FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs may be serving life in prison, but his followers continue with their work on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas where the group's white limestone Temple towers over the town they are building. Polygamy, the practice of plural marriage, appears to be alive and well in the Lone Star State, despite laws to the contrary.
Thursday, July 03, 2008
Back to Short Creek. UEP Evictions?
Brooke Adams reported on her blog that Bruce Wisan has posted notices for eviction pending payment of assessments. Can someone living in the twin cities confirm? Have any of the FLDS posting here received such notice?
Isn't that like trying to get blood from a turnip? I feel for these families, in that, they are suppose to support the prophet and his dreams [YFZ] and IF there is money left over, they get to support their families? I thought Warren [and his various minions]already bled the twin cities dry before he got convicted?
I don't think Bruce will evict anyone. These poor people left behind in Short Creek. First they gave everything to the 'church' and then the 'church' left them nothing to keep short creek going. One hundred dollars a month for rent is nothing these days, but I heard some of these places are nothing more then one bedroom trailers. What happened to the CASA dela JEFFS?
Angel this story explains a little about Bruce Wisan... http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/national-news/portfolio/2008/05/12/Profile-of-Polygamist-Sects-Lawyer
10/08 8:42 -----maybe this will help. warren jeffs, in a fit of chagrin, tried bashing his silly head in. the good doctor said, while patching his head, I cannot fix what is within.
DAN FISCHER, CAROLYN JESSOP, FLORA JESSOP, HAS ABOUT AS MUCH CREDIBILITY AS ROSITA SWINTON. WHY NOT INCLUDE HARRY REID WITH THIS BUNCH OF RASCALS. SHAME ON ALL OF THEM. WHAT ABOUT ALL THE WHORE HOUSES IN NEVADA AND ALL OF THE TOPLESS JOINTS LAS VEGAS. HARRY REID CLEAN UP YOUR OWN BACK YARD FIRST.
7/16 @ 8:53- Just because you don't like the sound of the truth doesn't mean the people telling it are to be discredited. TOPLESS BARS AND OTHER LIKE BUSINESSES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT
Although I agree with you that some of the things Flora says are very thin stretched truth occasionally she does hit the nail on the head. AS for Caroline- She is a good woman who has the right to personal freedom the same as anybody. Dan Fischer has done nothing wrong except for refuse do what he thought was not right and then try to use his money and his success to help his family members and anybody else who needed it.
I am not going to sit idly by while you vent your vehemence at these people because they do not practice FLDS religion any longer and have the strength of character to do what they think is best and voice their own opinions.
The reason why Dan Fischer was excommunicated from the FLDS Church was because he committed Adultery. You can't hold a family when you have committed that sin. Excommunication is a love ordinance,not a hate ordinance. You can never go to the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom if you committ Adultery. Read Sec 132 D&C. Their family is taken and given to another by HIM who is anointed to govern the affairs of Marriage Covenants. Gods House is a house of order not a house of confusion. Read the Section 132 it should be posted on every lawn along with the 10 commandments. Shame on President of the LDS Church and all of the Apostles and all the Seventys and all the stake Presidents and the Bishops and Elders. Stand up for the laws of Heavenly Father and quit letting your women lead you with all their q-tipped hair dues and the purple tints. Just Read the Sec 132 and note what it says. Prepare thy heart and receive the instructions which I'm about to give unto you for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my Glory. Who prepares their hearts? Not even the President of the Church can reject this Covenant not even a Prophet of God. GOD said it, I believe it, that settles it. Shame on all of us that we don't do better. This law is for the Pure in Heart. But it will sail over all opposition prophecied by all the Prophets Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball. God will not be mocked. Cursed are all those that lift up their heals against mine anointed and say they have sinned when they have not sinned, and have done meet in my eyes saith the Lord of Hosts, it would have been better for them to have a millstone hung around their necks and thrown ito the Sea, to have offened my little ones. God is watching from a distance. Their is one law more powerful that GRAFITY and that is WHAT GOES AROUND,COMES AROUND. I'm putting a sign on my lawn that will quote SEC 132. today for I love that Doctrine because God Loves it. I propose to have every Mormon Elder do like wise. God Bless.
LOL UncaDuff- I like that idea.....I will make the blueprints for the little individual suburban houses of this new ranch....
7/16 @6:35- Why thank you.
Would you mind explaining this paragraph a little more So I might better understand what you meant? Donald Richters read "Escape" and with a blind eye forgot to mention his good Bishop Merril Jessop.
6:35- Ok. Never mind. I did a search on Donald Richter and found the article he wrote which I assume you and the other Anon were referring to.
Is this a newspaper article?
Anyway, after skimming through it briefly, I decided the whole situation was laughable. Here's why:
1- IF Donald is right and apostates cannot be trusted to tell the truth- then he has undermined his own statement because as an apostate himself, his words cannot then be considered to hold any truth.
2- IF Donald is not wrong and apostates have only altered their opinion because their perspective into the situation has also changed (ie. the box looks orange but after you step closer to it you can see it is really covered in tiny yellow and red dots) then any number of altered accounts on people's perspective from the past, present or future cannot change it at all.
Or- in the event that I misunderstood the situation,(and Donald is not an apostate himself)I will continue to add to my list:
3-IF Donald is right and apostates really cannot be trusted to tell the truth through some misguided guilt and sense of self importance and pride, then by that same logic he cannot be trusted to speak the truth about them because of his biased teachings about them.
He says the box is orange and he stays where he is. He does not alter his path or change his perspective. To him the box IS orange. But Flora and Caroline, and others like them HAVE taken that step closer and can see the yellow and red dots clearly. They have altered their perspective and are able to re-ascertain the facts accordingly. They have the advantage in the situation because they can see both sides of the story. They understand the people who say the box is orange, because they themselves once stood a step back and saw that the box was orange, but they can now see the little red and yellow dots. Of course they are going to start talking about them!
BB,Carolyn and Dan Fischer know the box is coverd with red and yellow dots,Flora knows it too,but she tells nancy grace the red dots are blood stains,Flora and her ilk,are just as big of liars as Warren and his cronies.Each side is equally reprehensible,BOTH seek to control the lives of others,for finanacial gain,and their own egos.
I think your last assessment is probably more correct about Donald Richter. I don't think he is apostate from the flds because the site he is writing for is an flds run site... they usually don't include items from non members.
I think that Mr. Richter is perfect for being the main apologetic for the flds. He is educated, a good writer, knows their teachings well, and most importantly, has never been part of the inside group enough to see the hypocrisy that really exists. He put forth a lot of the teachings of the flds to debunk some of Carolyn’s accusations and that would be a great argument IF the leaders always followed their own counsel.
I still think there are two sides to every story.... and then there is the truth. I have read Escape and Donald’s review of it. Both Carolyn and Donald will put forth information to back up there point of view and skip over that which does not help. I don't think either one is totally right, and neither one is totally wrong.
There is truth in both Carolyn’s and Donald’s points of view. If you dismiss either just out of prejudice, are you doing any better than the one you are saying is wrong?
7/18/ @ 12:01- By all means, please elaborate. Give me good sound logical reasons why you think this is bull- not just prejudice and closed mindedness.
If you are right simply because you are right, than by that same measure anybody could be right just because they are right also. There has to be a solid reason why.
IITMOC- Thank you for that. There is truth in both Carolyn’s and Donald’s points of view. If you dismiss either just out of prejudice, are you doing any better than the one you are saying is wrong? That was exactly my point. The box is BOTH orange AND red and yellow dotted. It does no good to fight over it from different view points.
7/17 @1:26- How did your post just appear between mine on 7/17 and Uncaduff's on 7/17? Because the last time I read this thread it wasn't there. Was it just pending for a long time because you are an unregistered poster? Today is the first time I have seen that post.
Huh.
Anyway, I disagree with you that the 'ordinance' of excommunication is a "Love ordinance". There is no love the way the faithful FLDS do it anymore. That's just what they tell you to keep you placated and feeling like you are doing right when behind your back the people you love are walking out of your life forever and are told to never return or have any communication with you again. Oh, and the "letter of repentance" is just a farce. I know people who wrote and wrote a letter and did their darnedest to repent and were answered with silence.
They tell you excommunication is so they might have an opportunity to repent- but that is a lie. They don't WANT these people back because they dared to think or act on their own, and they forbid you to have contact with them so you won't catch the contagious disease of free- thinking because then their reign of absolute power will come crumbling down.
And you don't have to preach section 132 to me. I have heard it all my life growing up. I practically have it memorized along with all the FLDS justifications that go with it.
That's one of the reasons why I left. I am so glad I don't have to listen to that crap any more.
Since sec 121 was suggested, this came to mind: (D&C 121:41-2)
"No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by persuasion, by long suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile."
Is sending someone into exile living up to the above quote? Isn’t the time we need the gentle persuasion and love of others the most when we are struggling? Is it really love unfeigned when you tell someone “I love you IF--------“ or is that conditional (feigned) love. Is taking away a man’s family, a woman’s children or the association of a son or daughter with their family really persuasion through gentleness and meekness?
Isn’t the power that really works in changing another the power of example, or in other words moral authority? Do you even need to tout your position, power, authority, and thus the “RIGHT TO RULE” when you are leading in this way? Have the flds leaders been using the power of love through example lately to lead the people? If they have, then why the emphasis on “right to rule”, who has the “authority”, and loyalty “fine tuned trainings?”
These are questions each one of us must ask of ourselves and not be afraid and just keep them “on the shelf.”
I love your blogs, bbgae and iitmoc!! Keep it up, and I hope some more FLDS will be able to come out from under the darkness and realize our existence here is to learn and grow and the way we do that is to ask questions.
iitmoc- Is it really love unfeigned when you tell someone “I love you IF--------“ or is that conditional (feigned) love.
We both know that is conditional love, but what is even more disturbing is when they twist the truth of this by saying, "Only the Prophet can love you with the right kind of love. Anything other than that is not real love. And in order for you to prove your love for him and enjoy his blessings and the blessings of Heaven, you must be perfectly and unquestionably obedient to him."
Bbgae and iitmoc. There is a great difference between unconditional love and unconditional reward. I believe that God loves us unconditionally, in general. But rewards must come by compliance with the conditions thereof . This brief statement can no doubt be elaborated upon endlessly , but I believe it makes the general point. As pertaining to the concept of the Prophet and unconditional love &ect. As you referred to. Consider the many descriptions we use pertaining to God, such as: Almighty, omnipotent, all knowing, etc. if we accept these terms as real, what can be more ludicrous than the doctrine of a single, imperfect and fallible man, as a sole representative of one , by virtue of his inherent attributes needs no representation.
33 comments:
Isn't that like trying to get blood from a turnip? I feel for these families, in that, they are suppose to support the prophet and his dreams [YFZ] and IF there is money left over, they get to support their families? I thought Warren [and his various minions]already bled the twin cities dry before he got convicted?
I don't think Bruce will evict anyone. These poor people left behind in Short Creek. First they gave everything to the 'church' and then the 'church' left them nothing to keep short creek going. One hundred dollars a month for rent is nothing these days, but I heard some of these places are nothing more then one bedroom trailers.
What happened to the CASA dela JEFFS?
Could someone explain the background on this... like who is Bruce and what his position or authority is?
Thanks
Angel
who has been posted? Any details?
Thanks
Angel this story explains a little about Bruce Wisan...
http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/national-news/portfolio/2008/05/12/Profile-of-Polygamist-Sects-Lawyer
I know this is not a question or statement about the evictions, but did anyone hear why Warren was taken to the hospital?
7-10 8:42-
Here is a link from another site http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/07/09/jeffs.hospitalized/index.html
10/08 8:42 -----maybe this will help. warren jeffs, in a fit of chagrin, tried bashing his silly head in. the good doctor said, while patching his head, I cannot fix what is within.
I don't think so either, but what is happening @ Zion?
zion stagnates, all withers on the vine. :(
Did anyone know that Aunt Mildred Johnson passed away? Does anyone have any info?
yea, uncle leroy sent fer her ta come an bear witness agin warren jeffs, infronta God n everbody.
DAN FISCHER, CAROLYN JESSOP, FLORA JESSOP, HAS ABOUT AS MUCH CREDIBILITY AS ROSITA SWINTON. WHY NOT INCLUDE HARRY REID WITH THIS BUNCH OF RASCALS. SHAME ON ALL OF THEM. WHAT ABOUT ALL THE WHORE HOUSES IN NEVADA AND ALL OF THE TOPLESS JOINTS LAS VEGAS. HARRY REID CLEAN UP YOUR OWN BACK YARD FIRST.
I agree, Harry ried, Laurie Allen; clean up your own filth!
7/16 @ 8:53-
Just because you don't like the sound of the truth doesn't mean the people telling it are to be discredited. TOPLESS BARS AND OTHER LIKE BUSINESSES HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH IT
Although I agree with you that some of the things Flora says are very thin stretched truth occasionally she does hit the nail on the head. AS for Caroline- She is a good woman who has the right to personal freedom the same as anybody. Dan Fischer has done nothing wrong except for refuse do what he thought was not right and then try to use his money and his success to help his family members and anybody else who needed it.
I am not going to sit idly by while you vent your vehemence at these people because they do not practice FLDS religion any longer and have the strength of character to do what they think is best and voice their own opinions.
Welcome back bbgae!
Thank your for your defense of good people.
The FLDS talk about forgiveness, they talk how honorable they are, and they talk, talk, and talk.
Donald Richters read "Escape" and with a blind eye forgot to mention his good Bishop Merril Jessop.
I found it interesting he tore down Carolyn VIEW OF THE FLDS WORLD, but did not defend Merril's WORLD.
Carolyn, Flora, Laurie and Dan have figured out they can think for themselves.
They love their fellow FLDS brothers and sisters. They don't like the darkside Warren has brought into being.
Flora embelishes, but I think she is really concerned about her people and she has been a truly a victim of blog hate.
I think she should sue, starting with one Gary Nayler, who is a nut in his own right.
Is there a move by some residents of Apple Valley and Canebeds to form there own community? it would be called the RFZ, (running from Zion) ranch.
The reason why Dan Fischer was excommunicated from the FLDS Church was because he committed Adultery. You can't hold a family when you have committed that sin. Excommunication is a love ordinance,not a hate ordinance. You can never go to the highest degree in the Celestial Kingdom if you committ Adultery. Read Sec 132 D&C. Their family is taken and given to another by HIM who is anointed to govern the affairs of Marriage Covenants. Gods House is a house of order not a house of confusion. Read the Section 132 it should be posted on every lawn along with the 10 commandments. Shame on President of the LDS Church and all of the Apostles and all the Seventys and all the stake Presidents and the Bishops and Elders. Stand up for the laws of Heavenly Father and quit letting your women lead you with all their q-tipped hair dues and the purple tints. Just Read the Sec 132 and note what it says. Prepare thy heart and receive the instructions which I'm about to give unto you for no one can reject this covenant and be permitted to enter into my Glory. Who prepares their hearts? Not even the President of the Church can reject this Covenant not even a Prophet of God. GOD said it, I believe it, that settles it. Shame on all of us that we don't do better. This law is for the Pure in Heart. But it will sail over all opposition prophecied by all the Prophets Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball. God will not be mocked. Cursed are all those that lift up their heals against mine anointed and say they have sinned when they have not sinned, and have done meet in my eyes saith the Lord of Hosts, it would have been better for them to have a millstone hung around their necks and thrown ito the Sea, to have offened my little ones. God is watching from a distance. Their is one law more powerful that GRAFITY and that is WHAT GOES AROUND,COMES AROUND. I'm putting a sign on my lawn that will quote SEC 132. today for I love that Doctrine because God Loves it. I propose to have every Mormon Elder do like wise. God Bless.
LOL UncaDuff-
I like that idea.....I will make the blueprints for the little individual suburban houses of this new ranch....
7/16 @6:35-
Why thank you.
Would you mind explaining this paragraph a little more So I might better understand what you meant?
Donald Richters read "Escape" and with a blind eye forgot to mention his good Bishop Merril Jessop.
6:35-
Ok. Never mind. I did a search on Donald Richter and found the article he wrote which I assume you and the other Anon were referring to.
Is this a newspaper article?
Anyway, after skimming through it briefly, I decided the whole situation was laughable. Here's why:
1- IF Donald is right and apostates cannot be trusted to tell the truth- then he has undermined his own statement because as an apostate himself, his words cannot then be considered to hold any truth.
2- IF Donald is not wrong and apostates have only altered their opinion because their perspective into the situation has also changed (ie. the box looks orange but after you step closer to it you can see it is really covered in tiny yellow and red dots) then any number of altered accounts on people's perspective from the past, present or future cannot change it at all.
Or- in the event that I misunderstood the situation,(and Donald is not an apostate himself)I will continue to add to my list:
3-IF Donald is right and apostates really cannot be trusted to tell the truth through some misguided guilt and sense of self importance and pride, then by that same logic he cannot be trusted to speak the truth about them because of his biased teachings about them.
He says the box is orange and he stays where he is. He does not alter his path or change his perspective. To him the box IS orange. But Flora and Caroline, and others like them HAVE taken that step closer and can see the yellow and red dots clearly. They have altered their perspective and are able to re-ascertain the facts accordingly. They have the advantage in the situation because they can see both sides of the story. They understand the people who say the box is orange, because they themselves once stood a step back and saw that the box was orange, but they can now see the little red and yellow dots. Of course they are going to start talking about them!
BB,Carolyn and Dan Fischer know the box is coverd with red and yellow dots,Flora knows it too,but she tells nancy grace the red dots are blood stains,Flora and her ilk,are just as big of liars as Warren and his cronies.Each side is equally reprehensible,BOTH seek to control the lives of others,for finanacial gain,and their own egos.
Bull
bbgae,
I think your last assessment is probably more correct about Donald Richter. I don't think he is apostate from the flds because the site he is writing for is an flds run site... they usually don't include items from non members.
I think that Mr. Richter is perfect for being the main apologetic for the flds. He is educated, a good writer, knows their teachings well, and most importantly, has never been part of the inside group enough to see the hypocrisy that really exists. He put forth a lot of the teachings of the flds to debunk some of Carolyn’s accusations and that would be a great argument IF the leaders always followed their own counsel.
I still think there are two sides to every story.... and then there is the truth. I have read Escape and Donald’s review of it. Both Carolyn and Donald will put forth information to back up there point of view and skip over that which does not help. I don't think either one is totally right, and neither one is totally wrong.
There is truth in both Carolyn’s and Donald’s points of view. If you dismiss either just out of prejudice, are you doing any better than the one you are saying is wrong?
7/18/ @ 12:01-
By all means, please elaborate. Give me good sound logical reasons why you think this is bull- not just prejudice and closed mindedness.
If you are right simply because you are right, than by that same measure anybody could be right just because they are right also. There has to be a solid reason why.
IITMOC-
Thank you for that. There is truth in both Carolyn’s and Donald’s points of view. If you dismiss either just out of prejudice, are you doing any better than the one you are saying is wrong? That was exactly my point. The box is BOTH orange AND red and yellow dotted. It does no good to fight over it from different view points.
7/17 @1:26-
How did your post just appear between mine on 7/17 and Uncaduff's on 7/17? Because the last time I read this thread it wasn't there. Was it just pending for a long time because you are an unregistered poster? Today is the first time I have seen that post.
Huh.
Anyway, I disagree with you that the 'ordinance' of excommunication is a "Love ordinance". There is no love the way the faithful FLDS do it anymore. That's just what they tell you to keep you placated and feeling like you are doing right when behind your back the people you love are walking out of your life forever and are told to never return or have any communication with you again. Oh, and the "letter of repentance" is just a farce. I know people who wrote and wrote a letter and did their darnedest to repent and were answered with silence.
They tell you excommunication is so they might have an opportunity to repent- but that is a lie. They don't WANT these people back because they dared to think or act on their own, and they forbid you to have contact with them so you won't catch the contagious disease of free- thinking because then their reign of absolute power will come crumbling down.
And you don't have to preach section 132 to me. I have heard it all my life growing up. I practically have it memorized along with all the FLDS justifications that go with it.
That's one of the reasons why I left. I am so glad I don't have to listen to that crap any more.
Right on, bbgae!
Since sec 121 was suggested, this came to mind: (D&C 121:41-2)
"No power or influence can or ought to be maintained by virtue of the priesthood, only by
persuasion, by long suffering, by gentleness and meekness, and by love unfeigned; By kindness, and pure knowledge, which shall greatly enlarge the soul without hypocrisy, and without guile."
Is sending someone into exile living up to the above quote? Isn’t the time we need the gentle persuasion and love of others the most when we are struggling? Is it really love unfeigned when you tell someone “I love you IF--------“ or is that conditional (feigned) love. Is taking away a man’s family, a woman’s children or the association of a son or daughter with their family really persuasion through gentleness and meekness?
Isn’t the power that really works in changing another the power of example, or in other words moral authority? Do you even need to tout your position, power, authority, and thus the “RIGHT TO RULE” when you are leading in this way? Have the flds leaders been using the power of love through example lately to lead the people? If they have, then why the emphasis on “right to rule”, who has the “authority”, and loyalty “fine tuned trainings?”
These are questions each one of us must ask of ourselves and not be afraid and just keep them “on the shelf.”
I love your blogs, bbgae and iitmoc!! Keep it up, and I hope some more FLDS will be able to come out from under the darkness and realize our existence here is to learn and grow and the way we do that is to ask questions.
iitmoc-
Is it really love unfeigned when you tell someone “I love you IF--------“ or is that conditional (feigned) love.
We both know that is conditional love, but what is even more disturbing is when they twist the truth of this by saying, "Only the Prophet can love you with the right kind of love. Anything other than that is not real love. And in order for you to prove your love for him and enjoy his blessings and the blessings of Heaven, you must be perfectly and unquestionably obedient to him."
That was what they told me.
Bbgae and iitmoc.
There is a great difference between unconditional love and unconditional reward. I believe that God loves us unconditionally, in general. But rewards must come by compliance with the conditions thereof . This brief statement can no doubt be elaborated upon endlessly , but I believe it makes the general point.
As pertaining to the concept of the Prophet and unconditional love &ect. As you referred to. Consider the many descriptions we use pertaining to God, such as: Almighty, omnipotent, all knowing, etc. if we accept these terms as real, what can be more ludicrous than the doctrine of a single, imperfect and fallible man, as a sole representative of one , by virtue of his inherent attributes needs no representation.
Thank you, Uncaduff.
You have a point.
Would someone please start a new thread regarding the new indictments charging Warren and 5 of his cronies?
I haven't heard of new indictments ... anyone have information on this??
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