Tuesday, April 29, 2008

YFZ is a Ghost Town ( of sorts )

YFZ looked like a story out of a Steven King book. A death ship that calls for the souls of its sailors to come home. No one is moving. There are trucks around but no one working anywhere except the ever present lookout on top of the mountain. Nothing new since photos taken in February other than the skeleton like walls of their workshop. It does make one wonder what is going to happen to the people and their new Zion. It is an inevitable struggle when the law of the land runs afoul of someone's god or someone who made themselves god. I have taken photos from far above this time. Large shots showing how wonderful Zion could have been...

Enjoy...

83 comments:

Anonymous said...

its sailors

its=possessive

it's=it is


basic grammar

Anonymous said...

My bad -- spell check changed it. Thanks... happy now??
Pilot

Anonymous said...

Pilot,
A picture is worth a thousand words. IT'S beautiful. Thanks for the words and photos.

Anonymous said...

Pilot,

Are you the man that flew Dr. Phil over YFZ Ranch?

If so, how did he react about the whole situation? I saw the two shows he did last week but you never get a behind the scenes information.

Thanks.

pilot-27r said...

Yes, I was with him over the YFZ. I told him that pictures do not do this place justice. He had to see it for himself. He did. He is a pilot with over 5000 hours and we talked about airplanes and the great engineering skills of FLDS workers. He seemed genuinely concerned with the plight of the women and children of the YFZ. NO HYPE! I liked him and his crew. He is a Texan and said y’all a lot. Gotta like a dude that says y’all, makes a person feel at home.

possum said...

Don't you mean to say that it's sad when someone who makes themselves God runs afoul of the laws of the land? The law of the land states very clearly that thirteen year olds can't consent to sex or marriage. And, they damn sure shouldn't be having babies themselves. Calling yourself righteous and godly doesn't make child molestation or child brides any less criminal. Choosing to practice a religion for yourself is one thing - choosing a religion in which there's no choice for someone else is an entirely different issue.

Anonymous said...

Actually the pilot dude is probably right. The law of the land in Texas was 14 and only changed to 16 three years ago. So law of the land has run afoul of the gods of FLDS ( Warren and company). Three years ago, they would have been legal. But I like the " Death Ship" stuff. Has a nice ring to it.

Anonymous said...

anon 5:32


Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult. A girl can get married with parental permission at 16, but none of these girls is believed to have a legal marriage under state law. Also, The man cannot be more than 3years older than the girl.

--MC-- said...

I have enjoyed Pilot's pitures for some time. Thank you for those. It must be odd to see the place pretty much deserted. Although, even when it was fully populated, you rarely people in the pictures. They must curse [nicely I am sure] when they hear Pilot's bird approaching! ARCHITECTURALLY speaking...I like what they've done with the place! The lovely log homes and the nice temple, and all. It's just sad when you realize that some pretty unhealthy things have happened in them. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out in the end. Do they abandon this site and search for another Zion? Rumor has it [per another post] are "they" are looking at other sites.

Anonymous said...

Have you ever flown over the ranch and saw dogs? I read that Warren J. didn't allow members to have dogs as pets.

jberry said...

Wow...are they seriously looking for other sites so they can run, apparently not even a BIT fazed by having every single one of their children removed, and find another unwary community to continue abusing their children? And all the FLDS members say they want is to be left alone to practice their 'religion'--which translates to: 'please leave us alone so we can carry on with our culture of child and spousal abuse'.

I just got done reading Carolyn's book and I must say my eyes are wide open now. Since I live in TX, this has been the biggest story here for the past few weeks, so I've been studying everything that is out there on the FLDS. I simply cannot believe most of the things I've read. People can talk all they want about 'well they didn't know any of it was wrong because it's all they ever knew'...which may be true to a certain extent of the women...but the MEN--they knew darn good and well what they were doing was both illegal AND morally wrong.

They were just too busy reaping the benefits of being able to go 'shopping at the wife shop with Uncle Warren' every couple years for increasingly younger women to care that they were engaging in pedophilia and abuse. Not that they would EVER feel bad about it...after all, it is their divine right to have a plethora of wives who 'keep sweet' and obey them without question.

I'm sorry, but the mothers should have felt that SOMETHING was at least wrong...it is simply NOT natural for children to be with someone 60 years decades and decades older than they are. While I understand they were brainwashed in this culture, I also believe at least SOME of their moral compasses are innate. Every mother KNOWS the feeling she gets when a child is in danger, but none of them acted on it to protect their children.

This whole thing is such a travesty. It makes me ill thinking of all those poor children who can't defend themselves...and a majority of the teenage girls pregnant...I cry for them every time I think about this whole deal.

I hope the children got loving foster families who are doing their best to ease the pain of this scary and unfamiliar situation. :(

Anonymous said...

It's funny how people read Carolyn Jessops book and then suddenly they are well informed as to how the FLDS lived their lives:)

jberry said...

Sounds like you're referring to me.:)

Actually, I have known about the FLDS for some time. My cousin owned a business that the FLDS patronized, and then their family moved to Salt Lake City and lived next door to a woman who had escaped from the society--so I grew up hearing about them and being aware of them.

They moved several years ago, however, so my parents and I haven't heard any of the Rulon or Warren Jeffs-era news.
As I said, I now live in Texas, so this story has been all over the news in recent weeks. Due to the recent occurrences, I have been researching the FLDS and trying to find documentation of the recent and current conditions under the Jeffs family. In addition to reading 'Escape', I have read many other reference materials I found at both my local library and online. My casual research is ongoing.

While I do not subscribe to the FLDS' teachings or beliefs I have learned of, I believe in being as well-informed as possible. I wanted to uncover as much information as I could about recent FLDS events, with 'Escape' being one of the more recent tales. I've found most refences in old newspaper postings from the geographical area in which the FLDS have their communities.

The thing I am most moved by is the plight of these abused children (and YES, over 60% of the 14-17 year old girls pregnant or having had children IS child abuse in this country where the FLDS members have chosen to live). I feel for them as they have no choice in any of these matters.

I have not of course heard any firsthand accounts, so I have to rely on what is published online or printed materials in the library. I found this site while searching for information, and I signed up because I am interested in learning about the FLDS to better understand their lifestyle.

I freely admit that I have my own beliefs and opinions on the matter. I came here to discuss and learn. :)

Anonymous said...

Is anyone checking on the other FLDS place in Texas to see if any are going there or might plan to run to there?

Also we know that a baby boy was born today to one of the young girls per Anderson 360 tonight - what about the babies that are going to be born to the adults (over 18) that are pregnant at this time ?? Those poor babies could be going through the same thing that the child that were taken from them recently ..

It just seems to me that they should go through all of these places in the USA and clean them all up.

Anonymous said...

I just did a search on google [["determine age" flds DNA]]
and there were several postings stating that "DNA cannot determine age."
Caroline Jessup herself states that she was spiritually married at 16, became pregnant sometime after this. In the state of Texas she would be a legal adult, she could marry at the age of 16 with her parents permission.
I personally would never become a member of FLDS, for this I would have to believe that their prophet was true. Currently I do not, and after 8 years of studying FLDS and related subject matter, that of LDS polygamy, I still have not, therefore I do not think I will in my lifetime.
However, the media is so biased I am taking it upon myself to do some checking around. Really, I think the age of these women is older than the media is leading us to believe. First off, if someone is 18, they are a teenage, but this is legal age for marriage in most states if I am not mistaken. Age 19, you are still a teenager, but this is not illegal.
If the women who have been pregnant are 19, 20, 21, 22 then they are legal. If the women who have been pregnant are 18-21, then one might be illegal.
Do you see what I think they are doing by this example?
There may be one case or there may not, but by careful wording "14-17" year old teenagers they are using a scare tactic. Who ever is doing this might actually be breaking the law, if all of the once pregnant women end up being 19 or older.

Anonymous said...

It only takes one child who is under age to indict all the leaders with conspiracy to commit a felony or cover up a felony. There will be many people going down for this. All you need is one, ask Warren he should know.

Anonymous said...

Caroline Jessop says she was 18 when she was forced to marry Merril Jessop (who was 50 yrs old). The sad part was that she had dreams of going to college and didn't even know Merril until a day or two before the wedding. Who cares if it was legal or not? That's just sad.

Anonymous said...

I'm new to this blog. I found it when I began researching the FLDS after the raid. I have enjoed learning from you all. I am no expert on the FDLS or the mormon religion for that matter. So I won't judge the FLDS at this time. My cousin, married a girl about 15 years ago who was Mormon. He converted and we haven't seem him since. I know he does keep in touch with his family and I don't believe he has anythin to do with FLDS. So since then I've been curious about the religion as I am with all Religions. I believe most religions have the basic concept to love and respect each other. I would like to think that the basic principles apply to the FLDS, before Warren Jeffs took over. However, like all religions or buisnesses ( I believe organized religion is a business) can become corrupt and abusive. You can look at many religions and churches that fall into this catagory. I have also read Carolyn's book, Escape. I found it a very intersting read and can believe her story. I could not believe this was happening in the USA. I'm sure, as she stated, that not all men are like Merrill. But then again I don't know. I found the abuse in her case, very similar to other abuse in families that are not polygamist or FDLS. I have seen similar abuse in my own Cathlic monogomous family. Whenever there is power,money and greed, abuse will follow. I will continue to learn more about this. I think education is valuable. I wish I could walk up to one of those ladies and say you are beautiful, strong and wonderful. You are Gods child and a loving God wants all his children to be loved and respected. If it wasn't for woman, those men wouldn't have the kindom they wish for. But that's just me talking. I wonder how they would feel if the new prophet, said God gave him a revelation....Woman should rule the home and the Men should now cater to woman. Since the woman have suffered for thousands of years its thier turn to be worshiped. Men should work and submit to thier wives. Woman now can have multiple husbands.....I see a much healthier and happier religion.....Just being funny, but hey isn't that what they are saying about men. As they say what's good for the goose.

I understand its a cultural thing, its how people are raise and what they believe. I get all that.

Freedom of religion not freedom to abuse. I look forward to learning more from you all. In fact after all the babble, I have a question.

When a spiritual marriage takes place, do the woman take on the husbands last name or do they keep thier maiden name for state benefit purposes? I saw the list of names on the legal notice they posted in the eldorado success. I was wondering if those mothers names were their married names or not.

Please forgive spelling or grammer errors, my little guy is climbing on me as a I write this.

Bogdana said...

if this religion didn't cruelly hurt so many children who grow up and let the pain and torture continue, I'd be against wrecking this place. But this is clearly just as detrimental a cult as the Hale-Bopp followers.
I pray those kids get help and aren't sexual slaves for a bunch of chosen predators when they grow up.

Anonymous said...

to the above blogger, even though they do not have the legal right, the woman take on the name of the husband, I have seen then use both names together too.
Several years ago a small child was killed by a big dog, after that because of the sins of one dog all the dogs were rounded up and either put in shelters or killed.

Anonymous said...

Just a few questions...based on what they believe, not me.....Should we really feel sorry for any of them? Isn't this happening because they are not in harmony with their priesthood??? Doesn't bad things happen to them because they are disobient? Should they all just keep sweet?

Anonymous said...

So, I gotta ask any FLDS members who read and post here this. Suppose I wanted to have multiple husbands, and I came to you and said that my God told me I should marry your fourteen year old son. Let's say that I had a whole household of young boys in my stable. And let's say that I was the undisputed head of the household. And I came to the houses of these young boys and their parents and I exhibited subtle pressure on these boys to marry me, often with very little notice. Then I saddled them down with fatherhood so that it would be difficult for them to escape. Would you find that acceptable in your eyes? After all, as the poster above said- what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right?

Anonymous said...

For anyone whining about no warrant to inter all the houses -- too bad
warrant covered ALL buildings and structures:

here is a copy
http://web.gosanangelo.com/pdf/FLDSaffidavit.pdf

Anonymous said...

thank you 9:39 AM for answering my question in regards to the last name.

I have a few more follow up questions about last names. What happens to those wives and children that were re-assigned? Do they use both husbands names? Or Are their names changed to the new father's name? Also, what about those wives and children of Rulan Jeff's that were re-asigned? Is it different if its a Prophets family or the death of an active those that lost thier families because of excummunication. If so how? I find the whole thing very interesting...I could go on and on...But I won't. Thanks.

citizeninTexas said...

I dont understand if there was nothing illegal going on why would they not allow basic health screening and now the state as evidence that some of the boys have been sexually abused and that 60% of the teenage girls are pregnant or have given birth. If they have religious beliefs that is fine but they have to be in the confines of the laws in the state in which you reside.

Anonymous said...

I personally do not want to share my husband with anyone else. I can care for him and love him enough. I understand what these others believe and that is their choice. There really is only one judge and we all meet him in the end. It is not my place to say if they are right or wrong.

Anonymous said...

To one of the above bloggers who mentioned that "60% of the teenage are pregnant or have children".

Up until yesterday only 2 girls they believe to be minors were actually pregnant.

Isn't it interesting that a day or two before they state just unilaterally decided 25 girls who have stated they are 18 are not. I wonder out of the 31 total girls they are talking about how many are from that group of 25??

Open your eyes.

Anonymous said...

Well the national average for sexual abuse is 1 out of 3, there are 213 young men being held captive so 71 of those need to have been abused to reach the national average.

They need to find 83 abused girls to reach the national average.

Which society is perverted?

Anonymous said...

like one dude above said, all ya need is one, to send the whole group to prison!

Anonymous said...

Your teachings are racist. You don't even say 'African American', but 'blacks'. This whole 'religion' seems pretty contrived for ones' own desires and needs, with no focus on giving back to God, eachother or the community. We are all God's Children, all races.


"God gave a revelation to Joseph Smith denying blacks the priesthood. Church leaders understood and followed it until when, in 1978, uninspired men (President Kimball and the Council of the Twelve Apostles), using their own wisdom, changed the commandment. Giving Blacks the priesthood has resulted in the loss of the priesthood, defilement of the temples and His divine displeasure." - cited from www.mormonfundamentalism.com

Your 'religion' ritualistically defiles young girls and your incest has created the situation with Fumarase Syndrome.

This 'religion' is not of God but of man, and thus is is fallen, like everything of man that has and will fall. Only God is eternal and His wrath is upon you now for likening yourselves unto Him. Like Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden who tried to be like God and were punished, God still loves you, you are his children, but you have it wrong and He is showing you that now.

I am a Christian, a Cathoic and a Youth Minister, and faithfully and logically speaking, mormonism is not a Christian religion. Christian's believe that Jesus Christ is the ONLY SON OF GOD, that He died to open the gates of heaven, and that He rose three days later. I try to respect everyone's religious beliefs, but when they abuse and ignore basic human and civil rights, real Christians, that believe in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the only means to save souls, (not man-made laws and religion, but Christianity from Christ HIMSELF)must draw the line of tollerance and acceptance, and call sin by its name, and the FLDS is ripe with sin.

Anonymous said...

We don't need a minister a the Whore of Babylon church lecturing us, considering the fact your minions of "priests" "ritually defile" children everyday. Hey Mr. Pot meet Mr. Kettle.

Anonymous said...

3:37

"mormonism is not a Christian religion. Christian's believe that Jesus Christ is the ONLY SON OF GOD, that He died to open the gates of heaven, and that He rose three days later."

Hey moderator. Why do you allow these posts and yet do not post my replies to rebut the assertion that Mormons are not christian? I've been LDS for 36 years. Mormons DO believe in Jesus Christ, believe he is the only son of God, believe that he died on the cross to save mankind from sin and that he rose from the dead in resurrected glory three days after his death. I've heard people claim LDS believe in a "different" Jesus. The Jesus I know calmed the seas and walked on water, performed the miracle of the loaves and fishes, raised lazareth from the dead, prayed in the garden of Gethsemane, died on the cross and was resurrected three days later. You can read all about him in the King James version of the Holy Bible (that's the one Mormons use).

People who claim anything else are grossly misled. Once again, and hopefully this time moderator you will allow it to be posted, there is only One who will judge who is truly christian and who is not and that is Christ himself when we each face him to be judged.

Anonymous said...

The Eldorado Success is reporting that fake calls to womens and childrens shelters continued for days after the raid at the YFZ Ranch. Info came from arrest warrant issued for Rosita SWinton.

www.myeldorado.net

kli said...

Well the latest news says 40-some young children may have broken bones, and some of the young boys look like they were molested too.

This is the end for YFZ. Good riddance. I hope and pray that these children and young women can enjoy some freedom and peace in the future, as far away from these men/fake prophets as possible.

Anonymous said...

"How Wonderful Zion could have been" is the best quote I ever heard. How many have wished for it but never laid eyes on it. At least we can see what it would have looked like. Thanks Pilot

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know how many woman left the FLDS after the raid? Did anyone, use this chance to get out?

BerryKnoll said...

Pilot, thanks for the great pictures. Lots of mixed emotions viewing them.

Anonymous said...

To anonymouse 6:27

Reports have stated that once all of the children were seperated from their mothers and taken to foster homes, the mothers were given a choice to either go back to the ranch or go to a womens shelter. 40 out of 47 mothers decided to go to the womens shelter rather than going back to the ranch. The FLDS website reports that the mothers were told by CPS that they were more likely to have contact with their children while they were foster care if they were at the womens shelter. The website claims that this the only reason why all the mothers did not come back. I bet some of the 40 mothers could have seen this as a way out while the others just want any and every chance to be with their children. Which is how I think most mothers would feel or should feel.

annie said...

The point of fact that we are even arguing over what is legal and illiegal should make (FLDS) women think, G maybe somethings wrong here.

If a boy grows up to be a "child lover", has children of his own. Molest and rapes them. The child grows up with this type of life style, does this child know that something bad is going on? NOOOO they think its a normal life and that everyone is like this, so they dont argue with it, tell anyone and to some extent look at it as a good thing because it might be the only attention they get from him. These women and children are the same way to me. They really have no idea what is right or wrong when it comes to childrens rights or theres and how these men should be behaving with them.

REAL MEN DONT MARRY NOR IMPREGNANT YOUNG GIRLS.

I really do hope that this is the start of something that will eventually rip down everyone of your communities.

Anonymous said...

when a woman is reassigned the children are also sealed to the new husband and use his last name, that is why there is so much confussion. all married woman are referred to as Mother, another reason for the confussion.
As for the person that knocked the catholic minister shame on you! and to the catholic minister, some of the FLDS are chistians under your difinition, Winston himself the bishop of bountiful wrote in his blog that he belived, but needed to follow all the man made rules for Salvation.

Anonymous said...

CPS Commissioner Carey Cockerell told a legisltive oversight panel Wednesday that at least 41 children taken from the polygamist compound in West Texas had suffered bone fractures, some of them multiple times, which suggested a pattern of child abuse.

Looks like the CPS is really scratching the bottom of the barrel to create some selfjustification. OK! 10% of the kids have had a fracture; show me where that ratio is unusual for kids that are raised without TV, internet, or malls.

I agree that something had to be done, but the State of Texas is just going to shoot themselves in the foot with this kind of "railroading" tactic.

Anonymous said...

I've heard to terms and I'm trying to figure out what they are. In "Escape" she mentions the children playing the game "Apacolypse"- what is that and how is it played. Second, I read about a place FLDS kids hang out in Colorado City called, "the edge of the world"- where is that and how did it get that name?

Thanks!

Anonymous said...

hey 4:15, love how you called the catholic names and never addressed teh racism comment. I'm not getting intot he whole catholic thing, but I just am looking at how FLDS members ALWAYS change the subject adn insult and ridicule anyoen who questions them ont something they don't havea prepared answer for....interesting... and it probably won't change...you will probably insult or ignore this comment rather than addressign the race issue, like you have ignored and insluted all those who questions the situation in Texas.

Anonymous said...

In Colorado City do the FLDS take the sacrament at home or in the church?

Anonymous said...

Sometimes, I wonder if my own children will survive their own childhood. My oldest is a three year old who a climber/jumper that takes rather daring leaps at times. Don't any of these CPS workers have children of their own?
I would be more concerned if none of the children had a bruised shin; that would show they were denied childhood.

Anonymous said...

I'm the guy that "knocked" the minister of the Whore Church. I am more then happy to address his racism accusation... First of all he was offended that people call them "black" not "african-american". That is the stupidest thing I've ever heard, most blacks and whites use the terms black and white. African- American is a term invented by the race hustling poverty pimps, most blacks have been American for many generations and have never set foot on the continent of Africa. I don't hate blacks but Yahweh has excluded them from the priesthood, just like he excluded most of Israel during Old Testament days.

As for injured children... it's 41 out of 463... less then 10%!! Studies show 50% of children sustain a fracture before adulthood. The FLDS is FAR under average, which is amazing considering their kids run, play, work and don't just vege out in front of the boob tube.

Sensationalism is ugly in any setting.

Anonymous said...

This Whole Polygamy thing is horrible. As a christian I am so against what has happened in Eldorado. Those children have been brainwashed by their Cooky parents. A man is meant to have 1 wife to love not 2,3,4,5,6ect. Men are not supposed to have sexual relations with young gorls!
Stop the madness shut down the polygamist camps!!

wifey said...

Anon 11:21, there are a good many parents out here on the outside who don't own a "boob tube". There are even more who limit the "boob tube"-watching in their homes.

Some of you are so mad that those of us on the outside judge you for your lifestyle. You have done this to us since your group began. Doesn't feel good when the shoe is on the other foot, does it?

Seriously, do you believe that all of us are the same? That most of us are out having underaged sex and cussing while watching rated "R" movies? Do you think we allow our children to play video games and watch tv while eating Cheetos?

Feelings of superiority help keep people subscribing to your wacky notions of righteousness.

Anonymous said...

Why are you assuming I'm FLDS? Many regular folks are coming to the same conclusions about these trumped up stories Texas is putting out.
BTW, you never addressed how the rate of bone fractures amoung the FLDS is lower, far lower, then the national average.

Anonymous said...

Anyone who hasn't had a three year old manage to get candy from the top cupboard eight feet off the ground is missing out on the joys of parenting.

Anonymous said...

As of today the Age of Consent in Canada is 16. There is an age thing for those 14 and 15 and someone 19 or under. When the committee met last year to concider changing the age several of the Woman of Bountiful were there to show their support.
I have four children, we live on a farm and go to the small town hospital, most of the nurses knew me very well when my kids were younger, we had our share of stitches and one broken colar bone.

citizeninTexas said...

Funny thing is they dont allow candy so what is the excuse i understand that kids get hurt i have three but broken bone in very young children is not normal.

Anonymous said...

9:10 AM
Last I knew sacrament was administered by priesthood fathers to their families at home.

The men also partake during their priesthood meetings (men only).

Anonymous said...

All I hear is complaining from Yankee liberals or FLDS. Welcome to Texas!
If you are north of Lubbock or live in Austin, your opinions do NOT count. That's how the folks from West Texas view the world.. That's funny ( and true ) don't care who ya are!!

Anonymous said...

6:53 Anonymous,
Welcome to U.S. of A.
Grow the h*ll up!The rest of the United States don't give a crap about what Texicans think.Your opinions do NOT count!Thats funny (and true),don't care who ya are!!

Anonymous said...

Last I heard state of Texas was undergoing a Corvusectomy, as other damage control measures are rapidly failing.
They have screwed this up so bad, they risk the chance of having it all thrown out by a higher court before they get a chance to really help these kids.

kli said...

Texas better finish this off, not like the 1953 raid where they chickened out. I have hope that Texas will see this through to the end and finally free these poor women.

Anonymous said...

Where are the woman organizations? What are we all doing to help protect the woman and children of this country? We are all judging, but what are we doing to change this? I believe the men need to pay for their crimes and anyone who protects them. Yes we all have beliefs and opinions, but why aren't we doing anything to change what is happening to woman and children all over the US?

Anonymous said...

TO the blogger who isn't getting his posts posted I sometimes have to post three times before getting the message at the top.
If the Foster homes show these children love and respect and that a lot of what they have been told isn't happening in the outside world they will go back and remember the good things...then the raid was a success.

Anonymous said...

First, the FLDS argue that they have been "targeted" in violation of the First Amendment. The argument takes a First Amendment concept and grossly misapplies it. While it is true that the government cannot choose a particular religion to be treated differently from other religious (or similarly-situated secular) organizations, the government is not prohibited from stopping criminal conduct even if the only ones engaging in the behavior are religious or if the conduct is restricted to the property of a religious organization. In short, a government may not discriminate against a group, but the Constitution does not force authorities to willfully close their eyes to criminal conduct.
This raid was about child abuse, and as I explain above, it is not really any different than authorities entering a drug den or a private home where there are credible accounts of abuse. The child protective services universe is sufficiently stable by now that whoever is sexually abusing a child can be made to stop. It is the best interest of the child that determines government action. That is obviously what is happening in this case, and the attempts to misleadingly shift the focus to the religious identity of the perpetrators is not justified by either law or basic decency. There is simply no religious defense to criminal behavior. That this behavior was so heinous makes using the cover of religion for it all the more appalling.
Second, the FLDS argue that the government simply cannot interfere with a religious enclave and that they should have autonomy from the government's interference. This latter theory has been touted by more mainstream religious organizations in recent years, especially those battling clergy abuse, but courts have not had much patience with the notion that autonomy includes within it a right to be free to abuse children. I would hope that the mainstream religious organizations that have been pushing "church autonomy" are having second thoughts as they watch this particular group embrace their vision to justify systemic and systematic child sexual abuse.
Finally, there are those who would argue that the age of sex and marriage is merely "cultural," and, therefore, the government has no business interfering with this sort of religious group. That is one of those arguments that is hopelessly behind the times, as it treats children as property rather than persons. It was not long ago that they were, in essence, nothing but property. The Texas authorities give one hope that they are moving surely and steadily into the category of persons -- persons who have civil rights that protect their bodily integrity against adults who would use their position of power to take what these children cannot freely give.
`

Anonymous said...

Answers to above.
Point 1.
It is not abuse to arrange a marriage for a 14 year old. That is not abuse. Abuse is an incorrect term to use. The use of this term in this instance quite the same term a foreign party uses to justify oppressive abitrary activity, a bit like when Hitler anexed Austria, to save the germans there.

If the young man or lady is ready and wishes to marry, it is not abuse. It may not always be wise, but with much guidance and love, it can work out for the best.
marriage at a young age is clearly a part of these peoples cultural religion, and sex before marriage is most definately against their religion. The sanctity of their marriage vows also is paramount.
Thus these are not abuse cases, they are somethinmg quite different, and to seek to hide behind our claims that these children were being abused may hold water with the small mindedness of Texans, it isnt going to stand up in the courts of heaven, where we will all be judged for our actions.
Need I call us to remember that some 3 years ago, marrige at age 14was not abuse. Unwise in our society, perhaps, but abusive. No.

Point2.
As it is not a case of abuse, but of culture, which has not even yet been sought to be understood, The Government as our servant, is there to do our biding, and our servants have not been given abitrary powers to enact genocide upon a clearly pios people. Our servants have now abused their positions and the authority of their positions and are effectively guilty of an act of treason.
Point 3.
I couldnt actually find any distict point of truth in the final statement above, but I did find a lot of rehtoric.
here it is piece by piece.

'Finally, there are those who would argue that the age of sex and marriage is merely "cultural," and, therefore, the government has no business interfering with this sort of religious group. That is one of those arguments that is hopelessly behind the times, as it treats children as property rather than persons.'
How is it not cultural? It is exactly cultural, and we are not talking about rape or abuse, but marriage at a young age, if the youth so wishes. In our culture over 18% of new born babies are born to single mothers. That too is cultural. Its not terrific, but its what our culture does. Should we loose all our women and children because of this unwise practice. No, and nor should they. It is a witch hunt, it certainly is not about justice.
How does youthful marriage equate toi children being property. It doesnt, that is rehtoric again. In their religion, there are serious principles to abide by and no sex before marriage is one of these.
Now we all know that some youth want to get going with sex before others, and perhaps to reduce this outside of marriage they marry the wilder ones off young. So is that a crime, because their daughters marry to some good hearted men, rather than sleep their way into an empty and regretful life where nobody wants them. I think our society has more to learn from theirs that we have from them.


'It was not long ago that they were, in essence, nothing but property.'
Rubbish, I do not recall when children were ever property. You speak as though our forefathers did not love their children. perhaps yours did not, but mine lived and died for their children.

'The Texas authorities give one hope that they are moving surely and steadily into the category of persons -- persons who have civil rights that protect their bodily integrity against adults who would use their position of power to take what these children cannot freely give.'

This is based in your belief that a child with total freedom will make better choices for itself than loving parents would.
Fact is, our society is dying, our often young women are single mothers, or divorced, so how has this freedom which you seem to prize above principles and disciple served us. As a principle,. the freedom to do what we wish is destroying us, Why, because as yough spiritsd in bodies we are like dumb animals, and have mush to learn. But we cannot afford to learn the hard way in all things, so it is better that we be obedient to wiser elders. That is a trusted and proven principle, rather than this total freedom that you speak of, which you would give these sheltered children over to.

There socity as yet and until i see real evidence of any sort of real abuse, beats ours hands down.

Remember the words of the Prophet Daniel, all the kingdoms of the world will fail, the last of iron and clay will also fail, that is us, the kingdoms of the anglo-saxons. We will fall, and a small stone unforced or shaped by man, will grow to fill the earth. its principles shall be much closer to the principles of these peoples than ours, so we had better stop thinking we are so God all mighty right in our actions, get on our kness and get to know just what the word God means.
It means what works, what is sustainable, and our society isnt. Thers might need a bit of tweaking here and there, but it smells a lot sweeter than ours.

'

Anonymous said...

Anon, 10:23, your post is very long winded and I got bored reading it; however, I wanted to ask a question about your statement in the beginning of your post, "The sanctity of their marriage vows is paramount."

If it's so paramount then why do men leave their wives and children on one compound (UT or AR) and take the younger wives to a different compound (R-17)?


Are you a man thinking about becoming a member of their "sweet religion"?

Anonymous said...

That question is for you to ask them, to understand their culture, their religion, before you fill the air with inuendo.

When they have given the reasons for specific instances, then both you and I will be able to judge, until then, GIVE THEM BACK THEIR CHILDREN.

Just like the abuse claims.

What of all those who have wives and children that were over 14 three years ago, or over 16 since last year. Give them back their children.

Again we do not understand this or that thing as yet, and Yes that is partly their fault, but it is also simply beacue they do not trust the world and its hedonistic ways, but this doesnt justify what we are doing.

citizeninTexas said...

In the state of Texas a 14 year old can not give consent to anything therefore call it abuse or whatever you want but its against the law which ever way you look at it. If a child age 15,16,17cannot be with an adult older than three years within there age range. I cannot understand how any of you can say that the state messed this up HOW? I cant see that they messed up anything a report was made they got a warrant it does not matter that the report was false they did not know that and their job was to protect the girl and now that they know the report could have been false they clearly have reasonable cause to keep the children in custody. because if they didnt they would have been returned.

azmom said...

I wish I knew the answers to all of the questions being raised here. I too have studied the FLDS and as a non practicing LDS can tell you there is a lot of similarities. The difference being that LDS does not practice polygamy for a good reason. It's illegal. These poor kids are so confused right now that I wish we could make it all go away. I do think Texas did the right thing. As far as I'm concerned they had no choice but to go into the compound. Trust me they knew what was going on in there.

Anonymous said...

Were a fouteen to sixteen year old is found to have been married off as it were, investigate. Other than that, give them back their children.

wifey said...

What kind of man wants to be intimate with a girl (14-18) who's barely physically mature?

A pedophile.

Too bad there has to be laws to enforce that natural boundary!

ps: weblog administrator, where is my post from y-day?

Anonymous said...

Anon 4:07--You cry-- GIVE THEM BACK THEIR CHILDREN--but give them to whom?? Since, under WJ's, it seems to be a, somewhat, regular practice to kick some men out, strip them of a families and give them to another. So to whom do you give the children? Children are blended in families where they may not even have [I have read],either biological parent.
The BANISHED parents have first legal claim to those children, not the group. Hence, the DNA. Hopefully, that will help reunite families seperated by this horrible situation.
**Sassy**

Anonymous said...

14 to 15 is a bit young.

16-18 is OK. definiatly not twisted, which I think is what the 'pedophile' label intends.

What tells us about mating suitability isnt age, because people dont have their age stamped on their forehead, and it all times past ones age was easily forgotten.

Its the development of their bodies.

When all the curves are in the right places, their physicaly ready.

So just be careful who you label as twisted, because it might be your daughter or son or grand daughter who gets labeled by other less than thoughtful person.

Anonymous said...

Yes the ranch has been moved on from.

Anonymous said...

Hey all you gullible mindless lemmings that got sucked in by Flora and Carolyn et. al. and believe their woeful lies: I just saw them headed for a cliff to jump off, you better mindlessly follow them and quickly.....PLEASE.

annie said...

14 to 15 is a bit young.
16-18 is OK. definiatly not twisted,
which I think is what the 'pedophile' label intends.

When all the curves are in the right places, their physicaly ready.



----------------------------

You said it right there buddy,

PHYSICALY READY, NOT MENTALY READY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



First off i shouldnt be suprised reading that post but i have to admit i read it a few times, and I still cant believe what i just read.

So Dear, let me educate you about what a real mother is.

If you came near my daughter (whom is now 16) and your older then 18 yrs old I would casterate you, period, and gladly go to jail for doing so.

We only have one time in our lives to be young, and carefree before the realities of real life kick in. it should not be abused by perverted adult men that use them for there "Physically mature" bodies.

Lord, this website makes me want to be a lesbian.

Anonymous said...

God Bless Flora Jessop!

The Heavenly Father/Mother loves her.

Anonymous said...

I didnt say mentaly ready did I, I just set forward the physicality of it all.

What youve said is not good enough for me. Its too broad a statement.
18 and one month is OK, by your own words. Thats not OK by me.

I would rather a righteous man take care of my daughter, even if he were 15 -20 years older than her, rather than an unrighteous 20 year old.

As for her age, well it depends on her doesnt it.

I do disagree on the carefree stuff youve mentioned, and its no real reason to have a young lady or man marry at an older age, just so they can have some carefree years. We do not seek to preserve the virtue of our youth so that they can be carefree. We do so that they may avoid pain and sin, and that they might find true joy and happiness when they marry.

Also time means tucker and tucker means work and fair contribution, even to a youth of age 7-8 onwards.

All spirits should have some seriousness impressed upon them from birth, and not just a trickle from age 15 or so onwards.

Life is not for fun, its for growth.

Anonymous said...

You say "Large shots of how Zion could have been"......

Zion will not be in America.... Zion will be in East.... Oddly enough the USA is not even hinted at in the Scriptures, God will not reveal His glory there to you, ALL of the end times will be centred around the East.

Know Jesus, Know God
No Jesus, No God!

The truth is written, you just need to read it the way God wrote it, not the way "a man" interpreted it.

In His Love
Jenny

Anonymous said...

12:22

Let's not forget that some of these "righeous" old men were not that righteous at 20 themselves. Some were worse at 20 than their OWN CHILDREN that they are casting out.

I would be careful with your comments, I think your doing your cause more harm than good, especially the comments about even 7-8 year olds doing fair work.

The thing I find wrong with the whole picture is the FLDS want to protect their children from the world instead of teaching them how to handle the world and eventually being on their own. I totally disagree with the statement beat into me since infancy "There is no turning 21 in this priesthood." When my children grow up, I will want them to make their own choices and not come asking "Dad" how to best manage their own affairs. When they are of age and have left the nest, it will be none of my business if they have little hidden vices, and I don't intend to pry it out of them, like Warren has done with so many people and even cast people out because of it. Let's face it, if we hide our children from the world instead of teaching them how to handle the world, we are failing in our responsibilities as parents, and I view it as a form of slavery to not deliberately try to set our children on the path of self-sufficiency. That's why I say to be careful; you may be doing your cause more harm than good.

Speaking of asking "Dad", a little humerous(?) was an appointment to see Uncle Rulon and he didn't always close the door. Well, a man was asking for permission to still try to have children with his wife because he wasn't certain whether or not she was "beyond the age". That is total nonsense. People don't need to be asking others how to manage their private lives. People don't need prophets invading the privacy of their business, family, and intimacy. They need to learn to be free and to set their children free.

Anonymous said...

12:22

Let's not forget that some of these "righeous" old men were not that righteous at 20 themselves. Some were worse at 20 than their OWN CHILDREN that they are casting out.

I would be careful with your comments, I think your doing your cause more harm than good, especially the comments about even 7-8 year olds doing fair work.

The thing I find wrong with the whole picture is the FLDS want to protect their children from the world instead of teaching them how to handle the world and eventually being on their own. I totally disagree with the statement beat into me since infancy "There is no turning 21 in this priesthood." When my children grow up, I will want them to make their own choices and not come asking "Dad" how to best manage their own affairs. When they are of age and have left the nest, it will be none of my business if they have little hidden vices, and I don't intend to pry it out of them, like Warren has done with so many people and even cast people out because of it. Let's face it, if we hide our children from the world instead of teaching them how to handle the world, we are failing in our responsibilities as parents, and I view it as a form of slavery to not deliberately try to set our children on the path of self-sufficiency. That's why I say to be careful; you may be doing your cause more harm than good.

Speaking of asking "Dad", a little humerous(?) was an appointment to see Uncle Rulon and he didn't always close the door. Well, a man was asking for permission to still try to have children with his wife because he wasn't certain whether or not she was "beyond the age". That is total nonsense. People don't need to be asking others how to manage their private lives. People don't need prophets invading the privacy of their business, family, and intimacy. They need to learn to be free and to set their children free.

annie said...

I did not say that CHILDREN at the ages of 15 to 18 should be all fun with no work. But they should not be married off nor sleeping with men that are so much older then themselves, nor should they be "taken care of" as you put it by someone at that age except from their parents!

My daughter has her fun times and she has time for work. But she is a child and all children should be given some leeway of free time to be themselves with out her life being stickly work, work, work. She'll have 55 plus years of her life for that, raising children, and taking care of her family, why rush it.

Shes being educated tell the 12th grade and going to college so when she's a true adult she'll be ready to make wise decisions for her future and to whom she chooses to marry.

It wont be chosen for her by a man thats 30 years her senior that thinks he knows whats best, or is being rewarded with another young wife because he stayed in the lifestyle and loyal for his many years.

there are plenty of younger men out there that are good men, a 16 year old does not have to marry a man 20 plus years older then her to find a good marriage and man.

If you are raising your young men right then they should all be righteous, so there should be plenty of good young men around your community from the ages of 18 to 30 that would marry these say 17-18 yrs plus girls at a more appropriate age differance.

If a young woman at 18 - 19 chooses to marry on her own so be it thats her decision.

men seem to think that because a girl has periods, and a pair of breast and gets your **** hard that she should be ready to get married, thats far from the truth.

and im not trying to be mean here, because there are many things about your lifestyle that are fascinating to me, and as messed up as things are/can be in life many of us wish things were back to 100 years ago when men were men women were women, and people acted better, but its not when it comes to young girls at that age marrying men that much older, we no longer live in the 1800s where it was a necessity to marry a girl off at such a young age because of money/food shortages.

There is no excuse that you can give me for that by saying (well if she wants to then why shouldnt we if shes 16, if she agree's to have sex and "spirtualy" marry us then heck yeah were going to)

I'm sorry but thats no excuse. Your suposed to be adult man that knows better, and knows the differance between right and wrong, and a child from a woman.

a man that much older then these girls should be looking at them as father figures, protecting them, guiding them and teaching them, not sexing them.

Anonymous said...

I liked your reply annie.

I await the figures on just how many 16 year olds were married to 35 year old plus men.

If there are any, I would like to see a televised interview as to why this occured, from each individual party and from what they individually feel and think.

Then I will know if abuse of position has been undertaken.

Until then, I must sympathize with the children and mothers who have been parted and give the benifit of the doubt to all involved.

What do you think?

uncaduff said...

anon /08/2008 3:31 PM. I've got a reputation for being critical, I have read your post several times with the ol "critical eye" and for the life of me I cant find anything wrong with it.
I don't know who you are, but I'll bet we would understand each other.

Anonymous said...

uncaduff who are you talking to?

ie:
I don't know who you are, but I'll bet we would understand each other.

annie said...

Well, I think that if people are happy with sharing their husbands, and the men can handle more then one wife and there all happy (and not abused or ignored) then more then merrier, and I think that all of the children should be with their mothers regardless of my opinion of under age marriages.

and, what’s done is done, if there are girls there that are married with children that are under 18 then the men in that household (husband) should be removed or the 16 year old removed and put with her original parents (or taken out of the community if that’s her choice) until she’s of age then its up to her if she decides to return to her "husband" when’s she's an adult.

The mothers should have had the option of having the men move out or they loose the children until the situation is solved, and if the police are worried about the mothers influencing these children then outside social workers could just as easily put a cot at each of the homes to spend time with the parents and children together to learn, from first hand experience by watching and talking to them both.

and if worse came to worse from pictures of the place it looked huge, im sure that there is plenty of space there that they could have kept these children at so they would be at home but seperated from the mothers/father except for supervised daily visits
so they arent as tramatized, and their cared for properly by their mothers until abuse can be found (if it is) and the state of texas doesnt have to worry about finding homes (for now, or all at once) for so many young children which from what i can see they cant afford nor have the space for.


anyway, I truly do hope that they can find a way to put these kids back with their mothers and father but not at the risk of having those married off and not given options, and opportunities for personal growth and life experience (and i dont mean sexual experience).

You can be both righteous and educated.

uncaduff said...

uncaduff who are you talking to?

I am talking to the person who posted the; anon /08/2008 3:31 PM., article.
OK?