OK, The FLDS have had a chance to answer a few questions. Now here is some advice (whether you want it or not). Non-FLDS please answer the following and any you wish to add.
What would you do differently if you were in the shoes of the FLDS and trying to get your kids back?
70 comments:
come clean, the first ones who do will have the most leverage. Trust God not Man. Jesus is Faithful.
I love what Kimberly said, trying to use religion to supposedly bolster her point. Sorry but using religion doesn't work for me because I have studied many different religions and some people disagree with that "Jesus is faithful" statement because they believe Jesus to be a polygamist. Anyways, I would have fought for my children in court like the FLDS church members did. The court system isn't perfect but it tends to have a way of working itself out. I am glad that the FLDS members didn't give up or roll over for CPS. I am sure that the parents are still holding their breaths until their children are with them. Who knows how long CPS will attempt to keep them???
Work with your caseworkers and answer questions honestly... If they ask something that you don't want to answer it is better to just say that answering that question makes you uncomfortable than to give an evasive answer... The courts have not directed CPS to return the children. They have directed CPS to document why they feel it necessary to keep them. It could still be a very long process.
Angel
Show some real emotion, get mad throw a hissy fit, whine, scream, but then don't remember that your supposed to keep sweet.
Denounce your Profit! (from what I see he is Bi-polar.)
As for religion...clearly say the words 'get thou behind me Satan'.
Once the system takes your kids, the only things you CAN do is go through the motions of whatever CPS says and hire a lawyer to speak for you so that they don't twist your words.
It's not fair, it's not right, but it's exactly how it is.
If you throw a fit, then they say you're mentally unstable... if you keep your composure in public, they say you don't care about your children. They have TOO much power and not enough training and supervision or authority to answer to.
Warrenites (I hate that term) will never see what we print as they are not allowed on the computer.
"Warrenites (I hate that term) will never see what we print as they are not allowed on the computer."
Yet another false accusation. You'd be mighty surprised what we know, have read, and seen.
Ask for the help of average Americans. You will be
surprised at the tens of thousands who hate what
happened to you. Open the compound for visitors,
maybe a restaurant with healthy food served. Get
registered to vote in your county. Consider a
mandate that no underage marriages will take
place in your community. Find a college that would
welcome FLDS kids.
If i was FLDS leadership I would immediately release this statement:
We the FLDS leadership do hereby publicly declare our beliefs and intentions:
(insert beliefs here)
As such, we find ourselves in direct oppostion to the laws of the land (in regards to plural marriage). We have in the past had a practice of marrying women that weren't of LEGAL age in certain circumstances. We hereby state that this practice has stopped and has been stopped for (insert time). We do find ourselves in an bad position where we are forced to break the antipolygamy laws. We hold as a tenant of our faith to uphold all laws and will further endeaver to do just that. We believe that God played a major part in forming this Republic and will uphold all laws that don't infringe on our religion. So underage (legal age for marriage varies by state) marriage has stopped.
Something like that.... flame away brothern!
Muscogean,
We realize there are lots of good people who have our best interests at heart. I have family and close friends involved in this raid, and I wish I could personally thank every person who has rendered us any support; whether it be prayers, donations, a kind word, or anything else. I've always felt that there were a lot of good, kind-hearted, honest people out there, and this incident has shown that. I don't know if you saw the report or not, but Willie Jessop did go and get 600 voter registration cards. :) The thing is, we really like to just be left alone, but if needed, we will take action to protect our liberties. We are asking for help of the public, which is why we have the captivefldschildren.org website.
As kind as many people have been, it's quite obvious that we do have enemies that are determined to completely destroy us. Do you really think they care about our children? Our children were happy, well-fed, clothed, and loved. Now, they are withdrawn, sick, sad, and lonely. What a way of "protecting" them!
As for the statement posted by the previous poster, I could pretty well agree with something like that. Our religion has never taught that an underage marriage is mandatory. Yes, girls under 18 have been married, just as in mainstream America, but it's not often, it's not forced, and it's not a religious belief. It's just something that happens every now and again.
The court system will insist on the children receiving a quality education... emphasis on the word 'quality.'
During a Larry King interview, a woman claimed the compound had a 'wonderful' school - until King asked if they had certified teachers. After a lengthy silence and a very confused look, the woman lamely ended with, 'well, they're home-schooled.'
The interview continued with a man stating that polygamy is more widely-practiced than monogamy. 'It is?" King asked. The man then gave examples of (1)The Middle East: Aside from this being a poor choice to prove your point in today's political environment - it is also wrong. It's illegal in Turkey, Albania, Tunisia, and most of the former USSR republics, which make-up a huge chunk of the Middle East. Other Islam countries do allow it on a limited basis. Not only does this NOT constitute widespread acceptance; but, if that is your argument, most Americans would happily suggest that you go and live there. (2) China: Polygamy has not been legal, nor accepted in any form, since the revolution and the communist government frowns on those who do not follow rules.
Was the many lying? Absolutely not. He believed what he was saying. Why shouldn't he? The man has an 8th grade education, taught to him by someone with an 8th grade education (and back for several generations).
One step toward making the state of Texas, Judges, CPS, and the American public more accepting of your choices would be to have real, certified teachers in your 'school,' who teach facts, not fiction.
Actually, in the state of Texas the rights of a parent to homeschool are pretty well defined... there are no set curriculum requirements and no testing requirements and no requirements for teachers to be certified. It is the responsibility of the parent to provide the local school district with whatever documentation they request regarding curriculum elements and sample assignments.
Certified teachers are not even required in the public schools. Most public schools try to have certified teachers, but due to the shortage, many public schools have teachers working with "emergency credentials"... Private schools, charter schools and home schools are not required to have certified teachers.
Home school parents should keep a portfolio of their child's written work and documentation of their lesson plans and a written curriculum is a nice touch. Those items should satisfy any inquiry from the local school district. Religious instruction is acceptable in private, charter, and home schools and there are a number of Bible based curicula on the market that are used by many private and home schools... I do not believe that CPS will even attempt to require that the children attend public school... The rights of parents to home school are taken very seriously by the courts in Texas...
CPS can request academic testing to establish the efficacy of the schooling the children are receiving.
Angel
FLDS Guy..
You are very right....there are alot of good people in the world...more so that not.
Anonymous said...
t's illegal in Turkey, Albania, Tunisia, and most of the former USSR republics, which make-up a huge chunk of the Middle East. Other Islam countries do allow it on a limited basis. Not only does this NOT constitute widespread acceptance; but, if that is your argument, most Americans would happily suggest that you go and live there. (2) China: Polygamy has not been legal, nor accepted in any form, since the revolution and the communist government frowns on those who do not follow rules.
Islam has very strict rules regarding polygamy.
A man cannot marry two sisters or mother....
Right FLDS Guy?
keep it in your pants till the girls are 18.
FLDS Guy, You have been great to tell us your views, and I appreciate that. This blog is to say what the FLDS could do better. You said: "Yes, girls under 18 have been married, just as in mainstream America, but it's not often, it's not forced, and it's not a religious belief. It's just something that happens every now and again."
Advice time:
1. Stop trying to compare themselves to mainstream
America. I live in mainstream America. TEENS DO NOT MARRY ADULTS IN MAINSTREAM AMERICA! If an adult man who has sexual relations with a minor, consensual or not, it is illegal, they are CHILD MOLESTERS and put away in jail. There are certain circumstances that it is allowed, and that is what the laws are for. As a polygamist, you CANNOT legally marry a minor, unless it is your first marriage, with consent of the minors parents, and it is a lawful and legal marriage in the eyes of the law. 'Spiritual' marriages are NOT recognized by the law.
2. I cannot even believe that you are recognizing that you know people at YFZ and that you know of teen marriages. If there is one underage marriage, that is one too many. If someone, like yourself knows about it, then action needs to be taken to stop it.
3. Get off the "now and again". See number 2. GET THOSE MEN IN JAIL. PERIOD.
4. Get off the 'forced' issue. Force has NOTHING to do with it. The women need to know that even if the minor agrees to have sex, the adult is still breaking the law!
"Stop trying to compare themselves to mainstream
America. I live in mainstream America. TEENS DO NOT MARRY ADULTS IN MAINSTREAM AMERICA!"
The only reason I use mainstream America as any sort of "comparison" is that it's all I know of that "outsiders" understand. What I'm trying to say is, if you're trying to clean us up to your "moral" standards, clean up your own backyard as well. It's very very hard to get people to understand us because our laws regarding morality are so much more strict that most people can't comprehend it. Why is it that it's OK to have children out of wedlock, but as soon as one of us wants to claim the woman as a wife (though we can't be definition of the law), we're labeled as immoral, filthy, lawbreakers? I have believed that bigamy especially (not sure about polygamy) was indicative of fraud -- trying to obtain to legal marriages without either wife knowing about the other. We're not trying to defraud one another here. I guess I shouldn't get too far off on this subject. I know there are also a lot of people who don't really care what we do as long as it's among adults, but I've seen a lot of people howling "POLYGINY!!! IT'S AGAINSST T3H LAWZZ OF R LANDZZS!!"
Here's a situation to ponder upon:
Let's say the polygamy issue finally gets before the Supreme Court. Let's then pretend that they say it should be legalized. Now, under these new laws, if a 16 year old girl has parental consent, and she and her husband get a polygamous marriage license, would there be any child molestation? The only thing different is the letter of the law. Do you really think she will be treated any better or worse because of the law? In some ways, I'm AGAINST legalized polygamy, because then it would make it much easier for real abusers to hide behind the law.
I don't personally know any people at YFZ who have married minors. I have a brother and sister and other relatives and friends there, but all the ones I'm aware of were married as adults. Several of them have one wife, and *gasp* a marriage license! Just like you, I don't know all the details of everyone's life, and I prefer to keep my nose out of other people's business. If you were to take me into court as a witness, I could only testify of knowing of 2 teen marriages. The first would be Elissa Wall. The second, I won't say who, but it doesn't matter really as her husband has died, and they may very well have had marital relationships when it would've been perfectly legal to do so. She was almost 17 when married.
I'll still claim religious persecution. :) The trouble is, they listened to the wrong source about our religious beliefs. Can't we all agree it was wrong to take ALL the children away?
As for the comments on schooling:
I don't know why the woman on Larry King didn't know that there are in fact some certified teachers among them. I'm sure not all of the teachers at their school are, but I know of a few men and women there who are certified teachers. They were some of my teachers in high school.
YFZ ranch claimed the children were home schooled but I recall the mention of a school building on the Ranch. Some states allow for homeschooling in groups so maybe that is why the woman was confussed.
The FLDS people need to take a long hard look at why they belong to this group. Saying I am a Polygamist because my father was is the dumbest excuss yet.
Carolyn Jessop claims to be 6th generation Polygamist, that is on her mothers side. Her Paternal Grandfather choose Polygamy when he was in his 30s after returning from WW2, where he served as a firefighter along side his Uncle Ray. Her Greatgrandfather was a respected Member in Alberta Parliment and had a Junior High School named for him in Cardston. His Father came over from England in the late 1800s. This Man is also Winston Blackmore's Grandfather.
Just for fun then...William came over from England, Married in Utah and moved with his wife and young son John to Alberta, where they had many more children including Ray. John married Emily and had many children the oldest of which was Harold...Harold and his Uncle Ray moved to Creston BC where Ray's sister Zina and her family already lived, each praticed polygamy, Harold then moved to Utah. Ray stayed in Bountiful where he had many children including Winston.
Ray was 'married to Zina's daughter, who left him when her then 15 year old daughter was given to the 50 old husband of Zina's and Rays Sister.
The 15 year old later married a highly respected Veteriarn, had 4 lovey children of which one is a Firefighter in Alberta.
fldz_guy said .."Can't we all agree it was wrong to take ALL the children away?"
I say ..... Can't we all agree it is wrong for a grown man to have sex or "consummate their marriage" with any underage child whether consensual or not!!!! So If you ask me (a mother) no its not wrong to take away any child or children from a place where men are allowed to do as they please with children. If the women (who are of age) want to stay in that situation then that is fine, but to let a grown man have his way with an innocent child is wrong. I don't care if men want 50 wives or if women want to be the thirty second wife of Joe blow the point is that GIRLS (not women) who should be in school, playing with their friend outside enjoying this "wonderful" life that is provided to them on these ranches should NOT be consummating their marriages at age 12 ,13, 14 etc...
And just to add something else.. stories about children getting married having sex with older men child labor and all that other sick stuff "MAINSTREAM AMERICA" hears about doesn't come from a hole in the ground. clearly there have been people who have lived through this.
"Can't we all agree it is wrong for a grown man to have sex or "consummate their marriage" with any underage child whether consensual or not!!!!"
Yes, I think we CAN agree that it's wrong! You people don't understand that in our society, the men absolutely CANNOT just take any girl or woman and "marry" her. It must be approved and appointed by the Prophet. I know you probably don't believe or understand it, but we really aren't here to gather wives to gratify our lustful desires.
Where do you get the idea that all these 12, 13, 14, year olds, etc. are all being married off and having sex with old men? CPS hasn't proven a single case of that yet. The very few girls who were pregnant under 18 were married to men quite close to their own age.
Now they claim that Uncle Warren "married" 12-14 year olds. I honestly don't believe so, and I can't wait for the results to come out in court of the truth of this. One of the girls he allegedly married was proven to still be a virgin. Now, try to tell me that submitting to that kind of an exam isn't abuse.
We're trying to enjoy this wonderful life just like you, but it seems that some people think that being held in a foster care facility with extreme restrictions is somehow better than the happy life they were living on the ranch.
" The very few girls who were pregnant under 18 were married to men quite close to their own age."
Your wrong, there in at least one case and that is of Merilyn Jeffs Keate... She is 18 and has a 18 month old son and is listed as Allen Keate's wife. Allen is 55.
Another thing you might want to explain to the peeps out here is that FLDS are only supposed to have sex to create a baby. So if the poor girl conceives on her first time she doesn't have to see the man again till the baby is weaned.
flds_guy....
Stop trying to convince us that underage marriages don't happen among the FLDS. On this blog, we aren't stupid. There are too many of us who know that this has occurred, and consumation does happen. Underage marriages didn't start with Warren.
Well said flds guy, and about right.
bout time you brethren stood up for yourselves.
Its dificult for us who know of your good to keep doing it from the outside.
keep it up and make sure your house in in order, else it gives us all a bad name.
FLDS man, why is Warren still being followed by the group? He admitted to not being a prophet and to lying about it when he was recorded in jail saying it. He is also in jail for helping along in the marriage of Elissa. What would the FLDS think was ok about this situation?
I don't understand? Also what excused did Warren give for being found in a RED car and his wife wearing jeans and a tshirt? And warren was in shorts? Isn't his body supposed to be covered too?
Whatever reason he gave, I can't believe there weren't any other clothes they could find that would be within the rules of the FLDS and not grab other people's attention.
"What would you do differently if you were in the shoes of the FLDS and trying to get your kids back?"
STOP claiming this is religious persecution.
Get educated about what constitutes abuse.
Take down all the photos of a convicted felon on my walls.
Stop defending a convicted felon as my leader.
Congratulations to the 38 women who got some good legal advice, that is a must.
FLDS, if I were you I would read this:
DNA search warrant for Warren Jeffs
Especially pages 5-6, items A-H.
Then I would re-read it several times, I would PONDER it, and then sincerely PRAY to God if Warren Jeffs is a prophet.
"Your wrong, there in at least one case and that is of Merilyn Jeffs Keate... She is 18 and has a 18 month old son and is listed as Allen Keate's wife. Allen is 55."
Ok, so I missed one. But, isn't 17 the age of consent to intercourse in Texas, and did it even happen there?
I'm not trying to say that underage marriage has never happened. I'm just trying to get people to understand it's not nearly as prevalent as some believe. Can we drop the matter now? I thought this thread was about advice for the FLDS.
To anon @8:00
As Pligchild posted in another thread, U. Warren probably had a nervous breakdown or had been drugged when he made those statements.
About Elissa:
The truth of the matter is, and I've heard this from MANY people, she was begging and pleading when she was in high-school to get married (she wanted an excuse to get out of school). She was trying to get Uncle Fred to get her married. Well, she finally got her wish, but I guess Allen just wasn't the glamor boy she had in mind. Then she runs off, commits adultery with some other boy (older than Allen), and blames all her problems on Uncle Warren, who never even arranged the marriage in the first place. She never would have been married that young if she hadn't really pressed the issue. Hopefully this all comes out if Uncle Warren's case gets appealed.
Why the red car? There's nothing at all wrong with owning a red car. The only red we avoid is in our clothing. I thought it was rather funny to read the reports about how CPS was trying to hide anything red from the children. If they'd just listen to us for advice instead of ex-members, their job might have been a little easier.
As for how he and his wife were dressed, they were in hiding. There are times when it's acceptable for our people to dress like the gentiles, and exceptions are made to the dress code.
I just read the warrant to get DNA for Warren Jeffs.
http://www.myeldorado.net/
Read pages 5 and 6.
I hope these are false accusations, but my gut says otherwise.
Jeffs also stated Willie should have been the man in the leadership role. What was Willie's response to that?
Before Jeff's took over; where did Winston stand?
flds_guy, help me with this one. Do I have this right? 1. Warren was out of his mind or drugged during the several times, over several days in prison when he renounced being a prophet. 2) You want to drop the discussion about underage marriages, despite new evidence against Warren 3) Elissa, her sisters, and other witnesses are just a bunch of liars. 4) Warren and Naomi were dressed that way to be in disguise.
Any other tall tales for us to swallow?
I guess my advise for the FLDS would be to accept the possibility that Warren has led a good people astray. They should look to their past for righteous principles that indeed line up with the 3-in-1, and put on the shelf or in the toilet all those things that don't line up with principles taught in the scriptures. Don't wait too long before all your hopes and dreams are dashed and you are left to the buffetings of Satan.
Flds Guy you said this in an above post about Elissa..blames all her problems on Uncle Warren, who never even arranged the marriage in the first place. She never would have been married that young if she hadn't really pressed the issue.
Now explain these comments from the mouth of your prophet.
You cannot change what the prophet says and think you're obeying.” (WSJ 1/4/96)
“He sets a perfect example and you can feel his spirit if you're praying.” “The one man - the prophet - will never teach you wrong. He will always lead you right.” "The prophet doesn't make mistakes as far as marriages are concerned. . . .If ever a marriage fails, it's not the prophet's fault. It's the people who lived it wrong if their marriage failed." (WSJ 1/4/96, 4/2/96)
SEEMS THE PROPHET CAN MAKE MISTAKES
“Man actually belongs to [the] prophet, willing to do what is directed.”“Each Prophet stands as God to the people. When he speaks, it is the Lord speaking.” “ When you're in the presence of our prophet, you're in the presence of God.” “The prophet is God with us and God over us. To obey the prophet is to obey God.” (WSJ 12/26/95, 1/4/96, 11/20/95)
“The reality of our family is that all our children belong to the prophet. You ladies do also.” (WSJ 4/3/98)
"Your testimony will be tested by how you get married. If you exert your faith and obedience so the Lord can speak through the Prophet on your behalf, that will give you an anchor to your soul, that whatever you go through in that new family you know you are doing the will of God in overcoming the dross within." (WSJ 4/3/98)
AND IN CONCLUSION...
"We should consider any disobedience to the prophet as though it was death.” “Truly, rebellion against the prophet is death.” “Obey the prophet when he speaks and you'll be blessed. Disobey him and it is death.” (WSJ 12/26/95, 12/21/95)
If Elissa was wanting to be married like you suggested, why did she object to Allen and risk "DEATH"
Your argument is laughable.
Anyway Warren broke the law and that is why he is jail.
Go back and read the jury instructions.
Warren broke the law, and so did Allen.
These quotes of Warren came from flds101blogspot.com.
Willie Jessop (Glade Jessop's son) & William E.(Timpson)(sired by A.A. Timpson) Jessop (adopted by Uncle Fred M. Jessop) are TWO different men.
http://thehopeorg.org/RozitaSwintonLegalDocuments.pdf
Read the Arrest Warrant on Rozita Swinton for yourself.
Steven your link didn't work.
http://www.myeldorado.net/graphics/Warren%20Jeffs%20Search%20Warrant-1.pdf
(copy/paste is better than clicking on this pop up window)
After reading the warrant I can say that it is possible that Warren Jeffs is the father of the child born to a 15 year old wife in 2005 when 14 year olds were allowed to get married in Texas.
When I saw the pictures, I was absolutely shocked. It has thrown me off kilter for a while now. Even Dan, the girls older brother was shocked at seeing them. They make Flora and Carolyn's dreams come true.
The FLDS religion has no minimum age written in the scriptures, but I always figured we followed the law concerning that. It is rather impossible to defend those pictures as a marriage in your eyes, and I won't. I don't even want to. I am sure it is Flora who is "dancing in her seat". I don't know anyone in the FLDS who want to believe that it has happened, or want to sanction it.
Although the pictures and the possible news of him having a child with a 14 year old are shocking beyond belief. (And he could face more prison for it) The Warrant is incorrect in its assumption that FLDS marriages are consumated immediately. That is not true, in fact it is very rare.
In Elissa Walls book she said that she and Allen went to see Warren over a year after they were married, and he suggested that they should have a child.
He had no idea they had already been trying.
In Mormon history just before the Saints left Illinois to come to Utah there were many sealings of very young girls and some young boys. Mosiah Hancock and Mary were both 11, but were told to stay away from each other until 16.
In the early part of this century a 12 year old orphan girl was sealed to the man who adopted her, but they didn't connsumate until she was 17.
THAT is the last time I ever heard of a sealing of a girl younger than Elissa. Elissa was the youngest I heard of, and I didn't know how old she was until the court case, and THAT shocked me. She looked older than my eighteen year old wife was, and we got married over two years before.
As far as those flds101 quotes, they are strung together out of context. There HAVE been girls who said no to who the Prophet suggested. Two of them are relatives of mine. There HAVE been girls who were realased from their marriages when they felt they were being mistreated. You have had one posting on this very blog! No marriage is ever forced, and no marriage is ever performed unless the girl wants to get married. And no abuse is condoned. Period.
And if that photo turns out to be real, and they put her in a foster home based on that evidence alone. Do you think you will ever convince her that she is not married to him? She will serve her time in prison and feel it an honor.
Even Elissa's older sister Becky, who sat on the stand and railed against Warren Jeffs, STILL believes that she will be married to Rulon Jeffs in the Celestial Kingdom. I heard her husband on the phone with his father complaining about it.
Strange religion? Sure you can argue that and get none back.
But abusive? No, you have to get that from CPS.
Girls need a Daddy, someone who only wants to hug them and protect them. When I was 14 I remember my Dad and my sister's friends Dads discussing what they would do to protect their daughters from preditors. It had something to do with a rusty tin can lid.
FLDS_Guy I will pray directly to God that the scales will be removed from your eyes and you will see the truth.
(I will also pray for a wonderful young woman to come into your life)
Interested in the truth about Flora Mae Jessop ?? Read this:
http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=45
Aunt Martha speaks the truth as I was one of the friends that Flora ran around with, until my Father put a stop to it..which I am so great full.
To go back to the original question: if I were an FLDS member and CPS had my kids, i'd move out of the compound so I had a place CPS would believe was safe to take the kids home *to*.
It's not at all uncommon for CPS to require that parents move out of homes with abusive family members - so, if you've got a husband with a history of marrying women half his age or allowing his daughters to be married off young, MOVE OUT.
You don't have to be divorced to do that - if you're sealed for all eternity, what does the time between when a young girl becomes a grown woman matter, really?
"it is possible that Warren Jeffs is the father of the child born to a 15 year old wife in 2005 when 14 year olds were allowed to get married in Texas."
Here is more advice for the FLDS. Please try and understand the marriage laws.
Even though the law in Texas was 14 years old, there were certain requirements that had to have been met. I do not think he was not legally married (otherwise the FLDS would have shown a marriage certificate). Bigamy is illegal, so he could not get a marriage license without breaking the bigamy law.
Get the marriage license, break the bigamy law. Do not get the marriage license and be a sexual abuser.
In my opinion, this is one of the main problems the FLDS have, they see themselves as above the law.
More advise:
If you do not like the law, work to get it changed like the rest of us. Until then, obey the law.
As a gentile I have tried to read as much as possible about the FLDS. All I read shows this to be a very abusive religon to woman and children. If this is not the case why is there nothing out here for us gentiles to read that states otherwise? We get our opinions from what we read to be the truth, if it is otherwise the FLDS should get materials out to the general public to read. I live near one of the FLDS compounds. All I know is they are very unfriendly and want nothing to do with us gentiles. Maybe if there was a more openness with us gentiles we would not have the opinions we have of FLDS. We are NOT the devil/satan. I would love to get to know the woman in the compound and learn about them and why they believe the way they do. I would like to learn and understand more. I think if that could happen we all could live together and have harmony. When one knows about other religions and people they usually can live side by side with out problems. Let us learn more about you and you about us. I think we both would find we are alot alike down deep. We all want our children to be happy and have a good life and to learn to love god and his kingdom.
More advise:
If you do not like the law, work to get it changed like the rest of us. Until then, obey the law.
I suppose they could just follow rules of law by marrying then divorcing each woman in a lawful sequence, and look after the ex-wives emotional and financial needs as set by each divorce settlement. I am sure it is quite legal for ex-spouses to share jointly held properties. Now would this make their way of life legal?
At very least this would stop any possibility of underage or other unlawful marriages.
I appreciate pligchilds response. I felt sick to my stomach when reading the warrant and seeing the photos. The photos should have at least been altered to cover the faces of the girls, to protect their privacy.
Plichild said, "And no abuse is condoned. Period."
Advise: The FLDS need to read "The Primer Helping Victims of Domestic Violence and Child Abuse in Polygamous Communities "
I have read it and found it very informative.
On page 32 under the title "Defining Domestic Violence" there is a list of the different types of abuse. I did not realize there were so many types of abuse until I read it. We tend to think of physical and sexual when we say the word 'abuse'. The Primer lists Spiritual, Psychological, Emotional, and Verbal abuse as well. This was an eye opener.
Here is the link: The Primer
http://attorneygeneral.utah.gov/cmsdocuments/The_Primer.pdf
I want to be clear that I do not take the Warrant at face value, as they have been wrong on most of the ages of the "minors" already, so it is possible and I HOPE it is true that the "15 year old" mother is in fact an adult, or his daughter married to a much younger man. The pictures on the other hand are pointless (though shocking), even if there was a sealing, except to get mad people madder. They were "inspired" that he would be gone for a long time. I will believe that.
You will never understand unless you read Aunt Martha's story of the life of Flora Jessop at truthwillprevail.org and know it is true. Reading the story broke my heart again. My sister Fawn's story is similar (minus the sex) and yet most people still believe she fled a "forced marriage" My father treated her the same way as dear Uncle Fred did Flora. Yet Flora had Fawn give an affidavit saying she was "abused and feared for her life". The CPS and authorities in Arizona investigated, the charges were dropped, and Flora was ordered to stay away from Fawn. That part of the story never made the paper.
The charges against Joe C could not be proven in court, and he did not go to jail. Regardless, he was excommunicated from the church, and any and all men who are suspected of doing the same are turned over to the police. In my view aggravated rape should be subject to capital punishment. No matter who did it. It makes my blood curdle.
"In my opinion, this is one of the main problems the FLDS have; they see themselves as above the law."
The FLDS are the only minority left in the country where the laws have been and continuously are directly written to persecute them. The religion predates every law that they break, and each law has been written directly to stop the FLDS religion. Other than that they are the most law-abiding citizens in the country. (If they are living thier religion)
Marriage in most peoples eyes is a legal matter and is sexual, not necessarily so for the FLDS. We couldn’t care less if gay people can get a piece of paper from the civil authorities. Civil marriages are not binding in the church, and we never desired to make polygamy "legal". The problem is this central tenant of obedience to the religion is "criminal". The First Amendment should cover that, but Bigotry has a much more powerful lobby.
Steven, the key words are at the top of page 32: "Domestic violence is about power, control, domination, and fear."
And I agree WHOLEHEARTEDLY. Girls do not get married out of fear in the FLDS, except in hindsight. ANYONE who would do this is not living the FLDS religion.
I assume you are LDS, and if so I would like you to read a New York Times article from their archives about Brigham Young’s wife Anne Eliza who divorced him and he went to jail over it in 1875.
"To be sure, she pleads the "Baby act," as it is called, claiming that she was too young to understand what she was doing when she "married" the Prophet"
(Right click/open in new window)
If women can plead stupidity in marriage, why can't they plead it in a real crime like assault? (i.e. Florida teens who beat girl charged as adults)
1. Martha refers to "Dad" -- at what point did FLDS stop refering to fathers as "Dad" (or "Daddy") and insist that they only be called "Father"? Or has that been a misrepresentation spread far and wide?
2. an 18 year old with an 18 month old son got pregnant 27-28 months prior, that's over two years prior, so more like 15 or 16 when first pregnant.
"2. an 18 year old with an 18 month old son got pregnant 27-28 months prior, that's over two years prior, so more like 15 or 16 when first pregnant. "
The baby was born 2 weeks before she turned 17, so she was 16 at conception.
We keep horses, when we want a foal we put the mare in with the stud, (if she doesn't like him she refuses him), but if things go right 11 months later we get what we wanted, a baby. The mares look after the foals and Stud just moves on to the next mare. Sometimes a filly that is too young gets in heat and will break in with the stud, he does his thing he isn't capable of human thought.
Pligchild said: "If they are living their religion"
You are getting closer to the truth. If the FLDS were living their religion they would not be having the trouble they currently are enjoying.
That young marriages are being made is indisputable. Both of the 'prophets' before warren told the people they were done with young marriages (and they were talking about 18-19 year olds not younger). Had the people accepted this counsel warren would not be in the fix he is now. But then had the poeple listened he would never have been accepted as the 'one man' either.
When his father was in his proper mind (before his stroke) he did not have full confidence in warren. You will one day come to the realization that some aspiring men have hijacked the religion you believe in and turned it into something you will not recognize. You have the advantage at least that you can see from a distance and so you have a broader view. Those who have not been sent away cannot see the forest for the trees and it will take a lot more to wake them up.
I agree with fttc, I heard Brother Jeffs say it more than once that we were not going to do any more underage marriages. We also heard him say it right in church, that we needed to obey the law of the land. He said this around the time that Rodney Holm was in the courts.
It looks like slick Willie released a statement saying that the FLDS are going to comply with the laws of the land concerning the marriage age.
Maybe the FLDS have decided to finally obey the advise and wisdom of their dear old and wise leaders of the past, now maybe they will begin to square things up with the 3 in 1.
I'm hopeful about the statement that Willie made about underage marriage and that it's a step in the right direction.
I was taken aback by the photos of reportedly 12/13 year old girls. Inspired or not, it matters not. Girls of 12/13/14 even 15/16 but especially 12 and 13 have no business doing anything but being a kid while LEARNING HOW TO BE the adult they'd like to be, NOT LIVING AS THE ADULT THEY THINK THEY'D LIKE TO BE!
If the FLDS follows through with their underage marriage statement, then if they:
• stop sending fathers away and reassigning their families
• start making sure that they remain responsible for boys under 18 and care for them until they're 18
... then I'll feel better about the choices young FLDS people have available to them.
This has NEVER been about religion in my mind.
Willie stated that the would obey the concent laws of the state they are in. Texas is 17, but isn't Utah and Arizonia still 14?
Swear to never let my daughter marry, spiritually or otherwise, until she was at least 18, preferably older, and mean it
Swear to never reject or cast out any child of mine, girl or boy, and mean it
Look at those photos of Warren Jeffs kissing babies and resolve to never again follow a false profit!
I am NOT impressed with Wiillie Jessop. Are there two of them? If so, the one that is the 'spokesperson' for the FLDS is the wrong man for the job. I do not trust his word any more than I trust Flora. I would like to read about any statement that he has given about stopping underage marriages. And when he compares Utah AG Mark Shurtliff to Gov Boggs is ludicrous.
FLDS man,
Why do you all still follow Warren? What was his explanation for wearing shorts and being caught in a red automobile? I'm sure that there were jeans he could have worn that would still have covered his legs and he also had a tshirt on. If the rules are the rules, then what excuse did he give you for not following them?
Also, why, after he was recorded denouncing himself as prophet, do you still follow him? Doesn't that show that he is NOT? THat for once he was actually telling the truth?
I feel sorry for all polygamists that feel persecuted. I feel sad that you feel like the world is out to get you, and that laws are made specifically against you. By arguing that laws are made specifically against you, you (FLDS) are agreeing that marriages to minors are accepted by you and your religion. If there were no violations against minors, the law would not be affecting you and it would not matter. Yes, the law in Texas was changed for you, because you were fleeing Utah, where the law was being broken and men charged with the crimes. You have brought this ALL upon yourselves because of YOUR behavior. Your leader is in jail for crimes against minors, he himself is accused of being married to more than one minor.
I am taught to get answers for myself and not to follow blindly. It appears that you follow your leader blindly. Whatever he says goes. That is spiritual abuse. Fftc said on another post: “As for warren, he will reap what he has sown.” That is exactly right, both in this life, and the life to come. Unfortunately, the innocent and guilty FLDS will reap what he has sown.
I am sure glad you gave the reference to the article on Brigham Young. That article shows one of the reasons that polygamy should either be done away with, or legalized. I prefer the prior. Women have no claim upon their husbands and loose rights within polygamy. No rights to support from their spiritual husband if they were to divorce. This goes against scripture, in my opinion.
This specific post is for us to give the FLDS our thoughts of what you should do. I feel sorrow for you in the deepest part of my soul. I consider you a lost family member. You should review carefully the list of things that I feel sorry for you about.
Sorry that ALL the children were taken from the ranch,
sorry that Willie is your national spokesperson,
sorry that you try and justify present day girl marriages with 19th century examples,
sorry that Jeffs picture seems to be the only picture in the homes of FLDS,
sorry that you think the most people that leave your communities are 'liars',
sorry that you have had investigations into the law enforcement in CC/Hildale,
sorry that many men have been excommunicated and their families reassigned to other men,
sorry that so many underage boys are kicked out,
sorry that repentance and forgiveness are not practiced more,
sorry that so many young girls look forward to being married as young teenagers,
sorry that sorry that you could not own your own property until the government stepped in,
sorry that women do not have any rights in a divorce,
sorry that the child poverty level is so high in CC/Hildale and so many are living on foodstamps, while those in Texas drive new luxury cars and trucks and live in new homes with a temple in their back yard,
sorry that your children will most likely be taught that they are being persecuted for their religion and that they now have even more reason to distrust the outside world,
sorry that your children will most likely not go away from home to get a college education,
sorry that you seem to pick and chose which scriptures to follow,
sorry that your ancestors did not accept OFFICIAL DECLARATION—1
and the visions of the prophet.
Steven, I do appreciate your concern. While I have never endorsed "underage" marriage, I don't believe that 16 is underage. I do believe that 14 is, unless there are very special circumstances. And I would want to follow the laws that are not written specifically to stop my religon.
I am sorry that you are sorry that we are willing to live the complete religion of Joseph Smith and Brigham Young.
I don't want to make polygamy "legal" either, but removing the "criminal" term would keep abusers from getting away with abusing other laws; for the ladies who want to live the law would not feel persecuted.
Of course even Wilford Woodruff didn't obey the "Official Declaration" of 1890 himself.
"1897 Sept, Wilford Woodruff, married 6th wife, Lydia Mountford. (President of the church, married Lydia a year before he died)"
You are right pligchild about Woodruff.
The fundamentalist have had a long history of deceit and lies.
So this statement William Jessop gave about underage marriage is NOT worth the paper it is written on and it was very cheap paper!
Was Wilford Woodruff a fundamentalist? I think the LDS would take issue with that.
Wilford Woodruff was 90 in 1897, his first 2 wifes had allready passed on in 1885 and 1894, if he wasn't with the other 3 he could marry again with out breaking any covnants. it is interesting to note that he died in California.
Wow so many FLDS hating bigots in this blog...
First off I'm glad your kids were released from false imprisonment and I hope they never go back.
That Larry King guy is an idiot you shouldn't give him any more interviews.
I think you should have every child who is willing to talk make a video describing their experiences with CPS. Yes a few stupid people will claim the children are brainwashed for wanting to live with their parents heh .. But maybe it will open the eyes of some ignorant people out there.
All this time I have been infuriated by the way the children have been treated like pieces of meat to be tossed around with no regard for THEIR feelings. Now is the chance for them to speak out and tell the world what they think of being arrested and incarcerated and humiliated for their parents religious beliefs.
You should do this ASAP before CPS decides to snatch them again.
Good luck and God bless you all..
Yes only Larry King would ask the women a dumb question like "Have you ever seen anyone have sex with a minor?" Gee of course not they have never watched anyone have sex. I mean those poor women even blushed at the word sex.
To the FLDS, you've travelled a very difficult path and have more ahead. God keep you.
"I think you should have every child who is willing to talk make a video describing their experiences with CPS."
First they should have every child who is allowed to talk make a video describing their experiences with the fLDS.
I would have started with the Truth if I had nothing to hide.
I have a question concerning Rulon and Lureen Keate. They appeared in 2 TV interviews. In the 1st they say they are the parents of 5 boys and one daughter, Natalie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwKbz_l3kTE&feature=related. In the 2nd they say all 6 of their children are boys: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/%2021134540/vp/24575095#24577612. What's up with that?
What this really comes down to is the ultimatum that we are not free to practice religion or our own morality. I think its easy to sit on the outside and judge those that live the way they do, however the Beaurobeasts are notorious for hypening the story to fit their target goal, too unfortunate they can allow their egotistical pride that has already caused a once great nation to undergo life ending changes, they allow pain, suffering, and death of children to have a turn in their games. They know why kids have leukemia,they know how to cure cancer, and they know HIV doesnt necessarily lead to AIDs and it is not just a sexually transmitted desease. Do they care who they hurt? Do they care whose family crumbles while they line their bank account with money of their labor and raise their over spoiled one day future Aires spend and do at will. The only thing proved to me, is the way the government has proved the theory that with just enough money you are above the law and above all the other subhumans that slowly drify off into a world of unfortunatism till god cometh forth and bring judgement to the masses of wickedness and to the masses of the lost and left behind, divinity and saviority.
Read "Escape" by Carolyn Jessop if you want some 'insider info."
Carolyn Jessop ; an insider. What is an insider? Is that a man from mars? Is that a man from Texas? Is that a person inside the government clan? is an insider a person who stay's inside forever? what a statement! hear ye, hear ye, the words of an insider! And insider! an insider!
ask the state/US government's assistance so i can have my children back and start a new life with them outside of the flds territory.
then i would come forward to the media so the world will understand what is going on within the flds premise for only when the rest of the world becomes aware of the way of life of these people will they be able to help correct these ignorant/innocent people's way of life, educate them and even save them, especially the women and children from possible abuse.
is it right to pick a spouse for another person who has no idea who he/she would be marrying? and if a girl, underage or not, marries a much older man because she was told to --- even if she willingly does... what does she know? these girls have been raised to believe they have to obey. brainwashed, in fact.
why don't these people pick their own partners? why do some people there have to play matchmakers?
and how can a man keep all his wives and his children in one house? whenever he sleeps with one of the wives, how does the rest of the wives feel? don't they ever get jealous? don't they ever get hurt? don't they complain?
these men who can afford to have multiple spouses are not only selfish and insensitive... but are also ridiculously disgusting. especially when these men come to their old age and still afford to marry teen-agers. they should be ashamed of themselves!
Carolyn Jessop ; an insider. What is an insider? Is that a man from mars? Is that a man from Texas? Is that a person inside the government clan? is an insider a person who stay's inside forever? what a statement! hear ye, hear ye, the words of an insider! And insider! an insider!
***
hey! before you mock someone else's comment, read the topic so you won't have to keep guessing what that person's comment meant.
if you have nothing sensible to say, keep your idiotic mockery to yourself!
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