Friday, May 23, 2008
Texas Appeallate Court decision
Click on thread title to read story in Salt Lake Tribune. Looks like the FLDS have won a battle but the war is far from over. Someone suggested on another blog that CPS should bus them all back in like they took them out. Probably not gonna happen.
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117 comments:
aI don't think CPS will roll over that easily. I am sure there's still a long fight ahead. There's no way we know all of this story, yet. There very well could be new and seperate charges that have come to light because of this investigation. The "talking heads" on the news mention things like welfare fraud and tax evasion...so it's not over. [And I am SURE there is a Movie of the Week being written as we speak!!]
If CPS can't demonstrate, to the courts, that specific children aren't in danger, those children should be returned. The problem still is [in my mind], returned to whom? That fight will continue things as the DNA results start to come in.
Maybe the "good" thing is these children have now been exposed to the outside world and it may allow their minds to see that there is another world outside the Ranch. Not necessarilly a better world, but that one does exist.
In the end, you CAN"T regulate the way people think and believe. While I don't condone the way FLDS does things, you aren't going to change minds there. You might get 1 or 2 that chose to leave. But I think, overall, the thought processes of total obedience are too instilled in them to even conceive of leaving.The thought of eternal damnation in Hell is a pretty powerful deterent.
OK, now, Flora Jessop---AND I can already hear the screams from the people who despise her. BUT...she mentioned something on the Nancy Grace show [which I only watched to see what she was going say..] that I had never heard before, and wanted another opinion. I'll paraphrase since I didn't take notes: If a girl gets pregnant during "training by her father" she is given an abortion-without aneshtesia- as a form of punishment. Because if she was a "true believer" she would never have gotten pregnant. [The "in training by her father' statement had a certain sexual conotation to it.]
I find this a difficult statement to believe. I can see [if this is in fact a lie] why people dislike her so much. In all the reading I have done on cults and religious sects [and I have done my fair share over the years] I have never heard this mentioned. So, I tend to discount it as fact.
FLora also mentioned that if the children are returned they will "disappear" into "other compounds" in Mexico and Canada. I guess alluding to the Ranch being
abandoned as people flee the Texas law.
So, I guess we all wait for the next installment of the State of Texas vs. the Ranch. If nothing else, it's been very interesting!
--Curious--
Don't ya think CPS can argue that they need to see the DNA results before they can go forward and release any children? And haven't some banished father's come forward to fight for custody also? I, for ne, would sure love to see a flow chart of the DNA results. I am sure it's going to be fascinating with all the cross pollination going on over the years. [Sorry if that's insulting...it's the only term that came to mind!!]
I think what TX did is a disgrace. I'm not a polygamist nor do I ever aspire to be one - but to separate families(especially young and nursing children from their mothers) is appalling!!!!!!! From the news I have read, it's not even clear that the state is keeping good records of who is going where. I'm praying for the families that have been separated. My heart goes out to the mothers. Shame Shame on Texas!!!!!!
You are right mc about the DNA.
Isn't curious Merril Jessop or Wendell Nielsen are not defending the flock.
Instead they have a thug and a proficient liar Willie Jessop as their spokesperson.
Willie is around to keep the troops inline and on message.
The CPS where played like a drum Wednesday at the gate of the YFZ or where they?
The Court of Appeals decision will be challenged.
As for Flora's comment about mothers and children fleeing when they are united, she is right on the money.
A majority FLDS men have shown what extent they will follow their prophet Warren. They have turn tail and protected their assets, and left the poor emotion deprived wives to deal with the gentile world and the courts.
These people really believ they are are above the law of man and the land.
Their god is a father of lies, and the biggest deceiver.
As this story continues to unfold the FLDS will show the world the extent of the brainwash world of Warren, Mormonism.
Maybe that thread for venting on the part of anti-FLDS wasn't a bad idea.
The question by Curious about the abortions-- I didn't see the interview, perhaps someone who did can confirm what was said above. It would take an extremely sick person to perpetrate such upon a child. IF this happened among the FLDS it would certainly be an isolated case. I doubt very much whether there is any truth at all to it.
I have said from the beginning of the raid that many of the children would go home when this got to the courts. There are some that will probably not go home for a long time if at all. There are some parents, at least fathers, that will be prosecuted. The YFZ was doomed to failure from the start. It was founded on perverted principles of Mormonism and could not stand. But the true principles of Mormonism will endure contrary to the last posters hopes.
What bothers me is that this group has been able to abuse the welfare system and now they will probably be sueing the government for loads of money because of the recent decision. Now us taxpayers are going to have to pay them even more.
"If a girl gets pregnant during "training by her father" she is given an abortion-without aneshtesia- as a form of punishment. Because if she was a "true believer" she would never have gotten pregnant. [The "in training by her father' statement had a certain sexual conotation to it.]"
That's the grossest and most disgusting thing I've heard in all my life! I used to (unwisely) think that the lies told about us were so outrageous that people would just laugh about it. I can't believe that people actually believe these sorts of things. I can tell you, if such a thing ever happened among our people, they would be turned over to the law enforcement faster than the speed of light.
The way we are portrayed, and our actual way of life seem to be quite opposite. Our entire religion centers around love, not force. Children are loved into obedience, not forced and threatened. There's a new article on truthwillprevail.org that explains it better than I can:
http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=28
I also find it funny that people believe our children know absolutely nothing about the outside world, and have been walled up in this "compound" with great high walls(at least 10 ft. high) and no way to escape. Umm, reality check, people. It's just a barbed-wire fence. There are pictures and videos of it if you care to look. We also don't believe that everyone out in the world is out there to hate us and persecute us. But, as you can see, there are people who want only the worst for us. However, there are also many good, kindhearted, and honest people out there as well, and we're really grateful for the support and kindness of them.
So I say, get to know some of us before making any sort of judgments. We're people and have feelings, thoughts, and emotions, just like everyone else.
Thank God justice finally appears to be happening in Texas and that these children who have been traumatized by being removed from loving parents will soon be returned to them. A terrible injustice was done here. The children will bear the scars for the rest of their lives. When children are violated in this way they lose trust in adults and in the world. Just because children appear to be functioning fairly well in the care of strangers does not mean they are, they just go on auto pilot waiting for some order to be restored to their world. I know this from personal experience. The only child abuse is Texas is being done by CPS. I pray it is over soon and the children can begin to heal.
Are there counselors at the ranch? Will there be professional services available to the children and mothers after they return home to deal with the trauma?
TX should at LEAST be obligated to pay for THOSE services. Right?
Or are the FLDS confident that they can get things back to normal with the Priesthood alone?
I mean, it would defeat the purpose to bring an outsider therapist to the ranch. Are there any therapists IN the ranch?
ARE THEY KIDDING ???!!!!
I just read that on 5/21/08, CPS went BACK to the ranch to see if there were more children there?
Haven't they done enough?
There was a man waiting at the gate to inform them "Not without a search warrant", but still !!!
fttc, or anyone else,
Do you know of any books that have been written that show why all these polygamous groups that have broken away from the LDS church originally are without priesthood power, which is necessary to have eternal marriage, either using scripture or common sense logic?
I am not talking about the women who have left, for various reasons, of their own accord, and then written a book about their experiences.
P.S. when I read the title of this blog, I thought it meant that Texas CPS had made an appeal already. I guess I read it wrong.
Just because CPS messed up, does not mean that sexual and emotional abuse is absent in the FLDS community. I am sure that it is not a rampant as outsiders would think, but I really feel that it is more rampant than the FLDS or other polygamous groups wish to admit.
The CPS has 10 days to appeal the appeal!
"What bothers me is that this group has been able to abuse the welfare system and now they will probably be sueing the government for loads of money because of the recent decision. Now us taxpayers are going to have to pay them even more."
What bothers me is that people still believe this nonsense. Not one family on the ranch was on welfare. So, you're going to say that it's the folks in Colorado City/Hildale that are doing it and sending their money to them. I know there are a lot of families on foodstamps & WIC, but I don't see how foodstamps can build a temple. If you think there is welfare fraud, come and investigate. The only FLDS people who know anything about "bleeding the beast" are those who heard about it from anti-FLDS propaganda. Come and investigate if you'd like, but do it the right way and don't condemn all of us. I hope for your sake that the Texas taxpayers aren't required to pay for this mess. As far as my personal feelings go, I wouldn't sue them. I say give the children back and we'll leave you alone. I can't speak for all FLDS people, but that's what I would do.
CPS plans to appeal YFZ Ranch custody ruling to Texas Supreme Court
11:11 AM CDT on Friday, May 23, 2008
FLDS guy ....
Have you listened to Jeffs? There are recordings of his voice talking to the population out there for all to hear. I realize that not all of you are terrible, but listening to some of his monotone rambling would lead one to believe that you all are slightly off if you believe his 'stuff'. I think all from the YFZ ranch are in fact completely separate from the rest of the community so I hesitate to generalize. It looks like the folks on YFZ are living under a completely different set of 'prophet words'/rules for lack of better terminology.
Are you from the YFZ ranch?
I'd love to hear what you're doing to get your children back, or support your wives.
If you haven't lived on that compound, then how do you know what goes/has gone on inside?
Just curious.
Forget about Flora Jessup ..... she has no credibility .... she comes across as a cigarette smoking, bitter woman, who experienced the worst of the worst, and is blowing it all out of purportion.
I think the FLDS people should band together in a class action suit. Those with no desire to become millionaires off of lawsuits against Texas could donate their settlements to some group dedicated to policing and changing what is bad in the CPS system.
The very first lawsuit should be a huge civil suit against Flora Jessop for her slander and defamation. Take the proceeds from her book and give them to the people she has hurt with her slander.
the problem with the CPS
is when excessive power
is given to so few
over so many
the problem with the FLDS
is when excessive power
is given to so few
over so many
pot calling the kettle black?
keep sweet texas
stg
ANNON flds
When Winston Blackmore was on Larry King, King asked him about the abuse at the YFZ. Blackmore simply stated that abuse can happen anywhere.
If I were CPS I would keep the children in as large of groups as possible and then moniter their conversations and conduct. When my
we were kids a father was convicted of Sexual abuse because his daughter while innocently comparing her sex life to that of her friends, stated that after her mother left she took over all of her mothers responsiblies including sleeping with her Father.
FLDS guy ....
Have you listened to Jeffs?
Of course I have and still do! What specifically do you have reference to? I haven't heard any teachings saying that we should deliberately be breaking the law. I've heard quite the opposite -- that we should be the most law-abiding and peaceful people and set an example for others to follow. Have people among us broken laws? Yes, just as people in any community have, but it's not sanctioned by our religion or leaders. Even in Elissa Wall's case (and believe me, that is an exception), I am led to believe the age of consent was 14. Why they didn't bother to get a marriage license, I don't know, and I guess it's really none of my business.
As for me, I have never been to Texas, but I have family members who are there whose families are scattered across the state right now, so you can imagine my feelings right now.
I guess I shouldn't be too worried about Flora. I'm surprised that anyone at all believes her anymore.
Oh, one more thing. I've never heard of any date set for the end of the world, and it's quite humorous to me to read about it in the news. It's quite the opposite, actually. Not even the angels in Heaven know.
stg,
Exactly,
the pot is calling the kettle black!
Many of us are trying to understand polygamists. But the more I learn, the more I realize that denial and double standards seem to be the norm.
I too hope the flds mothers sue Texas for abducting their children as well as paying for trauma counselling for moms and kids.
All the authorities have done here is to encourage separate religious groups to go further underground. When the captive flds kids are restored to their families,the families wiil be more afraid and protective than ever. Who can blame them. If I thought my children were in danger of being kidnapped I would run for the hills. They will too.
CPS has now filed an appeal with the Texas Supreme Court.
The individual hearings for the children have been canceled.
I have not heard of any criminal charges being filed yet....
I did see the interview with Flora and she specified "marriage training by her father".
The impression I am getting is that the father in a FLDS family has the power of the priesthood and ministers to his his own families spiritual needs. As such he has enormous power and authority within his family. Additionally, some men within the community receive revelations from God that give them specific instructions. Sometimes those revelations deal with social minutia such as who is to marry whom and what children are to live with what family. The community honors these revelations as the Word of God and considers obeying the instructions in the revelations to be more important than obeying the law of the land. As part of this hierarchy of ethical behavior, it seems to be considered acceptable to deceive people outside the FLDS. This system of ethics seems to give certain persons within the FLDS totally unlimited power and authority over other persons, with no checks and balances over that authority.
I am not seeing a resolution that reconciles the governing structure of FLDS with the legal structure of the USA.
Hopefully someone wiser than I will be able to find a resolution.
Angel
Foodstamps and WIC are government programs.If one cant feed there children without government help,perhaps having 9+ children is a bad idea.WORKING also MIGHT help.
Alright, let's see...first, may I congradulate the FLDS families on the first victory in the Court of Appeals. Though I wish that this would mean the children would be reunited with their parents(and see that 3 small families have been, though they will not be allowed to return to the ranch and have to remain in the San Antonio area under CPS's supervision *rolling her eyes*) I somehow doubt that this will be the last step in what will be a steep climb.
Second, I want to point out just a few things to some people on the blog. Just some light reading mind you...one, is on some of the constitutional abuses that were ignored during the raid and removal of the children in April, not to mention in the 6 weeks since. See here: http://www.redstate.com/blogs/cicero/2008/apr/18/texas_pouring_piss_from_a_boot Written by a lawyer and commented on by other lawyers in the state of Texas as well as former members in the political system there. *smiles*
As for the FLDS families from the ranch living on welfare? You may find it interesting that Texas wants the families to pay for Texas taking THEIR children. http://www.sltrib.com/Polygamy/ci_9332171 That's right, they have taken a stretch of land that was worth $700,000 and made it worth over $20 million. Think about that for a moment.
As for the underaged girls that are being abused, hmmm? http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9343001 and http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/ Even in the most recent stories about the appeal and what the State would like to put forth as proof http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080523/ap_on_re_us/polygamist_retreat;_ylt=AlKsoq7zcL29p4hsqOhGPg6s0NUE
"In justifying their removal of the children from the ranch, Child Protective Services cited as "documented" sexual abuse a statement from a girl who said she knew a 16-year-old who is married with a 5-month-old baby; and the statement from another girl that "Uncle Merrill" decides who and when she will marry."
Well, there are alot of cultures that have arranged marriages and yep, someone knew of ONE girl that was pregnant at 15. Wow, a teenage pregnancy, what a shock.
People, if you're just going as far as what CNN Headline news, Nancy Grace, Larry King, or your nightly news, you're not going to get all the information. It's out there...don't even get me started on the fact that they have removed the Book of Mormon from the children http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9330823 and yes, I know...Warren Jeffs picture was taped inside. So, remove the picture and give them their book back. That is their holy text. It is a text used by a mainstream church, though granted, they use the one that was printed before 1978 because the then prophet of the LDS said that the blacks were allowed to be priests. It's religious persecution no matter how you look at it, they should still have their text. We even allow our prisoners at Guantanimo Bay their Koran.
Okay, I'm done venting for the night. Try to read a little and learn a little and be happy for some parents that actually deserve a bit of leyway.
1st wife
May 24, 2008
Texas Supreme Court is STACKED AGAINST THE FLDS.
Permanent Judicial Commission for Children, Youth & Families
http://www.flds.ws/2008/05/24/is-the-tx-supreme-court-deck-already-stacked-against-flds/#comment-409
“Allow me translate: this Supreme Court ‘commissions’ role is to further the objectives of the corrupt CPS and the lawless cohort family courts”.
I do hope you FLDS give Texas CPS and its budget a good walloping.
You cant quit, your children are at stake. They are only public employees, they dont really care about anything but their pay check at the end of the day, so keep the pressure on them, it will wear them away eventually.
God bless you, but you men, be humble, not self-righteous, and you sisters, band yourselves together in the bonds of pure love and sustain one another through this. Seek for and love truth and righteousness, not just FLDS doctrine and tradition.
You are all in many peoples prayers.
By living these high principles in righteousness we show the world that they are goodly and of God, and so make a stand for the principles of eternity, while if we live these principles by the spirit of man, we give them a bad name and do God a diservice.
God bless your righteous endeavors and may your children all be returned home soon.
Texas State used there resources very unwisely and now are racking up crimes of there own making. They will be many law suites out of all of this and for what. Saving a few girls maybe if the FLDS got it right the state would not be happy at all. Life styles in the USA are changing and the states are starting to use a double standard to combat this. Its costing the tax payers a more money.
Wake up America. Your little town could be next. All under the name of childern, religion, or drugs and yes we need good law enforcement but not like it happen in Germany the style look like what happen in WWII.
The Prophet Joseph Smiths said:
Do NOT wish evil on those that persecute us or do harm to us..for when you see what they go through as a punishment for their wrongs against his anointed..We will mourn and pray for them. Because it will be so terrible...
Our Dear Prophet Uncle John Y. Barlow said:
That the Lord showed him the destructions and what would become of the wicked...and it was so terrible that he plead with the Lord to close the vision..because he could not stand to see any more.
So.. I can only speak for myself, but..I am praying that the people that are persecuting our people would "WAKE UP and REPENT" of their wrongs before it is to late.
I do not wish harm on "CPS" or the "OFFICIALS" that are heading this campaign against us.. but I DO PRAY that the LORDS WILL, will be done on earth as it is in HEAVEN. When he says ENOUGH..then he will bring an end to the wrongs that are brought against his people.
I want the FLDS to sue Texas. During court proceedings, the FLDS would be so exposed. Men would have to testify about their wives, underage sex practices, the Lost Boys.
Laurene Jessop was homeless after her escape, but she said fleeing was the only right thing to do.
She had difficulties in building a life "outside," Laurene Jessop said, because there were many rules she was still forced to follow.
Women in Colorado City are not allowed to laugh, they cannot cut their hair, and they have to wear a dress at all times with full-body underwear.
They are told their bodies are disgusting and they are not allowed to touch them, Laurene Jessop said, and many women have genital infections because they only wash their hair.
Laurene Jessop said she signed the custody of her children to her husband when she was put on drugs in the institution, but she now has her children back with the help of the organization Justice for Children and Flora Jessop.
The children have a hard time adapting to society, Laurene Jessop said, because they do not know the words "I," "me" or "fun" and do not believe their mother, because she is "the wicked one," who ran away
"not allowed to laugh"
"thier bodies are disgusting"
"only wash their hair"
"do not know the words "I", "me" or "fun"
"because she is the wicked one"
ALL B. S. (the rest may apply to her specifically)
What a load of rubbish
I am getting tired of people comparing teenage pregnancy in the flds community to teenage pregnancy in the rest of the US. It's the age difference between the pregnant flds girl and the father of the baby. It's statutory rape. THAT'S THE PROBLEM, not the teenage pregnancy in general. There are plenty of men in the US in jail or prison for this very issue, it's not an anti-flds movement that just started.
Now, with foodstamps. That is government assistance and that pretty much means you can not afford to feed your family without the help of the government. If that is the case, quit having children! Just because you aren't getting cash money from the state, doesn't mean you aren't "bleeding the beast". It's still $$$!!
If it were true they only washed their hair and were so filthy they had genital infections don't you think somebody would have commented about the smell? I've worked in a facility that helped mentally ill people who did not wash themselves for days or weeks and there is a very strong smell.
Also, CPS physically examined all the children including the "girls" who ended up being adult women. No mention of unclean habits or infections in either the adults they had in custody or the children. The exact opposite was observed that they are very clean and consciencious about their grooming.
This is just another lie ignorant people eager to justify their bigotry will swallow whole without thought.
9:09
I think part of the double standard being pointed out is that very young girls show up at Planned Parenthood and places like that to get birth control or abortions and are not questioned about who their sex partners are or what their ages are. How many of these girls are victims of older men? How many are victims of incest? Nobody knows because nobody asks. Nobody investigates. Then in a place where nobody asks or investigates those girls people are absolutely freaking out about the possibility of an FLDS girl the same age having a sexual relationship with an older man.
FLDSguy said,
"I know there are a lot of families on foodstamps & WIC"
What do you think government assistance is?
I'm interested in hearing what everyone feels regarding the picture of Warren kissing the young girl?
Why did CPS not use this evidence earlier? Is there other pieces of evidence like this, I wonder.
I googled Flora Jessop and found a short phase on who she is, she was molested as a young teen, when she spoke out she was told she was lying and placed in her Uncles care, where the state insisted that she attend school. She married a cousin and with him left the community, later they divorced.
I wish people would stop saying these woman that left are lying, why would they make that stuff up.
If life was so great why would they choose to leave.
Texas law is that a child must attend school through the age of 15, the state should provide qualified teachers inside the compound for the FLDS. Mormon Hills school in Lister BC is run this way, Bible Study is thought in school a couple times aweek.
The age difference.
Someone will have to find an official link to stats, but it's believed that one half of teen pregnancies are with "an older male", i.e., an adult who is sufficiently older than the girl to be charged with statutory rape.
And I think the real point of bringing up the "this happens in the cities as well" is to point out the selective enforcement of CPS. They have spent how many millions of dollars to find a few pregnant teens? If they want to find girls impregnated by older men they could walk into any high school or show up at any public hospital maternity ward at much less expense.
Statutory rape? of who exactly. I havent heard a single detail of a m uch older man being married to a 16 year old yet.
Im still waiting to hear what good reason 460 children are being so emotionaly scarred, traumatized and abused by the CPS.
I am sure they could conduct their investigations with the children at home with their parents.
I am getting tired of people comparing teenage pregnancy in the flds to teenage pregnanct in the rest of the US too. In the FLDS the mother is MARRIED and the CHILD is NOT an ACCIDENT.
The PARENTS agree, the GIRL agrees, and it is ETERNAL.
Now with foodstamps. That is government assistance that is available to the FLDS as well as you. If it wasn't there the FLDS would survive just fine. Just because they get foodstamps doesn't mean a dern thing to you.
Laurene told the truth, wether you like it or not...
And your an expert on what the truth is eh.
Perhaps you should apply for jury duty, with the SS.
If you want to know the truth about Flora Jessop read my post called "Experts" on my blog.
LINK
Ive been reading and thinking about this site and situation for some time. Im not FLDS or LDS.
Let me see if I have got the facts straight.
There might be 5 girls under 16 who have been married according to their culture, but not according to ours.
We dont know their husbands ages, but we are told they are old enough to be charged with rape.
WHAT????
So its OK for a pimply faced youngster to have commit fornication with our daughters (and we all know more than 50% of our girls are losing their viginity before 16) but its not OK for a twenty to thirty year old man to marry and take care of a 16 year old girl.
And this is why Texas has abducted their 460 of their children?????
Texas, you are evil @*/#!!! morons.
Go take a good look at yourselves.
Then give them their children back.
TX CPS, as most areas of TX government, are very abusive and uncaring toward citizens. I've been their victim before. The FLDS is lucky to have had enough publicity to get good attorneys working for them. Most of the victims of TX government insanity don't get that chance.
From what I've seen and read about this case, the FLDS children are all happy, healthy and well cared for. They seem to be in much better condition than many other children in homes around TX.
Who's to judge the way people should wear their clothes and hair, and what their religious beliefs are? There's been no proof shown that these families did anything wrong.
If they start taking babies from teen mothers, there's not enough resources in the entire country. TX leads the nation in young teens giving birth out of wedlock. The government (taxpayers) take care of most of them- NOT a loving community like the FLDS!
Who's to say it's better for a teen girl to just sleep around until she gets pregnant, or be married to one man and in a secure relationship when she becomes sexually active. Many cultures in this country have arranged marriages in order to avoid adding to the huge numbers of out-of-wedlock births of mostly unwanted babies, who grow up not even knowing who their father is.
I hope the woman who made the false complaint is punished very harshly. She should have to pay the over $300 million bill CPS ran up (so far) , NOT the TX taxpayers! Make whoever was in charge of this (yet another) CPS mess help the false reporter pay it out of their own pocket- not mine!
"In the FLDS the mother is MARRIED and the CHILD is NOT an ACCIDENT.
The PARENTS agree, the GIRL agrees, and it is ETERNAL.
"
...If the MOTHER is also a CHILD
It's RAPE
A CHILD cannot agree to an ARRANGED marriage.
keep sweet texas
stg
Anon. 7:58: Umm, if I could get along just fine without foodstamps, then wouldn't you agree that I don't need to be on them in the first place?
Flds guy...Elissa Wall didn't give her consent to have sex with Allen, that is why both him and Jeffs were charged with RAPE. If any of the girls currently in custody in TEXAS speak up and say they didn't agree to sex then the man responsible and Jeffs can get charged with Rape.
there is a news article called why did the FLDS pick TEXAS. some very interesting reading, one answer is that when the FLDS bought the Ranch 14 year olds could get married with their parents consent.
A sixteen year old is not a child and while she is going to lack a experience and wisdom to draw upon, it never stopped them having sex with anyone of any age.
So just how is FLDS marriage rape??
Its NOT. Its marriage. You just dont like them, so you use the rape word.
why dont you Texans mind your own business. You do not take as good care of your own children as they do with theirs.
I am disgusted that the CPS has not treated every family as individuals.
I aslo think that the CPS should have sat down with the FLDS leadership to assertain just what their policies are in relation to the marriage of young girls.
The whole thing reeks.
Something stinks in the state of Texas and its the smell of the constitution burning.
Boycott Texas businesses, so that their loby groups can start asking the peoples representatives to get the CPS to operate within the constition.
any sex without consent is rape no matter who or where you are.
while some 16 year olds maybe capable of making their own desission some aren't and 14 year olds should be playing with dolls not their own babies. no matter what the cps had no right to take all the children.
Izzy the picture you are talking about is posted at religion.org. Warren is going to be pissed when he finds out it wasn't destroyed when he ordered it. It is a picture of Dan Barlow's little sister and it was used to try to keep the their baby.
http://www.getreligion.org/?p=3537
ooopps to many websites too many Dans
I've heard a lot of people encouraging the FLDS to sue the state of Texas.
Aren't you, the FLDS, hesitant to do that, as it would force a lot of your practices into the public eye? In the past you've always shunned this sort of attention.
Another thing I've heard is the FLDS mouthpieces expressing regret over not registering to vote and getting more involved in the community there in Texas. It sounded like a threat to me, but realistically how would this have helped you in this situation? You haven't had time to actually get your people in positions of influence in CPS and the local government.
3.48 I think youve hit the nail on the head, some 16 year old are capable of making their own decisions and some are not.
It really comes down to the individual and whose the best judge of that? Their parents thats who.
Problem is, our society sexes up our kids and so a large majority want to experiment with sex and such when they are to young to make good decissions.
Heres a thought. Does our free society with its 50% plus divorce rate indicate that we are better at making decisions for ourselves when we are more educated and older.
It doesnt does it.
Give them back their children and treat each family and case as individuals.
Do you know that some fathers and mothers who are not even pluraly married have had their children taken from them.
No investigation, just a broad across the board rounding up and carrying away.
They locked up over twenty year olds for being minors and took their children too.
It is deploreable, its too horrible to dwell on. How did we get to this who call ourselves civilized?
They will never trust us again will they, and I cant say I blame them.
I think that one reason the FLDS stand behind Warren Jeffs, to the death so to speak, they consider him their "profit". If Jeffs were not a prophet, if he really was a fraud, it would mean their lives and lifestyle are for nothing. That would be a great travesty, to have a life that has no meaning, putting your faith and beliefs down the drain.
FLDS, Keep following the prophet, Warren Jeffs.
And you may be next behind bars!
keep sweet texas
stg
GOD BLESS TEXAS!
Thank you to the State of Texas and CPS workers for not throwing up their hands and returning those children to their parents!
Absolutely, the FDLS should pay for all expenses incurred and the great State of Texas should strip them of their land to do so.
NO decent mother would allow their daughters to be married off to men double their age.
No decent mother would allow their son to be kicked to the curb and told never to come home.
I pray these children never have to return.
BTW, I'm not from Texas. I'm from OHIO.
I see their are some supporters of the FLDS on this blog. Surely, the FLDS must realize their are far more non-supporters in this country.
The United States of America does not support child abuse!
10:28-
The Constitution was supposed to protect the minority from the majority, guess we don't need that anymore.
"The United States of America does not support child abuse!"
The United States of America should tell Texas to quit it then. Just ask the kids who is abusing them.
Listen to this radio interview-
http://www.theedgeam.com/political/main.htm
If you had a heart that wasn't cold and bigoted, you would give them back to their mothers.
Hear the interview here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4828149036256316019&hl=en
Anon - 6:24
is NOT me
Polyg Plant's stooping to new lows
keep sweet texas
stg
Dear Ohio,
Could you please tell me exactly how many young women have been married to men twice their age.
You post is emotion, not clear thinking or justice for 460 children and their families.
Ohiomom;
So you support these acts of terrorism? I guess you are still doing the happy dance over 9-11.
People like you should lose your children too. Looking at the statistics for Ohio; Do your children even know their Daddys' names?
BTW, I'm not from Texas. I'm NOT from OHIO, I'm not an FLDS supporter, and I don't support the Texas misuse of power.
Now as to the flds paying for this raid; Would you want to pay for the damage to a truck because it drove through your house?
Google this word "constitution"
I agree with Ohio.
The FLDS assumes calculated risks with their lifestyle. This is America - not a third world county. Without enforcement of our laws, they are meaningless.
Hopefully the jailbird's followers will realize through all this that Texas is no Zion.
If being against pedophelia makes me cold and biggoted, then count me in.
"The United States of America does not support child abuse!"
And neither does the FLDS. Could you please come up with some girls who were forced into marriage with old men? Can you come up with some children who were physically abused? CPS is having a very hard time actually finding them because they don't exist. Just how many times has CPS lied to us now?
"Polyg Plant's stooping to new lows"
Now who is calling the pot black?
If it is not you, why do you post anonymously?
keep sweet texas
stg
If being against pedophilia makes me cold and bigoted, then count me in.
ME TOO!
FLDS guy,
Here is the great conundrum, the FLDS do not define abuse the same way the law does.
The FLDS interpret the law themselves, and throw out anything that does not fit their lifestyle.
There are many types of abuse, emotional, physical, sexual, to name a few.
How do you define each of these abuses listed?
Sexual
Physical
Emotional
Leave the word forced out of it but you do have girls marring men 2x their age. (16x2=32)When Tereasa Wall was sent up to Canada, Winston offered to take her in as a wife he was 3x her age and when she refussed him she was offered to Brandon who is older, she refused him too and was given to a man almost her age.
FLDS guy have you seen the picture posted at getreligion.org in it the girl appears to be very very young.
...yawn
keep sweet texas
stg
"How do you define each of these abuses listed?
Sexual
Physical
Emotional"
I'll try my best, but you probably won't believe me.
Sexual Abuse:
Molesting young children, inappropriate touching, and especially rape. Rape, in my mind, is defined as commanding or forcing anyone, whether an adult or a minor to engage in intercourse. Somehow, the lie has been put out that the men can command sex with women any time they please or they'll be damned. That's just not the case. It should always be consensual. Commanding a 14-100 year old person to have intercourse is just plain wrong and not at all supported by our religion. I believe we should be responsible for our own actions. This is why I don't really believe this rape as an accomplice charge against Uncle Warren. I can't believe he commanded Allen to rape Elissa. Sure, he tried to keep their marriage together, but if there was any force or rape, the responsibility should rest solely with Allen. Uncle Warren didn't even arrange the marriage; he just performed the ceremony and offered counseling to them. Telling a couple that it is right to raise up children does not equal telling the man it's his duty to rape his wife. There's so much more I could go into on this. But I'll tell you, forcing anyone into any marriage he or she's not comfortable with is abuse.
Physical:
I define that as beating a child, whipping, slapping, bruising, or anything like that. Physical punishment(like a firm swat on the bottom) is to be used very rarely, and it should NEVER EVER cause physical harm to a child.
Emotional:
There are several things that would fall into this category in my mind. This would include things like yelling, threatening(you'll be damned if you don't obey!), swearing at a child, criticizing, or anything else that would make a child feel unwanted. Threatening children that they'll be damned if they don't obey is abuse in my book. I believe in POSITIVE parenting -- focus on the good and build that up. When you raise a child up with constant love, praise, and smiles, it forms a bond where the child loves to obey you because he knows you love him back. When you have this bond of love in place, usually the most "punishment" you need to give to a child getting into mischief is just a stern look.
If you really want to know how children should be raised, read some of Brigham Young's words. He was very, very wise in this regard.
http://www.fldstruth.org/sysmenu.php?MParent=BELIEFS&MIndex=142
Oh, and yes, I've seen the pictures with Uncle Warren and the girl. I would guess that the pictures are at least 15 years old. Uncle Warren hasn't looked that young for a lot of years. As someone who has lived with FLDS people all my life, that girl doesn't look like any 12 year old, either. I'm not totally sure, but I think that may be his wife, Brenda, who is now in her late 30's. I can't be sure though. I am sure it's nothing recent, though.
"It should always be consensual."
So how young can a person be to have consensual sexual relations, including intercourse?
Well, according to Texas, 14 was old enough until a couple years ago. I personally think most girls should be 18 or older before marriage, but some feel they are ready a little before that. My own opinion is that 14 is a few years too young, and the only 14 year old I know of being married was Elissa.
I have to agree with you FLDS_GUY that does look like an older photo. The girl does look to be quite petite next to his 6'5" frame. I don't care for the guy and the girl may be underage, but the media still shouldn't be jumping all over this without any verification as to who and when. What I would like to see is the girl in the photo to come forward if she really was of age at that time.
So, all you FLDS out there, is this just not disgusting? Check out the photos of Warren Jeffs, this just really turns my stomach.
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0527081flds1.html
Maybe these people should rethink Warrens jailhouse confession as true. If these girls Loretta, Merrianne, and "unnamed" could show they were of age when these photos were taken, I could feel a lot better about this.
Ive looked at those pictures and I have been prepared to give the flds the benefit of the doubt and wait for numbers.
Those girls do look young, maybe a bit too young to be entering adult relationships, particularly the second one. Just how young were they?
Answers please anyone? not speculation!
Closed off cultures and singular leaders having great power allows the weaknesses of humans to play out, along with the good.
I think the FLDS would be better off appointing a counsel of brethren with a president instead of one man as 'prophet.'
I see a lot thats good in the flds and I wonder if there is enough evidence to support the charge of a culture of abuse. Perhaps they need counseling more than anything else, they seem to love their children very much and I still havent heard a lot of numbers of very young women being married to much older men. So perhaps that isnt part of their culture, perhaps that is isolated cases.
It sounds as though their girls are simply chosing to marry before they are twenty.
Those photos would make a great billboard along Utah Highway 59 and Arizona Highway 389!
What do the FLDS think of the story of Ruth Stubbs?
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/2003-03-13/news/bound-by-fear-polygamy-in-arizona/
In the photo of Jeffs with Loretta I see a log cabin-type background, much like the interior of the YFZ ranch. If that's the case, the photo is only a few years old at the very most.
He also looks older in his photo with Loretta than he does in the other photo. Regardless, neither of these girls looks a day over 15.
How romantic - does he do the same 3 poses with all of his wives? He'd never get away with that in the outside world - LOL!
#2 is said to be the sister of Dan Jessop, apparently she was 12 in this photo.
I don't think even the FLDS know what Uncle Warren was up too.
Has anyone read "Shattered Dreams" by Irene Spencer? Granted, she was married to one of the LeBaron clan and never lived at YFZ, but it was still the FLDS philosophy they lived by. She mentions a lot of things in the book that are being discussed here...the underage marriages...the women who are emotionally empty in order to 'keep sweet'...families living on the verge of poverty [and below] to sustain a church and it's "prophets".
I'm sure it will be said,by some, that she lies or distorts the truth. But it seems ALL who escape, and live to tell about it, are liars, according to the faithful FLDS.
Curious
The girls in the photos look young but then again CPS took 31 girls into custody that they said were minors based on the fact that they looked young. One "girl" they estimated to be no more than 14 years old turned out to be 27 years old. Until the girls are positively identified and their actual ages determined I'm just not really sure.
The whole thing with estimating ages based on looking young ... fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me.
A question---If the photos [of
Jeffs and the young girls] are dated July 2006, and, as someone mentioned, they appear to have been taken at YFZ, and Jeffs was a federal fugitive at the time, [captured August 2006] couldn't there be future charges of harboring a fugitive? IF he was there, then the men who run YFZ KNEW he was there.
And,where are these young girls now? [If it was mentioned,
I missed it]. Were they taken with the other 400+ offthe ranch or were they moved to,who-knows-where?
"In the photo of Jeffs with Loretta I see a log cabin-type background, much like the interior of the YFZ ranch. If that's the case, the photo is only a few years old at the very most."
Just look again; the photo is dated Jan 26 2005. Wasn't he on the run at that time?
I truly pity any of these good people that believe Warren to be a prophet. He is one sick puppy in serious need of a trip to the vet.
--mc--
I wouldn't get too excited about the log stucture in the photo, it seems this style of home is also used in their Colorado and South Dakota sites.
"But it seems ALL who escape, and live to tell about it, are liars, according to the faithful FLDS."
That may seem to be the case, but it's not really true. There are several who have left who keep to themselves and mind their own business. Many of them are decent and honorable. But, there have been some few who become so bitter and hateful, that it seems their only happiness is in bringing others to misery. I have a brother and a sister who have left, and they both believe they had a great life growing up here, that there was no abuse. Read about this guy who left a few years ago:
http://fldsview.blogspot.com/2008/05/my-cousin-austin-weighs-in.html
"I truly pity any of these good people that believe Warren to be a prophet. He is one sick puppy in serious need of a trip to the vet."
*Yawn* Do you want me to get started on all the sick stuff that goes on in mainstream America? Don't attack me, and I won't attack you, OK? You really don't know me and my intentions, and I don't know yours.
The eyeball test didn't work for CPS before, and I think if all the facts came out about these pictures, you'll find all the girls there 18 or older. I have 2 sisters who are 18. You could probably pass them off as 13 by looking at them. Let's see some proof of identity and proof of when the pictures were REALLY taken.
I can't say whether or not Irene Spencer lies or is telling the absolute truth. After all, she's never been a part of our group.
A man by the name of Dare LeBaron invited some of our people in the 1940's to move to his land in Mexico to try to get away from the persecutions that were happening. Leroy Johnson and a few other men went down there and built several homes. They were ready to move into them, and Mr. LeBaron came to Roy Johnson(I'll call him Uncle Roy from now on) and told him they could move in if they would accept him (Dare LeBaron) as head of the Kingdom of God on the earth. Of course, Uncle Roy wouldn't do this, so Mr. LeBaron told him to leave the property. That's the extent of connection between us and the LeBarons. There's lots more to this story about being in Mexico, but it doesn't really pertain to this discussion. I really have no clue what went on among their group, so I can't make any judgment either way.
I just looked at those photo's, I have to say that those are discusting. Why would any mother let their child do that?
I would think that his confession would be enough to make people think twice about what they are doing in those compounds and what they have been brought up on.
This is nothing but abuse period, not just for the girls but the boys and every grown women and man living this lifestyle. Im sure that when this got started over 100years ago it was about religion but its not anymore its about mental abuse and sexual rights over young girls.
Did any of the FLDS on this blog watch '48 Hours' last night on polygamy? I would be interested in your take on the program.
Here is the website.
http://www.cbsnews.com/sections/48hours/main3410.shtml
One of the girls moved up to adult status is 18 and has a 18 month old son, (born Oct 06). Conception would have been approximatly Jan 06, when she was 15 or 16, now they have to prove that conception happened in TEXAS, before the 55 year old father can be charged.
*Yawn* Do you want me to get started on all the sick stuff that goes on in mainstream America? Don't attack me, and I won't attack you, OK? You really don't know me and my intentions, and I don't know yours.
Go for it, I likely know more than you think. That was only an attack on you if you are Warren Jeffs. I was quite complimentary the people in general. Jeffs has ruined a lot of lives and some of those are people I count as my friends.
*Yawn* Do you want me to get started on all the sick stuff that goes on in mainstream America?
We don't worship the sick stuff that happens in mainstream America. Big difference. We don't put Chester the child molester on a pedestal and worship him.
CBS did a show about the FLDS last night (Tuesday.) Willy Jessop was interviewed in the first fifteen minutes.
All I have to say about him is: He should definitely not be the spoke person for the FLDS.
You'll have to find the clip and watch it for yourselves and then decide what you think of him.
If I were an FLDS member, I would certainly not want him speaking for me!
From khou.com
"CPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins said documents seized at the ranch and now available to his agency buttress what it knew about family ties and “marriages of underage girls” to older males.
“It’s clearer than ever that children were at significant risk of sexual abuse at the ranch,” Mr. Crimmins said. We were prepared to present that evidence to the court today.”
He declined to speculate about whether the Jessops backed off their demand for immediate release of their son to thwart disclosure of evidence."
WOW, what a bombshell.
http://www.khou.com/news/state/stories/khou080527_ar_polygamy.359771e0.html
"WOW, what a bombshell. "
What? That CPS claims to have evidence? That nobody has seen any of the alleged evidence?
Maybe a stink bomb but hardly a bomb shell.
"All I have to say about him is: He should definitely not be the spoke person for the FLDS."
Sure alot better than Flora or Carolyn has been
People want to discredit people like Flora (who I know nothing about... haven't read or heard anything she has said) and Carolyn (I read Escape, and it was very convincing as to what HER experience was), but the fact remains that there are A WHOLE LOT OF BOOKS that describe the abusive, incestuous and sex driven nature of the society that exists within Modern polygamist communities.
Have you read, Under The Banner of Heaven by Jon Krakauer?
First let me explain that I am LDS, and I found this book pretty factual as it relates to the history of the Mormons. Obviously he adds his own spin on some of the events and reasoning behind them, which are very negetive and HIS OWN OPINION, but aside from a few minor details, his FACTS were acurate. Even the LDS church's letter codemning it could only recite a few minor details that he had wrong.
I bring it up, because Jon Krakauer goes into great detail about the polygomist communities, including the programs that are right outside of such communites to help the people who "escape." There are simply way too many people claiming the same brutal and sad accusations (minus the extreme ones like a father "training his daughter," as I read here in this forum - a disgusting thing that I simply can't believe) for at least most of them not to be true. In the Bible, Paul says that all word shall be established in the mouth of two or three witnesses.... well, you have MUCH more than two or three having identical experiences. That tells me there is truth to at least some, if not most of it.
Yes, I realize not all families in these sects are bad and abusive, but it appears that enough are that something needs to be done!!! Any abuse, regardless of where it happens, is evil and must be stopped.
So, have any of you FLDS read Under the Banner of Heaven, and what are your thoughts?
I got to the part where Debbie Palmer got graphic, and then Mr Krak said "..like the Lafferty brothers and FLDS church..." Then I chucked it.
It's as accurate as me watching Jerry Springer and thinking thats how monogomists are. There are simply way to many episodes of Jerry Springer and Maury Povich for it not to be true. Something needs to be done! We have to take your children because of what we saw there and put them in good polygamist homes!
The book that comes the closest to describing the truth about the FLDS was written by a LDS lady named Martha Bradley. It is called "Kidnapped From that Land" and you can read a lot of it online.
CTR
Okay, I have been reading, watching, and studying everything I can get my hands on for literally 2 years.
I read TONS of literature and blogs: pro-FLDS, anti-FLDS, pro-CPS, anti-CPS, articles, books, Book of Mormon, trial testimony, etc.
I so badly want to believe that these people are private, loving, caring, law-abiding people with good intentions that have been led astray by an atrocious abuse of power.
I also understand that if you subscribe to the belief as Warren Jeffs being the prophet and believe in polygamy, then I can imagine that it would be quite an honor for your daughter to be chosen to marry the prophet.
I can even understand that FLDS women and men are trying to lead the US to sympathetically look at their case because they love their children and want the children home.
All of that being said, I just have one simple question that I'd like answered with a bit of respect from an FLDS member:
If the YFZ mothers and fathers don't feel like what they are doing is wrong, then why can't they answer questions honestly? I think the public would much rather hear "It is our religion and we'd like freedom of religion here in the U.S." Rather than looking like devious snakes hiding something. In the interviews, the counter-productive "I don't knows" and "Not to my knowledge" is so absolutely ludicrous! Stand up for what you believe in or don't believe in it. At least you'd be a martyr for your religious beliefs and your fellow FLDS members would respect you. I'd even give sympathy for that. Is anyone with me on this?
KB
MODERATOR:
What about a "what would you do differently if you were in the shoes of the FLDS and trying to get your kids back?"
What would you do differently if you were in the shoes of the CPS and trying to keep the children?
Dont mess with Texas, or we will take your children. We dont need evidence or proof, all we need to know is that you are different. I cant imagine how terrifing it is for many of these children who are not with their parents tonight. This does teach us an important lesson, dont be different follow the norm or the peoples government will destroy your life.
I have just read "Escape" by Carolyn Jessop and I support the state of Texas in taking a step to clean up the scourge of polygamy that has gone on in the USA too long. Sooner or later it had to happen because we don't want another Waco or "Drinking Koolaid in Guyana" event. Without an education, how can these women think for themselves? That has always been the way tyrants control others. (think Stalin) Brainwashing is alive and well in the United States, and if it's in the name of religion, the law seemingly can't touch it. Texas may not have done things perfectly but at least they have the courage to try. I am a GENTILE living in Utah--always surprised by what goes on here.
"what would I do to get my children back?"
Well, first off, I would have stayed with them as long as I could, instead of going back to the compound. I would be completely honest about EVERYTHING! Including which kids are mine, who the father was and at what age I got pregnant. I would tell them where the father is, if he cannot be located.
I would be honest about any abuse that may or may not have happened to me or any of my kids, including anyone else that I may have personal knowledge about.
That is just for starters. Basically, I would do everything the State asked me to do, because getting my kids back would be MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANTYING ELSE IN THE WORLD!!!!
I agree the truth about who belongs to whom would have gone along way in this, maybe even not having the children taken from the Ranch. The so called evidence wasn't used in April because of the confussion caused by FLDS, the Judge ordered the DNA to sort out some the confussion.
I have been wondering how WB is taking all of this in, he spoke to the press again:
...Distancing himself from the FLDS and the teachings of its prophet Warren Jeffs, Mr. Blackmore said in an exclusive interview with The Globe and Mail that the so-called revelations of Mr. Jeffs were inconsistent with the scriptures and "neither Christian, Mormon or decent."
Mr. Jeffs, who has been the leader of the sect since his father, Rulon Jeffs, died in 2002, micromanaged the private lives of couples, breaking up hundreds of families for reasons that the prophet said were not yet revealed, according to Mr. Blackmore. Family units were "rearranged," children renamed and identities changed, he said.
The whole interview is here. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20080528.BCPOLYGAMY28/TPStory/National
"WOW, what a bombshell. "
Yes, a bombshell. CPS was trying to get girls on the witness stand. One was to testify she was married at age 11 to Warren Jeffs. Others were supposedly going to testify about their spiritual marriages as minors. If that wouldn't give CPS more credibility, I am not sure what would.
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/metro/5804728.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24878696/?GT1=43001
HOOORAY!!!!!! Snoopy Dance, Snoopy Dance, Snoopy Dance!!!!!
The "bombshell" backfired big time!
http://northamericapolygamy.blogspot.com/
Congratulations to all the children who will someday be returned to their mothers!
I am still not going to hold my breath. Does Walther still have to abide by the 10 day ruling of the Appellate Court?
This ruling only applies to about 124 children from 38 mothers. the rest will probably get the chance soon. But the 5-8 girls that are possibly under age Mothers will still need their day in court.
Can they charge Jeffs with any thing for kissing young girls like that, if he didn't have martital relations with them?
I agree with....
"HOOORAY!!!!!! Snoopy Dance, Snoopy Dance, Snoopy Dance!!!!!"
Now, I am wondering as to when CPS will finally let the children go from their clutches.
I hope CPS will require that the BIOLOGICAL parents pick up their children. I think it's strange that there was ever any confusion.
330 children will be returned Monday
Must have photo made with parent.
Parents must sign a release agreeing to obligations
-Must tell CPS where they are staying within 72 hours
-Must tell CPS if residence Changes at any time
-CPS can visit unannounced 8am to 8 pm
-All parents must take parenting classes
There may be more requirements.
This is the funniest defense I've ever seen.
flds_guy said:
"I also find it funny that people believe our children know absolutely nothing about the outside world, and have been walled up in this "compound" with great high walls(at least 10 ft. high) and no way to escape. Umm, reality check, people. It's just a barbed-wire fence. "
just.
This comment is for flds_guy:
I've read the majority of your comments, and I can honestly say that your defense of Warren Jeffs is weak. Stating that he ONLY married one underage girl doesn't change the fact that he should be tried for the sexual abuse of a minor. The man is a creep. Isn't he also being tried for 3 other counts of sexual abuse? Two twelve-year-olds and another fourteen-year-old, right? Of course, those were "spiritual" marriages. I'm glad flds members like yourself are willing to share their thoughts, so I can tell you how sick your religion is. All I can say is that if your leader can't live right, why listen to his teachings? Seriously, the man is on his way to prison.
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