against the light you were born to, or born with, or simply just waffled about with it, then further interaction is mostly wasted as its not light or 'God focussed.'

And as Brother Paul said : you'll be ever learning but never coming to a knowledge of the truth.

Get it?

So where are you at? Do you keep all the light you were born with and to.

It means hanging on to all the true stuff and letting go of the lies.

It means getting the spirit of God to rule over your life whilst diminishing the spirit of man in you that is yet governed or motivated by the lower self.

Straight words I know, but I think they frame your preposition in the light of the Gospel of repentance and redemption.

Rebeckah said...

I agree with you uncaduff. The Bible tells us to be in the world and not of it. I am confident that means that you don't isolate yourself, but you actually live amongst your fellow humans and show them God's love through your actions. I also believe that we were created in God's image spiritually. So, if your spirit, and the spirit of your faith is Godly, showing love, creativity, compassion and other Godly attributes, then you can be reassured that you're on the right track. Jesus told us to love our neighbor as ourselves, and that the world would know us by our love. I ask you, how can the world know anything about the love the FLDS may have? They won't speak to the rest of us, much less show love or compassion. So, are they truly serving God? Can they truly claim to love Jesus? It's a very, very good question you've presented, uncaduff.

Anonymous said...

Great thoughts uncaduff!
I have often wondered if the very reason we have diversity is for experience. I have never seen in history were a group of people trying to obtain perfection ever succeeded. Is perfection the real goal?

Uncle Roys Boy

uncaduff said...

Well you see Uncaduff, it wasn't lost on me you were making a reference towards the folks at the crick and how with perhaps with a little reasoning or better judgment it would be best to have more interaction with the outside world and there by making them more intelligent. I got that much from your post .
****************
ah.... I think you have it bassacwards,, what I meant was, isolation, or non interaction with humanity in general,impairs a peoples ability to reason and make judgments about life's issues, thereby lowering there apparent level of intelligents.

Anonymous said...

Uncaduff,You and I know 99% of the "Revealed Religon" at the crick is a bamboozle.We both watched the Barlow Boys make it up.

Anonymous said...

I was kicked out by Warren because I continued to have contact with the so called "apostates", I don't like that word myself. My belief has always been that if apostates or anyone for that matter could change my religous beliefs, how strong are my beliefs. When you think about it, the claims of the FLDS are really quite shallow in the need to not have any contact with the non-believers. If the FLDS religion had any depth to it, I would think that it would be able to withstand any conversation with anyone. Joseph Smith in the early days was not afraid of any relgion. He gathered many from many different relgions. There was some depth to the belief of those in the early Mormon days as not much could alter their beliefs. Most FLDS can't make logical conversation with the outsiders because their beliefs are so shallow and centered around the "holey profit". Maybe Fttc and others can comment on this some.

uncaduff said...

Uncle Roys Boy

8/10/2008 8:29 AM

absolute perfection is a concept in the same category as infinity and eternity. wouldn't progress be a more logical goal? now, two questions arise ; just what are we trying to perfect and what are we progressing toward? I think if we were able to look into those different groups in history, who have strived for perfection and failed, you would find one thing in common with them all; I think you would find that , when reduced to its simplest form, there definition of perfection, would consist of, OBDIENCE TO THE TEACHINGS OF A MAN, or WOMAN.
it’s a common desire among responsible people to IMPROVE on what ever they do, but “perfection” would infer that no more progress was possible. that’s what I was taught was the meaning of damnation! Now let’s talk about “progress toward what”, the second question. I want progress in improving my thinking ability, in improving my ability to produce something useful, in improving the ability to solve life’s obstacles , in improving my ability to resist coerced servitude and improving my ability to take ownership of my own person. These might seem like simple concepts, but if we attain sufficient progress in them, we will, in a practical sense, attain freedom, or salvation if you will.

uncaduff said...

Anonymous Anonymous said...

Uncaduff,You and I know 99% of the "Revealed Religon" at the crick is a bamboozle.We both watched the Barlow Boys make it up.

8/10/2008 10:39 AM
**********
they didn't make it up, they just resurected it, and when they had removed the last strip of rotting linen,the mummy's curse was bestowed upon them.

--MC-- said...

Anon 11:44 said:I was kicked out by Warren because I continued to have contact with the so called "apostates", I don't like that word myself. My belief has always been that if apostates or anyone for that matter could change my religous beliefs, how strong are my beliefs. When you think about it, the claims of the FLDS are really quite shallow in the need to not have any contact with the non-believers. -----------------
I am glad you mentioned this..the speaking to "non-believers" part. I had mentioned something along this line on a previous blog and got some nasty replies. IF non-believers are so evil...why does the FLDS do business with them. They are good enough to take money from in business,or be of service [in someway] to FLSD, but are otherwise EVIL! I just didn't get it...maybe I still don't!?

uncaduff said...

IF non-believers are so evil...why does the FLDS do business with them. They are good enough to take money from in business,or be of service [in someway] to FLSD, but are otherwise EVIL! I just didn't get it...maybe I still don't!?

8/10/2008 4:44 PM
**********

hypocrisy is the defining symptom of terminal dishonesty.

ogre said...

"apostate" issuch a relative term. I don't feel apostate from Warren, since I never chose to follow him, but apostate from Rulon Jeffs and the Barlow boys? yeah, I guess so. I just got tired of the elitism and cloak and dagger feel of the group when I left. Of course when people from the Centennial Park group and others befriended me and didn't judge me, it felt more comfortable being around them

Anonymous said...

one groups apostate is another groups potental convert, so it is conceveble that you can be both an "apostate" and a "convert" at the same time. What's in a label anyway?

Uncle Roys Boy

ztgstmv said...

The Bible says: "Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you." - 2 Cor. 6: 17

I take that to mean to get out, and live apart.

Nuff said.

rericson said...

Forgive me for "interrupting" your discussion.
I used to follow this blog "religiously", long before this latest debacle. Then I found Brooke's blog and it was more suited to my interests. (no offense meant)Anyway, a regular here posted a link last night and I found myself reading the 'local posts', again.
On this particular point, my recent personal experience doesn't jive with what is being said, here.
As a result of my posts on Brooke's blog and on the 'Grits' blog, several of the women from the FLDS have written to me. From both Texas and Short Creek. We have struck up cyber-friendships.
And I am most certainly and outsider. A gentile. A non-believer. Yet that didn't stop them from writing to me. And it hasn't stopped them from continuing to write.
One woman seems to be particularly "tuned in" to me. She'll just out of the blue send me a quick little "hello" and a 'smiley face'...and just say 'I am thinking about you.' And, thing is,it comes at a time when I'm really feeling crappy....and it is so, so nice.
We don't have conversations about anything deep...or political...just simple stuff...gardening and children....and cooking and recreational stuff....
But again, if the general practice is to not have anything to do with outsiders, then why/how are they justifying starting friendships with me????

ztgstmv said...

rericson, that's the true Christian way of making converts: through example, and through patient reeling in action. Jesus said, "Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men." The FLDS way of preaching the Gospel is much more Biblical than the LDS way, in that their whole life is a witness and raising children and reeling in new converts into the kingdom of God is a slow and loving process; it's not something you do for a couple years, and it's over, then you get back to sports, TV, and making money, like the mainstream mormons do.

uncaduff said...

Ztgstmv, thank you for your timely interjection, maybe I can use it as a fulcrum to pry this thread back on track with my starter question.
It was never my intension to infer that we should take part in the; metaphorically speaking, “worship of idols or eating of unclean sacrifices”. My point was; is isolation conducive to mental growth? And I’ll add further, mental health?
I have witnessed over the nearly three quarters of a centaury that I have lived, a people with a very strong faith in God, take themselves into isolation; and gradually turn there faith toward a man, and putting God in second place.
Now, leaving judgment or condemnation, to God in whom this power lies, while reserving the right to express my own opinion, I’m going to get a little more frank than usual. Its my opinion that Warren Jeffs is a wakeup call, for a good people who have been deceived into putting a man before God in there lives. I think isolation from there friends and family members, played a crucial part in this deception. I will make a prediction, (not a prophecy) , that the first of the people who overcome this deception, will be those who first overcome this isolation.

ztgstmv said...

I think isolation is conducive to spirituality. Jesus and the prophets isolated themselves for long periods of time in the desert in order to get closer to God. Perhaps the FLDS at this stage feel they have had enough interaction with the world and with people who don't believe as they do, and the want a time out to connect with God.

As for Jeffs, whether he is a false prophet, true prophet, weak shell used by God (like King David or Moses), or some combination, is not determined, as far as I can tell. I would hate to write off anyone or make hasty conclusions about a religion, and just write them all off as brainwashed, because I can't understand them, or from my vantage point and learning, it's "unhealthy" to live as they do.
I think "unhealthy" is relative. Sure it's unhealthy, in that an FLDS person will not hit the ground running upon entering mainstream society. But the same is true in reverse. Many of us would not survive living in their society.
But it's a free country. They believe they are the modern day Levites. That's their belief, their heritage, and they have a right to their life-style as long as they are not hurting anyone.

karateka said...

"If a group of people want real truth, is it logical to isolate themselves from humanity in general?"

-----------------------

This is a very common religious practice throughout the contemporary world, and throughout history. Monastaries (Christian, Bhuddist, etc...) are certainly places where people have gone to try to find "real truth."

Perhaps a better question is whether "real truth" can be learned from sensationalized books and movies. How close can they come, and do they ever back up their claims with any real evidence?

Anonymous said...

I like your statement undacuff!
And agree with it. This is why. All the men God chose to use, didnt gather people up and keep them hidden from other. Christ is a perfect example.
Christ went amoung, and ate with Tax collectors, Theives, Lepers, The worst of the worst. He did this to show his LOVE! Did he become them? NO, he didnt, but many he dwelt with, became more like him, and Loved Him.
Hiding your light, keeps it from shining to those in a dark world. None of us can indefinitly hide from the world, but we can, go out in the world, and NOT become as the world. Thats where Our faith, Our worship, Our personal spiritual time helps us be different THAN the world.
God did make us in his image. And God is everywhere so to speak. He doesnt hide behind walls, or fences. He makes himself known. Not by controlling, or pushing, or shoving us in a mindset, but by leading us as we go through the World. Conversion of any kind is directly by God. But hearing, and seeing a person live as Christ ask the best we can, with his help and power, beams our light to those who dont know him.

Rebeckah said...

I was always under the impression that monks and nuns were seeking communion with God, rather than "real truth". (Not that God isn't the source of real truth.) However, these are generally filled with adults who have chosen to seek their enlightenment with the fullness of maturity, not children being raised in such a way as to have little or no choice. When you are afraid to stand in line next to a black person because their "sin" might rub off on you, how can you honestly decide whether you are willing to live isolated to serve God or are you living isolated out of fear of corruption? Jesus did not start a commune. He traveled his world, ministered to the lost and hurting and spread his word through his compassionate actions. To be a Christian demands no less of us today in my opinion.

cheese said...

Rebeckah said: "When you are afraid to stand in line next to a black person because their "sin" might rub off on you, how can you honestly decide whether you are willing to live isolated to serve God or are you living isolated out of fear of corruption?"

So Rebeckah, if I promise to stand in line with you at Wendy's then can I not be a racist any more?

Rebeckah said...

lol, Cheese, no that wouldn't work -- I'm whiter than Wonderbread. But it was a kind offer. I wasn't accusing anyone of being racist, although I DO feel such teachings are racist. What I was saying is that convincing someone that simply standing next to a person of color would cause their "sin" to rub off on them promotes a spirit of fear, not of love or compassion. It isn't a true decision to worship or to devote your life to a reclusive pursuit of perfection (or God) if you are simply terrified to be part of the greater world. You can't tell me God doesn't know who is in a compound, on a ranch, in a monastery or any other retreat from the world from fear of the world rather than from a desire to draw closer to Him. Those who have been given no option to know another life cannot truly be said to have "chosen" their life. Perhaps the FLDS would do well to imitate the Amish and send their children (male AND female) out in the world for a year before allowing them to make their decision to shut themselves away from the world. (Oh, wait, that wouldn't work when the girls are being married off at 12 years old. You can't turn a 12 year old loose in the world, it's child abuse.)

Angel said...

Do the FLDS accept converts? I thought I had read that they did not...

Angel

Anonymous said...

I shall answer your question, Angel; the teachings of the Prophet's have been printed, in every language around the world. A person who ACTUALLY lives this is a member of the Church of Christ. only the individual that accepts this is in this church. And who is man to dictate; except for his own choices. It is simple. open the bible. Is there a law of the Lord you do not accept, or many that you do. Each will be there own judge, by the degree of what they live.

izzy said...

So if I judge myself as living obediently with the law of the Lord, will the FLDS take me in? I think that is what angel was asking.

Anonymous said...

izzy living obediently with the law of the Lord will not get you in with the FLDS.

Their Lord is the prophet Warren Jeffs.


Anyway it is a closed society, unless you can prove your blood line back to a Steed, Jeffs or Jessop, the Holy Trinity of preferred priest craft.

PS or you have some lovely daughters.

Anonymous said...

PS or you have some lovely daughters.

8/17/2008 5:41 PM
********
PPS. Or lots of $$$$$$$$$$$$$

Anonymous said...

ppss or a nice piece of land where they can build a 'hunting lodge'

Anonymous said...

or a chicken ranch?

Anonymous said...

Hey, I can trace my bloodline back to Jessop. Does that mean they would let me in?

Anonymous said...

Sure dude, peons are always welcome.

Angel said...

interesting