Wednesday, April 23, 2008
What is Freedom?
Many people on this blog who have tried to come out in support of FLDS have mentioned the freedom of religion rights. Do we have the freedom to teach our children what morality is according to our own beliefs? At what point is it really abuse instead of freedom? Are we taking away the freedom of our children by teaching them our own morals? (DISCLAIMER: I am not indicating by this that the present troubles are religious in manner. I still believe it was the underage marriages that set this off.)
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136 comments:
Freedom is not a state of being, but only a perception, The government of this nation was built on the desire for freedom and the survival of that same government required the erosion of those freedoms, and when we run out of freedoms will we have to build a new government?
My take on this is that one persons freedom ends where another persons freedom starts. You have the right to do anything you want, BUT you don't have the right to force anyone else to do anything. So individual liberty, religious liberty, the right to self governance or social freedom for groups of people (native American Indian tribes for example), all stop when they come up against an other persons human rights.
With parents, authority is a little different. Parents have a right to raise their children. Parents have a right to teach their children how to live, but parents have no right to their children's adult lives. A parent holds their children's human right in trust for the kid until the kid comes of age. For example a minor, does not have a right to freedom of speech, freedom of association, sexual consent, or to enter some kinds of legal contracts, and a minor has limited property rights. Parents can prevent their kids from doing getting information, talking to people, having sex or entering a contract. In most cases parents can take away a minors property and do whatever the parents want with it. (No, Johnny you can't use the money you earned bagging groceries to buy a motorcycle because mom thinks you'll kill yourself on the thing.)
Parents can stop their minor children from making irrevocable, life-long, adult decisions, but parents have no right to make those decisions for their children. Minors are not emancipated. They have many of the same limits on their freedom that American slaves did. Some decisions are too important for other people to make for you. Especially decisions that are very high stakes (joining the military for example), or decisions with life long decision that cannot be undone (such as getting an abortion or having a child). The parent may force the teenage girl to get an abortion, keep a baby or give one up for adaption. Either way a mother kills a baby, has a baby stolen or is forced to raise a child. The parent can't take the consequences the kid has too. This is biological. The girl is pregnant, not the mother. I can sympathize with a forty year old woman who want Scottie to beam the fetus into her womb, but its not going to happen. In many ways childhood is an illusion. Childhood is the idea that you can enjoy and explore the world safely, with out consequences. Well at some point kids get out side the utopian sandbox and into nitty gritty reality. The stakes go up. There are no easy answers. A CHILD cannot decide to keep a pregnancy or not. A woman must make this decision. Either the girl becomes emancipated, grows into a woman and makes this decision herself, or she is held in bondage and others use the most profound ability of her body and spirit to force their wishes on her. A boy joining the militaryis no different. A BOY who has not right do decide where to live, who to talk to, or earn his own living cannot make the decision to lay down his life for his country. A MAN must make that decision. When a parent decides uses their daughters labor and body to serve others, or uses their sons life to protect a country the parents have gone beyond custody to ownership. Custody is only for the protection of the child. People need liberty, and self determination. When a parent uses custody to control a minor or forces a minor to take out adult commitments before the minor is emancipated the parent becomes an owner, exploiting their offspring for their own benefit, not a parent protecting and teaching their children. Parents can do anything they like as long as kid have complete freedom when they come of age. If a parent forces a child to assume adult responsibilities before the child is of age and cheats the kid of their freedom thats not custody, it's slavery.
you wrote that it was the underage marriages that set this off...I think it had a lot to do with the closed gates as well, you will notice that in Bountiful, Winston allows the press in, no hiding.
I think God is getting ready get his own DNA. The Bible Says Every thought we think will be accountable in the Day of Judgement. If these people are so abused where is the Diseases like
Gonerreah and Syphallis and Aids and also Drugs and Cigarettes and beer and what ever else that society says is abuse. Just a few simple minded folks trying to live Sec 132 in D&C. Those that have this Law revealed unto them must and shall abide this Law or they shall be damned saith the Lord of Hosts
I would start a screen name if I saw a link. Has anyone ever seen 'Maury'. Every day there are teen girls with two or three kids that are testing the 15th guy and still haven't found the daddies! Is it just me or should these children not be taken from there homes and the babies taken from the mothers???
Freedom is the right of the state to serve warrants on people of any race or creed. If this really was a crank call from an AfroAmerican in CO I would say some lawyer would have the sense to have the warrant quashed and all evidence obtained to be inadmissible.
Freedom we will never have unless we defend our Constutition on a daily basis. All this generalization by the media, as if all 437 children have been abused, if any. Nothing is proven- what happened to American's ability to think critically, instead of having a mob mentality lead by the feeding frenzy of mass mainstream media and bloggers. Where is the blogger who will stand up for due process and innocence until proven guilty? Did the love of our constitution go by the wayside with the Patriots Act? Abuse does not occur in any higher percentage in any particular church or in any particular community. it is everywhere. And do not forget that the marriageable age in Texas was only recently raised to 16 years from 14 years, so before you go riding your merry bandwagons to the lynching, maybe you should wait for due process, if it occurs....
You watch too much law shows on TV and are unaware that the laws for abused women hotlines are slightly different with respect for rules of evidence. The authorities must investigate every call and any evidence of broken laws can be used. It is not "fruit of the poisoned tree" that you are referring to.
joroluvsteresa said...
I have been reading all the responses and everyones outrage at my bitterness and what not. I just want you all to know, I grew up in an awesome place, and I can honestly say I would never change the way I grew up. I was loved and so were all my brothers and sisters. We had a future, something to look forward to. Now my point. These children are living in a totally different world that you or I or anyone can even imagine. They have no future. They are not afforded the same recreation, love, education, social life that we grew up with. Anyone who lived in CC, or Salt Lake in the FLDS religion in the last five to eight years knows that when Warren started taking over, things started changing pretty damn fast. I saw with my own eyes 4 different 14 year old girls that got married, and they didn't want to get married. Only one of those girls was married to a man under thirty. For any of you who have children, how would you feel if it was your little girls? I saw countless men's lives ruined overnight for nothing. Just to remove competition. For those of you who live in fairy tale land, and refuse to open your eyes and see the abuses that are happening every day, just be honest with yourselves, and you will see that what I am saying is true.
And if you aren't outraged at the abuse these women and children have been subjected to, then I feel sorry for your kids and wife
Now for my second point. I have read and heard so many people say they feel so sorry for the parents of these children. I do not feel one bit sorry for the mothers or the fathers of these children. I do feel sorry for the children. They are the innocent victims in this whole thing. But the way that those parents are feeling right now is the exact same way my father, and so many others like him, have felt when Warren ripped his family out from under him. I saw how it devestated him, and it literally just about killed him. You ask, "What right does the state have to take all these children away from these parents?" But I ask, "What right did Warren, Wendell, and Merrill have to take the wives and children of the hundreds and hundreds of men that they removed?" All I am saying is, lets get some stability into these kids lives.
Let them grow up without having two or three different fathers
These are just a few of my opinions. Sorry, but I am not going to back down on this issue. If you don't have the gumption to stand up for what you believe in, then you will fall for anything.
4/23/2008 9:03 PM
And do not forget that the marriageable age in Texas was only recently raised to 16 years from 14 years, so before you go riding your merry bandwagons to the lynching, maybe you should wait for due process, if it occurs....
4/24/2008 6:09 AM
Dear poster
The law was changed in 2005. And thank God it was!
Read the post above from joroluvsteresa.
He lived it and still is living with the fall out of Warren Jeffs the Profit!
So far there is no evidence that any of the YFZ kids have been abused. When I saw the volunteers on TV saying the kids did not know how to play I thought what a load of crap. My kids never had video games and TV and they knew how to play better than other kids who kid because they did not spend all day on the couch staring straight ahead.
A volunteer commented that the little girls were lugging babies around as if they were their own. So what! I spent so much time caring for young sibs when I was growing up that people thought I was a teenage mom. It is called 'learning from life,' 'practising parenthood.'
The volunteers and those involved in this case are imposing their beliefs, their norms on other peoples lives and assuming that because they are in the majority they are right.
I think Jeffs is a psycho based on stories about him, but I do not think the people of YFZ are psychos and no one has the right to take their children away. This is a horror story that needs to come to an end with the families being reunited. Whatever happened to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? Or does that only apply if you have 2 kids, sit them in front of TV all evening and put them in daycare all day while you go work at Walmart.
who's next? it's one thing for democratically elected authorities to investigate substantial allegations of child abuse or statutory rape. it's another thing to kidnap an entire community on the basis of a phony-baloney "tip." no one rounded up all the children in beverly hills just because jamie lynn spears is pregnant.
don't worry. it'll be justified ex-post facto. you can round up 400 kids from any random community in america, including beverly hills, and find some kids who have been abused or neglected. that's a sad fact of american life. but again, who's next? all home-schooled children? all parochial school students? all muslim kids? all poor white kids?
joroluvsteresa.
Anyone who will accuse you of lying, is in a state of inexcusable denial.
it was an awesome place to grow up.
however, the seeds of what has happened, were being sown long ago.
fttc, I think freedom consists of learning; what are the "inalienable rights endowed by our creator" and then defending them against both church and state.
What are those inalienbable rights? I had it proposed that they are couched in free agency, the freedom to make choices for yourself. Do we take that away from our children if we teach them our values as parents and not allow them to get involved in anything outside those values? Speaking of minors of course. If our values imposed on our children affect the choices they make are we abusing them? Are we interfering with their agency to keep them away from drugs, alcohol, prostitution etc? How much freedom do children actually have or should they have? Are we taking away their agency to require them to follow household rules of decency?
in response to fttc
I believe you let your own pain and predjidice get in the way of rational thinking too often. If you believe this is due to the underage marriage then you aren't thinking it through, they have been planning this for months, they didn't have that kind of response in a matter of days, furthermore, nobody did anything to clarify the facts of the call. Furthermore, contrary to popular belief they haven't been able to even prove one underage marriage!! Not even one!! The judge herself says the decision is based on the religious belief system in place. The marriages they have found would have been legal at the time they happened!! Many people have been accused of being much younger than they really are!! CPS is hunting so extremely hard to disprove these ladies ages, x-raying everyone to check for broken bones, looking for any signs of abuse they can. They know they are out of line!! Your posts are pretty well thought out, but you are letting something get in way. I can't pin it down, and I don't want to. At least your now spewing garbage like Flora, John, Carolyn, Elisa, and Becky, who would imagine they would have so many screen names.
Whoever reposted my comment here, thank you. The fact is that we take the freedoms that we enjoy every day for granted. These are freedoms that people in the FLDS don't even know exist.
1. The freedom to chooe your mate.
2. The freedom to have sex when you are ready. Not when your husband is ready.
3. The freedom to go to school and and become whatever you want to be.
4. The freedom to drive whatever car you want.
5. The freedom to live where you want, and with whom you want.
6. The freedom to choose how many children you will have. Not just make babies till you can't anymore.
7. The freedom to be entertained in whatever manner you choose.
These are just a few, I could go on for several pages, and still many people would never understand. Some of you might think I am exagerating, but I'm not. I now have two children, and if I ever put myself in a situation where I was alienating my children, and brainwashing them to a point where I gave up my rights and the rights of my daughter, I pray to God that someone would take her away from me, and help her to know that she didn't have to get married young. Help her to know that she doesn't have to have sex until she is ready. She doesn't have to marry a 50 year old man old enough to be her father. These are rights that our forefathers died to give us. In my huble opinion, anyone who doesn't still stand up and uphold those rights is the worst kind of person in the world.
It's really getting old hearing the argument of "they don't round up a whole community other places".
This is ONE piece of property. Everyone in Beverly Hills doesn't live on the same piece of property. The police wouldn't raid just the pool house of a home, would they? No. Just because a piece of land has multiple buildings doesn't make it multiple properties. It has ONE land deed.
Please stop using this argument.
I would love to see the person(s) that own the mineral rights go in and start drilling next to the temple.
Parents have the right to teach their moral beliefs to their children. This process is going to happen simply by the child living with his parents during his formative years.
Concerns that kids become brainwashed to the parents belief system fall flat for me. I don't know anybody who continued to do things exactly like their parents dictated after they left home. My experience has been that it's almost opposite and kids get out on their own and go a little crazy for a little while. Kids naturally test boundaries and young adults are no different. The "forbidden fruit" of their childhood gets explored to some degree once they get out on their own.
"concerned from the uk",
How would the authorities do anything to verify facts about the call without going in? Unless you are lying about being from the UK, you weren't there to know how it all went down.
Where did you hear that they haven't been able to prove one underage marriage? That's not the news here in the states. Not sure if you heard this on the news in the UK but their prophet Warren Jeffs is serving time in prison right now for arranging underage marriage as well. Not only that, but most of these unions were "spiritual marriages", not legal ones, so why would the judge even refer to them as marriages? It's a sexual abuse situation when one of the parties is 16 and under...period...hence the DNA testing.
What is the judge's name and when did she say the decision was based on the religious belief system in place?
Not that it matters, I don't believe you're from the UK. I think you're FLDS and you have a bit of an axe to grind.
concerned
I am sorry but it is my rational thinking that tells me if you are correct there would be nothing to hide. These people are hiding something. You do not treat law enforcement with disdain when you have nothing to hide. Read the account of Sheriff Doran in how much cooperation he recieved from the YFZ. As far as my pain and prejudice goes I would like you to tell me where my prejudice is and what my pain is for. The only pain I suffer over this issue is that I have seen this coming for a long time. I have seen the FLDS thumb their noses at the law for years now. In spite of the counsel of the leaders there are those men in the FLDS that refused to listen. The young marriages are just another example of this.
When I read the judges decision it was not that she gave the search warrant on the basis of religious teachings. She made later decisions based on this because it was told her it was religious beliefs that caused the underage marriages. If underage marriages are happening because of religious beliefs it would be the same as a religion that believed in human sacrifice and carried them out. They are both subject to the law. I think that if you were correct about the ages of the girls it would be all over the media. It would have been flouted by the FLDS themselves in their press conferences. My line of reasoning here is just as rational as yours is for the other direction. If you can give me the quotes and sources from the judge declaring that religion was the reason for the raid I will concede your point.
According to the Houston Chronicle:
In 2005, the sect's relocation to his district prompted Rep. Harvey Hilderbran, R-Kerrville, to push for changes in the marriage law, including increasing the minimum age at which teenagers can marry to 16, if they get parental consent or a court order. Previous law allowed someone as young as 14 to get married with parental consent.
"Had this bill not passed, there would have been quite a few of them that were married and were pregnant for instance or married with kids that were under 16 that they could not have done much about," Hilderbran said. "I've got some pride in it. It's one of those things I knew it was the right thing to do."
So Hilderbran passed the law in response to the arrival of a religious group who'se practice was LEGAL under existing Texas law. He passed the law specifically to criminalize the practices of a specific religious group.
How does that not violate the separation of church and state requirement?
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"?
According to the Houston Chronicle:
In 2005, the sect's relocation to his district prompted Rep. Harvey Hilderbran, R-Kerrville, to push for changes in the marriage law, including increasing the minimum age at which teenagers can marry to 16, if they get parental consent or a court order. Previous law allowed someone as young as 14 to get married with parental consent.
"Had this bill not passed, there would have been quite a few of them that were married and were pregnant for instance or married with kids that were under 16 that they could not have done much about," Hilderbran said. "I've got some pride in it. It's one of those things I knew it was the right thing to do."
So Hilderbran passed the law in response to the arrival of a religious group who'se practice was LEGAL under existing Texas law. He passed the law specifically to criminalize the practices of a specific religious group.
How does that not violate the separation of church and state requirement?
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof"?
Should we talk about liberty and freedom (which are different) in this discussion?
It's all so loaded.
I do believe parents, as long as they remain within the law's bounds, should be able to pass along their own morality. . . this happens culturally anyway, intentionally or unintentionally. We also own the right, as parents, to protect our children from the harmful beliefs of others. That comes in the form of us helping to create our government and push for new laws.
It becomes abuse when wew try to control our children, threaten them with abandonment through that control (conditional love is a beast many parents do not have a clue about - and they practice it selfishly), take away their freedoms to ultimately make their own choices, and when we break the laws meant to protect them physically and emotionally.
I do not think we take away the freedom of our children when we genuinely obey the laws, act unselfishly for our children instead of ultimately serving our own selfish wants, and live out our freedom and liberty with a great modicum of responsibility and care for others. I honestly think a non-cult understanding of God also makes a big difference. . . we'd better be careful what we do in the name of God. Better make sure that we are following the one and only God instead of believing we ourselves can become gods.
It was this pursuit of becoming gods that these men began the underage marriages and pregnancies. That was selfish and ultimately not serving the one and only true God. That's why these people are in trouble. They can't continue to hide behind "freedom of anything" as long as they break laws that are meant to protect the innocent. Catholic priests can't. Baptist deacons can't. Methodist camp counselors can't. Mainstream mommies and Daddies can't. Neither can the FLDS.
Emily in NC
whats wrong with our country now is we too GOD out of our daily living. We send our kids out an teach them that they do not have to honor the flags we teach them that praying before a meal is wrong. then we want to question why the country is going down like a snow ball headed for hell. I have my own beleifs an I would not like anyone to tell me how I was raised did not matter cause my parents are wrong. I would have loved my parents tp pick my mate, they love me so why would I not trust them? I have been married for 17 years but that is only becouse my faith in GOD an the BIBLE. What ever your faith STAND UP AN BE PROUD I am not sure about your religion but I will not go to hell cause I was stupid enough to judge you, I pray your children come home an that you do right by them, Have a Blessed day
Dawn in Georgia
Whoever reposted my comment here, thank you. The fact is that we take the freedoms that we enjoy every day for granted. These are freedoms that people in the FLDS don't even know exist.
1. The freedom to chooe your mate.
2. The freedom to have sex when you are ready. Not when your husband is ready.
3. The freedom to go to school and and become whatever you want to be.
4. The freedom to drive whatever car you want.
5. The freedom to live where you want, and with whom you want.
6. The freedom to choose how many children you will have. Not just make babies till you can't anymore.
7. The freedom to be entertained in whatever manner you choose.
These are just a few, I could go on for several pages, and still many people would never understand. Some of you might think I am exagerating, but I'm not. I now have two children, and if I ever put myself in a situation where I was alienating my children, and brainwashing them to a point where I gave up my rights and the rights of my daughter, I pray to God that someone would take her away from me, and help her to know that she didn't have to get married young. Help her to know that she doesn't have to have sex until she is ready. She doesn't have to marry a 50 year old man old enough to be her father. These are rights that our forefathers died to give us. In my huble opinion, anyone who doesn't still stand up and uphold those rights is the worst kind of person in the world.
Heres a thought. DEcriminalize polygamy, then maybe all the secrecy would drive everybody so crazy. Course, then that would be fair and this is America, we can't afford to be fair.
"...Concerns that kids become brainwashed to the parents belief system fall flat for me. I don't know anybody who continued to do things exactly like their parents dictated after they left home...." -- Anom 1:40
I agree 100%
..but then how does one explain so many boys and so few girls leaving?
girls rebel just as much as boys.
don't they?
Hmm....?
maybe there's more to all this than just plain old fashion brainwashing?
you think?
keep sweet texas
stg
"concerned from the uk" = "polyg plant"
keep sweet texas
stg
DOES POLYGAMY EQUAL ABUSE?
Does polygamy equal abuse? You say it does, so I must follow that logic and assume that monogamy equals protection.
If children of monogamist relationships are protected from abuse and neglect at all costs then I would agree that it is indeed the better lifestyle. If you can show me that monogamist relationships are fulfilling and rich, with security, respect and love, then that will be my relationship of choice. If you can demonstrate that children in these families are educated, intelligent members of society regardless of race, creed or geographical locations, then I might very well change my belief. If you can exhibit the hearty and healthy family relations in monogamist families, and reveal that it rivals any other life choice, then you will have convinced me of the error of my ways.
When 60% of monogamist marriages do not end in divorce and babies are welcomed into the world as happy additions instead of unfortunate accidents, then you will have my attention. When I can go to any city in America, enroll my children in any school and be assured that there is no abuse, neglect or abandonment then my hearts core will be shaken and I’ll trust you. When I can look around society and on every corner of our globe and see happy monogamist relationships then I’ll be convinced. When there aren’t any women scorned, abandoned, and forced into prostitution and then abortion because of the heinous society they live in, then I will renounce my belief systems. I will disregard the benefit of a lifestyle where there is companionship and trust. I will look away from the loving advantage of multiple families. I will try not to appreciate the wisdom of the aged and the care of mothers who love my own children like their own. I will turn my eyes from the value of teamwork and the independence of industry. I will strive to promote a Hollywood centered example for my children. I will endeavor to tell them that there is love in a world where I only see hate and disrespect. I will teach them the cost of standing up for your beliefs is too steep, that selling your soul to a corrupt and failing society is the far better option. And while I watch them destroy their lives and sell their birthright, I will smile because at least I didn’t allow them to be ‘abused’.
-Wife#2
04/24/08
Dear Wifey #2
Your lifestyle is ILLEGAL.
Now, that is showing your children what is right and wrong.
I believe that I heard on the news (radio) tonight that they had been able to determine that there qwere 25 young women that were under 18 with children that were taken from YFZ. However, I haven't been able to confirm that on any of the sites. Has anyone heard anything like this?
I have a couple of legitimate questions that I hope someone will answer for me:
1. When a (FLDS) wife is transferred to a different husband, she and the children do not just become the husband's financial responsibility, but are also intimate with that man -- correct?
2. I believe that I read that these husbands banished/wife transfers also happened during the times when the prophets were Leroy Johnson and Rulon Jeffs -- correct?
Can anyone answer these questions?
Thank you,
KB
It is an irony that on this website some people are quoting scriptures from their bible and then that same person turns around and spews such hatred. I guess that must be the Christian thing to do. Not one of you who quotes a scripture and then spews hate has ever read any bible from cover to cover. I have studied many different religions and attended several different religious services. Some people are so narrow minded it is their way or the highway no matter who you are. CONVERT EVERYONE. Some people are so simple minded.
Another thing is freedom of religion. Has anyone heard of that? I guess not because you are too busy trying to convert everyone to your own religion. Here is another thing that we have in America; INNOCENT until PROVEN guilty. I guess most of you all have found them guilty in your court. I’ve had a chance to serve on a death penalty case. I actually listened to both sides before I made a decision. I guess no one else here knows or understands that.
13 and 14 year old girls are being forced to marry and have sex with their not-so-distant uncles. It is incestuous. If you want to talk about freedom, let's protect those teen girls.
I am not sure if this is the appropriate place to post my questions but I am interested in understanding this blog, those that contribute and who sponsors it.
After reading for several days (I stumbled upon this website after becoming interested in the raids of the FLDS compound. I have no affiliation with FLDS, LDS...just a curious citizen in Chicago).
1. It seems that many of the posters have first hand experience with FLDS. Do you mind sharing your stories (involvement and where you are now)?
2. Many of you seem to know each other on the blogand those inside the compound. Is this true? Is your family part of this?
3. I continue to hear the same three last names over and over. Do polygamists worry about the effects "inbreeding" has on the offspring (retardation, handicaps, etc)
Thank you for your responses!
KB
#1 is apparently correct at least some of the time as the women have children with the new hubby that time frames involved indicate who the father is.
#2 is ony semi-correct. It is true that there were families broken up in the administration of Jeffs and Johnson. However, until the later days of Jeffs when warren began to take over these men were all notified ahead of time and given many chances to overcome the difficulties they were having in their marriages. It was actually very hard for a women to get away from a man by the consent of the leaders. The leaders viewed the marriage covenant as eternal and respected it as such. warren has repeatedly removed families from men in their absence and in fact it seems this is the preferred method. I do not know of a single case with the previous leaders where it was done this way. (I am speaking of the time prior to Rulon Jeffs stroke.) If I am wrong I hope someone will correct me with those instances.
Wife #2,
This is not about whether polygamy is right or wrong. If it were, you have shown yourself to be just as predjudice towards monogamy as others are towards polygamy, putting you in the same boat.
This is about underaged marriage. It could also be about a lot of other things, but the fact that the FLDS willingly gives up its very young girls as sexual sacrifices to these older men and tosses their young men out like trash is an indicator that there is a lack of respect for HUMAN RIGHTS.
Call it whatever you want and hide behind your modest clothing and back-to-basics lifestyle. The only difference in what you're doing to these young ladies and what is happening on the streets here is that your ladies aren't getting paid.
Dear 9:12,
Does your opinion also refer to the gay lifestyle? Is that also illegal? And if so, would you say that any monogamist man that cheats on his wife is committing a felony?
I don't have a problem with polygyny or 14-year-olds marrying. Wouldn't recommend it, but if that's what people choose then that's their business. The big question though is to what extent people have choice. How many FLDS and others similar to them have a choice? How many people have a truly good experience within the FLDS and how many have experiences along the lines of Flora, Carolyn, or Mary Macklin? Back to my original post in the previous thread, how do we insure people's freedom of choice while still respecting religious freedom? How can we allow a group to practice their religious beliefs while insuring that children and others aren't abused within the group or by overzealous authorities?
Does every woman in the FLDS have an experience like the following (Mary Macklin)? Is this the experience of most or do most have a good life and the Mary's and Flora's are the minority?
http://cbs11tv.com/local/Mary.Mackert.polygamist.2.707138.html
(Note, there's a 2 minute edited interview and then a 29 minute un-edited interview).
BASED ON FALSE ALLEGATIONS, fed by the warped media bias that is based on falsehoods, cynicism and heresay. With a great and impressive show of force, they invaded the safe and peaceful community in which these folks live, where their children are free to play in their neighborhood without fear of drugs, gangs,porn on the internet,alcoholic parents, random shootings, drive-by shootings, kidnapping and random acts of violence and vandalism. A community where the citizens are concerned about good health and nutrition, raise much of their own food, following the tenets of their religion, and tolerating the rights of their neighbors. The state of Texas has removed these children from this environment and placed them WHERE? TO PROTECT THEM FROM WHAT? The Constitutional Rights of this group of people has been TRAMPLED in an unwarranted way that I never thought I would see in this Country. It sickens me, and it is terrifying. If this can happen to a group of good people like these, it can happen to any of us.
4/25/2008 6:41 AM
My position is absolutely NOT to say that everyone should live polygamy, but that we should live in a society that respects the lifestyle choices of each other.
You are assuming that all polygamist marriages are underage because a few are. Think about they sterotypes that you, yourself are creating. All polygamist offer young girls as sexual sacrafices: FALSE. All polygamists have a lack of respect for human rights: FALSE. ALL polygamists wear modest clothing and back-to-basics lifestyle: FALSE (but totally beside the point.) And all polygamists postitute their ladies,just the same as on the city streets only they're not getting paid (that's about the jist of what you said, right?) FALSE. Lets get our facts straight and stop with the blanket-judging.
Being married to a man with more than one wife, I would like to comment here of the way I feel.
I made the choice of my own free will to enter PM, because in studing the gospel I believed it was right for me. I felt like it was a commandment of God to do so, and as Daniel of old chose to continue praying to God, even after the law of the land disallowed that, I too wished to do what I felt was right, and I hope I don't have to face the lions because of it.
Mary, who married Joseph was not his first wife and she was a young teenage girl--much younger than her husband. It is true that many people wanted to take her life, but somehow due to a few kind, caring friends who understood the will of God regarding her situation, she survived.
She too, was at risk of having her child taken from her. Many little children and babies were murdered in an attempt to do that, and I can't help wondering which side would you have been on? - the law of the land that approved that slaughter, or the law of God.
We each have to make our choices in life and we each must face a judge for those choices. I am more fearful of offending the greater judge than the ones here
on earth.
I am sorry to say that I know there are evil, cruel, power seeking men on earth, even among our own people and they need to be dealt with. However, please don't jump to conclusions that all are that way. Many are wonderful providers, loving protectors, reliable leaders and excellent teachers.
Don't throw us all to the lions--please.
jc
You People are all crazey.This religion is not all about god its there so that these old prvers can rape little girls without getting in trouble for it.What we have allowed them to become is shamefull and i feel we should have done something a long time ago.I dont believe any of these kids should be given back to their families.The mothers say they love them but yet there no affection between families as we have herd and then they marrie them off at 13 to 50 year old men to start haveing kids themselves how is that love.I belive they have been using there religion as a sort of a critch so our gov. cant do much because then they say oh its our right and religion but marring underage girls has nothing to do with religion.This is sick and i hope none of the kids go back and the mothers get out for good.
Thank You Nikole
From Illinoise
Merrill Jessop has hired a criminal defense attorney. Why? He hasn't been charged with anything!
READ HERE
From where do these people get their money? If it's from me, I'd like a refund.
Juno,
Well said!
I don't think that modern day humans have a concept as to the belief systems of those around them. I look at David in the Bible and think to myself...this man was close to God and one could be, and yet, he lived a life similar to those who believe in the FLDS message. Children are victims of our society both in the secular and in the religious right. Instilling beliefs should be for parents at the direction of God...not at the direction of a country struggling to maintain its place as a world power.
I AGREE with Juno 1000%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I could not have said it better myself.
Thank you~
Tamara
freedom is nothing nore than what is best for the majority. If it was best for the majority that we shouldn't have hand guns then you can bet that freedom would disaper. As for this cult in texas. It is nothing less than fowlling the law. Without law there would be anarky. This group has lasted this long just because the law was scared of the outcome of inforcing the law. This should have happened 50 years ago. We sentence a cellibrity to years behind bars for taxes, and yet were scared of sentinsing a raper or child molester.
Come on people, this CULT/colony was founded for one purpose only... it was founded by a bunch of God-forsaken pedifiles in order to molest under-age children under the guise of religion! SHAME ON ALL OF THEM!! MAY GOD FORGIVE THEM!!
In light of the circumstances that spawned this discussion, I think freedom can be defined as; the certain knowledge that God has given you a mind that is your very own, and that you have not only the right, but the responsibility to use it for your own wellbeing.
anon 7:19 said "Be very careful who you are accusing of not joining the 21st century. Some of us just might grow a back bone and come kick your prejudicial ass!"
Not only are the FLDS cult members racist and homophobic; apparently, they are violent, too!
...the fact that many men in the community are legally married and have girlfriends that they are intimate with is also a form of Polygamy, and it is not illigal.
One of my Uncles practiced polygamy in this way, he had a legal wife and fathered 2 sons by her sister. Also a cousin was keeping house with at least 2 woman at once, as he didn't try to legally marry either of them it wasn't illigal cause all parties were the age of consent.
anon, 2:10
No one cares what consenting adults regarding extra-marital affairs. Your post is irrelevant.
We care about girls (and boys) who are systematically taught that sexual molestation and abuse are normal ways of life.
BTW: Are you proud that your family appears to be white trash?
fttc-
Just wondering what the reason for my comments not being printed. Is this a private blog? Or do you not wish to hear from sympathizers of the Texas people? Being a mother myself, I can't help but be concerned on their behalf.
jc
For all those who say they love freedom.
There is that call which dictates that we surrender our whole will to God, to be led of him in all things. This is a fact of any spiritual path or call unto God, regardless of thye name of the religion, worldwide.
It is also a fact that 'God' MAY be represented to us in or by our parents,or accepted spiritual guides. Another worldwide fact.
Finding the way to practice this sort of life is what FLDS are trying to do. Again, nothing wrong, infact its all good.
Freedom under basic common law is essential for peaceable societies.
What is immoral or against reasonable basic common law to allow a girl to marry at age 15 if she chooses. Have we forgotten that many of our parents married extremely young. I do not see or feel force in these youths lives. I see and feel a cultural influence and a strong teaching of the principles they hold as true, but this cannot be considered force or immoral, rather, it is a culture, to which a sledge hammer has been taken.
What is immoral about teaching a girl that it is an advanced spiritual step to marry into a plural situation when she does marry. This doesnt seem to me to be against morality.
All girls are different, some wish to mate real soon and real quick, and you cant just make a law that says one can and one cant, The letter of the law is death, but the spirit of love for all people allows for life. Likewise for men.
These plural situations seem far more positive than harmful. They have less divorce, they have less teen suicide, or any suicide for that matter, less rape, virtually no single mothers. Our society breeds Godless lazy and immoral people, their society does not.
The seem to have less obesity, unlike the average fat American.
They seem to be hardworking, they teach their sons to honor and marry the women they bed, and to support them. I am sure that rape isnt in their culture. It may happen, but there is a huge difference between an actual rape and an arranged marriage were the young girl isnt quite sure but goes ahead with it because she belives its the right thing to do.
We think we are free, but our society requires us to work two jobs away from home for 20-30 years to pay off a three bedroom slapped up house on a tiny piece of land, which is not mans land to sell (enslave us with), but Gods land to give us for free.
I think it is us whose thinking is the more backward.
We think we are free, but we are not, that we are somehow intelligent, because we went to College but a plethora of information has not set us free, but we are enslaved, while their Faith makes them more free than us.
If we truly had hearts of love, we would seek to understand their culture, and seek to offer improvements, rather than steal their children.
Texas, remember that as you meet out, you shall receive. Who will steal your children Texas. Your next moronic pupet President. Will he send your children to another useless war and so rob you of your children. I think so.
Look at our choices for next President. Are any of them more qualified than the last two morons.
God help us all, hypocrits that wer are.
Who is Nathan Carpenter?
Reply to anonymous above.
Your right about true Christianity being about the surrender of our whole will and being to God through his true representatives upon earth, or if there are not any, then directly.
Its what Jesus told the Rich man in Saint Mathew Chapter 19. After he counselled him to keep all the Ten Commandments.
Unfortunately many who claim to follow Jesus dont quite get this and continue in their love affair with worldliness
It appears that Ben Stein has come to the same conclusions about this unfortunate travesty of justice which has traumatized these children:
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/27/sunday/main4048476.shtml
Thank you anonymous 4/26/08/ 7:16
(Just a min. I need a tissue to dry my eyes.)
I am so grateful to hear your understanding words --to know there are caring people left in the world.
I am not a part of the Texas FLDS, but I am a mother and grandmother with tiny grandchildren. I worry and I pray for those people whose tiny babies and little children have been stolen from them. And I know that if the gov. can, for no more reason than suspicion, take those children away I could also be at risk of losing my grandchildren. When I watch my innocent little 15 mth old granddaughter who can't really communicate very well yet and relies on her parents and loved ones for her every need I worry-I pray. But, what else can one do? It seems like the judge has a heart of stone.
There is so much abuse in the world. So many neglected children. There are millions of unwed teenage mothers who need help, who want help. As I visited with a friend a few weeks ago another young lady joined us who, during our visit, informed us that she was indeed one of those unwed mothers. She has 3 children, each has a differnt father. She isn't even sure who the father of one of them is. She relies on social assistance to take care of them, and the gov. opts to take the babies of the mothers who love and want their children. If that can happen to them, it can happen to anyone, to you or to me. May God help us.
I get confussed with all the things going on in this religion, I grew up beleiving in one man one woman till death do us part, as taught in Matthew. But even if you tranlate it to believe that one man many woman (polygyny)till death do them part, the whole idea of taking women away from one man and reassigning her would be adultery. But I guess kicking them out of the church is like death so technically that would be okay. But who am I to Judge???
A woman living in fear of the prophet is not freedom.
There is less teenage suicide in the community because the teens that do commit suicide are living out in the bigbad world where they can't cope with reallity/
Anonymous 7:16 pm, are you a man or woman?
Just wondering if you would like, at the age of 14 or 15 to be sent away from your home to be with a man/woman who already has multiple spouses. . . told you are going to have sex with this person, stranger or not - regardless of your attractions (sexual, emotional, intellectual) or lack thereof for this person who may be four times your age. . . you will be responsible for taking care of any and all resulting children from the sexual relations you have with this person, having to share your home and life and children with all other sex slaves in the household, forced to wear certain clothing and do what the master says, punished for thinking for yourself if you disagree with the prophet or man/woman in charge, etc.?
Where is the freedom in that? There was never a choice. And if there was, you could equate the choice to this sort of statement: "You are free to leave, but you will go to hell and be ostracized from us, the only people you've ever known, if you make that choice."
This issue with freedom and mind-control is all jumbled because the FLDS is a cult. It is NOT, I repeat, a Christian sect. The god and Jesus they worship is not of the Christian Bible. Even their Satan is not the same. Christians do not think they could ever become gods or goddesses in any way. Christians also do not, like the LDS and FLDS do, think that God comes from a planetary body called Kolob. Furthermore, Christians believe there is and has always been one and only God who just is and has been. . . LDS and FLDS think their god is one of a long line of gods. This thinking is contrary to the Holy Bible. Please quit calling them Christians or even likening them to Christians.
Regardless of how wholesome you believe their compounds to be, we're talking about individual freedom - not the freedom of an organization to continue perpetrating crimes that steal the freedoms of the individual. The organization wants freedom, but they don't want individual freedom. Is this not clear?
Emily in NC
Anon, 8:24,
You'll need to prove read your post as it has so many errors it's not worth reading. You don't sound very intelligent and therefore can't be taken seriously.
Emily, In your post you write of force and cohersion etc. Isnt this just outsider inuendo. Isnt that alone the justification for stealing over 400 children from as far as we KNOW thus far, loving parents.
Dont lecture us on Freedom, its supposed to be freedom under basic common law that keeps us free, and one of those laws is the right to a presumption of innocence until proven guilty.
I wouldnt claim that things are perfect or that nothing has ever gone wrong in the FLDS, because I really dont know, but the evidence suggests their is more wrong with our society than theirs and that we are doing what we are doing because we have the guns and the social mindset to do so, not because it is justified.
We are in the wrong as I see it, and all wrongs reap an inevitable bad result.
As for cults etc and Christians believing they can or cannot become as God.
The Catholic church is the biggest cult going around, have you ever read the stuff they believe, its nuts, its certainly not founded in reason but in medieval edicts.
And they also believe in plural eternal marriage, as they mary every nun to Jesus,whom we all claim has a male body taken up to heaven.
Didnt Jesus say, be ye perfect even as your father in Heaven, at the least that is counsel to become like God.
No, when I view world religions I see within them that which encourage to all good, and that which ennobles and entices us to all the virtues, and where these principles correspond in any culture, they must be of the same God which I know, who inspires all men and women to come uto him if we will follow, and the evidence of this small group of obviously devout people suggests that they also seek to follow the God of the early Christians.
If you have love in your heart, love them also, and treat them as you would like to be treated, otherwise, if you hate them, and judge them harshly without full individual evidence of wrong doing, then you are not in the light, but yet in the darkness, even until now.
emily,
Do lecture us about freedom. I agree with you. You definitely need to be heard (read.) I believe most people agree with your views.
Hello. Plural marriage is against the law. Sleeping with children under the age of 16 is against the law. You people are cultists and need to be stopped. Shame on you.
Does anyone know:
Who is Nathan Carpenter?
Anonymous 2:48, thank you for your respectful reply directed at me. . . please let me elaborate on cults, the FLDS, etc. from my theological understanding of Christianity. I do not believe all Catholics are Christians (some are, I believe), but there are some things theologically amiss with the Catholic chuch when it comes to Christianity. Saying that FLDS or Catholics might not be Christian is not meant to condemn or send a hate message to these FLDS or Catholic folks - it's just a fact that they are not Christians. Just as FLDS are insulted by those who call themselves Christians outside the FLDS, true Bible-believing Christians agree that it's offensive for FLDS or other cult sects to claim untruths about the Christ they worship. To understand what's going on in the FLDS, we all need to understand their theology better as it affects their practices. There's a lot there that influences their direction in matters that may be illegal. I do not agree that anyone ought to use religion as an excuse to be allowed to abuse anyone. You cannot hide behind it. No matter how sweet they appeaar to us on the outside, they, as you said, are not perfect. Sin likes to hide.
There's a tendency in humanism to believe that everybody really means well, is well-intentioned, etc. and all that. I gather you are a humanist at heart from your words. I challenge you to think on that philosophy. Are we really all so noble? Why do 2 year olds hit and bite without being taught to do so? Are we all innately good?
Just like the FLDS, I am not perfect. . . never will claim that. I myself know my own failings and sins too well. I certainly do not believe myself to be better than FLDS individuals. . . but I also do not consider them to be better off than myself.
Despite my unwillingness to accept them as anything but a cult, I wish the best for them and their children. Wishing the best for someone and loving them doesn't always mean you let them do what they want to do if it's wrong and illegal. (Yes, they have a right to be innocent until proven guilty. . . and I am waiting on that outcome.) Ever had a child you love to misbehave? Did it mean you didn't love him/her anymore just because you had to correct him/her?
Does it mean you don't love others just because you can't accept or tolerate behaviour that is illegal?
I don't think so.
Underage marriage, legal or spiritual, is illegal.
Can individuals be free in an organization like the FLDS? Is this about organizational or individual freedoms?
Emily in NC
Emily, the crux ofg you comments above are summed up in the word ILLEGAL.
So that seems to be your definition of right from wrong.
Whereas i use the word moral or immoral.
There is a huge difference between illegal and immoral.
illegal is of man, imoral is against man and God.
I can see that marriage under 16 is illegal, but that doesnt make it wrong.
I cannot seee that a marriage culturely made and of the free will that a youngster has is immoral. Its just different to your present thinking.
Perhaps you could reasses your definition of right from wrong.
Would you rather continue with the free will we presently exercise.
We teach to our youth through our LEGAL media all manner of fornication and adultery. Its legal, but its immoral and its wrong.
Our U.S. divorce rate is 52%.
Did you get that 52%.
And you think its good to stuff up this community and make it like ours because its not legal.
God help us all, because weve just helped destroy some people who were trying to live some form of enlightened selflessness.
Comment on the 5.29 post
Question was asked:
'Can individuals be free in an organization like the FLDS? Is this about organizational or individual freedoms?'
Because it is a totally religious way of life, just like many others, and it pretends to be nothing less, and its precepts include the surrender of will, (by ones free will) then they do noit get to do what ever they like when ever they like, and they are well counselled to keep themselves from the stains on worldliness.
Total freedom has poisioned our society. just like democracy.
We dont want freedom as paramount, we want freedom limited by basic moral common law, which starts with the Ten commandments.
Just like we dont want democracy, because it becomes a popularity contest that is won by the majority view.
And since when was the majority view wise.
Wisdom is a result of years of experience generally, not of youth,
So democracy in an expanding population ensures that the unwise vote for popularity and ideolgy unfounded in suifficient sustainable principles, and so we have the present United states.
need I say more.
Take the vote off everyone under 35who have not families and youd elect much better represetatives. then abolish our party systems and have true local representation, then we might get back to being the REPUBLIC our forebears fought for.
The word republic means 'NATION FOR THE COMMONWEALTH OF ITS PEOPLE.
Mensa,
You have obviously missed my earlier comments, at least figuratively, if not also literally.
This incident is much bigger than the FLDS. This is about civil liberties, and the action of the State of Texas in this matter is setting a dangerous legal precedent.
Don't be so eager to let your prejudice against a certain group (valid or invalid) fuel the justification for military action, especially against U.S. citizens. It was prejudice towards the Jewish which lead to the Holocaust. Do you really want those kinds of witch hunts occurring in the United States?
Rock on, Emily! I love your posts.
Who is John Galt?
Anon 7:46
We were never intended to be a repulic any more than a democracy. Democracies degenerate to mob rule; republics degenerate to dictatorships. It was somewhere between the two where the founding fathers intended us to be. Hence our democratic elections for most officials but the electoral college for presidential elections. The system can only work when the people are actively involved. When crisis like the present come about many people want to get on the stump and declare our laws as trampling the rights of the people. It sounds awful hollow when the same individuals are not doing anything to actively change those laws. Where was the outrage and condemnation when the law was passed? This case will test the law on marriage that was passed several years ago. This is the way the system is designed to work. The legistlature passed the law, the executive passed it, now the judicial will get its turn to decide. It is a little late in the game to start condemning it now, although late is better than never.
Along these same lines of thought I would like to know where was the outrage and sympathy when these mothers and stepfathers denied the childrens biological fathers the right to their children not so long ago. Not all the parents and children were involved but some were and the parents that weren't didn't stand up for those rights any more than those who were. The wheels of justice turn slowly but they do turn. What we give out will return to us. Perhaps if nothing else comes of this they will learn this one lesson because among this utopian society of 'humble people' there are some the of meanest tyrants that walked the earth. Most of the YFZ are merely victims of the duplicity of those tyrants.
What is legal is not always what is moral and visa-versa. All you need to do is look back a few years to the 40's & 50's when it was illegal for a black person to to use a facility designated as "white". We as a society learned this was not acceptable thanks to people who were willing to risk their lives to educate us and worked to change the laws bringing them more in line with our moral conscience.
Polygamy is illegal. So is sodomy but the official stand of the government (representing society) about homosexuals is that those laws are not enforced. This action is based on the view that it's nobody's business who somebody is intimate with as long as those involved are consenting adults.
The FLDS children (the boys who were not in imminent danger of being married off as teen brides) were taken due to the potential they would be taught to engage in illegal activity (polygamy). This really, REALLY made my blood boil. Homosexual couples are allowed to adopt children and raise them in a home where most certainly they will be taught that homosexuality is g-reat! Even if they were informed of sodomy laws it would not be in the context of obeying them. Texas needs to check their records to see if they've granted any adoptions to homosexual couples. If they have they must return every child they have in their custody because of the potential they may be taught to practice polygamy.
Emily
"The god and Jesus they worship is not of the Christian Bible. "
I'm LDS. The Jesus I've accepted as my personal Lord and Savior and worship is the one that was born to the virgin Mary, calmed the seas and walked on water, performed the miracle of the loaves and fishes, raised Lasareth from the dead, turned water into wine, was crucified and died on the cross at Calvary and was ressurected three days later.
What Jesus have you 'Christians' been talking about?
I shake my head every time I hear something like this. It's simply not true but continues to circulate. I even saw a childrens cartoon in the local religious book store that told this whopper complete with scary theatrical music in the background. How will "Christian" children be free to choose when they've been brainwashed like this?
My loving Jesus will be the only judge of who are Christians and who are not.
Thank you fttc 7:06. I agree 100% with your post. You also Emily.
I just don't know how anyone of you people who haven't lived inside this FLDS society, and been a part of the everyday life there, like I was, can sit there and defend these people when you actually have no idea how they operate. I saw it firsthand. I was there when Warren started ripping families apart. I met with him (Warren) the day he took my dad's family away from him, and he read me some phony, phsycotic "revelation," in which he accused my dad of aspiring to the leadership of the church.
I saw when Warren's dad married Rachel, Warren's sister, to my dad in 1995, and Wendell Nielsen was so jealous it wasn't even funny. Everyone knew Wendell wanted her, and guess who she is married to now. Yep, Wendell. You can see pics of her and my brothers and sisters with all of Wendell's family. Which just happens to be the first time I have seen them in five years.
I have seen and heard young girls get married, and come home crying to their mothers, and the mothers tell them that it is the Lord's will, and they must go back to the man who forced himself upon them. I SAW IT!!!! Don't you understand?!!! It broke my heart. That is one of the reasons I left.
I sat in Church and listened as Warren himself got up and told the people that the laws of this country are evil and corrupt, and as such didn't apply to him or the people. I heard him tell us to pray for certain people to die, and for the Lord to send his destructions down upon this evil world. I personally heard him tell me and my dad to go so far into debt that there was no way we could ever get out, because the end was coming, and we would never have to repay it. Now my dad's bankrupt, and I can barely keep my head above water.
Yes there are some good people out there, but I know that there are some of the worst people in the world out there too. The kind of people that will take advantage of young girls. The kind of people that will sit down there on their ranches, while all the little grunts out to the Short Creek, and wherever else they are, work their butts off just to send every drop of money they make to these bastard leaders. I was there. I did it myself. So don't tell me these people deserve our sympathy. They don't! Like FTTC said, "What goes around comes around." And I hope justice is served to the full extent of this GREAT countries laws!!!!!!
I believe that Texas struck down the law agains sodomy a few years ago.
I believe they took the boys because there were signs of neglect and physical abuse.
It has to do with abuse of children, not polygamy.
So, biologically a woman is ready to give birth when she has her period, correct? In america, we say a 13/14 year old girl/woman is too young for marriage. Why? Because our lives are very complicated now, much more than in 3rd world countries where girls are getting married at that age (and that's considered normal). Even a hundred years ago, this was being done. Polygamy exists in many countries as well. Why are we against it? Somewhere in the bible it says, it's better for a man to marry one woman, i forgot where. But I also believe it notes some others having more than one wife. Where those others Jews or Christians? I don't remember. I don't like seeing older men abuse this religion by snapping up the young beautiful woman as they have at other times. Were they doing that here? Are these woman raised to be mothers, 1st and 2nd wives, good partners and good christians? If so...what's wrong with that? That's better than many modern woman. If the men are honorable I think this can work. If not then fix it. Now for the kids... I think it's terrible to walk into anyones life and turn it upside down within 24hours. Unless the kids were being sexually abused (I don't mean married at 14) and physically abused (beat up, smacked around, burned, etc), I'm not so sure any government should take a bunch of kids and put them into a system that's also broken. I'd like to take a look at the kids of all those specialists and have a look at them! I bet you'll find quite a few have their own set of problems.
I have been sitting back for a few days and quietly reading this blog without saying anything, to take in everything being said. Not only on the blog, but in the media, on the internet, etc. I've listened, read, and watched the interviews, the video clips, the pictures from both sides and would like to add my two bits.
First, for all those people that would like to stand up for the religious "right", the Christians, Catholics, etc, who wish to speak for the majority...please don't. You who wish to pluck the splinter out of the eye of your neighbor, should look for the plank in you own. Love thy neighbor? How many times should we forgive? 7 x 70. Is it any wonder that these people would want to isolate themselves from the rest of the world and keep their children sheltered from such hypocrites? Judge not, lest ye be judged. I know of only one that was sinless and it is not any of us, so let's not go casting stones in our glass houses.
Secondly, when the FLDS bought the land and started to move to Texas, the legal age for marriage with the parents consent was 14. That's right people, the law didn't change until 2005, to 16. So all these, young women, who may or may not have had children or be pregnant, and who may or may not be married, as this is all still being investigated(again, these things are ALLEGED and not PROVEN), may have done so legally. Plus, remember that a law is not retro-active, therefore if they were married before the law changed, even if they were 14, it was still legal. And, may I remind you that our lifespans have only changed from 40 to 80 in about the last 100 years, so if this was 1908 instead of 2008, we would all be getting married at around 15. I know my grandmother was considered an old maid when she married at 18. Her parents were praising the lord that a man had found her homely enough to take her for a wife.
Third, for all you feminists out there...you can't have it both ways. Either women have the right to chose how they live their lives or they don't. Now, how they chose to live their lives also depends on how they were raised. We are raised that we have to be as competetive and hardcore as any man, if not more so. Keep you emotions in check, your nose to the grindstone, and work, work, work. Education is the key and if you have time for a family once you have reached your business goal and are financially ready, then go ahead. They are raised, that family comes first. Get up and help get your brothers and sisters ready, then go help with breakfast, by setting the table or actually cooking with your mother. Make a lunch for your father to take to the factory or field. There is nothing wrong with wanting to be a homemaker and mother. And if everyone comes back with the marrying the 50 yr old thing, look at the men that have been interviewing, they are not 50, plus, how many women go for the father figure, it's comforting, it's familiar, and there are women that do it everyday that marry men 20-30 years older than themselves, sometimes it's for money and sometimes it's for security, but it is their choice.
Who will be next? The Amish? The Mennonites? They do not use modern conveniences, only require schooling until the 8th grade, spank their children. What about average small town America? Go to any farming town and kids join their parents in the field from a young age or help cook and clean the house and care for their siblings. Preparing them to be a farmer's wife for the next generation. Will we begin to remove the children from all the people we do not accept or understand? Why would anyone want to work from dawn to dusk in the dirt for money that doesn't cover the bills?
Something I did wish to pass along however and that is thank you, Wife #2 for having the strength to come forward and share your beliefs of your plural family and the love you feel within it. I hope that it brought some people some understanding or at least made them stop and think for just a moment.
To the FLDS, if any are readin this blog, I know that you work with the authorities here in Arizona to root out abuse within your communities. I hope that your children are returned to you soon and that in the meantime you have the comfort, strength, and perserverence to come through this trial.
Well said 7.45
Its another crusade to save the barbarians by the sword.
Except this time the all mighty sanctimonious self-righteous are 'saving the children.'
1stwife,
There are laws that if a 14 year old had gotten married and had parents written and legal permission, the man she married must not be 3 years older than her.
I know you thought your post was enlightening and brilliant, but it wasn't.
"Under Texas law, children under the age of 17 generally cannot consent to sex with an adult. A girl can get married with parental permission at 16, but none of these girls is believed to have a legal marriage under state law."
I believe that the FLDS is having their rights violated. The police had an informant for over 4 years that supposedly gave them good information on the FLDS church but nothing ever came of it. Then there is a fake phone call and it takes the police two days to act on it. If CPS and the state can take away children just on the bases of a fake phone call and derogatory remarks about the church, then CPS and Texas should get their heads examined. Are people forgetting? Nothing has been proven yet. This is Texas and CPS’s claims and allegations not factual evidence. If you agree with the way the CPS and Texas law enforcement handled this then I hope someone files a false report against you and you have your children taken away. Don’t come crying to me when that happens because I have no sympathy for you. CPS has been doing such a botched job on this it is a wonder that their still around. CPS has already admitted numerous times that they do not know how old the children are. It is funny how now the numbers of the keep rising but no new kids have been taken from the compound. Did they miraculously find about 50 more kids in their custody? CPS is guessing.
"....If you agree with the way the CPS and Texas law enforcement handled this then I hope someone files a false report against you and you have your children taken away...." -- Anom 6:23
I'm hoping you're not one of the FLDS parents from YFZ
because if you are and this is way you think
you're going to have a much tougher time getting your kids back
keep sweet texas
stg
you too anom
-31 either have children or are pregnant-
31 of these children out of 53 girls were pregnant or had kids? WTF is wrong with you people?
I hope the state of texas rips your community apart!
I suppose Rod Parker is just doing his job but when the attorneys start using the media to sway public oppinion it looks like the facts must be against the client. He needs to inform his clients they really can't have it both ways. He is complaining about the girls over 18 being held as children. They wouldn't admit to being under 18 until it looked like they would lose contact with the children. Not that I blame the mothers especially. I would expect them to do what they could to stay together. It was interesting to me that as soon as the separation was imminent the girls under 18 suddenly increased by 21 girls. CPS has changed the stats several times but what else can they do when the info coming from the FLDS changes as well? How can the siblings be kept together if they won't tell who the siblings are? Or did they expect to all stay together by using the communal living condition of all being siblings? DNA data is supposed to sort that out but by last report I saw will not be availble for some weeks yet.
I think that the discussion about underage sex is now over. 31 of 53 girls, ages 14-17, have kids or are pregnant? How can you defend them after this news?
I think its pretty clear that these people are not innocent. Their kids were in danger on the ranch. What they are doing is wrong and illegal.
I'm LDS, therefore Freedom of Religion is very important to me. The problem is that the children in this FLDS ranch DO NOT have freedom of religion! They are not permitted to leave and attend public schools, go to atheltic events or even a grocery store outside of the ranch, where they might experience something different. Everything is kept in house, so they don't have any other choice! In fact, if you try to leave, they bring you right back and punishments are inflicted.
The worst part is obviously when girls are married and become pregnant while still minors! Their "Freedom" is taken away at that point, if they ever really had freedom in the first place! I mean, can you protest and cite Freedom of Anything, if you have been FORCED to live in a compound your whole life????
This is all very heartbreaking, but I'm glad it's happening. This is modern day slavery and it's time for it to end.
Barry from Houston, TX
I don't believe in force.
I don't believe in going against the law.
But people want to call these people evil and wicked and whatnot.
These people were born and raised in this group -- they didn't just join and start doing this 20 years ago.
Therefore, most of the parents, both mothers and fathers, are as much victims as the children. I'm sure they were molested, too.
I would suggest that those of us on the outside have a God-fearing heart and have mercy on these people. They really have no idea about anything outside of their faith.
These people are living what they believe to be the Law of God. In God's eyes a woman was of marriagable age when she was about 14. If that were not true, then He would not have chosen Mary to birth the Messiah -- Mary was around 14 years old.
Some of God's favorite people were polygynists -- Abraham, Isaac, Moses, King David...
I know that according to our society, what they have done is wrong. But, I'm saying, they're trying to do what they think is right by God. So, let's have a little sympathy for all of them. Those of us that try to live right all our lives are seeking to do the same thing.
As an adult I am shocked by the amount of teen girls that have had children or/are pregnant in the group -- but then again, I remember myself at 14/15/16 and you could NOT have told me I wasn't grown up. I looked it. I dated men who were 22, 23, 25 years old and shouldn't have been doing that, according to the law.
Now -- *I* can be honest about myself and who I was then and who I am now. Why all the pious holier than thou trains of thought? Why can you not be honest? You're not great; while you're bashing polygyny, you turn a blind eye when you see someone cheating on their spouse. You accept that boyfriend-girlfriend relationships (along with sex BEFORE marriage) is okay. Some of you have had same sex encounters.
Come on. I'm not the only person otu there with a sordid past. In God's eyes we're ALL worthy of being dammed to hell.
Just want some of you to be more honest and quit bashing these people so danged hard just because their beliefs, their desires and their lifestyles are not like yours. A sin is a sin in God's eyes.
And to show that I'm no hypocrite, I will include my screenname and a link to wherever, lol.
Shalom!
Why is the situation at the ranch any different from the Amish communities. No one is taking their kids away, thank God.
Everyone teaches their own children what they believe in. When my brother married a practising Catholic my parents were outaged because they do not approve of Catholicism. Then when the grandchildren were sent to Catholic school they were up in arms at what the grandchildren were being 'exposed' to. I asked, what are they supposed to teach their kids, your beliefs? Obviously they will teach them their own.
Is all teaching of religion to young children brainwashing?
Muslims practise polygamy. Who's taking their kids away?
Before anymore damage is done to these children I pray every day that they will be reunited with their loving mothers.
God bless them all.
"When they came for the communists,
I remained silent,
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out,
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came fore the jews,
I remained silent,
I was not a jew.
When they came for me,
There was no one left to speak out."
Who will they come for next?
"Who will they come for next?" 12:07
YOU!
If you think child molesation and rape are ok in the name of religion, then someone needs to come for you.
Don't do the crime if you can't do the time.
Further up this thread someone quoted part of the scripture...'it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle then a rich man to get to heaven.
A man and a woman died on the same day and were waiting at the gate of heaven, The gate keeper told them that only one whould pass through, he asked if each had their key. The Man said yes and started a list of his life accomplishments...Father I have 7 wives and 49 children, I own a prosperous business and give 10% to the church, which i attend every week, I employe many people ... he continued on and on untill he was exhausted.
When it was the womans turn to speak, the gatekeeper knew that she was a single woman with no husband or children, she made just enough to get by and she helped her neighbor who had less. When she spoke she simply said, "yes Father, I believe that you sent your son Jesus to die on the cross for all including me.
Jesus is the KEY!!!"
We all must become like innocent children and read for ourselves, truely read forgetting all the things we were led to believe before, and in Prayer read the Bible. I was 40 when I realized that the religion I grew up in was a creation of man and not GOD.
Comment on 1.23
Anyone who believes that a beleif in Jesus and that he died on a cross for their sins gets you into heaven is misled at best, wilfully ignorant at worst.
If a 'God' discounts the efforts to raise children to ennobling light and righteousness, but give eternal credance to a professed belief, then that 'God' in whom you believe is a liar and a figment of the devil.
Moses said the God he came to know was Justice, judgement and righteousness and so did Jesus Christ.
Jesus said, 'and when the son of man cometh he shall reward every man acording to his works.'
But you are right 1.23, about going and reading what Jesus really said for yourself, and that no man or woman who seeks a better salavtion should rely alone upon the testimoney of another, but upon the leading of the spirit which is of God.
while i'am not an expert on the do's and don'ts that get you into heaven but....
of all the reasons i've heard
bagging as many wives as you can?
has GOT to be the dumbest of all
keep sweet texas
stg
Magicians use a technique called "misdirection". Essentially, the magician distracts the audience with one aspect of his act while he or she performs the real trick right under the eyes of the audience.
That is what The State has effectively done here. They have distracted an audience of Citizens by pointing out all of the things about this group which the audience dislikes.
But it's misdirection, because what they are really doing is assaulting our freedom, and our liberties. And we are cheering them on, effectively misdirected by our own prejudices against the FLDS.
The FLDS wasn't assaulted. We were ALL assaulted.
I don't smack my child but my assumption is that you do, anon 5:49.
I'm thinking if you hit your children then CPS should take them away.
Could we please get one thing straight here? Aside from the outfits (and possibly the "accent chip" Warren installed), the FLDS are nothing like the Amish. I'm sure if they were allowed to blog, they'd tell you the same thing.
Another thing, any muslim who practices polygamy with an underaged girl or abuses his children in this country would get his/her children taken away as well...maybe faster.
Just because you haven't heard of it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Anyway, some of you posters were brainwashed into believing that we didn't really land on the moon....seriously.
Whats this about the CPS taking our children for smacking them now?
Some children are bettered by giving them a smack. Id rather use the rod (or switch) than spoil the child, and any CPS interference for such homely and Christian discipline is an act of war against my family.
We are no longer the united states of America, we are a divided multi-cultural corporation.
Don think I'll be over paying my taxes in future.
This is some of the most messed up stuff I have ever heard.
Darn it, George, you had me going there for a minute. After reading the first paragraph about magicians, I'm thinking you're talking about Warren and how he deals with the faithful. Then it turns out you're not. My bad.
freedom is about older men being allowed to impregnate little girls and call it religion.
this stuff and other abuse situations with other religions is why religion in america is on the decline. Many young people shun "religion."
Makes me sick to my stomach.
I cannot understand how these women can be SOOO brainwashed that they would give up their sons and let their daughters be raped. How can they get away from it being wrong in their own hearts and minds.
How can they get away from it being wrong in their own hearts and minds.
----------------------
there minds have been disabled and there hearts have been broken.
Anon 11:50--thanks for asking the question for which I'd like an answer--What is so compelling about the way these women live that it could override the maternal instict?
Most "outsider" moms would do ANYTHING to keep our children safe--regardless of our personal safety, of what our husband said, or even our personal salvation. The maternal instict is very strong.
Why does it appear it may be the minority in the FLDS culture?
This one is for 1stwife.
First off, Making the statement that the legal age of concent was 14 when the camp was built until 2005 should tell you that something is wrong with your community right there. If you have to move to states that have such a low marriage age so you all dont go to jail!
BUT with your community legal age really doenst come into play because you guys arent really married!
So you have 31 CHILDREN excuse me, single unwed mothers, running around pregant.
2nd most of us could care less how you choose to live your life as ADULTS. We do care that you have minor children having babies and being (not legally) but spirtualy married.
3rd. Your men know that this is morally wrong, otherwise your community would do the actual act of being legally married, NOT "spirtually married" (which isnt legal). You dont do it because you know that its wrong, and you dont want to draw attention to yourselves by having pregnant 13 year old's walking down the isle.
Kids that are 13- early 20s are not mature enough to know what they want out of life, and when they do figure it out its to late
And yes another point! Why are these children being raised with out knowing who there real mothers are?
The way that I see it is like this:
Your men throw out the younger generations of boys as they hit puberty late teens because they dont want competition from the younger girls wanting to be with boys there own age.
I mean really if your 12-16 your going to be attracted to boys that are 15-18 not 50 year old men (gags) I mean come on im 35 and it would take one hell of a man to make me want him if hes in his late 40s - 50s.
These men get you women pregant, have 3-6 kids but keep YOUR children spread out among the camp and even your own household that you have no real child to mother attatchement (not mother to her child), which means that when you are wanting to leave you cant because you'd have to leave your children! which is something that any real mother would never be able to do.
These places are nothing but glorified religous pedophile camps.
for someone that talks like shes pretty smart you really are pretty stupid.
Anon 8:29
"for someone that talks like shes pretty smart you really are pretty stupid."
Now is that really necessary? Can't you make your point without resorting to personal attacks? I view this as an opportunity to try to learn and get an insight into other viewpoints of the situation. I don't agree with everything that is posted by a long stretch. It is an education to see where other people are coming from.
"If you have to move to states that have such a low marriage age so you all dont go to jail!"
If it says something about THEIR community what does it say about the communities they're moving INTO? What's the difference? It's only sick if these people do it? After all the good Christian citizens and government of Texas didn't seem to have a problem with a fourteen year old getting married and having babies prior to the FLDS moving to town. NOW it's just so horrible and those poor, poor girls!!!
Where was the outcry from the people of Texas just a couple of years before this when your state CONDONED the marrying off of 14 year old girls? I guess it was okay as long as it was between good ol' boys and the little tramps from the trailer park.
If you want to direct your righteous indignation somewhere start with your own town, your own neighborhood, etc. Glass houses and all that.
I don't agree with what is going on but the level of hypocrisy from the people slamming this group is just as sickening if you ask me.
If the mothers and or children won't testify against the fathers, won't the State of Texas run into the same problem as UT and AZ?
The problem I'm referring to is they can't prove the abuse occurred in their State.
anon 9:43,
There were and are many laws on the books that are antiquated. The legal age of marriage being 14 just happened to be one of them.
NOBODY marries at 14 (or even 16) around here because it's widely recognized that 14 year olds need to finish their educations and they need to finish their childhoods before having adult responsibilities shoved on them. Do 14 year olds get pregnant? Yes, that happens and has for years. Usually it doesn't involve someone 10-40 years older that they didn't chose. Also getting pregnant at 14 isn't considered ideal no matter who it's with.
Good for Texas for updating their books, although it took too long.
dreamygirl who was dating men over 21 when she was 16 and under - it wasn't your job to stay out of those relationships. As a friend or a parent or a pastor or teacher, I could wish all 14 year olds were smarter or less emotionally needy than to turn to predatory older men, but legally it's not their responsibility.
It was the job of those GROWN MEN to keep their paws off underage girls. Because you're right, they think they're adults - but the rest of us know they are not.
And it is even more so the job of a man who is 40, 50, 60 - have you looked at the "Bishop's Family Record" pages? These men knew the law. They are supposed to be sober, responsible, adult men. Lots of them had wives near their own age. They have kids of their own. They should know the difference between women and little girls.
They definitely knew the law, and they knew the pressure being put on those girls. They chose something else - status, or lust, or perhaps even their religious beliefs (though it seems like God would be okay with you waiting two years to hit the bare legal minimum) over the safety and right to an unemcumbered future of those girls.
That is a mighty tall wall around the temple at YFZ, btw. I see it in all the photos. Big, tall, solid wall. More of a wall than the state women's prison here has, even.
some legal counsel wifey.
You said that the legal age of marriage being updated was good and necessary because it was 'antiquated.'
Have you failed to realize that this 'legal age' that we set is the bar at which we begin to call our sons and men who mess with such a girl as a criminal and rapist.
Yet that isnt necesarily thge case, sometiomes there just foolish men and women, but certyainly not crimoinals or abusers.
Some young girls chase sex and you just cant stop them, but lets not call such men and women criminal.
Yes its generally good advice to avoid marriage and sex before age 16, but its not good to make it a crime is it.
That just buries more problems than it helps.
I do agree that teen boys and girls engaged in sex but the girls are not having spiritual marriages with men the are old enough to be their fathers and grandfathers and sometimes are.
You have to admit that most girls having sex are doing it with someone around their own age not with their cousins, uncles, stepfathers and grandfathers, right?
And these young girls in our society are not raised to believe incest with your relative is a normal way of life.
The women in our society almost always have a choice about when and with whom they engage in sex. This is not the same senerio for the girls in the FLDS.
anon 1:08
Most young girls in Texas who get pregnant do so by "fooling around" with their boyfriends, not by being forced into a marriage with a man 30 years older than them. Do you honestly not see the difference?
Yes I do see the difference.
In the instance you speak of the girls generaly fools about by her own choice with a man of her choice, so also does the man, and he isnt a lot older, hes around about her age give or take a few years.
But its not rape, if they both want it or as you say, are just fooling about.
But is it rape for an older man to 'marry' or (to take responsibility) for a 14 year old.
No it isnt and I would speak against such and even prosecute. But is it rape? Is it criminal? Is it abuse? If or when such cases are found to have occured, interview both man and woman and ask them WHY? I would like to know how many and what reasoning was behind each indiviual case.
Do you see my reasoning< i wish to treat them like indioviduals, not all lumped together as a strange people as if all the women are oppressed, all the children abused and all the men twisted.
How often does it happen? I havent seen any figures yet.
I dont mind twenty years age difference, if both are agreed. One of my great aunts married so, (nowhere near FLDS) and she spoke of a very happy marriage, so its individual circumstances I am interested to hear of, not hearsay.
That is what I am waiting for.
Until I see figures, and hear their side of the stories I will not be able to accept the blanket removal of all their children.
Investigate by all means, give them a dam good shake up, teach them we dont agree with some of their thinking, but take all the children, No that is not yet justified to me, and a few 14-18 year old marriages dont justify taking 460 children do they.
The above poster refers to "a few 14-18 year old marriages". Keep in mind, most of these relationships were not legal marriages. You can call them "spiritual marriages" or whatever fancy name you want, but we're talking about 14-18 year olds being led to enter into sexual relations with married men. That is pretty ugly.
I am just gobmacked by the so-called 'reasoning' of the people who post here. Have you received no schooling at all? Are you not familiar with the notion of free thought, or critical thinking?
I can't be bothered to argue with you - what is the point in banging my head against a rock ? - but I would like to ask you this: why is it, that in virtually every religion in the world, it is ALWAYS women who are subservient, suppressed and dominated? Why is it ALWAYS the woman who is veiled from head to toe, in Afghanistan, in Iraq, and even on the streets of London? Why is it ALWAYS the woman who is dressed in plain, pastel, prairie dress, in Colorado City? Why is it ALWAYS the woman who is prevented from becoming a priest/pastor/iman/rabbi/ minister/elder/leader in most religions of the world? Why is it that only women have ever been persecuted and burned as witches over the centuries?
It's because you, dear sister, are regarded as a second-class citizen of the world.
anon 4:24,
First of all, the word consent implies that there is a choice - in other words, you can agree or disagree. These women who are "consenting" are most likely agreeing to a fate that they know is inevitable.
According to Warren Jeffs' doctorine, without compliance (interchangable with consent in this culture) women are damned to a life of servanthood or blood attonement (death). You won't hear from these women because they're afraid and intimidated - emotions often experienced by rape victims. Sex is for procreation only and is considered unclean if it is connected with emotion.
Secondly, are you trying to tell me that these 14-18 year olds would choose to be one of the many wives of a guy old enough to be her father or grandfather? Heck, he might even be her stepfather or uncle. How would this arrangement be possible without manipulation and intimidation?
Listen, from the start of their lives, their choices are removed. One way this is achieved is by secluding them from the outside world. They are taught to fear the outside world and told that it (and those in it) are evil and won't be going to the celestial kingdom with them. This is how they are made to endure the hell on earth they face. Something tells me you already know this, though.
Their lack of education exacerbates this fear. They are intimidated by what they don't know and excuse it away as lacking "eternal significance".
When a dictator is attempting to take control of a group of people, one of the first actions taken is the removal of books with all dissenting opinions. This is what has happened here as well. The "acceptable books" that remain have entire chapters cut out.
ps: anon 1:08am, get some sleep...I can't make any sense of your entry.
Nature intends and designs that the male shall govern and take care of the female, and that the male shall have the capacity to take care of more than one female.
It isnt second class, its simply the nature of things. Its what makes a man and a woman happy.
the notion of equality is an ideaolgy, not a fact. There are no two people equal.
True and proper Religion is about doing and getting it right.
exactly what is ugly about a 17 year old young lady marrying a 28 year old marrued man.
If they both chose it, if they both want it, if they both belive in it, I cant yet see the ugliness.
Actually its not just the women who were burned, Many good men were to, though I dont know if the men were called witches. I think heritics was the excuse given then by the dominant world corporation. (catholicism)
Incidently, if the same laws were applied to the Catholic church we should be seizeing communities of their children too, with all those nancy boy priests running about.
I hear they allow such priests now, provided their not 'practicing' homosexuals.'
anon 7:40,
FYI: Catholic families don't live in gated compounds - this changes the protocol.
anon 9:19,
Private property is private property. Being in a gated compound does not give the government any more rights to invade your property than someone who ISN'T in a gated compound.
In fact, given that it was a gated compound, the authorities could have much more easily detained the people within the compound and taken more time to carefully investigate every family.
I don't know what Texas is trying to prove here. Almost a month later and they can't even decide whether or not any law has been broken. No arrests, No charges. I think it is about time for the State of Texas to "Put up or Shutup" This isn't Texas Hold'um show your cards.
Texas will spare no expense to take care that these children are safe and free from abuse.
and on a side note, I was wondering how these folks can "bleed the beast." Without social security cards, you cannot have your children on welfare.
Do these YFZ people have social security cards? Are they and their hundreds of children on welfare as they are unwed mothers in the eyes of the law? How can this happen without a social security number?
Does anyone have any information on the actual number of women and children at "the ranch" who recieve federal assistance?
George,
Wall or no wall, everyone who lives within the boundaries of the United States of America is equally accountable to the law.
Are you suggesting that if Texas had held them all as prisoners on the compound and questioned each and every last one until they got to the bottom of this sticky mess, it would have gone over better? Or were you thinking that they'd all just stick around and wait their turn to have the cuffs slapped on?
If these men are guilty of no wrong, then where are they? Their behavior betrays any innocence we might want to grant within our opinions.
Anon 10:38,
Yes, everyone is held accountable to the law... and should be held accordingly.... INCLUDING lawmakers, CPS officials, police, detectives, lawyers, and judges.
Believing you have probable cause without actually having probable cause does not empower the government to forcibly invade a community.
Don't be so fueled by your own dislike of this community that you illegally empower the government to infringe upon the liberties of the rest of us.
When you single out a community like this, and take military action against non-violent civilians, it's simple genocide.
You may not be aware of this, but there are many more crimes, worse crimes, by individuals OUTSIDE of this compound... crimes that go unpunished. Has anyone heard the recent story about the father and daughter who were reunited in adulthood, fell in love, married, had one child who was born with birth defects, subsequently died, and was then "replaced" by this couple, who is now once again expecting? Things like this happen all of the time. Why aren't individuals openly and publicly committing abominable acts being punished and brought to justice?
It's because the government isn't interested in punishing real crime. They are interested in persecution and in creating a dependent welfare state.
Remove yourself from your own prejudices and look at the facts of the entire situation from a neutral standpoint. The real truth is staring you right in the face.
George,
Why are you accusing me of having predjudice? First of all, you don't know me well enough to site my predjudice. Secondly, I'm just stating the obvious.
Unless you're a member, you don't know what goes on behind our walls.
Why are you so quick to assume that everything is above ground?
I don't want the government to regulate every aspect of my life, but I do my best to maintain the law. That's all anyone is asking of the FLDS.
An honest question begs a straightforward answer from you, George: if there are women and children in our group (who because of their cultural constrictions have been unable to reach out for help) that are being abused, would you be against the state stepping in to provide them with shelter and relief?
just curious,
anon 3:29
Any definition of freedom needs to include the right to be free of sexual assault, whether a person is a minor or an adult. Minors cannot consent to sexual relations -- and there's good reason for that. They are not emotionally or intellectually ready to make such a decision. There were no underage "marriages" at the Texas compound. Marriage by definition is a union that is recognized by the state. I'm certain there are no marriage certificates for those little pregnant girls who were forced into the temple bed. It seems to me there was underage raping and sexual coercion going on and THAT'S what, rightly, instigated the raid. I have no issues with polygamy amongst consenting, informed, educated adults. However, requiring children to enter into those relationships is criminal abuse. It's not an issue of religious freedom, it's an issue of child molestation.
OK, here are my two cents on the whole idea of the FLDS.
Polygamy - is illegal! Polygamous marriages are not sanctioned by Christian religions and are immoral! There is nothing moral about a man fornicating with more than one woman, and in fact that is a disgusting practice that heralds back to Neanderthal days when humans were contending with Saber-Toothed Tigers and survival was dependent on siring as many humans as possible. Most human beings have moved beyond Neanderthal times.
Incest is the on of he most vile, disgusting practices there is, and forced incest is an abomination. Incest and forced incest are not 'religious practices' they are psychoses and neuroses that should be treated with heavy medication, in-patient psychiatric treatment, and incarceration. What would posess a parent to marry off their child to an immeiate blood relation other than severe mental illness or a plain evil spirit! Absolutely disgusting!
Pedophelia is illegal, and is not a 'religious practice' other than in cults like the FLDS, that know what they are doing is illegal. The entire FLDS cult (adults) should be incarcerated for life as Level 3 sex offenders for actively participating in, or aiding and abetting in the practices of pedophelia that the FLDS has institutionalized.
These practices are a religious abomination and illegal through and through. While being brought up in, or brainwashed to participate in these vile activities is an excuse, every adult that has participated in these activities knows that what they're doing is wrong. They will have to answer to God for this, and it's long past time that the law held the accountable for their flagant violation of the law and corruption of innocent children.
This is america seems are no longer to be freedom? we feel like "communist" runs by the government system to everybody within the United states that we are not able to be freedom. For example we follow the laws, if we dont then we will be end up in jail? many things but how come Amish people dont take goverment's laws. I quess the government are scary of Amish people are powerful for over 300 years this country. Why did they allow Amish people to do their own ways that we tried do our own way but government are not allow to do for ourselves?
WELL WHAT IS FREEDOM IS IT FREEDOM TO SAY ITS OK FOR UNDERAGE MARRIAGE
WHAT IS FREE ABOUT THAT I MEAN COME ON YEA!EVERYBODY HAS RITES BUT WHAT ABOUT THE FREEDOM OF THOSE KIDS WERE'S THERE FREEDOM...
I read a lot here today, and it is sad.
1. First off the Phone call was about a husband and wife having a fight.
This has nothing to do with 437 children being taken at Gun point from many mothers and fathers.
This was a terrorist act committed by a supposed government entity.
Our Laws have rules that protect the innocent from undue harm.
These Laws and Rights where in fact violated.
2. In Maine and other states, your 11 year old Daughter may go to the school nurse and get Birth control with out a parent being informed.
3. It has been put out that Warren did in fact get convicted of forcing a 14 year old to marry one of his own family. No where have i seen a FLDS member stand up and defend his actions. This was no more then a person that got in power abusing it, same thing as the CPS and Police did.
4. FLDS is in fact not a renege Sect as has been put forth, it is the New Mormon Churches that quit there long standing beliefs, and most still practice it in hiding, because of FEAR.
5. They CPS in this case in fact decided several Women over 18 where minors and took away there right to freedom because they just looked like minors to them. Let this be your age of daughter be imprisoned just because some one thought she looked younger, then you will want to complain but it will be to late then,
6. As far as age of marriage well what would you want, if you really love your kid. Have a kid with unknown father or same age father that cant even support themselves let alone a child. and note Maine above it is full well known that young girls are having babies every where.
7. In fact to date 12-20-2008 no charges have appeared about minors being married or forced to marry. And you can be sure the CPS would shout them out if they could just to justify there illegal acts
8. There in fact has come out nothing to support the traumatizing of 100's of children and causing permanent harm to them with a terrorist act of tearing them out of there Mothers and Fathers arms at gun Point.
9. There is also international treaty Laws too that protect parental rights, These also where broken by CPS and others, and many children where hurt by ones that in fact are supposed to enforce those laws.
10. And it wasn't to long ago in all of the USA if a girl was 14 and not married she was considered a old maid and close to being marriageable. "Watch some Beverly Hillbillies, and see Elle Mae or some Andy Taylor"
No I am Not a FLDS member my grandparents where Mormon, though and i never in anyway seen a child forced to get married or have kids, and all i have meet where in fact happy.
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