Thursday, June 05, 2008

Governor Perry Steps Up To The Plate

Texas Governor Rick Perry said -- he hopes state law enforcement officials and prosecutors “continue to send the message" to the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints that child sexual abuse won't be tolerated.

Mr. Perry warned sect members that “if you are going to conduct yourself that way, we are going to prosecute you. If you don't want to be prosecuted for those activities, then maybe Texas is not the place you need to consider calling home."

Thank You, Guv! I couldn't have said it better myself.


IITMOC said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
IITMOC said...

And what does the governor say when it is shown there is less child abuse (incidents of sexual abuse with minors) at the ranch than the average of his great state of Texas? Is he really trying to protect the children, or are there other motives?

A word of advice for the governor; Don’t continue to hit the tar baby out of pride just because it didn’t respond the way you thought it would or should the first time you hit it.

For the record, I don't agree with child or underage marriages and think that those who participate in them should be prosecuted. However, don't persecute an entire people for the actions of a few. And especially, don't persecute a people and go on another witch hunt to try to save face after the last blunder.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again; underage marriage is a symptom of the problem in the flds, not the problem itself. The real problem is putting loyalty in front of integrity. It is the flds members allowing themselves to be ruled over instead of lead. It is looking to positional authority instead of moral authority, and justifying actions because those “whose right it is to rule” commanded an action, even though their conscience told them it was wrong.


There is a dividing line between prosecuting those who really committed crimes and persecuting a people because their way of life is different. I hope the governor is smart enough to see the difference.

Anonymous said...

bye bye governor.

bye bye budget,

hello law suits

furnace said...

iitmoc--remember when in Priesthood meeting, we talked about Orson Pratt vs Brigham Young. It sounds like Orson was right after all when he wanted to "worship the attributes, not the person"

Anonymous said...

IITMOC, I agree 100%. You've said it perfectly.

Anonymous said...

tar baby?

blogogre said...

Well furnace, that is a slippery slope, when you can so clearly distinguish the attributes of God from the person who professes to be "God with us". There is your first clue that the Jeffs had a huge problem. Refresh yourself with the Lectures on Faith about what those attributes are. Warren never had any of them. Nobody else has ever made that claim, and BY did not have that problem at the time OP was contradicting him on who God is, and how to become like him.

IITMOC said...

Furnace, you and I seem to be on the same page.

What we are seeing are the unintended consequences that happen when a people worship a person more than what he stands for and represents. What happens when a people seek to be like a person instead of seeking for what that man seeks for. What happens when we fear the loss of our salvation and desire a person to follow instead of principles.

The way I see it (and this can easily be taken wrong by some) is that we should not seek to be like anyone by imitating and worshiping them, including God. If God was once as we are now, I don’t think He got where He is now by imitating someone else. Rather, He got there by focusing on what those who had already achieved Godhood strove for. Therefore, I seek after that which He has sought for.

Stephen Covey said it well “We seek not to imitate the masters, rather we seek what they sought.” That does, however, limit the power of the master to control those under him (but gives unlimited ability to lead), and is probably the reason we have not been taught it much recently.

To be human is to be imperfect, and even those who are in positions of leadership can and do make mistakes. We should honor their position, but look past them and their faults by focusing on the ideals that they are striving for, the principles they are trying to live. If we ever focus only on them, and view them and their every action and word as perfect, there will very soon become many contradictions. When one continues to justify any and all actions of that person as perfect, they must "bury" those contradictions (take a look at many of the "fine-tuned trainings"). This is quite simply mind control, not faith, and is most certainly not using our agency for what it was meant for.

Elders, fathers, apostles, prophets etc. have a position and it should be respected if they themselves are honoring that position (the man makes the calling, not the calling the man). In my mind, those positions should simply show they are putting forth the efforts to become like God, not that they have become a God. They have reached a point on their journey to becoming like God by applying and living true to principles, but why are we worshiping a point on the journey?

It is the destination of that journey that we all should be looking for. Those in front of us should be there to lead and give encouragement (through moral authority), not as an object of our focus and total obedience because of "positional" authority and "right to rule." To focus on them would be to take our focus off the whole reason we have been sent to Earth.

The "focus on father" and "focus on the prophet" seem great on the surface, but as we can see, take the focus of off the real purpose we are here. This is not to say we don't respect them and their position. You can respect a person and his position without worshiping them.

We have, as a people in general, allowed loyalty to become stronger than integrity (and the result of that is that we end up with neither. It is now acceptable to do anything if it is 'for the prophet.') To do so, we have given up our free agency or "sacrificed" our "own selfish wills" that are not in harmony to those over us. THAT IS THE ROOT OF THE PROBLEM. TOO MANY FEAR that if they use their own agency, they may make a mistake (sounds a lot like the story of the talents). Too many in the flds believe that if they are loyal and obedient, salvation is guaranteed because you don't have to worry about what is right and wrong, just doing as you are told.

My question is how can salvation be guaranteed if we didn't use the very gift that Adam obtained by partaking of the forbidden fruit? That gift is free agency and the ability to know good from evil. If we don't use a gift, have we not been told that it will be lost or taken away?

We need to overcome our fears of making a mistake in seeking out God's character and attributes and putting them in our lives. That is why we have forgiveness and repentance.


I’m not sure if I should say amen now or not. I wasn’t trying to preach a sermon, only get my thoughts out on this subject.

Anonymous said...

One would hope that there isn't a state that wouldn't prosecute underage sex.
I think Texas was waiting for the right oppertunity to step in. A different Judge wouldn't have let them take all the kids, just the suspected underage girls, and then in the first few days the court would have allowed them to slowly go home until they got to the point of the one underage mother that they still have. When the DNA finally arrives on who the Sire of her child is, he will get his day in court.
It is time for this group to get together and start culling managment instead of good followers who question the way management works.

Anonymous said...

amen iitmoc:

Anonymous said...

So far, it appears that Texas is as accurate in dealing with the problem of polygamist underage marriage as Dick Cheney is at hunting ducks.

Angel said...

It is hard to understand letting one person have that kind of authority over so many people...

Much of the religious dogma seems strange to me... but then it is not like anything I have previously encountered... and I don't have a problem with people believing what they want. However, the giving of so much authority to one person in the church is very scary to me... somehow it just seems wrong.


Anonymous said...


I agree with what you say. If any state suspects wrong-doing when it comes to children, you would hope they would try to protect and defend the chidlren.

The problem Texas has is that the FLDS community is very the point of not issuing legal documents concerning birth, social security, marriage, etc. This makes it difficult to track things like age and who belongs to who. It also makes it easy to hide wrongdoing. When there isn't documentation, rights are lost and the prophet gets more power.

These folks trust Warren Jeffs with the most sacred thing they'll ever be given on this earth - their families. I'm not sure he deserves that trust.


Anonymous said...


where do you get your info from?

I'm flds and every other flds that I know has gotten their birth certificates, social security cards, and many have a marriage license (although for the first marriage only).

I do agree in part with your last statement though.

Anonymous said...


The problem Texas has is that they pre-judged an entire people based on faulty information. With treatment like that, can you blame them for wanting to be very private?

blogogre said...

@ 9:16

We have a saying, "other men's failings will never save you" that makes what you said relevant, maybe even astute, but wow! ... the way this amoral society has locked on to this "save the children" mantra is nothing short of amazing hypocrisy.

What is astounding is how the faults, however acknowledged, of the FLDS seem to make them the target of the moral outrage when the truth is that except for a few "underage" marriages (in quotes because the allegations have obviously proven to be more than the facts in evidence will validate) everything else about them is exceptional by most peoples standards.

Aside from all the false allegations, their major faults, from what I can see, are inbreeding, childbrides, (into plural arrangements) and coercion, (which would be a serious problem at any age) and these are are all serious ethical violations of their own principles, not actually part of any religious doctrine.

There is no question in anyone's mind, including theirs, that these practices should not and cannot be continued, guilty or not.

What should be obvious by now, with a few exceptions although painfully at the higher echelons, is that these Fundamentalists are the hallmark of taking responsibility for the things that most people consider to be the most important, in contrast to the "mainstream" that seems so hell-bent on making them assimilate.

Anonymous said...

Why were they having such a hard time determining the ages?

Anonymous said...

7:42 anon,

If being "hell-bent" on making the FLDS assimilate means requiring that they obey the same laws as the rest of the country, then color me "mainstream".

With proper documentation as to age and parenthood (as indicated on a birth certificate), why was DNA testing required? Please. Don't try to tell me they all had birth certificates and social security cards.

Anonymous said...

The FLDS should sue Texas then we can see how many laws have been broken by the FLDS.

Anonymous said...

Willie Jessop, you haven't been playing with matches have you?
News media reports it was arson that burned down Texas governors mansion:

Cut and paste above.

blogogre said...

@ 1:05

This breaking of the laws is mostly proving to be false allegations. Your mainstream is far more guilty.

One of the issues at the heart of this whole controversy is equal protection under the law. In other words, go ahead and apply the law with as much energy and precision as you like, just do it universally throughout your mainstream and you'll begin to see what your real problems are.

The FLDS would be the least of your worries.

blogogre said...

@ 2:32

Apparently Texas has money to burn.

Anonymous said...

You can forget about the law suits. Texas is set up so a person cannot sue the government if it was trying to act in the best interest of the people. Same as the judge. If every time a judge was sued an appellate court overturned them, there would not be any judges left. Texas is VERY wealthy and can handle anything this little cult throws at it. But they could sue the baptist church and possibly the school and maybe the oil dude that helped sheriff.

Anonymous said...

the situation is very interesting. I think dorothy allred solomon has some interesting things to say about it as well. I've been reading her blog at

she's quite torn on the issue as well.

Anonymous said...

i was wondering the same thing about ole willie

pat leftwich said...

Gov. Perry is correct.
You can not marry 12 year olds in Texas LEAVE go back to UTAH with your sick religion.

Anonymous said...

I followed your link, I wonder how many of the FLDS girls became woman through this ordeal.
I think Warren and Annettes 16 year old daughter may have. Maybe even Annette.
"Why were they having such a hard time determining the ages?"
One of the reasons is the woman needed their husbands premission to speak. In one instance a woman was asked her age, she turned to her husband, he told her 'your 18'. Cps thought she didn't know how old she was or that she was told to lie.

Anonymous said...

Pat I don't Texas will ever let Warren back in.

Anonymous said...

FLDS Women -
The problem, as I see it, is that you look at mainstream as being what is in the news/paper. The reality is that most of us just lead normal boring lives. We work, we eat, we pray, we sleep.

Only the sensational stuff makes the news. I have only been in the paper twice in my adult life - for my art - and I am almost 40.

Just understand that both sides are different than what is being presented. I think that is where the arguement stems. Realize most of us are just normal folks. I think the injustice is that ya'll are just normal too - in your own community. And like us, there are a lot of individual opinions within your society as well.
I hope, if nothing else, that a few women will look around and realize that the world outside of FLDS is not all bad. Not all of us have guns, sell drugs, or hurt people. Most of us are almost boring and just trying to take care of our own.

playwrighter said...

Hose A. Kwervo said...

Hey Admin. You should put a link to Texas Blues Man. He has a great blog. I asked him to link to you. I hope he will.

IITMOC said...

hose a. kwervo

Texas Blues is interesting alright, but so far his predictions have not panned out.

I think what he and so many others are missing is that you can't punish for a crime that has not been committed.

Anonymous said...

"Gov. Rick Perry, accepting personal blame if Texas “stepped across some legal line," strongly defended today its sweep of all youngsters from a polygamist sect's ranch."

Is he going to open his peronal wallet when the lawsuits start rolling in? I know I don't want it to come from my tax dollars.

Anonymous said...


you said "There is a dividing line between prosecuting those who really committed crimes and persecuting a people because their way of life is different."

No one in Texas is persecuting the FLDS for their religion unless they are breaking the law.

No one cares about their dress, no one cares about their hairdo, no one cares about their communal way of life.

But they come to Texas expecting our legal system to rollover for them because they are different. Ain't Gonna Happen!

Anonymous said...

Random re FLDS:

They seem to insist on marrying girls young, as young as they can possibly get away with, or younger, and then tying them down with as many children as possible as soon as possible. According to people who have left this society, marriage age has trended down over the years. Why is that? Where's the fire? Why not let women wait until their 20's when they are mature emotionally and intellectually? Some people have postulated that the group is trying to trap women into staying. What's the rush to marriage?

Hopefully, somehow FLDS women can be exposed to other cultures where women's path to God and heaven is achieved through their own faith and their own journey and not dependent on the whims of mortal men, their husbands, their profits, flawed human men. A belief that men determine women's celestial outcome, in my opinion, is the devil's workshops for mistreatment and abuse of women.

Participating in sex only for procreation seems to waste a precious gift from God to be shared between man and wife. In FLDS society it seems to bestow more sex on men than women. How is that fair or just? It seems sad that women past child-bearing age can no longer have the sustenance or joy of this gift from God, while their 'husbands’ get to keep right on truckin', so to speak. Again, women get the short straw.

The men and women from the FLDS who spoke out on TV or wrote on the Net or in the press always got digs in about 'mainstream life.' In fact, they appeared to ooze contempt for 'us.' Yet, they seemed upset that 'we' had issues with 'their way of life' and that 'they' were not accepted. If 'they' have contempt for 'us,' why can't 'we' have contempt for ‘them’? Warren Jeffs has numerous wives, many of whom he reassigned to himself from other men for example, yet I heard an FLDS guy talk about how there is no adultery or divorce in his society. I'd consider reassignment divorce. Three wives may be considered 'necessary' in the FLDS, but I'd consider 100 'wives' so close to adultery as to have actually arrived. I'd also call it an excuse to for a flawed, human man to have as much sex as he wanted, when and where he wanted, thinking he was going pull one over on God. "But see God, I was 'married' to all 120 of them, so I didn't commit adultery, right? Get it, I MARRIED them." Really, what kind of husband can one man be to 45 wives, let alone 100?

To me, it's like Muslim male guards in Iranian jails who performed "temporary marriages" between themselves and attractive female prisoners so they could rape the poor women without having to do eternity in hell for it. I've been married for nearly 30 years and the whole time only had sex with one person, my spouse. Warren Jeffs has bested me by 80-180+ depending on whose numbers one believes. I think he's come a heck of a lot closer to committing adultry than I have. Old men with 10, 20 or 30++ wives getting young girls as 'wives' for birthday presents will have to answer to God. In my opinion, I don't think they are going to like answering his questions any more than he's going to like hearing their answers. Well, we're all going to have to meet our maker.

Hopefully, the FLDS people find a way to be led more by their own consciences, to see themselves as human like the rest of us, aware that they are capable of error so that they doubt and question more and follow less, especially when following results in people being cast out and separated from their families and way of life and, most especially, when following results in abuse being ignored and allowed. Apparently, at one time the FLDS utilized a panel of elders to guide them rather than blindly following one man. Perhaps more voices are better than one for leadership purposes.

They seem to under educate their members. A good education is never a waste. What's wrong with sending members off to school, to learn nursing, teaching, biology, geology, medicine, the violin, comparative religion? Apparently, at one time, members did have some access to higher education. I can't see why that couldn't benefit the group. The way it is it seems like the group wants to keep its members in the dark, barefoot, pregnant and operating heaving equipment.

A system which produces as many boy babies as girl babies by nature but which can't produce wives for two thirds or more of its men seems like a society with a limited future. A society in which strong, decent women such as Carolyn Jessop can't live, which apparently provides no real relief for abused women or children is a society which is less than it could be, or should be.

sandbean said...

Anonymous841 said "But they come to Texas expecting our legal system to rollover for them because they are different."

Not true. The FLDS came to Texas and obeyed the law. A coalition of locals and established religion depised their dress, their hairdos, and their communal way of life; in short, they despised everything about the FLDS.

Nothing personal (only cause you're anonymous, otherwise you'd be a d'd l.i.a.r) but everything Voss and Perry have said and did (executive branch) , everything Bobbly Walker said and did (judiciary), and everything Harvey's said and did (legislative) show beyond a shadow of a doubt they expected the FLDS to rollover for new, unconstitutional laws.

What's not going to happen? Or are we going to secede again?

Anonymous said...

8:15 Amen!
other great woman that are too smart to remain FLDS, Dorothy Allred Soloman, Jane Blackmore, etc...
Lol "Again, women get the short straw." maybe that is what these men are compensating for.
Did you also notice that FLDS_guy seemed to disappear after the photos of the "prophet".

IITMOC said...


Do you really not see the difference between persecution and prosecution?

If there are crimes committed, those who committed them should be prosecuted. So far, not one charge against any of the flds living in Texas (although there may be some charges coming).

Persecution is rounding up an entire community of children on allegations and weak evidence at best, and removing them from their parents. Justification for this? Their "belief system."

Why is it that so many don't seem to get it... you can't prosecute someone for a belief or belief system, only for crimes committed. You can, however, persecute a person or group for their beliefs.

So far, I have witnessed no prosecution of actual crimes. I have seen an entire community persecuted for their beliefs, be those beliefs right or wrong.

As far as why the flds came to Texas, I really wish I knew.

Anonymous said...

To All LDS.
D&C 132.
PLEASE DO NOT READ THIS IF YOU DON'T HAVE ANY INTENTION OF BELIEVING THE LORD GOD ALMIGHTY. Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you my servant Joseph, that inasmuch as you have inquired of my hand to know and understand wherein I, the Lord, justified my servants Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as also Moses, David and Solomon, my servants, as touching the principle and doctrine of their having many awives and concubines—
2 Behold, and lo, I am the Lord thy God, and will answer thee as touching this matter.
3 Therefore, prepare thy heart to receive and obey the instructions which I am about to give unto you; for all those who have this law revealed unto them must obey the same.
4 For behold, I reveal unto you a new and an everlasting covenant; and if ye abide not that covenant, then are ye damned; for NO ONE CAN REJECT THIS COVENANT AND BE PERMITTED TO ENTER INTO MY GLORY.
5 For all who will have a blessing at my hands shall abide the law which was appointed for that blessing, and the conditions thereof, as were instituted from before the foundation of the world.
6 And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant, it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness thereof must and shall abide the law, OR HE SHALL BE DAMNED, saith the Lord God.


IITMOC said...


Are you applying your thoughts to all flds, or to those few who are abusive and abuse the positions of authority they may have?

As far as "contempt" from either side, I think that comes from neither being willing to understand the other out of fear that their own beliefs, opinions and views may be changed.

I do agree – why can’t the girls be allowed to grow up before marriage? However, not all girls are married underage, but I dare say most are still relatively young when married. I still do not believe that the majority of men in the flds are desiring young wives just for sex.

I am also with you on the fact that the flds people need to let their own conscience guide them. And yes, the lack of certain areas of education and higher education in general lately does make the people easier to control. Just be careful in trying to blanket all within the flds as the same. And please, don’t use the work of Carolyn or any other former member as the only lense through which you view the flds, as you are apt to miss a good deal of what is really there.

Anonymous said...

I would like to know why the girls can't have more than an 8th grade education. I'm curious as to the curriculum used in the school on the ranch. Is it such that a student could pass the GED which is the way homeschooling in Texas is supposed to be?

FLDS_Guy said...

I would like to know why the girls can't have more than an 8th grade education.
They can have as much education as they want. As with any group of people, there are those who choose to get more education than others. All my life, I've been taught that if I have an opportunity to learn something, I should take that opportunity and not waste it.

I'm curious as to the curriculum used in the school on the ranch. Is it such that a student could pass the GED which is the way homeschooling in Texas is supposed to be?
Definitely. I'm going to tell a little of my personal experience here. I went to the public school in Colorado City through 9th grade. Most of my teachers were FLDS, and I learned a lot from them. Then, I went to 2 years at a private FLDS school. The last two years of my schooling were much better than all my previous years. It felt like school didn't have to be dumbed down and we could learn as much as we were capable of. Just as an example, typing/computer skills was a MANDATORY high school class. Most of those attending school were people who wanted to be there and were willing to learn. I'll just say I had a great time there and I learned a LOT.

All that said, after 6 years of being out of school, I decided I may as well try to get my GED in case I ever needed it to apply for a new job. I went there with absolutely no studying before hand, and passed -- 98th percentile. I was amazed when the GED instructor said that 40% of our nation's high school graduates cannot pass a GED test, and most people fail the test on their first try. I personally thought the test was too easy. So, just what is being taught in our public schools these days?

Sorry to take this thread so far off course, but I just wanted to address the myth that we don't believe in education.

IITMOC said...

5:21 PM,

Who said they can't have more than an 8th grade education?

I don't know for certain about the school on the ranch, but if it is anything like the Alta Academy, they teach through the 12th grade. And yes, I would think most all of the students old enough could easily pass a GED. What is taught may lack in some areas thought to be compromising of the faith, but these are very disciplined schools, teachers, and students. Some of the folks on the ranch are certified teachers and used to teach in public schools. I wouldn't be surprised if they were involved in the teaching at the ranch school.

The areas of schooling that are a little lacking are history, some science, literature, many of the arts, and critical thinking.

broB said...

I see you said 'critical thinking' was lacking in the FLDS curiculum iitmoc.

A strain of this virus is taught in todays universities. I think it has some major flaws.

We do need people to think for themselves. We do want our rising adults to ask questions about everything, including their faith and religion.

But Critical Thinking, hmmm, I would rather that the spirit we teach would be ENQUIRING THINKING.

Theres a fundamental difference.

A mind encouraged to enquire seeks after what is true, it contains greater elements of faith and humility, essential attitudes for our spiritual health and growth.

A mind encouraged to be more critical has reduced humility and faith, and so we have todays world, were science often mucks things up as often as it profers improvements.

We are allowed to ask questions, in fact we are supposed to ask all manner of the questions of our soul, Jesus counseled us so also, and the spirit bears witness to me that we ought.

Only we ought not ask questions to find fault, or for entertainment, or to escape from our natural duties and the obligations of the path of our soul.

We must ask questions to gain understanding, to learn, to enlarge our minds, to improve our ways.

Anonymous said...

Thanks for your answers about the schooling. I was told that the school on the ranch only went to 8th grade and that when the SCISD offered to let the students come to Eldorado High School, they were told that the children only needed an education through 8th grade.

Anonymous said...

What is being taught in high school these days? Unfortunately, how to use condoms, and then people wonder why the FLDS want to home school. I'm XFLDS (an no, not all of us X's want to attack the FLDS lack of schooling), but I certainly understand where they are coming from in wanting to home-school. If I had the time, I would like to myself, because public school is more a daycare and sex-ed than math, science, or history.

Anonymous said...

my father called public school the devils playground.

In looking back now having attending public school, I think he was right.

Anonymous said...

Anywhere can be the "devil's playground." It is our ability to not let him influence us that holds him at bay, not our ability to change physical locations.

Whatever you seek for, that is what you will find, regardless of the physcial location.

Anonymous said...

The reason my father said this was as follows.
In public high school, (and this was not so long ago,) the folowing was practiced. Happened in my high school.

Zero discipline and almost no order. Any physical discipline was outlawed.

Very little distinction between some teachers and pupils.

Some teachers admitted to students that they smoked dope.

Bullying was rife and unchecked.

Students were allowed every freedom other than actually smoking on campus until year 10.

Sex education was taught but not restraint or moral law. No religious or moral teachings were allowed.

Many could not read or write or do any form of advanced math.

Respect for elders was disgarded and replaced with a sickness we now call personal freedom.

The radio was allowed to be played in class as 'background' noise. No kidding, this was actually allowed if we were 'good.'

Some of my teachers were wonderful people, but the degredation of the rock and roll sixties and seventies had crept in through the universities and I bet you the reader can see it all in your own neighborhood.

Its worse now.
Now our youthy are not even taught to honor our parents and natural obligations.

Now our children are taught rights, rather than duty and moral law.

What exactly do you think is going to turn our demise around??? eh?

One day soon, you are going to get on an train or aeroplane, that is being maintained by one of our undicsiplined youth, and when it crashes, then you might start to worry about bringing back respect and moral law to our schools, were minds are formed and set for life.

Until them, you FLDS keep your children out of our world. Our world has a sickness. Your may need a tune up, but ours need an engine swap.

Anonymous said...

"Respect for elders was disgarded and replaced with a sickness we now call personal freedom." -- Anom

Personal freedom (violation of) was the very reasoning for the Texas courts to give back those kids.

in fact, without it, the FLDS wouldn't even be allowed to exist.

sorry, but your father is clueless

keep sweet texas

IITMOC said...


You have just done a pretty good job of describing what happens when you have personal freedom without personal responsibility. The solution comes from within and from the family unit. The solution does not come just from controlling the environment (in this case school). If that did work, communism would have and continue to be a great success.

My definition of "critical thinking" is the ability to question what you believe in, and why you believe it. It is not to just have faith, but faith unto knowledge, and that can only come when you can and do question and seek for answers (or knowledge). From how you described it, your "enquiring thinking" is very similar to what I term "critical thinking." To be critical just to argue or tear someone down certainly has little to no value at all, but to be critical to find answers to something not understood is healthy and the way that we learn for ourselves.

To ask questions of those “in authority” in the flds or to question council, advice, or scripture is very much discouraged and seen as a lack of faith, which it is. But faith, for it to be actionable, must be faith unto knowledge. Knowledge comes only when we can ask questions.

Whether we want to face it or not, to believe that we can’t question what has come to us “through authority” is quite simply mind control and is the removal of free agency.

Anonymous said...

As a certified teacher and a Christian, I feel compelled to throw in my opinion on the topic of the evils of public schools.

First of all, it seems ignorant to make a blanket assumption about public schools based upon one person's point of view. The chances of he/she having seen many schools across the country is slim to none.

The area where I live boasts a very strong public school system. My son reads above grade level (according to national standards).
Our next door neighbors send their very bright children to a private school where both have fallen terribly behind in reading. Their private school lacks the tools to help them catch up to grade level, so the children are spending their summer in a reading program which the parents are paying for. If they don't catch up soon, their reading challenges will cause them to suffer in all subjects. Their mom will not move them because she has been made to fear public school.

As to the social evironment, outside of religious education, the two schools line up closely. Neither allow bullying, bad language, or violence. Both of our children have witnessed all of the above on their playgrounds.

Why, even though one school would seemingly be much better for a child's social and spiritual development, would you see swearing on the playground? The reason is because both the public and private schools have one thing in common: KIDS WITH SIN NATURES!

In case you're about to make the case for homeschooling, let me stop you right there. I was homeschooled for a time in elementary school. My mother was a certified teacher who had retired to stay home and raise a family. Disgruntled with the quality of teachers available, she took us out and homeschooled. She was the hardest and best teacher I ever had. Other moms I know who homeschool, however, are very sloppy with their curriculum and don't do a good job at all. They are cheating their children.

My point: quit making blanket statements about school. If your school is private, but many of the text books have pictures and chapters cut out of them, you're probably not getting a well-rounded academic education. If your children go to public school and your faith is important to you, get to church as often as possible.

Parents are responsible for this, not school.

brob said...

We are on the same page iitmoc in your clarification of the definition.

I wanted to stipulate my concern about what is presently practiced with regard to such, because very often it is encouraged in the higher education courses, but in the wrong way, towards an arrogance of spirit.

If it is encouraged along with a knowledge of our own faults, and a sincere desire to learn and improve things, then this attitutde of self-righteousness, exhibited by such as the CPS workers, by many doctors and by many scientists, would I feel be much better.

I believe that the FLDS needs some work, I just hope that they receive what they need and not what they dont need. It will be a time of trial now for them, with their Faith walked over and their Zion trashed.

brob said...

There is a significant degree of rebellion in your spirit stg, either that or you are just looking for a fight, which is anger unjustified left over from the past.

Either way, if you dont face up to it, and get it out of you, it will take you to a place in life that you will not like. Things can always get worse.

To remove such tendencies and energies from our spirit is a work, a personal work, and it takes effort. You must firts decide as does an alcoholic, to face it and to change it, then you may be able to work at it.

Depending upon the time this has been a part of you, so the time it will take to change it in yourself.

But there is greater happiness, peace, and understanding to be felt on the otherside of this work, it is well worth it, I have had to do the same myself.

Anonymous said...

I have had experience with a number of schools, and with numerous souls who have attened schools.

I know home schooling isnt everything, and is often insufficient according to the teacher available.

But really the attitude taught in schools today is toxic to the health of our youth.

It is so bad where I come from that I just couldnt send my children there. I would have to find another way.

But its nice to hear that you have a good school, and that you are a christian, (though that is a rather loose term) and that your mother really and truly loved you.

I should hope that with your heritage and intelligence you would be able to better than the average American, and that you can keep your children from the attitudes that are not the best, however, most schools, yes even yours, is toxic to spiritual health and 5 days of this cannot be properly counteracted by 3 hours at church on Sunday or by an hour an evening with your children.

Just watch what they pick up. Watch their disinterest, and disatisfaction grow, then watch their ingratitude grow. Then see how in their disatisfaction they being to try some of the rubbish of the world, until as teenagers you cant stop them going to a rock concert and they begin to take drugs, experiment with sex and get a car.
Its only a few of the strongest spirits that coem come through the school attitudes as they are.

Good luck, your going to need it.

Anonymous said...


You're right. In this day and age the term "Christian" can be a loose term. Allow me to clarify.

I am non-LDS. I believe that Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of God who came to this earth to live as a man and die for my sins. I believe that had He not made this sacrifice, my sins would have kept me from having a relationship with God here on earth. I believe that after He died on the cross for my sins He rose from the dead 3 days later.
Because of His sacrifice and my belief in Jesus' lordship, I will spend eternity with Him in Heaven. Hope that helps.

I do appreciate you wishing me luck with my kids in the public school, but I happen to have spent the better part of my academic life in public schools. I know that not everyone around them believes the same thing they believe. I think it's good preparation for the world they'll live in since we aren't in a compound. Besides, did Jesus and the disciples spend all their time around each other? No! If they had you and I wouldn't even be having a spiritual conversation right now.

Anyway, somehow I survived the evils of public school and came out without having even tried drugs or alcohol, going to a rock concert or having sex. Somehow I even managed to get a college degree without stumbling on those things and marry my husband as a virgin.

It boils down to where you put your faith: in God or in man.

God just gave me a verse: "Greater is He that is in me than he that is in the world." IJohn 4:4

Anonymous said...

rebellion in your spirit?
looking for a fight?
unjustified anger?

erra Brob?
do you really think I'm so naive as to fall for the old
"attack the messenger" routine?
besides, not only is your advice un-welcome
but empty and arrogant as well

If you'd like to respond to my comment
feel free,
don't waste my time as well as other's

keep sweet texas

oh by the way, you are right about the angry part
but has nothing to do with my schooling or disposition
It's 'cause I'm a Laker's Fan

brob said...

4.06, I think you under estimate how low the influences have sunk in schools since you attended.

In considering what I would do, I just could not bring myself to subject my children to what the school system now does. That is my honest conclusion. The teachers where I am just do not care and are way too humanistic for me.

I think you had an exceptional mother.

I read your notions on Christianity. your words below:

"I am non-LDS. I believe that Jesus Christ is the one and only Son of God who came to this earth to live as a man and die for my sins. I believe that had He not made this sacrifice, my sins would have kept me from having a relationship with God here on earth. I believe that after He died on the cross for my sins He rose from the dead 3 days later.
Because of His sacrifice and my belief in Jesus' lordship, I will spend eternity with Him in Heaven. Hope that helps."

In this statement your views are no different from thousands of christians and LDS for that matter.

Here is my knowledge and testimony.
Please note that these are not beliefs, they are actual knowledge, they are not copied from any religion, but are the result of a life time of study and research with an open mind as to what is actually true and as conclusive facts they were arrived at by great exertion and spiritual experience, though I offer them freely, humbly yet boldly, for I know them and that eternal laws rule us, not beliefs.

I am a spirit being in a body. My spirit has a past, in which I had choices and made decisions, and my character and attitude, indeed the overall degree of my sin and righteousness, is a product of my past choices and actions.
I shall be at the close of this life the sum total of all my actions, attitudes and motives, and when I leave this realm I shall congregate with other spirits who are just like me.

If my spirit is cleansed from all darkness and iniquity, from all addictions and false motives, if my spirit is become only of intelligence, love and righteousness, then I shall be able to assist in building the higher realms of Heaven.

If I do not live as Jesus taught, and as Jesus lived, I will not be going where Jesus went, regardless of what I believe.

Anonymous said...


More sister attended a private school which taught the Bible but also slipped in one caviat: to be saved you had to receive the Holy Spirit through the gift of tongues. This was presented during an out of town retreat for which parents were not present. There was spirit- slaying, forehead-slapping and lots of people faking tongues. My terrified sister was chastised for not joining in and catagorized as a non-believer, though nothing could've been further from the truth. Our parents removed my sister from private school and put her in public school the next week.

I think spiritual manipulation can be much more obscure and destructive to a young child than the obvious pitfalls in public school. Spiritual manipulation usually involves taking a little bit of truth and twisting it until it isn't true anymore.

Yes, challenges have changed and intensified since I was in school. I know because I volunteer in my son's classroom weekly. I maintain that the God I took to school with me every day is the same God my children take to school. He hasn't changed and His power hasn't lessened. In fact, my son told me that all but two of his classmates know the Lord. I love that he asked them!

Thank you for sharing your testimony. I couldn't help but notice that much of your salvation centers on your effort rather than what Christ did for you. Would you characterize yourself as a Christain?

You didn't mention HOW your spirit would be "cleansed from all darkness and iniquity"...

who or what does the cleansing?

Christ mixed with unbelievers. Do you?

-4:06 anon

brob said...

Thanks for the thoughtful words 4.06.

Actually I have never advocated private schools either, for one I couldnt afford them on an honest tradesmans income and two I dont thing they would be that good, but I think they would be better academicaly overall.
Its like I said, I just could not send my children to presen public school. I am left with finding a very good small school, run by like minded parents, or home schooling of some sort at least until about age 16.

I am sorry to hear of your daughters experience with the superstious mind of man. You must understand that we are all superstitious and that we all love comfort. Thus we have the falsehoods and nonsense woven into most of christianity.
It is simply the human spirit as always, wishing it knew what was true and so eating sand as if it was life giving water. It appears that God allows us to grow out of our ignorance by the price of our pains. Our knowledge of what is true can only increase as our experience increases, so this situation in your daughters experience may well make her very careful about what she believes, and thats a good thing.
It is for these exact reasons, and for a certain knowledge that truth can be trusted and exists in all things that I have spend my life investigating all christian and LDS doctrines, so that I would not mislead my children.

If your son asked his class mates if they loved the Lord or new the Lord, then he has guts and the strength of the convictions you have taught him, and I hope you are able to nurture these beautiful traits with ONLY TRUTH, and not just pass on to him the porriage that ever has been the bane of most so called Christian doctrine. Or else he is sweet and nieve and public school can cure that. ;-)

Do I characterize myself as a Christian?

hmmmm, the term is too broad to make its singular use worth useing without defining it.

If Christ will accept me as His, as being worthy of His eternal kingdom, then I shall be able to claim that I am truly of Him, so that is my goal. He has not done so yet that I am aware of.
Frankly the word is almost meaningless other than to indicate a sincere belief that Jesus Christ existed, and your brand of beliefs do not give you the franchise on the word or its definition. Shall a Catholic tell me I am not a true christian because I do not partake of their doctrines and sacraments. Shall a Jew tell me I am not of Israel. hmmm, I do not say you are not a true follower of Christ, but I watch and feel the spirits upon which people run, much more than that I listen to what they say they believe.

If you will recall the words and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, you will see that He said: Paraphrased it goes a bit like this: "And when the son of man comes in His glory, he shall reward every man according to his works."
Then the story of the rich and Lazarus, and the whole tenor of his teachings points to inevitable consequence for actions.

Secondly, have you not seen how an action imbues itself in your own character. Your character is the outward showing of your spirit. If you do good, if you actually do what Jesus taught, and lay it all away, the whole world, all the things you cling to, after having kept all moral law, and you grow in the spirit of God, then you can be led to acts of obedience that have the effect of cleaning up your soul.
Not only cleaning up your soul, but imbuing you with greater integrity of spirit, with strengths that you only now bear the seeds of, with better character, with more virtues.
Virtuous actions beget a virtuous spirit.
These are laws of creation, that every action and thought carries with it a spirit, and that spirit abides in us after the action, so light and love is either increased in us or decreased in us, by every action.
Please do not imediately toss this notion away because it conflicts a little in your mind with what you presently believe, but observe people and see if it is true for yourself.

So as we lie down, thus we rise, and the cleansing of our soul is no miracle, but simply as Jesus spoke to the young rich man who sought eternal life. It is a walk of faith, not of obedience to the dead letter of the laws, but obedience to what the spirit leads us to alter in our lives and to live in our lives.

This is my great love, to share these things, so thanks for the oppotunity.

I do mix with all sorts, I belong to no group or religion, for where is there a group that loves the truth more than their own brand of religion.

Gos bless you, your husband and family to continue, to see and walk the path.

brob said...

My mistake above sorry.
It was your parents daughter that happened to, not yours.

Obstructionist said...

So who is still here 3 years later?

Obstructionist said...

Polygamist Prophet Warren Jeffs Explains POLYGAMY

bbgae said...

Hello all. I know I've been gone a long time. I've got a lot of personal drama I am dealing with at the moment and my life is all upside down and backwards.

Anyway, thanks for that link, obstructionist. I haven't heard Warren's voice in a long time. What I heard of that u tube clip was interesting. To be honest though, I couldn't handle listening to all of it.

Anonymous said...

Texas gov. clears way for $180 billion NAFTA SuperHighWay which will go through FLDS ranch...

"The way was opened when Texas Gov. Rick Perry, a Republican, vetoed a series of proposals the Texas Legislature assembled to slow down the work on what is considered to be a key link in a continental NAFTA superhighway network.

Perry's latest veto was of a plan to add a number of requirements to the Texas eminent-domain procedures, under which governments can grab and use private property.

But, Corsi reported, Steven Anderson of the Institute for Justice's Castle Coalition, objected. He said Perry's action "left every home, farm, ranch and small-business owner vulnerable to the abuse of eminent domain."

all above were quoted from WorldNetDaily:

Anonymous said...

Not sure if this fits this tread...
Teressa Wall-Blackmore got full custody of her children. Roy gave up the fight for custody earlier this month, but wants visitation rights. Teressa will leave that up to the children, she wants them to spend time in Bountiful.
In the article the author speculates that the FLDS site on how children spend their time would have a huge factor in a Judges discission, and maybe not even allowed Roy visitation rights.

Obstructionist said...

6/25/2008 12:00 PM

If knowledge is power, then every post that offers accurate data is a ggod post!

Obstructionist said...

The relationship between YFZ & those in Centennial Park;

Polygamist with Relatives in the YFZ Texas Polygamy Raid