FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs may be serving life in prison, but his followers continue with their work on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas where the group's white limestone Temple towers over the town they are building. Polygamy, the practice of plural marriage, appears to be alive and well in the Lone Star State, despite laws to the contrary.
Friday, May 02, 2008
Bishop's Family Record
The Bishop's Family Record seized during the YFZ Raid was released by the court on Friday. Go HERE to download and read!
I empathize for the women, children and, yes, even the men who have devoted their lives to FLDS. I don't believe that all of the people have malicious intentions (which is shown by the men that have one wife or two wives at R17) but I do believe that they have come to accept this travesty as "the norm." I don't believe that the men just woke up one day thinking that they would abandon their wives and children in the twin towns. However, if you look at the Bishop's records, you will notice that most of them left their older wives (and the children they had with them) in other states, but I believe that it was a combination of their false prophet's instruction (along with their libido's desires) that made them leave their 40+ wives to go to Texas and begin a new life with their younger wives and children. Brainwashing and sex drives can't be wrong, can they? So sad how these cults play on the worldly desires... If the rest of us could have our secular/sexual desires confirmed by a prophet, who knows what this world would be like.
Anyone agree? I don't think evil was the intent of the masses. It was just a convenient confirmation. Disagree if you like.
Well, if these men left there older wives for younger ones thats pretty messed up. But hey if it was allowed the other way around to where the women could leave the old farts they got stuck with when they were 13 for an 18 year old so its equal then why not i guess. but its not equal, because the men know full well that as soon as their child brides turned 18 they would get left and end up with with the "old ones"
Ive been reading these posts really trying to understand this and how you live, as most people that are here that arent members i guess.
Whats sad about this is that I think if things were run more fairly and not by a male sexual ego society AND you could marry whom you choose at a legal age that you'd have more members.
Women now days want to be stay at home moms, want to go back to when men were men, women were women and the kids could be raised in a safe envirnment BUT your children arent safe. They are from outsiders but not from its own male members. All i know is, that its a shame it has to be the way its run.
You will notice the dates on the Roll, they are from the spring of 2007, many of the wife's and children left behind in the twin cities are probally among the woman and children that were at the ranch. I noticed that too that children under 6 months didn't have a name.
anon 11:47, you wrote - I don't believe that all of the people have malicious intentions (which is shown by the men that have one wife or two wives at R17)
I couldn't download the list so I didn't see the ages of the members but my guess would be that the men with 1 or 2 wives were young. My understanding is that the men acquire more wives with age.
To download the list you will need ADOBE READER, this can be downloaded free off the internet. I was suprised at the name of one of the families, and that one of the wifes and children were in Idaho, I thought Idaho was Blackmore territory.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Is that a complete list of the compound? I would guess not since some weren't even in TX. I only glanced at it, to get a feel for the ages. From what I saw, there were 2 or 3 under 18 and no one under 16.
I thought these statistics might hed some light on our society.
When the figures of the investigation come out, we could then compare our society with theirs.
For your own information you can google Us teen pregnancy and abortion rates.
Teen Pregnancy Rates in the USA
by Victor C. Strasburger, MD University of New Mexico School of Medicine
The United States has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the western world, despite the fact that our teens are not more sexually active than Swedish teens, or Canadian teens, or British teens.
Why? Because we don't educate about birth control in sex education classes, we don't discuss it at home, we don't give teens good access to it, and we don't advertise it in our media. Other countries do, and they are rewarded with low rates of teen pregnancy and teen abortions. But, you say, making condoms available in school-based clinics would ‘give kids the wrong idea’. In fact, 5 recent research studies indicate that it doesn't.
Educating teenagers about contraception makes them more likely to use contraception when they begin having sex, but it doesn't lower the age at first intercourse.
Why? Probably because the decision where and with whom to become sexually active is a very complicated one, rooted in family, peers, religion, the media, and individual personality factors. But the decision whether to contracept or not is a very simple one: is it available? If so, Ill use it. If not, I’m still going to have sex, but I’m not going to go out of my way to get birth control.
Until Americans get over their hysteria about giving young people access to birth control, we will continue to have the highest teen pregnancy rates in the western world. It's really that simple.
Victor C. Strasburger, MD University of New Mexico School of Medicine
Fact: One million teens in the USA will become pregnant over the next twelve months. Ninety-five percent of those pregnancies are unintended. About one third will end in abortion; one third will end in spontaneous miscarriage; and one third will continue their pregnancy to term and keep their baby.
More than half of them are 17 years old or younger when they have their first pregnancy.
Approximately 40 percent of young women become pregnant before they reach 20 years old.
The United States of America has double the adolescent pregnancy and birth rates of any other industrialized country.
The poorer the young woman, the more likely she will become a mother.
Less than one-third of teens who have babies before the age of 18 finish high school.
Almost half of all teen mothers end up on welfare.
Less than 25 percent of births to teens occur within wedlock.
The birth rate for teens has been declining in recent years.
I know that there is a high teen pregnancy in the United State and in the State of Texas. But they are not just singling these girls out.
Anytime there a girl has a baby in the state of Texas who is 16 or under the hospital will call CPS to notify them. CPS will then come to the hospital and investigate how and why she is pregnant. If it was due to neglect full supervision on the parents behalf or if the girls parents was letting her live with her boy friend or there is a good chance that the teenage mother and the baby will be brought into care. CPS will do everything in their power to keep the tow together if it in the best interest of the mother and the child. If it was do to teenage rebellion they will work with the teen and her family to prevent it from happening again.
They are not singling these girls out this s how it is done. IF the girls had been going to the hospital to have their babies CPS would have been involved a long time ago.
To 5/03/2008 12:05 PM I am the wife that lives in Idaho and where I live is not Blackmore territory. I was not sent here by my husband, I came on my own accord. I was very sad when my husband went down there, but I could not support him in that decision. Thus my location.
I read Carolyn Jessop's book, and near the end she said Merril Jessop sent his family to the compound, but I didn't see Merril's family in those docs. Was that just a partial list?
Thanks, Hose- It made for very interesting reading.I have been trying to read all the posts back to the beginnings of this blog [a daunting task!! OTS's post, even then were long and rambling!]and many of the names are familiar from all the reading. Family and friends have been looking for something just like this, to find missing family and friends! I hope it brings some comfort to those seeking people. I realize it's a year old list, but anything can be of help when all is so secret! I also am interested in the term 'House of hiding' if anyone can explain that. A tad off topic question tho--who is tending the fields and caring for the place if most of the people are gone or hiding? In the pictures that pilot took most recently, the place is looking sorta brown and untended.
kli 6:56PM--thanks for mentioning that! I forgot to ask about Merril Jessop and family on my previous post. I did notice his name wasn't among the others. Since he is supposedly running the place [per previous posts]is he exempt from being counted? How about others that might be "missing" on the rolls? And who is caring for Warren Jeff's wives/children? Since the huge house, in the compound, is supposed to be his, I presume the wives and children all live there? [If all this is all on previous posts, I apologize, there are just tooooo many to read, at times.]
Perhaps I'm not doing the math too well but from what I can gather on the list not many of them were 16 when they started having children. And I don't see anyone on there that had a kid at 14 or 15.
And since at 16 your parents can sign for you to get married I don't know how this list helps the prosecution.
I don't have a problem with men having more than one wife. So long as everyone is of age according to the law of the land, go for it, dudes.
I read somewhere that the man "Neilson" with the 21 wives was in charge. To the Wife that made the choice to go to Idaho instead of the ranch, I hope your family is happily reunited. To the answer the question of jealousy, when you have been brought up in homes with Pural wifes it is the norm, adding wifes is expected celebrated. Age is not the only factor for adding wifes, a mans standing in the community is also a factor.
That which is held Holy is trashed, while the false love of this world removes innocent babes from loving mothers, to have them defiled and seduced by the hedonistic.
The Herodians rule again while Rachel weeps in Bethlehem, and unless Herodias can have someone's head on a charger they shall not rest.
Upon whose heads shall the travesties lie.
It is upon your oh Texas and your childrens.
A blot you shall hardly remove, a stain eternally upon your name and inhabitants, and a price to be exacted.
One of the reporters yesterday tried to talk to an exiting FLDS member in a 4 door 4X4 pickup at the gate. He would not speak to the reporter but the reporter noticed the entire back seat and pick-up bed were full of suit-cases. Also the pilot reported no activity at all at the compound and fewer vehicles. Is this the Exodus? Where would they go that the states would not be far behind them?
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name have cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them: I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The day soon cometh when all that opposeth God and exalt itself against Him, will be judged in the balance!!
From the Coming (Now) Crisis
Hence priests are doing so much, often unwittingly, to blind the eyes of the people, so that they shall not see the approaching crisis in its true character until the catastrophe is completed, and Great Babylon and all her lofty cities, great wealth, princely merchants, chief captains, and mighty sovereigns, are laid low in one general ruin. Oh ye great and strong nations! ye philosophers and religionists! ye spiritual mediums and ye revelators, sitting upon thrones over great nations! how can you fulfill the prophecies that are so clearly revealed, concerning the destructions of the last days! Ye perhaps marvel that the great men and governors over one hundred and twenty-seven provinces in ancient Babylon, with a brave monarch at their head, should have been such firm believers in the astrologers, magicians, and interpreters of dreams, in their days! But marvel not, for when the greater power of the like class of persons, under the direction of Satan, shall be brought to bear in your own day, the delusion will be so much stronger that Princes, Presidents, Governors, and chief Captains, will be constrained to bow to it. Their credulity will be taxed beyond the power of resistance. The workers of these mysterious and supernatural arts will bring to their aid both natural and supernatural causes that will challenge and defy disputation. The senses and judgment of men cannot withstand such imperative facts as will arrest their observations. For it cannot be denied that facts and truths will constitute such a measure of the ingredients of these mysterious and wonderful arts as to give them an irresistible strength of conviction to those who are unenlightened by the Spirit of God. And so far as facts and truth are mingled, it must also be acknowledged that God, the true and living Sovereign of Heaven and Earth, will contribute to produce the delusion. He has said that “He will send them strong delusions that they might believe a lie.” He gives his reason and apology for acting after this stranger mannerþbecause, knowing the truth, they do not love it unadulterated. And knowing God, they do not choose to glorify Him as God. Therefore their foolish hearts become darkened, and God suffers Satan to compound and mix up truth and error in such proportions as to be captivating and strongly delusive. As a snare, this composition will be ingeniously mixed and administered to all nations, by skillful and practiced hands.
If you haven't read or don't even know about the coming crisis, the by all means, go get it, especially the LDS
Wow - these FLDS men are serious chickens. Running and hiding, and hiding behind their wives' pioneer skirts. Impressive.
Thank you for reminding me about Warren Jeff's wives and children. It seems strange that Warren and Merril Jessop's families are absent from those rolls.
More and more truth comes out. The bed was a distraction, the reports of child brides being the norm and throughout the compound were false, they initial call was false.
Keep following the media and you will continue to be the zombie they want you to be. The real facts are coming out. The cps and state of texas is going to everything in its power to not look as bad as they should and the media can surely help in that area.
Sad day for american rights and the 400+ children that were literally ripped from their home.
Also, as I stated previously in another thread. This whole thing was caused by the one person with a big ole axe to grind. Flora Jessop. She convinced the authorities almost single handedly they needed to remove every single child.
Shame on you Flora. I know what you went through was probably a personal hell and you feel it's your obligation to save every child you can but there simply needs be evidence of wrongdoing, not just contrived stories.
Firstly, CPS cannot and so therefore will not release their evidence until the cases are taken to court. They must provide the defendants with the information, and THEY can release exactly what they want to the public and media. CPS CANNOT!! Therefore, they don't have the ability to tell the public all that they have, but there are strict rules about how something like this is handled. They have the "protect" the privacy of the children. The parents and their spokespersons are free to say whatever they want to the public. What I would like to see is the fathers/celestial husbands standing by all their wives, proclaiming that he wants his children back. Why haven't they done this?? Oh yeah, because it would be so creepy to see a 70+ year old man with brides that range from 18-and up(the younger ones are in custody, so they wouldn't be in these media events!)I don't care about polygomy, to each their own, but not to this cult!!
These records are incomplete or outdated. There are two major families missing. Some listed as living in Colorado City were at YFZ. A few women I recognize on the news are not listed. Some of the children in custody are from elsewhere, and have birth parents in other places that were not at R17 at tome of raid. The parents of those children are fearful to step forward. R17 has been moved on from.
Seriously, where are all the fathers and husbands? Why aren't they out there fighting for their children?
I'm tired of reading posts where statistics of teenage pregnancies, abortions and child abuse are posted regarding the children in the US that are not FLDS.
I read one post that said that there were 330,000 (or somewhere around there) teenagers in the US gave birth.....yes it is sad, but how many children total are in the US? I wish someone would post the PERCENTAGE of teengage girl's pregnancies rather than just a number. Either way....the MAJORITY of the children in the US are raised by parents that care. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of people that shouldn't even be allowed to have children because they don't take the time to care for them and guide them. For whatever reason, their children are NOT their priortiy.
For the posters saying things about the awful outside world that is not FLDS...HA! You believe we (the general US population) are judging the FLDS on rumors and speculation...is that not the exact same thing you're doing regarding the outside world? Do you believe you are learning about us properly from inside a locked compound where you only hear what others are saying about it? How about, like the amish, you let your kids use what you as parents taught them and let them go into the world and see if they would like to return to the FLDS and its lifestyle. And, if they found that they would like to be a vetrinarian or a social worker instead of a baby making machine and a fourth or fifth wife that you still love and accept them because YOU TAUGHT THEM that they should make good choices. That they have morals to live by that make them good people. That even though Joe blow down the street is doing drugs that your children HAVE THEIR OWN MINDS and YOUR WONDERFUL PARENTING that taught them to tell Joe Blow that no, they don't want to do drugs with him or anyone else that is doing drugs.
I have children. I love my children more than anything in the world. They are EDUCATED so they have CHOICES to decide ON THEIR OWN (not due to brainwashing or fear of losing family) how they want to live their lives. If I believed in one thing I would guide them as much as I could and show them why I believe it and if they decide to follow in my footsteps I would be proud. BUT, if they decide to take a different path at least since I educated them to make good choices and I am confident in my parenting, I know that they will make great choices even if they do not believe in everything I do. I will not banish them for choosing differently. I LOVE them unconditionally. They should be able to make their own choices in life.
Why not let them make their own choices? Why not show them what is on the outside and they can take the good things from it rather than being so afraid?
And to the poster above Hedonism is about pleasure...I guess I'm a hedonist since I have a pleasurable life revolving around the devotion to my children, the pleasure of watching them make a mistake and learning from it, the pleasure of seeing all the things they can learn and absorb, the pleasure of the love in our family and friends, the pleasure of feeling good that I am doing something to help others, the pleasure in seeing the difference I make by taking that extra minute to help one of my students so their day is better, the pleasure in seeing my kids play and have fun, the pleasure of teaching them about spirituality and how to help others because it makes us feel good inside, the pleasure of seeing the kids at the hospital when we drop toys off to them because they are stuck in the hospital for weeks because they are terminally ill......I don't mind being a hedonist seeing all these things. It seems to me that hedonism isn't a bad thing unless your dirty mind is basing it on sexual hedonism.
The FLDS are no different from anyone. They point the finger at the outside world yet cry when we do the same thing.
Also, has anyone notice that the FLDS websites don't say ANYTHING about ANYTHING? They show pictures of crying children and sad mothers. I could make a website about my family and say we are sad the FLDS thinks we are so bad and show pictures of my family crying too and I could say on a website that we want our children back if the FLDS came and took them away....but you know what, my husband would be out there stomping the pavement 24 hours a day seven days a week..at every courthouse and state official's office he could find. And he would be saying question me, poke me, torture me do anything to me so that I can prove to you that my children are important to me and I want them back and can't live without them. My husband WOULD NOT sit back from afar while I was out working so hard to get them back. He would be right by my side...where are the fathers?
The more posts I read where the FLDS are slamming other relgions and lifestyles the more I get sick...funny that they are sad that people criticize them, yet they are doing the EXACT same thing.
the parents of the canadian girl have come forward, they are keeping her idenity a secret to protect her. Apparently she was in Texas visiting her Grandmother. Why would they leave a place they put so much work into? Who else would have use for it? The roll was made up in the spring of 2007, Warren was in Jail at that time, there was no head of household to comprize a list, but wouldn't his family have been close to where he was in prison.
Native Texan, you say until the cases are tried? What cases are going to be tried? No charges have been filed against anyone. That's the most bizaar aspect of this case. They don't have to show the public the evidence but they will have ot show the court and thus far how much has been admitted under seal? The facts are slowly showing the media and Texas grossly over exagerated the child bride aspect, the bed in the church and the broken bones as well as the underage pregnancies.
We shall see how things progress. As far as the men standing by their ladies, I think we are seeing how important the ladies roll in the community really is. They aren't all mind controlled, sexually abused victims. Many are strong, smart and passionate women. They need to charge those who are known to have raped or abused, I think there were a total of 4 men who had underage wives on that outdated list. That's a start. Release these kids and their mothers. Build your case against the child abusers and let everone go forward. Stop messing with peoples lives who have committed no wrongdoing.
In the beginning before they called them selves FLDS and seven Profits ago, these people were just Mormans wanting to practice the Principal. They were not supposed to draw attention to themselves, but with each Profit adding new rules and this last one, the one that appointed himself, building a Temple out of limestone that is visible from outerspace. We have all heard of the tower of BABAL. -fax you are right, there are many very strong woman in the FLDS, but there are also those who are not strong enough to save themselves.
fax said: "As far as the men standing by their ladies, I think we are seeing how important the ladies roll in the community really is"
Nice try, trying to spin that into something positive. Everyone knows it's crap though. If you read any of the books out by women who escaped this cult, the brainwashing is extensive and severe. The fact that the men have disappeared and aren't facing the situation makes them look like what they are: spiritually misguided sexual predators.
Nice try, trying to spin that into something positive. Everyone knows it's crap though. If you read any of the books out by women who escaped this cult, the brainwashing is extensive and severe. The fact that the men have disappeared and aren't facing the situation makes them look like what they are: spiritually misguided sexual predators.
Looks to me, these women wrote books only to sell books. From what I have seen of these books the exageration ranks right up there with the State of Texico
Let's keep our perspective here. Authorities entered YFZ only a month ago. This is not "fast food" justice.
Their cases will be presented to a closed courtrooom for either a judge or jury to decide upon. Texas has a responsibility to the children and their parents - not the court of public opinion.
As for the FLDS ladies that we all saw on television, I had the opposite impression. They spoke in very monotone voices and only answered questions posed - no elaborating whatsoever. My impression was that they had been trained to speak when spoken to.
Yeah, you're right. Has it ever occurred to you that these women didn't realize how RIDICULOUS their lives were until they gained some healthy perspective?
If even half of what they said was true, they deserve every penny they make on those book sales.
This is the work of God, and woe! be unto us if we do not preach the Gospel! Woe! be unto us if we relinquish or attempt to sell or barter or compromise one of the eternal principles that have been sent down from the heavens and which we have to carry to the ends of the earth! But if we are faithful to our mission and calling, if we stand firm and true, and regard God rather than man, God shall fight our battles. Everything that seems to be against us will be turned for our good. The clouds that overshadow us from time to time will part and roll away, and the glorious sun of prosperity will shine upon us. If we are true and faithful God Almighty will overrule all things for our good, and bring us off more than conquerors. And every nation and people and institution and society that fight against Zion shall become like the dream of a night vision-it will pass away; and those men that fight against this work will be, as the prophet said, "Even as when a hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite." So it will be with all who fight against this work and try to overthrow it. Not because we are mightier than anybody else, not because we are so numerous, not because we are learned, not because we are wealthy, but because God Almighty has established this work, and He will cause it to prevail. I bear my testimony that I know this to be true.
The list shows a significant number of underage girls in sexual relationships with adult married men -- and nobody in the community reported this to the authorities. Shameful.
If FLDS men want to take WILLING ADULT women as their concubines, so be it, but leave the children alone.
We FLDs are not always right, nor did Brother Joseph reveal everything correct.
All Faith based in a God of goodness will assist us to move closer to God, but all faith not based in absolute truth will eventualy be done away with.
I could make mention of a few points that are technically incorrect from Brother Josephs words, but I fear that we are too addicted to our comfort zones and do not love truth sufficiently, so I will refrain.
could make mention of a few points that are technically incorrect from Brother Josephs words, but I fear that we are too addicted to our comfort zones and do not love truth sufficiently, so I will refrain.
5/07/2008 1:32 AM
----------------------------- through what source do you learn that "Brother Joseph's words were incorrect"?
Yes, I was living in Short Creek and I do know most of the "lost boys"
Yes, they all left voluntarily so they wouldn't have to live up to the rules in their homes (party, booze), or some were asked out for not living up to the rules of their homes. (Most over 18). None of the minor boys were "dropped off". Their parents did seek for them when they took off, but the older boys (if they were FLDS they would be called Adult Men) would cover for them when their parents came looking. They each have their own story, but they all left more than willingly. Resources? Sorry, that made me laugh. Some of these guys were hard workers, others freeloaders. They are in this picture for one reason, and that is to get money from Dan Fischer.
The "Lost Boy's" term and the "dropped off" stories came from Shem Fischer and his brother Dan Fischer. Dan left the church over a decade ago, and was rather bitter but not until Shem came running to him claiming to having been unjustly fired from his job (his resignation letter said otherwise), did he decide to join the crusade. They filed four lawsuits at the same time, and this was one of them. After the big media campaign and the lawsuits, the underage boys now had a place to hide behind to avoid going home. Just say "I'm a lost boy" Instead of making them go home, the crusaders would "protect" them from the polygamists.
Funny, "Lost Boy" is an insult to most of them now.
I know several fellows who had left the church and came back a few years later, but it depends on how they "sowed their oats". It's a whole lot easier just to stay.
Many shall come from the east and from the west, and from the north and from the south, and shall sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of God;" while others who supposed themselves to be the children of the Kingdom" will be "thrust out." And I am afraid that a great many of our good Christian friends who are so terribly shocked about this feature of our faith, when they get to the door and look in and see Abraham and Sarah and Hagar and Keturah, and those concubines given of the Lord to Abraham-when they see them in the eternal kingdom they will want to turn away and go to more congenial company, which they are at perfect liberty to do. If Abraham was on the earth to-day, these same good people would put him in the penitentiary, and yet they call Abraham "the father of the faithful, the friend of God," and want to go to his bosom when they die! If Jacob were here with his four wives, through whom he "did build the house of Israel," the names of whose twelve sons are to be inscribed upon the gates of the holy city, the New Jerusalem, that is to come down from God out of heaven like a bride adorned for her husband-I say if Jacob were on the earth to-day, they would put him in jail! Well, this is the consistency of some people who profess to believe in the Bible. Men come here to try and sell the Latter-day Saints the Bible. Why, bless your souls, there are no people on the earth who believe as much in the Bible as the "Mormons." We believe in the Old and New Testament, King James' translation. It was through our belief in that record that most of us became Latter-day Saints; for, being familiar with the Bible, when the servants of God came with the Gospel we found it was the same as laid down that sacred record, and that induced us to embrace the faith that is commonly called "Mormonism."
Abraham took Hagar to 'wife' because Sarah feared he would never have a son to fulfill God's plan for him. He took Keturah after Sarah's death. Polygyny (many woman) is Biblecal, when the Isralites were in the desert God gave them rules on whom a man could have sexual relations with. One was that a man was not to have both a Mother and her daughter or granddaughter. A daughter of his Father or Mother. His Father's Sister or his Mothers Sister. Now one whould clue in that would mean your Bothers daughter or Sister daugter as well. In the New Testament Jesus talked about divorce, one could interpert that to mean that only a man only comittes adultery when he has sexual relations with a woman whos husband is living. Even David put Bathseba's husband in the front of the troups so he would get killed and then David could take her to wife. But this whole thing is not about Polygamy it is about having sexual relations with someone who is too young to consent. And when you People learn that even an atheist can know every word of the BIBLE and not be SAVED.
Whenever a person says "all", they are most always lying. Notice I didn't say "always", but "most always".
Maybe you might check with Roger Hoole. You might find a few minors kicked out with the FLDS getting money on their destroyed credit. What a den of thieves!
There is not one underage marriage in The FLDS Raid. Its another Hoax again. Not one girl is underage. They are extremely desperate so they make up another lie ,broken bones and molestation. I feel sorry for the the CPS. What are they going to do now PLANT DRUGS. THEY BETTER GIVE THOSE CHILDREN BACK TO THEIR MOTHERS NOW. God is watching from a distance.
Is that a sincere question? The post was sincere. If one has love in their hearts, they want the best for their people and all people. If one has sought to know God, to really understand God, and they come/bring within themselves the capacity to accept and live or live the highest truths available, as I did, then one can be led to understand more than we had. That I have done, God led me.
If you have a real question I am pleased to respond, but, how a question is asked determines how it is answered. If you do not believe in a given question, (that it is a question)then you are hardly ready for an answer different than what you presently believe.
So what real question do ytou have in your heart about God and our doctrine, ask me that.
But I am not on here to be frivolous, and will not participate in time wasting.
Not one minor was kicked out. Not one boy was ever lost. This story of 400 boys was made up.. I have 3 sons that live in Colorado City and they are still living with me. What about the 1200 boys that are not lost. If a boy ever left it was because he chose to and nothing else. Flora mae jessop started this whole thing. I have 6 daughters that are over 18 and they are still not married. This underage stuff is just crap. It is a drive to sell anti polygamous litature,to drive the media and to sell news. Shame on all of you. Quit quoting Flora and Carolyn you would make more money if you told the truth. If you want to make money just be truthful. Stay away from flora the stripper and carolyn the modern day Jezebel. My family is in the raid. BRING THOSE CHILDREN HOME AND I MEAN IT NOW!!!!
If polygamists believe Joseph Smith to be a prophet and that he received a revelation regarding the practice of polygamy, why then do they not adhere to the 12th Article of Faith, also from Joseph Smith?
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
Just a Question. Since Kings,presidents rulers and magistrates,are elected by the people to uphold the law. They are there for us help us uphold the law. Since they are elected by popular vote, in other words who ever has the most votes wins the election. That does not mean that they can break the law. They must uphold the Supreme Law of the Land. If they don't they will be proscuted to the full extent of the law. You noticed that it said sustaining the LAW!!If laws are passed that persecute and drive the inocent then What? Congress shall make no laws in the establishment of religion. They who pass these laws are now breaking the laws. We will then be subject to officials that uphold the laws. Not wicked officials. Joseph Smith said there was one thing that was not right and that was if elected officials did not abide by the laws that they would be punished. They should all be rounded up and prosecuted for all of this.
"Shame on all of you. Quit quoting Flora and Carolyn you would make more money if you told the truth. If you want to make money just be truthful. Stay away from flora the stripper and carolyn the modern day Jezebel. My family is in the raid. BRING THOSE CHILDREN HOME AND I MEAN IT NOW!!!! -- Anom 3:02
if true what you say then those two are better witches than your prophet a prophet sounds to me your battle is not with texas but rather Satan himself ...take it up with him
otherwise, if what those two say is true and you want those kids back? then go to court and wait your turn no different than the parents of the other 32,0000 fostered kids in texas that screwed up just like you
Where any written statues are found to contradict truth, justice and righteousness, they are to be ignored and substituted with what is true, righteous and dictated by the spirit justice.
I do not need God or a prophetic spirit to tell me this. Do you?
First of all, I think we can answer the question that's been on everyone's mind: where are all the FLDS men?
SITTING AT THEIR COMPUTERS POSTING ON THIS THREAD.
Secondly, thank you to whomever is posting all the mormonism propaganda.
Now tell me the part about the Celestial Kingdom and how all the men are getting their own planets on which they get multiple wives who will remain eternally pregnant in order to populate their planet?
SWEET. Now how do you keep the ladies from finding out the...."ending"?
Women of the FLDS, you believe blindly in your doctrine and I share your mourning. I know you cannot shed true tears, yet why do you shed tears to the public which are not true. You are not suppose to show emotion, you deny your children toys and things which as children they need to evolve. Yes, it was dictated by a male prophet to obey blindly, what options do you have? You were never shown any options other than "To The Battering". It is comforting having someone else make choices for you, but remember you have the capacity to make choices too. There have been too many prophets over the centuries, none have proved truthful, they have all deceived. The true Grail is in your heart, look within.
After reading the Bishop's Family records I am just curious to know, Why are the authorities not arresting these older men that without a fact are having SEX with children? If it was a document seized in a drug-raid or any other type of raid where a document that was hand written indicated sex with a minor they would be apprehended and charged. And the house of hiding "hiding" is obviously the sucluded area he bought through Dale for his get away. There is obviously alot more that Warren Jeffs had going on, more then his followers could ever imagine. He should be ashamed of himself along with the "Men and Women" that were obviously religiously prostituting their children.
First of all, you think all the elected officials should be "rounded up and prosecuted for all this"? How is your thinking any different than that which you criticize?
Secondly, the elected officials are trying to protect the innocent women and children, who are considered citizens (equal to men) in the eyes of the law. I'm sure many of these men haven't actually committed any of the crimes involving underaged girls, but shame on them for looking the other way. There's an expression that goes something like this: show me your friends and I'll tell you who you are.
Everyone has been wondering where all the hubands and fathers of YFZ have gone. I think I know: sitting at computers posting on this thread.
If everyone who wrote a book about their experience in the FLDS is lying... then why doesn't a current member write a book about what its really like!!! Tell us about it!
That will never happen. I don't think it just happens that everyone is making up these stories. And so what if they wrote their books to make money... why else do people write books??? That doesnt mean they are lying!
I agree with 3:48 anon. I'd like to read a book written by someone from within who's had a good experience.
Also, how many of you on the inside of the FLDS have actually read their books? It stands to reason that if you're forbidden to have contact with those who've fled, then you're probably discouraged from rushing out to buy their books. Even if you'd take the time to read them, you wouldn't understand how their stories sound to the rest of us. It's all about perspective.
I give the "apostates" lots of credit for writing about their experiences. Their unique perspective of having been on both sides of the fence makes the books worthwhile to a lot of people.
If even a portion of what they have written about is true, they deserve to make money on their books - piles of it.
I suspect that some of the men will become too holy to fight for their family and will leave their wife to fight custody alone. After all, they have already left family in CC and Hildale while they started over with a young girl or two. The women won't be able to join their "holy" husbands in hiding until they are worthy enough for the Lord to fight their battles and get the women back.
To Anonymous 5/07/2008 4:02 PM "Joseph Smith said there was one thing that was not right and that was if elected officials did not abide by the laws that they would be punished. They should all be rounded up and prosecuted for all of this."
First of all, please give this reference of what Joseph Smith said.
Yes, I agree, if someone breaks the law, CPS or others, they should be prosecuted.
To the father living in Colorado City now, you say "This underage stuff is just crap. It is a drive to sell anti polygamous litature,to drive the media and to sell news. Shame on all of you."
So, the Bishops Records showing 16 year old wifes is all made up to make who the money?
You all make Flora Jessop out to be some kind of super hero/villian, I always picture like cat woman. Why do you fear her? The new Eldorado Succuss is out, front page news is that the trials start on the 19th with the cases being grouped by Mothers.
Those FLDS men. What a bunch of cowards. Sickening we haven't seen them anywhere. Absolutely disgusting. How could any woman follow the rules of such cowardly men? How could any woman believe that such losers would be worthy of touching even one of them? NEVER would I let a man that didn't fight for his children touch me with a ten, fifteen or even hundred foot pole. They should be ashamed.
FLDS women, get the heck out of there. You are stronger than any of those men. Quit letting them run your lives. Start running theirs.
Obviously they can't do the job. OBVIOUSLY the "prophet" is not professing the right messages from god.
Again, all I can say is disugsting cowardly men. What a shame.
Has it ever occurred to you that these women didn't realize how RIDICULOUS their lives were until they gained some healthy perspective?
Seeing that there are people who can successfully raise very large families has given me perspective.
Many of my female friends would love to have more than one or two children but can't afford it. It's a lot easier for the FLDS women to run away and work at Wal-Mart and live in a small apartment than it is for a "liberated" woman on the outside to have many children and live in a safe crime free environment.
It's easy to criticize a woman for being in a relationship in which she has to share her man with other women, but there are plenty of women on "the outside" with no men in their lives at all and some choose to bring babies into this world without any marital partner.
50% of US marriages end in divorce and many of those that don't end up in divorce are loveless. Stop acting as those women are brainwashed for not choosing your feminist utopia.
The desire to have a baby is one of the most basic of all animal instincts, no amount of public scoffing and government re-education classes is going to change this.
Sometimes the best thing to say; is to say nothing at all. A man's true strength can be shown by the ability to go against his desires to speak up and just remain silent.
OR Is it just; It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
From an outsiders views; The LDS Church has been going to great lengths to distance themselves from any group that lives a Plural Marriage lifestyle. These same people will be clamoring all over each other to accept this lifestyle once the supreme court rules that polygamy is equally acceptable to same-sex marriages, Polyamory, or single and multiple common-law relationships. The original founders of the Short Creek group always considered themselves to be true LDS and not a part of those that chose "political correctness" over their beliefs. The FLDS is considered by many of these people to have split from these long held beliefs. The FLDS sees it as just the reverse. These are only some of my thoughts about these religions. Can I be far off? Then correct me you wouldn't be the first. I know a lot of LDS will not like my comments, but I think once legalized they would again embrace it.
"Stop acting as those women are brainwashed for not choosing your feminist utopia."
I'm not a feminist and I think having lots and lots of babies is wonderful.
But this polygamist sect is abusive. These women are taught FROM BIRTH that they have no choice - that they will go to hell if they leave.
How is that liberating? It's brainwashing and slavery. Not to mention all of it is based on lies. Joseph Smith was a liar (book of Abraham) and was driven by lust for girls (14 year old wife, lots of wives married to other men, etc).
This whole thing is just horrendous. These women are victims from birth.
I think that if God really believed in polygamy, he would have started the story with Adam and Eve... and Sarah and Ruth and Mary and Rebecca. But he didn't. :)
7:08 - "Obviously you're an FLDS man. Anyone who has children and loves them as they should would NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER say nothing at all after their kids are taken away from them. WHAT A JOKE!!!!! "
Obviously you're very wrong. Not and never been FLDS. What I see here is a group of men that have been victimized by their own religious leaders, remaining silent to protect those same leaders and being of the opinion that the State of Texas is wrong and will reunite their families. By speaking out they know they risk being like so many FLDS men that have had their families ripped apart by the same men they claim as their spiritual leaders. This is not going to change until more of Warren Jeffs' henchmen join him, and the men that are also victims be given the chance to be known as victims. I would guess "the meek shall inherit--"
Is there a list of the Men who were sent away by the Prophet from the children they Fathered? I think these men should stand together in the court, and demand their rights.
This whole past few coments are rediculas. Those not in the FLDS if you dont like the thought of having more then one woman to a household, not to be mean but so what. Its not your lifestyle.
if your going to argue and be angry it should not be about these women. a 16 yr old might not no the differance but an adult woman knows that theres an outside world and could leave if she choose to. Even if she was born into the lifestyle. But because she/they chooses not to leave does not mean that shes an idiot, or man controled. and lets face it i think that most women now days would love to be able to have a dozen children and have the luxary of being able to stay at home with them until there older atleast instead of working, but cant. Not to mention be able to raise our kids with out tv, violent video games etc.
If your going to argue about something then argue and prove your point about the children being married off and the possible abuse with age diffeances. and fight for the children not the women, because you dont believe in their choice to this type of marriage,unless they are asking for help. which happens to be non of your business, its their choice as adults just as it is yours for you to choose your own lifestyle,
As far as the children are concerned. I think that unless the gov't is planning on totaly out-lawing this type of lifestyle in the whole US making it illiegal they should put these children back home immediatly.
Children are born everyday in these communities its not right to take these babies from there mothers if they are going to allow them to continue anyway it doesnt make sence. Im sure that the Texas camp isnt the only one having underage marriages. Unless they plan on taking every newborn away from these mothers when there born in ALL of the camps, they need to return them home.
They need to look at them as a whole and all at once or not at all. its pointless.
I was totally brainwashed! I was brainwashed starting as a teenaged girl that I should work outside the home and anything less meant that I was ignorant, a doormat to some man or just a wack-job religious nut. I was brainwashed to think that if I didn't go out and earn a paycheck nobody would consider me "equal". I was brainswashed to believe the only kind of man who would want me if I didn't have "earning power" would be some domineering monster who would treat me poorly.
I felt like I had it made when I graduated from high school and then completed a tech school making me cutting edge with new computer knowledge. My first clue that maybe all of this was B.S. came when the job placement program from the tech school refered the graduating females to 'administrative support' positions while the sole man in the program was sent to interview for a managerial position. This was in 1990's well after womens lib. He wasn't even in the top 5 of the class but he was ushered into the best and highest paying job available.
Then I got married and soon discovered that some men will dominate their women over money as easily as they will over cooking, cleaning and producing babies. I commuted an hour each way and worked 40 hours a week so my husband could have a house in the area he liked, a boat, snow machines, a new shiny truck, etc. I did not want these things but there they were in the driveway with no way to pay for them without the income I brought home. I thought earning my own money would make me equal!!! I guess that was B.S. too.
I had also been brainwashed that once I had my education and career I'd be set to have the kids I'd wanted all along and then I would "have it all". Enter three beautiful little angels. Broke my heart to leave them with someone else to enjoy while I drove away to have my "career". That turned out to be B.S. too because I could give a rip about how many reports I wrote, what clients I landed or how much money the company made during those years but it breaks my heart that I missed all that time of my kids' early years. I would go back and trade my career for that lost time with my kids in a NY second.
I quickly tired of bankrolling toys for a husband who had no regard for the anguish I felt leaving my kids in daycare to earn the money to pay for all his extravegances. Again I found out that my education, my career, etc. did not make me equal - that was only B.S. I had been brainwashed to believe. Three kids to raise and the law says their father only has to contribute a small percentage of his income to support them regardless of what their actual needs are. I, on the other hand, must provide for all their needs even it takes 100% of my income or requires me to work 2 jobs (which I did after the divorce).
I may sound bitter but there are millions of women just like me who believed the "brainwashing" we received thanks to the womens libbers. Thanks to that brainwashing I was convinced that wanting nothing more than to be a wife and mother made me ignorant, weak and vulnerable. Thanks to that brainwashing I was reduced to no more than an ATM machine.
The brainwashing continues by pointing to these FLDS women who want nothing more than to be mothers and wives and calling them weak, pathetic, etc. I guess that must really rankle you libbers who are so certain your way is the right way. Now that I'm older I wonder why you don't teach that the right way is for women to follow their own hearts desire whatever it might be? Even if that desire is so aweful to your own senses as something like I want to marry and have a house full of children?
Anything other than that is brainwashing regardless of which path you're pushing.
I was totally brainwashed! I was brainwashed starting as a teenaged girl that I should work outside the home and anything less meant that I was ignorant, a doormat to some man or just a wack-job religious nut. I was brainwashed to think that if I didn't go out and earn a paycheck nobody would consider me "equal". I was brainswashed to believe the only kind of man who would want me if I didn't have "earning power" would be some domineering monster who would treat me poorly.
I felt like I had it made when I graduated from high school and then completed a tech school making me cutting edge with new computer knowledge. My first clue that maybe all of this was B.S. came when the job placement program from the tech school refered the graduating females to 'administrative support' positions while the sole man in the program was sent to interview for a managerial position. This was in 1990's well after womens lib. He wasn't even in the top 5 of the class but he was ushered into the best and highest paying job available.
Then I got married and soon discovered that some men will dominate their women over money as easily as they will over cooking, cleaning and producing babies. I commuted an hour each way and worked 40 hours a week so my husband could have a house in the area he liked, a boat, snow machines, a new shiny truck, etc. I did not want these things but there they were in the driveway with no way to pay for them without the income I brought home. I thought earning my own money would make me equal!!! I guess that was B.S. too.
I had also been brainwashed that once I had my education and career I'd be set to have the kids I'd wanted all along and then I would "have it all". Enter three beautiful little angels. Broke my heart to leave them with someone else to enjoy while I drove away to have my "career". That turned out to be B.S. too because I could give a rip about how many reports I wrote, what clients I landed or how much money the company made during those years but it breaks my heart that I missed all that time of my kids' early years. I would go back and trade my career for that lost time with my kids in a NY second.
I quickly tired of bankrolling toys for a husband who had no regard for the anguish I felt leaving my kids in daycare to earn the money to pay for all his extravegances. Again I found out that my education, my career, etc. did not make me equal - that was only B.S. I had been brainwashed to believe. Three kids to raise and the law says their father only has to contribute a small percentage of his income to support them regardless of what their actual needs are. I, on the other hand, must provide for all their needs even it takes 100% of my income or requires me to work 2 jobs (which I did after the divorce).
I may sound bitter but there are millions of women just like me who believed the "brainwashing" we received thanks to the womens libbers. Thanks to that brainwashing I was convinced that wanting nothing more than to be a wife and mother made me ignorant, weak and vulnerable. Thanks to that brainwashing I was reduced to no more than an ATM machine.
The brainwashing continues by pointing to these FLDS women who want nothing more than to be mothers and wives and calling them weak, pathetic, etc. I guess that must really rankle you libbers who are so certain your way is the right way. Now that I'm older I wonder why you don't teach that the right way is for women to follow their own hearts desire whatever it might be? Even if that desire is so aweful to your own senses as something like I want to marry and have a house full of children?
Anything other than that is brainwashing regardless of which path you're pushing.
The FLDS lifestyle HAS been outlawed in the entire US - both the polygamy and the underaged marriage. Where have you been?
Anon 11:51,
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE HYPOCRISY.
I was the one who first used the word "ridiculous" to describe that prison camp you seem to think of as utopia. You're way off - I'm not a feminist nor do I scoff at the desire to have a baby. I'm a stay at home mother of 3 who is considering having a 4th.
Another thing, I think it's humorous when you folks bring up the divorce stats in our country. Heck, your women have been "reassigned" and bartered so often your children don't even know who their biological parents are. From where I sit, it's a community that lacks any sense of commitment to one another. For example, WHERE ARE YOUR "MEN"?? I just think it's awfully bold of you to go there at this point.
I feel very thankful to have a family that knows who their biological mother is (me) AND knows who their biological father is. My husband loves ME for ME. I am 35 years old and he hasn't run off to get a younger sisterwife for "us". Believe me, honey, it's not in the cards. I am more than enough woman for him.
Everyone knows this ordeal is about religon!! Otherwise they would have only investigated the call they allegedlly got. I really upsets me that this is happening to these people. I dont understand their religon, but thats ok. People have the right to choose!
The problem is that these women used to be children (14-16 years old) and were married off. It's a little late to "save" these gals who are in marriages with several children - and it's sad. You know as well as I do that underage marriage within the FLDS is now fairly common-place too. I mean, why not? It's not like as a young FLDS lady the leadership is going to make sure you get a good education. Heck, that would give you a few choices and you may not choose to stick around and find out who the prophet "chose" for you.
I don't think you can genuinely know what you want out of life in your teens. You may THINK you know what you want, but time and maturity reveal a lot.
I've read a few of your other posts and I enjoy hearing your perspective. You're FLDS, aren't you?
You oversimplify and you're fooling yourself if you think these women are just moms who want to stay at home with their kids. That's not what this is about.
In the twin cities, many of the wives left their children with other sisterwives while they worked to contribute to the family income. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the women on the ranch worked at the dairy or other places during the day while their children were in others' care.
Also bear in mind that their leader took the liberty to "rearrange" the families as he saw fit. For example, if the husband wasn't "holy enough", he was asked to leave his family and community and not to contact them. The wives and children were then split up and given to different, more "worthy" men. These men then had every right and privilege with them that their husbands had only the day before. Can you imagine what the children were thinking and feeling?
This is a human rights issue.
If you're going to stand up for the women and the community at large, at least know your stuff.
If someone CHOOSES to be a stay at home mom more power to them. But, if someone is FORCED to be a mom because they don't have options because their PARENTS did not make sure they were properly educated then that is terribly wrong.
To the poster that keeps saying these women are brainwashed...if you were brainwashed and you had a child and then abusive things were happening to them, would you just sit and let it happen knowing how miserable and unhappy you were in the situation?
I was abused as a child (sexually by a relative) and grew up with it happening for many many years. Almost my whole entire childhood, but if you think that I would allow my child the same misfortune that I had then you are terribly wrong. You better believe that that will NEVER EVER happen to my child because I was brainwashed to believe that sexual abuse is ok.
Everyone has a gut feeling. I knew as I grew up more and more that even though I was told one thing my gut feelings told me otherwise.
(bare with me this is a bit long but when you put in the fem movement coments on here it upsets me)
I dont condem anyone on their lifestyle like us everyone should have a choice as to how they choose to live there lives, as long as it doenst hurt children.
BUT as i have stated in previous post's i do not agree with the underage marriages and i have also said that I dont believe that any of these girls should be getting married until they are educated and able to make decision that are right for them.
I would think that if they came to their communities educated and had marriages of their own choosing that it would make a stronger healthier communtity and marriage and children, so i think that its a shame that it isnt that way.
After all if they are all raised from birth to be ritious then they should all be worthy of a good, healthy loving marriage even if their husbands are in their 20s not 50s.
as for the women that are allready married, im all pro for women and helping women dont get me wrong. however, when you have women that have been raised this way since birth like it or not its there normal life, as is yours to you.
So unless the govt is going to up heave this whole life style around the whole US whats being done in Tx is pointless, because if there is abuse going on then it will continue as more children are born, they need to return the children to their parents or atleast give the mothers a place to be with their children until this is solved before shoving them off into foster care, with the hopes that they will not want to return.
I see this as something thats not going to turn out good for these kids. Especially the older ones, they are being put in foster care, they are being mixed in with our kids, being shown a totaly differant life style which is ok for us, but i dont think for them.
BUT if they are or when they are returned how are they going to be? are they going to have changed so much that they wont be accepted back or that the boys will be pushed out when there 17 or 18 because of this, how many kids will commit suicide or have emotional problems even in their own communites once their returned because they no longer feel that they have a home in their society or out of it because they've changed so much.
As for the women, we all have a right to choose for ourselves. Now to say that they dont leave because they are ignorant is rediculas..
They all no about the outside world, they know especially now that they have a way out if they choose to and that they can leave w/there children if there not happy, and if i read right some have left, but to sit here and call them ignorant or stupid for making there own choices is wrong. Just because it wouldnt be your choice doenst mean it wouldnt be theirs.
I'm not going to sit here on a high horse (like some of you seem to be) and say that they are wrong in staying because who am i to judge another womens decision when ive made plenty of mistakes of my own, and im not FLDS. We make them, we grow as an adult as they do, we learn and choose wiser decisions next time, if thats for them to stay they stay, if its to leave they leave.
I do think that we have been taking the real issue of protecting the children onto the issue of their marriages. I could care less how many women these men have as long as their (ie women) are happy with this and there not married off when there children themselves. and lets be honest here ladies, how many of you could care less if you get it once a month? our bodies are bred to say no, so we arent popping kids out like rabbits, and theres are ready for yes yes yes so when we are ready, they can go at a dimes notice. So for them to have more then one wife, if i didnt have to put up with that everynight i might consider it to lol.
For underage marriages -unfortunatly this seems to be the norm and maybe after this the abuse that has occured in some of these homes (which it has because there were what 31 girls under 17 either pregant or had allready had babies?) wont again happen after this.
I just think that its a shame that this has to happen and that there are so many bad points to living like this, because if there were more choices for these women (and the boys), to atleast finish high school and to be able to choose for themselves on their marriages it could be a better place and they'd probely have more members coming to them.
Im going to get alot of crap on this from the fem's but i really dont care --> because frankly i think that our society in itself is pretty ****** up.
We have children now that are killing each other in schools, drugs (not just in inner cities anymore), gang violance between our kids, and the list goes on and on, and all of this i put on the parents, because we no longer raise our children properly by the mothers staying at home. Our children dont know the differance from right and wrong, and with the violance that they experience with tv and videogames they arent sensitized to this anymore. They dont see anything wrong with 8 girls ganging up on a single girl.
We have children growing up in day care centers not being raised by their mothers, we have a role reversal of boys growing up now expecting the women to take care of them (work wise). I dont think that i have ever seen more dead beat dads ever, because they dont want to work.
Now if we want to talk about child abuse it goes both ways in their community and ours.
and I think that the majority of the problem with kids now on our part is because we as mothers are no longer at home.
I think that there are more women out there that would like to be able to stay at home but there families cant afford it now because of the fem movement that have been going on in the past and now. We have made our society and incomes depend not only on the mans job but ours as well.
Ladies sorry but we've somewhat messed up our society with this fem crap. Granted we have more work opertunties and jobs but we still dont have equal pay, equal anything in the work place unless we put out or show cleavage, and now our children are being raised by everyone but us.
and talk about child abuse, how many of you/our children are being abused by people in day care centers, and by babysitters? How does that rate you as a mother when you take the chance of putting your children in these places when you know that they are at a higher risk of being shoved in a crib all day with no stimulation, having their limbs yanked and pulled on as their dragged around, which i have witnessed peronally from a friend that manages a center, who has to fire an avg. of 1 caretaker a month because of child abuse & arms being pulled out of their sockets from yanking.
at what exactly and to which coment/times are you talking about since your posting as anonymous. I think that if you want good responses you should atleast post with some type of name so we know to whom we are talking to as does everyone else.
right as in how? to underage marriages? I do not agree, so you might be right on that topic, but then again i dont no to which coment that your replying about.
Do i agree that these women have been brought up in a way that might not be right, and they have no options or choices, yes i do, but theres nothing that can be done about it unless again the govt interveens with THEM ALL.
There were what over 400 children removed from this compound, are u willing to have THOUSANDS taken from their mothers on your conscience, for YOUR believes?
Pedophiles and abuse of age marriage. yes and yes, but not all. But then again we have pedophiles in our own society dont we? we have children being molested in our own society, as it will happen in any type of community. If your neighbor gets convicted as a pedophile does that mean you are one to? and your children should be removed also? No.
The only thing that can be done is hope that this will stop any future underage marriages so that the women may have futures and choices (if they wish it to be). but if they dont respect their choice and stop throwing stones.
Annie long winded responses often don't get read. If everyone would have stated their correct name, kept that same name, and each mother kept her brood together and kept all their identity bands in place then the Judge would have known whom everyone was and allowed them to go to their own homes. Their are many Polygamists out there in the US and Canada, it isn't something the FLDS came up with... When God created Man (male and female)he blessed them and told them to go out and multiply and replenish the Earth. 2x2 is 4 I did my part. Dianna
It would be great if there was a blog that non polygamists could ask polygamists questions about their beliefs and lifestyles, in a civilized, respectful manner, without all the name calling and prejudice. There is much misunderstanding on both sides of the fence.
I think its funny that even those not FLDS get jumped on when voicing an opinion that isnt feminist or an opinion that is not with someone else's
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Annie long winded responses often don't get read.5/12/2008 8:59 AM
- neither do short and stupid ones, or ones with biased attitudes. and im sick of people cutting on these women because they dont share there views.
a real pro-woman as some of you seem to think you are, will listen to these women, feel their pain their joys and their fears about their children and whats going on in their lives right now with their children, they'll LISTEN and show then another view with out pushing it down their throats THEN let them make up their own minds and then not condom them for their own choices. whether it be staying or leaving there men and lifestyle.
The fact is this is about these children not the marriage style nor your opinion on it. If you have questions then ask them, if you come to learn but then come w/a closed mind to tell these women to give up their lifestyle as adults (Im not referancing the children here) then shut up and keep your opinions to yourself, and listn for a change.
I think its funny that even those not FLDS get jumped on when voicing an opinion that isnt feminist or an opinion that is not with someone else's
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Annie long winded responses often don't get read.5/12/2008 8:59 AM
- neither do short and stupid ones, or ones with biased attitudes. and im sick of people cutting on these women because they dont share there views.
a real pro-woman as some of you seem to think you are, will listen to these women, feel their pain their joys and their fears about their children and whats going on in their lives right now with their children, they'll LISTEN and show then another view with out pushing it down their throats THEN let them make up their own minds and then not condom them for their own choices. whether it be staying or leaving there men and lifestyle.
The fact is this is about these children not the marriage style nor your opinion on it. If you have questions then ask them, if you come to learn but then come w/a closed mind to tell these women to give up their lifestyle as adults (Im not referancing the children here) then shut up and keep your opinions to yourself, and listn for a change.
Smartest coment that ive read all day on here. --> in a civilized, respectful manner, without all the name calling and prejudice. There is much misunderstanding on both sides of the fence.
The claim that these women must be brainwashed or if they had acces to the outside world they would not choose to stay in that lifestyle is wrong.
As I read about the women I find evidence that discredits the claim they are kept from having knowledge of or contact with the 'outside' world. To the contrary I noticed that they had cell phones and knew how to use them proficiently to take photos and video as well as make phone calls. If they had not had access to those phones before and the men had only given them the phones at the time of the raid so they could coach them what to say how would they be so proficient in their use so quickly?
They know how to use computers to access the internet and participate in blogs. They have put up a website of their own to tell their side of the story. How would they be able to do any of this if they'd never been allowed to have access to the internet before?
They know how to drive and get themselves around. What would be the point of teaching the women to drive if they weren't going to be allowed to drive anywhere?
Use your eyes and your brains to really look at all the information coming from this. Not just the intended message of the media but between the lines to the other information that is there if you just pay attention.
The evidence I see points to the women being intelligent and not only aware of but also having had access to the outside world.
People can't imagine choosing the FLDS livestyle over the one they live because the one they live is what is most comfortable to them. I think the same goes for the FLDS when they look across the fence. They know what's on the other side but they are content where they are and have no desire to be "rescued" and drug across the fence to our side of things.
Annie, I really appreciate the fact that people will stand up for someone in their God-given and American rights. Thank you for putting out a voice for the FLDS. I claim them as my people although I do not agree with everything they have done. I really think it is awful that all the children were taken like they were. I know how I would feel if mine were taken from me. But, I do have to admit I am disgusted by the fact that these women would just leave their husband for another man. I know some of them, and on the news- yes, they seemed so sad, but how do you think their husband felt when he was kicked out and could not even say goodbye to his precious children? Where was these womens' sadness when their husband was kicked out? So in one sense I can sympathize with the mothers' being sad about their children being taken. In another, what goes around, comes around, as has already been stated on this blog several times.
What some of you aren't willing to acknowledge is that the child welfare situation and underage marriage problem is one in the same. In other words, your CHILDREN (14-16) are being placed in marriages.
It's really quite black and white. Your life choice to be a polygamist isn't the issue (even though ya'll know it's illegal). It's affecting the children because they aren't given any choice as to when or whom they will marry. According to the state of Texas, that is illegal.
To the FLDS women who post here, I have a question for you to answer in your own head and heart. When your children repeatedly disobey, do you ignore their behavior or do you put consequences in place?
I'm asking this because I feel some folks on here don't understand that even as adults, actions have consequences. Here you have a situation where the bad choices of the parents have affected the children. (By the way, Annie, I hadn't thought about how being here on the outside could really play out for the older children, but you're right.) To convince yourself that willfull disobedience (ie: not obeying the law) comes without consequences is not only nieve and childish, but irresponsible.
If you have a problem keeping the laws, go to Mexico. I think there is already an FLDS group there and they don't seem to be getting much push-back.
"in a civilized, respectful manner, without all the name calling and prejudice. There is much misunderstanding on both sides of the fence."
Well said.
I saw an online interview from the Today Show(NBC) this morning. Two FLDS couples were on the show along with Willie Jessop, and asked questions from viewers by e-mail.
Q: Every time someone from your community is questioned whether or not you feel it is abuse to have a teenage girl pregnant or married, you all dance around the question. If you all have nothing to hide, why not give a straight forward answer?
A: Rulon Keate "It does not apply to us. We have little boys." A: Willie Jessop "Its a broad question"
WHAT?????
Mr. Keate and Mr. Jessop, you both danced around the question AGAIN. This is the same as saying you have something to hide.
Answers like these feed the prejudice fire.
Why not stand up for what you believe? We already know by the Bishops record you have 16 year olds marrying older men.
I dont think that straight answers are given for the exact reason of the responses that they get just on this board. People dont want to consider any other lifestyle other then their own. By that i dont mean the children or child marriages i mean the many wifes-one man.
Most people, FLDS or not will skirt around the bush if they feel cornered with questions, or if they feel that they are being attacked, i know i would, not because i wanted to lie but because i didnt want a confrontation or feel the need to get defensive.
Most of everyone not in FLDS are not talking about the children there focused on this type of marriage style and it shouldnt be about that, and not to be rude but if they choose to marry like this if their adults then its their business.
If they feel that they cant come out in the open (which im sure they cant because polygamy is illiegal, hence why they are not giving out their names they are probely afraid of getting in trouble) then maybe some changes need to be made to help us understand, and to allow them to be more open and legal about their marriages, which would also allow the govt to keep track of the marrages and the girls ages at time of marriage.
and i agree it would be nice to see a board on here for "tactful" questions - hint, hint.
The question quoted above IS about the children. In the state of Texas a 13-18 year old is a child. Why can't this question be answered directly? The question was not 'how many wives do you have?' or a personal attack on anyone. It would only be percieved as such if the answer incriminates them. That is why it looks suspicious.
I will put up a thread for questions for y'all. The problem I have seen over the years this blog has been up is that the FLDS that are willing to come here usually end up with the foul mouths and the bad names for those in disagreement with them. I have been ashamed more than once that I came from this group.
I respectfully withdraw my request for a new thread for questions. I have read enough on other boards to see that those that do respond are not of much of a helpful nature. The FLDS YFZ situation mess, starting with the first lies told to the community around the FLDS compound in Texas: 'we are only building a huntin lodge' I guess they forgot to print the last line....'so we can marry young fawns'
See there I go, it is hard to be nice with so much emotion surrounding the whole situation.
About eight years ago I bought a home in a covenant-controlled community. In doing this, I had to agree to abide by the written rules of the neighborhood. For example, I have to get approval before I paint the exterior of my home (just in case I was thinking pink might be a good), I am not allowed to park an RV in my driveway, I have to put my trash at the curb on Tues and Fri only, etc.
There is a whole book of rules and regulations. The consequences for not abiding by the rules is you get a written warning or a fine of $50. Last year our neighborhood hired what's called a "standard monitor". It is her job to look for infractions to our "code" and notify the homeowners. Since her arrival, I have gotten a few "notes". My first reaction was to get peeved because I thought she was nit-picking. The same stuff that was okay before didn't fly anymore. It wasn't that the rules had changed, it's just that they were being enforced.
All that to say that my covenant situation reminds me of what is happening to the FLDS. On some level I can relate to their frustration. They have become accustomed to the governments of UT and AZ giving them lots of wiggle room. They came to Texas and tried to get away with the same stuff and Texas enforced the laws in place.
The laws are there for a reason and would be pointless if they weren't enforced...much like my HOA covenant!
Why is it anybody's business what they were going to do with the PRIVATE PROPERTY they purchased? That's the first thing I think of when I hear the people down there all wizzing themselves over they lied about what they were going to do!!
Why does that make you so mad? Because if they'd said they were going to build up a community and build a temple you would have had a chance to stop them? Gee, Tex, maybe that's why they lied to you. Maybe they saw y'all coming from 10 miles away for the bigots you are.
While personally I would have told you it was none of your f-ing business. I guess this group is less confrontational and uptight about personal property rights than I am.
Their misrepresentation of what they were doing with the property was only the first lie. They continued to be dishonest and uncooperative with local authorities about what they were doing with their land. Yes, they were required to be forthcoming about their large construction projects as is everyone else around here (permits etc. required by law for EVERYONE).
I disagree - It DOES matter when you are talking about a group of people larger than the town of Eldorado moving in and monopolizing the resources.
For an open-minded person, you sure are quick with the insults and vulgar language.
That is what they should have told them. Why lie about it? Perhaps it wasn't anyone's business but being uptight doesn't justify lying. Remember the story of the boy who cried wolf? That is the lesson the FLDS in Texas are learning.
It would only be percieved as such if the answer incriminates them. That is why it looks suspicious.
-Which is why i said what i did, and said exactly the same thing that you just said right there. If they know they are going to be critised they arent going to tell the truth, alot of people FLDS or not wouldnt just to avoid being further attacked.
Because I do not believe that we should be verbally attacking these women for their choices does not mean that i agree with their lifestyle nor suport it. I do NOT agree with it, nor with putting children at marriage to a man of any age when they are less then 18 yrs old. However, if you truely believe that these women are brain washed and that they dont no whats right from wrong i dont believe that we should be verbally attacking them. If you see a women beat up on the side walk you dont walk up to her, grab the nearest stick and continue to beat her while your asking her why she stays. you put your arm around her, ask questions, give suggestions then leave it up to her to make her choice.
Yes i do believe that the women should be able to atleast have some contact with their children but the men should be the ones made to leave and the govt should keep the kids on the compound but seperated and have supervised visitations w/the mothers so their watched so no influence can be made. Its a good 99% chance that these kids will evenutally be returned to their parents after 6 months or a yr of being away, my concern with them is that they will feel like cast outs and feel like they have no safe place to call home, and how this is going to affect them.
Now dont get me wrong here, because i jump down some of your backs does not mean that i am pro-FLDS, but i do believe that everyone should be able to make free choices for their own lives. Once a child thats 15-16-17 has a baby in any society shes no longer mentaly a child, its sad but theres nothing more that anyone can do about that.
Personaly I think that the compounds are nothing but pedophile camps, but thats just my opinion and my opinion isnt going to change these womens minds about their lifestyle or how they live it, so me saying that to them is pointless and would to me do them more harm.
If they saw us biggots coming from 10 miles away, why did they pursue the land deal?
This is the part that always confuses me. They seemed to know their presence would not be welcome, so they knew they had to lie. With all they were trying to get by with, why did they insist on doing it anyway? They knew there would be scrutiny and a watchful eye.
hubris (hyoo'bris) - excessive pride or self-confidence; arrogance
My religious beliefs involve murder - every now and then and only when my prophet sees fit. I'm glad to do it for my prophet who speaks for the Lord and besides, it's my American right to practice my religion. If the law comes after me, I'll scream "RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION!!!". Then I'll get some sympathizers who will take up my cause and guilt law enforcement into looking the other way every time there's a new victim.
Sure, I know it's against the law to murder, but it's more important to obey my prophet, the mouthpiece of the Lord, than to worry about trivial laws here on earth.
SEE HOW THAT SOUNDS? I just switched crimes (insert pedophelia in the place of murder).
If we aren't going to enforce child protection laws, where does it end?
They would puruse the land deal because they wanted the land. They are not there to make friends and party with the locals. Whether the locals like them or not is irrelevant to their purpose of making a home and building a temple there.
People ask why the need for the big fence and guard tower. You just answered it for them - nosey neighbors! LOL!
Those people have been "watched and scrutinized" for generations so I doubt that even phases them. Utah is run mainly by mainstream LDS members who are desperate to separate themselves from these people and their practice of plural wives. Personally I think the authorities in Utah have ulterior motives based in their religious beliefs for keeping a thumb on these people.
Maybe the FLDS thought Texas would have a "clearer mind" about the subject and look at it through the lense of constitutional rights rather than from desperation to deny common roots with these people.
I read somewhere that the UEP started that way in Canada, they told the Land owner that they wanted his land for a Hunting lodge. I think that was the biggest mistake the group up here made, joining the UEP. Although it is physically easier to leave the group here, it is equally amotional. I know of some that left when they were teens, but the emotional scars are still there now that they are in their 50s.
I keep trying to see the intellectual side of your point of view. I just can't - it's all emotion. You think the people of Texas got their feelings hurt because YFZ put a wall up and didn't invite us in for a BBQ. You think it's because the neighbors were nosy and FLDS was being private.
Laws were broken and that is what this is about - PERIOD. The FLDS is not a group that sprung up overnight. They've been around for awhile and people know about them. People also know that law enforcement in the Utah Arizona area where the YFZ gang were located was (and still is) very corrupt. The FLDS got away with more than they should because most of the people in law enforcement were members of the FLDS group or had family within. There was a lot of covering up and looking the other way when it came to underaged marriage and abuse. The law simply wasn't enforced. I think those in charge might have perceived the rest of the country to operate like that. It's either that or they were so arrogant they thought they could get away with it.
You have to admit, Texas waiting a long time before going in. If they were going on hunches and innuendo alone, they would have raided the place years ago. I believe people will be shocked at some of the things that are brought to light through all this.
I find myself agreeing with much of what you say, but there seems to be a piece of the puzzle missing in your point of view.
You are against the underaged marriage and abuse and you think that the women should be left to make their own life choices. Me too!
Here's the problem. Where are the parents of these young women who are being married off so young? They are either in approval or sitting by allowing it to happen. Part of their lifestyle at this point in time is accepting this illegal thing - statutory rape, basically.
I think this is where the attack point of view comes in. I'm a parent of girls. There's no way in hell I'm going to allow someone to marry either of them until they are old enough to accept the responsibility and blessing of marriage and family. It really isn't a matter of culture. The reason there is a law protecting girls from this is because it's developmentally inappropriate. I'm not saying that it's physically impossible, I'm saying it's emotionally imprudent. We aren't talking about women having their own choices. We're talking about girls. Many of these women are in their early twenties and have many children. How is this phycially possible unless they started in their teens?
If the parents won't stand up for these young girls, the state needs to. Even if it means taking them out of their natural surrounding, looking the other way because it's awkward and hard to deal with isn't acceptable. This cycle has to stop.
Maybe Wilford Woodruff really was a prophet and polygamy should have been stopped! He prophesied.....continue to attempt to practice plural marriage.....at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein,......and the imprisonment of the First Presidency.....and the confiscation of personal property ...
So, your temple has been desecrated, made unholy. Your profit (spelling intended) is in jail. Your property has not been confiscated.....yet. But, YFZ Ranch, by some accounts, looks more like a ghost town. Why do you still follow a false prophets?
o i agree that it does have to stop, and it would be nice if these kids could grow up in a normal home but unfornatly they dont and they will most likely be returned to their homes and origanal way of life. My worries are is that when they go back they wont feel or be accepted after an amount of time being gone, which will be disasterous for the children. second, i feel that if they are going to keep them out then they need to do this to all of the communties not just this one to stop it all together or theres no point in this at all, and the damage done to these kids will be in vain. I have a 16 year old girl, i would NEVER allow her to date anyone like that let alone even an 18 year old. Trust, its drilled into her brain to avoid serious relationships and to go to college. so she has the finanical freedome to marry whom she chooses and when shes ready not because she needs someone to take care of her.
I do feel for these women, and i do understand that they were also once 16 year olds forced into marriages possibly, and are hurting for their children but i also believe that they arent as neive as people think they are, nor brainwashed. But brain washed or not they wouldnt know it if it sat on their faces and wee'd. Which is why i argue that if they feel strong enough that they are right, let them have the freedom to make their choices as we all should be able to do as long as they realize the consequences of what they are deciding (which i think they do know)
they know the laws and know that we dont accept this, otherwise their would be records of their births, ages, names of which child belongs to whom.
with paperwork and records not being done, how could we tell a 14yr old, from a 16 yr old, to an 17 yr old.
There are alot of lonely people in the world that could benefit from this and our socity could learn alot from this. i just think this over all is a sad situation, and its really a shame that something like this which could be a good thing for these women, children and anyone needing something liek this but it has to be abused and ruined by perverts.
Agreed, but this was handled by the state government of Texas, not the federal government. Don't ask me why Arizona and Utah haven't addressed it on the state level. I think it's shameful.
It isn't like the FBI (a federal agency) went in and raided the place without any reason. If that were the case, then I would suspect YFZ was targeted in some way. As far as I know, this is the only group like this in the state of Texas from which the state received a call (phony or not) with charges of underage marriage and abuse. They had ample reason to do what they did. I'm sure if they got another call about another group tomorrow, there would be a thorough investigation on them too.
You and I are on the same page. My opinion is that if a few girls are given an opportunity to "ripen" it was worth it. Perhaps if nothing else it will be a wake-up call for the FLDS to respect the laws of the land or own up to the consequences like the rest of us.
i hate to say this because i would never want my children taken away, but i would really wish that if these kids could lead normal lives that they would be kept away. but again it would be in vain in any hurt being caused to them if they only did it to this compound.
However, men are men in our out of the compound. Granted not all are like this but alot are which is probely why you dont see many men fighting to stop this on here.
Some being helped are better than none. Every group that systematically takes advantage of young girls in this way should absolutely be targeted, no matter what beliefs they hold. The states in which they find such abuses going on are responsible for investigating. Texas stepped up to the plate. It's not Texas' fault these children are unable or unwilling to identify biological parents. Talk about a huge red flag.
Over the years, Warren has turned this quiet group into a virtual sex ring, with him being the ring master. People within can say it's not about sex, but is sex being had and are wives being swapped around (even as young as 14)? It used to be that the men had multiple partners within the polygamist lifestyle, but now it's the women too.
FLDS can say what they want about divorce statistics here in the outside world, but what Warren has done (and what his members have allowed) with all the family "reassigning" is no different. In fact it's worse.
How are these children supposed to feel about their father just disappearing one day? No visitation or contact. One day, he's just gone and *poof* their mother has a new husband! It's hard for me to believe that the "new father" treats these children (whose biological father has been shamefully kicked out as an apostate) the same as his biological children. It goes against human nature.
Okay, time to step off the soapbox and grab a cup of coffee.
You said "i would really wish that if these kids could lead normal lives".
What standard are you using for 'normal'?
By all accounts from observers of the situation, they feel this children are well behaved and courteous. That is one normal I wish I saw in any public school system today.
Normal as in not having to marry men 20 plus years older then them (not the 20 women to 1 man) but children marring 50 yr olds.
Normal as in not being forced from a prophet to move from one husband to the next.
and yes as i have said before there are alot of benefits from this lifestyle that are better then ours, but the parts that are bad way over shadow the good.
As far as these women having a choice, i do not call it choice when a child or young woman whom is not educated past the what 7th-8th grade? put in front of their prophet to ask if the will accept a marriage with so n so. THAT IS NOT FREE CHOICE, THAT IS ABUSE OF POWER. If they agree it does not mean it was willing it was most likely intimadation, and knowing that if the prophet asked its what he wanted so they agree'd.
and leave it to a man (which im assuming that you are) to argue about two women having a conversation that doenst involve "being sweet". For the anonymous that said get a room. if you dont like us talking dont read it, im sure that your capable of moving the tab down so you can skip over our talks.
Why can't the women have more than one husband? Thats not fair. i never found a man yet that could handle my needs. Maybe I should start a religion and stock pile a bunch of husbands. They can cook for me, clean up for me, give me some good sex, go to work and I will make them wear leather g-strings. Yeh, the possibilities......
man did you guys watch oprah? The one woman that showed her house must have had a man there w/her because she kept looking at someone to see if she could give answer's and why couldnt she even tell us how many sister wives she had or the number of children in the house, by that and how she acted tells you right their that those women have NO freedom to do as they please! they have NO say in anything unless its something that they are allowed to say. Thats really f***** up.
oo and what else, G maybe that they admited that yes the girls were married at 14-15 and it was ok because their taken care of? What the hell kinda crap is that! and what kind of mother allowed an adult man to rape and molest her 14year old child because thats what it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Denkel, The new prophet has spoken! Lemme know when you have your temple built and staffed! I'm coming to live there too! But I hope you're providing the men b/c I can't seem to find a decent one around here...
BTW- people keep asking 'where are the men? the fathers of these children?' I saw 2 on the Today show the other day... I think that's all of 'em! Or at least those were the only ones that could still get around w/o a tank of oxygen and a pretty young nurse!
Oprah was an eye opener. The people they had on there didn't seem vindictive, jealous or bitter. Actually quite the opposite really. Elissa was just sweet and showed real concern for her family and even though she recognized all the women from the Lisa Lang video she respected their privacy and did not identify them. Not the actions of a jealous embittered 'enemy'.
As far as the woman who showed her house I think they said there were two lawyers there with them. Are the lawyers FLDS members too I wonder? Maybe that's who she was looking at to see if she should answer questions.
They didn't try to deny that 14 year olds are married to older men. Just that they're "taken care of". What does that even mean? Taken care of?
That other lady with the 7 kids had only been out four months. I found it interesting that even though they had been raised with that culture and not exposed to 'secular' ideas both the mother and the 14 year old daughter knew it was wrong and felt deeply compeled to get the heck out of there. If you're a mom your gut tells you what's bad for your kid even if everyone around you is saying it's right.
I also noticed they'd all hit the beauty parlor! LOL! Good for them because every one of them were beautiful women.
Oh, one other thing that I noticed is that Elissa said it was not her biological father but a step-father (new assigned father) that had announced in a family meeting that three of his daughters were to be married and then told her and her mother later she was one of them. I wondered if some of the exiled fathers were taken out of the picture because they would be more inclined to protect their own children and resist having their 13-17 year old daughters taken as lambs to the slaughter to be raped. I wish I knew how many bio fathers handed their daughters over and how many were "reassigned fathers".
The mothers that sit idly by and just let it happen I think must have some form of post traumatic stress or something. They've given up feeling anything probably a looooong time ago when they were being raped as little girls and then shuffled from man to man to be raped again.
Hah Denkel! Let me know when you start your cult up, get the old Yearning for Whatever ranch going!! Listen though, make sure you have an onsite gym, with massage by Sven! and Juan! That sounds great, hey now there is a great story to write Oprah about, get Lisa wing? to report on that.!
I feel sorry for these children do any of you think about how foster care is and how hard it is on them? Who are we to play God and destroy peoples lives just because we dont believe in what they are doing. How many young girls get pregnant in society today just because they want to? Who are we to judge someones religion? I dont believe in multiple wifes or young marriage but people in the world do it , our greatgrandparents married young. I believe the children do belong with there mother and have CPS check in on them weekly and make sure they are safe and being feed, clothed, schooled, etc. People have a right to live how they want that is what America is about, who are we to judge these people? The bible evens says thee who have not sinned cast the first stone, well everyone has sinned it is human but for Mrs. Jessop to get on TV just to get fame it is sad , yes she had something horrible happen to her but she left. Some of these woman dont want to leave. This is there choice as is every American's choice to live in the USA. Give those kids back to there mothers before they are so messed up and become a satistic of society and end up like alot of foster kids in jail, on drugs, or just plain unproductive. There are some who do make it but alot dont. I will pray for you women at the ranch I do not condone or believe in what you do but I do agree you deserve your children.
You're trying to apply your advantages to their situation.
And how could foster care be worse than what's happening to them in the compound? If you're like me, it's hard to understand how any parent could allow their children to be hurt, yet these parents are allowing their children (daughters) to be married and have children at 14!
I think many of these women don't try to leave because they've been intimidated into staying. They've been taught that everyone on the outside is going to hell - for not being inside. They've been taught the only way to the celestial kingdom is to be pure on earth. The definition of pure is doing WHATEVER the prophet says (This explains a lot since their prophet is in prison).
Taking themselves and their children out would damn them. Not to mention the fact that they have no living skills - no education - no way to earn a decent living to support all their children. Their way of life is so foreign to the rest of us. It's probably easier to just lump it and stick with what (and who) they know. Yes, I believe they are doing what they think is best for the kids - but the definition of "best" has been manipulated by those in power. That is the trajedy.
do any of you think about how foster care is and how hard it is on them? Who are we to play God and destroy peoples lives just because we dont believe in what they are doing.5/15/2008 5:27 AM
--------- so your going to sit there and say that men in their 30-s 40s n so forth have a right to have their way with your daughter? and that foster care is worse then that?
First off lets just understand this correctly. This is NOT a religious thing this is a compound where (some) of these men use religion to rape young girls, and to fullfill their morbid fantasy of having more then one women.
They use religion to control and abuse these women from birth.
For those that say they are free to choose, your wrong. When you 12-13 years old and you know that your going to be married off and you dont like it, what do you do? you are told no you have to the idiot (excuse me i mean prophet) said you had to. You know nothing of the outside world, you think that were all devils, were going to hell, you no nothing of child services, nor the police dept to ask for help. You do as your told and get married. By the time your a woman its to late because your children are spread out across the camp or in other compound in another state.
Do you go to church? The last time that i went to church my priest, minister which ever one you might go to did not say the 10 commandments then add an 11th one in their saying go and rape all the 13 year olds you want.
There is no excuse for this!! This community could be something that could be a great thing, however, when you have young children being married off, have arranged marriages, have women being traided from husband to husband like a trading card theres a problem.
Now that must have come from a man that doesn’t like women not being sweet - g so sorry.
If you don't like my opinion then shove it. No I'm not un-educated I have an associates, and working on a BA in the medical field.
What did I say that was not true?
Do you not marry children (13-17 year olds)?
Do you not have arranged marriages?
Did your women themselves on TV admit that you marry young girls that are 13-16 and made the statement that they are treated better then the older ones?
Do your compounds not have secret passages (which we all seen on Oprah)?
Are you not teaching your children that we are evil?
Are you not letting your children being educated to at least the 12th grade so they at least have the survival skills if they choose to leave (since you say they actually do have a choice)?
Do you not have 50-60-70 year old men marrying 13-16 year old children?
Did the police not pull out 31 young girls that were between 13 and 17 that have babies and/or have given birth already?
Do you suppress what your women are allowed to say? From the interviews that were done and seen on TV this week, that would be YES.
Do you not have secret birthing centers in your compounds for your women to give birth so we wont no what's really going on, or the ages of the children that are giving birth?
If you were so godly and rightous you would not have to hide everything that you do nor your livestyle.
Since you’re not legally nor technically married, because each man has so many children do not some of your wives get on welfare and gov't assistance, which WE PAY FOR btw.
OR, maybe it was the comment about your leaders. Your leaders are no different then any other man or women living in this world. We all wake up in the morning, brush our teeth, and sit on the toilet the same way.
You are no more special then any tom, dick, harry or sally walking down the street, and because you choose to populate the earth with 10,000 children doesn’t mean your going to walk the path to god any quicker.
God put us here to live our lives, to be happy, be thoughtful to others, to care and love EVERYONE. He judges us by how we treat people, and how much we help and love one another.
And for the ones that were talking about race. Since when does a mans/woman’s skin color have anything to do with the person that they are? There are evil people everywhere with every skin color!
There is a review of Elissa Wall's new book on this site:
http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/
Just from the review there are glaring inconsistencies that need to be studied and questioned. First, Elissa says she was shocked when she was told she was to be married at 14 because she'd never known of anybody getting married that young. She knew of ONE girl who got married at seventeen but the rest were 18. On oprah she said girls getting married at 14 was common. So which is it ... shocking or common?
The other issue is the claim that these girls have no choice because of no knowledge of the outside world, mistrust of those outside the sect, etc. According to Elissa she snuck out and went to town where she saw movies, shopped for CD's and hung out with friends. She and her friends even got alcohol and went out to party in the "sticks". That doesn't sound like someone who has no concept of the outside world, is afraid of outsiders or has no contact with the outside.
The man she's married to now impregnated her when she was 16 years old and he was 23 years old. They were not married when she conceived. Ohhh, how sweet! Look at the cute couple! Nobody on the Oprah show pointed out that HE is by law a rapist as well. Oh and by the way he's got a meth problem too. A 23 year old meth addict impregnates a 16 year old girl and they're sitting on Oprah selling books without anybody asking any questions. Why?
When I saw the interview with Elissa on Oprah I was impressed. After reading what's in her book my opinion of her has changed dramatically. She is dishonest ... the things she told Oprah and Lisa Ling conflict with what she wrote in her book.
Two of the pregnant "girls" taken into custody during the raid have now been proven to be adults. One is 18 and the other 22. Both of these women had given their true names and ages and provided identification that was ignored from the very first day.
Funny that the 18 year old was listed along with her birthday on one of the charts CPS submitted to the judge to prove she had given birth as a minor so they were aware (or should have been aware) that she was over eighteen years old. They held her for weeks anyway. Why?
Two of the pregnant "girls" taken into custody during the raid have now been proven to be adults. One is 18 and the other 22. Both of these women had given their true names and ages and provided identification that was ignored from the very first day.
Funny that the 18 year old was listed along with her birthday on one of the charts CPS submitted to the judge to prove she had given birth as a minor so they were aware (or should have been aware) that she was over eighteen years old. They held her for weeks anyway. Why?
Elissa was on20/20 last night and I found some inconcistencies in her story too. But the fact remains that she did not want to marry at 14 and did not give her concent to having sex. She miscarried at least twice before she was 16. (A midwife tesified in court.) I don't think Alan Steed should do any time for rape as he was as much a victum as Elissa.
She was 17 when she left to be with her now husband.
Between the ages of 14 to 17 she had 4 miscarriages from her FLDS husband.
This child was raped from the time she turned 14 until she turned 17 and your going to sit there and go over her book with a fine toothed comb to find any excuse you can to go after her, your sad and pathetic.
There is no excuse for this happening. Elissa stopped being a little girl and became a women the first time that jerk climbed on top of her and raped her.
It was proven on video tape on the Oprah show from the FLDS women talking that is IS COMMON for girls 13-16 to be married, which proves that it is common practice.
Annie do yourself a favor and print out your posts then take them to the nearest junior high school english teacher. S/he'll be able to help you. If you do, in fact, have an AA or AS from an accredited university that's a sad testament to the level of mediocrity in our schools.
Your post above illustrates the point I was trying to make. Your posts are filled with inflamitory rhetoric with no basis in fact. You make assumptions without facts to back them up and then have a knee-jerk emotional response. Diarrhea of the keyboard. For instance you assumed I was an FLDS man who addressed your posts because you were a woman who was not "being sweet". You went off on an emotionally driven post based on that assumption. Would you be surprised to know that I am a 36 y/o college educated woman who works in the legal field? Would you be shocked to know my friends and colleagues consider me a feminist? I hope it goes without saying but I am not FLDS either.
I don't have to be a member of a church, agree with or even like their beliefs to speak up against religious bigotry and hate speech. That's what the majority of your post above is. Why they choose to have children, if they believe in a prophet, if they are private and keep to themselves, have arranged marriages ... if you don't agree with any of it then don't join the religion. Other than that it's none of your business and certainly not a basis to spew hate speech towards them.
Some of the "facts" you list above are actually opinions germinated from religious intolerance. Like the "secret passages" seen on Oprah. I've seen similar construction in other buildings and it's called storage. The women on Oprah looking off to the side before answering questions does not mean there was an FLDS man there dictating if they could speak. They had their attorney's there and that's likely who they were looking at. I've seen celebrities and politicians do the same thing during interviews where their lawyers are present. There is no evidence that the birthing center was "secret" let alone that its purpose was to hide births from authorities. Yes, I know Lemont said that on Oprah. I heard him say it and he said "probably" for that reason. It was his opinion not a fact.
As to the pregnant girls I suggest you go to this blog one reporter has and read how CPS came up with that number. I think you'll find it enlightening. It's the thread called "disputed minors".
Would you be surprised to learn that two of those pregnant teenagers were 18 and 22 years old and CPS knew it but kept them in custody anyway? The evidence of a pregnancy of a 13 year old girl CPS referred to did not apply to any girl in custody but to a woman whose pregnancy at that age was in 1990? That their number included one girl who was counted twice? That one girl refused to submit to a pregnancy test so they counted her as pregnant anyway to err on the side of caution.
So in answer to your question did the police pull out 31 15-16 and 17 year old girls who were either pregnant or had given birth already I'll have to answer No, they did not. There may be some but then there may not be any. It has yet to be determined but there were definately NOT 31.
Do they have 50-60-70 year old men marrying 13 year old children? The bishops record does not reflect this. The husbands are in their 20's or maybe 30's. I think there was one who was older. The state has not shown evidence of a marriage or sexual relationship between any 50, 60 or 70 year old man and a girl under 16. Since in America people are innocent until proven guilty I'll have to answer no, they are not marrying 13 year old girls until the State proves beyond a reasonable doubt that they are.
I'm not saying Elissa wasn't married at 14. I'm saying there are inconsistencies in her story. There are things that she did that don't match up with what she claimed the situation was and what her state of mind was at the time. Some of the claims she makes about the FLDS lifestyle don't jive with her story.
Excuse the hell out of me for pointing out that she claimed to be under the thumb of the FLDS all the time and there was nobody to ask for help but at the same time trapsed all over the country side to other cities and states. While she was supposedly powerless to ask anyone for help she had meetings with ex-FLDS family members who wanted to get her out but she didn't leave. I guess I should just sit down and drink the grape kool-aid or I'm sick and pathetic.
Who is it that's brainwashed? Isn't brainwashed about blind belief without scrutinizing or questioning what you're being told?
I'm not saying Elissa wasn't married at 14. I'm saying there are inconsistencies in her story. There are things that she did that don't match up with what she claimed the situation was and what her state of mind was at the time. Some of the claims she makes about the FLDS lifestyle don't jive with her story.
Excuse the hell out of me for pointing out that she claimed to be under the thumb of the FLDS all the time and there was nobody to ask for help but at the same time trapsed all over the country side to other cities and states. While she was supposedly powerless to ask anyone for help she had meetings with ex-FLDS family members who wanted to get her out but she didn't leave. I guess I should just sit down and drink the grape kool-aid or I'm sick and pathetic.
Who is it that's brainwashed? Isn't brainwashed about blind belief without scrutinizing or questioning what you're being told?
You can say you're a 36 year old woman in the legal profession and I can say I'm a 5 year old water buffalo in Africa. That's the beauty of this blog. Annie also might be a 12 year old boy - we just don't know, so call off the attack dogs.
Your saying that "if you don't agree with any of it then don't join the religion" reveals your ignorance on this topic. If you're in the legal profession as you claim to be, then you should be no stranger to research. Do some on this group.
And I'm going to have to go ahead and call your bluff on being a feminist. A true feminist would be outraged at the things these women are forced to do.
The name-calling doesn't make you look educated, it makes you look emotional by the way.
Ahh another feminist, how shocking. Which I highly doupt you are (a woman that is) Do we really care if you’re a feminist? Do we care about how educated and smart you seem to think you are? No we don’t.
I think that the news media has proven enough that what she says is correct. Granted this is still under investigation and the numbers maybe off however, it is indeed a fact that minor children are married off to adult men, no matter their age be it 18 or 50 it is wrong. If you are indeed a woman you should be ashamed of yourself for not standing up for these children. These women have a choice when their adults to live how they choose, but there children do not.
For accusing her of making statements that are false or having an opinion based on evidence that isn’t proven yet, you are doing that also. I think that you need to address your own issues and word vomit before you comment on others.
As far as trying to put yourself above her in your "education" you sound ridicules, and you need to take your own advice. I think that indeed she has made emotional responses being a woman myself I have done the same, does that mean that I am not educated? I have also made typing errors on here does that mean that I am stupid and ignorant? NO it does not. This is a journal, blog it is not work, nor anything professional that should warrent a more formal style of anything. So keep yapping your professional big words so I have something to amuse myself with later.
If you don't like what she says skip over her comments and simply don’t read them for infact the majority of us agree with what she has had to say.
o but wait, your right while most of everyone else in the world with an opinion about these marriages is wrong -laughs.
blah blah blah blah. Talk about a knee-jerk emotional response.
For her writing so illiterate you sure did take the time to read it, and post long enough of a response.
The only thing that I read out of everything that you have said is excuses for everything that has been said on CNN, Oprah and 20/20 about what is going on there. The fact is the state of Texas had every right to go in there and protect these children if abuse is suspected.
And did I read this right, not a few weeks ago that a girl gave birth to a baby in state custody? and she also has a 16 month old baby? If in fact she is 18 right now as you seem to these all of these young girls really are then she was still 16 when she had her oldest.
You are doing the same thing that you accuse Annie of doing. Your basing your opinions of innocence on these people because the word guilty hasn’t been pounded in sand yet. So Mrs. Legal I know everything. If you want to talk about our legal system explain why convicted pedophiles are let out of jail to re-rape and murder children? Why are pedophiles let out on simply probation? Talk about why are legal systems are screwed up, I'm talking to the reason right now. Liberal ass's that think they know everything.
Which btw you must not have seen last night. It was interesting watching the video tape of these illegal weddings taking place at that FLDS owned hotel, by an investigator, how romantic, can I have my wedding like that to?
If your a feminist woman not a man good for you, I could care less either or. An asshole is an asshole for either gender.
So basically your saying that anyone that isn't college educated on this board (which yes I happen to be) are idiots and should have no personal opinion?
I graduated from High School when i was 17. Got an associates degree in Web Design, and Business by the time I was 21 and a degree of associates in Nursing in my early 30's and as of this past year I'm working on my RN to BSN.
You are also guilty as is everyone here that has stated there personal opinions on something that has yet to be proven total fact on in all stand points.
You nor your opinions are no better then anyone else on here posting, so get off your high horse. Which btw the last time that I checked this is America, its called freedom of speach. Not freedom so long as you agree with my (your)opinion.
BTW since we are going over everyone’s opinions with a fine tooth comb, I went over yours.
-------------------------
English is not english
inflammatory is not inflamitory
Diarrhea of the keyboard is a fragmented sentence.
women on Oprah looking off to the side before answering questions does = does should be "do"
definately should be definitely
bishops should be bishop's
---------------
If your going to try to put me in my place do it with something better then grammer. If you show me your other post I would gladly read them for you for correction.
However, you might want to check your spelling of inflamitory, definately and I daresay your english should have been capitalized. LOL :-D Sorry, the proofreader in me just couldn't resist. Really, your post was delightful and reasonable unlike the irrational diatribe that so often appears here.
Annie, you really ought to use a spell-checker before you post. It might elevate your credibility just a tad; although I do agree with Anon 10:37 regarding the poor grammar you use to discharge such blinding intolerance and misinformation.
"It was proven on video tape on the Oprah show from the FLDS women talking that is IS COMMON for girls 13-16 to be married, which proves that it is common practice."
I just went back and here's what they are quoted as saying on Oprah's website:
When asked about teenage girls being forced to marry older men, the women say there's no reason for concern and that the girl could refuse if she didn't want to marry. "They are actually well taken care of. They're not abused, especially the young ones," one of the women says.
The women answered a question about 'teenaged girls'. That could mean anything from 13 to 19. Lisa did not specify under 16 and did not do any follow up questioning to narrow it down. I understand she was there under tense conditions but I wish she would have pursued that issue a little more.
My question is if the women were referring to girls below the legal age of consent why the attorney would have allowed the question in the first place and allowed the women to answer? Did they assume they were talking about girls above the legal age of consent? Was there a pre-agreement that references to teenaged girls meant girls above the legal age? There's something going on there with the lawyer we're not getting to know.
There's simply not enough information about the ages to prove the woman was talking about 13-16 year olds or that it is common. There are teenaged 'marriages' but are they with 13-16 year olds or 16-18 year olds? It happens but how common is it? To the woman who said "especially the young ones" - what do you consider to be a young bride?
These are questions Lisa Ling should have asked because without the answers any conclusions drawn can only be assumptions.
I have followed this story over the past several weeks and I used to feel that CPS really was overstepping their bounds when they took the infant and small children from the YFZ ranch. I also felt that something had to be done to protect young girls from being married off at such a young age. I heard the FLDS women on TV say over and over, “no one is forced.” The FLDS would never answer questions about the age girls were married, and still are not doing so. This weekend, I heard second hand, that some FLDS men use drugs to control some of the women and children. I feel so sorry for the victims, both women and children. I assume that we are not getting the full story from CPS as criminal charges have not been filed yet, but, I am certain we are not getting the full story from the FLDS either. There is so much condemning evidence against them. CPS cannot even find all the parents. Where are they? Why are they not in court trying to get their children back? Why are they abusing the 'lost boys'? It is obvious that the FLDS consider themselves above the law. We now hear that the FLDS are spreading to other states. The abuse will continue to spread until the FLDS know that the government and the people will not accept this kind of behavior, especially in the name of religion. The FLDS abusers must be stopped. The FLDS have brought this mess upon themselves, and now they will have to get out of it. It is sad that the children have to suffer because of it.
Some of the 100 children they havent matched to Mothers will be the young woman who are 'married', and there would have been a few young men that were at the YFZ working. The one young Mom that just gave birth is 22, apparently she looks much younger and the CPS guessed that she was under 14 when conceived her first child.
According to this story up to two dozen of the "girls" in custody may be adults but CPS is still in the process of proving their ages. The 18 year old and 22 year olds who recently gave birth were already released. That means that CPS's 31 teenaged mothers may actually be as few as five.
I'd like to know of those five who are apparently undisputed how old they are? How old were they when they had their first child? Has anybody seen anything on this you could link to?
Marrying girls as soon as they are pubescent has been reported to be a pervasive religious tenant strictly adhered to by the FLDS. For a group who blindly obeys the teachings of their prophet they sure aren't very obedient to this suposed law or there would have been nearly every one of the teenaged girls married with babies intead of just a hand full.
They are a ocult not a relegion,and the men started it to to have sex under false pretense,they release the boys to the world but keep the girls,only a blind person could not see this very wrong way to use relegion[Jim Jones all over again].Why didn't they stop those trucks that where removing stuff from the compound the other week .They removed a lot of incriminating evidence ,yet they where able to remove what they wanted from a crimenal investigating place,wow.
occult = of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies
cult = a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
Actually they are a state recognized religion. An offshoot of Mormons.
Funny, I could have sworn there were boys taken in the raid of the compound along with the girls.
Also, Elissa (the girl who testified against Warren Jeffs) was married off to a 19 year old boy. How in the heck did a 19 year old boy manage to a) not get dropped at the end of he road before reaching that age and b) get his hands on a 'wife' when those are supposed to be reserved for old men?
Since the police were in there like ants on an anthill going through everything with a fine tooth comb I doubt there was "truckloads" of incriminating evidence to be removed.
"Judge Barbara Walther approved a family service plan for reuniting 6-year-old Samuel with his mother Sharon Barlow, 35, who appeared in the courtroom. The boy is in state custody in Amarillo. The goal is reunification by April 13, 2009"
So this woman has to jump through CPS hoops for a YEAR to get her child back when there has been no evidence that this child (or any of her other children) has been neglected or abused in the first place????
"Texas Department of Family and Protective Services want to assess not only the educational ability of the boy but that of his mother as well. It wants Barlow to submit to a variety of tests to determine her vocational interests"
What the hell does her "vocational interests" have to do with proving if she's a good mother or not? How is that germaine to whether she is likely to neglect or abuse her children?
This woman has been charged with nothing, has not had the benefit of due proess but has essentially been sentenced to a year of probation and had her child taken away.
It just can't be right that this is happening in America.
"Lawyers for one mother said in court that copies of the Book of Mormon have been taken from the boys being housed at the Cal Farley's Boys Ranch in Amarillo. That irritated the judge. "I'd like to know why that was removed," said Judge Marilyn Aboussie. "I'd like to hear if there's a good reason. I can't think of one myself. There needs to be an excellent reason."
Gee, kind of makes you think CPS workers might have a predisposed prejudice against these people religion doesn't it? The article didn't mention what reason CPS gave for removing the Book of Mormon from the children so I'm not sure if it was 'excellent' or not.
Why does everyone keep making excuses for these people? Occult, cult what the hell makes a difference? These are men that are abusing their religion for sexual gain. Granted not all men are like this however most of them probably are. And what does it make a difference if there were a small or a large percentage of these boys being cast out, 1 cast out is 1 to many!
If you’re going to force your children to live this lifestyle then they should not be thrown out because they don’t have the education to survive in our world!
These men are throwing out the rebellion boys that they think might cause trouble so they give them the boot. God forbid if anyone should demand answers to the question, why.
I wonder what will happen to the ranch with no one [women and children] to tend the gardens, chicken coops and dairy cows. The last pictures of Pilot's, seems to the show the place getting brown and dusty. Does work still continue there?
Some interesting reading. Texas should be hoping someone will rewrite the constitution before this all gets finished in the courts. http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700225591,00.html?pg=1
"why are there still 100 children with no parents claiming them? "
CPS first said there were 31 teenaged girls who had either given birth or were pregnant. That number has been exposed to be exaggerated both intentionally and through incompetence. One girl was counted twice, two CPS actually knew to be adult women, one neither pregnant nor with any children who just refused the pregnancy test so got counted anyway, etc. One of the last articles I read said 2 dozen of these "girls" may be adults but CPS is still determining that. Given what we've learned about CPS's methods for getting their number of 31 and seeing that number dwindling by the day I'm not sold on there actually being 100 unclaimed children.
How many have been claimed only to have CPS decide they're not going to accept the mother claiming them as their real mother? How many were counted twice? Are the 31 supposed teenagers who might be adults counted in that 100? I just have a hard time trusting anything coming from CPS as the truth after seeing what happened with the "magic 31".
"Texas should be hoping someone will rewrite the constitution before this all gets finished in the courts."
Thank you for posting this link. This had me in tears. The abuse and neglect of these children is just unacceptable. The baby left in the stroller without food or drink for 24 hours and the little boy found in the empty colluseum. Who is going to go and take custody of these children away from CPS? So far I've seen more substantiated evidence of abuse from CPS than agains the FLDS.
What can we do? What can Americans across the country DO?? Demand via our own state representatives there be a federal investigation of these allegations? Contact George Bush and demand some immediate oversight?
Okay all you smart people - tell us what to do to stop this!!!
I wonder what Texans would think of thousands of men and women showing up at the court house dressed in prairie dresses (men too) to protest the violation of these peoples rights?
Look at the photos Pilot has posted. You can see separate and distinct residential buildings. It's kind of hard to tell but using the temple as a landmark there are at least 12 large buildings. There may be more that aren't in camera range because the photos were wide angle of the temple.
How can anybody see that and just declare this is one household? Based on what definition of household? I see multiple residences!
"An underpinning of the state's case for taking hundreds of FLDS children into custody continued to weaken Tuesday as officials acknowledged four more women whose ages were disputed are adults - including one who is 27"
How many is that now that told CPS their true ages and gave them valid state issued ID on the day of the raid? Nine?
The 27 year old was estimated by CPS to be 14! Oops!
CPS claimed the 'girls' and their families were all lying about their ages. Oops!
Republican Sen. Bob Deuell of Greenville wants to make the FLDS pay for this giant fiascal? I've got news for Sen Deuell ... Texas is going to foot its own bill for this and then make the FLDS families millionaires too.
183 comments:
I wonder if R17 stands for YFZ?
It looks like many of these families are separated between two and sometimes three locations.
Eldorado Success is reporting R17 equates to YFZ Ranch. Where are House of Hiding?
How far is it from Short Creek Utah to the YFZ? Looks like these men drive along way between families. Lots of Jeff's!
It is sad so see so many women with multiple surnames showing they have been stolen away from other men.
I hope this record is helpful in given some information about where family members are.
I empathize for the women, children and, yes, even the men who have devoted their lives to FLDS. I don't believe that all of the people have malicious intentions (which is shown by the men that have one wife or two wives at R17) but I do believe that they have come to accept this travesty as "the norm." I don't believe that the men just woke up one day thinking that they would abandon their wives and children in the twin towns. However, if you look at the Bishop's records, you will notice that most of them left their older wives (and the children they had with them) in other states, but I believe that it was a combination of their false prophet's instruction (along with their libido's desires) that made them leave their 40+ wives to go to Texas and begin a new life with their younger wives and children. Brainwashing and sex drives can't be wrong, can they? So sad how these cults play on the worldly desires... If the rest of us could have our secular/sexual desires confirmed by a prophet, who knows what this world would be like.
Anyone agree? I don't think evil was the intent of the masses. It was just a convenient confirmation. Disagree if you like.
KB
No wonder it is difficult to organize the families in units as the outside would. The long lists of wives and children are somewhat disorienting...
And some of the babies are 4 or 5 months old and have not names..... I can not imagine not naming my child by that age.
Why is it necessary to have a "House of Hiding"? Does that mean something other than the obvious?
I am trying very hard to understand these people and their way of life.
Angel
I cant download the file,
is anyone else finding the same problem?
Well, if these men left there older wives for younger ones thats pretty messed up. But hey if it was allowed the other way around to where the women could leave the old farts they got stuck with when they were 13 for an 18 year old so its equal then why not i guess. but its not equal, because the men know full well that as soon as their child brides turned 18 they would get left and end up with with the "old ones"
Ive been reading these posts really trying to understand this and how you live, as most people that are here that arent members i guess.
Whats sad about this is that I think if things were run more fairly and not by a male sexual ego society AND you could marry whom you choose at a legal age that you'd have more members.
Women now days want to be stay at home moms, want to go back to when men were men, women were women and the kids could be raised in a safe envirnment BUT your children arent safe. They are from outsiders but not from its own male members. All i know is, that its a shame it has to be the way its run.
You will notice the dates on the Roll, they are from the spring of 2007, many of the wife's and children left behind in the twin cities are probally among the woman and children that were at the ranch.
I noticed that too that children under 6 months didn't have a name.
anon 11:47, you wrote - I don't believe that all of the people have malicious intentions (which is shown by the men that have one wife or two wives at R17)
I couldn't download the list so I didn't see the ages of the members but my guess would be that the men with 1 or 2 wives were young. My understanding is that the men acquire more wives with age.
To download the list you will need ADOBE READER, this can be downloaded free off the internet.
I was suprised at the name of one of the families, and that one of the wifes and children were in Idaho, I thought Idaho was Blackmore territory.
Out of Curiosity.
How do the first-seconds wives act when their husband marries and brings in a younger woman for a new wife? Dont they/you get jealous, mean, nasty?
I noticed that some of them have more then two wifes i would think that the household could get pretty compatitius for attentions.
Interesting. Thanks for sharing. Is that a complete list of the compound? I would guess not since some weren't even in TX. I only glanced at it, to get a feel for the ages. From what I saw, there were 2 or 3 under 18 and no one under 16.
Well there you have it.... now you know CPS is lying there tails off to cover up what they have done to so many innocent little children.
well it dosent matter of there were any under 16 in the state of texas you can not marry until age 18
that is correct but many of the 16 and 17 year old wives already have two children. Do the math.
I thought these statistics might hed some light on our society.
When the figures of the investigation come out, we could then compare our society with theirs.
For your own information you can google Us teen pregnancy and abortion rates.
Teen Pregnancy Rates in the USA
by Victor C. Strasburger, MD
University of New Mexico School of Medicine
The United States has the highest teen pregnancy rate in the western world, despite the fact that our teens are not more sexually active than Swedish teens, or Canadian teens, or British teens.
Why? Because we don't educate about birth control in sex education classes, we don't discuss it at home, we don't give teens good access to it, and we don't advertise it in our media. Other countries do, and they are rewarded with low rates of teen pregnancy and teen abortions. But, you say, making condoms available in school-based clinics would ‘give kids the wrong idea’. In fact, 5 recent research studies indicate that it doesn't.
Educating teenagers about contraception makes them more likely to use contraception when they begin having sex, but it doesn't lower the age at first intercourse.
Why? Probably because the decision where and with whom to become sexually active is a very complicated one, rooted in family, peers, religion, the media, and individual personality factors. But the decision whether to contracept or not is a very simple one: is it available? If so, Ill use it. If not, I’m still going to have sex, but I’m not going to go out of my way to get birth control.
Until Americans get over their hysteria about giving young people access to birth control, we will continue to have the highest teen pregnancy rates in the western world. It's really that simple.
Victor C. Strasburger, MD University of New Mexico School of Medicine
Fact: One million teens in the USA will become pregnant over the next twelve months. Ninety-five percent of those pregnancies are unintended. About one third will end in abortion; one third will end in spontaneous miscarriage; and one third will continue their pregnancy to term and keep their baby.
More than half of them are 17 years old or younger when they have their first pregnancy.
Approximately 40 percent of young women become pregnant before they reach 20 years old.
The United States of America has double the adolescent pregnancy and birth rates of any other industrialized country.
The poorer the young woman, the more likely she will become a mother.
Less than one-third of teens who have babies before the age of 18 finish high school.
Almost half of all teen mothers end up on welfare.
Less than 25 percent of births to teens occur within wedlock.
The birth rate for teens has been declining in recent years.
I know that there is a high teen pregnancy in the United State and in the State of Texas. But they are not just singling these girls out.
Anytime there a girl has a baby in the state of Texas who is 16 or under the hospital will call CPS to notify them. CPS will then come to the hospital and investigate how and why she is pregnant. If it was due to neglect full supervision on the parents behalf or if the girls parents was letting her live with her boy friend or there is a good chance that the teenage mother and the baby will be brought into care. CPS will do everything in their power to keep the tow together if it in the best interest of the mother and the child. If it was do to teenage rebellion they will work with the teen and her family to prevent it from happening again.
They are not singling these girls out this s how it is done. IF the girls had been going to the hospital to have their babies CPS would have been involved a long time ago.
To 5/03/2008 12:05 PM
I am the wife that lives in Idaho and where I live is not Blackmore territory. I was not sent here by my husband, I came on my own accord. I was very sad when my husband went down there, but I could not support him in that decision. Thus my location.
I read Carolyn Jessop's book, and near the end she said Merril Jessop sent his family to the compound, but I didn't see Merril's family in those docs. Was that just a partial list?
330,000 abortions per year of 13-19year olds of which more than half are under 17.
330,000 miscarriages per year.
300,000 fatherless children to teens of which more than half are under 17. Thats 13-16.
Thanks Hollywood, TV, MTV, sex education, the public school system, Oh and lest we forget, FREEDOM for all.
What on earth would the numbers be without the pill and other contraceptives.
And what does this colledge educated 'free' M.D. advise.
He says, that we ought to get over our 'HYSTERIA' ABOUT SUPPLYING BIRTH CONTROL TO OUR TEENS.
OH GOD BLESS THE GOOD OLD U.S. OF A AND ALL WHO SAIL (SINK) WITH HER.
No wonder people with an eye on God wish to be separate from our culture.
anonymous 12:05
Obviously you made the right decision.
You are to be respected for that.
Thanks, Hose- It made for very interesting reading.I have been trying to read all the posts back to the beginnings of this blog [a daunting task!! OTS's post, even then were long and rambling!]and many of the names are familiar from all the reading. Family and friends have been looking for something just like this, to find missing family and friends! I hope it brings some comfort to those seeking people. I realize it's a year old list, but anything can be of help when all is so secret!
I also am interested in the term 'House of hiding' if anyone can explain that.
A tad off topic question tho--who is tending the fields and caring for the place if most of the people are gone or hiding? In the pictures that pilot took most recently, the place is looking sorta brown and untended.
I don't blame you.
kli 6:56PM--thanks for mentioning that! I forgot to ask about Merril Jessop and family on my previous post. I did notice his name wasn't among the others. Since he is supposedly running the place [per previous posts]is he exempt from being counted? How about others that might be "missing" on the rolls?
And who is caring for Warren Jeff's wives/children? Since the huge house, in the compound, is supposed to be his, I presume the wives and children all live there?
[If all this is all on previous posts, I apologize, there are just tooooo many to read, at times.]
Perhaps I'm not doing the math too well but from what I can gather on the list not many of them were 16 when they started having children.
And I don't see anyone on there that had a kid at 14 or 15.
And since at 16 your parents can sign for you to get married I don't know how this list helps the prosecution.
I don't have a problem with men having more than one wife. So long as everyone is of age according to the law of the land, go for it, dudes.
I read somewhere that the man "Neilson" with the 21 wives was in charge.
To the Wife that made the choice to go to Idaho instead of the ranch, I hope your family is happily reunited.
To the answer the question of jealousy, when you have been brought up in homes with Pural wifes it is the norm, adding wifes is expected celebrated.
Age is not the only factor for adding wifes, a mans standing in the community is also a factor.
That which is held Holy is trashed, while the false love of this world removes innocent babes from loving mothers, to have them defiled and seduced by the hedonistic.
The Herodians rule again while Rachel weeps in Bethlehem, and unless Herodias can have someone's head on a charger they shall not rest.
Upon whose heads shall the travesties lie.
It is upon your oh Texas and your childrens.
A blot you shall hardly remove, a stain eternally upon your name and inhabitants, and a price to be exacted.
One of the reporters yesterday tried to talk to an exiting FLDS member in a 4 door 4X4 pickup at the gate. He would not speak to the reporter but the reporter noticed the entire back seat and pick-up bed were full of suit-cases. Also the pilot reported no activity at all at the compound and fewer vehicles. Is this the Exodus? Where would they go that the states would not be far behind them?
HUH? Is this a new revelation from the "profit"?
Co-sign Anon 4:10 post.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name, and in thy name have cast out devils, and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them: I never knew you; depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
The day soon cometh when all that opposeth God and exalt itself against Him, will be judged in the balance!!
From the Coming (Now) Crisis
Hence priests are doing so much, often unwittingly, to blind the eyes of the people, so that they shall not see the approaching crisis in its true character until the catastrophe is completed, and Great Babylon and all her lofty cities, great wealth, princely merchants, chief captains, and mighty sovereigns, are laid low in one general ruin. Oh ye great and strong nations! ye philosophers and religionists! ye spiritual mediums and ye revelators, sitting upon thrones over great nations! how can you fulfill the prophecies that are so clearly revealed, concerning the destructions of the last days! Ye perhaps marvel that the great men and governors over one hundred and twenty-seven provinces in ancient Babylon, with a brave monarch at their head, should have been such firm believers in the astrologers, magicians, and interpreters of dreams, in their days! But marvel not, for when the greater power of the like class of persons, under the direction of Satan, shall be brought to bear in your own day, the delusion will be so much stronger that Princes, Presidents, Governors, and chief Captains, will be constrained to bow to it. Their credulity will be taxed beyond the power of resistance. The workers of these mysterious and supernatural arts will bring to their aid both natural and supernatural causes that will challenge and defy disputation. The senses and judgment of men cannot withstand such imperative facts as will arrest their observations. For it cannot be denied that facts and truths will constitute such a measure of the ingredients of these mysterious and wonderful arts as to give them an irresistible strength of conviction to those who are unenlightened by the Spirit of God. And so far as facts and truth are mingled, it must also be acknowledged that God, the true and living Sovereign of Heaven and Earth, will contribute to produce the delusion. He has said that “He will send them strong delusions that they might believe a lie.” He gives his reason and apology for acting after this stranger mannerþbecause, knowing the truth, they do not love it unadulterated. And knowing God, they do not choose to glorify Him as God. Therefore their foolish hearts become darkened, and God suffers Satan to compound and mix up truth and error in such proportions as to be captivating and strongly delusive. As a snare, this composition will be ingeniously mixed and administered to all nations, by skillful and practiced hands.
If you haven't read or don't even know about the coming crisis, the by all means, go get it, especially the LDS
For your convenience I will provide a link.
http://truthsoughtandfound.wordpress.com/2007/09/26/the-coming-crisis-how-to-meet-it/
Wow - these FLDS men are serious chickens. Running and hiding, and hiding behind their wives' pioneer skirts. Impressive.
Thank you for reminding me about Warren Jeff's wives and children. It seems strange that Warren and Merril Jessop's families are absent from those rolls.
Reports show that FLDS are not abandoning the YFZ. They are going to different parts of the state temporarily to be with their children.
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_9155045
More and more truth comes out. The bed was a distraction, the reports of child brides being the norm and throughout the compound were false, they initial call was false.
Keep following the media and you will continue to be the zombie they want you to be. The real facts are coming out. The cps and state of texas is going to everything in its power to not look as bad as they should and the media can surely help in that area.
Sad day for american rights and the 400+ children that were literally ripped from their home.
-fax
Also, as I stated previously in another thread. This whole thing was caused by the one person with a big ole axe to grind. Flora Jessop. She convinced the authorities almost single handedly they needed to remove every single child.
Shame on you Flora. I know what you went through was probably a personal hell and you feel it's your obligation to save every child you can but there simply needs be evidence of wrongdoing, not just contrived stories.
-fax
Firstly, CPS cannot and so therefore will not release their evidence until the cases are taken to court. They must provide the defendants with the information, and THEY can release exactly what they want to the public and media. CPS CANNOT!! Therefore, they don't have the ability to tell the public all that they have, but there are strict rules about how something like this is handled. They have the "protect" the privacy of the children. The parents and their spokespersons are free to say whatever they want to the public. What I would like to see is the fathers/celestial husbands standing by all their wives, proclaiming that he wants his children back. Why haven't they done this?? Oh yeah, because it would be so creepy to see a 70+ year old man with brides that range from 18-and up(the younger ones are in custody, so they wouldn't be in these media events!)I don't care about polygomy, to each their own, but not to this cult!!
Jill or Flora, how in the world many screen names do you have?
Jill's is right. Legally, CPS has to keep its mouth shut.
FLDS members should hold off on the victory dance until the cases are tried, otherwise there could be some crow-eating.
I too would like to see the husbands stand along side their wives.
These records are incomplete or outdated. There are two major families missing. Some listed as living in Colorado City were at YFZ.
A few women I recognize on the news are not listed. Some of the children in custody are from elsewhere, and have birth parents in other places that were not at R17 at tome of raid.
The parents of those children are fearful to step forward.
R17 has been moved on from.
Seriously, where are all the fathers and husbands? Why aren't they out there fighting for their children?
I'm tired of reading posts where statistics of teenage pregnancies, abortions and child abuse are posted regarding the children in the US that are not FLDS.
I read one post that said that there were 330,000 (or somewhere around there) teenagers in the US gave birth.....yes it is sad, but how many children total are in the US? I wish someone would post the PERCENTAGE of teengage girl's pregnancies rather than just a number. Either way....the MAJORITY of the children in the US are raised by parents that care. Don't get me wrong, there are plenty of people that shouldn't even be allowed to have children because they don't take the time to care for them and guide them. For whatever reason, their children are NOT their priortiy.
For the posters saying things about the awful outside world that is not FLDS...HA! You believe we (the general US population) are judging the FLDS on rumors and speculation...is that not the exact same thing you're doing regarding the outside world? Do you believe you are learning about us properly from inside a locked compound where you only hear what others are saying about it? How about, like the amish, you let your kids use what you as parents taught them and let them go into the world and see if they would like to return to the FLDS and its lifestyle. And, if they found that they would like to be a vetrinarian or a social worker instead of a baby making machine and a fourth or fifth wife that you still love and accept them because YOU TAUGHT THEM that they should make good choices. That they have morals to live by that make them good people. That even though Joe blow down the street is doing drugs that your children HAVE THEIR OWN MINDS and YOUR WONDERFUL PARENTING that taught them to tell Joe Blow that no, they don't want to do drugs with him or anyone else that is doing drugs.
I have children. I love my children more than anything in the world. They are EDUCATED so they have CHOICES to decide ON THEIR OWN (not due to brainwashing or fear of losing family) how they want to live their lives. If I believed in one thing I would guide them as much as I could and show them why I believe it and if they decide to follow in my footsteps I would be proud. BUT, if they decide to take a different path at least since I educated them to make good choices and I am confident in my parenting, I know that they will make great choices even if they do not believe in everything I do. I will not banish them for choosing differently. I LOVE them unconditionally. They should be able to make their own choices in life.
Why not let them make their own choices? Why not show them what is on the outside and they can take the good things from it rather than being so afraid?
And to the poster above Hedonism is about pleasure...I guess I'm a hedonist since I have a pleasurable life revolving around the devotion to my children, the pleasure of watching them make a mistake and learning from it, the pleasure of seeing all the things they can learn and absorb, the pleasure of the love in our family and friends, the pleasure of feeling good that I am doing something to help others, the pleasure in seeing the difference I make by taking that extra minute to help one of my students so their day is better, the pleasure in seeing my kids play and have fun, the pleasure of teaching them about spirituality and how to help others because it makes us feel good inside, the pleasure of seeing the kids at the hospital when we drop toys off to them because they are stuck in the hospital for weeks because they are terminally ill......I don't mind being a hedonist seeing all these things. It seems to me that hedonism isn't a bad thing unless your dirty mind is basing it on sexual hedonism.
The FLDS are no different from anyone. They point the finger at the outside world yet cry when we do the same thing.
Also, has anyone notice that the FLDS websites don't say ANYTHING about ANYTHING? They show pictures of crying children and sad mothers. I could make a website about my family and say we are sad the FLDS thinks we are so bad and show pictures of my family crying too and I could say on a website that we want our children back if the FLDS came and took them away....but you know what, my husband would be out there stomping the pavement 24 hours a day seven days a week..at every courthouse and state official's office he could find. And he would be saying question me, poke me, torture me do anything to me so that I can prove to you that my children are important to me and I want them back and can't live without them. My husband WOULD NOT sit back from afar while I was out working so hard to get them back. He would be right by my side...where are the fathers?
The more posts I read where the FLDS are slamming other relgions and lifestyles the more I get sick...funny that they are sad that people criticize them, yet they are doing the EXACT same thing.
the parents of the canadian girl have come forward, they are keeping her idenity a secret to protect her. Apparently she was in Texas visiting her Grandmother.
Why would they leave a place they put so much work into? Who else would have use for it?
The roll was made up in the spring of 2007, Warren was in Jail at that time, there was no head of household to comprize a list, but wouldn't his family have been close to where he was in prison.
AMEN, 7:33 anon!!
Native Texan, you say until the cases are tried? What cases are going to be tried? No charges have been filed against anyone. That's the most bizaar aspect of this case. They don't have to show the public the evidence but they will have ot show the court and thus far how much has been admitted under seal? The facts are slowly showing the media and Texas grossly over exagerated the child bride aspect, the bed in the church and the broken bones as well as the underage pregnancies.
We shall see how things progress. As far as the men standing by their ladies, I think we are seeing how important the ladies roll in the community really is. They aren't all mind controlled, sexually abused victims. Many are strong, smart and passionate women. They need to charge those who are known to have raped or abused, I think there were a total of 4 men who had underage wives on that outdated list. That's a start. Release these kids and their mothers. Build your case against the child abusers and let everone go forward. Stop messing with peoples lives who have committed no wrongdoing.
-fax
In the beginning before they called them selves FLDS and seven Profits ago, these people were just Mormans wanting to practice the Principal. They were not supposed to draw attention to themselves, but with each Profit adding new rules and this last one, the one that appointed himself, building a Temple out of limestone that is visible from outerspace. We have all heard of the tower of BABAL.
-fax you are right, there are many very strong woman in the FLDS, but there are also those who are not strong enough to save themselves.
fax said: "As far as the men standing by their ladies, I think we are seeing how important the ladies roll in the community really is"
Nice try, trying to spin that into something positive. Everyone knows it's crap though. If you read any of the books out by women who escaped this cult, the brainwashing is extensive and severe. The fact that the men have disappeared and aren't facing the situation makes them look like what they are: spiritually misguided sexual predators.
If you click on HERE and go to the Edorado Suscess site they have posted some interesting pictures of the raid.
anon, can you redo that link? It doesn't work.
Thanks for sharing the Bishop's roll.
It was the most bizarre thing I believe I have ever read.
So creep it made me shudder.
I can't believe that it was produced in 2007 instead of 1807.
It ablsolutely makes my skin crawl.
Nice try, trying to spin that into something positive. Everyone knows it's crap though. If you read any of the books out by women who escaped this cult, the brainwashing is extensive and severe. The fact that the men have disappeared and aren't facing the situation makes them look like what they are: spiritually misguided sexual predators.
Looks to me, these women wrote books only to sell books. From what I have seen of these books the exageration ranks right up there with the State of Texico
Fax,
Let's keep our perspective here. Authorities entered YFZ only a month ago. This is not "fast food" justice.
Their cases will be presented to a closed courtrooom for either a judge or jury to decide upon. Texas has a responsibility to the children and their parents - not the court of public opinion.
As for the FLDS ladies that we all saw on television, I had the opposite impression. They spoke in very monotone voices and only answered questions posed - no elaborating whatsoever. My impression was that they had been trained to speak when spoken to.
The link is on the Blog Bishop's list. Go HERE...once you open it scroll down.
anon 3:10,
Yeah, you're right. Has it ever occurred to you that these women didn't realize how RIDICULOUS their lives were until they gained some healthy perspective?
If even half of what they said was true, they deserve every penny they make on those book sales.
This is the work of God, and woe! be unto us if we do not preach the Gospel! Woe! be unto us if we relinquish or attempt to sell or barter or compromise one of the eternal principles that have been sent down from the heavens and which we have to carry to the ends of the earth! But if we are faithful to our mission and calling, if we stand firm and true, and regard God rather than man, God shall fight our battles. Everything that seems to be against us will be turned for our good. The clouds that overshadow us from time to time will part and roll away, and the glorious sun of prosperity will shine upon us. If we are true and faithful God Almighty will overrule all things for our good, and bring us off more than conquerors. And every nation and people and institution and society that fight against Zion shall become like the dream of a night vision-it will pass away; and those men that fight against this work will be, as the prophet said, "Even as when a hungry man dreameth, and, behold, he eateth; but he awaketh and his soul is empty: or as when a thirsty man dreameth, and, behold, he drinketh; but he awaketh, and, behold, he is faint, and his soul hath appetite." So it will be with all who fight against this work and try to overthrow it. Not because we are mightier than anybody else, not because we are so numerous, not because we are learned, not because we are wealthy, but because God Almighty has established this work, and He will cause it to prevail. I bear my testimony that I know this to be true.
The list shows a significant number of underage girls in sexual relationships with adult married men -- and nobody in the community reported this to the authorities. Shameful.
If FLDS men want to take WILLING ADULT women as their concubines, so be it, but leave the children alone.
Well enough said,
But God's work must be the truth.
Only the truth will prevail.
We FLDs are not always right, nor did Brother Joseph reveal everything correct.
All Faith based in a God of goodness will assist us to move closer to God, but all faith not based in absolute truth will eventualy be done away with.
I could make mention of a few points that are technically incorrect from Brother Josephs words, but I fear that we are too addicted to our comfort zones and do not love truth sufficiently, so I will refrain.
could make mention of a few points that are technically incorrect from Brother Josephs words, but I fear that we are too addicted to our comfort zones and do not love truth sufficiently, so I will refrain.
5/07/2008 1:32 AM
-----------------------------
through what source do you learn that "Brother Joseph's words were incorrect"?
Yes, I was living in Short Creek and I do know most of the "lost boys"
Yes, they all left voluntarily so they wouldn't have to live up to the rules in their homes (party, booze), or some were asked out for not living up to the rules of their homes. (Most over 18). None of the minor boys were "dropped off". Their parents did seek for them when they took off, but the older boys (if they were FLDS they would be called Adult Men) would cover for them when their parents came looking. They each have their own story, but they all left more than willingly. Resources? Sorry, that made me laugh. Some of these guys were hard workers, others freeloaders. They are in this picture for one reason, and that is to get money from Dan Fischer.
The "Lost Boy's" term and the "dropped off" stories came from Shem Fischer and his brother Dan Fischer. Dan left the church over a decade ago, and was rather bitter but not until Shem came running to him claiming to having been unjustly fired from his job (his resignation letter said otherwise), did he decide to join the crusade. They filed four lawsuits at the same time, and this was one of them. After the big media campaign and the lawsuits, the underage boys now had a place to hide behind to avoid going home. Just say "I'm a lost boy" Instead of making them go home, the crusaders would "protect" them from the polygamists.
Funny, "Lost Boy" is an insult to most of them now.
I know several fellows who had left the church and came back a few years later, but it depends on how they "sowed their oats". It's a whole lot easier just to stay.
Many shall come from the east and from the west, and from the north and from the south, and shall sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the Kingdom of God;" while others who supposed themselves to be the children of the Kingdom" will be "thrust out." And I am afraid that a great many of our good Christian friends who are so terribly shocked about this feature of our faith, when they get to the door and look in and see Abraham and Sarah and Hagar and Keturah, and those concubines given of the Lord to Abraham-when they see them in the eternal kingdom they will want to turn away and go to more congenial company, which they are at perfect liberty to do. If Abraham was on the earth to-day, these same good people would put him in the penitentiary, and yet they call Abraham "the father of the faithful, the friend of God," and want to go to his bosom when they die! If Jacob were here with his four wives, through whom he "did build the house of Israel," the names of whose twelve sons are to be inscribed upon the gates of the holy city, the New Jerusalem, that is to come down from God out of heaven like a bride adorned for her husband-I say if Jacob were on the earth to-day, they would put him in jail! Well, this is the consistency of some people who profess to believe in the Bible. Men come here to try and sell the Latter-day Saints the Bible. Why, bless your souls, there are no people on the earth who believe as much in the Bible as the "Mormons." We believe in the Old and New Testament, King James' translation. It was through our belief in that record that most of us became Latter-day Saints; for, being familiar with the Bible, when the servants of God came with the Gospel we found it was the same as laid down that sacred record, and that induced us to embrace the faith that is commonly called "Mormonism."
yawn
Abraham took Hagar to 'wife' because Sarah feared he would never have a son to fulfill God's plan for him. He took Keturah after Sarah's death. Polygyny (many woman) is Biblecal, when the Isralites were in the desert God gave them rules on whom a man could have sexual relations with. One was that a man was not to have both a Mother and her daughter or granddaughter. A daughter of his Father or Mother. His Father's Sister or his Mothers Sister. Now one whould clue in that would mean your Bothers daughter or Sister daugter as well. In the New Testament Jesus talked about divorce, one could interpert that to mean that only a man only comittes adultery when he has sexual relations with a woman whos husband is living. Even David put Bathseba's husband in the front of the troups so he would get killed and then David could take her to wife. But this whole thing is not about Polygamy it is about having sexual relations with someone who is too young to consent.
And when you People learn that even an atheist can know every word of the BIBLE and not be SAVED.
7:15
Whenever a person says "all", they are most always lying. Notice I didn't say "always", but "most always".
Maybe you might check with Roger Hoole. You might find a few minors kicked out with the FLDS getting money on their destroyed credit. What a den of thieves!
There is not one underage marriage in The FLDS Raid. Its another Hoax again. Not one girl is underage. They are extremely desperate so they make up another lie ,broken bones and molestation. I feel sorry for the the CPS. What are they going to do now PLANT DRUGS. THEY BETTER GIVE THOSE CHILDREN BACK TO THEIR MOTHERS NOW. God is watching from a distance.
To - 5/7/08 6.24
Is that a sincere question?
The post was sincere.
If one has love in their hearts, they want the best for their people and all people.
If one has sought to know God, to really understand God, and they come/bring within themselves the capacity to accept and live or live the highest truths available, as I did, then one can be led to understand more than we had.
That I have done, God led me.
If you have a real question I am pleased to respond, but, how a question is asked determines how it is answered.
If you do not believe in a given question, (that it is a question)then you are hardly ready for an answer different than what you presently believe.
So what real question do ytou have in your heart about God and our doctrine, ask me that.
But I am not on here to be frivolous, and will not participate in time wasting.
well said again 7.26
Not one minor was kicked out. Not one boy was ever lost. This story of 400 boys was made up.. I have 3 sons that live in Colorado City and they are still living with me. What about the 1200 boys that are not lost. If a boy ever left it was because he chose to and nothing else. Flora mae jessop started this whole thing. I have 6 daughters that are over 18 and they are still not married. This underage stuff is just crap. It is a drive to sell anti polygamous litature,to drive the media and to sell news. Shame on all of you. Quit quoting Flora and Carolyn you would make more money if you told the truth. If you want to make money just be truthful. Stay away from flora the stripper and carolyn the modern day Jezebel. My family is in the raid. BRING THOSE CHILDREN HOME AND I MEAN IT NOW!!!!
If polygamists believe Joseph Smith to be a prophet and that he received a revelation regarding the practice of polygamy, why then do they not adhere to the 12th Article of Faith, also from Joseph Smith?
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
Just a Question.
Since Kings,presidents rulers and magistrates,are elected by the people to uphold the law. They are there for us help us uphold the law. Since they are elected by popular vote, in other words who ever has the most votes wins the election. That does not mean that they can break the law. They must uphold the Supreme Law of the Land. If they don't they will be proscuted to the full extent of the law. You noticed that it said sustaining the LAW!!If laws are passed that persecute and drive the inocent then What? Congress shall make no laws in the establishment of religion. They who pass these laws are now breaking the laws. We will then be subject to officials that uphold the laws. Not wicked officials. Joseph Smith said there was one thing that was not right and that was if elected officials did not abide by the laws that they would be punished. They should all be rounded up and prosecuted for all of this.
"Shame on all of you. Quit quoting Flora and Carolyn you would make more money if you told the truth. If you want to make money just be truthful. Stay away from flora the stripper and carolyn the modern day Jezebel. My family is in the raid. BRING THOSE CHILDREN HOME AND I MEAN IT NOW!!!! -- Anom 3:02
if true what you say
then those two are better witches
than your prophet a prophet
sounds to me
your battle is not with texas
but rather Satan himself
...take it up with him
otherwise,
if what those two say is true
and you want those kids back?
then go to court and wait your turn
no different than the parents of the other 32,0000 fostered kids in texas
that screwed up
just like you
keep sweet texas
stg
Truth, Justice and Righteousness are the law.
Where any written statues are found to contradict truth, justice
and righteousness, they are to be ignored and substituted with what is true, righteous and dictated by the spirit justice.
I do not need God or a prophetic spirit to tell me this. Do you?
2:58
If you FLDS don't quit your lying, these children aren't coming home.
First of all, I think we can answer the question that's been on everyone's mind: where are all the FLDS men?
SITTING AT THEIR COMPUTERS POSTING ON THIS THREAD.
Secondly, thank you to whomever is posting all the mormonism propaganda.
Now tell me the part about the Celestial Kingdom and how all the men are getting their own planets on which they get multiple wives who will remain eternally pregnant in order to populate their planet?
SWEET. Now how do you keep the ladies from finding out the...."ending"?
Women of the FLDS, you believe blindly in your doctrine and I share your mourning. I know you cannot shed true tears, yet why do you shed tears to the public which are not true. You are not suppose to show emotion, you deny your children toys and things which as children they need to evolve. Yes, it was dictated by a male prophet to obey blindly, what options do you have? You were never shown any options other than "To The Battering". It is comforting having someone else make choices for you, but remember you have the capacity to make choices too. There have been too many prophets over the centuries, none have proved truthful, they have all deceived. The true Grail is in your heart, look within.
If you nonflds would quit your lying our children would be home
After reading the Bishop's Family records I am just curious to know, Why are the authorities not arresting these older men that without a fact are having SEX with children? If it was a document seized in a drug-raid or any other type of raid where a document that was hand written indicated sex with a minor they would be apprehended and charged. And the house of hiding "hiding" is obviously the sucluded area he bought through Dale for his get away. There is obviously alot more that Warren Jeffs had going on, more then his followers could ever imagine. He should be ashamed of himself along with the "Men and Women" that were obviously religiously prostituting their children.
Anon 4:02,
First of all, you think all the elected officials should be "rounded up and prosecuted for all this"? How is your thinking any different than that which you criticize?
Secondly, the elected officials are trying to protect the innocent women and children, who are considered citizens (equal to men) in the eyes of the law. I'm sure many of these men haven't actually committed any of the crimes involving underaged girls, but shame on them for looking the other way. There's an expression that goes something like this: show me your friends and I'll tell you who you are.
Everyone has been wondering where all the hubands and fathers of YFZ have gone. I think I know: sitting at computers posting on this thread.
If everyone who wrote a book about their experience in the FLDS is lying... then why doesn't a current member write a book about what its really like!!! Tell us about it!
That will never happen. I don't think it just happens that everyone is making up these stories. And so what if they wrote their books to make money... why else do people write books??? That doesnt mean they are lying!
I agree with 3:48 anon. I'd like to read a book written by someone from within who's had a good experience.
Also, how many of you on the inside of the FLDS have actually read their books? It stands to reason that if you're forbidden to have contact with those who've fled, then you're probably discouraged from rushing out to buy their books. Even if you'd take the time to read them, you wouldn't understand how their stories sound to the rest of us. It's all about perspective.
I give the "apostates" lots of credit for writing about their experiences. Their unique perspective of having been on both sides of the fence makes the books worthwhile to a lot of people.
If even a portion of what they have written about is true, they deserve to make money on their books - piles of it.
I suspect that some of the men will become too holy to fight for their family and will leave their wife to fight custody alone. After all, they have already left family in CC and Hildale while they started over with a young girl or two. The women won't be able to join their "holy" husbands in hiding until they are worthy enough for the Lord to fight their battles and get the women back.
To Anonymous 5/07/2008 4:02 PM
"Joseph Smith said there was one thing that was not right and that was if elected officials did not abide by the laws that they would be punished. They should all be rounded up and prosecuted for all of this."
First of all, please give this reference of what Joseph Smith said.
Yes, I agree, if someone breaks the law, CPS or others, they should be prosecuted.
Who is going to do the punishing, you?
To Anon. 5/07/2008 2:58 PM
To the father living in Colorado City now, you say "This underage stuff is just crap. It is a drive to sell anti polygamous litature,to drive the media and to sell news. Shame on all of you."
So, the Bishops Records showing 16 year old wifes is all made up to make who the money?
You all make Flora Jessop out to be some kind of super hero/villian, I always picture like cat woman. Why do you fear her?
The new Eldorado Succuss is out, front page news is that the trials start on the 19th with the cases being grouped by Mothers.
Those FLDS men. What a bunch of cowards. Sickening we haven't seen them anywhere. Absolutely disgusting. How could any woman follow the rules of such cowardly men? How could any woman believe that such losers would be worthy of touching even one of them? NEVER would I let a man that didn't fight for his children touch me with a ten, fifteen or even hundred foot pole. They should be ashamed.
FLDS women, get the heck out of there. You are stronger than any of those men. Quit letting them run your lives. Start running theirs.
Obviously they can't do the job. OBVIOUSLY the "prophet" is not professing the right messages from god.
Again, all I can say is disugsting cowardly men. What a shame.
Has it ever occurred to you that these women didn't realize how RIDICULOUS their lives were until they gained some healthy perspective?
Seeing that there are people who can successfully raise very large families has given me perspective.
Many of my female friends would love to have more than one or two children but can't afford it. It's a lot easier for the FLDS women to run away and work at Wal-Mart and live in a small apartment than it is for a "liberated" woman on the outside to have many children and live in a safe crime free environment.
It's easy to criticize a woman for being in a relationship in which she has to share her man with other women, but there are plenty of women on "the outside" with no men in their lives at all and some choose to bring babies into this world without any marital partner.
50% of US marriages end in divorce and many of those that don't end up in divorce are loveless. Stop acting as those women are brainwashed for not choosing your feminist utopia.
The desire to have a baby is one of the most basic of all animal instincts, no amount of public scoffing and government re-education classes is going to change this.
Sometimes the best thing to say; is to say nothing at all. A man's true strength can be shown by the ability to go against his desires to speak up and just remain silent.
OR Is it just; It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.
From an outsiders views;
The LDS Church has been going to great lengths to distance themselves from any group that lives a Plural Marriage lifestyle. These same people will be clamoring all over each other to accept this lifestyle once the supreme court rules that polygamy is equally acceptable to same-sex marriages, Polyamory, or single and multiple common-law relationships.
The original founders of the Short Creek group always considered themselves to be true LDS and not a part of those that chose "political correctness" over their beliefs. The FLDS is considered by many of these people to have split from these long held beliefs. The FLDS sees it as just the reverse.
These are only some of my thoughts about these religions. Can I be far off? Then correct me you wouldn't be the first.
I know a lot of LDS will not like my comments, but I think once legalized they would again embrace it.
"Stop acting as those women are brainwashed for not choosing your feminist utopia."
I'm not a feminist and I think having lots and lots of babies is wonderful.
But this polygamist sect is abusive. These women are taught FROM BIRTH that they have no choice - that they will go to hell if they leave.
How is that liberating? It's brainwashing and slavery. Not to mention all of it is based on lies. Joseph Smith was a liar (book of Abraham) and was driven by lust for girls (14 year old wife, lots of wives married to other men, etc).
This whole thing is just horrendous. These women are victims from birth.
I think that if God really believed in polygamy, he would have started the story with Adam and Eve... and Sarah and Ruth and Mary and Rebecca. But he didn't. :)
God didnt write Genesis, Moses did.
Anecdotally I presume, or from someone elses record, because he wasnt there.
If you buy the Genesis story as its related, it must include incest and brothers married to sisters.
Tell me more about your God?
7:08 -
"Obviously you're an FLDS man. Anyone who has children and loves them as they should would NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER NEVER say nothing at all after their kids are taken away from them. WHAT A JOKE!!!!! "
Obviously you're very wrong. Not and never been FLDS. What I see here is a group of men that have been victimized by their own religious leaders, remaining silent to protect those same leaders and being of the opinion that the State of Texas is wrong and will reunite their families. By speaking out they know they risk being like so many FLDS men that have had their families ripped apart by the same men they claim as their spiritual leaders.
This is not going to change until more of Warren Jeffs' henchmen join him, and the men that are also victims be given the chance to be known as victims.
I would guess "the meek shall inherit--"
Is there a list of the Men who were sent away by the Prophet from the children they Fathered? I think these men should stand together in the court, and demand their rights.
This whole past few coments are rediculas. Those not in the FLDS if you dont like the thought of having more then one woman to a household, not to be mean but so what. Its not your lifestyle.
if your going to argue and be angry it should not be about these women. a 16 yr old might not no the differance but an adult woman knows that theres an outside world and could leave if she choose to. Even if she was born into the lifestyle. But because she/they chooses not to leave does not mean that shes an idiot, or man controled. and lets face it i think that most women now days would love to be able to have a dozen children and have the luxary of being able to stay at home with them until there older atleast instead of working, but cant. Not to mention be able to raise our kids with out tv, violent video games etc.
If your going to argue about something then argue and prove your point about the children being married off and the possible abuse with age diffeances. and fight for the children not the women, because you dont believe in their choice to this type of marriage,unless they are asking for help. which happens to be non of your business, its their choice as adults just as it is yours for you to choose your own lifestyle,
As far as the children are concerned.
I think that unless the gov't is planning on totaly out-lawing this type of lifestyle in the whole US making it illiegal they should put these children back home immediatly.
Children are born everyday in these communities its not right to take these babies from there mothers if they are going to allow them to continue anyway it doesnt make sence. Im sure that the Texas camp isnt the only one having underage marriages. Unless they plan on taking every newborn away from these mothers when there born in ALL of the camps, they need to return them home.
They need to look at them as a whole and all at once or not at all. its pointless.
I was totally brainwashed! I was brainwashed starting as a teenaged girl that I should work outside the home and anything less meant that I was ignorant, a doormat to some man or just a wack-job religious nut. I was brainwashed to think that if I didn't go out and earn a paycheck nobody would consider me "equal". I was brainswashed to believe the only kind of man who would want me if I didn't have "earning power" would be some domineering monster who would treat me poorly.
I felt like I had it made when I graduated from high school and then completed a tech school making me cutting edge with new computer knowledge. My first clue that maybe all of this was B.S. came when the job placement program from the tech school refered the graduating females to 'administrative support' positions while the sole man in the program was sent to interview for a managerial position. This was in 1990's well after womens lib. He wasn't even in the top 5 of the class but he was ushered into the best and highest paying job available.
Then I got married and soon discovered that some men will dominate their women over money as easily as they will over cooking, cleaning and producing babies. I commuted an hour each way and worked 40 hours a week so my husband could have a house in the area he liked, a boat, snow machines, a new shiny truck, etc. I did not want these things but there they were in the driveway with no way to pay for them without the income I brought home. I thought earning my own money would make me equal!!! I guess that was B.S. too.
I had also been brainwashed that once I had my education and career I'd be set to have the kids I'd wanted all along and then I would "have it all". Enter three beautiful little angels. Broke my heart to leave them with someone else to enjoy while I drove away to have my "career". That turned out to be B.S. too because I could give a rip about how many reports I wrote, what clients I landed or how much money the company made during those years but it breaks my heart that I missed all that time of my kids' early years. I would go back and trade my career for that lost time with my kids in a NY second.
I quickly tired of bankrolling toys for a husband who had no regard for the anguish I felt leaving my kids in daycare to earn the money to pay for all his extravegances. Again I found out that my education, my career, etc. did not make me equal - that was only B.S. I had been brainwashed to believe. Three kids to raise and the law says their father only has to contribute a small percentage of his income to support them regardless of what their actual needs are. I, on the other hand, must provide for all their needs even it takes 100% of my income or requires me to work 2 jobs (which I did after the divorce).
I may sound bitter but there are millions of women just like me who believed the "brainwashing" we received thanks to the womens libbers. Thanks to that brainwashing I was convinced that wanting nothing more than to be a wife and mother made me ignorant, weak and vulnerable. Thanks to that brainwashing I was reduced to no more than an ATM machine.
The brainwashing continues by pointing to these FLDS women who want nothing more than to be mothers and wives and calling them weak, pathetic, etc. I guess that must really rankle you libbers who are so certain your way is the right way. Now that I'm older I wonder why you don't teach that the right way is for women to follow their own hearts desire whatever it might be? Even if that desire is so aweful to your own senses as something like I want to marry and have a house full of children?
Anything other than that is brainwashing regardless of which path you're pushing.
I was totally brainwashed! I was brainwashed starting as a teenaged girl that I should work outside the home and anything less meant that I was ignorant, a doormat to some man or just a wack-job religious nut. I was brainwashed to think that if I didn't go out and earn a paycheck nobody would consider me "equal". I was brainswashed to believe the only kind of man who would want me if I didn't have "earning power" would be some domineering monster who would treat me poorly.
I felt like I had it made when I graduated from high school and then completed a tech school making me cutting edge with new computer knowledge. My first clue that maybe all of this was B.S. came when the job placement program from the tech school refered the graduating females to 'administrative support' positions while the sole man in the program was sent to interview for a managerial position. This was in 1990's well after womens lib. He wasn't even in the top 5 of the class but he was ushered into the best and highest paying job available.
Then I got married and soon discovered that some men will dominate their women over money as easily as they will over cooking, cleaning and producing babies. I commuted an hour each way and worked 40 hours a week so my husband could have a house in the area he liked, a boat, snow machines, a new shiny truck, etc. I did not want these things but there they were in the driveway with no way to pay for them without the income I brought home. I thought earning my own money would make me equal!!! I guess that was B.S. too.
I had also been brainwashed that once I had my education and career I'd be set to have the kids I'd wanted all along and then I would "have it all". Enter three beautiful little angels. Broke my heart to leave them with someone else to enjoy while I drove away to have my "career". That turned out to be B.S. too because I could give a rip about how many reports I wrote, what clients I landed or how much money the company made during those years but it breaks my heart that I missed all that time of my kids' early years. I would go back and trade my career for that lost time with my kids in a NY second.
I quickly tired of bankrolling toys for a husband who had no regard for the anguish I felt leaving my kids in daycare to earn the money to pay for all his extravegances. Again I found out that my education, my career, etc. did not make me equal - that was only B.S. I had been brainwashed to believe. Three kids to raise and the law says their father only has to contribute a small percentage of his income to support them regardless of what their actual needs are. I, on the other hand, must provide for all their needs even it takes 100% of my income or requires me to work 2 jobs (which I did after the divorce).
I may sound bitter but there are millions of women just like me who believed the "brainwashing" we received thanks to the womens libbers. Thanks to that brainwashing I was convinced that wanting nothing more than to be a wife and mother made me ignorant, weak and vulnerable. Thanks to that brainwashing I was reduced to no more than an ATM machine.
The brainwashing continues by pointing to these FLDS women who want nothing more than to be mothers and wives and calling them weak, pathetic, etc. I guess that must really rankle you libbers who are so certain your way is the right way. Now that I'm older I wonder why you don't teach that the right way is for women to follow their own hearts desire whatever it might be? Even if that desire is so aweful to your own senses as something like I want to marry and have a house full of children?
Anything other than that is brainwashing regardless of which path you're pushing.
Anon 2:53,
The FLDS lifestyle HAS been outlawed in the entire US - both the polygamy and the underaged marriage. Where have you been?
Anon 11:51,
WAKE UP AND SMELL THE HYPOCRISY.
I was the one who first used the word "ridiculous" to describe that prison camp you seem to think of as utopia. You're way off - I'm not a feminist nor do I scoff at the desire to have a baby. I'm a stay at home mother of 3 who is considering having a 4th.
Another thing, I think it's humorous when you folks bring up the divorce stats in our country. Heck, your women have been "reassigned" and bartered so often your children don't even know who their biological parents are. From where I sit, it's a community that lacks any sense of commitment to one another. For example, WHERE ARE YOUR "MEN"?? I just think it's awfully bold of you to go there at this point.
I feel very thankful to have a family that knows who their biological mother is (me) AND knows who their biological father is. My husband loves ME for ME. I am 35 years old and he hasn't run off to get a younger sisterwife for "us". Believe me, honey, it's not in the cards. I am more than enough woman for him.
Everyone knows this ordeal is about religon!! Otherwise they would have only investigated the call they allegedlly got. I really upsets me that this is happening to these people. I dont understand their religon, but thats ok. People have the right to choose!
Annie,
The problem is that these women used to be children (14-16 years old) and were married off. It's a little late to "save" these gals who are in marriages with several children - and it's sad. You know as well as I do that underage marriage within the FLDS is now fairly common-place too. I mean, why not? It's not like as a young FLDS lady the leadership is going to make sure you get a good education. Heck, that would give you a few choices and you may not choose to stick around and find out who the prophet "chose" for you.
I don't think you can genuinely know what you want out of life in your teens. You may THINK you know what you want, but time and maturity reveal a lot.
I've read a few of your other posts and I enjoy hearing your perspective. You're FLDS, aren't you?
Anon 5:17,
You oversimplify and you're fooling yourself if you think these women are just moms who want to stay at home with their kids. That's not what this is about.
In the twin cities, many of the wives left their children with other sisterwives while they worked to contribute to the family income. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the women on the ranch worked at the dairy or other places during the day while their children were in others' care.
Also bear in mind that their leader took the liberty to "rearrange" the families as he saw fit. For example, if the husband wasn't "holy enough", he was asked to leave his family and community and not to contact them. The wives and children were then split up and given to different, more "worthy" men. These men then had every right and privilege with them that their husbands had only the day before. Can you imagine what the children were thinking and feeling?
This is a human rights issue.
If you're going to stand up for the women and the community at large, at least know your stuff.
If someone CHOOSES to be a stay at home mom more power to them. But, if someone is FORCED to be a mom because they don't have options because their PARENTS did not make sure they were properly educated then that is terribly wrong.
To the poster that keeps saying these women are brainwashed...if you were brainwashed and you had a child and then abusive things were happening to them, would you just sit and let it happen knowing how miserable and unhappy you were in the situation?
I was abused as a child (sexually by a relative) and grew up with it happening for many many years. Almost my whole entire childhood, but if you think that I would allow my child the same misfortune that I had then you are terribly wrong. You better believe that that will NEVER EVER happen to my child because I was brainwashed to believe that sexual abuse is ok.
Everyone has a gut feeling. I knew as I grew up more and more that even though I was told one thing my gut feelings told me otherwise.
No, Im not FLDS.
(bare with me this is a bit long but when you put in the fem movement coments on here it upsets me)
I dont condem anyone on their lifestyle like us everyone should have a choice as to how they choose to live there lives, as long as it doenst hurt children.
BUT as i have stated in previous post's i do not agree with the underage marriages and i have also said that I dont believe that any of these girls should be getting married until they are educated and able to make decision that are right for them.
I would think that if they came to their communities educated and had marriages of their own choosing that it would make a stronger healthier communtity and marriage and children, so i think that its a shame that it isnt that way.
After all if they are all raised from birth to be ritious then they should all be worthy of a good, healthy loving marriage even if their husbands are in their 20s not 50s.
as for the women that are allready married, im all pro for women and helping women dont get me wrong. however, when you have women that have been raised this way since birth like it or not its there normal life, as is yours to you.
So unless the govt is going to up heave this whole life style around the whole US whats being done in Tx is pointless, because if there is abuse going on then it will continue as more children are born, they need to return the children to their parents or atleast give the mothers a place to be with their children until this is solved before shoving them off into foster care, with the hopes that they will not want to return.
I see this as something thats not going to turn out good for these kids. Especially the older ones, they are being put in foster care, they are being mixed in with our kids, being shown a totaly differant life style which is ok for us, but i dont think for them.
BUT if they are or when they are returned how are they going to be? are they going to have changed so much that they wont be accepted back or that the boys will be pushed out when there 17 or 18 because of this, how many kids will commit suicide or have emotional problems even in their own communites once their returned because they no longer feel that they have a home in their society or out of it because they've changed so much.
As for the women, we all have a right to choose for ourselves. Now to say that they dont leave because they are ignorant is rediculas..
They all no about the outside world, they know especially now that they have a way out if they choose to and that they can leave w/there children if there not happy, and if i read right some have left, but to sit here and call them ignorant or stupid for making there own choices is wrong. Just because it wouldnt be your choice doenst mean it wouldnt be theirs.
I'm not going to sit here on a high horse (like some of you seem to be) and say that they are wrong in staying because who am i to judge another womens decision when ive made plenty of mistakes of my own, and im not FLDS. We make them, we grow as an adult as they do, we learn and choose wiser decisions next time, if thats for them to stay they stay, if its to leave they leave.
I do think that we have been taking the real issue of protecting the children onto the issue of their marriages. I could care less how many women these men have as long as their (ie women) are happy with this and there not married off when there children themselves. and lets be honest here ladies, how many of you could care less if you get it once a month? our bodies are bred to say no, so we arent popping kids out like rabbits, and theres are ready for yes yes yes so when we are ready, they can go at a dimes notice. So for them to have more then one wife, if i didnt have to put up with that everynight i might consider it to lol.
For underage marriages -unfortunatly this seems to be the norm and maybe after this the abuse that has occured in some of these homes (which it has because there were what 31 girls under 17 either pregant or had allready had babies?) wont again happen after this.
I just think that its a shame that this has to happen and that there are so many bad points to living like this, because if there were more choices for these women (and the boys), to atleast finish high school and to be able to choose for themselves on their marriages it could be a better place and they'd probely have more members coming to them.
Im going to get alot of crap on this from the fem's but i really dont care --> because frankly i think that our society in itself is pretty ****** up.
We have children now that are killing each other in schools, drugs (not just in inner cities anymore), gang violance between our kids, and the list goes on and on, and all of this i put on the parents, because we no longer raise our children properly by the mothers staying at home. Our children dont know the differance from right and wrong, and with the violance that they experience with tv and videogames they arent sensitized to this anymore. They dont see anything wrong with 8 girls ganging up on a single girl.
We have children growing up in day care centers not being raised by their mothers, we have a role reversal of boys growing up now expecting the women to take care of them (work wise). I dont think that i have ever seen more dead beat dads ever, because they dont want to work.
Now if we want to talk about child abuse it goes both ways in their community and ours.
and I think that the majority of the problem with kids now on our part is because we as mothers are no longer at home.
I think that there are more women out there that would like to be able to stay at home but there families cant afford it now because of the fem movement that have been going on in the past and now. We have made our society and incomes depend not only on the mans job but ours as well.
Ladies sorry but we've somewhat messed up our society with this fem crap. Granted we have more work opertunties and jobs but we still dont have equal pay, equal anything in the work place unless we put out or show cleavage, and now our children are being raised by everyone but us.
and talk about child abuse, how many of you/our children are being abused by people in day care centers, and by babysitters? How does that rate you as a mother when you take the chance of putting your children in these places when you know that they are at a higher risk of being shoved in a crib all day with no stimulation, having their limbs yanked and pulled on as their dragged around, which i have witnessed peronally from a friend that manages a center, who has to fire an avg. of 1 caretaker a month because of child abuse & arms being pulled out of their sockets from yanking.
Go fem-movement (NOT)
11:05,
you know I'm right.
at what exactly and to which coment/times are you talking about since your posting as anonymous. I think that if you want good responses you should atleast post with some type of name so we know to whom we are talking to as does everyone else.
right as in how?
to underage marriages?
I do not agree, so you might be right on that topic, but then again i dont no to which coment that your replying about.
Do i agree that these women have been brought up in a way that might not be right, and they have no options or choices, yes i do, but theres nothing that can be done about it unless again the govt interveens with THEM ALL.
There were what over 400 children removed from this compound, are u willing to have THOUSANDS taken from their mothers on your conscience, for YOUR believes?
Pedophiles and abuse of age marriage. yes and yes, but not all.
But then again we have pedophiles in our own society dont we? we have children being molested in our own society, as it will happen in any type of community. If your neighbor gets convicted as a pedophile does that mean you are one to? and your children should be removed also? No.
The only thing that can be done is hope that this will stop any future underage marriages so that the women may have futures and choices (if they wish it to be).
but if they dont respect their choice and stop throwing stones.
Annie long winded responses often don't get read.
If everyone would have stated their correct name, kept that same name, and each mother kept her brood together and kept all their identity bands in place then the Judge would have known whom everyone was and allowed them to go to their own homes.
Their are many Polygamists out there in the US and Canada, it isn't something the FLDS came up with...
When God created Man (male and female)he blessed them and told them to go out and multiply and replenish the Earth. 2x2 is 4 I did my part.
Dianna
Bishops records = marriages of 16 year olds! Fact
Reassigned wifes and children! Fact
No one really knows who the biological father is until DNA is done, and he may be in Canada, Idaho, Colorado, Utah, Arizona, or who knows where.
WHAT A MESS!
From: James
It would be great if there was a blog that non polygamists could ask polygamists questions about their beliefs and lifestyles, in a civilized, respectful manner, without all the name calling and prejudice. There is much misunderstanding on both sides of the fence.
I think its funny that even those not FLDS get jumped on when voicing an opinion that isnt feminist or an opinion that is not with someone else's
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Annie long winded responses often don't get read.5/12/2008 8:59 AM
- neither do short and stupid ones, or ones with biased attitudes. and im sick of people cutting on these women because they dont share there views.
a real pro-woman as some of you seem to think you are, will listen to these women, feel their pain their joys and their fears about their children and whats going on in their lives right now with their children, they'll LISTEN and show then another view with out pushing it down their throats THEN let them make up their own minds and then not condom them for their own choices.
whether it be staying or leaving there men and lifestyle.
The fact is this is about these children not the marriage style nor your opinion on it.
If you have questions then ask them, if you come to learn but then come w/a closed mind to tell these women to give up their lifestyle as adults (Im not referancing the children here) then shut up and keep your opinions to yourself, and listn for a change.
I think its funny that even those not FLDS get jumped on when voicing an opinion that isnt feminist or an opinion that is not with someone else's
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Annie long winded responses often don't get read.5/12/2008 8:59 AM
- neither do short and stupid ones, or ones with biased attitudes. and im sick of people cutting on these women because they dont share there views.
a real pro-woman as some of you seem to think you are, will listen to these women, feel their pain their joys and their fears about their children and whats going on in their lives right now with their children, they'll LISTEN and show then another view with out pushing it down their throats THEN let them make up their own minds and then not condom them for their own choices.
whether it be staying or leaving there men and lifestyle.
The fact is this is about these children not the marriage style nor your opinion on it.
If you have questions then ask them, if you come to learn but then come w/a closed mind to tell these women to give up their lifestyle as adults (Im not referancing the children here) then shut up and keep your opinions to yourself, and listn for a change.
Smartest coment that ive read all day on here.
--> in a civilized, respectful manner, without all the name calling and prejudice. There is much misunderstanding on both sides of the fence.
5/12/2008 11:07 AM
5/12/2008 11:07 AM
The claim that these women must be brainwashed or if they had acces to the outside world they would not choose to stay in that lifestyle is wrong.
As I read about the women I find evidence that discredits the claim they are kept from having knowledge of or contact with the 'outside' world. To the contrary I noticed that they had cell phones and knew how to use them proficiently to take photos and video as well as make phone calls. If they had not had access to those phones before and the men had only given them the phones at the time of the raid so they could coach them what to say how would they be so proficient in their use so quickly?
They know how to use computers to access the internet and participate in blogs. They have put up a website of their own to tell their side of the story. How would they be able to do any of this if they'd never been allowed to have access to the internet before?
They know how to drive and get themselves around. What would be the point of teaching the women to drive if they weren't going to be allowed to drive anywhere?
Use your eyes and your brains to really look at all the information coming from this. Not just the intended message of the media but between the lines to the other information that is there if you just pay attention.
The evidence I see points to the women being intelligent and not only aware of but also having had access to the outside world.
People can't imagine choosing the FLDS livestyle over the one they live because the one they live is what is most comfortable to them. I think the same goes for the FLDS when they look across the fence. They know what's on the other side but they are content where they are and have no desire to be "rescued" and drug across the fence to our side of things.
Annie,
I really appreciate the fact that people will stand up for someone in their God-given and American rights. Thank you for putting out a voice for the FLDS. I claim them as my people although I do not agree with everything they have done. I really think it is awful that all the children were taken like they were. I know how I would feel if mine were taken from me. But, I do have to admit I am disgusted by the fact that these women would just leave their husband for another man. I know some of them, and on the news- yes, they seemed so sad, but how do you think their husband felt when he was kicked out and could not even say goodbye to his precious children? Where was these womens' sadness when their husband was kicked out? So in one sense I can sympathize with the mothers' being sad about their children being taken. In another, what goes around, comes around, as has already been stated on this blog several times.
What some of you aren't willing to acknowledge is that the child welfare situation and underage marriage problem is one in the same. In other words, your CHILDREN (14-16) are being placed in marriages.
It's really quite black and white. Your life choice to be a polygamist isn't the issue (even though ya'll know it's illegal). It's affecting the children because they aren't given any choice as to when or whom they will marry. According to the state of Texas, that is illegal.
To the FLDS women who post here, I have a question for you to answer in your own head and heart. When your children repeatedly disobey, do you ignore their behavior or do you put consequences in place?
I'm asking this because I feel some folks on here don't understand that even as adults, actions have consequences. Here you have a situation where the bad choices of the parents have affected the children. (By the way, Annie, I hadn't thought about how being here on the outside could really play out for the older children, but you're right.) To convince yourself that willfull disobedience (ie: not obeying the law) comes without consequences is not only nieve and childish, but irresponsible.
If you have a problem keeping the laws, go to Mexico. I think there is already an FLDS group there and they don't seem to be getting much push-back.
"in a civilized, respectful manner, without all the name calling and prejudice. There is much misunderstanding on both sides of the fence."
Well said.
I saw an online interview from the Today Show(NBC) this morning. Two FLDS couples were on the show along with Willie Jessop, and asked questions from viewers by e-mail.
Q: Every time someone from your community is questioned whether or not you feel it is abuse to have a teenage girl pregnant or married, you all dance around the question. If you all have nothing to hide, why not give a straight forward answer?
A: Rulon Keate "It does not apply to us. We have little boys."
A: Willie Jessop "Its a broad question"
WHAT?????
Mr. Keate and Mr. Jessop, you both danced around the question AGAIN. This is the same as saying you have something to hide.
Answers like these feed the prejudice fire.
Why not stand up for what you believe? We already know by the Bishops record you have 16 year olds marrying older men.
I dont think that straight answers are given for the exact reason of the responses that they get just on this board. People dont want to consider any other lifestyle other then their own. By that i dont mean the children or child marriages i mean the many wifes-one man.
Most people, FLDS or not will skirt around the bush if they feel cornered with questions, or if they feel that they are being attacked, i know i would, not because i wanted to lie but because i didnt want a confrontation or feel the need to get defensive.
Most of everyone not in FLDS are not talking about the children there focused on this type of marriage style and it shouldnt be about that, and not to be rude but if they choose to marry like this if their adults then its their business.
If they feel that they cant come out in the open (which im sure they cant because polygamy is illiegal, hence why they are not giving out their names they are probely afraid of getting in trouble) then maybe some changes need to be made to help us understand, and to allow them to be more open and legal about their marriages, which would also allow the govt to keep track of the marrages and the girls ages at time of marriage.
and i agree it would be nice to see a board on here for "tactful" questions - hint, hint.
Annie
The question quoted above IS about the children. In the state of Texas a 13-18 year old is a child. Why can't this question be answered directly? The question was not 'how many wives do you have?' or a personal attack on anyone. It would only be percieved as such if the answer incriminates them. That is why it looks suspicious.
I will put up a thread for questions for y'all. The problem I have seen over the years this blog has been up is that the FLDS that are willing to come here usually end up with the foul mouths and the bad names for those in disagreement with them. I have been ashamed more than once that I came from this group.
I respectfully withdraw my request for a new thread for questions. I have read enough on other boards to see that those that do respond are not of much of a helpful nature. The FLDS YFZ situation mess, starting with the first lies told to the community around the FLDS compound in Texas: 'we are only building a huntin lodge' I guess they forgot to print the last line....'so we can marry young fawns'
See there I go, it is hard to be nice with so much emotion surrounding the whole situation.
About eight years ago I bought a home in a covenant-controlled community. In doing this, I had to agree to abide by the written rules of the neighborhood. For example, I have to get approval before I paint the exterior of my home (just in case I was thinking pink might be a good), I am not allowed to park an RV in my driveway, I have to put my trash at the curb on Tues and Fri only, etc.
There is a whole book of rules and regulations. The consequences for not abiding by the rules is you get a written warning or a fine of $50. Last year our neighborhood hired what's called a "standard monitor". It is her job to look for infractions to our "code" and notify the homeowners. Since her arrival, I have gotten a few "notes". My first reaction was to get peeved because I thought she was nit-picking. The same stuff that was okay before didn't fly anymore. It wasn't that the rules had changed, it's just that they were being enforced.
All that to say that my covenant situation reminds me of what is happening to the FLDS. On some level I can relate to their frustration. They have become accustomed to the governments of UT and AZ giving them lots of wiggle room. They came to Texas and tried to get away with the same stuff and Texas enforced the laws in place.
The laws are there for a reason and would be pointless if they weren't enforced...much like my HOA covenant!
4:53
Why is it anybody's business what they were going to do with the PRIVATE PROPERTY they purchased? That's the first thing I think of when I hear the people down there all wizzing themselves over they lied about what they were going to do!!
Why does that make you so mad? Because if they'd said they were going to build up a community and build a temple you would have had a chance to stop them? Gee, Tex, maybe that's why they lied to you. Maybe they saw y'all coming from 10 miles away for the bigots you are.
While personally I would have told you it was none of your f-ing business. I guess this group is less confrontational and uptight about personal property rights than I am.
6:06,
Their misrepresentation of what they were doing with the property was only the first lie. They continued to be dishonest and uncooperative with local authorities about what they were doing with their land. Yes, they were required to be forthcoming about their large construction projects as is everyone else around here (permits etc. required by law for EVERYONE).
I disagree - It DOES matter when you are talking about a group of people larger than the town of Eldorado moving in and monopolizing the resources.
For an open-minded person, you sure are quick with the insults and vulgar language.
6:06
That is what they should have told them. Why lie about it? Perhaps it wasn't anyone's business but being uptight doesn't justify lying. Remember the story of the boy who cried wolf? That is the lesson the FLDS in Texas are learning.
It would only be percieved as such if the answer incriminates them. That is why it looks suspicious.
-Which is why i said what i did, and said exactly the same thing that you just said right there. If they know they are going to be critised they arent going to tell the truth, alot of people FLDS or not wouldnt just to avoid being further attacked.
Because I do not believe that we should be verbally attacking these women for their choices does not mean that i agree with their lifestyle nor suport it. I do NOT agree with it, nor with putting children at marriage to a man of any age when they are less then 18 yrs old. However, if you truely believe that these women are brain washed and that they dont no whats right from wrong i dont believe that we should be verbally attacking them. If you see a women beat up on the side walk you dont walk up to her, grab the nearest stick and continue to beat her while your asking her why she stays. you put your arm around her, ask questions, give suggestions then leave it up to her to make her choice.
Yes i do believe that the women should be able to atleast have some contact with their children but the men should be the ones made to leave and the govt should keep the kids on the compound but seperated and have supervised visitations w/the mothers so their watched so no influence can be made. Its a good 99% chance that these kids will evenutally be returned to their parents after 6 months or a yr of being away, my concern with them is that they will feel like cast outs and feel like they have no safe place to call home, and how this is going to affect them.
Now dont get me wrong here, because i jump down some of your backs does not mean that i am pro-FLDS, but i do believe that everyone should be able to make free choices for their own lives. Once a child thats 15-16-17 has a baby in any society shes no longer mentaly a child, its sad but theres nothing more that anyone can do about that.
Personaly I think that the compounds are nothing but pedophile camps, but thats just my opinion and my opinion isnt going to change these womens minds about their lifestyle or how they live it, so me saying that to them is pointless and would to me do them more harm.
6:06 anon,
If they saw us biggots coming from 10 miles away, why did they pursue the land deal?
This is the part that always confuses me. They seemed to know their presence would not be welcome, so they knew they had to lie. With all they were trying to get by with, why did they insist on doing it anyway? They knew there would be scrutiny and a watchful eye.
hubris (hyoo'bris) - excessive pride or self-confidence; arrogance
My religious beliefs involve murder - every now and then and only when my prophet sees fit. I'm glad to do it for my prophet who speaks for the Lord and besides, it's my American right to practice my religion. If the law comes after me, I'll scream "RELIGIOUS PERSECUTION!!!". Then I'll get some sympathizers who will take up my cause and guilt law enforcement into looking the other way every time there's a new victim.
Sure, I know it's against the law to murder, but it's more important to obey my prophet, the mouthpiece of the Lord, than to worry about trivial laws here on earth.
SEE HOW THAT SOUNDS? I just switched crimes (insert pedophelia in the place of murder).
If we aren't going to enforce child protection laws, where does it end?
Native Texan
They would puruse the land deal because they wanted the land. They are not there to make friends and party with the locals. Whether the locals like them or not is irrelevant to their purpose of making a home and building a temple there.
People ask why the need for the big fence and guard tower. You just answered it for them - nosey neighbors! LOL!
Those people have been "watched and scrutinized" for generations so I doubt that even phases them. Utah is run mainly by mainstream LDS members who are desperate to separate themselves from these people and their practice of plural wives. Personally I think the authorities in Utah have ulterior motives based in their religious beliefs for keeping a thumb on these people.
Maybe the FLDS thought Texas would have a "clearer mind" about the subject and look at it through the lense of constitutional rights rather than from desperation to deny common roots with these people.
I read somewhere that the UEP started that way in Canada, they told the Land owner that they wanted his land for a Hunting lodge. I think that was the biggest mistake the group up here made, joining the UEP.
Although it is physically easier to leave the group here, it is equally amotional. I know of some that left when they were teens, but the emotional scars are still there now that they are in their 50s.
Anon 8:07,
I keep trying to see the intellectual side of your point of view. I just can't - it's all emotion. You think the people of Texas got their feelings hurt because YFZ put a wall up and didn't invite us in for a BBQ. You think it's because the neighbors were nosy and FLDS was being private.
Laws were broken and that is what this is about - PERIOD. The FLDS is not a group that sprung up overnight. They've been around for awhile and people know about them. People also know that law enforcement in the Utah Arizona area where the YFZ gang were located was (and still is) very corrupt. The FLDS got away with more than they should because most of the people in law enforcement were members of the FLDS group or had family within. There was a lot of covering up and looking the other way when it came to underaged marriage and abuse. The law simply wasn't enforced. I think those in charge might have perceived the rest of the country to operate like that. It's either that or they were so arrogant they thought they could get away with it.
You have to admit, Texas waiting a long time before going in. If they were going on hunches and innuendo alone, they would have raided the place years ago. I believe people will be shocked at some of the things that are brought to light through all this.
Dear Annie,
I find myself agreeing with much of what you say, but there seems to be a piece of the puzzle missing in your point of view.
You are against the underaged marriage and abuse and you think that the women should be left to make their own life choices. Me too!
Here's the problem. Where are the parents of these young women who are being married off so young? They are either in approval or sitting by allowing it to happen. Part of their lifestyle at this point in time is accepting this illegal thing - statutory rape, basically.
I think this is where the attack point of view comes in. I'm a parent of girls. There's no way in hell I'm going to allow someone to marry either of them until they are old enough to accept the responsibility and blessing of marriage and family. It really isn't a matter of culture. The reason there is a law protecting girls from this is because it's developmentally inappropriate. I'm not saying that it's physically impossible, I'm saying it's emotionally imprudent. We aren't talking about women having their own choices. We're talking about girls. Many of these women are in their early twenties and have many children. How is this phycially possible unless they started in their teens?
If the parents won't stand up for these young girls, the state needs to. Even if it means taking them out of their natural surrounding, looking the other way because it's awkward and hard to deal with isn't acceptable. This cycle has to stop.
To FLDS polygamists:
Maybe Wilford Woodruff really was a prophet and polygamy should have been stopped! He prophesied.....continue to attempt to practice plural marriage.....at the cost of the confiscation and loss of all the Temples, and the stopping of all the ordinances therein,......and the imprisonment of the First Presidency.....and the confiscation of personal property ...
So, your temple has been desecrated, made unholy.
Your profit (spelling intended) is in jail.
Your property has not been confiscated.....yet. But, YFZ Ranch, by some accounts, looks more like a ghost town. Why do you still follow a false prophets?
Just wondering.
SL
native texan
o i agree that it does have to stop, and it would be nice if these kids could grow up in a normal home but unfornatly they dont and they will most likely be returned to their homes and origanal way of life. My worries are is that when they go back they wont feel or be accepted after an amount of time being gone, which will be disasterous for the children.
second, i feel that if they are going to keep them out then they need to do this to all of the communties not just this one to stop it all together or theres no point in this at all, and the damage done to these kids will be in vain.
I have a 16 year old girl, i would NEVER allow her to date anyone like that let alone even an 18 year old. Trust, its drilled into her brain to avoid serious relationships and to go to college.
so she has the finanical freedome to marry whom she chooses and when shes ready not because she needs someone to take care of her.
I do feel for these women, and i do understand that they were also once 16 year olds forced into marriages possibly, and are hurting for their children but i also believe that they arent as neive as people think they are, nor brainwashed. But brain washed or not they wouldnt know it if it sat on their faces and wee'd. Which is why i argue that if they feel strong enough that they are right, let them have the freedom to make their choices as we all should be able to do as long as they realize the consequences of what they are deciding (which i think they do know)
they know the laws and know that we dont accept this, otherwise their would be records of their births, ages, names of which child belongs to whom.
with paperwork and records not being done, how could we tell a 14yr old, from a 16 yr old, to an 17 yr old.
There are alot of lonely people in the world that could benefit from this and our socity could learn alot from this. i just think this over all is a sad situation, and its really a shame that something like this which could be a good thing for these women, children and anyone needing something liek this but it has to be abused and ruined by perverts.
"An AP analysis shows that by the time a girl reached 16, she was more likely to be married than to live as a child in her father's household."
from http://www.newswest9.com/Global/story.asp?S=8293737&nav=menu505_2
And they all had shier choice, no one was 'forced'.
It will be interesting to see what the Attorney General is going to say about this.
Annie,
Agreed, but this was handled by the state government of Texas, not the federal government. Don't ask me why Arizona and Utah haven't addressed it on the state level. I think it's shameful.
It isn't like the FBI (a federal agency) went in and raided the place without any reason. If that were the case, then I would suspect YFZ was targeted in some way. As far as I know, this is the only group like this in the state of Texas from which the state received a call (phony or not) with charges of underage marriage and abuse. They had ample reason to do what they did. I'm sure if they got another call about another group tomorrow, there would be a thorough investigation on them too.
You and I are on the same page. My opinion is that if a few girls are given an opportunity to "ripen" it was worth it. Perhaps if nothing else it will be a wake-up call for the FLDS to respect the laws of the land or own up to the consequences like the rest of us.
Native Texan
i hate to say this because i would never want my children taken away, but i would really wish that if these kids could lead normal lives that they would be kept away. but again it would be in vain in any hurt being caused to them if they only did it to this compound.
However, men are men in our out of the compound. Granted not all are like this but alot are which is probely why you dont see many men fighting to stop this on here.
Annie,
Some being helped are better than none. Every group that systematically takes advantage of young girls in this way should absolutely be targeted, no matter what beliefs they hold. The states in which they find such abuses going on are responsible for investigating. Texas stepped up to the plate. It's not Texas' fault these children are unable or unwilling to identify biological parents. Talk about a huge red flag.
Over the years, Warren has turned this quiet group into a virtual sex ring, with him being the ring master. People within can say it's not about sex, but is sex being had and are wives being swapped around (even as young as 14)? It used to be that the men had multiple partners within the polygamist lifestyle, but now it's the women too.
FLDS can say what they want about divorce statistics here in the outside world, but what Warren has done (and what his members have allowed) with all the family "reassigning" is no different. In fact it's worse.
How are these children supposed to feel about their father just disappearing one day? No visitation or contact. One day, he's just gone and *poof* their mother has a new husband! It's hard for me to believe that the "new father" treats these children (whose biological father has been shamefully kicked out as an apostate) the same as his biological children. It goes against human nature.
Okay, time to step off the soapbox and grab a cup of coffee.
Annie,
You said "i would really wish that if these kids could lead normal lives".
What standard are you using for 'normal'?
By all accounts from observers of the situation, they feel this children are well behaved and courteous. That is one normal I wish I saw in any public school system today.
Dear Native Texan and Annie,
Get a room!
Normal as in not having to marry men 20 plus years older then them (not the 20 women to 1 man) but children marring 50 yr olds.
Normal as in not being forced from a prophet to move from one husband to the next.
and yes as i have said before there are alot of benefits from this lifestyle that are better then ours, but the parts that are bad way over shadow the good.
As far as these women having a choice, i do not call it choice when a child or young woman whom is not educated past the what 7th-8th grade? put in front of their prophet to ask if the will accept a marriage with so n so. THAT IS NOT FREE CHOICE, THAT IS ABUSE OF POWER.
If they agree it does not mean it was willing it was most likely intimadation, and knowing that if the prophet asked its what he wanted so they agree'd.
and leave it to a man (which im assuming that you are) to argue about two women having a conversation that doenst involve "being sweet". For the anonymous that said get a room. if you dont like us talking dont read it, im sure that your capable of moving the tab down so you can skip over our talks.
Annie,
Thanks for your definition of 'normal'.
I agree.
Why can't the women have more than one husband? Thats not fair. i never found a man yet that could handle my needs. Maybe I should start a religion and stock pile a bunch of husbands. They can cook for me, clean up for me, give me some good sex, go to work and I will make them wear leather g-strings. Yeh, the possibilities......
man did you guys watch oprah? The one woman that showed her house must have had a man there w/her because she kept looking at someone to see if she could give answer's and why couldnt she even tell us how many sister wives she had or the number of children in the house, by that and how she acted tells you right their that those women have NO freedom to do as they please! they have NO say in anything unless its something that they are allowed to say.
Thats really f***** up.
oo and what else, G maybe that they admited that yes the girls were married at 14-15 and it was ok because their taken care of? What the hell kinda crap is that!
and what kind of mother allowed an adult man to rape and molest her 14year old child because thats what it is!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Denkel, The new prophet has spoken! Lemme know when you have your temple built and staffed! I'm coming to live there too! But I hope you're providing the men b/c I can't seem to find a decent one around here...
BTW- people keep asking 'where are the men? the fathers of these children?' I saw 2 on the Today show the other day... I think that's all of 'em! Or at least those were the only ones that could still get around w/o a tank of oxygen and a pretty young nurse!
Oprah was an eye opener. The people they had on there didn't seem vindictive, jealous or bitter. Actually quite the opposite really. Elissa was just sweet and showed real concern for her family and even though she recognized all the women from the Lisa Lang video she respected their privacy and did not identify them. Not the actions of a jealous embittered 'enemy'.
As far as the woman who showed her house I think they said there were two lawyers there with them. Are the lawyers FLDS members too I wonder? Maybe that's who she was looking at to see if she should answer questions.
They didn't try to deny that 14 year olds are married to older men. Just that they're "taken care of". What does that even mean? Taken care of?
That other lady with the 7 kids had only been out four months. I found it interesting that even though they had been raised with that culture and not exposed to 'secular' ideas both the mother and the 14 year old daughter knew it was wrong and felt deeply compeled to get the heck out of there. If you're a mom your gut tells you what's bad for your kid even if everyone around you is saying it's right.
I also noticed they'd all hit the beauty parlor! LOL! Good for them because every one of them were beautiful women.
Oh, one other thing that I noticed is that Elissa said it was not her biological father but a step-father (new assigned father) that had announced in a family meeting that three of his daughters were to be married and then told her and her mother later she was one of them. I wondered if some of the exiled fathers were taken out of the picture because they would be more inclined to protect their own children and resist having their 13-17 year old daughters taken as lambs to the slaughter to be raped. I wish I knew how many bio fathers handed their daughters over and how many were "reassigned fathers".
The mothers that sit idly by and just let it happen I think must have some form of post traumatic stress or something. They've given up feeling anything probably a looooong time ago when they were being raped as little girls and then shuffled from man to man to be raped again.
Hah Denkel!
Let me know when you start your cult up, get the old Yearning for Whatever
ranch going!! Listen though, make sure you have an onsite gym, with massage by Sven! and Juan! That sounds great, hey now there is a great story to write Oprah about, get Lisa wing? to report on that.!
I feel sorry for these children do any of you think about how foster care is and how hard it is on them? Who are we to play God and destroy peoples lives just because we dont believe in what they are doing. How many young girls get pregnant in society today just because they want to? Who are we to judge someones religion? I dont believe in multiple wifes or young marriage but people in the world do it , our greatgrandparents married young. I believe the children do belong with there mother and have CPS check in on them weekly and make sure they are safe and being feed, clothed, schooled, etc. People have a right to live how they want that is what America is about, who are we to judge these people? The bible evens says thee who have not sinned cast the first stone, well everyone has sinned it is human but for Mrs. Jessop to get on TV just to get fame it is sad , yes she had something horrible happen to her but she left. Some of these woman dont want to leave. This is there choice as is every American's choice to live in the USA. Give those kids back to there mothers before they are so messed up and become a satistic of society and end up like alot of foster kids in jail, on drugs, or just plain unproductive. There are some who do make it but alot dont. I will pray for you women at the ranch I do not condone or believe in what you do but I do agree you deserve your children.
5:27,
You're trying to apply your advantages to their situation.
And how could foster care be worse than what's happening to them in the compound? If you're like me, it's hard to understand how any parent could allow their children to be hurt, yet these parents are allowing their children (daughters) to be married and have children at 14!
I think many of these women don't try to leave because they've been intimidated into staying. They've been taught that everyone on the outside is going to hell - for not being inside. They've been taught the only way to the celestial kingdom is to be pure on earth. The definition of pure is doing WHATEVER the prophet says (This explains a lot since their prophet is in prison).
Taking themselves and their children out would damn them. Not to mention the fact that they have no living skills - no education - no way to earn a decent living to support all their children. Their way of life is so foreign to the rest of us. It's probably easier to just lump it and stick with what (and who) they know. Yes, I believe they are doing what they think is best for the kids - but the definition of "best" has been manipulated by those in power. That is the trajedy.
do any of you think about how foster care is and how hard it is on them? Who are we to play God and destroy peoples lives just because we dont believe in what they are doing.5/15/2008 5:27 AM
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so your going to sit there and say that men in their 30-s 40s n so forth have a right to have their way with your daughter? and that foster care is worse then that?
First off lets just understand this correctly. This is NOT a religious thing this is a compound where (some) of these men use religion to rape young girls, and to fullfill their morbid fantasy of having more then one women.
They use religion to control and abuse these women from birth.
For those that say they are free to choose, your wrong. When you 12-13 years old and you know that your going to be married off and you dont like it, what do you do?
you are told no you have to the idiot (excuse me i mean prophet) said you had to. You know nothing of the outside world, you think that were all devils, were going to hell, you no nothing of child services, nor the police dept to ask for help. You do as your told and get married. By the time your a woman its to late because your children are spread out across the camp or in other compound in another state.
Do you go to church? The last time that i went to church my priest, minister which ever one you might go to did not say the 10 commandments then add an 11th one in their saying go and rape all the 13 year olds you want.
There is no excuse for this!! This community could be something that could be a great thing, however, when you have young children being married off, have arranged marriages, have women being traided from husband to husband like a trading card theres a problem.
Now that must have come from a man that doesn’t like women not being sweet - g so sorry.
If you don't like my opinion then shove it. No I'm not un-educated I have an associates, and working on a BA in the medical field.
What did I say that was not true?
Do you not marry children (13-17 year olds)?
Do you not have arranged marriages?
Did your women themselves on TV admit that you marry young girls that are 13-16 and made the statement that they are treated better then the older ones?
Do your compounds not have secret passages (which we all seen on Oprah)?
Are you not teaching your children that we are evil?
Are you not letting your children being educated to at least the 12th grade so they at least have the survival skills if they choose to leave (since you say they actually do have a choice)?
Do you not have 50-60-70 year old men marrying 13-16 year old children?
Did the police not pull out 31 young girls that were between 13 and 17 that have babies and/or have given birth already?
Do you suppress what your women are allowed to say? From the interviews that were done and seen on TV this week, that would be YES.
Do you not have secret birthing centers in your compounds for your women to give birth so we wont no what's really going on, or the ages of the children that are giving birth?
If you were so godly and rightous you would not have to hide everything that you do nor your livestyle.
Since you’re not legally nor technically married, because each man has so many children do not some of your wives get on welfare and gov't assistance, which WE PAY FOR btw.
OR, maybe it was the comment about your leaders. Your leaders are no different then any other man or women living in this world. We all wake up in the morning, brush our teeth, and sit on the toilet the same way.
You are no more special then any tom, dick, harry or sally walking down the street, and because you choose to populate the earth with 10,000 children doesn’t mean your going to walk the path to god any quicker.
God put us here to live our lives, to be happy, be thoughtful to others, to care and love EVERYONE.
He judges us by how we treat people, and how much we help and love one another.
And for the ones that were talking about race. Since when does a mans/woman’s skin color have anything to do with the person that they are? There are evil people everywhere with every skin color!
It sounds pretty hi-Hitler and ignorant.
Would you like me to continue?
=]
There is a review of Elissa Wall's new book on this site:
http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/
Just from the review there are glaring inconsistencies that need to be studied and questioned. First, Elissa says she was shocked when she was told she was to be married at 14 because she'd never known of anybody getting married that young. She knew of ONE girl who got married at seventeen but the rest were 18. On oprah she said girls getting married at 14 was common. So which is it ... shocking or common?
The other issue is the claim that these girls have no choice because of no knowledge of the outside world, mistrust of those outside the sect, etc. According to Elissa she snuck out and went to town where she saw movies, shopped for CD's and hung out with friends. She and her friends even got alcohol and went out to party in the "sticks". That doesn't sound like someone who has no concept of the outside world, is afraid of outsiders or has no contact with the outside.
The man she's married to now impregnated her when she was 16 years old and he was 23 years old. They were not married when she conceived. Ohhh, how sweet! Look at the cute couple! Nobody on the Oprah show pointed out that HE is by law a rapist as well. Oh and by the way he's got a meth problem too. A 23 year old meth addict impregnates a 16 year old girl and they're sitting on Oprah selling books without anybody asking any questions. Why?
When I saw the interview with Elissa on Oprah I was impressed. After reading what's in her book my opinion of her has changed dramatically. She is dishonest ... the things she told Oprah and Lisa Ling conflict with what she wrote in her book.
Also on this site:
http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/
Two of the pregnant "girls" taken into custody during the raid have now been proven to be adults. One is 18 and the other 22. Both of these women had given their true names and ages and provided identification that was ignored from the very first day.
Funny that the 18 year old was listed along with her birthday on one of the charts CPS submitted to the judge to prove she had given birth as a minor so they were aware (or should have been aware) that she was over eighteen years old. They held her for weeks anyway. Why?
Also on this site:
http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/
Two of the pregnant "girls" taken into custody during the raid have now been proven to be adults. One is 18 and the other 22. Both of these women had given their true names and ages and provided identification that was ignored from the very first day.
Funny that the 18 year old was listed along with her birthday on one of the charts CPS submitted to the judge to prove she had given birth as a minor so they were aware (or should have been aware) that she was over eighteen years old. They held her for weeks anyway. Why?
Elissa was on20/20 last night and I found some inconcistencies in her story too. But the fact remains that she did not want to marry at 14 and did not give her concent to having sex. She miscarried at least twice before she was 16. (A midwife tesified in court.)
I don't think Alan Steed should do any time for rape as he was as much a victum as Elissa.
She was 17 when she left to be with her now husband.
Between the ages of 14 to 17 she had 4 miscarriages from her FLDS husband.
This child was raped from the time she turned 14 until she turned 17 and your going to sit there and go over her book with a fine toothed comb to find any excuse you can to go after her, your sad and pathetic.
There is no excuse for this happening. Elissa stopped being a little girl and became a women the first time that jerk climbed on top of her and raped her.
It was proven on video tape on the Oprah show from the FLDS women talking that is IS COMMON for girls 13-16 to be married, which proves that it is common practice.
Annie do yourself a favor and print out your posts then take them to the nearest junior high school english teacher. S/he'll be able to help you. If you do, in fact, have an AA or AS from an accredited university that's a sad testament to the level of mediocrity in our schools.
Your post above illustrates the point I was trying to make. Your posts are filled with inflamitory rhetoric with no basis in fact. You make assumptions without facts to back them up and then have a knee-jerk emotional response. Diarrhea of the keyboard. For instance you assumed I was an FLDS man who addressed your posts because you were a woman who was not "being sweet". You went off on an emotionally driven post based on that assumption. Would you be surprised to know that I am a 36 y/o college educated woman who works in the legal field? Would you be shocked to know my friends and colleagues consider me a feminist? I hope it goes without saying but I am not FLDS either.
I don't have to be a member of a church, agree with or even like their beliefs to speak up against religious bigotry and hate speech. That's what the majority of your post above is. Why they choose to have children, if they believe in a prophet, if they are private and keep to themselves, have arranged marriages ... if you don't agree with any of it then don't join the religion. Other than that it's none of your business and certainly not a basis to spew hate speech towards them.
Some of the "facts" you list above are actually opinions germinated from religious intolerance. Like the "secret passages" seen on Oprah. I've seen similar construction in other buildings and it's called storage. The women on Oprah looking off to the side before answering questions does not mean there was an FLDS man there dictating if they could speak. They had their attorney's there and that's likely who they were looking at. I've seen celebrities and politicians do the same thing during interviews where their lawyers are present. There is no evidence that the birthing center was "secret" let alone that its purpose was to hide births from authorities. Yes, I know Lemont said that on Oprah. I heard him say it and he said "probably" for that reason. It was his opinion not a fact.
As to the pregnant girls I suggest you go to this blog one reporter has and read how CPS came up with that number. I think you'll find it enlightening. It's the thread called "disputed minors".
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=plural+life+blog+brooke&btnG=Search
Would you be surprised to learn that two of those pregnant teenagers were 18 and 22 years old and CPS knew it but kept them in custody anyway? The evidence of a pregnancy of a 13 year old girl CPS referred to did not apply to any girl in custody but to a woman whose pregnancy at that age was in 1990? That their number included one girl who was counted twice? That one girl refused to submit to a pregnancy test so they counted her as pregnant anyway to err on the side of caution.
So in answer to your question did the police pull out 31 15-16 and 17 year old girls who were either pregnant or had given birth already I'll have to answer No, they did not. There may be some but then there may not be any. It has yet to be determined but there were definately NOT 31.
Do they have 50-60-70 year old men marrying 13 year old children? The bishops record does not reflect this. The husbands are in their 20's or maybe 30's. I think there was one who was older. The state has not shown evidence of a marriage or sexual relationship between any 50, 60 or 70 year old man and a girl under 16. Since in America people are innocent until proven guilty I'll have to answer no, they are not marrying 13 year old girls until the State proves beyond a reasonable doubt that they are.
I'm not saying Elissa wasn't married at 14. I'm saying there are inconsistencies in her story. There are things that she did that don't match up with what she claimed the situation was and what her state of mind was at the time. Some of the claims she makes about the FLDS lifestyle don't jive with her story.
Excuse the hell out of me for pointing out that she claimed to be under the thumb of the FLDS all the time and there was nobody to ask for help but at the same time trapsed all over the country side to other cities and states. While she was supposedly powerless to ask anyone for help she had meetings with ex-FLDS family members who wanted to get her out but she didn't leave. I guess I should just sit down and drink the grape kool-aid or I'm sick and pathetic.
Who is it that's brainwashed? Isn't brainwashed about blind belief without scrutinizing or questioning what you're being told?
I'm not saying Elissa wasn't married at 14. I'm saying there are inconsistencies in her story. There are things that she did that don't match up with what she claimed the situation was and what her state of mind was at the time. Some of the claims she makes about the FLDS lifestyle don't jive with her story.
Excuse the hell out of me for pointing out that she claimed to be under the thumb of the FLDS all the time and there was nobody to ask for help but at the same time trapsed all over the country side to other cities and states. While she was supposedly powerless to ask anyone for help she had meetings with ex-FLDS family members who wanted to get her out but she didn't leave. I guess I should just sit down and drink the grape kool-aid or I'm sick and pathetic.
Who is it that's brainwashed? Isn't brainwashed about blind belief without scrutinizing or questioning what you're being told?
10:37 feminist anon:
You can say you're a 36 year old woman in the legal profession and I can say I'm a 5 year old water buffalo in Africa. That's the beauty of this blog. Annie also might be a 12 year old boy - we just don't know, so call off the attack dogs.
Your saying that "if you don't agree with any of it then don't join the religion" reveals your ignorance on this topic. If you're in the legal profession as you claim to be, then you should be no stranger to research. Do some on this group.
And I'm going to have to go ahead and call your bluff on being a feminist. A true feminist would be outraged at the things these women are forced to do.
The name-calling doesn't make you look educated, it makes you look emotional by the way.
Ahh another feminist, how shocking. Which I highly doupt you are (a woman that is)
Do we really care if you’re a feminist? Do we care about how educated and smart you seem to think you are? No we don’t.
I think that the news media has proven enough that what she says is correct. Granted this is still under investigation and the numbers maybe off however, it is indeed a fact that minor children are married off to adult men, no matter their age be it 18 or 50 it is wrong.
If you are indeed a woman you should be ashamed of yourself for not standing up for these children.
These women have a choice when their adults to live how they choose, but there children do not.
For accusing her of making statements that are false or having an opinion based on evidence that isn’t proven yet, you are doing that also. I think that you need to address your own issues and word vomit before you comment on others.
As far as trying to put yourself above her in your "education" you sound ridicules, and you need to take your own advice. I think that indeed she has made emotional responses being a woman myself I have done the same, does that mean that I am not educated? I have also made typing errors on here does that mean that I am stupid and ignorant? NO it does not. This is a journal, blog it is not work, nor anything professional that should warrent a more formal style of anything. So keep yapping your professional big words so I have something to amuse myself with later.
If you don't like what she says skip over her comments and simply don’t read them for infact the majority of us agree with what she has had to say.
o but wait, your right while most of everyone else in the world with an opinion about these marriages is wrong -laughs.
blah blah blah blah. Talk about a knee-jerk emotional response.
For her writing so illiterate you sure did take the time to read it, and post long enough of a response.
The only thing that I read out of everything that you have said is excuses for everything that has been said on CNN, Oprah and 20/20 about what is going on there.
The fact is the state of Texas had every right to go in there and protect these children if abuse is suspected.
And did I read this right, not a few weeks ago that a girl gave birth to a baby in state custody? and she also has a 16 month old baby? If in fact she is 18 right now as you seem to these all of these young girls really are then she was still 16 when she had her oldest.
You are doing the same thing that you accuse Annie of doing. Your basing your opinions of innocence on these people because the word guilty hasn’t been pounded in sand yet.
So Mrs. Legal I know everything. If you want to talk about our legal system explain why convicted pedophiles are let out of jail to re-rape and murder children? Why are pedophiles let out on simply probation? Talk about why are legal systems are screwed up, I'm talking to the reason right now. Liberal ass's that think they know everything.
Which btw you must not have seen last night. It was interesting watching the video tape of these illegal weddings taking place at that FLDS owned hotel, by an investigator, how romantic, can I have my wedding like that to?
If your a feminist woman not a man good for you, I could care less either or. An asshole is an asshole for either gender.
So basically your saying that anyone that isn't college educated on this board (which yes I happen to be) are idiots and should have no personal opinion?
I graduated from High School when i was 17. Got an associates degree in Web Design, and Business by the time I was 21 and a degree of associates in Nursing in my early 30's and as of this past year I'm working on my RN to BSN.
You are also guilty as is everyone here that has stated there personal opinions on something that has yet to be proven total fact on in all stand points.
You nor your opinions are no better then anyone else on here posting, so get off your high horse. Which btw the last time that I checked this is America, its called freedom of speach. Not freedom so long as you agree with my (your)opinion.
BTW since we are going over everyone’s opinions with a fine tooth comb, I went over yours.
-------------------------
English is not english
inflammatory is not inflamitory
Diarrhea of the keyboard is a fragmented sentence.
women on Oprah looking off to the side before answering questions does = does should be "do"
definately should be definitely
bishops should be bishop's
---------------
If your going to try to put me in my place do it with something better then grammer. If you show me your other post I would gladly read them for you for correction.
have a nice night
:)
Good post Anon 10:37 ...
However, you might want to check your spelling of inflamitory, definately and I daresay your english should have been capitalized. LOL
:-D
Sorry, the proofreader in me just couldn't resist. Really, your post was delightful and reasonable unlike the irrational diatribe that so often appears here.
Annie, you really ought to use a spell-checker before you post. It might elevate your credibility just a tad; although I do agree with Anon 10:37 regarding the poor grammar you use to discharge such blinding intolerance and misinformation.
How can the children be rightfully returned to their parents when even the parents don't know who belongs to who.
"It was proven on video tape on the Oprah show from the FLDS women talking that is IS COMMON for girls 13-16 to be married, which proves that it is common practice."
I just went back and here's what they are quoted as saying on Oprah's website:
When asked about teenage girls being forced to marry older men, the women say there's no reason for concern and that the girl could refuse if she didn't want to marry. "They are actually well taken care of. They're not abused, especially the young ones," one of the women says.
The women answered a question about 'teenaged girls'. That could mean anything from 13 to 19. Lisa did not specify under 16 and did not do any follow up questioning to narrow it down. I understand she was there under tense conditions but I wish she would have pursued that issue a little more.
My question is if the women were referring to girls below the legal age of consent why the attorney would have allowed the question in the first place and allowed the women to answer? Did they assume they were talking about girls above the legal age of consent? Was there a pre-agreement that references to teenaged girls meant girls above the legal age? There's something going on there with the lawyer we're not getting to know.
There's simply not enough information about the ages to prove the woman was talking about 13-16 year olds or that it is common. There are teenaged 'marriages' but are they with 13-16 year olds or 16-18 year olds? It happens but how common is it? To the woman who said "especially the young ones" - what do you consider to be a young bride?
These are questions Lisa Ling should have asked because without the answers any conclusions drawn can only be assumptions.
I have followed this story over the past several weeks and I used to feel that CPS really was overstepping their bounds when they took the infant and small children from the YFZ ranch. I also felt that something had to be done to protect young girls from being married off at such a young age. I heard the FLDS women on TV say over and over, “no one is forced.” The FLDS would never answer questions about the age girls were married, and still are not doing so. This weekend, I heard second hand, that some FLDS men use drugs to control some of the women and children. I feel so sorry for the victims, both women and children. I assume that we are not getting the full story from CPS as criminal charges have not been filed yet, but, I am certain we are not getting the full story from the FLDS either. There is so much condemning evidence against them. CPS cannot even find all the parents. Where are they? Why are they not in court trying to get their children back? Why are they abusing the 'lost boys'? It is obvious that the FLDS consider themselves above the law. We now hear that the FLDS are spreading to other states. The abuse will continue to spread until the FLDS know that the government and the people will not accept this kind of behavior, especially in the name of religion. The FLDS abusers must be stopped. The FLDS have brought this mess upon themselves, and now they will have to get out of it. It is sad that the children have to suffer because of it.
This news segment sure is an eye opener!!
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/media/bountiful.wvx
Some of the 100 children they havent matched to Mothers will be the young woman who are 'married', and there would have been a few young men that were at the YFZ working.
The one young Mom that just gave birth is 22, apparently she looks much younger and the CPS guessed that she was under 14 when conceived her first child.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24695122
According to this story up to two dozen of the "girls" in custody may be adults but CPS is still in the process of proving their ages. The 18 year old and 22 year olds who recently gave birth were already released. That means that CPS's 31 teenaged mothers may actually be as few as five.
I'd like to know of those five who are apparently undisputed how old they are? How old were they when they had their first child? Has anybody seen anything on this you could link to?
Marrying girls as soon as they are pubescent has been reported to be a pervasive religious tenant strictly adhered to by the FLDS. For a group who blindly obeys the teachings of their prophet they sure aren't very obedient to this suposed law or there would have been nearly every one of the teenaged girls married with babies intead of just a hand full.
They are a ocult not a relegion,and the men started it to to have sex under false pretense,they release the boys to the world but keep the girls,only a blind person could not see this very wrong way to use relegion[Jim Jones all over again].Why didn't they stop those trucks that where removing stuff from the compound the other week .They removed a lot of incriminating evidence ,yet they where able to remove what they wanted from a crimenal investigating place,wow.
occult = of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies
cult = a group or sect bound together by veneration of the same thing, person, ideal, etc.
Actually they are a state recognized religion. An offshoot of Mormons.
Funny, I could have sworn there were boys taken in the raid of the compound along with the girls.
Also, Elissa (the girl who testified against Warren Jeffs) was married off to a 19 year old boy. How in the heck did a 19 year old boy manage to a) not get dropped at the end of he road before reaching that age and b) get his hands on a 'wife' when those are supposed to be reserved for old men?
Since the police were in there like ants on an anthill going through everything with a fine tooth comb I doubt there was "truckloads" of incriminating evidence to be removed.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700227301,00.html
"Judge Barbara Walther approved a family service plan for reuniting 6-year-old Samuel with his mother Sharon Barlow, 35, who appeared in the courtroom. The boy is in state custody in Amarillo. The goal is reunification by April 13, 2009"
So this woman has to jump through CPS hoops for a YEAR to get her child back when there has been no evidence that this child (or any of her other children) has been neglected or abused in the first place????
"Texas Department of Family and Protective Services want to assess not only the educational ability of the boy but that of his mother as well. It wants Barlow to submit to a variety of tests to determine her vocational interests"
What the hell does her "vocational interests" have to do with proving if she's a good mother or not? How is that germaine to whether she is likely to neglect or abuse her children?
This woman has been charged with nothing, has not had the benefit of due proess but has essentially been sentenced to a year of probation and had her child taken away.
It just can't be right that this is happening in America.
"Lawyers for one mother said in court that copies of the Book of Mormon have been taken from the boys being housed at the Cal Farley's Boys Ranch in Amarillo. That irritated the judge.
"I'd like to know why that was removed," said Judge Marilyn Aboussie. "I'd like to hear if there's a good reason. I can't think of one myself. There needs to be an excellent reason."
Gee, kind of makes you think CPS workers might have a predisposed prejudice against these people religion doesn't it? The article didn't mention what reason CPS gave for removing the Book of Mormon from the children so I'm not sure if it was 'excellent' or not.
Why does everyone keep making excuses for these people? Occult, cult what the hell makes a difference? These are men that are abusing their religion for sexual gain.
Granted not all men are like this however most of them probably are.
And what does it make a difference if there were a small or a large percentage of these boys being cast out, 1 cast out is 1 to many!
If you’re going to force your children to live this lifestyle then they should not be thrown out because they don’t have the education to survive in our world!
These men are throwing out the rebellion boys that they think might cause trouble so they give them the boot. God forbid if anyone should demand answers to the question, why.
God forbid these boys and girls develop a mind of their own and learn to think for themselves.
Interesting article-http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/world/mexico/stories/050808dnmexicomormons.dc0e95bf.html
I wonder what will happen to the ranch with no one [women and children] to tend the gardens, chicken coops and dairy cows. The last pictures of Pilot's, seems to the show the place getting brown and dusty. Does work still continue there?
Some interesting reading.
Texas should be hoping someone will rewrite the constitution before this all gets finished in the courts.
http://deseretnews.com/article/1,5143,700225591,00.html?pg=1
"why are there still 100 children with no parents claiming them? "
CPS first said there were 31 teenaged girls who had either given birth or were pregnant. That number has been exposed to be exaggerated both intentionally and through incompetence. One girl was counted twice, two CPS actually knew to be adult women, one neither pregnant nor with any children who just refused the pregnancy test so got counted anyway, etc. One of the last articles I read said 2 dozen of these "girls" may be adults but CPS is still determining that. Given what we've learned about CPS's methods for getting their number of 31 and seeing that number dwindling by the day I'm not sold on there actually being 100 unclaimed children.
How many have been claimed only to have CPS decide they're not going to accept the mother claiming them as their real mother? How many were counted twice? Are the 31 supposed teenagers who might be adults counted in that 100? I just have a hard time trusting anything coming from CPS as the truth after seeing what happened with the "magic 31".
"Texas should be hoping someone will rewrite the constitution before this all gets finished in the courts."
Thank you for posting this link. This had me in tears. The abuse and neglect of these children is just unacceptable. The baby left in the stroller without food or drink for 24 hours and the little boy found in the empty colluseum. Who is going to go and take custody of these children away from CPS? So far I've seen more substantiated evidence of abuse from CPS than agains the FLDS.
What can we do? What can Americans across the country DO?? Demand via our own state representatives there be a federal investigation of these allegations? Contact George Bush and demand some immediate oversight?
Okay all you smart people - tell us what to do to stop this!!!
I am niether FLDS nor American, but after seeing the disregard for first amendment rights, I would thank god you Americans have the second.
I wonder what Texans would think of thousands of men and women showing up at the court house dressed in prairie dresses (men too) to protest the violation of these peoples rights?
I'll bet that would hit the national news! LOL!
Monty Pythons witch episode comes to mind.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I8ZWgrf6Qds
From the Bishops Record, on average how many men to every woman, and how many children to each woman?
Is this the same as the average flds?
"2 men excommunicated from FLDS offer to be guardians for their children"
Associated Press - May 20, 2008 5:55 PM ET
It is about time some FLDS MEN stand up for their kids! Oh, yeah, they used to be FLDS men.
Look at the photos Pilot has posted. You can see separate and distinct residential buildings. It's kind of hard to tell but using the temple as a landmark there are at least 12 large buildings. There may be more that aren't in camera range because the photos were wide angle of the temple.
How can anybody see that and just declare this is one household? Based on what definition of household? I see multiple residences!
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_9330822
"An underpinning of the state's case for taking hundreds of FLDS children into custody continued to weaken Tuesday as officials acknowledged four more women whose ages were disputed are adults - including one who is 27"
How many is that now that told CPS their true ages and gave them valid state issued ID on the day of the raid? Nine?
The 27 year old was estimated by CPS to be 14! Oops!
CPS claimed the 'girls' and their families were all lying about their ages. Oops!
Republican Sen. Bob Deuell of Greenville wants to make the FLDS pay for this giant fiascal? I've got news for Sen Deuell ... Texas is going to foot its own bill for this and then make the FLDS families millionaires too.
Just for fun lets review what we have so far.
Allegation: Common household.
Truth: Many separate and distinct residences.
Allegation: 31 teenaged girls 14-17 either pregnant or with children already.
Truth: There are no 14 year olds pregnant or with babies. 17 of the 'girls' are actually adults.
Allegation: The FLDS gave forged documents and lied to CPS about the ages of the 'girls'
Truth: The documents given to CPS have been proven legitimate state issued ID. The girls were telling the truth.
Allegation: The FLDS fathers have run off and abandoned their families.
Truth: There are numerous photos of FLDS fathers at the courthouse so they are there for their families.
Truth: The Bishops record clearly shows adult males "married" to minor females.
Truth: FLDS consider themselves above the law.
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