FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs may be serving life in prison, but his followers continue with their work on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas where the group's white limestone Temple towers over the town they are building. Polygamy, the practice of plural marriage, appears to be alive and well in the Lone Star State, despite laws to the contrary.
Tuesday, May 20, 2008
More questions and answers
I was very glad to see the responses to many of the questions on the last thread. And frankly, I was surprised. The FLDS have not been as open in the past. Keep it up! Here is another thread as that last was getting very long.
117 comments:
Anonymous
said...
In the case of Elissa Wall and Alan Steed. Are they biological first cousins, or just cousins though marriage? And if he did have sex with her when she was underage and not legally married should he not just plead guilty? I am sure a judge would be aware of the circumstances and be more understanding to a guilty plea.
Does Merril Jessop stay in contact with Warren Jeffs during his time in prison? What is the general feeling about Warren's prison sentence? It seems like those in the FLDS feel they are above the reproach of the law.
I too would like to know why so many young boys "choose" to leave and so many young girls "choose" to stay.
From what I have personally seen during my limited association with some of these people.
Besides the mathimatical numbers, the boys are expected to move into a leadership role. They are also required to give about two years of themselves to the community before they are accepted into that role. This period as "missionaries" can be very demanding and trying for many. The girls at that age are expected to be more subservient, and are welcomed with open arms into the family (usually) of the prophet's choosing. Therefore the boys have the two year window to mature and make a choice for themselves. During this same time in their lives the girls may already have a child or two and can end up feeling trapped in a relationship finding it very difficult to leave. A males choice to leave is rarely challenged, but when a girl is unhappy, her desire for something else can even lead a choice of "suitors". Every attempt is made to place a girl before she is "allowed" to leave.
are you quite sure that FLDS boys do missionary work at ANY age? I mean, they don't welcome outsiders. And so they do missionary work at 13, 14, and the girls are getting married off at that age, spiritually, that is.
I have never heard of FLDS doing missionary work. They are a closed society.
are you quite sure that FLDS boys do missionary work at ANY age? I mean, they don't welcome outsiders. And so they do missionary work at 13, 14, and the girls are getting married off at that age, spiritually, that is.
I have never heard of FLDS doing missionary work. They are a closed society.
5/20/2008 11:30 AM
At about 17 or 18 they start this period as "missionaries" and is spent mostly as unpaid workers within the communities, or any earnings given to the community. It is after this time you will find most of the young men will given a wife at about 19 or 20 and she is generally about two years younger than he.
my neighbors are very open and frindly and individuals. My neighbors come to my son's games, exchange hello's in the yard, help each other out. My neighbors invite me into their homes. My neighbors are diverse. Some are Christian, some are not. Some are Anglo, some are not. Some are gay, some are not. Some are old, some are young.
Seems like my neighbors are very much individuals. They don't wear their hair the same way, believe the same way, dress the same way, or live the same way.
Steven if you wish to become a polygamist you don't need to convert to the FLDS. (Your wife's "cousin" may need a place to live.) A friend of mine let her husband's ex move back into the house so her children could be close to their father, (what happend behind the bedroom door was none of my business). Later they moved to a small compound with a couple of trailers, in order for the x to keep recieving welfare payments she needed her own residence. Don't forget about community property, both 'wives' will be intitled to their share if either chooses to leave, lol or throw you out.
In the case of Elissa Wall and Alan Steed. Are they biological first cousins? YES or just cousins though marriage? probally YES too. And if he did have sex with her when she was underage and not legally married should he not just plead guilty? Allen was under the influence that he had the right to have sex with Elissa, she was his wife.
What would or will it take for the FLDS communities to open up more to the rest of us 'outsiders'?
I think the christian thing to do is for us outsiders to start by treating polygamy as practiced by the FLDS at least as non-judgmentally as we treat polygamy practiced by hedonists on The Girls Next Door...
....and maybe we shouldn't take their kids, either.
Don't you people realize that you chased off the FLDS that were posting on that other thread?
"What would or will it take for the FLDS communities to open up more to the rest of us 'outsiders'?"
-Start by not answering your own questions. With insults -Realize that onthestreet does not represent the FLDS -Don't ask for the purpose of painting them as evil (ala flds101.blogspot.com) - Dont ask insulting questions like "Why is your prophet such a pervert?" or "Why don't you care about your children?" -Don't assume ANYTHING - Allow them to be racist (ie Jerimiah Wright) - Accept that polygamy is not abusive in nature any more than guns are. (ie "marriage kills people") - Realize that the FLDS believe as strongly in their religion as you do about yours, if not more. -Realize they are willing to break the law if the law is written to stop their religious beliefs. -Don't try to "convert" them against their will. - Treat them as equal's rather than "less than"
Follow the rules above and they wouldn't hesitate to "open up"
I wouldn't hesitate to answer your questions if you didn't insult my answers, or answer your own questions for me with insults.
I will answer the first posters question on here, and we'll see how it goes. (Some FLDS ARE reading this)
-Elissa's mother Sharon and Allen's father Lawrence are half brother and sister. They have the same grandfather, Newell, but different grandmothers. -No, she was not underage for consentual sex. -He has been charged with RAPE, not underage marriage. (Don't feel bad you are only as confused as the jury was about which law was broken) -A guilty plea to Rape has a minimum sentence of five years. Besides Elissa doesn't think Allen is guilty, she said he was a "victim" too. (Several jurors agreed)
I am familiar with the CPS as my sister had her children removed from the home related to drug abuse and they (CPS) did remove ALL children from the home until the mother worked her treatment plan; 2 have been returned and one remains in foster care. Since FLDS considers their LARGE compound "A large family unit" then CPS was right in removing all children until it was determined to be a safe environment. If one grows up in that environment thinking that treatment was normal then they just accept that that is the way things are suppose to be, does not in any way make it right and in fact illegal. I also work in a prison and see ALOT of parents getting prison time for a wide range of abuse. Not only are the men getting time the women are getting prison time as well for "failure to protect" or failure to report abuse". These people are getting the same as the mainstream people get, it just seems more intense not because of eligion but becasue of the numbers involved. If they want to say they are one big happy family then they ae being treated as one big happy family. My questions are as follows. 1) Where are the elderly ppl both men and women? If you notice once they are too old to work or bare children they seem to disappear. 2) Where are their ppl buried? 3) All of the children seen on TV are up walking and talking, where are the wheelchairs, walkers etc, surely they are not ALL healthy? 4) Where are the childrens toys? No playground equipment, bicycles no nothing?
There is an article http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_9322072 that says that one of the FLDS men that was excommunicated is trying to get his kids out of state custody in Texas.
What is the view about men raising their children without a mother. Would the FLDS approve of a man having custody, if it were not for the Texas problem?
I don't agree with your lifestyle or your religious beliefs. Despite the differences or my feelings about the charges alleged about you my family remembers you and your children in our prayers every night. Despite the evil, hateful things being posted here and said in the news there are many of us who are storming the heavens with our prayers right along side you.
To those with some rude comment to make about this post:
God knows you and your sins. Ask for forgiveness for your hateful thoughts and words and he will give it to you. :)
CTR .... Thank you. You said it all .... I am not FLDS, but I feel for your situation. I too keep you all in my thoughts daily. Thank you for being honest, and only asking for the respect you deserve. I will not 'assume' anything. I think we all need to stop believing everything we see, and read via the media. I'm thankful for this blog spot ... it goes a long way toward understanding. TWR
Most of the questions above my last post are not much more than phishing. The only thing to refer you all too is Where the Lost Boys go
4:02 "Since FLDS considers their LARGE compound "A large family unit"
-Don't assume ANYTHING
They don't, they never did consider it one family unit. It is the anti-FLDS who are "assisting through hatred" that have told them this. See: Children Lived in Seperate Homes
Sorry, Pligchild. I don't recall deleting any of your posts.
I only delete vulgar or offensive posts, except Street who is supposed to stay on his own thread. I also try to prevent copyrighted material from being posted, especially since receiving a nasty note from the Salt Lake Tribune's webmaster.
And, I don't allow cross posting. If there is something on someone else's blog I would rather you post a link than cross post it here. Although things slip through from time to time.
"Why do the FLDS women dress like they are still in the 19th century?"
We are taught that our bodies are sacred and that we are to keep them covered. (I personally don't understand how women can walk around with everything they have showing.. breasts..butt..etc.) It's degrading for the woman and disgusting to look at. (MY OPINION) of course..no offense intended.
Back to the topic...
As far as the long plain dresses are concerned..this started several years ago. Before that time we pretty much dressed in whatever we felt like wearing just as long as it covered up our bodies. (denim jumpers,skirts and blouses, homemake clothing etc..)
There was a few women who started wearing the plain dresses and then it was rumored that every lady in town was to dress this way..some went wild and threw out everything in their closets..others gave their clothing away..still others kept wearing what they had until it wore out and then changed over. I never officially heard it announced that the women were required to dress in plain dresses..but then again I was not able to attend every meeting as I had plenty of little ones to care for. I asked my Husband on several occasions that I had here such and such about our clothing..and he always replied.."Dearie that is up for you to decide..dress as you are impressed..if I do not like something I will let you know."
I have some long dresses that I enjoy wearing and I also have some skirts,blouses,etc..but they are all modest looking.
I have read as much of Street's thread as I could make sense of... after a while... it just does not fit together for me...
I have read the comments claiming that his beliefs do not represent the mainstream FLDS beliefs... but ..... who is he and how does he and his beliefs fit into the general picture? It is hard to believe that he thought all this up on his own. It seems he must have been taught much of it at one time by someone...
Giving him his own thread is a brilliant strategy, by the way.
I asked these questions on the previous post, but they weren't answered. I understand that the other posts became offensive. If what I asked, over stepped any bounds, please let me know. I'm just curious. I know its a lot of questions. I appreciate any answers... I'd like to know more about what the after life (HEAVEN) is and what it means to members of FLDS vs LDS. What happens to you when you die? Is the whole concept behind polygamy and many children have everything to do with the after-life? Do you believe you are all reunited in the afterlife? If so, I'm, trying to understand how you can be with your children, when they have thier families. Or is everyone all together? Or are the men reunited with thier sons familu? Do you believe you can commuicate with those that have passed on? Can everyone (men and woman) hear the voice of God? Are all wives considered equals here on earth and/or heaven? Who considers the wives worthy of heaven, God, the prophet or thier husbands? What happens if a woman dies before her husband?
I don't think it is "disgusting" too see a woman's body.
I don't think it is disgusting to wear a short sleeved shirt or a skirt or shorts, or even a Brazillian bikini when the time and place allows. But, I guess that is why I could never be FLDS.
I am trying to imagine playing basketball or waterskiing in one of thse outfits.
anyway, it is sad to me to hear someone say that the female body showing is disgusting. *sigh*
It is no disgusing, it is quite eautiful and if a woman is comfortable showing it off in an appropriate way, God Bless her.
To finish 4:02 (It seems you have swallowed everything anti-FLDS)-
1)Elderly people are well taken care of, when I was young some went to nursing homes (FLDS ran a couple of them), but now no one goes to nursing homes. There are many nurses and home-health ladies in the FLDS. They only "seem to dissappear" from ANTI-FLDS crusaders. Want to hear from an Eighty-year-old yourself? Read Uncle Sams letter
2) There are two graves at YFZ. Most of the people who have died in the last 4 years are buried in Colorado City.
3) The percentage of special needs children is not greater than in your community. (No the FLDS do not "get rid" of them, that is a HORRID and DISGUSTING accusation)
4) When I was young our "store bought" toys rarely lasted more than a few days. So most of what we played was what we enjoyed amongst ourselves. In Texas most of the homes were WAY better, see: See HERE
From 2-6 year old schedule: "Mothers do not just dump out toys and leave the children to play. The children are taught activities that enlarge their horizons. Children become very selfish, self-centered and irritable when they play with toys all day. An occasional time of throwing balls, working with molding clay, going for a walk, jumping on a trampoline, swinging, reading nature books, etc., are also needed for the growth of healthy children." (Can you imagine how AWESOME that would be?)
anon flds- I do not want to compromise ANY effort to get those children out of prison. But personally (my own views), at least until they are 9-10 children need their mother WAY more than they need their father.
4:45- "Why not the men?"
Ever looked at how the men dressed in the 19th Century? The FLDS men wear MORE clothing than what you would see on "Little House on the Prarie" It is interesting to look at the history of clothing and styles. Men's clothing has not changed a lot, but womens clothing has dissappeared, replaced by paint.
(Admin or fttc, you may want to start a "rebuttal" thread so the anti-FLDS can have a place to vent so their heads don't explode)
I am appalled by the way the FLDS is and has been treated by the CPS, by the judicial system, by the media, and by the mainstream public alike.
I frankly wouldn't care to justify my religious beliefs, or sexual practices (dull as they may be) or dietary habits or dress codes or social mores or whatever to anyone, much less to anyone who had just 'nabbed my kids.
My response to anyone posing such questions would be something like "mind your own business", but I surely wouldn't handle it as politely as this has been handled by so many FLDS.
In that vein, I think I just have two questions for any FLDS that might be lurking about:
1. Is it your understanding that the US Constitution prohibits government from interfering with the free exerise of religion?
2. Is it your understanding that the US Constitution guarantees that people can be secure in their persons, houses and effects, and that the government is prohibited from making unreasonable searches and seizures?
Just read something VERY interesting in the paper just now.
A man from Utah appeared in court yesterday to get 5 of his children. Seems as he was excommunicated from the Hildale community and his wife and children were reasigned to YFZ. He is the noncustodial parent and wants his children back. The article said he has 12 other children. Did not say he was a polygamist or not.
I also read where the state of Texas is taking a very hard line with these parents. Texas is not Utah, it is not Arizona. Texas has VAST rescources and won't back down from this. It si costing 1.5 million every month to the state. The DNA testing of these people are more than the entire DNA tests last year for the whole state.
I guess FLSDS thought they could get awasy with the same things they have gotten away with in Utah and Arizona, but Texas is going to be very different. HUGE state with HUGE rescources.
Just a suggestion to those that are insatiably curious about the FLDS (as I am)....
When all this started coming out I, like many others, became fascinated and curious (I'm not one who is judging) so I started really reading up (in depth) on the history of Mormonism from the begining. I think it's really helped me understand some of the things that seem "peculiar" to a lot of us. It helps give you a more balanced understanding I think of where these people are coming from. Just my 2 cents.
I believe in modesty, and don't think one should be half dressed when going into the public. But would find it very difficult to crawl around in my garden in a long skirt. As for prints, in a statement made by Teresa Wall Blackmore she said it was under direction of the Profit that they could no longer wear prints. Daphne Brahman interviewed several young men that have left the FLDS, you can find her articles at the Province news site. Many of these young men do not refer to themselves as Lost Boys. (also you can google Truman Oler for his story.) cg
-Believing plural marriage is a great priveledge and brings honor and glory in heaven. -Allowing girls to get married when they want to. - Minding their own business
Steven: “Then do you profess to ignore the laws of the land? No; not unless they are unconstitutional, then I would do it all the time. Whenever the Congress of the United States, for instance, pass a law interfering with my religion, or with my religious rights, I will read a small portion of that instrument called the Constitution of the United States, now almost obsolete, which says -- "Congress shall pass no law interfering with religion or the free exercise thereof;" and I would say, gentlemen, you may go to Gibraltar with your law, and I will live my religion. When you become violators of the Constitution you have sworn before high heaven to uphold, and perjure yourselves before God, then I will maintain the right, and leave you to take the wrong just as you please.” (John Taylor 3/31/1867)
"I also read where the state of Texas is taking a very hard line with these parents. "
http://www.sltrib.com/Polygamy/ci_9332171
Gee, according to this article Texas judges are having a hard time holding your "hard line".
"Texas is going to be very different. HUGE state with HUGE rescources."
That's good because Texas is going to need a texas size bank account for all the law suits that are sure to follow. Starting with adults who provided legitimate state issued identification but were held by a government agency against their will for 6 weeks without any due process. Ooops!
angel- I have no idea who street is, but he sounds like someone who grew up in the FLDS, but now his brain is warped by immorality, and possibly drugs or alcohol. Brilliant linguist though.
6:25- Your questions are not offensive, just the answers would take a lot of space and time to explain. I'll work on it.
7:21- *sigh* What is sad is your views on nudity is "normal". To the FLDS the body is a sacred gift, meant to be purified, cherished, and protected; not broadcast to the world. You don't have to agree, but this post was for FLDS views, not yours.
Apparently the dumb-a$$ CPS workers showed up out there without a warrant and expected to be let in. They were responding to reports there may be more children on the ranch.
How might FLDS leadership view Arthur Barlow helping his estranged spiritual wife Esther in her efforts to get the kids back? Is he repenting from afar or is he totally excommunicated?
I have seen some answers saying that the boys are sent on missions and there was someone else answering that the FLDS is no longer accepting new recruits.
Could it be the case that the community in Texas did NOT seek new recruits or go on missions?
Can anyone name a person on the Texas ranch that was not born into the group and was a convert?
You quoted, The children are taught activities that enlarge their horizons. Children become very selfish, self-centered and irritable when they play with toys all day.
What sorts of activities would an elementary school aged child do other than play with toys and go to school? How do the mothers keep them busy?
No one, not even CPS, disputes that the children aren't very well behaved and that the mothers aren't highly organized!
What do you mean nobody knows for sure whether or not wives are assigned before the age of 17?
That doesn't make any sense.
With such a tight-knit group (lots of family members within etc.) it seems highly unlikely that it's not known and talked about when and how someone is assigned, especially if they are youngish.
I've heard the claim that the FLDS don't keep track of age. Is that true? It sure seems we are being set up to believe they didn't know the girls were too young.
Texas Native 9:33-- I had asked that question, in a sort of different form, but never got an answer. So I'll try and piggy back onto your query....and add a few extra. Are all births and deaths, of FLDS members, registered with the state in which they are born? If not...why? If there are birth certificates on file in Texas, or Utah or Arizona,etc, then it should be fairly easy to disprove [or prove] that there are no underage marriages. AND prove parentage. AND...what happens when it's time for the US Census? Who decides who is counted and who isn't. If there are no records, how do people prove they exist? Which brings me to taxes....If each child is required by law [and I know if I am wrong someone will correct me]to have a social security number to be claimed as a dependant...how do taxes get done? Head of household with 45 dependants should cause any IRS computer to go "HUH?".
Although I am now retired, I worked as an educator and as a medical professional. Both occupations made me a mandated reporter to CPS. That means that I was required by law to report suspected child abuse or neglect and that failure to do so made me subject to prosecution. I also worked at times with children who had been abused and neglected and who were in the custody of the state, in foster care, or group home situations. Most of the children I worked with had parental rights terminated, as they had been victims of severe abuse and/or neglect. I also have worked with shelters for battered women and children and worked through those agencies at re-uniting families under the supervision of CPS. I have gained some small amount of wisdom and knowledge about the system during the 30 or so years of working with it.
I would like to share some of that information with you, as it might help some to better understand what is currently happening. I am not defending it as morally or ethically correct.... but it is the system that currently exists.
1. The legal system that surrounds CPS is not the same system that surrounds criminal or civil law. It is a system all its own. It has been tried before the US Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds and been upheld by that court. Basically, CPS operates outside the normal confines of the law in order to protect children. They can take any child from any place at any time without a search warrant. They then go before a juvenile judge within a set number of days for a hearing and at that time the judge will make a determination as to whether or not the child should be returned to his or her home immediately or if there seems to be cause to continue the investigation. Temporary custody is then awarded to CPS and another hearing date is set. Those hearings are taking place now. CPS will present all info they have and a service plan. That is a plan that outlines what CPS wants the family to do in order to have their child returned to them. Future hearing dates will be set and the judge will evaluate the family's progress in completing their plan.
The hearing phase can continue for up to a year. If the family is co-operating and attempting to complete their plan no actual charges will be filed, usually. If there is significant criminal behavior involved, charges will be filed in criminal court. Criminal trials are different from these hearings. The only way that these hearings will progress to a trial is if the state decides that it is in the best interest of the child to have parental rights terminated and to be placed for adoption. As long as the hearings are happening, the state is trying to re-unite the family.
2. During this phase the state will always try to err on the side of the child.... not the parents or the rights of the parents. That means that "innocent until proven guilty" does not apply.... because the child's safety must be assured during the investigation and proof of guilt phase of that statement. The right of the child to not be abused or neglected is seen as superior to any rights of the parent...
3. The service plan usually includes unlimited access to the home of the parent by CPS for unannounced visits and inspections. By turning CPS away at the gates of the ranch, the parents are violating their service plans and that may not serve them well in future hearings.
People keep talking about the Constitution and about the rights guaranteed by it... When it comes to CPS... the rights of the child supersede the rights of the parents... That is how the Supreme Court has interpreted the actions of CPS in the past. This is not the first time that CPS has removed children from families. The deck is stacked in their favor. The best and fastest way for the parents to get their children back is to co-operate with CPS and work their service plan to the letter.
Just as FLDS is made up primarily of well intentioned good hearted people... so is CPS. The majority of the people who work for CPS are genuinely heart broken by the horrendous abuse and neglect of children that they deal with everyday.
Belief in God and commitment to a religious lifestyle is not particularly reassuring to those who deal with abused children. Many extreme religious sects practice forms of child abuse and neglect as part of their "religions". Many mentally disturbed abusers use religiosity as a defense. "God told me to plant my seed in my 12 year old daughter" was the defense of the father of the first abused child I ever dealt with. And the mothers belief that because God revealed it to her husband it must have been the right thing to do was no easier for me to understand.
Perhaps this does not happen in FLDS... but it does happen. It happens often... more often than you would think. People who work everyday with abused children see a lot of it. My heart goes out to the parents and children of FLDS... but also to the workers with CPS who have seen this on a smaller scale many times.... imagine the horror if it were true of an organization the size of FLDS.
I hope that this information will be of some use or interest to some of you.
When we say that we have freedom of religion, what is the definition of religion? When you worship and follow a human, does that constitute religion? Is that what our country was founded on? That was considered a dictatorship and I don't see the FLDS as a religion but rather a dictatorship. You either follow what the prophet says or you are out.
When abuse takes place and everyone says that it is okay because the prophet said so, who are you worshipping?
When Jesus dealt with the Samaratin woman who was caught in adultery, did He say that it was okay and we should all do it? He forgave her and told her to sin no more. If they are basing their "religion" on Jesus, they need to do a better job of listening to what He taught.
Wow! The youngest undisputed "teen mother" CPS has in their custody has no children and has passed a pregnancy test. There goes their 14-17 years old range. Another "14 year old" they had turned out to be TWENTY SEVEN. There are 18 total who have proven they are either not pregnant or mothers or in some cases not even teenagers. Woooops!
The hair-raising thing about this story is that when the 14 year old girls attorney asked the judge to change the girls classification the judge told him that was irrelevant to the case before him. WHAT??? Whether the girl who is reported to be the victim of sexual abuse is pregnant or not is irrelevant to the case in front of you? Her attorney asked that CPS be compelled to change her classification and amend their records. The judge told the attorney that would have to be taken up with CPS.
Okay, the fact that the atty had to ask that CPS be 'compelled' to change their record makes me think he already asked CPS and it didn't happen. What is going on with this judge that he won't acknowledge the fact that the girl is not pregnant?
I'd like to hear an age range from CPS now that so many have been taken off their list.
I certainly do not believe that CPS is omnipotent and I do not believe I said that anywhere.
They are, however, part of an extremely powerful system backed by a very large body of law. It is certainly possible to present a legal challenge to that system and to fight it all the way to the Supreme Court. And there is a very small chance of effecting change in the system and of having their powers curtailed and their decisions reversed.... not much of a chance but a chance. The Don Quiote in my nature finds tilting at that windmill appealing. The parent in me thinks the children might be grown before that battle could be fought and won.
The reality of CPS is what it is. They are powerful. They are backed by law. They have custody of the children.
One must pick carefully which battle to fight first. If these parents asked my advice... which they have not... I would advise them to work with their case workers to develop a service plan that they could accomplish so that they could regain custody of their children as quickly as possible.
I feel that encouraging them to take any other course of action is irresponsible. However, I don't walk in their shoes or in yours and the choice is not mine to make. I have shared with you what small wisdom and knowledge I have. Perhaps it will be of use to someone.
as for the prarie dresses and FLDS covering up.. I think the body is sacred as well. They don't have a monopoly on that. Doesn't mean I dont' think teh female body breasts and legs and arms are "disgusting." NOt talking nudity here, how about a knee legnth business skirt, capri pants, etc.. not disgusting. I don't think a high school or college athlete playing tennis or volleyball or swimming or basketball is disgusing. Too bad the flds girls don't get a chance to comepete like that. Guess they are competing in other ways.
I think it is a travesty to inflict the notion that the female body MUST be always covered up... what a waste of time.
That wearing shorts is a sin, or even a short sleeved shirt. Isolation Isolation Isolation
And how silly that wearing your hair "hanging down" makes you a whore or look like a whore. How ridiculous. How in the world could these people fall for all of these ridiculous rules.
The FLDS go by the age of consent in each State. Elissa Wall is an example of a girl assigned at 14. "-No, she was not underage for consentual sex."(pligchild stated) You must remember when the YFZ started the age in Texas was also 14. Most of the woman are from Arizona or Colorado. Most marriages are celestial not legal so they would not be recorded by the State. The Midwife must record all births, these records would have been among the records taken from the ranch. If the age of any girl at the time of birth is lower the 14 years 9 months the father can be charged with underage sex. Question: or more of a request, can one of the FLDS ladies explain Chastity.
I have been trying to learn as much as possilbe about the FLDS way of life. I would like to know if a woman decides to leave are they allowed to take their children with them? If a woman told her sisterwives and husband she is leaving would they try to stop her and her chidlren from leaving and not allow her to leave or allow her but not the children to leave?
AUSTIN, Texas (KXAN) -- The Third Court of Appeals has ruled that Child Protective Services did not have the right to remove children from the Yearning for Zion ranch last month.
I guess that I did not explain myself enough..so I will try again.
When I said that women showing off their breasts & butt..and it looking disgusting..what I ment was..
Women that dressed in clothing that deliberately shows what they own. "dress like flypaper..attract flies"
I have been very embaresed for some women that feel like they have to dress skimpy to get noticed.
ON THE OTHER HAND..I HAVE SEEN MANY BEAUTIFUL WOMEN FROM THE "OUTSIDE WORLD" WHO DO DRESS MODEST. I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST WOMEN WEARING SHIRTS,PANTS,SHORT SLEEVES ETC..BUT EVEN THOSE CLOTHING THAT I AM AWARE OF ARE MODEST LOOKING IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR THAT.
Why aren't you in school at this hour? Where is your mother? I'm assuming you're a child because only someone immature would come up with something as ridiculous and unimaginative as that. Maybe you're just mentally stunted in childhood.
they can't just give the kids back the same way they took them. not unless CPS and the Judges just throw up their hands and walk away. they're still in the care of the CPS you have to come get them. easier said than done
regardless what the circumstances the CPS has ways and rules to everything thing they do including follow up access to any kids under previous care
you know the same access that was refused to them just yesterday?
Now that the mothers should be getting their children returned to them, how many of them plan to return to YFZ? After all; some had told the court they would like to be elsewhere with the children.
"regardless what the circumstances the CPS has ways and rules to everything thing they do including follow up access to any kids under previous care
you know the same access that was refused to them just yesterday?"
According to the judges who handed CPS their asses today they had no basis to take the kids in the first place so I'm pretty sure there's not going to be any "follow up" on their ill-gotten charges.
Also, in case you missed it CPS also got their asses handed to them at the gates to the ranch yesterday too.
Waay too many questions to answer. I will address the one directed to me from 8:47 - Go to captivefldschildren.org and read the whole thing.
Another question that I saw twice, and will address- From Native Texan "Are men assigned wives younger than 17?"
The reason the question is danced around is because it is a rather insulting question. Not the age part as much as the "assigned" part.
The answer to a question like: "Do girls get married under 17?" The answer is: "Sometimes" If the question is "Are girls forced to marry under age 100?" The answer is "No".
Let’s see, what other question..... Ah, Steven: "What priesthood authority do each of them claim?" Go to sltrib.com's Polygamy files and there is a PDF called "CHARTING POLYGAMY LEADERSHIP" (another skewed version at mormonfundamentalism.com)
8:22 asked- "Do men marry older women? or is it only when they are reassigned? How are woman with fertility problems viewed in FLDS?"
The first answer is yes but rare. I know a good man who has several wives and not one is younger than him and a few who have only one wife and she is older. The second question I answered in the other "questions" post.
And last but not least, 4:53- "When you worship and follow a human, does that constitute religion?"
Do you want to know? Are you following the rules?: -Start by not answering your own questions, With insults -Don't ask for the purpose of painting them as evil
The FLDS follow Warren Jeffs like Israel followed Samuel.
"When abuse takes place and everyone says that it is okay because the prophet said so, who are you worshipping?"
No one I know would say it was "OK" to abuse anyone. All abuse, whether in the FLDS or out should be prosecuted FULLY! At the same time, I do not consider marriage in and of itself to be abuse. See THIS
Thank you for answering my question about marriage. I didn't mean to phrase it in an insulting way, but when the women and men aren't necessarily chosing one another (rather, the leader choses them), the word "assign" seems to fit.
I realize it's a rather academic word for an emotional topic, but to me it doesn't imply force but rather a lack of involvement in the selection.
First, the FLDS are just, if not more, judging than any other "outsider" on this thread. They are the ones teaching that outsiders are evil, saying the moms are lazy and just dump toys for their kids, etc. How would they know this? When were they in the evil outsiders homes to see this? It's what they've been told us evil outsiders do. I have 3 young children. They DO NOT sit around the TV all day, they DO NOT play with a pile of toys all day. They do help with yard work, the garden, animals and housework. Make art work, swing, slide, explore, etc. My children spend their time being children. I let them live the life of a child. Get off your high horse people, you aren't perfect and neither are your kids. I've heard of a lot of people claiming to be prophets or gods. They live in the mental institution.
Pligchild, How can you justify Warren Jeffs' teachings about black people being evil? Some of his ideas really do not seem God-honoring. Also, why won't the FLDS allow anyone else to join? God clearly commanded His people to go into the world and make disciples of all nations. Last question: how has the FLDS community responded to Warren Jeffs' admission from prison that he is not in the priesthood and is not the true prophet? Thank you so much for your willingness to talk about these topics with us! I'm just curious to understand. -N.
native texan- I completely understand that you would feel that way. "Assigned" does fit academically, but it is often used to imply that those who engage in what we call "inspired" marriage are getting married against their will. When you are of marriageable age and are praying every night for Heavenly Father to "inspire the Prophet in my behalf" and he chooses, it is a choice we made to us.
8:01- "They are the ones teaching that outsiders are evil, saying the moms are lazy and just dump toys for their kids, etc." See: "All outsiders are evil?" Although I am sure there are a few in the FLDS who think "all" outsiders are evil (its rather hard to argue with them now), but most know good people everywhere. I am glad that you agree with the FLDS mothers who said: "Children become very selfish, self-centered and irritable when they play with toys all day" And I hope you don't get your children stolen for your religion.
-N.- I do not have enough time in the day that the anti-FLDS do. If I did I would put the ENTIRE audio that they have clips of on the web. Most of what is quoted by him are quotes from Brigham Young and John Taylor. I never heard Warren Jeffs say that "black people are evil" as you say, but I know he taught that the "race" is where the modern immoral music, culture, and entertainment comes from. While I don't blame the race myself (nor dislike football) as he did, I do believe that God DID curse some of his children with a black skin, to give them a different test than I. And if I married anyone outside of the Priesthood family I would have that curse too. I am a racist(or "culturally sensative" as black racists would put it), but not a bigot.
"why won't the FLDS allow anyone else to join?" Join a "racist, child abusing, cult"? If you can speak for God, than why do you want to join the FLDS? (Besides, that is not necessarily true, but most are just attempts to "infiltrate")
"how has the FLDS community responded to Warren Jeffs' admission from prison that he is not in the priesthood and is not the true prophet?"
That is a question I doubt I could do justice to. If I answered how we felt, I doubt you would accept it, and if I tried to make you understand, I doubt you could.
But the answer is he was tested, possibly drugged out, and likely had a nervous breakdown. That was not the Warren Jeffs I knew. In other words, we ignore it. And pray for his welfare and release.
Warren doesn't think blacks are evil, they will just be the last to be saved. The FLDS will convert others during the millenium. Warren's admissions were just a test.
“What the afterlife (HEAVEN) is”: The FLDS belief is that heaven is where everyone goes after the resurrection, all except sons of perdition. This is the same as the LDS. (Read D&C 76)
“What happens when you die?” When you die you are separated from your body again. We existed as spiritual beings before we were born, and when we die we still exist. We all go to the world of spirits and dwell with those we are like until the resurrection when our bodies are given to us again and we go to the Kingdom we are worthy of.
“Is the whole concept behind polygamy and many children have everything to do with the afterlife?” "Polygamy" yes, in order to qualify for the highest heaven and have children in heaven, you must be qualified to live this law. (D&C 133) "Many children", not especially, our Fathers spirit children in heaven need bodies and the FLDS believe His children will be better off being born in the FLDS than out.
“Is everyone all together?” We believe that Earth will become the Celestial Kingdom, the highest heaven, after the resurrection. All who are worthy of that kingdom will live here in family units, with angels as servants. Wives and sons are sealed to fathers through temple ordinances, a perfect chain from Adam to the last man will be sealed in one grand family. The church in heaven is the school where those who are like God will learn how to become gods and goddesses (Quantum physics, nuclear biology, and creationist geology to start)
“Can you communicate with those that have passed on?” Yes, but we do not pray to them as the clairvoyants do, that is evil. (See Saul and Samuel in the Bible). They communicate with us when they want to send us a message, and comfort us in trial.
“Can everyone (men and woman) hear the voice of God?” Yes, the voice of God is all around us, telling us to be at peace and obey; ALL “Light” (physical, mental, spiritual) is revelation from God. Of course the voice of the adversary is there too, telling us to fight, rebel, and "it’s no big deal to sin". “For nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the spirit of God” -Joseph Smith TPJS pg205
“Are all wives considered equals here on earth and/or heaven?” Absolutely Yes (If anything ladies are MORE important) See “Feminine Feminists” on my blog
“Who considers the wives worthy of heaven?” God and they themselves do, we will be our own judges and our own accusers. It’s not like we will be able to hide anything, or say we didn’t know right from wrong.
“What happens if a woman dies before her husband?” She goes to the world of spirits and dwells with friends and family there, waiting for her good husband or the Millennial Reign where all the baptisms and sealing’s will be completed.
You are very defensive of some people's comments, and I do understand how you would feel they are insulting. But please, try to understand what all this looks like to us "outsiders." Speaking for myself, I am absolutely baffled at how people could live under the "guidance" of such a mean-spirited, self-serving person. Again, that's MY opinion and not meant to be an insult to you. "We" have a hard time wrapping our minds around some of the things that have happened BY CHOICE or REVELATION in your society.
As far as the jailhouse confession that he wasn't the prophet: thank you for not dancing around that question.
I understand how the FLDS would want to believe that he was "tested" or "drugged" or "mentally ill." But, in my opinion, IF he's taking families away from men, marrying his stepmothers, calling for a rather large amount of tithes, guiding young girls to "choose" to be or remain married, not allowing mothers to talk to their own children in another group, and on and on, then why didn't any of the FLDS think he was "tested" or "mentally ill" then? From my perspective, only a mentally ill (or evil) person would claim to have a revelation from God and do these "hideous" things to people.
Again, I hope you don't think I am insulting you ... I am just having a really hard time understanding when it appears so many people's lives have already been devastated by Warren. Now we can add 400+ children to that group. I believe without a doubt that he caused this.
Thank you, again, for answering our questions. Maybe your explanations and opinions will help.
pligchild, Thank you so much for your honest answers. Its not too much different than what I believe in except the many wives part, but hey that's your belief. I'm ok with that. I've learned a lot from you. I think if everyone looked deeper into all of our religions we can see simlair core beliefs. There are good and bad in all religions, just as there is good and bad all around us. As long as we look inside and feel the love, instead of giving into fear and control, we can all live in peace.
Pligchild, I'm the one with all the heaven questions. Thanks for your time and information. I know I have a lot of questions, but I can't help it. I'm so over the right and wrong back and forth,the abuse and polygamy questions. Everyone has there opinions and I think we all heard them. As for me, I want to know a little more about other issues.
Do LDS/FLDS believe the "holy spirit is male or female or non-gender?
Do you believe in a father and mother God?
Do you believe, I hate the term, "outsiders" can hear the voice of God and enter heaven? maybe not the highest level, but heaven none the less?
Do members get a "revalation" or hear a voice that validates who the prophet is? Or is it just faith?
Lastly, what and how many levels of heaven do you believe there are? Is there anything you can refer me to that can go deeper into the beliefs on the other side (heaven)?
izzy- "mean-spirited, self-serving person" Obviously you have never met him. "IF-" A lot of what you think is not true, and most is not Warren Jeff’s creation, but it goes back to my original answer: "I doubt you would accept it, and if I tried to make you understand, I doubt you could." Because you don't want to.
"I hope you don't think I am insulting you" OK.... trying to un-brainwash me then by insulting my friends?
"he caused this" Yes, a man who has been in prison for almost two years was impersonating a prank phone caller from Colorado, and then impersonated an bitter ex member pretending to be an abused forced child bride, and giving slanderous interviews and writing libelous books about it. He caused global warming, 9/11, and world hunger too I suppose. Give me a break.
11:33- I AM half female!
8:34- The Holy Spirit is power, all life and energy comes from it; it is the power of heaven and is multi-gender. Omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.
"Do you believe in a father and mother God?" Yes, Google "O My Father" a hymn written by Eliza R Snow
"Do you believe "outsiders" can hear the voice of God?" Absolutely, ALL LIGHT (Physical, mental, and spiritual) is from God.
"and enter heaven? maybe not the highest level, but heaven none the less?" Even the highest level, if you live close to God and do what He wants you to do. See "All outsiders are evil?" on my blog. And D&C 76.
"Do members get a "revelation" or hear a voice that validates who the prophet is? Or is it just faith?" Absolutely, Faith IS revelation. That is why there is apostasy after every leaders death, we all must start again with God.
"what and how many levels of heaven do you believe there are?" Three main ones, each subdivided.
"Is there anything you can refer me to that can go deeper into the beliefs on the other side (heaven)?" Read Doctrine and Covenants 76, and 131, and Lectures on Faith #5. I have a link to these scriptures from my blog. Also see FLDStruth.org
You have me all wrong. See I DO want to understand. I desperately want to understand why splitting families up and marrying young girls is not self-serving and/or meanspirited. I would love to understand ... but I've read your blog and I've read how much you are in love with Warren Jeffs so I doubt that you, either, will be unbiased enough to explain it in a way that makes perfectly good sense.
I tried to "un-brainwash" you? I insulted your friends? I had no intention of doing this at all. In fact, I appreciated your answers and was asking honest questions. If your "friend" is Warren Jeffs, then yes, I probably did insult him but I think he's insulted enough people in his "tenure" that he's got it coming.
Yep, it's my opinion he caused THIS (no, not all the other things you list to unsuccessfully try to make your point). No, he didn't make the call, but he allowed how many?? how many pligchild?? situations of young girls marrying and having babies, like the "caller." His actions, and not just the underage marriage thing, led up to the authorities getting involved. That's my opinion. Obviously yours is different. Fine.
anon 10:17. wouldn't lying about the Holy Ghost constitute sinning against the Holy Ghost? your own religion urges caution in this matter, lest you become a "Son of perdition".
Thanks again pligchild. I too believe in a mother and father God, I understand about your religion being misunderstood, mine is too. But like you, I don't care. I follow my heart and the law. Therefore, I ask these questions to understand your religion. I will look at those readings you suggested to understand further.
Now I have a few more questions.
I understand that the Bible is one of many of your religious Texts. Is that correct? If so, do you interpret the bible literally word for word or is it more stories to help you understand your faith?
I Ask the same of the Book of Mormon? (I have not read the Book of Morman, so I'm not sure how it reads. I plan on looking at it.)
What is your definition of a Prophet? Could a woman be a prophet? If not why?
Do you believe Jesus was God himself or a messenger of God? I ask the same question in regards to all FLDS prophets from Joseph Smith to Warren Jeffs?
What are your views on Moses and Muhammed? I would assume Moses is mentioned but is Muhamed mentioned in the Morman faith?
Has the FLDS ever in its history, have a false prophet? What would prove someone to be a false prophet?
Do you believe the Mother God appeared here on earth or has sent a messenger, prophet?
Do you believe in the immaculate conception?
I vaguely remember reading this somewhere. I want to know if it is true that Joseph Smith recieved his first visions by looking in a crystal or stone in a hat of some sort. Can you help me out with this?
> Has the FLDS ever in its history, have a false prophet? What would prove someone to be a false prophet?
Several leaders who were the senior priesthood council leader (the one man) have been blotted out of FLDS history because they were considered fallen prophets.
If you'll read the "Articles of Faith", you'll get the answers to a lot of your questions: http://www.fldstruth.org/sysmenu.php?MParent=BELIEFS&MIndex=90
"We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."
As you should know, the Bible has a number of errors in it from mistranslation, alterations, etc. Joseph Smith was working on translating it, but didn't get it as finished as he would've liked before his death. This has been printed as the "Inspired Version", but the LDS Church doesn't have the copyright to it, so it's very hard to find a copy of it. It's printed by the Reorganized Church.
The definition of a prophet is one who has the spirit of prophecy upon him or her. However, there is only one "keyholder" at a time. The keyholder, or Prophet (with a capital P), is the only one who can receive instructions/revelations for the people in general. Others can only get inspiration, or revelation, if you'd like to call it that, for their own personal jurisdiction. A woman could never be the keyholder, any more than a man can bear a child. However, a woman can and should be inspired and have revelation to herself in working with her children.
Jesus was and is God. There's a LOT on this subject, and I'm not sure how much is covered by the FLDSTruth.org website. But there is the Father (Father Michael), Son(Jesus Christ), and Holy Ghost(Joseph Smith).
As far as the other Prophets go, they are all servants of God, who were chosen before the world was, to come and lead God's work on the earth. They are not God, but the channel through which we come to Him. I'm not sure on Mohammad, but I believe hearing at one time, that he was sent by the Lord to perform a work among the Arabs. So, it's kind of the opposite view of Islamics regarding Christ.
Our Father in Heaven has many wives. Some were with Him in the Garden of Eden, and another one, named Mary, was the Mother of Jesus. Father Michael came to Mary, and we believe He is Jesus Christ's literal earthly Father.
The stone you refer to that Joseph Smith translated from is called the "Urim and Thummim" I'm sure you can read about this from the History of the Church, or just some searching online. It was in some ways like a pair of glasses you would look through.
Some of us are registered to vote (I am). There have been times when it was suggested that a certain politician running might do us more good than another, but never any commandment to vote either way. As far as Mitt Romney goes? I don't know how he calls himself a Mormon. ;) It may very well have affected his campaign, but I'm not one who really likes to speculate about politicians.
Thanks FLDS_guy, you have thick skin to keep posting on this blog, and your answers are much better than mine.
I did fail to mention that the Holy Ghost is the Witness and Testator of the Father and the Son. And that the office of the third member of the Godhead is held by Joseph Smith, the One Mighty and Strong, who witnessed the Father and the Son when he was 14.
"Several leaders who were the senior priesthood council leader (the one man) have been blotted out of FLDS history because they were considered fallen prophets."
The lineage of keyholders has confused many, and much apostacy has taken place over this issue. The first Apostle ordained by Joseph Smith was Lyman Johnson, and the oldest was Thomas B Marsh, and neither one of them became the keyholder. The lineage of Prophets that the FLDS follow is by Ordination AND Oneness. Wilford Woodruff was not in full harmony with John Taylor, and Joseph Musser nor Charles Zitting were in full harmony with John Y Barlow. Yet the wheat and the tares grew together.
As far as a prophet falling,
"But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead." (D&C 43:4)
Pligchild said.... As you should know, the Bible has a number of errors in it from mistranslation, alterations, etc. Joseph Smith was working on translating it, but didn't get it as finished as he would've liked before his death. This has been printed as the "Inspired Version", but the LDS Church doesn't have the copyright to it, so it's very hard to find a copy of it. It's printed by the Reorganized Church.
Look at your pre 1978 Book of Mormon title page. It has an amazing confession.
"And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—
And now, IF THERE ARE FAULTS THEY ARE THE MISTAKES OF MEN;wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ" TRANSLATED BY JOSEPH SMITH, Jun. First English edition published in 1830
There are thousands of transcripts proving the Bible was translated correctly. The Bible is the true word from God. Where are the transcripts or golden plates Joseph Smith used to translate from....?
I don't think it can be said that he translated "nothing", only one of his translations (The Book of Abraham) has ever been proven to be a false translation.
It may be that other documents were forged but there's no proof one way or the other.
-Start by not answering your own questions. With insults -Realize that onthestreet does not represent the FLDS -Don't ask for the purpose of painting them as evil - Dont ask insulting questions -Don't assume ANYTHING - Realize that the FLDS believe as strongly in their religion as you do about yours, if not more. -Don't try to "convert" them against their will. - Treat them as equal's rather than "less than"
I have just started to read a revised version of "the God Makers."(Chapter 1 only) I take everything i read with a grain of salt and pray for truth. By being Pagan myself, I found it interesting that the authors say the Morman religion has a pagan connection. I've been recognizing the similarities. I was wondering what you thought about that?
Like the pagan religion, it seems the Morman religion is also critized about religious rituals, due to peoples lack of knowledge or misunderstandings. People say the Morman temple rituals are secretive? Are they really? What can you tell us abut that? I don't mean specifically what the rituals are but the fact that people think they are so secretive and judge you based on that?
Other than Polygamy and blacks holding the Priesthood, how else do you differ from the LDS?
Do other you recongnize any other fundalmentalist groups?
I have learned that lack of information produces fear. I believe we owe ourselves to learn all we can. We should all be learning from each other rather than judging or telling people they are wrong for what they believe. There is a lot of misinformation out there about a lot of things. We have all been victims of that. Thanks for educating us on your beliefs.
I've read many of the comments left by FLDS members on this board. Are all of these members part of Warren Jeff's group?
Most of the answers given here contradicts the truths spelled out in Elissa Wall's book and is exactly what I would expect to hear from members under Warren Jeff's authority.
New question. Do FLDS mothers nurse their babies or do they formula/bottle feed? (Or, is it more of an individual difference?) I didn't see anything about it in the 0-2 daily schedule.
New question. Do FLDS mothers nurse their babies or do they formula/bottle feed? (Or, is it more of an individual difference?) I didn't see anything about it in the 0-2 daily schedule.
Just like any mother in America most prefer to breastfeed but it is still a personal choice.
How much is communicated to young FLDS brides about what to expect on the wedding night? Who prepares her, if anyone? To the FLDS wives reading this... who prepared you and how much did you know about sex beforehand?
"Most of the answers given here contradicts the truths spelled out in Elissa Wall's book"
Exactly what we expect from those under Elissa Walls authority.
4:54 Non existent
5:09 The wedding night is not a night of sex in the FLDS. A marriage in the FLDS is a promise, not a free for all. Most wait for months, if not years. They wait until they rise in love and it is in purity. It is the ladies decision more than it is the mans.
There seems to be two versions of how marital relations come about and I can't reconcile them.
One version is that the prophet chooses the couples and it has litle to do with attraction or love. Loves results from working together to achieve the mutual goal of reaching the higher level in the celestial kingdom. This version removes emotion and individual will in the selection process. It seems that this side of the story comes up when there is talk of underage marriage. Few deny that ya'll marry a little younger in your group, but the party line is that it's not because the men are attracted to the young girls, it's because the prophet chose them and they trust the prophet. To me this looks like an effort to excuse any perceived sexual ills.
Then there's your version of the story, which makes a little more sense to me. You imply a love relationship and choice. That being said, it's rather difficult to believe that a married couple would wait "years" before consummating their relationship. If the other sisterwives are intimate, having children, and through that growing in their relationship with the husband, it would be difficult for the new wife to be on the outside.
In most of these situations (statistically speaking), the woman must enter into their marriage as a sister-wife, not as the first or only wife. Isn't she eager to jump in and be a part of the family? Doesn't having children with her husband insure a more viable role within the family and create identity for the wife? I thought having children was considered an honor and the highest calling for a woman. Why would a woman ever prolong receiving that blessing?
After hearing about Warren Jeffs "confession" at prison, I was wondering how that impacts his regard as a prophet with the FLDS ,specifically since he denided being a prophet.
'It looks like slick Willie released a statement saying that the FLDS are going to comply with the laws of the land concerning the marriage age.'
That is difficult, since they cannot be married legally anyway, so what age does he mean? I am sure CPS and everyone else would have liked to heard the age 18 mentioned. It was very vague.
What authority is Willie using to speak for the FLDS?
Does he speak for those in Utah, Arizona, Canada, Colorado, etc.?
"Isn't she eager to jump in and be a part of the family?"
Every person in the FLDS is as different as you are from your neighbor. I am sure that "some" would want to jump in quick, and some wouldn't. In my opinion many girls old and young inside the FLDS and out do not realize the power they have. (My wife sure did) And the power that good men inside the FLDS and out give them. The time of intimacy is the ladies domain. Had I married an underage girl (I didn't really know until after the ceremony) I would not have gone to sleep in her bed until she was of legal age. ["Ya, right", says the little pitchfork guy on my shoulder, "you can't say that without experiencing it"] I don't think fathers should "let" their daughters get married under 16.
"Doesn't having children with her husband insure a more viable role within the family and create identity for the wife?"
I cannot answer from a womans prospective about identity, but from mine the answer is no. She is a viable family member when she gets married. If there are already wives or children she is their family member too. There are many roles outside of pregnancy. Her options become greater than before, not less.
This may sound masculist (my new word for sexist opposite of feminist) but for a man who does not choose his wife, to get a wife is the same as a mother who gets a brand new child. That is how I felt when I married my wife. Like a sweet treasure that would last eternally if treated well.
"I thought having children was considered an honor and the highest calling for a woman. Why would a woman ever prolong receiving that blessing?"
Becoming a goddess in heaven is the highest calling for a woman, but there are a lot of steps to get there. In the FLDS faith, the marriage ceremony is the beginning of a courtship. One that can last forever.
To give details [that I might regret]: My brother and I got married within two weeks of each other. He knew who his wife was and she was 22. I did not know my wife and she was 18. (My father said "You robbed the cradle!" as she looked 14) My brother and his wife had their second child a month after we had our first. nuff said
I don't know if you read Carolyn Jessops work of fiction "based on a true story" but in it she told of a certain Tammy, and her marriage with the prophet, never consummated after ten years.(like I would know, but Carolyn did, right?) As I wrote in another comment, In Elissa Walls book she mentioned going to see Warren Jeffs two years after the marriage ceremony. He suggested that they should try to have a child, he had no idea that they had already been trying.
Thanks for the feedback and information. I find myself assuming a uniformity among the families because of the fact that there is (ideally) uniformity in following the prophet.
Also many of us look at the FLDS group on tv and assume that because the women and children are wearing dresses made out of the same pattern and type of fabric, the men are all scarcely seen, the log cabins all look the same from the outside, etc., that behaviors among the families are just as similar.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to address some of my questions.
Marriage can be difficult no matter who you are, amen?
Forgive the redundancy if you've already answered this one and ignore it if it's too personal, but are you still married and part of the group?
"Great! That means you disregard what Flora, Carolyn and Elissa say too. Good for you."
Advice for the FLDS. Not everything that people who leave your communities are liars. BUT, out of the mouths of two or three....Be realistic, it sure seems you FLDS say that you have all the truth about everyone and everything. Just because your web site says the truth will prevail does not mean you are the only people with truth. Just because others leave does not automatically make them liars.
4:06 here...exactly! That's why I disregard Flora when she says they are ALL baby killers, ALL break in their daughters sexually, etc. I didn't mean that just to apply to pligchild.
117 comments:
In the case of Elissa Wall and Alan Steed. Are they biological first cousins, or just cousins though marriage? And if he did have sex with her when she was underage and not legally married should he not just plead guilty? I am sure a judge would be aware of the circumstances and be more understanding to a guilty plea.
Does Merril Jessop stay in contact with Warren Jeffs during his time in prison? What is the general feeling about Warren's prison sentence? It seems like those in the FLDS feel they are above the reproach of the law.
I too would like to know why so many young boys "choose" to leave and so many young girls "choose" to stay.
I too would like to know why so many young boys "choose" to leave and so many young girls "choose" to stay.
From what I have personally seen during my limited association with some of these people.
Besides the mathimatical numbers, the boys are expected to move into a leadership role. They are also required to give about two years of themselves to the community before they are accepted into that role. This period as "missionaries" can be very demanding and trying for many. The girls at that age are expected to be more subservient, and are welcomed with open arms into the family (usually) of the prophet's choosing.
Therefore the boys have the two year window to mature and make a choice for themselves. During this same time in their lives the girls may already have a child or two and can end up feeling trapped in a relationship finding it very difficult to leave.
A males choice to leave is rarely challenged, but when a girl is unhappy, her desire for something else can even lead a choice of "suitors". Every attempt is made to place a girl before she is "allowed" to leave.
As to my comments @ 10:31 this was at a time before the Warren Jeffs takeover.
What would or will it take for the FLDS communities to open up more to the rest of us 'outsiders'?
are you quite sure that FLDS boys do missionary work at ANY age? I mean, they don't welcome outsiders. And so they do missionary work at 13, 14, and the girls are getting married off at that age, spiritually, that is.
I have never heard of FLDS doing missionary work. They are a closed society.
What would or will it take for the FLDS communities to open up more to the rest of us 'outsiders'?
Start by treating them as you treat any of your neighbors; as individuals.
are you quite sure that FLDS boys do missionary work at ANY age? I mean, they don't welcome outsiders. And so they do missionary work at 13, 14, and the girls are getting married off at that age, spiritually, that is.
I have never heard of FLDS doing missionary work. They are a closed society.
5/20/2008 11:30 AM
At about 17 or 18 they start this period as "missionaries" and is spent mostly as unpaid workers within the communities, or any earnings given to the community.
It is after this time you will find most of the young men will given a wife at about 19 or 20 and she is generally about two years younger than he.
my neighbors are very open and frindly and individuals. My neighbors come to my son's games, exchange hello's in the yard, help each other out. My neighbors invite me into their homes. My neighbors are diverse. Some are Christian, some are not. Some are Anglo, some are not. Some are gay, some are not. Some are old, some are young.
Seems like my neighbors are very much individuals. They don't wear their hair the same way, believe the same way, dress the same way, or live the same way.
Steven if you wish to become a polygamist you don't need to convert to the FLDS. (Your wife's "cousin" may need a place to live.)
A friend of mine let her husband's ex move back into the house so her children could be close to their father, (what happend behind the bedroom door was none of my business).
Later they moved to a small compound with a couple of trailers, in order for the x to keep recieving welfare payments she needed her own residence.
Don't forget about community property, both 'wives' will be intitled to their share if either chooses to leave, lol or throw you out.
In the case of Elissa Wall and Alan Steed. Are they biological first cousins? YES
or just cousins though marriage?
probally YES too.
And if he did have sex with her when she was underage and not legally married should he not just plead guilty?
Allen was under the influence that he had the right to have sex with Elissa, she was his wife.
What would or will it take for the FLDS communities to open up more to the rest of us 'outsiders'?
I think the christian thing to do is for us outsiders to start by treating polygamy as practiced by the FLDS at least as non-judgmentally as we treat polygamy practiced by hedonists on The Girls Next Door...
....and maybe we shouldn't take their kids, either.
Stephen
Don't you people realize that you chased off the FLDS that were posting on that other thread?
"What would or will it take for the FLDS communities to open up more to the rest of us 'outsiders'?"
-Start by not answering your own questions. With insults
-Realize that onthestreet does not represent the FLDS
-Don't ask for the purpose of painting them as evil (ala flds101.blogspot.com)
- Dont ask insulting questions like "Why is your prophet such a pervert?" or "Why don't you care about your children?"
-Don't assume ANYTHING
- Allow them to be racist (ie Jerimiah Wright)
- Accept that polygamy is not abusive in nature any more than guns are. (ie "marriage kills people")
- Realize that the FLDS believe as strongly in their religion as you do about yours, if not more.
-Realize they are willing to break the law if the law is written to stop their religious beliefs.
-Don't try to "convert" them against their will.
- Treat them as equal's rather than "less than"
Follow the rules above and they wouldn't hesitate to "open up"
I wouldn't hesitate to answer your questions if you didn't insult my answers, or answer your own questions for me with insults.
I will answer the first posters question on here, and we'll see how it goes. (Some FLDS ARE reading this)
-Elissa's mother Sharon and Allen's father Lawrence are half brother and sister. They have the same grandfather, Newell, but different grandmothers.
-No, she was not underage for consentual sex.
-He has been charged with RAPE, not underage marriage. (Don't feel bad you are only as confused as the jury was about which law was broken)
-A guilty plea to Rape has a minimum sentence of five years. Besides Elissa doesn't think Allen is guilty, she said he was a "victim" too. (Several jurors agreed)
CTR
I am familiar with the CPS as my sister had her children removed from the home related to drug abuse and they (CPS) did remove ALL children from the home until the mother worked her treatment plan; 2 have been returned and one remains in foster care. Since FLDS considers their LARGE compound "A large family unit" then CPS was right in removing all children until it was determined to be a safe environment. If one grows up in that environment thinking that treatment was normal then they just accept that that is the way things are suppose to be, does not in any way make it right and in fact illegal. I also work in a prison and see ALOT of parents getting prison time for a wide range of abuse. Not only are the men getting time the women are getting prison time as well for "failure to protect" or failure to report abuse". These people are getting the same as the mainstream people get, it just seems more intense not because of eligion but becasue of the numbers involved. If they want to say they are one big happy family then they ae being treated as one big happy family. My questions are as follows. 1) Where are the elderly ppl both men and women? If you notice once they are too old to work or bare children they seem to disappear. 2) Where are their ppl buried? 3) All of the children seen on TV are up walking and talking, where are the wheelchairs, walkers etc, surely they are not ALL healthy? 4) Where are the childrens toys? No playground equipment, bicycles no nothing?
pligchild, thanks for your help.
There is an article http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_9322072
that says that one of the FLDS men that was excommunicated is trying to get his kids out of state custody in Texas.
What is the view about men raising their children without a mother. Would the FLDS approve of a man having custody, if it were not for the Texas problem?
Why do the FLDS women dress like they are still in the 19th century?
Why not the men?
To the FLDS reading these posts:
I don't agree with your lifestyle or your religious beliefs. Despite the differences or my feelings about the charges alleged about you my family remembers you and your children in our prayers every night. Despite the evil, hateful things being posted here and said in the news there are many of us who are storming the heavens with our prayers right along side you.
To those with some rude comment to make about this post:
God knows you and your sins. Ask for forgiveness for your hateful thoughts and words and he will give it to you. :)
CTR ....
Thank you.
You said it all ....
I am not FLDS, but I feel for your situation. I too keep you all in my thoughts daily.
Thank you for being honest, and only asking for the respect you deserve.
I will not 'assume' anything.
I think we all need to stop believing everything we see, and read via the media.
I'm thankful for this blog spot ... it goes a long way toward understanding.
TWR
Thanks Admin for not deleting my posts again
Most of the questions above my last post are not much more than phishing. The only thing to refer you all too is Where the Lost Boys go
4:02
"Since FLDS considers their LARGE compound "A large family unit"
-Don't assume ANYTHING
They don't, they never did consider it one family unit. It is the anti-FLDS who are "assisting through hatred" that have told them this. See:
Children Lived in Seperate Homes
more to come...
Sorry, Pligchild. I don't recall deleting any of your posts.
I only delete vulgar or offensive posts, except Street who is supposed to stay on his own thread. I also try to prevent copyrighted material from being posted, especially since receiving a nasty note from the Salt Lake Tribune's webmaster.
And, I don't allow cross posting. If there is something on someone else's blog I would rather you post a link than cross post it here. Although things slip through from time to time.
Other than that, I'm easy.
Weblog Admin
Anon 4:45pm
You Asked:
"Why do the FLDS women dress like they are still in the 19th century?"
We are taught that our bodies are sacred and that we are to keep them covered. (I personally don't understand how women can walk around with everything they have showing.. breasts..butt..etc.) It's degrading for the woman and disgusting to look at. (MY OPINION) of course..no offense intended.
Back to the topic...
As far as the long plain dresses are concerned..this started several years ago. Before that time we pretty much dressed in whatever we felt like wearing just as long as it covered up our bodies. (denim jumpers,skirts and blouses, homemake clothing etc..)
There was a few women who started wearing the plain dresses and then it was rumored that every lady in town was to dress this way..some went wild and threw out everything in their closets..others gave their clothing away..still others kept wearing what they had until it wore out and then changed over. I never officially heard it announced that the women were required to dress in plain dresses..but then again I was not able to attend every meeting as I had plenty of little ones to care for. I asked my Husband on several occasions that I had here such and such about our clothing..and he always replied.."Dearie that is up for you to decide..dress as you are impressed..if I do not like something I will let you know."
I have some long dresses that I enjoy wearing and I also have some skirts,blouses,etc..but they are all modest looking.
hope I answered your ?
I have read as much of Street's thread as I could make sense of... after a while... it just does not fit together for me...
I have read the comments claiming that his beliefs do not represent the mainstream FLDS beliefs... but ..... who is he and how does he and his beliefs fit into the general picture? It is hard to believe that he thought all this up on his own. It seems he must have been taught much of it at one time by someone...
Giving him his own thread is a brilliant strategy, by the way.
Thanks,
Angel
I asked these questions on the previous post, but they weren't answered. I understand that the other posts became offensive. If what I asked, over stepped any bounds, please let me know. I'm just curious. I know its a lot of questions. I appreciate any answers... I'd like to know more about what the after life (HEAVEN) is and what it means to members of FLDS vs LDS. What happens to you when you die? Is the whole concept behind polygamy and many children have everything to do with the after-life? Do you believe you are all reunited in the afterlife? If so, I'm, trying to understand how you can be with your children, when they have thier families. Or is everyone all together? Or are the men reunited with thier sons familu? Do you believe you can commuicate with those that have passed on? Can everyone (men and woman) hear the voice of God? Are all wives considered equals here on earth and/or heaven? Who considers the wives worthy of heaven, God, the prophet or thier husbands? What happens if a woman dies before her husband?
Thank you for your answers.
Bless you all.
I don't think it is "disgusting" too see a woman's body.
I don't think it is disgusting to wear a short sleeved shirt or a skirt or shorts, or even a Brazillian bikini when the time and place allows. But, I guess that is why I could never be FLDS.
I am trying to imagine playing basketball or waterskiing in one of thse outfits.
anyway, it is sad to me to hear someone say that the female body showing is disgusting. *sigh*
It is no disgusing, it is quite eautiful and if a woman is comfortable showing it off in an appropriate way, God Bless her.
Thanks for coming back 4:45!
To finish 4:02 (It seems you have swallowed everything anti-FLDS)-
1)Elderly people are well taken care of, when I was young some went to nursing homes (FLDS ran a couple of them), but now no one goes to nursing homes. There are many nurses and home-health ladies in the FLDS. They only "seem to dissappear" from ANTI-FLDS crusaders. Want to hear from an Eighty-year-old yourself? Read Uncle Sams letter
2) There are two graves at YFZ. Most of the people who have died in the last 4 years are buried in Colorado City.
3) The percentage of special needs children is not greater than in your community. (No the FLDS do not "get rid" of them, that is a HORRID and DISGUSTING accusation)
4) When I was young our "store bought" toys rarely lasted more than a few days. So most of what we played was what we enjoyed amongst ourselves. In Texas most of the homes were WAY better, see: See HERE
From 2-6 year old schedule:
"Mothers do not just
dump out toys and leave the children to play. The children are taught activities that enlarge their horizons. Children become very selfish, self-centered and irritable when they play with toys all day. An occasional time of throwing balls, working with molding clay, going for a walk, jumping on a trampoline, swinging, reading nature books, etc., are also needed for the growth of
healthy children."
(Can you imagine how AWESOME that would be?)
anon flds- I do not want to compromise ANY effort to get those children out of prison. But personally (my own views), at least until they are 9-10 children need their mother WAY more than they need their father.
4:45-
"Why not the men?"
Ever looked at how the men dressed in the 19th Century? The FLDS men wear MORE clothing than what you would see on "Little House on the Prarie" It is interesting to look at the history of clothing and styles. Men's clothing has not changed a lot, but womens clothing has dissappeared, replaced by paint.
(Admin or fttc, you may want to start a "rebuttal" thread so the anti-FLDS can have a place to vent so their heads don't explode)
I am appalled by the way the FLDS is and has been treated by the CPS, by the judicial system, by the media, and by the mainstream public alike.
I frankly wouldn't care to justify my religious beliefs, or sexual practices (dull as they may be) or dietary habits or dress codes or social mores or whatever to anyone, much less to anyone who had just 'nabbed my kids.
My response to anyone posing such questions would be something like "mind your own business", but I surely wouldn't handle it as politely as this has been handled by so many FLDS.
In that vein, I think I just have two questions for any FLDS that might be lurking about:
1. Is it your understanding that the US Constitution prohibits government from interfering with the free exerise of religion?
2. Is it your understanding that the US Constitution guarantees that people can be secure in their persons, houses and effects, and that the government is prohibited from making unreasonable searches and seizures?
Just curious....
Regards,
Stephen
I meant Thanks 9:19 for coming back.
Just read something VERY interesting in the paper just now.
A man from Utah appeared in court yesterday to get 5 of his children. Seems as he was excommunicated from the Hildale community and his wife and children were reasigned to YFZ. He is the noncustodial parent and wants his children back. The article said he has 12 other children. Did not say he was a polygamist or not.
I also read where the state of Texas is taking a very hard line with these parents. Texas is not Utah, it is not Arizona. Texas has VAST rescources and won't back down from this. It si costing 1.5 million every month to the state. The DNA testing of these people are more than the entire DNA tests last year for the whole state.
I guess FLSDS thought they could get awasy with the same things they have gotten away with in Utah and Arizona, but Texas is going to be very different. HUGE state with HUGE rescources.
Just a suggestion to those that are insatiably curious about the FLDS (as I am)....
When all this started coming out I, like many others, became fascinated and curious (I'm not one who is judging) so I started really reading up (in depth) on the history of Mormonism from the begining. I think it's really helped me understand some of the things that seem "peculiar" to a lot of us. It helps give you a more balanced understanding I think of where these people are coming from. Just my 2 cents.
I believe in modesty, and don't think one should be half dressed when going into the public. But would find it very difficult to crawl around in my garden in a long skirt.
As for prints, in a statement made by Teresa Wall Blackmore she said it was under direction of the Profit that they could no longer wear prints.
Daphne Brahman interviewed several young men that have left the FLDS, you can find her articles at the Province news site. Many of these young men do not refer to themselves as Lost Boys. (also you can google Truman Oler for his story.)
cg
So, who is this spokesman/attorney that is speaking for the FLDS in Texas? (Rod Parker?)
I posted a video that covers 3 years construction of YFZ.
http://web.sccn2.net/flds/More-Pics.htm
YFZ is still a ghost town as of yesterday. Kids are gone and the temple compromised by us. Zion may no longer be a holy place anymore.
ThePilot
The courts are finding more and more adults that were held as minors by CPS. (I think 9 so far)
How many more do the FLDS say are adults and not minors that are still being held by CPS?
*sigh*
"get away with"
-Believing plural marriage is a great priveledge and brings honor and glory in heaven.
-Allowing girls to get married when they want to.
- Minding their own business
Steven:
“Then do you profess to ignore the laws of the land? No; not unless they are unconstitutional, then I would do it all the time. Whenever the Congress of the United States, for instance, pass a law interfering with my religion, or with my religious rights, I will read a small portion of that instrument called the Constitution of the United States, now almost obsolete, which says -- "Congress shall pass no law interfering with religion or the free exercise thereof;" and I would say, gentlemen, you may go to Gibraltar with your law, and I will live my religion. When you become violators of the Constitution you have sworn before high heaven to uphold, and perjure yourselves before God, then I will maintain the right, and leave you to take the wrong just as you please.” (John Taylor 3/31/1867)
"I also read where the state of Texas is taking a very hard line with these parents. "
http://www.sltrib.com/Polygamy/ci_9332171
Gee, according to this article Texas judges are having a hard time holding your "hard line".
"Texas is going to be very different. HUGE state with HUGE rescources."
That's good because Texas is going to need a texas size bank account for all the law suits that are sure to follow. Starting with adults who provided legitimate state issued identification but were held by a government agency against their will for 6 weeks without any due process. Ooops!
angel- I have no idea who street is, but he sounds like someone who grew up in the FLDS, but now his brain is warped by immorality, and possibly drugs or alcohol. Brilliant linguist though.
6:25-
Your questions are not offensive, just the answers would take a lot of space and time to explain. I'll work on it.
7:21-
*sigh*
What is sad is your views on nudity is "normal". To the FLDS the body is a sacred gift, meant to be purified, cherished, and protected; not broadcast to the world. You don't have to agree, but this post was for FLDS views, not yours.
Has anyone heard anything about CPS showing up on the compound again today looking for more children? I can't find much on that story...
I'm so frustrated with CPS in this case, I just can't understand how they justified removing all of the children...
http://www.kutv.com/content/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=3498a1b1-fb03-4202-93ab-c03eba1e8e22
Apparently the dumb-a$$ CPS workers showed up out there without a warrant and expected to be let in. They were responding to reports there may be more children on the ranch.
Are you kidding me???
http://www.kxan.com/global/story.asp?s=8359508
This article covers this too and seems to have more information than the first.
CPS was told they couldn't go back to the ranch without a search warrant and their tanks.
CPS is reported as wanting to search the ranch but not wanting any media around when they do it.
Gee, why wouldn't CPS want the media there? Could it be that they don't want anyone to be able to contradict them?
CPS has some huge cojones!
Are men assigned wives younger than 17?
I've noticed that though this question gets asked a lot, there is always a significant amount of dancing around it without any real answers.
Yes or no?
NT - I get the feeling that no one knows for sure....
How might FLDS leadership view Arthur Barlow helping his estranged spiritual wife Esther in her efforts to get the kids back? Is he repenting from afar or is he totally excommunicated?
I have seen some answers saying that the boys are sent on missions and there was someone else answering that the FLDS is no longer accepting new recruits.
Could it be the case that the community in Texas did NOT seek new recruits or go on missions?
Can anyone name a person on the Texas ranch that was not born into the group and was a convert?
--B
Question for pligchild,
You quoted, The children are taught activities that enlarge their horizons. Children become very selfish, self-centered and irritable when they play with toys all day.
What sorts of activities would an elementary school aged child do other than play with toys and go to school? How do the mothers keep them busy?
No one, not even CPS, disputes that the children aren't very well behaved and that the mothers aren't highly organized!
historic moment,
What do you mean nobody knows for sure whether or not wives are assigned before the age of 17?
That doesn't make any sense.
With such a tight-knit group (lots of family members within etc.) it seems highly unlikely that it's not known and talked about when and how someone is assigned, especially if they are youngish.
I've heard the claim that the FLDS don't keep track of age. Is that true? It sure seems we are being set up to believe they didn't know the girls were too young.
Texas Native 9:33-- I had asked that question, in a sort of different form, but never got an answer. So I'll try and piggy back onto your query....and add a few extra. Are all births and deaths, of FLDS members, registered with the state in which they are born? If not...why? If there are birth certificates on file in Texas, or Utah or Arizona,etc, then it should be fairly easy to disprove [or prove] that there are no underage marriages. AND prove parentage.
AND...what happens when it's time for the US Census? Who decides who is counted and who isn't. If there are no records, how do people prove they exist?
Which brings me to taxes....If each child is required by law [and I know if I am wrong someone will correct me]to have a social security number to be claimed as a dependant...how do taxes get done? Head of household with 45 dependants should cause any
IRS computer to go "HUH?".
Although I am now retired, I worked as an educator and as a medical professional. Both occupations made me a mandated reporter to CPS. That means that I was required by law to report suspected child abuse or neglect and that failure to do so made me subject to prosecution. I also worked at times with children who had been abused and neglected and who were in the custody of the state, in foster care, or group home situations. Most of the children I worked with had parental rights terminated, as they had been victims of severe abuse and/or neglect. I also have worked with shelters for battered women and children and worked through those agencies at re-uniting families under the supervision of CPS. I have gained some small amount of wisdom and knowledge about the system during the 30 or so years of working with it.
I would like to share some of that information with you, as it might help some to better understand what is currently happening. I am not defending it as morally or ethically correct.... but it is the system that currently exists.
1. The legal system that surrounds CPS is not the same system that surrounds criminal or civil law. It is a system all its own. It has been tried before the US Supreme Court on Constitutional grounds and been upheld by that court. Basically, CPS operates outside the normal confines of the law in order to protect children. They can take any child from any place at any time without a search warrant. They then go before a juvenile judge within a set number of days for a hearing and at that time the judge will make a determination as to whether or not the child should be returned to his or her home immediately or if there seems to be cause to continue the investigation. Temporary custody is then awarded to CPS and another hearing date is set. Those hearings are taking place now. CPS will present all info they have and a service plan. That is a plan that outlines what CPS wants the family to do in order to have their child returned to them. Future hearing dates will be set and the judge will evaluate the family's progress in completing their plan.
The hearing phase can continue for up to a year. If the family is co-operating and attempting to complete their plan no actual charges will be filed, usually. If there is significant criminal behavior involved, charges will be filed in criminal court. Criminal trials are different from these hearings. The only way that these hearings will progress to a trial is if the state decides that it is in the best interest of the child to have parental rights terminated and to be placed for adoption. As long as the hearings are happening, the state is trying to re-unite the family.
2. During this phase the state will always try to err on the side of the child.... not the parents or the rights of the parents. That means that "innocent until proven guilty" does not apply.... because the child's safety must be assured during the investigation and proof of guilt phase of that statement. The right of the child to not be abused or neglected is seen as superior to any rights of the parent...
3. The service plan usually includes unlimited access to the home of the parent by CPS for unannounced visits and inspections. By turning CPS away at the gates of the ranch, the parents are violating their service plans and that may not serve them well in future hearings.
People keep talking about the Constitution and about the rights guaranteed by it... When it comes to CPS... the rights of the child supersede the rights of the parents... That is how the Supreme Court has interpreted the actions of CPS in the past. This is not the first time that CPS has removed children from families. The deck is stacked in their favor. The best and fastest way for the parents to get their children back is to co-operate with CPS and work their service plan to the letter.
Just as FLDS is made up primarily of well intentioned good hearted people... so is CPS. The majority of the people who work for CPS are genuinely heart broken by the horrendous abuse and neglect of children that they deal with everyday.
Belief in God and commitment to a religious lifestyle is not particularly reassuring to those who deal with abused children. Many extreme religious sects practice forms of child abuse and neglect as part of their "religions". Many mentally disturbed abusers use religiosity as a defense. "God told me to plant my seed in my 12 year old daughter" was the defense of the father of the first abused child I ever dealt with. And the mothers belief that because God revealed it to her husband it must have been the right thing to do was no easier for me to understand.
Perhaps this does not happen in FLDS... but it does happen. It happens often... more often than you would think. People who work everyday with abused children see a lot of it. My heart goes out to the parents and children of FLDS... but also to the workers with CPS who have seen this on a smaller scale many times.... imagine the horror if it were true of an organization the size of FLDS.
I hope that this information will be of some use or interest to some of you.
Godspeed
Angel
When we say that we have freedom of religion, what is the definition of religion? When you worship and follow a human, does that constitute religion? Is that what our country was founded on? That was considered a dictatorship and I don't see the FLDS as a religion but rather a dictatorship. You either follow what the prophet says or you are out.
When abuse takes place and everyone says that it is okay because the prophet said so, who are you worshipping?
When Jesus dealt with the Samaratin woman who was caught in adultery, did He say that it was okay and we should all do it? He forgave her and told her to sin no more. If they are basing their "religion" on Jesus, they need to do a better job of listening to what He taught.
Angel,
State Courts and the Supreme Court have not rubber stamped every action of CPS.
Stumbo vs. North Carolina come to mind and recently there was a ruling in Wisconsin concerning a child's right to be free from unreasonable searches.
There are many more examples.
That you had an experience with this organization that has led you to believe that they are omnipotent is chilling.
Angel, that was a great post! Thank you for the information and perspective.
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9343001
Wow! The youngest undisputed "teen mother" CPS has in their custody has no children and has passed a pregnancy test. There goes their 14-17 years old range. Another "14 year old" they had turned out to be TWENTY SEVEN. There are 18 total who have proven they are either not pregnant or mothers or in some cases not even teenagers. Woooops!
The hair-raising thing about this story is that when the 14 year old girls attorney asked the judge to change the girls classification the judge told him that was irrelevant to the case before him. WHAT??? Whether the girl who is reported to be the victim of sexual abuse is pregnant or not is irrelevant to the case in front of you? Her attorney asked that CPS be compelled to change her classification and amend their records. The judge told the attorney that would have to be taken up with CPS.
Okay, the fact that the atty had to ask that CPS be 'compelled' to change their record makes me think he already asked CPS and it didn't happen. What is going on with this judge that he won't acknowledge the fact that the girl is not pregnant?
I'd like to hear an age range from CPS now that so many have been taken off their list.
I certainly do not believe that CPS is omnipotent and I do not believe I said that anywhere.
They are, however, part of an extremely powerful system backed by a very large body of law. It is certainly possible to present a legal challenge to that system and to fight it all the way to the Supreme Court. And there is a very small chance of effecting change in the system and of having their powers curtailed and their decisions reversed.... not much of a chance but a chance. The Don Quiote in my nature finds tilting at that windmill appealing. The parent in me thinks the children might be grown before that battle could be fought and won.
The reality of CPS is what it is. They are powerful. They are backed by law. They have custody of the children.
One must pick carefully which battle to fight first. If these parents asked my advice... which they have not... I would advise them to work with their case workers to develop a service plan that they could accomplish so that they could regain custody of their children as quickly as possible.
I feel that encouraging them to take any other course of action is irresponsible. However, I don't walk in their shoes or in yours and the choice is not mine to make. I have shared with you what small wisdom and knowledge I have. Perhaps it will be of use to someone.
Godspeed
Angel
Do men marry older women? or is it only when they are reassigned?
How are woman with fertility problems viewed in FLDS?
as for the prarie dresses and FLDS covering up.. I think the body is sacred as well. They don't have a monopoly on that. Doesn't mean I dont' think teh female body breasts and legs and arms are "disgusting." NOt talking nudity here, how about a knee legnth business skirt, capri pants, etc.. not disgusting. I don't think a high school or college athlete playing tennis or volleyball or swimming or basketball is disgusing. Too bad the flds girls don't get a chance to comepete like that. Guess they are competing in other ways.
I think it is a travesty to inflict the notion that the female body MUST be always covered up... what a waste of time.
That wearing shorts is a sin, or even a short sleeved shirt. Isolation Isolation Isolation
And how silly that wearing your hair "hanging down" makes you a whore or look like a whore. How ridiculous. How in the world could these people fall for all of these ridiculous rules.
The FLDS go by the age of consent in each State. Elissa Wall is an example of a girl assigned at 14. "-No, she was not underage for consentual sex."(pligchild stated)
You must remember when the YFZ started the age in Texas was also 14. Most of the woman are from Arizona or Colorado.
Most marriages are celestial not legal so they would not be recorded by the State.
The Midwife must record all births, these records would have been among the records taken from the ranch. If the age of any girl at the time of birth is lower the 14 years 9 months the father can be charged with underage sex.
Question: or more of a request, can one of the FLDS ladies explain Chastity.
I have been trying to learn as much as possilbe about the FLDS way of life. I would like to know if a woman decides to leave are they allowed to take their children with them? If a woman told her sisterwives and husband she is leaving would they try to stop her and her chidlren from leaving and not allow her to leave or allow her but not the children to leave?
AUSTIN, Texas (KXAN) -- The Third Court of Appeals has ruled that Child Protective Services did not have the right to remove children from the Yearning for Zion ranch last month.
WOW!!!
TRLA will be holding a press conference in front of the courthouse in San Angelo Thursday at 1:30 p.m.
Where can we watch the news conf?
WOW!
I am soooo doing the Snoopy dance in my office right now! ROFLOL! It's about time somebody stopped this madness.
I guess that I did not explain myself enough..so I will try again.
When I said that women showing off their breasts & butt..and it looking disgusting..what I ment was..
Women that dressed in clothing that deliberately shows what they own. "dress like flypaper..attract flies"
I have been very embaresed for some women that feel like they have to dress skimpy to get noticed.
ON THE OTHER HAND..I HAVE SEEN MANY BEAUTIFUL WOMEN FROM THE "OUTSIDE WORLD" WHO DO DRESS MODEST. I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST WOMEN WEARING SHIRTS,PANTS,SHORT SLEEVES ETC..BUT EVEN THOSE CLOTHING THAT I AM AWARE OF ARE MODEST LOOKING IF YOU ARE LOOKING FOR THAT.
Dress like a tramp..be treated like one.
Dress like a Lady...be treated like one.
In the case of Elissa Wall and Alan Steed..."Incest is best
Put your cousin to the test."
1:55
Why aren't you in school at this hour? Where is your mother? I'm assuming you're a child because only someone immature would come up with something as ridiculous and unimaginative as that. Maybe you're just mentally stunted in childhood.
I wouldn't be doing no "Snoopy Dance" quite yet.
they can't just give the kids back
the same way they took them.
not unless CPS and the Judges just throw up their hands
and walk away.
they're still in the care of the CPS
you have to come get them.
easier said than done
regardless what the circumstances
the CPS has ways and rules to everything thing they do
including follow up access to any kids under previous care
you know
the same access that was refused to them
just yesterday?
way to go
willie
keep sweet texas
stg
I guess we'll see in the next ten days stg. The Texas AG doesn't sound so hopeful they're going to keep the kids in custody.
http://www.abc4.com/news/local/story.aspx?content_id=d9602820-e2d5-4b14-ba6f-1a51a3dea05b
Now that the mothers should be getting their children returned to them, how many of them plan to return to YFZ?
After all; some had told the court they would like to be elsewhere with the children.
JJ,
I have another question. I realize that there are many different groups of polygamists. What priesthood authority do each of them claim?
"regardless what the circumstances
the CPS has ways and rules to everything thing they do including follow up access to any kids under previous care
you know the same access that was refused to them just yesterday?"
According to the judges who handed CPS their asses today they had no basis to take the kids in the first place so I'm pretty sure there's not going to be any "follow up" on their ill-gotten charges.
Also, in case you missed it CPS also got their asses handed to them at the gates to the ranch yesterday too.
(Snoopy dances here too)
Oh and stg ... keep sweet.
Waay too many questions to answer.
I will address the one directed to me from 8:47 - Go to captivefldschildren.org and read the whole thing.
Another question that I saw twice, and will address- From Native Texan
"Are men assigned wives younger than 17?"
The reason the question is danced around is because it is a rather insulting question. Not the age part as much as the "assigned" part.
The answer to a question like: "Do girls get married under 17?" The answer is: "Sometimes" If the question is "Are girls forced to marry under age 100?" The answer is "No".
Let’s see, what other question.....
Ah, Steven: "What priesthood authority do each of them claim?"
Go to sltrib.com's Polygamy files and there is a PDF called "CHARTING POLYGAMY LEADERSHIP" (another skewed version at mormonfundamentalism.com)
8:22 asked-
"Do men marry older women? or is it only when they are reassigned?
How are woman with fertility problems viewed in FLDS?"
The first answer is yes but rare. I know a good man who has several wives and not one is younger than him and a few who have only one wife and she is older. The second question I answered in the other "questions" post.
And last but not least, 4:53-
"When you worship and follow a human, does that constitute religion?"
Do you want to know? Are you following the rules?:
-Start by not answering your own questions, With insults
-Don't ask for the purpose of painting them as evil
The FLDS follow Warren Jeffs like Israel followed Samuel.
"When abuse takes place and everyone says that it is okay because the prophet said so, who are you worshipping?"
No one I know would say it was "OK" to abuse anyone. All abuse, whether in the FLDS or out should be prosecuted FULLY! At the same time, I do not consider marriage in and of itself to be abuse. See THIS
Pligchild,
Thank you for answering my question about marriage. I didn't mean to phrase it in an insulting way, but when the women and men aren't necessarily chosing one another (rather, the leader choses them), the word "assign" seems to fit.
I realize it's a rather academic word for an emotional topic, but to me it doesn't imply force but rather a lack of involvement in the selection.
Thanks for addressing it.
First, the FLDS are just, if not more, judging than any other "outsider" on this thread. They are the ones teaching that outsiders are evil, saying the moms are lazy and just dump toys for their kids, etc. How would they know this? When were they in the evil outsiders homes to see this? It's what they've been told us evil outsiders do. I have 3 young children. They DO NOT sit around the TV all day, they DO NOT play with a pile of toys all day. They do help with yard work, the garden, animals and housework. Make art work, swing, slide, explore, etc. My children spend their time being children. I let them live the life of a child. Get off your high horse people, you aren't perfect and neither are your kids.
I've heard of a lot of people claiming to be prophets or gods. They live in the mental institution.
Pligchild,
How can you justify Warren Jeffs' teachings about black people being evil? Some of his ideas really do not seem God-honoring.
Also, why won't the FLDS allow anyone else to join? God clearly commanded His people to go into the world and make disciples of all nations.
Last question: how has the FLDS community responded to Warren Jeffs' admission from prison that he is not in the priesthood and is not the true prophet?
Thank you so much for your willingness to talk about these topics with us! I'm just curious to understand.
-N.
native texan- I completely understand that you would feel that way. "Assigned" does fit academically, but it is often used to imply that those who engage in what we call "inspired" marriage are getting married against their will. When you are of marriageable age and are praying every night for Heavenly Father to "inspire the Prophet in my behalf" and he chooses, it is a choice we made to us.
8:01-
"They are the ones teaching that outsiders are evil, saying the moms are lazy and just dump toys for their kids, etc."
See: "All outsiders are evil?"
Although I am sure there are a few in the FLDS who think "all" outsiders are evil (its rather hard to argue with them now), but most know good people everywhere. I am glad that you agree with the FLDS mothers who said: "Children become very selfish, self-centered and irritable when they play with toys all day" And I hope you don't get your children stolen for your religion.
-N.-
I do not have enough time in the day that the anti-FLDS do. If I did I would put the ENTIRE audio that they have clips of on the web. Most of what is quoted by him are quotes from Brigham Young and John Taylor. I never heard Warren Jeffs say that "black people are evil" as you say, but I know he taught that the "race" is where the modern immoral music, culture, and entertainment comes from. While I don't blame the race myself (nor dislike football) as he did, I do believe that God DID curse some of his children with a black skin, to give them a different test than I. And if I married anyone outside of the Priesthood family I would have that curse too. I am a racist(or "culturally sensative" as black racists would put it), but not a bigot.
"why won't the FLDS allow anyone else to join?"
Join a "racist, child abusing, cult"? If you can speak for God, than why do you want to join the FLDS? (Besides, that is not necessarily true, but most are just attempts to "infiltrate")
"how has the FLDS community responded to Warren Jeffs' admission from prison that he is not in the priesthood and is not the true prophet?"
That is a question I doubt I could do justice to. If I answered how we felt, I doubt you would accept it, and if I tried to make you understand, I doubt you could.
But the answer is he was tested, possibly drugged out, and likely had a nervous breakdown. That was not the Warren Jeffs I knew. In other words, we ignore it. And pray for his welfare and release.
Warren doesn't think blacks are evil, they will just be the last to be saved.
The FLDS will convert others during the millenium.
Warren's admissions were just a test.
For 6:25-
(finally)
“What the afterlife (HEAVEN) is”:
The FLDS belief is that heaven is where everyone goes after the resurrection, all except sons of perdition. This is the same as the LDS. (Read D&C 76)
“What happens when you die?”
When you die you are separated from your body again. We existed as spiritual beings before we were born, and when we die we still exist. We all go to the world of spirits and dwell with those we are like until the resurrection when our bodies are given to us again and we go to the Kingdom we are worthy of.
“Is the whole concept behind polygamy and many children have everything to do with the afterlife?”
"Polygamy" yes, in order to qualify for the highest heaven and have children in heaven, you must be qualified to live this law. (D&C 133)
"Many children", not especially, our Fathers spirit children in heaven need bodies and the FLDS believe His children will be better off being born in the FLDS than out.
“Is everyone all together?”
We believe that Earth will become the Celestial Kingdom, the highest heaven, after the resurrection. All who are worthy of that kingdom will live here in family units, with angels as servants. Wives and sons are sealed to fathers through temple ordinances, a perfect chain from Adam to the last man will be sealed in one grand family. The church in heaven is the school where those who are like God will learn how to become gods and goddesses (Quantum physics, nuclear biology, and creationist geology to start)
“Can you communicate with those that have passed on?”
Yes, but we do not pray to them as the clairvoyants do, that is evil. (See Saul and Samuel in the Bible). They communicate with us when they want to send us a message, and comfort us in trial.
“Can everyone (men and woman) hear the voice of God?”
Yes, the voice of God is all around us, telling us to be at peace and obey; ALL “Light” (physical, mental, spiritual) is revelation from God. Of course the voice of the adversary is there too, telling us to fight, rebel, and "it’s no big deal to sin". “For nothing is a greater injury to the children of men than to be under the influence of a false spirit when they think they have the spirit of God” -Joseph Smith TPJS pg205
“Are all wives considered equals here on earth and/or heaven?”
Absolutely Yes (If anything ladies are MORE important) See “Feminine Feminists” on my blog
“Who considers the wives worthy of heaven?”
God and they themselves do, we will be our own judges and our own accusers. It’s not like we will be able to hide anything, or say we didn’t know right from wrong.
“What happens if a woman dies before her husband?”
She goes to the world of spirits and dwells with friends and family there, waiting for her good husband or the Millennial Reign where all the baptisms and sealing’s will be completed.
pligchild,
Thank you for answering some of our questions.
You are very defensive of some people's comments, and I do understand how you would feel they are insulting. But please, try to understand what all this looks like to us "outsiders." Speaking for myself, I am absolutely baffled at how people could live under the "guidance" of such a mean-spirited, self-serving person. Again, that's MY opinion and not meant to be an insult to you. "We" have a hard time wrapping our minds around some of the things that have happened BY CHOICE or REVELATION in your society.
As far as the jailhouse confession that he wasn't the prophet: thank you for not dancing around that question.
I understand how the FLDS would want to believe that he was "tested" or "drugged" or "mentally ill." But, in my opinion, IF he's taking families away from men, marrying his stepmothers, calling for a rather large amount of tithes, guiding young girls to "choose" to be or remain married, not allowing mothers to talk to their own children in another group, and on and on, then why didn't any of the FLDS think he was "tested" or "mentally ill" then? From my perspective, only a mentally ill (or evil) person would claim to have a revelation from God and do these "hideous" things to people.
Again, I hope you don't think I am insulting you ... I am just having a really hard time understanding when it appears so many people's lives have already been devastated by Warren. Now we can add 400+ children to that group. I believe without a doubt that he caused this.
Thank you, again, for answering our questions. Maybe your explanations and opinions will help.
pligchild is a man, all this time I thought it was female...anyone else?
pligchild, Thank you so much for your honest answers. Its not too much different than what I believe in except the many wives part, but hey that's your belief. I'm ok with that. I've learned a lot from you. I think if everyone looked deeper into all of our religions we can see simlair core beliefs. There are good and bad in all religions, just as there is good and bad all around us. As long as we look inside and feel the love, instead of giving into fear and control, we can all live in peace.
Thanks again for your answers. Bless you.
Pligchild, I'm the one with all the heaven questions. Thanks for your time and information. I know I have a lot of questions, but I can't help it. I'm so over the right and wrong back and forth,the abuse and polygamy questions. Everyone has there opinions and I think we all heard them. As for me, I want to know a little more about other issues.
Do LDS/FLDS believe the "holy spirit is male or female or non-gender?
Do you believe in a father and mother God?
Do you believe, I hate the term, "outsiders" can hear the voice of God and enter heaven? maybe not the highest level, but heaven none the less?
Do members get a "revalation" or hear a voice that validates who the prophet is? Or is it just faith?
Lastly, what and how many levels of heaven do you believe there are?
Is there anything you can refer me to that can go deeper into the beliefs on the other side (heaven)?
Thank you again...
Warren's admissions were just a test.
5/23/2008 8:55 PM
It certainly was a test. And you failed it.
izzy-
"mean-spirited, self-serving person"
Obviously you have never met him.
"IF-"
A lot of what you think is not true, and most is not Warren Jeff’s creation, but it goes back to my original answer: "I doubt you would accept it, and if I tried to make you understand, I doubt you could." Because you don't want to.
"I hope you don't think I am insulting you" OK.... trying to un-brainwash me then by insulting my friends?
"he caused this"
Yes, a man who has been in prison for almost two years was impersonating a prank phone caller from Colorado, and then impersonated an bitter ex member pretending to be an abused forced child bride, and giving slanderous interviews and writing libelous books about it. He caused global warming, 9/11, and world hunger too I suppose. Give me a break.
11:33-
I AM half female!
8:34-
The Holy Spirit is power, all life and energy comes from it; it is the power of heaven and is multi-gender. Omnipotent, omnipresent, and omniscient.
"Do you believe in a father and mother God?"
Yes, Google "O My Father" a hymn written by Eliza R Snow
"Do you believe "outsiders" can hear the voice of God?"
Absolutely, ALL LIGHT (Physical, mental, and spiritual) is from God.
"and enter heaven? maybe not the highest level, but heaven none the less?"
Even the highest level, if you live close to God and do what He wants you to do. See "All outsiders are evil?" on my blog. And D&C 76.
"Do members get a "revelation" or hear a voice that validates who the prophet is? Or is it just faith?"
Absolutely, Faith IS revelation. That is why there is apostasy after every leaders death, we all must start again with God.
"what and how many levels of heaven do you believe there are?"
Three main ones, each subdivided.
"Is there anything you can refer me to that can go deeper into the beliefs on the other side (heaven)?"
Read Doctrine and Covenants 76, and 131, and Lectures on Faith #5. I have a link to these scriptures from my blog. Also see FLDStruth.org
pligchild,
You have me all wrong. See I DO want to understand. I desperately want to understand why splitting families up and marrying young girls is not self-serving and/or meanspirited. I would love to understand ... but I've read your blog and I've read how much you are in love with Warren Jeffs so I doubt that you, either, will be unbiased enough to explain it in a way that makes perfectly good sense.
I tried to "un-brainwash" you? I insulted your friends? I had no intention of doing this at all. In fact, I appreciated your answers and was asking honest questions. If your "friend" is Warren Jeffs, then yes, I probably did insult him but I think he's insulted enough people in his "tenure" that he's got it coming.
Yep, it's my opinion he caused THIS (no, not all the other things you list to unsuccessfully try to make your point). No, he didn't make the call, but he allowed how many?? how many pligchild?? situations of young girls marrying and having babies, like the "caller." His actions, and not just the underage marriage thing, led up to the authorities getting involved. That's my opinion. Obviously yours is different. Fine.
read this post ( 25/2008 3:42PM.)
then ask yourself;
"OMG, who's turn is it to look after street today?"
The Holy Ghost is Joseph Smith
anon 10:17.
wouldn't lying about the Holy Ghost constitute sinning against the Holy Ghost? your own religion urges caution in this matter, lest you become a "Son of perdition".
Thanks again pligchild. I too believe in a mother and father God, I understand about your religion being misunderstood, mine is too. But like you, I don't care. I follow my heart and the law. Therefore, I ask these questions to understand your religion. I will look at those readings you suggested to understand further.
Now I have a few more questions.
I understand that the Bible is one of many of your religious Texts. Is that correct? If so, do you interpret the bible literally word for word or is it more stories to help you understand your faith?
I Ask the same of the Book of Mormon? (I have not read the Book of Morman, so I'm not sure how it reads. I plan on looking at it.)
What is your definition of a Prophet? Could a woman be a prophet? If not why?
Do you believe Jesus was God himself or a messenger of God? I ask the same question in regards to all FLDS prophets from Joseph Smith to Warren Jeffs?
What are your views on Moses and Muhammed? I would assume Moses is mentioned but is Muhamed mentioned in the Morman faith?
Has the FLDS ever in its history, have a false prophet? What would prove someone to be a false prophet?
Do you believe the Mother God appeared here on earth or has sent a messenger, prophet?
Do you believe in the immaculate conception?
I vaguely remember reading this somewhere. I want to know if it is true that Joseph Smith recieved his first visions by looking in a crystal or stone in a hat of some sort. Can you help me out with this?
Ok no more.....I could go on and on...
Thanks!
8:34 - L.
Are percentage of FLDS members are registered to vote?
Does the Prophet get a revalation on who to vote for and advise the people who to vote for?
What were the FLDS thaughts on Mitt Romney? Do you think the fact that he was Morman effected his campaign?
> Has the FLDS ever in its history, have a false prophet? What would prove someone to be a false prophet?
Several leaders who were the senior priesthood council leader (the one man) have been blotted out of FLDS history because they were considered fallen prophets.
If you'll read the "Articles of Faith", you'll get the answers to a lot of your questions:
http://www.fldstruth.org/sysmenu.php?MParent=BELIEFS&MIndex=90
"We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."
As you should know, the Bible has a number of errors in it from mistranslation, alterations, etc. Joseph Smith was working on translating it, but didn't get it as finished as he would've liked before his death. This has been printed as the "Inspired Version", but the LDS Church doesn't have the copyright to it, so it's very hard to find a copy of it. It's printed by the Reorganized Church.
The definition of a prophet is one who has the spirit of prophecy upon him or her. However, there is only one "keyholder" at a time. The keyholder, or Prophet (with a capital P), is the only one who can receive instructions/revelations for the people in general. Others can only get inspiration, or revelation, if you'd like to call it that, for their own personal jurisdiction. A woman could never be the keyholder, any more than a man can bear a child. However, a woman can and should be inspired and have revelation to herself in working with her children.
Jesus was and is God. There's a LOT on this subject, and I'm not sure how much is covered by the FLDSTruth.org website. But there is the Father (Father Michael), Son(Jesus Christ), and Holy Ghost(Joseph Smith).
As far as the other Prophets go, they are all servants of God, who were chosen before the world was, to come and lead God's work on the earth. They are not God, but the channel through which we come to Him. I'm not sure on Mohammad, but I believe hearing at one time, that he was sent by the Lord to perform a work among the Arabs. So, it's kind of the opposite view of Islamics regarding Christ.
Our Father in Heaven has many wives. Some were with Him in the Garden of Eden, and another one, named Mary, was the Mother of Jesus. Father Michael came to Mary, and we believe He is Jesus Christ's literal earthly Father.
The stone you refer to that Joseph Smith translated from is called the "Urim and Thummim" I'm sure you can read about this from the History of the Church, or just some searching online. It was in some ways like a pair of glasses you would look through.
Some of us are registered to vote (I am). There have been times when it was suggested that a certain politician running might do us more good than another, but never any commandment to vote either way. As far as Mitt Romney goes? I don't know how he calls himself a Mormon. ;) It may very well have affected his campaign, but I'm not one who really likes to speculate about politicians.
Thanks for your answers.
L.
Thanks FLDS_guy, you have thick skin to keep posting on this blog, and your answers are much better than mine.
I did fail to mention that the Holy Ghost is the Witness and Testator of the Father and the Son. And that the office of the third member of the Godhead is held by Joseph Smith, the One Mighty and Strong, who witnessed the Father and the Son when he was 14.
The Inspired version of the Bible is online here: http://www.centerplace.org/hs/iv/default.htm
"Several leaders who were the senior priesthood council leader (the one man) have been blotted out of FLDS history because they were considered fallen prophets."
The lineage of keyholders has confused many, and much apostacy has taken place over this issue. The first Apostle ordained by Joseph Smith was Lyman Johnson, and the oldest was Thomas B Marsh, and neither one of them became the keyholder. The lineage of Prophets that the FLDS follow is by Ordination AND Oneness. Wilford Woodruff was not in full harmony with John Taylor, and Joseph Musser nor Charles Zitting were in full harmony with John Y Barlow. Yet the wheat and the tares grew together.
As far as a prophet falling,
"But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead." (D&C 43:4)
I heard a British commedian the other day on BBC America speak on a group of polygamists.
Seems they have banned chocolate because it is the color of the cross and to eat it would be to mock Jesus's crusifiction.
Wonder if Jeffs has thought of that one too.
Pligchild said....
As you should know, the Bible has a number of errors in it from mistranslation, alterations, etc. Joseph Smith was working on translating it, but didn't get it as finished as he would've liked before his death. This has been printed as the "Inspired Version", but the LDS Church doesn't have the copyright to it, so it's very hard to find a copy of it. It's printed by the Reorganized Church.
Look at your pre 1978 Book of Mormon title page. It has an amazing confession.
"And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—
And now, IF THERE ARE FAULTS THEY ARE THE MISTAKES OF MEN;wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ"
TRANSLATED BY JOSEPH SMITH, Jun.
First English edition published in 1830
There are thousands of transcripts proving the Bible was translated correctly. The Bible is the true word from God. Where are the transcripts or golden plates Joseph Smith used to translate from....?
Joseph Smith translated nothing.
He made it up.
anon 5/28/08 8:58 AM
I don't think it can be said that he translated "nothing", only one of his translations (The Book of Abraham) has ever been proven to be a false translation.
It may be that other documents were forged but there's no proof one way or the other.
The profit is acting for god, or rather God is speaking through him, correct? If so, man is fallible, never perfect....
I thought this post was "Questions for the FLDS"
Sorry if I was mistaken
-Start by not answering your own questions. With insults
-Realize that onthestreet does not represent the FLDS
-Don't ask for the purpose of painting them as evil
- Dont ask insulting questions
-Don't assume ANYTHING
- Realize that the FLDS believe as strongly in their religion as you do about yours, if not more.
-Don't try to "convert" them against their will.
- Treat them as equal's rather than "less than"
nevermind
OK, I have a question:
What does Warren Jeffs feel is an appropriate age for a girl to marry?
I have just started to read a revised version of "the God Makers."(Chapter 1 only) I take everything i read with a grain of salt and pray for truth. By being Pagan myself, I found it interesting that the authors say the Morman religion has a pagan connection. I've been recognizing the similarities. I was wondering what you thought about that?
Like the pagan religion, it seems the Morman religion is also critized about religious rituals, due to peoples lack of knowledge or misunderstandings. People say the Morman temple rituals are secretive? Are they really? What can you tell us abut that? I don't mean specifically what the rituals are but the fact that people think they are so secretive and judge you based on that?
Other than Polygamy and blacks holding the Priesthood, how else do you differ from the LDS?
Do other you recongnize any other fundalmentalist groups?
I have learned that lack of information produces fear. I believe we owe ourselves to learn all we can. We should all be learning from each other rather than judging or telling people they are wrong for what they believe. There is a lot of misinformation out there about a lot of things. We have all been victims of that. Thanks for educating us on your beliefs.
I've read many of the comments left by FLDS members on this board. Are all of these members part of Warren Jeff's group?
Most of the answers given here contradicts the truths spelled out in Elissa Wall's book and is exactly what I would expect to hear from members under Warren Jeff's authority.
"Those who are offended, when offense was intended, are fools.
Those who are offended, when no offense was intended. are damned fools."
I would like to apologize, seeing what I do in the mirror. For the shoe fits.
New question.
Do FLDS mothers nurse their babies or do they formula/bottle feed? (Or, is it more of an individual difference?) I didn't see anything about it in the 0-2 daily schedule.
thanks
New question.
Do FLDS mothers nurse their babies or do they formula/bottle feed? (Or, is it more of an individual difference?) I didn't see anything about it in the 0-2 daily schedule.
Just like any mother in America most prefer to breastfeed but it is still a personal choice.
How prevalent are STDs in these polygamist communities? Or would they not be spoken of?
How much is communicated to young FLDS brides about what to expect on the wedding night?
Who prepares her, if anyone? To the FLDS wives reading this... who prepared you and how much did you know about sex beforehand?
"Most of the answers given here contradicts the truths spelled out in Elissa Wall's book"
Exactly what we expect from those under Elissa Walls authority.
4:54
Non existent
5:09
The wedding night is not a night of sex in the FLDS. A marriage in the FLDS is a promise, not a free for all. Most wait for months, if not years. They wait until they rise in love and it is in purity. It is the ladies decision more than it is the mans.
Pligchild,
There seems to be two versions of how marital relations come about and I can't reconcile them.
One version is that the prophet chooses the couples and it has litle to do with attraction or love. Loves results from working together to achieve the mutual goal of reaching the higher level in the celestial kingdom. This version removes emotion and individual will in the selection process. It seems that this side of the story comes up when there is talk of underage marriage. Few deny that ya'll marry a little younger in your group, but the party line is that it's not because the men are attracted to the young girls, it's because the prophet chose them and they trust the prophet. To me this looks like an effort to excuse any perceived sexual ills.
Then there's your version of the story, which makes a little more sense to me. You imply a love relationship and choice. That being said, it's rather difficult to believe that a married couple would wait "years" before consummating their relationship. If the other sisterwives are intimate, having children, and through that growing in their relationship with the husband, it would be difficult for the new wife to be on the outside.
In most of these situations (statistically speaking), the woman must enter into their marriage as a sister-wife, not as the first or only wife. Isn't she eager to jump in and be a part of the family? Doesn't having children with her husband insure a more viable role within the family and create identity for the wife? I thought having children was considered an honor and the highest calling for a woman. Why would a woman ever prolong receiving that blessing?
After hearing about Warren Jeffs "confession" at prison, I was wondering how that impacts his regard as a prophet with the FLDS ,specifically since he denided being a prophet.
How is a new prophet chosen?
'It looks like slick Willie released a statement saying that the FLDS are going to comply with the laws of the land concerning the marriage age.'
That is difficult, since they cannot be married legally anyway, so what age does he mean? I am sure CPS and everyone else would have liked to heard the age 18 mentioned. It was very vague.
What authority is Willie using to speak for the FLDS?
Does he speak for those in Utah, Arizona, Canada, Colorado, etc.?
"Isn't she eager to jump in and be a part of the family?"
Every person in the FLDS is as different as you are from your neighbor. I am sure that "some" would want to jump in quick, and some wouldn't. In my opinion many girls old and young inside the FLDS and out do not realize the power they have. (My wife sure did) And the power that good men inside the FLDS and out give them. The time of intimacy is the ladies domain. Had I married an underage girl (I didn't really know until after the ceremony) I would not have gone to sleep in her bed until she was of legal age. ["Ya, right", says the little pitchfork guy on my shoulder, "you can't say that without experiencing it"]
I don't think fathers should "let" their daughters get married under 16.
"Doesn't having children with her husband insure a more viable role within the family and create identity for the wife?"
I cannot answer from a womans prospective about identity, but from mine the answer is no. She is a viable family member when she gets married. If there are already wives or children she is their family member too. There are many roles outside of pregnancy. Her options become greater than before, not less.
This may sound masculist (my new word for sexist opposite of feminist) but for a man who does not choose his wife, to get a wife is the same as a mother who gets a brand new child. That is how I felt when I married my wife. Like a sweet treasure that would last eternally if treated well.
"I thought having children was considered an honor and the highest calling for a woman. Why would a woman ever prolong receiving that blessing?"
Becoming a goddess in heaven is the highest calling for a woman, but there are a lot of steps to get there. In the FLDS faith, the marriage ceremony is the beginning of a courtship. One that can last forever.
To give details [that I might regret]:
My brother and I got married within two weeks of each other. He knew who his wife was and she was 22. I did not know my wife and she was 18. (My father said "You robbed the cradle!" as she looked 14)
My brother and his wife had their second child a month after we had our first. nuff said
I don't know if you read Carolyn Jessops work of fiction "based on a true story" but in it she told of a certain Tammy, and her marriage with the prophet, never consummated after ten years.(like I would know, but Carolyn did, right?) As I wrote in another comment, In Elissa Walls book she mentioned going to see Warren Jeffs two years after the marriage ceremony. He suggested that they should try to have a child, he had no idea that they had already been trying.
Pligchild,
Thanks for the feedback and information. I find myself assuming a uniformity among the families because of the fact that there is (ideally) uniformity in following the prophet.
Also many of us look at the FLDS group on tv and assume that because the women and children are wearing dresses made out of the same pattern and type of fabric, the men are all scarcely seen, the log cabins all look the same from the outside, etc., that behaviors among the families are just as similar.
Anyway, thanks for taking the time to address some of my questions.
Marriage can be difficult no matter who you are, amen?
Forgive the redundancy if you've already answered this one and ignore it if it's too personal, but are you still married and part of the group?
pligchild
Just a word of caution. Whenever someone says "all, never, not one case, non-existent, etc." I immediately disregard what they say.
4:06
"I immediately disregard what they say."
Great! That means you disregard what Flora, Carolyn and Elissa say too. Good for you.
"Great! That means you disregard what Flora, Carolyn and Elissa say too. Good for you."
Advice for the FLDS. Not everything that people who leave your communities are liars. BUT, out of the mouths of two or three....Be realistic, it sure seems you FLDS say that you have all the truth about everyone and everything. Just because your web site says the truth will prevail does not mean you are the only people with truth. Just because others leave does not automatically make them liars.
Yes, the truth will prevail!
4:06 here...exactly! That's why I disregard Flora when she says they are ALL baby killers, ALL break in their daughters sexually, etc. I didn't mean that just to apply to pligchild.
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