Monday, May 12, 2008
Questions for the FLDS
As per request of several Anon posters here is a thread to ask "candid" questions of the FLDS members. Please keep an open mind and be respectful in all questions and responses. A truly open discussion would go a long way toward dispelling the rumors and innuendo surrounding the FLDS at this time.
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163 comments:
As a mom I worry about spending time with each one of my kids and kind of keeping things "even". Sometimes I feel guilty if one gets a "lost in the shuffle" of a busy day. I think this comes from being one of the youngest in a large family and often feeling overlooked myself. How in the world do you make sure each child gets quality one-on-one time in such a large family group?
My husband and I were talking about this very thing last night and he said he would have a hard time not feeling like he was short-changing one wife to spend time with the other. Hmm... I guess that means he sees keeping up with me is a full-time endeavor? LOL! So I would ask both the men and the women if they feel like any of the adults get "shorted" in a multiple spouse situation.
Well, WWJD, in order to understand the answer to that question, we would have to require that you have a paradigm shift. Can you do that?
The simple answer to that question is: We don't live for ourselves! We live for others, for our children and for our sister wives, Husbands live to bless the work, Wives live to bless the husbands, sister wives and children, they are much to engaged to worry about who's sleeping with who. Who's servicing who, who's got what, and who is loved the most. A true husband loves everyone, and it's never been a truer saying than with each endeavor to love, the capacity to love grows larger. The more children in the home, the more love in us. We are here to make heaven on earth, the only competition being who can do the most for another. So, we don't live for ourselves. I know what your saying, "how is that possible?", well, it takes work, and it takes dedication, it takes overcoming the inherent faults within us. When it becomes first tendency to live and love that way, it is beautiful. I hope that answered that question, the children get much more one on one time than they would in a single relationship, they have many mothers, and they can go to any one of them and know that that Mother loves them, and will do all she can to bless them.
Yesterday was Mother's Day. Is that something even celebrated by FLDS? I've read that all 'outsider' holidays are banned. It seems so appropriate, in this case, that these mothers, who have all these children, should be at least be praised by their men for having such 'heavenly' families. While I don't condone the practices of the FLDS, I just wonder how this holiday is handled.
to quote Rulon T. Jeffs
"Every day is Mother's Day"
Amen
Has there ever been an instance where a young FLDS woman wanted something out of life other than to be married with children. I understand it's instilled from an early age, but even in evangelical catholicism (the religion in which I was raised) there were lesbians or women who did not want to have children and knew they would not make good wives or mothers. Did any of the young women ever desire to have careers or lives outside the compound? Was it discouraged or flat out denied?
WWJD--Cute little sayings aside... the original question remains unanswered...Do the heads of these families take the time to honor the mothers. Or is it just another day.
Sassy
Sassy,
It wasn't WWJD that answered the question, it was me.
To answer the question, No, We don't celebrate any certain day as Mother's day, again Mothers are very special every day, and most that you talk to would tell you that they feel that way. It's tradition to make one day for Thanksgiving-Father's Day-Mothers Day. Every day we should be thankful, every day we should thanks God for our husbands, wives, mothers, and fathers. That's how we feel, that's how we live.
wwjd:
There was a time when every Mother who showed up to "General Meeting" (when we had them) would show up with corsages on them. My Father made sure that both my Mother's got flowers and a card..and we would all wish them Happy Mother's Day. Give gift's etc.. But as time went on we were told to let go of the worldly traditions and the holidays that they worshiped.
This was a shocker to some since we celebrated all the major holidays anyway except Halloween and Christmas.
Hope this has helped answer your ?'s
Anon 6:43
Did you hear about Lorie Jessop, she is an EMT-I!! I don't know if you saw it, but yes, if the ladies would like to do something and have their hearts set upon it, then they are allowed free choice. There is not, and I repeat not any force in our religion!! If there is somebody who was, then I'm sorry they or the person who forced them PLAIN AND SIMPLY was pretending to live our religion and wasn't truly.
There are many nurses, FNP, Midwives, School Teachers, Book Keepers, EMT's, and on and on and on in our communities, that are women. If a woman wants out, then she can leave, as parents, when they are still minors, we have to be responsible for them, but even then I have never seen any of the people I know force them to stay. Rather, I've seen parents fast, pray, and go out at all hours of the night to retrieve them, and offer them a loving home to come to. I've seen the girls leave, I've seen some come back, I've seen some gone for good. There is no force in our religion!!
Are we supposed to believe that all of the women who've left the FLDS and written books are exaggerating? Or they are lying to sell books?
Because frankly, the stories that Carolyn Jessop wrote about are so detailed and awful, she couldn't have made all that up. Especially since she had to fight in court for all of her kids and the Attorney General had to get involved.
Not to mention all the other women who say identical things, after they left. Mary Mackert especially, hasn't written a book and hasn't made any money from telling her story, but she says all the same things.
So are outsiders supposed to believe that all these women are lying? And that 14 year old girls are never coerced into marriage?
Kli,
Have you ever had a bitter hate for something? Have you ever been jealous? Speaking from experience, when you are enclosed in these evils, you cannot see any good in the person(s) you hate or are jealous of. I am not saying none of those things happened, because each family is different, but a good share of them are blown out of proportion. I was blessed with a good family, and I married a wonderful man who would never do those things. He has always been very considerate of me and I love him very much. I know there are some tyrants who really are that way, but for the most part, the men are excellent husbands and super fathers. I can't answer your question about 14 year olds being coerced into marriage, but I did have a 17 year old cousin who did not want to get married but was very heavily pressured by her parents to enter the relationship. She did but left a couple months later.
>There is no force in our religion!!
Free Choice with severe consequences for making the wrong choice? That isn't force. Do I have it right? Anyone can leave the family they love if they don't choose to obey the rules.
I'm just trying to understand this concept of no force.
How would a someone from "outside" be received if they wanted to join the FLDS? Are trhere single adults or is everyone married?
I am a free American Woman. Free to worship the God of my choice. Free to attend the church of my choice and adhere to the doctrines that please me. I am entitled to pursue a career of my choosing with equal opportunity in the world we live. I am at liberty to educate myself to the best of my ability and to claim the rights and privileges of that education. But mostly, I am unconstrained in my relationships and the man of my choice.
Women have fought the valiant fight for liberty and won! With this victory comes a tenacious will to cling to these rights. Why would I willingly disregard the courageous actions of those men and women before me who stood in the gap to assure me these rights? Why would I blatantly disrespect their sacrifice? Through ignorance and fear, ignorance of my own civil liberties and the basics of constitutional rights; and fear of the unknown, of change and most prevailing, of public opinion.
I am a free American Woman who can look around my world and without apprehension make informed choices for my life and the lives of my children. I can use the schools of my preference. I can be an active involved player in my children’s education and instruction. I can teach them the beauty in all cultures and the kaleidoscope that is America. I can help them learn to respect the world around them and hold fast to their own values. I can introduce them to the ways they can grow to make a difference in their own culture as well as the common world. I can teach them to identify the good and bad in their associations. I can educate them in these ways and so many more, and I can do it regardless of the lifestyle I choose.
As a free American Woman, I can choose my husband and do so according to the freedoms granted me by our Great Nation. I can raise noble and worthwhile citizens by his side. I can teach my children that great commandment by example: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” And I can do it living a polygamous relationship if I choose to.
-Wife #2
It looks like there are two FLDS's...the one where women [and girls] are treated as valued members of the family, with some choices and imput into their daily lives. They have outside jobs, go to school and are not married off at 15-16 yrs old. And then there is...YFZ Ranch, where it comes off as more of a closed society where the gates are locked and the wives seem like robots when they appear in public. They are so far outside of the mainstream, they dont even know it exists. Like there is no life outside the ranch.
It looks like Warren Jeffs took what coud have been, a nice happy lifestyle [for lack of a better term] and turned it into heartbreak behind locked gates.It seems his FLDS is run more on fear and suspicion than the teachings of Joseph Smith. How far off am
in my assessment?
Curiosity..
Why is there a bed in the temple?
"no force in the religion"
Sorry... a jury saw it differently. Forced marriage is what put Warren Jeffs in jail... as it should have.
You are ignoring the painful facts if you delude yourself into thinking there is no "force" in the religion.
I have so many questions ... its hard to choose one to ask....
First, let me thank you in advance for being willing to answer our questions... That is very generous of you.
Carol.... How old were you when you married?
Much has been said about the prophet taking away wives from men who cease to be considered worthy of them.
How would you feel if this happened to you. Would you happily go to your new husband?
How often does this type of re-assignment of wives happen?
To anyone....
Someone wrote a comment on another thread about polygamy being essential for the afterlife. Men needing many wives to populate their planet with children. And then a cryptic comment about the ending.... Could someone explain this belief? I have read references in other places about the number of wives that are necessary to attain Heaven. Street.... I have read your answers... let someone else answer please....
Thank you for taking the time....
Angel
ok, I got a question.
I'm looking at this picture at http://thehopeorg.org/
I'm seeing a 90 year old geezer
with 2 brand new brides
who can't much over, say 19-20?
sorry,
but only one thing comes to my mind
and it ain't got nothing to do with god or religion
...maybe one of you can help explain this to me?
keep sweet texas
stg
I have a few questions that im sure everyone is curious about also.
(From a previous answer about marriages being of legal age)
1. What do the LFDS consider to be a legal age? Is it 16 or 18?
2. to the women of polygamy, how do you feel when other women tell you that your brainwashed, and that you do not leave because you dont know any better.
3. How do you feel when your 16 year old girls are married to men in their 50s-70s?
4. I think that alot of our issues as outsiders is not the many women to one man relations is the age of the children/girls.
how do you feel when your husbands are called pedophiles. Because to many of us any man that wants to be with a girl of that age is exactly that, and should be in prison.
Angel,
I was a month over 18. And because I do not agree with everything the FLDS are doing at this time, NO, I would not leave my husband for another man. I have seen men have their families taken away for NO REASON other than to maybe prove that the "profit" has the "power"? They had done nothing wrong and they knew it. What I don't understand is how their wives so willingly go to another man. Where is the LOVE in that, if we are supposed to be such a "loving" people?
Carol,
Thanks for taking time to answer the questions and it's good to hear you say that you wouldn't leave your husband. When I heard that was happening, it just made the group look hynotized and brainwashed. Allowing your family to be reassigned or going along with it (if you're the wife) just seems to go against every natural instinct one would have.
Angel
Joseph Smith taught that as man is God once was; as God is, man may become. Our purpose here in this existence, by Mormonism creeds, is to learn all we can and hopefully gain the experience and knowledge to someday advance to the point that we can create our own worlds and people them with our children. All poeple on this earth are literally the children of our Father in Heaven in the Spirit world. Eternal progression will eventually put each of us where He is now. I saw the same cryptic reference to 'the end' and wondered what was meant by it. I have no idea. The poster that mentioned it I would guess from his other posts is neither LDS or FLDS and probably has been fed some inuendo against Mormonism on this topic.
Curiosity
Your assessment is somewhat correct. It is true that warren has gone to extremes that have not precedent in the history of this group that separated from the LDS church. Those that truly follow him seem to be much different than those who are lukewarm or outright disagree with his modes of administration as myself and others such as Carol above. It seems the more support they have for warren the less common sense is applied to living.
Carol mentioned the lack of love in the families that have left husband and father and been reassigned. These women have chosen the love of warren's principles above the love of their husbands so it is not a lack of love per se as much as it is the object of their affections. They are convinced following warren's principles is the only way to heaven. They are in their minds choosing salvation above their husbands. Many can truly say it was heartbreaking to lose their husband and be reassigned but they convinced themselves they were making the only choice available to them.
What I meant by "the ending" is that in the celestial kingdom (the LDS and FLDS afterlife), women are helping to populate their husbands' planets with all of his other wives. The way this happens is she is eternally pregnant.
I didn't realize women (mainstream LDS especially) wanted to be a forever pregnant plural wife as a reward for a life well-lived on earth. It just doesn't sound like much of a "pat on the back".
My post was very tongue-in-cheek, but I'm right about the celestial kingdom, aren't I? The husband gets to be a god and the wife gets to be pregnant....some more.
wife #2, you don't sound like you are FLDS, are you? I suspect your are with a different group. If you chose your own husband, than according to Warren, you don't have a priesthood marriage. Isn't the prophet supposed to choose for you? Confused.
"How would a someone from "outside" be received if they wanted to join the FLDS?"
The FLDS no longer accept converts. They haven't for many years. However, they do believe at some point in the future they will have a key role in gathering Israel and converting them.
If they no longer accept converts then isnt incest a problem?
and i would like to see the answer for the question that was asked about what your group considers legal age? 16 or 18
Anon: 7:43am
When I was married.. I was asked by the Prophet "how do you feel about marrying so'n'so? I replied " I feel fine about that" I knew who he was although I didn't "know him".
I think this is what is meant by most of our women when they say they "chose" their Husbands.
Although there are some couples that "chose each other" in many cases they were sent away to repent and later married by the Prophet.
I have a wonderful life.. I am still the only wife..but I am praying that we can be blessed with another lady in the family. My Husband told me that it is ok for the wife to pray for a sister wife..but as for the Husband it is no concern of his until he is invited to live it.
I guess I didn't expand on the point I inadequately made above. When one asks questions of the FLDS they need to understand that there are different factions (for want of a better term) of the FLDS. The group that split from the LDS in the '30s and '40s has divided many times since. In early '90s the name FLDS was coined and used by those following Rulon Jeffs, warren's father. No one was known by this name until then. Since that time there have been some divisions as well and so you have people with different views being called by the name of FLDS. Currently there is an "FLDS" group following Winston Blackmore in Canada and an "FLDS" group following what is left of warren's regime. Between and outside of these there are many independent (post '90) "FLDS" located throughout at least three states. On top of this you have the media using FDLS for any faction of the original '30s and '40s group. So when you ask a question of the FLDS you have to know which group is answering. For myself the legal age would be 18. I would guess (and hope they would correct me) that any in warren's crowd would tell you that the legal age is whatever the 'prophet' says. His word has priority over the laws of the country.
fttc and the others thank-you for you answers,
Couldn't the the term UEP United Effort Plan be used for Warren's group. When a group leaves the UEP, they would still be Fundamentalist Mormans.
How many FLDS have access to to read the revelation by Wilford Woodruff and his writings on the subject of polygamy?
Are you restricted from reading other teachings?
So what I'm getting from this, is that women who have escaped the FLDS and fought for their children are "bitter" and "jealous". ??
Any woman who leaves the FLDS and exposes the trauma they experienced are exaggerating and lying because they are blinded by bitterness and jealously. ?
Do you realize how insane that sounds? Have you actually read all of those books? Have you heard Mary Mackert's testimony? I suspect that if you could take your own "blinders" off, and see that these women do not seem hateful, and their stories are not full of jealousy, that maybe you could see how this looks from our perspective.
As a child I was baptised and made to go to the mormon church, it was fun, learned a lot, but found it was not the right church for me. I was taught that Polgamy was against the Mormon religion though there were followers secretly practicing Pologamy. It was my understanding that Polgamy started as there were more women than men, in order to procreate men had to take several wives. But the teaching was only if he could afford another wife and children. In the times when Pologamy was openly practiced there was not a welfare system. Would you say that collecting financial aide, medical insurance, and food stamps, meant for the poor and destitute from the government, would be considered the husband being able to afford another wife on his own?
Lets remember, this blog was put up for open communication on both sides. If we are to maintain any open communication and understanding, we must be careful not to judge any actions others, even if we disagree.
Please maintain this blog for understanding and open minded discussion, not judgmental questioning.
I would like to know if FLDS folks get social security cards.
I would like to know if they have birth cirtificates.
I would like to know if the children from spiritual marriages are on welfare and if the women are registered with the welfare system as a single mother.
I would like to know if they file tax returns and if they do are they claiming to be single mothers.
I would like to know if these women will get the stimulus package from the government for all of their children and do they have to hand over this money to their spiritual husbands.
I am really intereste to know the answers to these questions.
Thank you.
s
Who is now leading the FLDS in CC? I'll understand if it is confidential. Is it still Lyle? What about overall. Willie Jessop is in the media and writing to President Bush. Is he taking on the role as president while Warren is still revered as prophet? Are Merril and Wendell his counselors? If not, why were keys taken from YFZ with their name tags that send 1st Presidency?
As far as no force in the religion. An electric motor has no force; the rotor is not phyically moved. It is just magnetic fields encouraging it to move. Well, I wouldn't recommend trying to stop a moving motor with your bare hands.
An automatic transmission (unless locked in overdrive) has no physical force; just transmission fluid gently persuading the car to move, but not forcing it. Let's see you win in a tug-a-war against a car's transmission.
I consider undue pressure to be a form of force.
I think anon 11:18 had GREAT questions! Will someone please answer them for us?
Also, my wife and I read Carolynn Jessop's book, Escape. It was a great read that broke my heart and made me sick. I'm open to thinking that some of the stories are exaggerations, but if even 25% are accurate, then the FLDS have a LOT of explaining to do! If more than 25% are accurate, then this abuse should cease immediately!! Have any members of FLDS participating in this chat read her book? What are your thoughts? What specific experiences that she told are wrong, if any?
Anon 7:43,
No, I am not FLDS. There are many different kinds of polygamous people, just as there are many different kinds of whatever lifestyle is at the top of the public opinion wheel. I did choose my own mate, and in my opinion, I have a 'priesthood marriage', which is to say that I have God in my marriage as much as anybody else can claim to. Does that answer your question?
Do you think that Warren Jeff's specifically wants such young girls to get married & preganant stems from him trying to ensure the growth of his "people"? Perhaps he selects young wives for the men he thinks can "keep the girls in line"? If the girls get married by the time they're 16 and have children -- then they're not going to want to leave their children behind so they'll be stuck as part of the group. To me, that is more likely than Jeffs just being a pervert who likes to supply his good ol' boys with youngster-wives for sexual purposes (especially if those men aren't supposed to be having sex for pleasure, only for procreation -- of course, for most straight men, they will have to experience pleasure or there won't be any procreation happening...)
I, too, am interested in a reply to 11:18's questions. If the answer to the first two questions about birth certificates and social security cards is no, then what is the reason?
"Please maintain this blog for understanding and open minded discussion, not judgmental questioning."
Are you directing that at me?
The answer to my question claimed that these women who escaped the FLDS are all jealous, hateful, and exaggerating all of their claims.
I'd like a more honest response than that. Because that's not honest. Perhaps the problem here is that none of the polygamists on this blog have read any of the books, so do not even know what's in them?
That would explain the blanket dismissal of these extremely serious, corroborated stories.
Everyone has Birth Cirt's. and S.S. cards...
and as far as the welfare goes I can only answer for what I know.
The only plural family that I personally am aware of..when they did apply for F.S. & Medical it was..Husband,Wife #1,Wife #2,Wife #3.etc..they applied as a family.
I looked at their form as I was asked to vouch for knowing them. Three of the ladies in that family were related to me.
As for my own family..(only wife) yes we were on F.S. & Medical for about 1 1/2 years as we fell on hard times. My Husband lost his job..I was a stay at home Mother and our two older sons supported the family until we got back on our feet. We got off welfare as soon as we could as my Husband referred to it as the "government tit" and hated the idea of asking them for help.
Anon,
Yes, we do get social security cards. Yes, we do get birth certificates. Some children are on welfare, some aren't depending on the beliefs of the parents. Yes, even in this group different families believe differently on things like that. Yes, we do file tax returns and what else can we claim, if the government doesn't recognize the plural marriage? Yes, we will receive the stimulus package, but not likely for all the children. Maybe one or two. And if the plural wife chooses she can keep the money. This is just one perspective, there are definitely many more.
Kli,
I was talking from my perspective, and I was Honest to my knowledge. I know there are some men that really are that horrible to their families. But it is not the norm. And I said some of it could have happened. But I will say yes, I do believe they are hateful, jealous and exaggerating. I will make no compromise on that because I know from experience how a person(s) can seem from the hateful, jealous side. And when you are enclosed in that little world, you tend to blow things WAY out of proportion. I am not denying things like this have happened. They have, but it tends to be the ones that are NOT living their religion. Is my answer any better??
OPRAH tommorow Lisa Ling is doing a story on the FLDS. Elissa Wall is also on the show, it might answer some questions.
I have two questions. Thank you for considering them.
Could someone please explain to me why handicapped or severely ill children are seen as (for lack of a better word)products of their mothers' disobedience to the prophet and God? Isn't every child perfect and loved by God equally?
If Warren Jeffs is a true prophet, why did some of his prophecies not come to fruition? He was wrong. According to the Bible, a true prophet of God is never wrong.
10:54 PM ...
"it might answer some questions" ... from Elissa's perspective... which is different from everyone else's in many respects... and which is my point in this post if one cares to read on.
kli...
I am former FLDS - born and raised. I have read Carolyn Jessop's as well as Mary Mackert's books. (Yes, Mary did write a book: Sixth of Seven Wives.)
I, too, escaped with my children.
I chose NOT to write a book - at least so far - although I have been approached and encouraged many times to do just that.
After leaving I chose to live a relatively quiet life working hard for a sense of balance and normalcy for me and my children. It takes a great deal of effort and fortitude to live the plural life and it takes as much or more to survive and create a whole new life on the "outside" when you've known no other.
All my "outside" friends and acquaintances know my background, so I have not tried to keep my former FLDS life secret. I had many mothers, was a plural wife for many years and bore many children. I have never been ashamed of that.
However, if I did write a book, it would not sound like Carolyn's or Mary's. Mine would include all the wonderful people, events, and years I experienced. There was a great deal to cherish and celebrate. Sure, I would also include some of the darker elements I experienced too, like the jealousy, competition, loss of individuality, the emotional struggles, etc., and even a few salacious tidbits. (I did leave for a good reason - not one I'm willing to divulge here - but I'm well aware no currently faithful FLDS would agree there's ever a "good" reason.)
I was horrified when I read Carolyn's book. I had NEVER, EVER experienced the violence and unspeakable disrespect she relates. Until I read that, I had no idea a priesthood man could, would, or ever did run his family that way. I have known and heard of a number of men who molested their children and some who would give brutal beatings to wives and children. To my mind those were very few compared to the larger FLDS population. Even though I've been gone for some time, I'm inclined to think that's still true.
Aside from perhaps 3 or 4 spankings as a youngster, I have never been struck or physically threatened in my entire life - not by my father, my mothers, my husband, my sister wives -- no one. Carolyn's stories seem ghastly to me by contrast.
A point to consider is that each man - each patriarchal head of a household - has their own individual and often very different leadership style.
But, who can say if they are exaggerating? What you're reading is their own personal account as they experienced it - not what it's like for everyone who identifies themselves as FLDS or former-FLDS. It's simply their perspective. And even if those who were actually there to witness the writer's experience were to claim there is exaggeration, it's still from the claimant's standpoint. We all know that ten people can witness a single event and then hear ten different versions in the telling of it.
When I read about other women's FLDS life stories, I think of how therapeutic it is to write it down and not so much for the money. Truly, if it's a way to get beyond the bitterness, I say "Go for it!"
Personally, I've never harbored bitterness or hatred toward my people. They ARE my roots and none of my choices in life can ever erase that nor would I wish it. My roots are made up of thousands of loved ones and relatives who are basically and courageously trying to work out thier salvations and live their religion to the best of their ability according to their teachings.
However, the one question I'd like to ask and get an honest answer is:
Why must we be shunned?
simply heart and home:
That is not true.
We were told by Uncle Rulon (our Dear Prophet) that the children that are born with handicaps are the MOST PRECIOUS spirits of our Father in Heaven..and that he sent them to the earth that way so that they could NOT be let astray and that when they returned unto him they would be Pure and Innocent.
He also went on to say that the spirits in heaven have a choice as to whether accept a body that is handicapt or refuse it.
you know,
when most people first come across these people
they picture old guys with baseball bats
dragging around little girls by the hair
locking them up in cages
well, that simply isn't true
in fact they do a lot of things right
one of the reasons they've been around so long
but on the same token
Flora and Carolyn?
don't really fly around on brooms either
keep sweet texas
stg
I agree with Carol...
There are some Men that are very mean and rule with an iron fist when it comes to their family.
But this is not the norm in most families. We have been taught to Govern through LOVE and KINDNESS and be LONG SUFFERING.And most of our members do just that.
So I really feel sad when a few Men that don't treat their families as they should...and treat their Families wrong...their actions reflect our People as a whole.
feralfem:
I didn't know Mary Mackert wrote a book -- I'd only seen her on an interview. She spoke so well on the subject, and did not speak anything hateful or spiteful, that it seemed ridiculous to hear FLDS women calling her jealous and full of spite. Totally ridiculous. Sorry.
I don't think FLDS women should be shunned - I don't know where you're getting that idea?
There are a couple of other things that I've been seriously wondering about, I hope someone can answer.
#1. Are any of you worried about the problems your children may have as a result of 100 years of inbreeding? Your groups aren't large enough to keep the gene pool from creating problems. I've read that there are some issues within the FLDS related to that. Does it concern you at all or is it just not something you worry about?
and #2. Is it true that FLDS are not supposed to hug, cuddle, kiss, and generally show affection to their children? Carolyn Jessop claims she was not permitted to do this and had to escape to be able to hug and cuddle her kids. She makes it sound as if this is common FLDS belief. I was wondering if the FLDS women here could explain that?
Why must we be shunned?
In Pauls 2nd letter to the Thessalonians 3:6 he wrote:
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
This was written while the Thessalonians were still new in their faith, it was meant to keep them safe from bad influnence.
feralfem,
Thank you for sharing your story!
P.S. interesting ID name
Steve
"10,000 is hardly a small gene pool."
After over 100 years of intermarrying and not allowing outsiders in, 10k is a pretty small gene pool. I'm curious whether the number of mentally handicapped or disabled people in the FLDS is higher than average on the outside. But I understand if nobody knows the answer to that.
Where in the bible does it say that theres a prophet, one that has the say to remove wives and children from their husbands?
and where does it say in the bible that the prophet has say in all, even over god himself.
as i grew up marriages were sacrid, special (which im sure that yours are to you), allthought i am not religious now, i grew up Catholic, but we were raised to not believe in divorce unless under certain circumstances, and the last time i checked one of those was not "its what the prophet commanded"
so please show me (pages) where it says these things.
I have read Carolyn Jessop's book and she states a number of times that her husband and her sister wives told her that her son's illness was due to her disobedience to her husband and God. I understand that you say that her account is inaccurate but she seems very credible to me. The Attorney General thought so too. It is hard for me to believe that she made all that up.
Regardless, my heart goes out to all the women and children of FDLS. I too was a victim of abuse as a child so I understand a little of where you are coming from.
There is freedom in Christ. You do not need to be held in bondage by anyone even someone who says they are a prophet.
Someone mentioned that the only blood atonement was Christ dying on the cross for the sins of all. I believe that as well. If you too believe this then is not your salvation (place in heaven) already decided by this faith in your heart? I do not understand the necessity of complete obedience to a man who you call the prophet. A true prophet of God is never wrong or makes mistakes. Warren Jeff has predicted things that did not come to pass. That makes him a false prophet.
You all are in my prayers.
erra...still waiting for an answer to my question
about Rulon and his brides.
If no willing FLDS
maybe there's a Park'r or Kingston
that may care to chime in?
I mean, what separates Rulon with say?...this guy
this guy
(and I'm not kidding)
keep sweet texas
stg
Finally someone making sense simply heart and home. The bible teaches us that there will be false prophets before the coming of Christ. I can clearly see this happening here. Please read John 3:16.
Annie I found something to answer your question but...
"In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven." Hebrews 1:1-3
Hello~
I don't have a TV ... did anyone see the Opra show that was mentioned earlier? I'd love to hear how it went.
Thanks!
One could assume that abuses occur in the same percentage of families inside as out. It is not necessarily the religion causing it, rather, it is a creation of man himself.
If abuse is not the norm, the non-participants should not condone it happening when they become aware of it. Just like "outside" if we become aware of abuse or illegal behavior we report it and cause it to end. We disagree with it and we make it known.
If you don't expose it, it appears you don't disagree with it. You condone and accept this behavior. That is why you will be "shunned" by a society that does not support those same beliefs.
The thing that bothers me most about the whole situation is the secrecy. If the community is not doing anything "wrong" then why is so much being hidden?
If you disapprove of the behaviors of the "few" perpetrators of abuse, why not expose them and get them out?
A few bad apples...
Book of Mormon, Jacob 2-24
Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord.
25. Wherefore, thus saith the Lord, I have led these people forth out of the land of Jerusalem, by the power of mine arm, that I might raise up unto me a "righteous branch from the fruit of the loins of Joseph.
26. Wherefore, I the Lord God will not suffer that this people shall do like unto them of old.
27. WHEREFORE, MY BRETHREN, HEAR ME, AND HEARKEN TO THE WORD OF THE lORD: fOR THERE SHALL NOT ANY MAN AMONG YOU HAVE SAVE IT BE "ONE WIFE; AND CONCUBINES HE SHALL HAVE NONE. Read it for yourselves.
they went into the compound, the women admited that the girls there were married at 14-16 and that it was ok and normal because they were taken care of and treated well.
the women said that it was ok espically because the younger wives get treated better then the older wives (g i wonder why).
they went through one of the homes the women always had men around them at all times. before they answered any questions they had to look at someone before they could respond. You could tell that she wanted to answer some basic questions but she wasnt allowed to, when even asked how many kids were at her house she coudlnt answer, then just said "theres alot" with a smile.
the one that was giving the house tour also could not tell us how many sister wives that were living there. from the size of the place it looked like there were atleast a min of 15-25 kids there. The house was HUGE each bedroom looked to have 6-7 kids in each room. They showed a large room? it looked more like a meeting room with about 30 (minimum) plastic school type chairs from the way she talked it was basicaly their living room.
they looked through the compound that jeff lived at, thats abonded now. there were secred passages for the women/kids to escape incase the place was raided. there was a birthing center for them to give birth in so the hospitals wouldnt ? the girls giving birth (im sure because alot are teens)
they talked to the girl that brought jeff down and her now husband.
It was pretty sad to watch, and i now have a differant opinion on even these women, and how they had to have been raised. You could see in their faces that they wanted to say things but couldnt, you could see jealousy in their faces when they talked about how the younger ones got treated better.
Anon with no TV, you can go to the oprah site... www.oprah.com
Hello,
First of all Polygamy is illegal:if you want to practice it go somewhere where it is legal.
Second engaging in adultery/sex with underage girls is considered illegal:if a person wants to practice this they should go somewhere where it is legal.
Thirdly it makes logical sense that people engaging in illegal and immoral/deviant behavior by most of the American population religious or otherwise, these people will have a hard difficult time convincing the rest of us that such behavior is legal and beyond judgment or reproach.
Illegal is illegal.
6:22
Oprah was interesting. Warren Jeff's old compound with all the secret passages, etc. That's just bizare. In one of the secret rooms behind a secret wall panel was scrawled in marker or crayon the word help with the name Elizabeth underneath it. If walls could talk.
You may be able to see the episode online? I know my daughter and I watch some of the shows we miss online. I've never watched Oprah that way so I'm not sure if it's available on line but it's worth checking out.
simply heart and home:
I still have to disagree with you because..I know for a fact that Merrill's oldest son has a disables daughter (from wife #2) and they have a picture plaque in their front entryway that states how blessed they feel as a family to be chosen by God to have such a precious spirit come into their lives..that the Lord trusted them enough to give them this special child that would need lots of care.
I can see where a jealous wife would say hurtful things to another wife..but it is hard for me to swallow that merrill would say such things as he knows and understands the same teachings that I do.
Doctrine and Covenants Sec. 132
31. This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.
32. Go ye, therefore, and do the works of Abraham; enter ye into my law and ye shall be saved.
33. But if ye enter not into my law ye cannot receive the promise of my Father, which he made unto Abraham.
34. God commanded Abraham, and Sarah gave Hagar to Abraham to wife. And why did she do it? Because this was the law; and from Hagar sprang many people. This, therefore, was fulfilling, among other things, the promises.
35. Was Abraham, therefore, under condemnation? VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, NAY; FOR I THE LORD, COMMANDED IT.
38. David also received many wives and concubines, and also Solomon and Moses my servants, as also many others of my servants, from the beginning of creation until this time; AND IN NOTHING DID THEY SIN SAVE IN THOSE THINGS WHICH THEY RECEIVED NOT OF ME.
39. DAVID'S WIVES AND CONCUBINES WERE GIVEN UNTO HIM OF ME, BY THE HAND OF NATHAN, MY SERVANT, AND OTHERS OF THE PROPHETS WHO HAD THE KEYS OF THIS POWER; AND IN NONE OF THESE THINGS DID HE SIN AGAINST ME SAVE IN THE CASE OF URIAH AND HIS WIFE; Read it for yourselves.
anon 7:27 and 6:25,
When I put your two passages together it sounds like Joseph Smith was making it up (doctrine) as his mind changed toward polygamy. God is perfect, holy, and pure, unlike people. This is one example of how the BOM doesn't square with God's character.
What I do see is that Hagar's offspring has been at war with Sarah's offspring for at least a hundred years now with no end in sight (Isaac's descendants are jews and Ishmael's descendants are muslims).
It's hard to argue with the actual facts of what you can see with your own eye in the mideast.
Is God really blessing the Hagar, Sarah, and Abraham triangle?
Joseph Smith was a fraud, from most outsiders perspectives. He claimed to translate the Book of Abraham from some old Egyptian scrolls, because at the time no one could read hieroglyphics. Once Egyptologists could translate the script, they looked at Smith's scrolls (I think in the 1960's?) --anyway, they proved that the scrolls said nothing Smith claimed. It was a total fraud.
This isn't about Smith and what he taught regarding polygamy. I don't care. I think Smith was a liar and possibly insane. This is about what is legal in this country, as well as what we consider "abuse".
None of the FLDS have answered many questions here yet. But I'll pile on another one anyway. Why do FLDS teach that the outside world is evil and want to destroy the FLDS people? Expecially since most of us are very kind people and would help anyone in need? Most outsiders don't hate the FLDS - on the contrary, they are concerned about the women and children there!
Doctrine 132
Doctrine 132 was dreamed up by a man who could not keep it in his pants.
There is NO LAW.SHOW IT TO ME, DUDE.
Sari gave Hagar because she decided God could not deliver on His promise of a child,so she took things into her own hands. Abraham complied in HIS UNBELIEF.
And look what happen.
God made Lemonade out of lemons.
God made Abraham and Sarah deal with their sin of putting Hagar in the mist of their unbelief.
Hagar and son where sent away. Who delivered her and child from death.
God, not Abraham. If there was a law why was Hagar and child sent away? Answer that dude.
What happen after that, God gave Sarah a child.
Abraham, a heir after he realized their sin of unbelief.
If there was a law, why did Abraham wait until Sarah was so old and without child, to take another wife. Why was Hagar sent away?
There is no law GOD GAVE.
Oprah asked Elissa about the beds found in the Temple, she said that it was possible that they were used for sex, but also that they were used for what the men claimed. We have Morman neighbors that leave for Temple early on Sundays and don't return till late afternoon, these are fasting sundays and I could see that some of the woman would need to lie down, because they are week from not eating.
To Anonymous 5/15/2008 6:25 AM
Have you read any of the writings of Wilford Woodruff?
Please enlighten me.
Good points 7:13 and 8:15.
I hope that the lawyers that prosicute the cases have good knowledge of the Bible.
My neighbor has one of those medal detector things, he is always out searching, he has yet to find anything more valuable then a few coins, bottlecaps or scrap medal, I find the Story of Joseph Smith very hard to beleive.
I have a QUESTION!
WHAT HAPPENS TO THE BARON WOMAN?
It's really hard to follow what's been answered and not, but I'll answer a few questions that I noticed:
"Is it true that FLDS are not supposed to hug, cuddle, kiss, and generally show affection to their children? Carolyn Jessop claims she was not permitted to do this and had to escape to be able to hug and cuddle her kids. She makes it sound as if this is common FLDS belief. I was wondering if the FLDS women here could explain that?"
I'm not a woman, but I can say ABSOLUTELY NOT!! The little ones around my home get lots of hugs and kisses. They're the most important part of our lives and should be taught through love and kindness.
"Why do FLDS teach that the outside world is evil and want to destroy the FLDS people? Expecially since most of us are very kind people and would help anyone in need? Most outsiders don't hate the FLDS - on the contrary, they are concerned about the women and children there!"
We don't believe that everyone out in the world is out there to destroy us. However, as can easily be seen, there are many who would love to see our entire destruction. There are many very kind and caring people out there, and we really appreciate them. We believe it's better for someone in the outside world to live the best they know how than for one of our members to go against the teachings they are taught. God is just, and all His children have a chance to accept His gospel, whether it's in this life or the next. One of our fundamental beliefs is that He is no respecter of persons.
I didn't notice if it was asked or not, but there's quite a rumor that we hate black people. This is not true. We do believe that the Negro race was cursed because they didn't want to help Jesus in the war in Heaven and just stood on the side watching. Their curse is that they must wait until after all of Father Michael's children have a chance to receive their blessings before they are allowed to receive Priesthood blessings. There are and have been many very fine black people. They can believe, and even be baptized, but that's as far as they can go in THIS LIFE. A black person who lives honestly and uprightly is a lot better off than a white person who throws his life away.
Oh, and one other thing: I first heard the term "bleeding of the beast" from this very blog. It didn't originate from our people, and we're not being told to defraud the welfare agencies.
I'll answer more questions as I have time. Please don't overwhelm me. ;)
I just wanted to say that though I'm not the same religion as you people, I agree that Texas did wrong by all of you and that I hope you all get your children and familys back together soon!! I love my country but I fear my government..
Mormons Temples aren't open on Sunday's. But, yes, Mormon Temples have beds inside for those that need to rest. So there was no story there.
If you'd bother to go to the Captive FLDS Children site you'd see plenty of pictures of parents being affectionate with their children
Arrrrggghhhh!
Thanks to all who are answering questions. It is very enlightening.
It seems that many of the problems that face polygamist communities stem from having to keep so private about having multiple wifes. Mainly being afraid of prosecution from the law, and possibly persecution from others.
My question is: What would happen if polygamy was legal?
Would the polygamist communities open up more to outsiders?
Would polygamists venture outside of their commuities?
Steve
I've been to the Captive FLDS children site, and I'm not too impressed because it just feels like a big whitewash/propoganda/media offensive to combat all the negative stuff. I understand why the FLDS feel the need to do that. But what you're saying is that Carolyn Jessop and her kids are all lying about the "rule" against affection. Or is this just something Merril Jessop's family did, and isn't a common FLDS belief?
Secondly, the African thing. Yes your beliefs can be seen as racist because your prophet teaches that black skin was a mark of a curse from God. (This is completely contrary to Christian theology, incidentally.)
The only proof you have that black skin is the mark of a curse is the revelations of your prophets. Forgive me, but it seems a little suspect that a white guy claims to be a prophet, and receive "revelations" on how people of other skin colors are cursed.
The whole FLDS sect has a very Aryan/White power undercurrent that is creepy.
So what you are saying is that God conciders me a second class citizen because my skin is not white...I don't think so. And we must be saved in the current world it will be toooooooooo late after our earthly death.
It was recommended to me to come and try to answer questions on this site. I am not FLDS but I do have three wives. I live in Utah. My specialty is the legal aspects of bigamy in Utah and the history of plural marriage in the legal system of the United States. It is my position that Utah's and Texas' bigamy laws are unconstitutional so if you have some questions for me let me know and I will do the best I can.
"So what you are saying is that God conciders me a second class citizen because my skin is not white...I don't think so."
Not at all. There are a lot of black people who are a lot more decent and upright than many whites. There are good and evil people of every race. You have just as much right to salvation as anyone else. I'll quote from fldsview.blogspot.com:
"The black race cannot be a part of the Priesthood family in this life, but we hope to see as many as will pass their own trials and purify their own lives in the highest heaven too. I believe there will be many."
It's our beliefs; so let's leave it at that. You're not the least bit hated, and I have complete respect for any person, regardless of their skin color, who lives their life the best they know how.
JJ, thanks for coming.
OK, here you go.
The FLDS could have easily gotten around the problems in Texas.
Divorce the first wife, legally.
Marry the 16 year old, legally.
The law can do nothing against you if you do things legally.
Steve
How do you explain away the fact the in our origional Bible ir says in revelations that there shall be no other books written (or something like that I am paraphrasing). Or are you believing that the book of mormon is the new Bible and the centuries old one is not the true inspired word of God?
Did you know that you are in a cult lead by a man and not God's true word?
OK Steve,
I think you may be right in this regard. But you still have to be careful because of the bigamy law. Even though the man divorces the first wife if he is still having relations with the first then he is guilty of bigamy in Texas law. The reason for this is because they appear married and they believe they are married. Now that sounds messed up to me. The bigamy laws as they stand create thought crimes for people who want to believe that they are married but legally aren't.
Oh Steve, one more thing, if the man divorces the first he is liable for alimony and child support. Even though the woman may not want to collect these payment the state can still force it on the husband, especially if welfare becomes involved. Then the only thing happening is that the family gets a new tax because not all of the money from the man ever gets to the woman and the children. I know of one case like that here in Utah and it did not involve welfare.
J.J.
To anon 5/15/2008 2:05 PM
"How do you explain away the fact the in our origional Bible ir says in revelations that there shall be no other books written (or something like that....."
This is the scripture:
Revelations 22:18-19 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: v19. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
What original Bible are you talking about? When was that original Bible compiled?
Johns revelation was written as a book.
The Bible, even the 'original one' was not compiled as a book, until many years after John received the revelation. In fact, several books that are in the current or even 'original' Bible were written after Johns revelation, and included when the Bible was compiled.
Dear FLDS Guy
I think most of the FLDs are upstanding individuals, believing their way of life is Godly, to the point of breaking the law of the land.
But I want you to answer me this.
You were told not to use the welfare system. I have been told this before.
Maybe in your circle of family that is true. The FLDS is a big community.
But Warren demanded so much money for his "special communities" that women and children who were "left behind" had no choice but to be on welfare to feed their children.
By the way, what about the older women and older children left behind?
The children, mostly the older boy's don't understand why their father left them to go to Zion.
Are you taking care of them?
Is Bishop William Jessop?
All Seeing Eye
Steve if polygamy was legal, it would be a hay day for pedifiles.
What would be the legal age limit? If street wrote the law it would be 12 years of age.
Also, how many wives could one man have? You would have to regulate that also.
I sure would make the law be equal so the women could sue each other for alimony and such.
Now wouldn't that be fun!
All Seeing Eye
Anonymous said...
Doctrine and Covenants Sec. 132
31. This promise is yours also, because ye are of Abraham, and the promise was made unto Abraham; and by this law is the continuation of the works of my Father, wherein he glorifieth himself.
Street, that was before Jesus was born. Therefore, you are not Christian. Also, you should have continued reading Jacob... it got a LOT better!!!
I have a question for FLDS. Why do you believe in arranged marriages? Why do you marry minors?
IT IS WRONG. And that is coming from another polygamist.
The foundation of Mormon Fundamentalism is freedom of choice. Let me explain:
"it is more pleasing to me that men should use their free agency in regard to these matters" 1886 Revelation.
Apparently according to a Mormon Fundamentalists revelation God says that free agency is more pleasing to Him.
So what are you doing?
JJ
Steve are you FLDS?
and if you (not steve but the men in general) want to have many wives fine, but why are you marring children?
Why cant you marry these girls when their 18? Why would you ever want to marry anyone at any age that doesnt want to be married to you. I would think that just by not doing this it would stop all of your problems with the legal aspects of this, the hiding etc.
Just because your married does not give you the right to have sex with that person or to do anything with them physically if they dont wish it.
We do not give birth to our children for men to think they can and have the right just do as they please with them.
Hi,
A few more answers:
I was never told to use or not use welfare. It's really a matter up to the family itself. If their circumstances warrant it, and it's legal to do so, why not? There's been no "commandment" either way. We try to make sure no one is left in need of food, clothing, housing, etc. These things are taken care of through the storehouse. The older children who can (legally, I should add), generally help out the finances of the family. A lot of the married women work, too. The families whose fathers have gone on other work missions are generally taken care of by the older children and even mothers getting jobs and working to sustain themselves as much as possible. I believe the fathers that have left their family in CC are getting a place ready for them to move in to. But as you say, the FLDS really is a large community, and each individual household has its own set of guidelines and rules as well.
"I have a question for FLDS. Why do you believe in arranged marriages? Why do you marry minors?
IT IS WRONG. And that is coming from another polygamist."
First let me honestly state that I am not married. I'm a single guy in my early 20's. Now with that said, let me tell you what I have been taught and also observed. The main reason for the arranged marriages is to stop immorality. Many people have this false idea that any old man from our group can tell any young girl that it's her "duty" to marry him and have intimate relationships with him. Nope, that's totally wrong. Many people would try to falsely use our religion to gratify their lustful desires. We do not believe that a plurality of wives was ever instituted for gratification of lust, but to raise up noble children.
As to marrying minors. No where are we commanded to marry minors. Most who are married are 18 or older. Those who are younger, generally they or their parents have requested it. I would not marry someone who was not willing to marry me, whatever her age -- end of story there.
"Just because your married does not give you the right to have sex with that person or to do anything with them physically if they dont wish it.
We do not give birth to our children for men to think they can and have the right just do as they please with them."
And I couldn't agree with you more. Women are just as important as the men, and it has never been men against women. It's men and women together. Each is as valuable as the other.
Just look at the videos and pictures on the captivefldschildren.org site and try to tell me those children haven't been hugged, loved, and well taken care of.
Hi,
A few more answers:
I was never told to use or not use welfare. It's really a matter up to the family itself. If their circumstances warrant it, and it's legal to do so, why not? There's been no "commandment" either way. We try to make sure no one is left in need of food, clothing, housing, etc. These things are taken care of through the storehouse. The older children who can (legally, I should add), generally help out the finances of the family. A lot of the married women work, too. The families whose fathers have gone on other work missions are generally taken care of by the older children and even mothers getting jobs and working to sustain themselves as much as possible. I believe the fathers that have left their family in CC are getting a place ready for them to move in to. But as you say, the FLDS really is a large community, and each individual household has its own set of guidelines and rules as well.
"I have a question for FLDS. Why do you believe in arranged marriages? Why do you marry minors?
IT IS WRONG. And that is coming from another polygamist."
First let me honestly state that I am not married. I'm a single guy in my early 20's. Now with that said, let me tell you what I have been taught and also observed. The main reason for the arranged marriages is to stop immorality. Many people have this false idea that any old man from our group can tell any young girl that it's her "duty" to marry him and have intimate relationships with him. Nope, that's totally wrong. Many people would try to falsely use our religion to gratify their lustful desires. We do not believe that a plurality of wives was ever instituted for gratification of lust, but to raise up noble children.
As to marrying minors. No where are we commanded to marry minors. Most who are married are 18 or older. Those who are younger, generally they or their parents have requested it. I would not marry someone who was not willing to marry me, whatever her age -- end of story there.
"Just because your married does not give you the right to have sex with that person or to do anything with them physically if they dont wish it.
We do not give birth to our children for men to think they can and have the right just do as they please with them."
And I couldn't agree with you more. Women are just as important as the men, and it has never been men against women. It's men and women together. Each is as valuable as the other.
Just look at the videos and pictures on the captivefldschildren.org site and try to tell me those children haven't been hugged, loved, and well taken care of.
JJ, with respects to Texas bigamy laws then, do you think that is what the AG in Texas is going to go after. The Bishops Record is pretty clear about who is 'married'
to whom.
Re: divorce. I know Utah has a much better system in place for making fathers more responsible for supporting their children in situations of divorce. (family member)
Generally the thought of most people is that polygamists do take advantage of gov. assistance. Do not get me wrong, everyone is entitled to it when the need arises. But in today's world, most average families are having a harder and harder time making ends meet. If a man is taking on more wifes, and then children, than he can provide for it seems that gov. assistance will be used more freely. Ehen you read 'The Primer' report on the Utah AG website, it does give stats on percentage of gov. assistance in both Hilldale and CC. 66 and 76% if I remember right. That seems much higher than the average.
read in the paper this morning about the YFZ ranch. Investigators are looking into the fact that the land was purchased for $700,000. Now they have holdings of 20.5 million. This is not all sweat equity in 5 years.
hmmmm The government is going to follow the money.
Yes we have read the "revelation" given to W.W.
If you will note..it starts out with "to whom it may concern???"
If you are familiar with the D&C you will note that NO WHERE does the Lord begin a revelation with "to whom it may concern" !!
W.W. was a very good man up until he chose not to accept the word of his Prophet...so he was turned over to the buffetings of saten. And that is who gave him that "revelation".
Annie the simple answer to your question is that in the Mormon belief the more children a woman can have in her earthly life the more favored she will be in Mormon Heaven. (That is why in any interview Marie Osmand will state how she has 8 children). So the sooner a female starts having babies the better.
I heard a very crude saying a many years ago OLD ENOUGH TO BLEED OLD ENOUGH TO BREED!
JJ, I have so many questions. I am going to list some in this post. They may not be complete sentences, but I think you will get the point. I realize you are not FLDS, and this is a blog for FLDS questions, but this is probably the best forum I know of.
I am LDS, living in California. I feel STRONGLY that what the FLDS are doing, marrying minors, is WRONG! Morally our society is headed on a downward spiral. Just look at my state. Legal gay marriage has just won an appeal in the SC (one vote should not be a majority). My wife had ancestors who lived the law of polygamy. So, to say that gay marriage is OK, and polygamy is not, just does not sit right with me. With the exception of FLDS, my take on polygamists is that they are morally upright, honest, hard working people. But, with everything happening in the media, including Big Love on television, polygamy is being seen as a way to have sex with multiple partners. (that is legal now anyway)
Back to questions
Number of polygamist men in western states and Canada.
Average number of wifes.
Average number of children per wife.
How do you support everyone financially?
Stance on: Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon, Manifesto, Articles of Faith? What about #12?
Southern Poverty Law Center?? ahahaha Are you serious?
http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3a3e5cb925c4.htm
Steve,
None of my posts are being made. If you have a different forum that you want to use let me know.
JJ
I come a large family my grandmother had 11 children. Which i think is wonderful im not saying it isnt. I always wanted alot of kids but my husband at the time didnt, so i wasnt allowed to. But you can still have alot of children if you start at the age of 18 not 13.
out of curiosity, What and how do you treat women that have fertility problems, or cant have children. Im sure there are women as their are out here that have this problem.
for the coment about: and for the men that believe that.
OLD ENOUGH TO BLEED OLD ENOUGH TO BREED!
I wont even say anything about that. Their are a**holes everywhere i guess.
Maybe the next time you put your daughter(s) to bed, and kiss them good night. Look into their eyes and say that to yourself and see if you still feel that because those little girls in say 5 years are the same as the women that you think that about.
Steve, Maybe I am too long winded. Yes Texas will prosecute for bigamy. They said they would. Read Holm v. state a Utah case to see how. Any bigamy case that includes a minor has no hope. If there are only consenting adults and absolutely no other charges than bigamy then they can appeal to US supreme court. It is their only hope. Then they can appeal to ideas in Roe v. Wade and Einstandt v. Baird and Lawrence v. Texas to ensure their rights as consenting adults. These cases deal with issues that appall polygamists but these cases deal directly with intimate rights for consenting adults.
jj. you may need to try posting several times. make sure you are getting the green printed note.
I would like to ask this question of the FLDS men.
If you received word that Warren Jeffs said it was revealed to him that you should marry a 15 year old girl, would you do it?
To the FLDS women.
If you had a 15 year old daughter and Warren Jeffs said that it was revealed to him that she should marry a 50 year old man, would you allow it?
anon 8:25 - You are completely wrong about your version of the "Mormon belief" on having children. I am LDS (mormon) and my wife and I only have two kids. We chose to stop at two. It doesn't matter how many kids you have, only how you love and care for them!
Please only speak about things that you know about. Don't publish something that you've "heard" in this forum. Only facts. By the way, IF you are LDS, you are REALLY REALLY mistaken and I hope you don't force your wife to have a bunch of kids to acheive some supposed "Favor" in heaven! That would be extremely sad. People should only have children because they WANT to. There is no other viable reason.
FLDS Guy
What will you do when your fearless leaders or prophet are found to be the "husband" of a very underage girl with child?
Anon 1:26 pm
you asked:
"I would like to ask this question of the FLDS men.
If you received word that Warren Jeffs said it was revealed to him that you should marry a 15 year old girl, would you do it?"
My Answer: Yes I would...BUT I would refrain from having
intercourse with her until she was 18. (believe it or not..there have been many men that have done just that)
As for your question for the women...you will have to wait for an answer.
As for the mark of Cain, all of Cains desendants were destoyed in the Flood, only Seth's desendant Noah survived. Were all from one of Noah's sons.
My skin is the color it is because of where my ancestors originated, the closer one is to the equator the darker the skin.
He also preserved Cain himself.. because part of the curse that was put upon Cain was that he would not die..but would live until the Savior's second coming. Can you imagine living that long ? what a curse to live under.
So do the FLDS (and LDS) think the black race as a whole are cursed or not?
Howdy all,
I left this blog over a year ago, and answered most of these questions then, but rumor is more convincing when you don't like the beliefs in the first place.
Honest questions can and will be answered, but insulting questions will chase good people away, as they should.
The only question I will answer now is:
"What and how do you treat women that have fertility problems, or cant have children. Im sure there are women as their are out here that have this problem."
The common misconception that is being thrown around (Even by Carolyn etc) is that mothers without children are shunned, children bring status to mothers in the FLDS, or a greater reward in heaven. None of this is true.
Children are God's children. HE decides when someone is able to have a child or not. The FLDS have children to help HIM bring children into the world through good parents. That is all.
Some of the most celebrated women in the FLDS never had a child of her own (well, through her womb as they claimed all of us) Aunt Suzie Barlow, Aunt Permilia Jessop, and Aunt Lydia Jessop off the top of my head.
My grandmother had four children (including Susan who died during the 1953 raid when she was five) She is practically diety to us.
CTR
God put a mark on Cain. The Mark was to protect Cain from being killed. (Maybe he gave him blue eyes, or caused all his hair to fall out.)
Ham became the Father of the Canaanites. They settled in Canaan (Palestine), they are related to the Isralites.
I watched 20/20 last night they had Jeff on there. They showed him talking to his many wives and others through prison glass, talking about his prophecies, and what’s been told to him through the voices that he hears.
What makes him any differant then any other schizophrenic walking this earth?
Hi,
Thank you for letting me post on the site and for open communication with others that may not share the same denomination as myself. I have a couple of questions to ask. I was looking over all the documents that papers say were seized from the bishop's office. I was curious as to why the babies six month and under were not listed by name..but, by "baby boy" or "baby girl". Also, do the mothers have their own private rooms or do they have to share with other sister wives? And my final question on their site I noticed some down syndrome children. How do they handle when that child grows up. Are they still allowed to live with their parents? I seen that their was hardly any girls living at home after the age of 16 in those papers...while, I know they may be just a portion of the families living there.
Thanks guys...these children are always in my prayers for the Lord's will to be done by them,
C.M.
Why do you never see a elderly person, or one who is too old to have children? Where are they?
Why must we be shunned?
In Pauls 2nd letter to the Thessalonians 3:6 he wrote:
Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
This was written while the Thessalonians were still new in their faith, it was meant to keep them safe from bad influnence.
5/14/2008 9:15 AM
Ok, but what happens when the person leaving the FLDS is leaving because of the BAD INFLUNENCE......
a priesthood man who is a child molester of his many children including the boys.
And was not corrected by the prophet?
And you choose to throw those Bible verses freely from a book Mormons think is faulty because it was written by men.
Read the introduction in the front of the Book of Mormon.
It says...And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgement seat of God.
My goodness the Book of Morman may have mistakes?
See comment above for example of insulting question
Are all heads of family addressed as "Uncle" by the wives and children of the other families? I've read where some of the men are fondly called "Uncle". Is that a standard way to address men, not of your family, of is it an endearment saved for men of higher faith?
What happens to all the older women. There must be seniors citizens among the groups, but
I've rarely seen photos. Where are the really old ones?? Are they cared for by their families?
Thank you....
How much can a female, UNDER the age of 18, with no assets & legally unmarried expect to receive in welfare benefits (cash, food stamps, medical, etc.) in the states of TX, AZ & UT? How much does her guardian or parent(s) receive?
How much can a female, OVER the age of 18, with no assets & legally unmarried expect to receive in welfare benefits (cash, food stamps, medical, etc.) in the states of TX, AZ & UT?
Factors involved or is there a determining formula across the board?
Thank you for your time.
"Sigh"
Just when you thought you could answer some questions.
It is insulting to try to help people understand the religion on the very same post that lurid accusations are spouted as facts.
I have thick skin and can handle the garbage, but are the questions asked honestly? Do you really want to know because you are curious or because you want more reasons to hate? And what is the point of answering if you don't want an honest answer? Most of the posts on here take accusations as facts and then ask "Why?"
Would you answer me if I asked "Why did your mother assault your father? You are alive aren't you?" And then even if you did answer I said "Liar!"
Anon 3:30 wrote:
"Ok, but what happens when the person leaving the FLDS is leaving because of the BAD INFLUNENCE......
a priesthood man who is a child molester of his many children including the boys.
And was not corrected by the prophet?"
First thing good for you for leaving, find some athority to talk too, follow Elissa's example.
I won't arque about the Books of the Bible being written by men. Many New Testament Books are letters from the Apostles to the New Christians, I always find it a pity that we don't have copies of the letters with the questions from the people to the Apostles.
"My goodness the Book of Morman may have mistakes?"
Really!...no one but Joseph Smith seen the original, last I heard he was just a man.
Thank you for this post. Before I take advantage of this opportunity, I'd like to say a few things. I don't believe consenting adults practicing thier religion should be shunned. I believe the FLDS has sickos, just like all religions have sickos. Many man have taken advantage of people by using GOD for thier own selfish needs. I pray for all woman and children that are being oppressed or abused, no matter what thier religion is, that they are saved. I pray for the innocent, that they are returned to thier loves ones to practice the life they choose.
Now, I have a few questions...First, I'd like to know more about what the after life (HEAVEN) is and what it means to members of FLDS. What happens to you when you die? Is that the whole concept behind polygamy and many children? Do you believe you are all reunited in the afterlife? If so, I'm, trying to understand how you can be with your children, when they have thier families. Or is everyone all together? Do you believe you can commuicate with those that have passed on? Can everyone (men and woman) hear the voice of God? Are all wives considered equals here on earth and/or heaven? Who considers the wives worthy of heaven, God, the prophet or thier husbands? What happens if a woman dies before her husband?
Thank you for your answers.
Is Val Jessop paying child support for his wife Marie? Marie deserves his support of the children, after all they are still married legally.
I have a follow up question for flds men.
I know that, even before Warren, the men are instructed to start trying to have children as soon as as a new wife feels that she is ready. I have never heard of anyone being told to wait until the girl is 18 if she says that she if ready. I also know that there is a lot of pressure on young wives to be "ready" as soon as possible.
I can't imagine that Warren has changed his stance on this and has started telling men to wait until the girl is 18.
If Warren instructed you to marry a 15 year old girl and soon after being married she told you she was ready to have children, would you then try to have children with her?
Has Warren started telling men to wait until the girls are 18?
To the FLDS women.
If you had a 15 year old daughter and Warren Jeffs said that it was revealed to him that she should marry a 50 year old man, would you allow it?
What about the Lost Boys, those from about twelve to eighteen, who were kicked out of their homes and dropped on the roadside to fend for themselves? Most reports say there are at least 400 and likely more that this has happened to. I understand they were removed for infractions such as wearing shortsleeved shirts or talking to a girl or listening to music.
There are organizations that are now assisting those they can find, or who can find them.
With the need for plural wives, it makes 'mathematical' sense that the excess boys would have to be removed from the marriage pool, but how is this reconciled in the hearts of their mothers and fathers?
wow, just read some of streets ramblings. No wonder you people are confused.
Blood atonement - What precisely is involved in this practice and what circumstance would prompt this situation?
What about the Lost Boys, those from about twelve to eighteen, who were kicked out of their homes and dropped on the roadside to fend for themselves? Most reports say there are at least 400 and likely more that this has happened to. I understand they were removed for infractions such as wearing shortsleeved shirts or talking to a girl.
With the need for plural wives, it makes 'mathematical' sense that the excess boys should be removed from the marriage pool, but how is this reconciled in the hearts of their mothers and fathers?
Is Onthestreet Val Jessop???
Anonymous said...
What about the Lost Boys, those from about twelve to eighteen, who were kicked out of their homes and dropped on the roadside to fend for themselves?
____________________
What is your source for this information? I would really like to read it.
When I do a google search for FLDS and Lost Boys, I got alot of hits. Where are all these 'lost boys' now,(I understand they do not like this term, but for now there seems to be none better to describe them) and why are they not coming forward?
Steve, I will try to continue with your questions. I have no statistics on polygamy. Look on wikipedia.
Jospeh Smith: We believe everything Joseph Smith taught and believe we should live all the gospel as it was restored to him. If God requires things of one person but not another then He cannot be just. The law of God is the same for all people in all times. God's requirements never change. The manifesto WAS a result of a revelation. It is the revelation of 1886 that says that everyone has free agency to choose for themselves. The LDS church chose not to live plural marriage. We believe that we should live every law of the land unless it directly opposes God's law. Like Daniel in the Bible or the three Hebrews that went into the fiery furnace. Sometimes the consequences are sever but everything works out through faith. God will fight your battle.
JJ
I don't think Val has ever been that confused.
Why do so many teenage boys "choose" to leave while the teenage girls "choose" to stay?
What do FLDS think of Warren Jeffs' jailhouse confessions that he's not the "prophet."
Thanks for answering questions.
Nora Jeffs in court: "I agree to follow all recommendations so long as they don't conflict with my religious beliefs," Jeffs said.
The judge voiced some concern about her response.
"We all know why we are here. You have a right to religious freedom up until the point where it breaks the law," Gossett (the Judge) said.
My question. Do you think Nora Jeffs really understands why she is there?
She may be one of the women on TV that kept saying, "there is no force here."
Quote from the judge when Nora Jeffs says that she will do what the court asks, as long as it does not conflict with her beliefs.
“That doesn’t give me a lot of confidence,” Judge Gossett said, staring down from the bench at Ms. Jeffs, who was dressed in a pale blue prairie dress. “Your right to your religious belief ends when it violates the law.”
It has been posted by other FLDS that basically they do not have to follow the laws that are made my evil men. What about this judge? How far will the FLDS go to get back their children?
Blood atonement - What precisely is involved in this practice and what circumstance would prompt this situation?
5/19/2008 1:36 AM
--------
A- they kill you.
b- you piss off the prophet
Anonymous said...
Blood atonement - What precisely is involved in this practice and what circumstance would prompt this situation?
5/19/2008 1:36 AM
--------
A- they kill you.
b- you piss off the prophet
Oh Pu-leeze!!!
I'm pretty sure Warren Jeffs gets pretty pissed off when he's getting buggered in prison but nobody who testified against him has turned up dead.
If this is true how come there are all these EX-FLDS people running around? I would have thought especially the Jessop women and Elissa and all those with books out, etc. would have had bad "accidents" or been found dead by now if this were really true.
Many times I have visited the site captivefldschildren.org. Am I the only one that finds the songs creepy? I listen to them and they just make me get goose bumps because they sound so odd. Not ONE uplifting song on there.
Also, if you visit fldstruth.org, why is it that there is nothing written for Warren or Rulon? Is it because there isn't anything good to say? Is it because this is when the corruption began so there isn't much good to write about them? I find it odd after all this time there isn't anything written for them?
Also, why is it that warren uses such a monotone voice when speaking? Does it brainwash better? I've seen interviews with the women and they speak in the same monotone. It is really creepy. Why no influction of any sort? No emotions just monotone like there isn't any personality inside? I know that any god doesn't require that you talk monotone.
Lets see, Val is legally married to Marie yet he lives with Laurene
and takes care of her children. Ruth is his closest companion and Laurene is not. Is he confused?
Where are all the senior citizens? You never see them on TV or in the news.I saw 1, maybe 2, on the Bishop's List...so where are they? Were they left behind at CC/Hilldale? Too old to work the fields and be productive at the ranch?
I also found this: http://www.apologeticsindex.org/f/PolygamyLeaders.pdf [Slow to load, by the way] which was a big help in seeing the progression of polygamist leaders and it's different sects..[the LeBaron group is fascinating, but a totally different topic!]
Curious
"Am I the only one that finds the songs creepy? I listen to them and they just make me get goose bumps because they sound so odd. Not ONE uplifting song on there. "
I thought the song a little girl sang about her mother being like an angel sent from heavenly father was sweet. Gut wrenchingly so given recent events.
If you're looking for something a little jazzier you probably won't find it because they consider their songs to be almost like prayers so they're more quiet in tone.
Where are all the senior citizens? You never see them on TV or in the news.I saw 1, maybe 2, on the Bishop's List...so where are they? Were they left behind at CC/Hilldale? Too old to work the fields and be productive at the ranch?
I would say that is part of it, but looks like they have only enough housing for those that need to be there. After all this is supposed to become their new Zion, and it looks like many of the men are in Texas without their families.
A work in process; the housing even appears to be less opulent than what many are accustomed.
7:25 ....
You thought the song was sweet????
It is hideous, and frightening ... they all are. I have to wonder where they found a child to sing? The songs are obviously written to portray 'stolen children', and have been produced since the YFZ raid.
I just can't believe anyone could listen, and call it "sweet" ... yuck.
The only thing frightening is peoples attitude toward those children.
The only thing frightening is peoples attitude toward those children.
6:54
Yes, I found a young child singing (beautifully I might add) about loving their mother sweet.
I have to wonder about somebody who would listen to an angelic little girls voice singing about loving her mother and find it "hidious", "frightening", "creepy", etc.
I have to wonder if you would feel the same if it were a little catholic, lutherine or protestant child singing the same song?
Actually I don't have to wonder but I feel sorry for you that your heart could be so callous and cold toward a little child because of your feelings about her parents.
I also found those songs creepy. Do they not write songs that don't involve a child and a Casio keyboard?
AND the "children's daily schedules" is complete BS and sugar coated beyond belief. Instead of just playing with toys, or spending time on the streets, the children are
taught to use their time wisely. Weeding the garden, cracking nuts, reading true stories, feeding the
chickens, visiting the grandmothers, helping with community projects, etc., are some of the things
the children do during their recess times.
Sure, every other child in the USA is spending time on the streets. WTF? AND I guess the kids aren't allowed to have an imagination, so they can't read fiction books. Heaven forbid! Are you sure that "bible" of yours isn't fiction?
Not to mention toys seem to be a big no-no.
I was kind of creeped by the songs too. Not the content of the songs, which is sweet and all, but they way they were done just sounds like something out of a horror movie.
I think the whole captive children website is transparent and manipulative...even worse than the tearless grimacing from the women they paraded on tv.
Who is making this poor girl who is obviously not in "captivity" sing these songs? Where is HER mother? If she hasn't been taken away from her parents, aren't the words a little confusing to her? Or does anyone care about how she is taking this all in?
Did you listen to the words of the songs? Can you imagine her having to learn all the words? She sounded like she was maybe 4 - too young to be a fluent reader. I think the FLDS is once again using young people to achieve their goal - in this case it's gaining the sympathy of gullible outsiders.
9:57
First, I don't believe the song is the child's making in any way aside from her singing what she was told to sing. And, I am not judging some child because of what I think of her parents. I think children are adorable whether they are Catholic, Lutheran, Caucasian, Asian...not sure where you got any of those ideas on how I was judging the child. I know I didn't say those things in my post. Seems you made some up as you read my post and also made some very large assumptions. Also, how do you even know how I feel about her parents? I stated some questions about the sites, I didn't say anything about any child's parent.
The songs are creepy. And that's my opinion. Seems other people have the same opinion. I'm not asking for them to be all cheery, but at least ONE song could have happy children in it with a happy song. EVERY song on there is disturbing to me.
I agree with the post that said they could be played in a horror movie.
No matter what church I have ever been to, even if it was a hymn, I have never heard songs that gave such creepy chills.
Anywho..I just had to clarify that the songs are creepy to me, but the judgments you assumed I had made are completely off the wall. Maybe you think that way, but I do not. I don't judge on any religion or ethniticity. I like good people--without prejudice.
"Sure, every other child in the USA is spending time on the streets. WTF?"
Actually they're sitting around like couch potatoes playing video games, im'ing their friends and getting fatter, stupider and more and more spoiled.
This is my opinion based on the increased incidence of childhood obesity and weight related illnesses, the dramatic slide in placement of American kids compared to other nations children academically and the rash of violent and deadly outbursts in our schools.
3:46
If you think this is the majority of children, you are wrong. Unfortunately these things do happen. You could also state, as past posters have, the number of child pregnancies and abortions..but again, if you believe that is the majority of children in the United States, you must live with your eyes wide shut.
Even I live in a major city. And although I do see these things on a daily basis, for every one pregnant teen I see, I see many more that are working hard to go to go to school and are involved in sports and/or additional activities..learning to play instruments, outreach programs, etc.
All kids are a result of their upbringing. Not ALL adults let their children just sit and watch television and play video games. Most parents I know are very very involved in their children's lives and guide them to be outstanding citizens in society.
I could say that all parents in the FLDS are molesters. I believe there is one molester and pedophile in the group. But just because I believe that there is one, even though they are in the same community, I wouldn't label them all molesters.
But if people want to categorize that way. I can too..but I can do it about religions, races....all those things that make us individuals.
Even people in impoverished neihborhoods have different goals. You can have some kid who has parents that don't care about him so he's out on the street joining gangs. But next door, in the same neighborhood,could be someone that is struggling but at the same time making sure their children are educated, involved in activities that will help them grow and keep them out of trouble. This way, they can live a better life than what their parents were able to give them.
One poster recently touched on this and the question has not been responded to yet. I will reiterate it and add to it.
Is Warren Jeffs still the prophet of the Texas branch of the FLDS church?
What is thought of his jail house confession to his guilt pertaining to the molesting of his sister and daughter?
When the time comes, would prophetic leadership pass on to a son of Warren's or branch out elsewhere?
Thanks in advance.
This is Scott.
Out in the world it looks like most of the children are involved in sports or the boy/girl scout functions..which is good as it keeps them busy.
In our society we feel that building up is better than being involved in competitive games/sports. That is why we concentrate so much on working as it is improving ones surroundings.
Since we are trying to foster understanding, I'll share what my (non flds) family is like. My children will be out of school in a week and we are trying to figure out what to do with our summer together.
We are planning a trip to see family (in Texas), I am signing my children up for a sports activity and an academic activity. We will spend lots of time riding bikes and swimming, catching bugs and planting flowers. They will be required to take care of their rooms and help me a little around the house.
We will not be watching much television with so much beautiful weather to enjoy. We do not own or play video games. We grill out a lot and eat lots of fresh fruits and veggies (which we usually do anyway).
When FLDS folks say that parents on the outside allow their children to engage in all these unhealthy behaviors, it offends me. How is that different than the way the outsiders judge the FLDS parents?
my non FLDS family.
Son will be working in the yard, working with my father on the ranch rebuilding fence, swimming, reading and playing mindless video games when I let him as well as playing in his rock band and learning to drive under supervision with his learner's permit. He will also work out and run as he is the quarterback on the high school junior varsity football team. Last summer he was a junior ambassador to Japan from our city.
My daughter is spending the summer living with a family and studying Spanish in Spain. She will probably drink alcohol and wear a bathing suit at the beach.
Both a product of public schools and an open society.
7:28
I'm 38 but are you looking to adopt?
:)
Thanks to all those who have been very frank, open, and honest in these discussions. I grew up LDS and left the Church in early adulthood, and do not believe in the Book of Mormon, the D&C, the POGP, Polagamy, or many of the other fundamental Mormon beliefs. However, as a growing youth seeking answers, I found the modifications to many Mormon principles, as well as what appeared to be revisionist history by the LDS church confusing and disturbing. If Polagamy was ordained by God, why was there a sudden "prophesy" as Utah was seeking statehood? Why was there a "prophesy" in the wake of the ERA anent the blacks and the priesthood? THe early Mormons were viewed as strange and peculiar, even by 19th century standards, yet, because of their beliefs, they sought a land of refuge where they could worship and live their beliefs. Through hard work, they transformed a wasteland into Zion. Yet, they maginalized those practices to mainstream with other Americans. The FLDS and other organizations that felt that this was not God's plan, should, in a way, be commended for adhering to their belief system and breaking away when they felt their belief system was being corrupted by external influences. Although their lives may still seem stange and peuliar, there are many other examples of devotion to religious principles that are praised - Martin Luther, the devout Catholic Priest that broke away from the church because of corruption. I say let them live as they see fit. As with any group, religious or non-religious, there may be some that are corrupt, but I believe they will splinter and fall - as the stong stand up for their human dignity. I believe this group is now splintered - those that are criminal will fall and those that are sincere will perserve.
Ok I have a question well I have like a thousand questions, in the bible the propehts of god did not dictate marriges, they did not have this complete control over peoples lives. They were guides, leaders but not the end all. So why does warren jeffs have all of this power. Samuel did not tell people who could mary and who could not, he did not cast people out. Even in the time of judges when the nation of iserael was ruled by a council of prophets, and they did not dictate arranged marriges. I am just confused on where all this power comes from if there is no previous precedent!
From what I understand, the FLDS believes that anything the prophet decrees is divinely inspired and must be obeyed. It is extremely difficult for me to understand how a human can be bestowed such power, it seems quite sacreligious. Don't we all fall short of the glory of God? Putting this much faith and power into a man, a human like the rest of us, seems dangerous and clearly breaks the Second Commandment. Warren Jeffs imposed so many ridiculous rules, such as outlawing the color red when he himself was caught in a red car. But those in your community were raised to believe that they must obey the prophet, correct? And defying him means an eternity in hell, correct? So FLDS followers have no choice but to believe everything he says? Why would God choose such a man to be your prophet? Is he infallable? If so, when did he become this way, at birth? Do you believe that when you pray your prayers are heard by God or the prophet?
Thanks,
Rachel
Does anyone know exactly what's wrong with Warren Jeffs that has caused him to be hospitalized in Las Vegas this week?
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