FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs may be serving life in prison, but his followers continue with their work on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas where the group's white limestone Temple towers over the town they are building. Polygamy, the practice of plural marriage, appears to be alive and well in the Lone Star State, despite laws to the contrary.
Tuesday, April 15, 2008
food for some further thought.
By virtue of giving the State a mandate to protect us from ourselves and each other, have we in fact, be come property of the State?
I am baffled by what is unfolding on the news. How can CPS possibly justify taking ALL of the children after entering looking for ONE? Property of the state, indeed. This is merely religious persecution until they have proof of real crimes - rather than the gossip and prattle of theoretical wrongs reported by disgruntled neighbors.
If law enforcement is unable to provide proof of real and actual abuse soon I hope to see the YFZ win enough in lawsuits to build themselves a few more temples.
you have the right to practice religion but, you DON'T have to right to practice it ON other people including and especially ON your own children they have the right to grow up and chose for themselves
in the environment of CC and the Ranch they are denied
It's the responsibility of the State to fix this situation
Yep, until we are 18 and able to actually vote on those who are in control. Parents in this country, and especially TX, have less and less say over their children and how they are raised.
Children need to be protected from abuse...but REAL abuse, not merely PERCEIVED abuse because some other family does things differently and we don't like their religion or how they dress.
Little Johnny down the street has a mom that is a crack addict and goes to bed hungry most nights since mommy is to strung up to cook him dinner. This is in every neighborhood in America folks. Why hasn't CPS stepped in to take little Johnny away? Thank goodness he gets that lovely government nutritional lunch at school so he doesn't completely starve.
I agree with anon 9:26. We would't be a civilized (or caring) society if we turned a blind eye to those kinds of activities.
That is the way this country works. It's not special treatment or predjudice toward the FLDS. We are all accountable under the law...even if you have a large fence around your community.
If you ask me, the government has been very long-suffering with the FLDS group. In Utah and Arizona, the authorities seemed to be somewhat apathetic (corrupt)towards the FLDS, often turning a blind eye. Perhaps many of the folks responsible for administering the law were either FLDS or had relatives within.
Now the group is in Eldorado. They don't have the Texas government in their pockets. As a Texan, I would hope that would never happen.
Does anyone know if the FLDS group in Mexico has had any trouble with the law? Perhaps that would make a better Zion.
Most of us on the outside disagree with polygamy, but child rape and abuse is morally wrong and against the law.
I know those responsible for such conduct will be answering to the Lord, but I also hope they answer to the state of Texas.
No. We haven't become property of the state. We're just being protected from becoming someone else's property. And others are protected from becoming our property.
Some peopler obviously don't get that they can't own a child or woman.
I am in favor of harassing and making life miserable for anyone who has sex with a minor, throws the burden of providing for their children on the state and abusing public finance of schools and police departments to further their own ends.
As far as I am concerned the children of ElDorado/YFZ are crying because of what their parents have done not what Texas CPS has done.
We bombed Japan and Germany to preserve our way of life and our culture and consequently children died. I don't blame the military for these innocent deaths and regrettable as they may have been we didn't cause them.
Likewise, I don't blame Texas CPS. I blame the leaders, officers and followers who freely choose a culture destroying way of life. My culture! And guess what!? As painful as this is it isn't death.
Next we'll be overrun with Muslims and African animists who want to have their unique way of life financed by welfare. I draw the line and I am starting with whites in Utah, Arizona and Texas.
We'll never stop polygamy but we need to make child marriage (i.e. rape), and "bleeding the beast" so painful that the gnats and leeches learn how to stop.
You hit it the nail on the head. The state does seem to think that we are property. Therefore, the State will restrain me if my particular religious beliefs are not on their State sponsored list.
Since the media is also property of the state, truth will be determined by them. If CNN says that all FLDS males are abusers, that must be so. It doesn't matter if there is no evidence to back up their claims.
I respect your viewpoint, but I disagree. If the people of YFZ were following the law, there would be no need to even have this discussion.
You end up as the property of the government when you make choices that any rational person can see ends only in legal trouble.
And really, that's the point. Any rational person could see how this was going to end, from the moment the very first buildings were built on the ranch.
so, richard. if we become State property by giving the State a mandate to protect us from ourselves and our neighbors, what happens to our liberty if we give the church a mandate to keep us and our neighbors from sin? :>
In Canada the grovenment decided that what goes on in the bedrooms of the nation between concenting adults isn't their business, several states also have this attitude. But children need to be protected in any inviroment.
Is anyone else thinking that maybe the FLDS orchestrated this whole thing?
Isn't it funny that they can't find the girl who came forward and the man she was allegedly married to hasn't been to Texas for years?
Kinda like when you know vomit is coming, so you gag yourself to get it over with.
The way they're manipulating the media over this whole thing and Waco keeps coming up. It just makes you wonder if they're trying to let everyone in when the house is clean, coach the women and children about what to say, cry mistreatment, then get everyone to leave them alone for another 50 years or so....
I am a son of a polygamist, my father has two wives and I have 8 sisters and 8 brothers…each wife lives in her won house with her kids, and we live next to each other. My father eats and sleeps in both houses alternately and when circumstances don’t allow, he will make it up to keep it even. Both wives are happy and each is taking care of her own house, I like my half-siblings and my step-mother…I am 32 and I am happy for having a 5 years old brother, my nephews is having fun playing with his same-age uncle.
We are living a normal life, we all love and respect my father and we all care for each other… That is how I feel about it…and that is why I feel so sorry and I so understand the complaints of those poor women…they have been living happily and the whole thing disrupted their lives!
I agree if it is about underage girls forced into marriage… but I think it is overrated when it comes to polygamy…. I find it weird when I hear people condemn polygamy and overlook adultery… I see it otherwise… and I hope nobody out there who thinks a son of a polygemic marriage is worse than a bastard!
I think polygamy should be a personal choice…if all parties agree.
It is an attention diver tor in the face of bad economy that is worsening more and more by time. They the elite want to keep your mind busy so you don't look at problems. Look at gasoline and food prices, it is just the beginning. It may get worse than this before the people really will turn the tide against the elite.
Where are the children? Who is taking care of them? Who kisses them, tucks them in at night, and listens to their prayers? Who is letting them know they are loved and easing their fears? Does anyone even care that they are not only frightened, but terrified?
What is their destiny?
Separating them from the people who care about them shows who the real abusers are!!
I don't know what I would do if someone attempted to take my children and I don't understand why there are people who think they are so perfect that they can step in and walk on others like they are doing.
So very many of the reports are based on assumptions. And yet those 'great judges' can rip tiny babies and little children from their mothers arms on those same ridiculous pretences with the thought that the children will be better off because they'll do things 'my way'!
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. All these polygamists need to do to avoid "harassment" is to allow their girls to reach the legal age for marriage before marrying them off. It's that simple. Most of us could care less if grown adults wish to practice polygamy. I, for one, have no issue with the practice, though I believe that what's good for the goose should be good for the gander. ;-)
Why is it so hard to allow these girls to reach the age of legal marriage in the states in which one resides? I'd like someone to give me one valid reason why one cannot wait a couple of years to marry. If you don't like the laws of a state, then go live somewhere else or expect to have the laws enforced.
And yes, I believe that that crack addict's baby down the street should be taken from their family and placed in a safe household as well. I'm pretty consistent across the board on the rights of children.
Using the religious persecution argument doesn't wash with me. Children's rights trumps religious freedom in all cases.
Anonymous asked: "Why is it so hard to allow these girls to reach the age of legal marriage in the states in which one resides?"
First of all, simple arithmetic. There just ain't enough "brides" to go around. A uterus is a priceless commodity to polygamists, and that's all these girls are to them: incubators. To wait five or six years past puberty to start making babies would be completely counter-intuitive.
Secondly, these men, like so many others, clearly value immature traits in women, especially when it comes to their bodies. Why do you think there's such high demand for porn featuring underage or "barely legal" girls? Polygamy is just a "religiously sanctioned" way of replacing your aging wife with a fresh new one. I don't think we'll ever have polygamists who don't see young, barely pubescent girls as fruits ripe for the picking. In reality, men are biologically driven to respond this way. The thing about polygamy is it gives 20th century men an excuse not to feel guilty about it.
300 kids 4 years and younger nightmare for foster care godsend for adoptive services
wonder who cried harder women for their kids men for their temple
I'm wondering why none of the fathers met with the media don't they want the kids back too? maybe they're too afraid of the question "how many are yours?"
Donna, I can't argue that there are men living polygamy that use it for perverse purposes. I will argue that there are men who live polygamy that have wives close to their own age and do not look at young girls with lustful eyes. I know many of them. They have three or four wives within ten years their age (who all married at adult ages) and are content with the family they have. Those that will marry underage girls are few when you take into account the number living polygamy.
Sense no one knows who is bedding with you my question is this. Are any of the children special needs? If there are any, where are they? You don't see them on TV. What did they do with them if there are any? Having a child with " special needs" takes lots of care. Just wondering if the social workers have even thought of it.
Why shouldnt the government intervien? They are LIVING OFF THE GOVERNMENT and seem to think thats ok? And no, I do not feel sorry for these wives as I hear them in interviews- to mainsteam, they sound like weak, brainwashed wemon sacrficing their children to appease a man.... Anyone care for some Kool-aid? Ladies first!!!
You said you are in favor of the crack addict's baby down the street being taken from them. That is all good but why not take all the children in that neighborhood and all the children on that street maybe on a few more adjoining streets as well and treat everyone of them as you would treat the polygamist children simply because they live close together?
Your thinking is like Hitler's--since they live differently than you get rid of them all! Not just the abuser--get them all! There is always a slim chance that they could become that way as well. Destroy them now befor that happens.
You can bet your bottom dollar that not all of those people are of the nature you choose to believe, no matter how the media portrays them.
I know some who are the most kind and caring people I have ever met. I am positive that if you were in trouble they would be there to help you through it. They would not take you, along with all your friends, relatives and anyone who had anything to do with you and decide you weren't worth keeping.
This is an unfair and unpredictable world but that doesn't mean everyone in it needs to be.
For 50 years they've shunned society and the press. Convenient timing now, as it was in the 50's, to parade their women in front of the cameras in an attempt to guilt us into giving back their kids. Hint... you ladies might get more sympathy from us if there were any actual tears in your contorted faces. And your denials of child abuse might be a bit more believable if not for all the pregnant little girls.
You're welcome to practice your religion and worship how you please. But when it comes to child abuse and a whole list of other offenses, it's no longer a question of faith. You've enjoyed way too much tolerance. Instead of Big Love, it's time for tough love.
i know this is beside the point but street has recently invaded the san angelo newspapers blog below the stories. Man, just when you think you didn't have to read any of his insanity.
Reasons the state (We the People) will never leave FLDS alone.
1.Bleeding the Beast; using the states funds to support your family.
2.Fumarase Deficinecy; Taxpayers have been footing the bill for the fumarase deficiency children born to polygamists who insist that plural marriage involving close relatives is their divine right.
The "Take all of the children into custody because of the actions of a few." analogy being used by FLDS members and some people here is false. There is a big difference between the abuse that goes on in most towns and the alleged abuse in the YFZ ranch. (I say alleged, not because I believe it wasn’t happening, but because the FLDS people haven’t had there day in court.) The people in most towns don’t follow the same leaders, don’t believe the same things, and don’t live in such a controlled community. The FLDS members, especially those in the YFZ ranch, teach the wholesale practice of abuse and that they have to do what there leaders say not matter what. Weather they like it or not in Texas, Utah, Arizona, and probably every other state, it is child abuse for an adult to marry anyone under 16, something that the FLDS teaches is acceptable.
This isn’t just some town. They live together, work together, worship together, and follow the same leaders. This is a town controlled to the point where it is in essence one big family and as such, when an adult is abusing even one of thier kids, ALL of their kids are taken, until they get there day in court.
Taking these children from loving mothers is not only evil it has lifelong consequences for the children. My heart aches for these children. They will be in such distress and fear right now. They will lose trust in adults for doing this to them.
Imagine if your neighbour was abusing their child and CPS came in and took your children too, just in case. Surely this is against the law.
This is an attack on freedom of religion and an attack on the children and the children will suffer for ever for this. The mothers are in agony over the loss of their children.
If polygamy was legal and bound by certain laws then underage marriage could be prosecuted on a case by case basis, not this wholesale witch hunt that has gone on in Texas.
These children as they grow up will feel more drawn to their religion and community, not less, because the outside world has done them terrible harm. If you want to make someone into a fundamentalist then attack the foundation of their beliefs because that will do it every time.
Shame on Texas. And where is "Sarah" and does she exist?
o, richard. if we become State property by giving the State a mandate to protect us from ourselves and our neighbors, what happens to our liberty if we give the church a mandate to keep us and our neighbors from sin? :>
Figure it out. Do Robots need to worry about liberty?
I come to this blog to hear what FLDSers and ex-FLDSers have to say about these situations.
NOT to hear what a bunch of people who are ignorant to the innerworkings of both the FLDS and polygamy.
All of you blaming this on polygamy -- that is not the case. There are people in monogamous relationships raping their children, beating and brainwashing their wives. Quit blaming these actions on polygamy; contrary to popular belief polygamy doesn't objectify or oppress women. Many of the women I know who practice polygamy are neither Mormon NOR are they "submissive" (in the sense of allowing their men to beat the crap out of them or rape their 14 y/o daughters).
You people need to grow up. You fear the unknown.
That being said -- the only reason I'm happy the state has intervened is so that those who ARE being abused can be helped. Those that have no sign of abuse need to be returned to their families immediately. There is NO REASON for non-abused children to be away from their loving parents, no matter how many mothers and fathers there are.
And you know what? I'm NOT a hypocrite; if they do it the way *I* believed in they could come to my neighborhood (I live IN the "hood")and do the same thing. Because my kids aren't abused. My husband has no underaged wives. But there are those around here that are and could use the help.
And -- what does the state propose be done with these children, if the judge allows the parental rights to be removed? Where will we put all of these children? Into the foster care system? The system that is PROBABLY worse than their own homes?
You're planning to introduce them to a society that is plain ole wicked. I am not a Mormon OR a Christian. I don't believe in Mormon theology but -- guess what? I believe in YHWH and all that is pure and good and I have to admit that the world is a wicked place. You want to bring them out because they don't get to watch tv (TV-MA) or have access to the internet (type in things wrong and you will end up on a porn site)? They can't listen to secular music (even the most innocent of songs today have a sexual innuendo to them).
We're not helping.
I don't think it's 100% right. Just like everybody else, *I* just wanted to know WHAT was going on in there (what can I say? Nosey American, that's me lol).
now that I know, I want those that are truly trying to be righteous and are not abusing their children to get their children back.
Let's see how you'll feel if someone ever accuses you of abuse and takes your children away, presumably under false pretenses.
I give a lot of slack to those who come on here and abuse all polygamists with blanket statements because I know they do not understand and have no desire to understand. I have determined it is part of human nature to judge others by our own experience. If I can't stand to eat onions all must be weird that will consume them by choice, etc.
A number of polygamy pros have asked the cons how they would feel if it were their children being taken. A legitimate question on the face of it but I don't think it applies much here. I had a moment of deja vu when I was listening to the interviews of the mothers today. When one lady started to tell how she had been separated from her children and told she may not see them again my mind flashed back to several interviews given about four years ago by fathers in Hildale/CC that had their families taken away by warren. They had been gone from home and when they returned the family was gone and they were not allowed to contact them until court proceedings forced the issue. The story was exactly the same but the shoe was on the other foot. Call it Divine Justice, Karma or whatever you wish but when you cast your bread upon the water it will return. The course has come full circle and what was dished out is being received.
If "they" ask you if you polygamy is Lawful, you might ask, "Is it lawful for two women to have children with NO father present (as in a lesbian relationship)? If your practice is illegal, then surely these "alternate lifestyles" should be equalally illegal. If "they" are concerned about the children being abused, why do "they" cause these same children the ultimate abuse--removing them from their real mothers who love them? Since the children are not at fault, why don't "they" remove the guilty ones (not the innocent ones) from the household and leave the innocents in peace?
Aside from the few mudslingers on the blogs who is attacking plural marriage? No one. I have read the affidavit and the warrant issued for the raid. The only mention of polygamy was in general reference to religious practice and had nothing to do with the findings of abuse. Underage brides to 20+ year old men and/or underage pregnancy was however mentioned in nearly every paragraph. This is what this is all about. STOP MARRYING UNDERAGE GIRLS!! You can cite how the forebears of this religion have been persecuted for violating the laws of the land that have been made specifically for them and think you are a part of the same but you would be deluded. These men stood on principles that have roots in the beginning of Mormonism and history will show that the law no longer prosecutes for these infractions. On the contrary these young marriages have no root in Fundamental Mormonism and they have been decried by the two previous leaders prior to warren. I am afraid the FLDS will not see this simple truth until they have reached their sorry end. God help these children who are being hung out to dry by their own mothers.
Polygamy so frequenly leads to abuse but we'll all overlook polygamy. We will not overlook:
1. raping and impregnating children. Children cannot, by law, consent to sex with an adult. 2. incestuous relations 3. beast bleeding 4. tax evasion 5. child abandonment 6. forcing anyone to live this way of life
There is something seriously, SERIOUSLY wrong with anyone who thinks these children should not have been taken away. Yes...ALL of them!
Do you read / see the news AT ALL!?!? Not one woman/girl gets to chose her husband or whether or not she marries. NOT ONE! Their husbands are chosen for them and when they are to be married is told to them. They have NO CHOICE.
Again...EVERY SINGLE WOMAN / GIRL has no choice. And that my friends is against the law.
EVERY SINGLE WOMAN / GIRL MUST HAVE SEX WITH HER "HUSBAND" WHENEVER HE WANTS IT, even if she doesn't. And that is rape.
So yes, every single underaged girl should have been removed based on that alone.
This is common knowledge.
This is the United States...not Iraq. Women have the right to say "no" to getting married, the right to chose their husband and the rights to say "no" to sex.
And when 30+ year old men are having sex with minors...IT'S CALLED CHILD ABUSE!
Read the news. Read Carolyn Jessop's Escape. Rent / Buy "Banking on Heaven"...then express your opinions.
This appears to be a "Waco" invasion replay by overzealous goverment bureaucrats.Like Waco, few if any crimes will likely ever be proven. How many meth labs have they found in their compound? How much stolen property belonging to outsiders found in their compound? Were they leaving their compound to commit crimes against their neighbors. From what I've seen on the news, these must be dangerous criminals. The police had to bring in their armored vehicles and high powered weapons. Remember - we all do things that seem inappropriate to someone ! What to do about us? Freedom requires immense patience! OK - What about those Amish? They need to get up to speed. Those horses are causing to much methane. Again, we all are guilty of something. God Save America
Why is everyone so stuck on religion and polygamy, neither of these is the case. I don't care who you pray to or who you sleep with, but a child is a child and will not be forced to marry or have sex against their will. All you people who think the government is out to get all of us, and are dodging bigger issues with this are just crazy. Is this story really taking away from fuel prices and the recession "NO" I still read my news today about them and everyone is still concerned about them. The shameful thing about this story is it finally took Texas do something Arizona and Utah should of done years ago. This can be an issue about religion though, why is it that all these religious groups can be tax exempt and anti government,but still will take government handouts at every chance they can get. Arizona put out the facts that Colorado City takes in $8 dollars of government aid for Every $1 they pay in taxes. 2/3rd of the Women in Colorado City are on Welfare, and I am sure it is the same in Texas and Utah. So without the government a large number of children would be starving or worse, so where is it int he bible that you should keep having children as long as you can even if you can't feed them. If it is god's will than why do they need government handouts? I believe this is just another religious scam just like the Amish and Menonites, I have lived around my entire life. Abuse children and do whatever you want as long as you are doing it in the name of christ.
Hey all you molesters posting to this the ATF & FBI are watching they are tracing it to your computer in your town right into your house!! Better look out you never know who's comming knocking at your door!! THEY WILL GET YOU A PUT YOU IN PRISON YOU KNOW WHAT THEY DO TO MOLESTERS IN PRISON DONT YOU?
To 32 year old son of pologomist: I hear no mention of any children of your own. Are you one of the many "lost boys" who can find no wife because all the older men have claimed them? Fortunately, it sounds as if you have not been run off, but have you ever stopped to ask yourself about raising your OWN family? QQ
Well although I feel sorry for the brainwashed women and children of these so called men of God, I do have to say it's about time somebody is doing something about this. These crimes have been going on for quite sometime, I remember seeing documentaries on this years ago. What they are doing is against the law. You do not marry underage children and impregnate them and turn around and give up your own children to old nasty molestors. It's all about CONTROL, and the second worse thing about all of this, is that if this is true that all these women and children are getting welfare checks & supporting these mind controlling men, than we as hardworking, law abiding citizens have been funding this & it just makes me sick. I sure hope that this will be an eye opener for our country, here we are fighting for the rights of women and children in th middle east & this has been going on for quite sometime in our own country. I will keep these women, children and the lost boys in my prayers everyday.
In other polygamy communities many of the woemn collect welfare - so to answer the question of being property of the state, if the state is paying you to care for yourself and your children then yes that makes you property of the state. And guilty of fraud, because to claim welfare you have to claim you are not married but if your in a polygamist marriage then your married by your own laws.
I am a mother in a small town of Texas. I am Catholic which is not a popular religious choice in our town. We homeschool our large family and practice modest dress. It is my right to parent my own children as I see fit. You may not agree with my choices BUT I am not abusing or neglecting my children. The state of TX has crossed a line here with removing some of those children because of the potential for future abuse. Every child no matter how they are parented or what religion their parents practice is at some risk. Why hasn't anyone brought up how many girls aged 10 - 17 gave birth in TX last yr?? Our state has a HUGE problem with teen sex and that is going ignored while $$$$ is going to be spent on fighting the FLDS in court.
If a parent is abusing a child, the state must step in. I think the mothers are as much victims as the kids, not for what the state did, but what the supposedly 'righteous' men of the sect did!!
Yes, that's exactly what we have done! The state owns us and your children! You can get your children taken by state, oh so easily. I have worked with children owned by the state, and most of children remain in facilites for most of their lives, even as adults. Our good old state system. Better hope known of you get a false allegation on you, because your children will be gone most likely. Better fight for your rights, and a revised system of the state. Now, an allegation should be looked into hard core, but this is totally out of control, and I believe these children will only be hurt more, by being taken away from their families. We can't even spank our children, without worring that the state will get involved. And we wonder why some of our future children are angry, reckless etc. That judge has difficult choice to make!!
You say it's easy to have your children taken away. I don't think I agree. Where are you coming from? In what capacity have you worked with children owned by the state? Do you have any personal experience in having your children taken away by the state?
I happen to have a relative who was involved with drugs for years and lived on the street with his family. His child wasn't eating regular meals or receiving a proper education...not to mention all the ugliness that goes with drug abuse. The state only got involved when a fellow concerned family member called CPS to have them check in. They lost their child for a year, but have won the child back after proving they could be drug-free and provide an appropriate home.
CPS worked very hard towards helping this family get back on their feet. It was their belief that what was best for this child was to be with her parents - if they could meet her physical needs.
Trust me on this, the state of Texas isn't chomping at the bit to take on 300 kids. It is their responsibility to do so if the parents are unfit.
It's a disgrace that all this has been dumped in Texas' lap. Shame on Arizona and Utah for turning a blind eye on this situation.
IMHO- The state IS doing everything in it's power to return the children. They interviewed the children before removing them from the ranch. They had to have probable cause to even do that. I think they found it. The next step is for the children to have individual hearings. How else are they going to prove their innocence at this point? The process has (with good reason) been started. There is nothing else left to do but grit out teeth and follow it through to the end of it's course. I feel absolutely confident the state of Texas will find those who are guilty of abuse and punish them. I also feel absolutely certain the state of Texas will find some families innocent and that some children WILL return to their homes.
The state of Texas doesn't care what the reason for abuse is. You may be a drug user or you may have come from a history of abuse yourself. Neither justifies abusing, exploiting, or neglecting a child.
Another thing, there seems to be this attitude that the state of Texas just can't wait to get its greedy little hands on these children.
Let me just put your minds at ease...those of us on the outside don't think that by getting ahold of your children we may have a shot at Heaven. Aside from the bizarre details, the FLDS children aren't any different to us than other neglected abused children.
It would be nice if you would look after their well-being yourself, but if you won't, then we are obligated to step in.
CPS has been doing this to families for years, just not on this scale and with this much publicity. When the mothers were being interviewed on TV and saying "CPS lied to us" with total shock in their voices, I wished I could give them a copy of the dirty tricks list. (It's at http://www.massoutrage.com/dssdirtytricks.htm if anyone has contact with any of the mothers.)
Also, if no one else has posted it, there's a petition up at http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/free-the-innocent-flds
I heard a rumor that foster parents as far away as Iowa are being asked about taking in FLDS children, which would assumably make visitation impossible.
Umm, did you SEE these women on the Larry King show? Whatever happened to them really shouldn't have to happen to anybody else: http://www.236.com/blog/w/sybil_adelman_sage/the_polygamist_wives_on_larry_5931.php
I can clearly see that some of the comments here seem genuinely concerned but I am appalled at the number of hateful un-Christian comments; particularly from some who proudly announce they are Texan. Irrespective of religion there should be a shared common decency and it’s mostly missing from this discussion. I am disturbed that the hate toward an entire group seems to outweigh the golden rule.
SHAME, SHAME, SHAME on ANY of us who are sitting in judgment on this, or any, situation without any evidence! If you are typing hate toward this group what in the world makes you think you have any clue what you are talking about? I guarantee I am closer to this than just about anyone posting here. Even with my access I would not dare say one thing in judgment when I know NOTHING for sure. I hate the concept of child brides and have worked feverishly to prevent it (from the inside) but you know NOTHING. There are many, many, more amazing people committed to their religion and decency within this group than you can imagine. If you have hate in your heart I pray for you.
I do PERSONALLY know of SOME under-aged marriages that have happened with the consent of the parents within the FLDS society and I have been disgusted by it. ALL the men I know of have been prosecuted. That’s right, due process under the law and I have done my best to facilitate that. Remember that. You can hate the crime but love the people and they deserve your love because they are fellow human beings. I do not believe there was ever a reason to remove all the children - NONE. Maybe one or two should have been removed but now it's just a disaster.
Do you REALLY think CNN has any factual information? If you are commenting here, or in the grocery store, or to your neighbor with any allusion that you have ANY answers then SHAME ON YOU! The only things we know for sure is that hundreds of children are without their mothers. And, not a single person has been charged with a crime! How is this possible in the “Land of the Free”?
Hold your babies tighter while you still can; CFS will be along shortly to collect them at the first sight that you are different or that you may be a criminal by association. Association makes stuff leach off on you!-sarcasm intended.
Texas is the LAST place I expected to have so little respect for freedom. Y’all are not what I thought you were.
It kind of occured to me that the way these people want to live; to try to avoid a greater forced assimilation on jointly held private property. Maybe open up a few Casinos next?.
I dont have any objections to plural wives, but ALL the partners need to be 18 or older. Impregnating a 13 year old is immoral. Are the old guys pedophiles? How sad that the young women don't get a chance to live their lives before being saddled with children, when they are just children themselves.
I am new to this blog,I only know polygamy from what I have seen on CNN.It truly seems quite shocking,if the abuses and allegations are true.Can some ex-flds person tell me if the polygamists in Blue Ridge Ga. and Humansville Missouri,are part of the same FLDS cult?
"Lying for the Lord" is a phrase coined by the FLDS which describes the practice of telling untruths in order to preserve and protect your religion or your way of life.
The FLDS feel that polygamy is the principal that will get them to the Celestial Kingdom. Therefore, they feel that lying to acheive that purpose is justifiable.
That is what is going to make this a very difficult situation to sort out.
Excuse us Texans for being a little bent out of shape about this whole thing. Texas is part of the Bible belt and Mormonism is strange enough to most of us. Add the FLDS twist and it's a recipe for outrage.
As a group I think we tend to be a little old fashioned about family and marriage - especially in the smaller towns.
I realize that some of you posting here are used to the lifestyle we're hearing about in the FLDS community, but to those of us who are new to all of this, aliens might as well have landed in Eldorado.
Add to that the fact that these folks (FLDS) think we're all going to the lowest level of Hell just for being different than them.
Just a word of encouragement to any FLDS who are reading. God is still God. Ultimately He allowed all of this to happen. He works ALL things for the good for those who love Him.
For those of you who are having a hard time seeing God in all of this and are angry at your leader (Warren), remember that God can achieve His will even when the wrong person is in charge.
Warren might have received the revelation that YFZ was to be located in Texas. Perhaps God just needed to get all of you here to untangle the mess that Warren made.
This is a painful situation for those of you separated from family. Remember the story of Job. God allowed everything to be taken from him and then restored him.
All of this will work out for the best for those who love Him.
Looks like the call that started this whole thing may very well have been a false report after all. The FLDS should sue for millions. You can't take every child out of ever home because of one allegation that was never substantiated. Plain and simple. This is still america and hopefully those who jumped the gun pay for infringing on religios freedom. Hopefully the ones who child rapers get theirs as well but understand these are two seperate issues, every FLDS is not a child raper. The ones that are get punished ie; warren jeffs.
I want to start my own polygamist compound where all the women are in charge and we get to have our babies but the men have to stay home and raise them and do all the housework and work outside the house too and pay child support because I'll be so busy having fun with all my other husbands. Whatya say girls!! I think we're getting the short end of the stick here. But we as ladies would never ever sleep with underage men. Although a man a little younger would be nice. Sorry... I just got home from a real job so I can pay real taxes to help support religious causes that have nothing to do with me. I'm not from Texas but sure do like they're style. And if you don't like our government move to Mexico or Iraq. Stop complaining. I love my country and our laws.
I want to know why the SOB 's aren't paying child support. As far as I know if you file with social services like alot of these women are doing,they want to know the name of the father. I say DNA testing and then going after them for back support to the state.
"It's not just Texans who are closed minded" - really? Is that really your defense for being so closed minded that you feel all non Christians may as well be "aliens"?
I think that the non-vocal majority of people in and out of Texas see two sides to the issue. The one of wanting to do anything neccesary to protect innocent children, but also that it's a horrible and traumatic thing for children to be ripped from all they know.
This is just a tragic situation all around. Adding religious intolerance to the mix just makes it more difficult.
I know I am new to this blog, but I must comment on freedommama's last blog!! So much anger, and I believe you should read your blog once again! You basically say " No one has the right to judge anyone!" First, reality is we are judged everyday, like it or not! But you clearly are judgemental, and make your judgements clear on many issues, like under-age marriage! I think it's healthy that we as a society have these blogs to speak of our opinons, feelings, and not go out and hurt others! Yes, "Freedom of speech!" And I hope everyone voices their opinions(appropriately!)We the adults make the future path for our children, and as a wife I don't believe their choices/actions are appropriate, but no hate here! I believe sharing my self with one man only, and Christian or not I love my family as it is! And they have made their personal choices in regards to their families. In my opinion, in regards to Pologamy, let's look further on pass judging, and religion! Lets start with STD's, and a man sharing himself with multiple women! The physical and emotional harm of a very older man having sexual relations with teenagers. And I am sure with all the families, and husbands their is incest involved, which can cause defects!It's not genetically right! Also, what about the young girls and boys who do not want to live this lifestyle, and you know their are some that it just comes naturally to want to see the other side of that wall! It's not about religion for me, but I am extremely sure it is for that Ranch. It's like the children outside have civil rights, but inside those walls they are not given that opportunity! I know I keep going on here, but do you really think a child gets what he needs emotionally with a mother with lets say 9 other children and 1 father! And lets not forget all the other children the women care for too! Any young child should be playing, laughing, learning, and sexual intercourse it something special and that should be done by choice, at an appropriate age. You probably think what do I know! Well, I work 1:1 with all ages of kids, and see hands-on the after effects of rape, physical and emotional abuse, and it makes me go home at night, and appreicate and pray my child is not exposed to such, and grow through the stages of childhood,adolescents, and then as an adult he will have to make his own decisions. If my child was in that situation, I would be extremely worried every minute, but I would and always love my child. But I hope he would have respect for women, and his children! I know I keep going on, but one last point! The women do not look happy at all, and in order to make your child happy you must love yourself first!! Just my opinion!
Yes, that clip from Larry King was interesting! I am not sure if they were in shock, tired, and stressed to the max because their world just went upside down. Or if they have never interacted with the outside world, and have poor social skills in our society!! They looked so pale, frail, and how does one handle having 9 babies physically!! I am sure the men were dominant behind those walls, and the women had never really got to know their selves, and what is they believe etc. And suddenly the men are still hidden behind a wall like always!! How knows!!!
Are we sure the women file with social services? How could they get all that, and social services never catch on? I think it would be interesting in it's self to do DNA tests, and god knows who is the father!!
First off Pologamy is against the law,and after that call false or not it's CPS responsiblity to look into the call, and speak to the parents! And I think the Ranch has plenty of money to have had built that castle. Also, if they sue and got millions, we the tax payers will pay in the end!!
Nope! I don't believe god planned this situation, and in regards to that Warren guy~ that's the work of the devil!! I would run like hell if I were them!!
"Looks like the call that started this whole thing may very well have been a false report after all. The FLDS should sue for millions. You can't take every child out of ever home because of one allegation that was never substantiated. Plain and simple." -- ANOM 9:06
hate to tell you this, but it doesn't matter unless it was the police themselves who staged the call.
Yeah, I like the old-fashioned family and marriage values myself, and I am not from Texas. I could see how people are feeling like ALIENS just landed in Texas!!
This is anon 7:48. You are misinterpretting what I said about aliens....lol.
I was just saying that what we have learned about the FLDS group this month is so out of the ordinary for us. I was likening their arrival to the arrival of aliens because of the sharp contrast of lifestyles....get it??
Anyway, are you saying that Texans are closed-minded? If you're referring to child rape and incest, then count me in, sister!
Then according to Texas if ANY Islamic girl is subjected to an arranged marriage, female circumcision, or honor killing then EVERY Islamic child should become a ward of the state - the girls because they are potential victims and the boys because they might grow up to be perps.
Any adult who participated in, knew about, or encouraged the rape and victimization of the children in this cult should be prosecuted.
I can't believe these women are so shocked they are losing their kids.
The way I see it, if a mother let's some old man have sex with their child then...yeah, they lose their kid.
I think the kids that were sent from other states and towns to the Texas compound should be permanently liberated from their birth parents. The parents abandoned them.
Oh and just as long as we're talking about the government and all...I think all those cult members should have their property and assets seized to pay for the care of the children that they abused and neglected.
I find it interesting that cult members are worried about being the property of the government when really the citizens of Texas are having to pay for their illegal and immoral activity.
no, the kids were removed because there was abuse in the HOME... and that was one huge home the kids were in.. and the facts are the facts.. there are at least half a dozen young girls pregnant right now, and others with babies who concieved them underage. Them are the facts.
The kids were removed because there was abuse in the home. As Greg Abbott, our attorney General said today if there were 4 kids and one was being abused, then all of the kids were removed. In this case there were 400+ kids in the homes where the abuse is taking place. I don't feel sorry for the parents.
It is about time.. and they should be prosecuted for breaking the LAW.
I also saw an interveiw with a 'lost boy" who was kicked out for watching news on TV. He said that several of his classmates were married at the end of 8th grade and had babies within the year.
PLEASE NOTE THAT IF A PERSON IS RECEIVING ANY GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE YOU THEN MUST OBEY THE LAW JUST AS ALL THE OTHERS DO AND POLYGAMY IS AGAINST THE LAW, AS THE MEN OF THAT WORLD KNOWS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT BY THE SIDE OF THE WOMEN
I don't believe I misunderstood you. I wasn't implying that Texans are closed minded, I was refuting that idea. I'm a Texan born and raised myself.
I realize that the FLDS lead a lifestyle that is very foriegn to most of us, myself included. It isn't, in my opinion, a "recipe for outrage" though. It's just something we're unfamiliar with. And believe you me, the good God fearing Christians of the Bible belt are not exempt from child abuse and other atrocities just by virtue of being good Southern church-goers.
The point I was trying to make was simply that there is room to be outraged at the idea of child abuse and to want to persue those allegations, while still trying to be understanding and humane towards these people.
It seems to me (from the people that I've discussed this with) that most people fall somewhere in the middle. Wanting to respect religious freedom and the choices of adults, but still feeling the need to implement ways of making sure the kids are safe.
Just for the record, I believe that all state and federal laws should be upheld. I think if the people do not agree with a law they should work to change it, but until then, laws are laws and nobody is exempt. I think anyone who broke the law should be held responsible. I just think it's also the states duty to do their jobs while minimizing the trauma inflicted on innocent people.
why do we all jump down their throats. Civilizations way older "marry" their kids at birth. even today this still happens. Ask any Indian or Pakistani family, most like they have an arranged marriage in their midst. And guess what there is no divorce. I am not familiar with the specifics but I am sure the girls were of "legal age" when they were married with their parents permission. I am not in favor of polygamy by no means however if we had a true separation of church and state there would never be a problem. don't you have to get a state marriage license in Texas before getting "hitched" and then get married in front of a clergy or judge? so if someone gets married without a state license the state has no business because in legal terms the second "wife" would be a piece on the side. It might be despicable for a 40 year old man to have a 16 year old bride, hoever even in Texas that should not be illegal as long as there is parental consent and no coercion towards the teenager. This Country is great but..... you can get married at 16 but don't drink champagne at your wedding not even legally watch an R (never mind X) rated movie.
The outrage I was referring to was the allegations we are all talking about on this blog.
I don't recall saying that others in the Bible belt aren't capable of hurting people or making bad decisions. It appears (from many of the posts I've read here and research I've done on my own), that there is a higher tolerance in their culture for the things we're all "outraged" about. For example, it has been widely reported that there were girls as young as 16 who were pregnant with their SECOND child when they were "invaded" in Eldorado. Many of these children didn't know who their biological moms were.
I am not able (or willing) to personally be a part of this community, so I have to rely on the stories of those who are willing to talk. Many are angry and have an axe to grind, but I cannot ignore the fact that so many of these separate accounts line up to one another.
Even if they're all part of a big conspiracy, you can't argue with the fact that a 16 year old should not have two babies. I know it's physically possible, but if you're going that route, why not just start procreating with them as soon as they start their periods at around 10?
Most people, including me,agree that they have the right to practice their faith.
I don't get some of you on here. Have you ever heard interviews from those that left that force of culture? People/women have left there and have told horrible stories yet you keep saying "one child calls police and they take them all". Have you read the history on this? For years as a country we have allowed them to create a falsehood while taking the taxpayers money..you can dress it up for church and call it religion but for years they abused the system that is trying to save them. Its like the U.S. doesn't want to believe there is actually men out there being perverts and calling it religion so lets "not go there". Its abuse...religious or not its WRONG! And stop saying ONE girl...its several..and over YEARS time.
"I realize that the FLDS lead a lifestyle that is very foriegn to most of us, myself included. It isn't, in my opinion, a "recipe for outrage" though."
Yes, perhaps the way some of them practice it, but under Jeff's tyranny "outrage" has happened. Lives have been destroyed.
Fumarase deficiency is extremely rare. Until roughly 18 years ago scientists knew of only thirteen cases worldwide . However, recently twenty additional cases have been documented in the Arizona/Utah border towns of Colorado City, Arizona, and Hildale, Utah[7] These two towns constitute a closed and controlled community, and were settled in the 1930s by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which is a breakaway sect now unaffiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As such, many of the surrounding communities refer to this disease as "Polygamist's Down's"[8]
Dr. Theodore Tarby, a pediatric Neurologist who has treated some of the sect's affected residents has been quoted as estimating the IQ of these patients as around 25. [9]. Tarby was treating a child with undetermined developmental difficulties when he learned there was a sibling with what was being described as Cerbral palsy. Upon examining the other child, he sent off urine samples for definitive testing only to learn that his patients had a disorder so rare that only 13 other current cases were known.[10] Assuming these numbers are correct, the new cases Tarby uncovered now account for approximately 60.6% of all known cases of Fumarase deficiency.
The fumarase deficiency gene has become very common in this community, due to the practice of Endogamy. It is believed that Joseph Smith Jessop, one of the founders of the communities, and his first wife carried the gene. According to the Phoenix New Times, the stage was set for the or the appearance of the rare disease when their 12th child, Martha Jessop, married her second cousin, John Yeates Barlow, in 1923.[11]. The same article states that some 20 cases have now been documented and that further intermarriage between the Jessop and Barlow families will surely result in more afflicted children.[12] There is the possibility of perhaps hundreds of new cases in future generations if preventative measures are not adopted by the group members who are suspected carriers of the gene.[13] More alarming still is the recent development of a satellite community in Eldorado, Texas, where a temple has been built by FLDS Church members.[14] This new community is populated with many members of these two extended families who can be presumed to be potential carriers of the recessive gene.
The populations of Colorado City and Hildale could be considered examples of the founder effect.
we have enough retards in this world, too bad it didnt end like waco, it could have saved us time and money
Well it seems to me Ross Chatwin is turning out to be a prophet for what he said in 2004:
"Some of the zealous young people within the FLDS organization need to be made aware of the implications of acting in a rash manner. Anything you do that might harm another individual will bring down a thorough investigation of this people. The very religion you are trying to protect will be exposed beyond your wildest imagination."
I think we actually agree and just have a different way of saying things. I assure I'm just as disgusted as anyone at the idea of young girls being forced into marriage and pregnancy. It's abuse and can't be tolerated.
berry -
Yes, I absolutely agree that it's obvious that under Jeffs some horrible things have occured and they need to be stopped somehow. I meant only that the FLDS religious itself shouldn't be an outrage.
The Texas authorities are adamant that this situation is so dire they had no choice but to take the course of action they did. I think they went overboard by removing every child but for argument sake let's say they did exactly the right thing.
How do they explain their distinct lack of action in the case of the hundreds of other 13-15 year old girls in Texas who turn up pregnant every year? No taking the girl let alone all of her siblings into protective custody pending an investigation. Why? They've made their position clear that these cases are rape due to the girls age and that her being okay with it doesn't change anything. They have stated their position that this is the appropriate response to this crime so why don't they resond this way all the time?
Also, now that the State of Texas has made it clear these rapes are unacceptable will they require medical clinics and schools to report it when they become aware that a girl in this age group is sexually active so that CPS can investigate? Will schools and medical clinics who give contraceptives to girls these ages be guilty of facilitating their rape?
For people who think there is no element of religious persecution please explain the contradictory actions of law enforcement and CPS. Hundreds of young girls who fit the definition of rape victims being applied to the FLDS girls go virtually ignored as far as child protection or investigative effort every single year in Texas. Why the extreme response to this small group of girls and zero response to the same crime in hundreds of others?
We all know, from those from the inside, that it is the right of the father to prepare the daughters for marriage. We know what that involves. Considering this, the female children have been violated. There is abuse regardless. Lets face the truth!
I guess we don't all know what it involves. Are you suggesting that it involves incestual activities? If you are could you show me the proof? I used to know many of these fathers and I don't beleive they would stoop that low.
Actually I have read many cases in the news where a minor girl was sexually active with an adult and the adult was prosecuted. I am not saying every case is, there are those clinicians and teachers that will turn a blind eye. Your analogy is flawed in overlooking this point. As far as the children being taken away from the parents in such cases I don't believe you know the parents were aware of the activity and that they condoned it. Do you know of such cases where the family was not investigated?
In Texas it is against the law for an adult to have sexual relations with a child under 16. The FLDS men and women were aware of this law. They chose to ignore it. They are experiencing the consequences of their choice. As Mr. Walsh pointed out in his testimony in court; the idea that these young marriages are a part of Fundamental Mormonism just is not true. If the FLDS have lately adopted this as a principle and part of their religion I suppose they have the right to do so. Is this principle worth defying the law over? I guess we will see. When your forebears went to prison for their religion they did so with the assurance that they were suffering the consequences of following fundamental laws of their religion. I hope you have the fortitude to endure for your principles as well. If the capitulation of the past week is any indication you will eventually see this for what it is.
I am so furious about this ordeal!! Why are the kids still in state custody??? They KNOW the kids are taken care of!!! I am so mad!! Why are we standing for this crap?? This means that they can come into anyones house and take our kids simply because they dont agree with the way they are raised! This is wrong!!! I could go on and on about how wrong this is!
I am sickened by polygamy,but CPS does not have the right to remove all of the children until there is actual proof of abuse...remember, "innocent until PROVEN guilty"? The origniating phone call came not, from an abused 16 year old, but from a 33 year old black female who resided in another state i.e. a hoax. This infomration was released last night on Anderson Cooper/ CNN. If CPS is to be consistent, then they should remove all children from all homes in the US because there is abuse in every town and city of America. Actually, more sexual and physical abuse takes place in foster care than anywhere else! These children are jumping from the frying pan into the fire. May God help them! I believe this is the government's way of controlling religion and wiping it out...start with radical fringe cults (Waco& YFZ) and move on to orthodox Christianity.... We are a nation under judgment for spitting in the face of a Holy God, as we have murdered 50 million pre-born babies,tolerate and promote homosexuality and perversion of all kinds...."God will not be mocked." May we, as a nation, repent and turn back to the God of the Bible.
Can we all agree that anyone under the age of 16 probably isn't ready to start a family?
There is common sense behind this law.
fttc, am I correct in understanding that marriage is a thing that can be used as both a reward and correction tool within FLDS?
If a young girl is righteous, she may be rewarded (by the prophet) with a good husband. If she is becoming a discipline problem, she might be given in marriage to reign her in.
Also a girl can go to the prophet (with her father) and let him know she's ready to be given in marriage...
He would either ask if she had anyone in mind or tell her who she was to marry (through divine revelation).
Hi~ I'm really curious about the DNA testing, and how that will all turn out. Anyone here know much about DNA testing, and how results are worked out? I'm not LDS, or FLDS .... while I think any 16 yr old having sex, or being married is totally out of line, I also think the majority of those kids should be given back to their mothers. For the most part they have a clean lifestyle, and certainly one they are use to. Do the 100 children under 4 yrs of age really have to stay in foster care?? No reason to leave 400 children in state custody just because there might be a couple of girls who are pregnant, and under age. Keep them, send the rest home until it's all sorted out.
The thing I wonder about the genetic testing is how it all shakes out when there are so many mothers, one father, and in some cases there is cousin to cousin marriage, etc. going back a couple of generations ... all within just a few "family" groups. What effect, if any, will that have on the genetic testing. I agree that I can't see any of the men will be willing participants. I have a sneaking suspicion they'll disappear on Tuesday making it difficult to trace. Or, perhaps they'll give false names .... they do have a few days to work it all out. Yikes .... what a mess! TWR
Of course it can. Is it? I don't honestly know how to answer that question. I suppose you could say that marrying a rebellious girl would be a form of punishment. Most girls want to get married anyway and we are taught placement marriage as a fundamental principle so the assigned marriage I don't consider as a punishment. I won't deny that some girls were married to try to help them settle down. My information indicates that it was usually by request of the parents to try to save their child. Both of the previuos leaders to warren tried this a number of times and in nearly every case it turned out a disaster. They both came to the same conclusion; that young marriages do not work. Both decried the young marriages. For the reward part, yes of course if a girl is faithful she will get more attention at the hands of the leadership. Isn't that true in other religions as well? I don't mean to say that a faithful girl will get married any younger than one that is rebellious or vice versa. In my experience I can't say one or the other is more often the case. I knew girls considered faithful that wanted to get married at 16 and the parents and leaders put it off until they were almost 20. I know some faithful girls that were married to rebellious boys. Sometimes the marriage stuck and other times it did not. For these reasons I can't say that the punishment/reward idea is correct. For the rest of it, you have the basic idea.
It will be interesting to see what happens here. Either the parentage will be established or the parents will lose all chances of getting the children back. It would be very sad to see the fathers abandon their families. (I don't know a better way to say it, although from the incrimination point of view it may not be seen as abondonment as they will likely lose them in either case if the mother is underage.) I too would like to know just how accurate the DNA testing is when you are dealing with families so genetically close.
I guess in any case it's going to be interesting to see how it all filters down so-to-speak. The DNA testing might just be a pandoras box. It would be sad to see fathers abandon their families, though it may be the only thing they think they can do .... it may end up implicating them too much in some cases. Then what happens to the women, and children? I don't know if this has already come up, but how many IF any on the El Dorado compound are on welfare? I keep seeing this brought up over, and over, in mainstream news, but I thought it was mostly some in CC/Hildale, etc. Certainly not ALL FLDS are on public assistance? I would imagine that if they could match any on the YFZ ranch to public assistance that it would not fare well for them. It looks to me that they are a self sustainable community .... is this true? TWR
Daughter of Scotland said: May we, as a nation, repent and turn back to the God of the Bible
I hope everyone here realizes that the God of the Christian Bible is NOT the same god of the FLDS or LDS. Christians do not believe that god was a man exalted from a place or from near a place called Kolob. Just one of the many IMPORTANT theological differences between Christians and FLDS or anyone Mormon.
I do think CPS had the right to remove EVERY child from that compound. The community is as one large family, so it's difficult to separate individual family units. Therefore, all children within that family are in danger. Children are valued in a strange way within the walls of that compound. I think their parents prize them for the most part, but I do not think the parents put the children's interests over the men's interest. . . how many wives and children these men have is a power trip for them. Daughter of Scotland, do you understand this?
I've been hearing for the past couple of days that there are 2-3 confirmed cases of pregnant girls under 17 WITHIN the 416 children now in Texas State custody. If so, that may be the state's basis for retaining custody. Does anyone have any info on this??
Odd question .... I'd like to know from someone in Texas how Eldorado is pronounced. Is it a hard A in EldarAdo, or is it an ahhhhhhh, as in Eldorahhhhhhdo? I know ... silly ?, but I keep hearing the hard A, and my brain wants to say it the other way. Just wonder what you in Texas say? Thanks!
I am NOT LDS I am NOT a polygamist..however I feel compelled as a mother & grandmother to comment and offer what small amount of support I can regarding the recent raids in Texas. If these allegations were made on my street? Would the family involved be investigated or would law enforcement swoop in and remove ALL children from ALL families on the block? In the whole city? This is the epitome of being persecuted for your beliefs. Period. They are no longer investigating allegations of abuse but are now stuck in the quagmire of dealing with their overzealous actions. To say there was "probable cause"? maybe...sure, it has to be investigated...children MUST be protected at all costs. But to remove all of the children from their families? and under these traumatic circumstances?? Shame on the powers the be for allowing this! How can they be screaming about children being married off at 16 (as some of the records indicate) when most states allow marriage at this age with parental consent. To say I am confused by the hypocracy is a gross understatement. In an era that has homosexuals beating the rest of us in society over the head to "accept" their behavior and "lifestyle choices"?? Where our children are taught "tolerance" of all beliefs and cultures? What am I missing??? Who decides what is worthy of being "tolerated"?? In my humble opinion, it is little wonder the members of the FLDS church seem "clannish" and "hide out" The "Normal" outsiders..and I use the word loosely, contaminate the air these otherwise good and God fearing people breathe. It is my fervent prayer that this fiasco blows up in the face of the officials in Texas...that more parents and fellow human beings come to support these families who have had their children stolen away without just cause and denied due process....that it will somehow all be worth it in the end...that the travesties and injustices done will backfire and allow ALL plural marriage families to stop living in the dark with fear of being criminalized. Shame on you Texas.
I hope someone in the FLDS will challenge me if I am wrong. From the information I am able to gather from the few members that will speak to me still the folks in YFZ are NOT on welfare. However they are not self-sustaining either. They are being supported by those members that are not in YFZ. The most faithful are allowed to gather there. The tremendous effort that has been put into building up the YFZ has been accomplished throught the labors of hundreds of members and their contributions. There is nothing coming out of YFZ that could support the huge building effort that has taken place there. On the issue of welfare I would like to note that while the members at the YFZ are not on welfare to my knowledge many of those members who are sending funds to YFZ are on WIC, Medicare, food stamps and other welfare programs. So while they in YFZ are not directly on welfare themselves (as far as I know) they are benefitting indirectly from the system.
I'm sure you will remember how to pronounce Eldorado - not like the caddy, but a hard 'a' sound like Raid. El duh raid doh - These could also each be used as one word sentences in that area.
As far as the 2-3 girls in custody who are teenagers and pregnant, I've come across two different numbers. On Friday, one of the press releases stated that there were 20 teen pregnancies (and I believe that included past and present). Greta Van Susteren said that there were allegedly only about 5 people who appeared to have been abused. If that's the case, we are talking about somewhere between 1% and maybe a little under 5% of the child population. That's actually very low, compared to the rest of society.
As far as welfare goes, there are a couple of ways to remedy this. One, you reduce the amount of excessive welfare programs which we have. Two, you do what (believe it or not) anti-polygamist have recommended: you legalize polygamy. That way, men are forced to marry the women they are with, and those women are not able to collect welfare as single mothers. It certainly seems to have at least some logic. Besides, wasn't our country founded on the principal of Separation of Church and State? Doesn't outlawing polygamy contradict that? Seems Unconstitutional to me.
Oh, one last thing. And this may be the most uncomfortable fact for all of us to face.
Believe it or not, until very recently, children could marry as young as 14, with parental consent. I am referencing Texas Law, not FLDS practice.
It was actually State Representative Harvey Hildebran who led the push to get the legal age raised from 14 to 16 in order to criminalize the YFZ Ranch.
I'm not saying that I condone children being able to marry at Age 14. I was quite surprised at that law. But to have that law on the books for years, doing nothing about it, and then get it changed for the sole purpose of criminalizing a group and aiding an effort to create probable cause is, to me, immoral, reprehensible, unethical, and a travesty of justice. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing him brought up on criminal charges.
I think a good lawyer can not only get the kids back, but the damages in $ terms from the state of texas will be huge. One can take it all the way to the Hague. Most famous precedent is the Australian Aboriginals case in the 60's
I have been interested in this subject for some time. Indeed, there are many "abuses" that occur to both women and children across our nation, and child protection advocates remove children every day. To me, the situation of these families is every bit as tragic. Yes, the little children seem happy and are physically well cared for. BUT once a sweet little girl reaches puberty, she (with no choice in the matter) will be coerced into an arranged marriage against her will with a man who may be decades older than she is. She could be one of many wives. She is then subjugated into the life of a "baby making machine". Her protective mother can be of no assistance to her now. Both mother and daughter have been programmed into believing that their very salvation is at stake if they don't "do as they are told". As for the boys, there have been multiple stories about the "lost boys" --young men who are cast out due to some "major infraction" such as flirting with a girl of this own age. Again, mama has no ability to help this boy (ill-equipped as he is to make it on his own). He is (it would seem) competition to those older men looking for more wives.
I do not want to judge, but I do want to say to these women and children. The world is alot bigger place than you have been led to believe. Indeed, there is much evil and sin in the world, but not all of us lead lives like that. I have been married to the same man for 20 years and have 2 wonderful children who excel in school aren't involved in drugs, sexual promiscuity or other such activities. We are a strong, cohesive family unit that supports and respects one another. I wish only the best for these women and for their children!!! We have to be discerning in our religious beliefs because when they allow one faction of society to trample on the rights of others it is abusive! May they find a church community that lifts them up and does not tear them down or tear them apart from their loved ones.
Wait ... so you think that if we leagalize polygamy the FLDS men will suddenly marry each of their wives? I don't think so ... why should they? Don't they already have a sacred, spiritual union? I could care less how many wives a man chooses to take, so making it legal sounds fine to me. However I highly doubt it will stop abuse of the public assistance programs. As I understand it, the women in cc who are on food stamps, etc. claim their husbands have abandoned them, and they don't know where to find them ... how do you prove they're lying? And how would legalizing polygamy help that situation at all? TWR
There is an assumption that children of polygamy are being abused, but where is the evidence? None has been presented so far. There are ghettos full of teenage mothers but who is taking them into state custody? Does anyone even care about them? A few years ago I saw an Oprah show where she had a 15 year old girl on the show who had four children. Then she brought on a pregnant 11 year old who had an 18 year old boyfriend. No one had removed these clearly endangered children from their homes and there are hundreds of thousands like them. Yet with one phonecall which now appears to have come from a sick 33 year old woman, over 400 children are traumatized by being dragged from their homes and families.
It is nonsense to claim this is about protecting children! This is about endless public pressure to find out what was going on inside the ranch. This is about public curiosity. This is about documentaries being made on the evidence of a disgruntled few who chose to leave. Those who leave are always disgruntled. This is about Dr. Phil having the "two Fawns" on his show and sending his son over to the ranch to try to get in. This is not about protecting children. The children are in more danger now than they have ever been. Foster homes and institutional settings are rife with sexual and physical abuse. Did anyone read the CNN news story about the number of sex offenders living in home daycare and foster home settings?
The children of YFZ are in danger but not from their families. They are in danger from their state.
FROM ABOVE: "PLEASE NOTE THAT IF A PERSON IS RECEIVING ANY GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE YOU THEN MUST OBEY THE LAW JUST AS ALL THE OTHERS DO AND POLYGAMY IS AGAINST THE LAW, AS THE MEN OF THAT WORLD KNOWS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT BY THE SIDE OF THE WOMEN"
First of all. They are not legally married to more than one woman. So, that isn't breaking the law. Secondly the men are not by their side because the government will not allow them to be.
So are we going to drug test everyone one welfare? Because I promise you there are some other people on welfare breaking a law. Why don't we just start by making sure people on government aid actually need aid.
And, if we are going to question who the father of every 14 - 18 year's old child. Then we should start in the high schools. Because, after those kids are born their dad rarely helps support them. And, frequently those girls don't even know who the father of their baby is.
If you think this is not violating the FLDS people's civil rights then...prepare yourselves to be invaded by the government. Everytime your neighbor breaks the law prepare to get arrested also. And, I hope your family are all good people, becuase if they beat their kids, yours are going to go to CPS too.
Laws are changed and tightened up in the face of specific problematic situations all the time. Look at all the new laws created just because of the Internet alone. The 14 age limit was low, but it wasn't really a problem until Warren's gang showed up. ....nothing wrong in fixen' it.
Has anyone heard of the 8yr old girl from Yemen granted divorce? This child was forced into arranged marriage by her Parents, and raped and beaten by her husband, then sought out an attorney on her own! Amazing! Would the FDLS supporters also think this situation was OK, just because its the "norm" in other cultures? the practices of the FDLS *regarding Sexual activity with minors* is unacceptable. I'm glad authorities have stepped in!
One morning I watched the coverage on the FLDS The caption on the top of the screen read"Oh those dressess, look at those hair doos" I flipped the channel to the catholic mass coverage and I saw all these strangly dressed men in colorful floor length dresses and strange hats circled around the Pope. These Catholics publicly proclaming that they have had a problem for years of sexual abuse in their places of worship, yet the State of Texas chooses this small strange group of unwanted guests to persecute. Why?? I wish these mothers would dress professionally for these court cases for their children. Why not a dress suit, nice skirt, blouse and jacket? They dressed professionally like that back in the CC acadamy.
You know in all likelihood, neither "side" in this issue is "right". There is a chance that there is abuse that goes on at YFZ that is tolerated or even condoned that needs to be stopped. There is also a good chance that the Texas government is heavy handed and that law enforcement and the justice system itself is flawed and in some ways abusive.
Does one have to really side with either side here?
I think there are a few items about this case which we could all gain from thinking over carefully.
One, I think that everyone in this blog trail agrees that we don't want to see any person or child raped or physically abused.
I certainly agree with the necessity for CPS or an equivalent entity to investigate potential abuses.
However, this has been a complete violation of standard operating procedure. A recorded call was not made to 911 (also, have we all noticed that many of these children and mothers had cell phones IN the compound, but had them taken AWAY once they were IN the state's custody?), but was made to Jessop, a woman sympathetic to potential FLDS abuses. Even she thought the circumstances were very questionable. But the authorities ignored all red flags, as they had been waiting for an opportunity to jump in there.
Once inside, not only were they unable to locate this alleged "Sarah", but their justification for obtaining a warrant for all 416 children was that they saw approximately 20 teenage girls pregnant. Well, to the point made above, does that mean we go into every inner city, every small town, every suburban neighborhood, every bayou, and every Southern forest and abduct all teenage moms, as well?
Why did armed SWAT teams need to forcibly invade a community and tear a quiet community apart? CPS could have conducted a full, audited, overseen investigation without disrupting the families or the community.
Instead, as mentioned above, this WAS about headlines. We're in an election year. We have people like Greg Abbott and Harvey Hildebran trying to make names for themselves and trying to gather support. We're making a spectacle of people who are different.
Can anyone tell me about the practices of the Amish, and I am asking this in ALL sincerity. I think most of us have a pretty positive impression of them. However, if we found out yesterday that teens were marrying and expected to have 6 or 8 children, would we change our opinions of them? Would we raid them? Actually, I guess we don't have to raid them. One of our serial killers did a great job of invading one of their communities very recently. So maybe we shouldn't be so quick to assume we have "the right way", when our "free" society is producing serial killers and foster families who beat and rape.
I know that, to a lot of us, and probably to a lot of the CPS workers and police involved, this raid "felt" like the right thing to do. But it was pretty arrogant and pretty Orwellian. It kind of reminds me of the very beginnings of the Holocaust in Nazi Germany.
Now, one last thing. Before we immediately condemn very young marriages and years and years of back-to-back births, I'd like to share a story with everyone. I was recently involved in setting up a small convention center for a meeting. I noticed one young girl take control of a group of women, organizing a "labeling" of chairs for the following day. The 7 or 8 women around her were all older, and almost none of them knew her. Yet, she easily and comfortably took leadership and got everything organized and running smoothly. She did this without ego and without being a bully. I pointed this out to a parent, not realizing he knew her. He told me that she was the oldest of 16 children. He said the family was very organized, very efficient, and each child had a special talent or area of expertise.
So, before we condemn families or communities who are different, let's figure out if maybe we can learn from them, and not just judge or ramrod them. Please.
Most all Mormons have their Prophets Picture on their the walls to. I see the Pope on Catholic walls. I even see George Bush on peoples was. You can hang a picture on any wall you choose. If I want to hang a picture of a witch named Caroline I will. I think that is a good Idea. Just a thought though I decided not to give her the time of day. She will so be dispised by those who flatter her. Watch and See.
Can someone please tell me how the FLDS at the Yearning for Zion Ranch bury their dead. I have heard reports of a creamtorium being used in the Temple for such a purpose.
Speaking of the Pope, let's not forget what most of his current headlines have centered around: physical and sexual abuse of young children by priests and bishops.
Maybe we shouldn't be too quick to judge FLDS or to rush them into our own system?
Anon 4:31: The point I was making about the pictures:
Some have wondered if Warren's "resignation" means he isn't the prophet anymore. Not so among his faithful in YFZ. He seems to be hanging on every wall. I think I would rather see the witch.
On another blog post you indicated you were new to the whole FLDS story. Perhaps it explains some of the opposition you are getting here. The FLDS in Texas have a history of deceit with the governing authority. They have continued this pattern in the recent trouble they are having. If you take into consideration the whole warren jeffs fiasco and the fact that these people still hold him as their spiritual leader it may explain some of the actions of the authorities. Had this been done, as many have suggested, and an investigation proceeded without the numbres of officers,sealing off the perimeter, removing all of the children, holding the men 'prisoners' for several days and such most likely there would have been no one to investigate as they would have disappeared rather than face those appointed to enforce the law. Even the local sheriff stated that although he thought he was on good terms with the Bishop at YFZ he discovered that he had been lied to about many things.
I know very little about Texas law. There are indications that the officials have followed the law very close and are justified by state law in their course of action. Whether this is the case or not remains to be seen and I suppose will come out in court as the alleged perpetrators challenge the proceedings. Perhaps in some cases Texas law will be proven to be unconstitutional. All of this will come out in the coming judicial firestorm. This is far from over.
Having observed this play for the past several years I can sympathize in a large manner with the authorities. I don't know how else they could really handle this. If the citizens of YFZ had not established this pattern of deceit and disregard for the law and interests of their neighbors I would be as shocked and indignant as anyone. I truly believe that if they had not followed a course that estabished this reputation the law would have handled it in a manner far different than the existing mess. Everyone here is a loser; law enforcement, alleged perpetrators, taxpayers, citizens rights, and most of all the children involved. There will be no winners in this battle.
There was also a call placed to authorities. This "Sarah" just happened to be talking to Flora Jessop, who contacted authorities because she suspected it was a hoax. They (she and the authorities) pieced it together from there.
Again, this isn't about large families and different lifestyles (for the record, I come from a pretty large family myself). I lived in a large city and I have seen some things! I think this country is pretty good at being diverse. It's about abuse.
Please reserve your judgement towards the authorities until this all unfolds. Believe me, we haven't even begun to scratch the surface.
Since you're so interested in this (as we all are), why not take some time to read what those who have left have written? Their words can offer some interesting insight to this whole situation.
fttc, are you out there? If so, can you reccommend a good reference for George? I've read "The Polygamists" (Bistline?) and I'm reading "Escape" (Caroline Jessop). I realize many people try to discredit things that "exes" say, but I think their perspective has a valuable place in this discussion. Unfortunately, it's pretty tough to find books written by folks on the inside.
Just a thought--Won't DNA also give hope to those who were sent away [banished?] and had their families then reassigned to other men? To me, that's the same as kidnapping...but I won't go there at this point. DNA will not only tell who's related to who..but who SHOULD be with who. Maybe the families who left or were sent away can now get their children back..? I am sure this must be terribly scarey and confusing for the children,but DNA should solve a lot of unanswered questions. --MC--
I agree with fttc. The lack of trust really explains the actions of law enforcement here.
On a somewhat related note, I received an email from an acquaintance on the inside of the situation at the beginning of the "raid". One of the things shared was that there were tunnels underneath the "dorms". The law enforcement would think they had all of the women and children, then would go back in a few hours later and find a hundred more! Upon further investigation, they discovered these underground passages. Can anyone confirm this?
While we agree in principle that the allegations and any crimes need to be investigated, I am really hearing a lot of "ends justifies the means" from you.
Leaders of the compound being dishonest does not entitle anyone to waive their Constitutional rights. A President lying to the people of the United States does not waive his right to a fair trial, or even to a legal arrest.
The State has not followed the law, in this case. They have violated both State and Federal procedures. And I am not content to place blind faith in the system that the "truth will come out". The only way that justice will be done is if enough people speak out.
Heck, if the lawyers representing these children are terrified that they will not be able to adequately represent the children and serve their legal needs, then we sure as heck need to be concerned. It's bad enough to keep the children away from parents who may potentially be abusing them, but to keep those children's very lawyers at bay? That just does NOT add up.
I'm telling everyone. Look PAST the FLDS. Put yourself in their position. I am not saying to see things their way. I am not saying to adopt their beliefs. But play devil's advocate (no pun intended). Imagine if you were part of a community within a community, and that your way of life had been singled out. Wouldn't you want the protection of the Constitution of the United States? If the State or Federal Government is given the impression that it can bend the rules based on the public support of their witch hunt, then they will continue to do it in other areas.
Given the current publicity level of this case, I think we can all rest assured that no abused children will be returned to abused families. But we can't go guardrail to guardrail. We can't be so overzealous that we get the good families broken up; we can't get the innocent children of good families sent into foster homes, which could create even bigger problems than the ones which the State claims to be addressing.
This case has progressed far enough that any true abusers will now be caught in the spotlight. But now it's time to protect the innocent and to protect the Constitution, and the U.S. way of life. Let's not let ourselves be destroyed by Salem Witch Trials.
You know very well that their was other ways to do it. Your as bad as them in doing what they did. They simply were looking for an "in" and they took it, and if it wasn't totally fabricated by CPS, then it was by Flora, Rozita Swinton is just a pawn in the whole thing. Your venom is obvious as you keep defending the flagrant violations of civil liberties, and constitutional rights. I hope you never do something that someone doesn't like.
Sorry to bug you again, but one other thing stuck out to me in your 3:33 post.
You were saying that foster families beat and rape. That seems a pretty unfair generalization. Not to mention the fact that it adds to any hysteria the FLDS people are feeling about the future of their situation.
I keep reading here, and seeing on other blogs and articles, the term "keep sweet". The more I read it the more it comes across as a sort of "veiled threat", for lack of a better term. All the women/girls are taught to "keep sweet". To me that translates in to...do as you are told...remember your place...don't make waves...DONT EVER disagree with a male...have no opinion but what your husband tell you it should be. I am sure others can argue that it's more a mantra of how to be pure to God and obliging to your husband. I was brought up to be independant,with a willful mind of my own and to express myself with my own opinions. So, this idea of "keeping sweet" is very foreign to me.
Just a thought. Even though I think these FLDS brought this disaster on themselves by lying, I have wondered if this isn't just a trial by the government to see what would happen and maybe get our minds on something else besides the major disaster that is about to crash on our beloved country. There are rumors of concentration camps in remote areas of the United States, and if the government wanted to swoop down on whoever didn't agree with them, how far could they get? Just a thought that occured when george dewey mentioned the holocaust.
It is nice to hear from the few people who still have a heart.
Recently a father was arrested for murdering his 3 small children. Isn't it odd that all the little kids in that small town weren't taken into custody. There certainly was more chance of something terrible happening to them than to the 400+ young people being held hostage in Texas.
I once held that State in high regard. I think its halo has slipped. To send brainwashed,(men and women who are afraid to act or think for themselves for fear of losing a paycheck)armed officers in there to tear tiny, frightened children from the arms of the only people who deeply love and really care about them simply because of the rumors floating around seems pretty cowardly.
It is also likely that many of the cell phones taken from the ladies and children were cameras with evidence that officers or child workers didn't want to get out.
The children will never again have any faith in the so called justice system. Nor should the rest of us. If that can happen to them it can happen to anyone--absolutely anyone.
I've spent the last few days reading this cite and want to thank those of you who are clarifying things for those of us just learning about the FLDS.
The LDS church seems to be concentrating on its own PR during this scandal. I wonder if LDS church could get a much better impression into the media if they would ask what they could do to help the victims of the FLDS scandal, show a stong presence, rather than trying so hard to separate themselves. I also wonder what the LDS church leaders mean when they say the FLDS branch is "not Morman." Why is this? There are so many volunteers helping out; where are organized Morman volunteers? What are the LDS doing to help these victimized by the FLDS?
Please listen to what I am saying instead of what you want me to be saying. If you can convince anyone that I am venomous it kind of discredits anything I say doesn't it? What I said was that I can sympathize with the way law enforcement handled this when I look at the larger picture of the FLDS history in Texas. I do know there were other ways to handle it. Hindsight is always 20/20. I am sure that in retrospect the sheriff and state authorities can see what they might do different next time. Every incident law enforcement has teaches them something or they are not doing their job. Waco keeps coming up here and I am sure it was on the minds of many if not all of the officers involved. The Eldorado Success interview with the sheriff showed that he was thinking about Waco and it had an influence on his decisions. I am not necessarily defending the actions of the state. I don't have enough information to do that. My own opinion is that the state yet has some issues they will be called on the carpet for. Whether they are within the bounds of the law or not remains to be seen.
The real point that I made was the disintegrity of the FLDS in Texas and I noticed that you did not address that.
Sheriff Doran in the Success interview denied the existence of tunnels.
I would read the ex-FLDS accounts for what they are; the personal story of one individual. I have not seen the book by Jessop. I have read the one by Bistline and I know there are inaccuracies in it as there would be if I wrote a book about the same topic. We all see from our own little window so keep an open mind and realize that they don't speak for everyone and their experience is unique as everyone's is.
I can't help with any reading material from the other side. A person can possibly obtain some of the discourses and such but even they are hard to understand unless you know a lot of the history. Authors and journalists have dissected and parsed them in the past without coming to accurate conclusions.
It looks like the truth is slowly going to come to light as long as it isn't burried. Flora created this entire fiasco so she can be the savior for these women and children. Thank you Flora, I hope you like the spotlight so much that it justifies over 400 children being pulled from their home.
The FLDS believe that the Mormons are vile apostates and they teach their children this. Do you really think linking up these mothers and children with "wicked" Mormons are the best thing to do?
Also, I think the Mormons have to be careful. Many FLDS believe the Mormons have been in league with authorities over the years to destroy them. What would it look like if the Mormons linked up with Texas CPS, etc. Pitting Church against Church is not the answer. Depite what anyone thinks of the Mormons, I think they are wise to keep hands off this one.
I can't help with any reading material from the other side. (meaning from inside FLDS) fttc, I think you will agree, that if anyone on the inside did write a book,it would be so strongly edited by Warren and friends, that it would be unreliable, or the author would no longer be "on the inside".
Of course the State has a mandate to protect us from ourselves and each other. That's the good thing about government. That's most of the reason why governments exist. If you want to go live somewhere where the state DOESN'T have this mandate, go to Rwanda or Darfur. Go check out some place where the state doesn't have an obligation to protect you and, if you survive, come back and give your opinion.
There are many ineffective governments out there with much larger problems than polygamist ranches. There are some places in the world where the United States yearly murder rate is their murder rate on a daily basis. Atrocities that you would only see in horror movies take place there on a daily basis. I'm assuming you don't live in any of these places, so be glad that you have this protection.
And no, it does not make us property of the state. If you don't like the laws of where you live, either change them or go somewhere that's more favorable to you. And I doubt there's going to be much support in making polygamy and underage sex legal.
If polygamy is legal there would absolutely be a decrease in abuse. It is not all alleged. Not nearly what the media is throwing around of late but there is abuse. The abuse is largely because it is a closed community. Look into ANY closed community, regardless of local or religion, and you'll find it.
The reason polygamy should be legal is two-fold. One, because it is practiced for religion and harms NO one if practiced by consenting adults. Two, because the public interest would be served in having OPEN and fully-participating members of our community. Abuse of both children and welfare would go down dramatically. Ask any economist or social worker.
".....this has been a complete violation of standard operating procedure. A recorded call was not made to 911 (but was made to Jessop, a woman sympathetic to potential FLDS abuses. Even she thought the circumstances were very questionable. But the authorities ignored all red flags, as they had been waiting for an opportunity to jump in there."
Doesn't matter. The police felt that they had a credible complaint and it's their job to act on it but... It's NOT their decision. That's up to a Judge. Once the Judge says OK...it's game on that's how the system is supposed to work
"..but their justification for obtaining a warrant for all 416 children was that they saw approximately 20 teenage girls pregnant..."
again, the police can scream all they want but... without a Judge, they can't do anything they only reported back what they observed and even then they still had no right to take anyone that's CPS's job apparently they did their job correctly or the Judge would have sent the kids right back
"...We're in an election year. We have people like Greg Abbott and Harvey Hildebran trying to make names for themselves..."?
that's absurd. history has proven these people are political suicide
"...Why did armed SWAT teams need to forcibly invade a community and tear a quiet community apart? ...."
One word....Waco
oh and BTW it's NOT a community it's a compound ...deal with it
if this happened anywhere else the Amish, the Park or even CC? (before warren made everyone build all those fences) they would have simply walked up and.... knocked on the door
The reports on this mornings news said they are holding several girls who claim to be 18 but are unable to prove their ages (no birth certificates to be found). I attend church with a young woman who LOOKS like she is about 12 years old. She is actually 20 years old. These young women have never worn makeup, never chemically treated their hair, etc. It's very conceivable they would look younger than their actual ages.
If neither they nor the state can prove their ages what then? If they are children who were abused they need to be where they are but if they are indeed legal adults then CPS has no jurisdiction over them and they are being held by the government without due process. What a kettle of fish!
The news did not say how many were claiming to be 18 and how many were either documented or admittedly underaged. I would have been interested to know that.
As an interesting side note is some of them apparently hold ID cards but CPS suspects those might be fake. I dispatched for a county sheriff's office and determining if an ID card is real or fake takes about 30 seconds at the DMV terminal. They've had the girls in custody for a couple of weeks so they've had plenty of time to determine for certain if their ID cards are legit or not. Things that make you go "hmmm".
I keep seeing where these women are kept as virtual prisoners and kept from having contact the "outside", etc. but then I read where their CELL PHONES were taken away from them.
You want me to address the confusion of a lot of people who are scared to death of the armed force closing in upon them? C'mon dude, you have a brain, I would like to see you in the same situation, stand there all real cool like and answer every question without an error. There was many many people there, and I'm sure they were so confused they didn't know which end was up. You ask 416 little children the same question, I promise you'll get 416 different answers, if you don't know that, then you must not have kids. Furthermore, you've been taught that this army is coming to take away your rights, they are your enemy, don't tell me your not scared $hitless!! You have many men and women on that ranch, I'm sure they don't know all the children of the other families. I don't even know them all in my little circle of relatives. I don't think you consider the duress they were under. And as far as the ladies looking like zombies on TV, what the hell do you expect, they are crying for their dear little ones, they have been through something that should mortify anyone with half a brain. Let's see you go though the same experience and get up there and just be Joe Cool. Hell, do you people have half a clue what they are going through? I'm a Father, not even a mother, and I can't fathom the grief and pain. I pray that God will execute justice, on abusers if there was any, and on the once great state of Texas that has given United States of America the blackest eye that can be imagined. FTTC you have my answer!!
"To send brainwashed,(men and women who are afraid to act or think for themselves for fear of losing a paycheck)armed officers"..........most police officers do it to help people, not for the money......
"The real point that I made was the disintegrity of the FLDS in Texas and I noticed that you did not address that."
It was addressed to you, I know you have a brain, your posts bear that out, I just think you are prejudiced too much. I don't know what I would do under the same circumstances, and I don't think you do either, I feel it is heartless, and I'm speaking from my heart, cause I fathom pain and agony at losing those I love, I've been through it, have you? I doubt it due to your apathetic responses here. I don't think the raid was justified, I think they could have handled it much better, and totally different, I suspect that the Ex-FLDS'er are behind or at least a impetus in it, and I hate the loss of civil liberties for anyone. I know our Constitutions authors are rolling in their graves.
“Excuse us Texans for being a little bent out of shape about this whole thing. Texas is part of the Bible belt and Mormonism is strange enough to most of us. Add the FLDS twist and it's a recipe for outrage.”
First of all, Mormons usually means Latter Day Saints (LDS) are not the same as this group, which I think you recognize but others may not. The compound is of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), a different religion. The LDS “Mormons” are based in Salt Lake City Utah and do not practice polygamy. While the two churches have the same roots (Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon), they are VERY different today on many points of doctrine but chiefly polygamy. Both the FLDS and the LDS do also believe the Bible is the word of God and both are Christians (they worship Christ as the Messiah) as I’m assuming most of the Bible belt does. For info on “Mormons” visit www.LDS.org. I don’t know what to tell you for definitive answers on FLDS beliefs. Even though I have insider information I cannot say that I understand and so much has changed since Warran Jeffs took the helm making the doctrine even more difficult to sort out. I do find far more similarities than differences with mainstream Christians.
I know everyone’s time is limited and you are definitely at a disadvantage since you may not understand the FLDS (or LDS for that matter) culture. But, the best I can tell you is that you will find far more similarities than differences in what you believe if you will educate yourself. Additionally, and this has been hard for me, you have to get educated about FLDS assuming you will NEVER be FLDS. That helps squelch the fear you might feel if you are looking at it as even the remote possibility that your church would take on these practices. Hate is Fear turned inside out and visa versa. Just because you don’t agree or understand is not a permission slip to assume evil behavior.
Once again, you have no evidence that “they” are taking advantage of your fair state.
Additionally, there is NO REASON to pay child support. That would imply that the families are divorced. In point of fact these men are to actually acknowledge, raise and support their children. This is a requirement of the doctrine. I know it’s hard to believe because you’ll probably assume that there are far too many kids for the Fathers to care for. It’s a different family relationship altogether so don't try make the hours-in-the-day test work; it won't. Your standards of what Father should do and must do would not apply here largely because they live the “United Order”. That order requires that the community share all that they have, their time talents and resources.
That economic model is something we do not practice or understand. The “United Order” also has an absolute self-sufficiency requirement; they are not to trade with the Gentiles (everyone but themselves). So, when they seek state assistance they are not living up to the Order themselves. No one is perfect.
I agree that there has been terrible abuse of the state by SOME people practicing polygamy but that happens in every town doesn’t it?
Won't accept certified birth certificates here, but they were good for 8 men accused in Arizona. What? You need birth videos time stamped? Give me a break. This is a vindicative pre-planned fiasco that has been in the making for 4 years now. Sheriff Doran will not have any trust any longer, and these people will go underground ever further, and yes, I'm positive it was foretold by the leaders, so it's just affirmation in their minds that they are doing the will of God. I can't believe after all our supposed enlightenment and superior civics, that we still resort to this garbage.
“…And if you don't like our government move to Mexico or Iraq. Stop complaining. I love my country and our laws.”
If you love your country and your laws you had better be madder than a wet hen. Your laws, and mine, are under attack. There is no due process here! The little CFS Napoleons just took over. Just because there is a crank call your entire neighborhood can be picked up and taken to a compound of a different sort. Still, I’m far more afraid of people like you that think this is a good idea. Lord help us all.
Why not just voted State Representative Harvey Hildebran out of office with a wave and smile?
Then again, you can thank Utah's very own Attorney General Mark Shurtleff for making the trip to Texas to show the error of their ways and get that law passed. AG Shurtleff IS up for re-election. Hope he loses over this !
October 27, 1838 Governor Boggs of Missouri issued an "extermination order" legalizing the murder of Mormons in Missouri. Under that order there were many murders committed and entire settlements were invaded & burned while men, women and children were massacred. That extermination order stayed on the books in Missouri until 1976.
This group is a splinter/renegade group of the original Mormons so their history includes the state condoned murder of their ancestors.
There is still debate about whether it was the davidians or the government who were the agressors at Waco if you want a more modern example.
These people's mistrust of the government and of the society who blindly follows government mandate seems reasonable given their history.
The posts seem to find fault with their separatist lifestyle and belief that others outside their group are not to be trusted. Seems like they have good reason to feel like they do.
Leadership of the FLDS shunned outside interference from the law and other law-abiding citizens because they didn't want to be held accountable for what they were doing....which was against the law.
To those of you concerned about their civil liberties, where have you been all this time that the women have been treated like cattle and threatened with physical and emotional abuse by the men within the group?
Funny how none of the men are making tearful pleas to have their children returned. No worries - they can always make more.
Somehow we are not on the same page. Where does my prejudice lay? I have relatives involved in this raid that I love dearly. I have in no way given my approval for what has happened. Apparently I must know something about this that you don't know and don't wish to understand really. Maybe apathy was the incorrect word for you to use, I will concede that, but I don't believe my participation on this blog reflects an apathetic attitude. We have two extremes expressed on this blog. One is saying to leave them alone and the other is saying destroy them. I am trying to keep this debate reasonable. Both sides are getting things wrong and I have tried to correct them both. Go to the other threads on the blog and read my entries and see if I am not correct.
I have said for years now that the young marriages need to stop. Children need to be children and learn and grow without being saddled unecessarily with reponsibilities that belong to more mature persons. I don't agree with my relatives involved but it doesn't mean I don't love them. My heart aches for what they are enduring now. At the same time they are suffering the consequences of what I think are very unwise decisions. What can I do? If I follow your advice I defend them in something that goes contrary to my own principles. If I applaud the state of Texas I betray those I love. I really can't do either one can I? Reality and justice lie somewhere out in the middle between the extremes named above.
Some call it 'tough love'. You let others make their own decisions and then let them live with the consequences.
"To those of you concerned about their civil liberties, where have you been all this time that the women have been treated like cattle and threatened with physical and emotional abuse by the men within the group?
Funny how none of the men are making tearful pleas to have their children returned. No worries - they can always make more. "
fttc: There is another school of thought that is calling for due process and the prosecution of ONLY the people involved with crime(s) if any. To date there are no charges so the state must return these children immediately.
That fact does not prevent you and I from continuing to work for the prevention of abuse in this closed culture and we both probably have ideas about how to do that. The disaster here is that the state oversteped the bounds of reason and totally violated the constitution. So, many people who don't care about the FLDS one way or another ought to be terrified of the State of Texas and another other state that thinks this is cute or acceptable behavior. Once again, stick to the facts. Was there a crime or wasn't there? If the answer is "no" these kids must go home. The state cannot keep them if they think there might be a crime later.
Maybe FLDS will be more willing to accept ideas now but not from the state! There is a space between apathy and hate and that is where we (you, I and others) will find actual progress.
"We have two extremes expressed on this blog. One is saying to leave them alone and the other is saying destroy them. I am trying to keep this debate reasonable."
Where is your apathy towards the women and children?
You know as well as I do that if they returned those children to their parents there would be nothing to keep them here. They would disappear. In other words, they are a flight risk.
It's a little early to arouse panic and start the battle cry. You don't know any more than the rest of us about the process going on behind closed doors.
A little cooperation would go a long way in getting everyone back to where they belong. Cooperation with the laws of the land and cooperation with authorities with giving information about who belongs to who.
They knowingly broke the law for years and dragged their children into it too. Now everyone is furious that there are consequences. We all have to answer to those same laws. Would it be fair to everyone else if they didn't?
"There is still debate about whether it was the davidians or the government who were the agressors at Waco if you want a more modern example."
Cops show up with a warrant to search compound for illegal automatic weapons, people that run compound dont believe they have to abide by state and federal firearm laws and open fire on police. Thats not an assumption it is shown in the video filmed by the local media.......where is the debate about that? There is none.
Does anybody know if the FLDS dairy operation and other enterprises are solely for their own use or if they generate income with them with outside markets?
The judge decided there was abuse involving children at the compound according to Texas law. The evidence of this was the underage marriages. These actually exist. Had the FLDS members acknowledged that, yes these girls are underage and married to so and so, there would have been charges brought against individuals. How can the perpetrators be charged if they don't know who they are? How can a decision be made as to which children are at risk and which are not? The DNA data is going to enable the charges to be preferred. How else can it be done. The FLDS have already exhibited unwillingness to be honest about it. They have destroyed the chance for the judge to have any confidence in their word to the point that she decided even birth certificates from them were unacceptable.
Perhaps civil liberties are being trampled. If they are someone is likely to be very rich as the FLDS are a litigous group although it is mostly the attorneys that have ended up with the money. I really don't know how I can improve on what is being done.
I find it disgusting that the men involved in the young marriages don't have the courage to stand up and admit to the marriages so the rest of the children can go home. Maybe all of them really are involved. If so they are about to lose all of their children.
There is a new website in circulation .... captiveldschildren.org They are asking for donations to get their children back. Just what they need ... more money. I for one will NOT be sending money.
I am amazed at how many people believe what ever the media says and what ever the CPS says-all before proven guilty. Did you guys never study out constitution? And that stupid tale about the BED- it was a place where members could lie down if they had fasted and the sermon was getting long and they felt faint. They also have them at the regular Mormon church. Such a bunch of crap presented- guilty until proven innocent? And how should the nursing babies be abused? They were looking for a 16 year old- why did they take the whole town?
Well I know what I would do if I saw something developing like that. It took a couple of days for them to take them all... I d dress my kids as normal people and leave my long dress behind, take all the money I could find and walk out of that place thru the woods and have somebody meet me and get the hell out of Texas. I hope some escaped.
I'm a member of the regular Mormon church and have attended congregations in Georgia, Alaska, Washington, Idaho, Oregon, Utah ... several states. I have never seen a bed in any LDS chapel. I've never seen a bed in an LDS temple either. In the regular mormon churches they have couches and arm chairs in the foyers if anyone were to need a comfortable resting place for some reason.
Nobody knows for sure what the bed is to be used for except for those that used it. They are not telling. This may seem vulgar but they reported the bed sheets were "disturbed" and there was a female hair in the bed. Testing the sheets for the presence of bodily fluids would either prove or disprove the allegation that it is used for consumating marriages inside the temple.
Why is it that some of you think you're experts on this whole situation because you watch the evening news?
QUIT RUSHING TO JUDGEMENT!!
If the media changed sides and ran an expose on the FLDS, it would compromise the FLDS victim status and you'd have people jumping the fence all over the place.
If you're all such advocates for the children and those poor women you see on your television sets, why are you so opposed to finding out for sure that they're not being abused? Would you want them returned if they are being physically and/or sexually abused? In many cases you can't have it both ways. They can't be returned to the only life they've every known and also be safe from physical harm.
I realize that not all are being abused, but the FLDS has stonewalled authorities. How can they pick out only those being abused if the "adults" won't even tell who belongs to who and be honest about their ages?
It was all or nothing from the start and that was the decision of the FLDS. They tried to call Texas' bluff and they lost. If you want to be mad at someone about all of the children being in Texas' custody - be mad at their parents. They forced Texas' hand - yes, it bears a lot of similarity to Waco in that respect.
Another thing, has it ever occurred to you that the women returned to the compound rather than stayed with their children out of fear of the men? Has it ever occured to you that the men put the women up to their television appearances? Why wasn't there even ONE man pleading for his childrens' safe return?! If they are innocent of wrong doing, then why the hiding? It reminds me of the criminal heading to court and covering his face with his jacket in shame...just doesn't pass the smell test. If the men aren't guilty of the charges, they'll be exhonorated.
This isn't about religion and their right to practice their faith. It's about whether your right to practice your faith should trample a child's rights to be physically safe.
People keep making statements to the effect of "if it was just one girl complaining why did they take the children of the whole town"?
As far as I can see, that logic doesn't really apply to this situation because the way the ranch is arranged isn't really like a "town" with a bunch of single family homes. It's a handful of homes with many, many people in each. Am I right in this?
"I keep seeing where these women are kept as virtual prisoners and kept from having contact the "outside", etc. but then I read where their CELL PHONES were taken away from them.
Does this seem odd to anybody but me?"
I am appalled. What could possibly be the reason for cutting them off from the world, their support systems and legal counsel? Can anyone help me with this? I am really trying to understand CPS's reasoning here. I know they have a job to do but these "little" matters are not court ordered. They seem to be so darned iron fisted about it all. What are they so afraid of?
The women weren't answering the questions the authorities were asking without running it by their husbands (on the cell phones). The whole reason they were taken off of the ranch was to separate them so they could get some honest answers.
Those in charge knew that as long as they (the women) were allowed to contact their husbands, they would be expected (by their husbands) to do so. This way, the CPS came off as the bad guy when all they were trying to do was get them to answer the questions straight.
This made the adults look even more guilty, wouldn't you say? Whether the women were in on marrying off young teens or just stood by and let it happen, they took part and the men are trying to help them cover their tracks for them.
240 comments:
1 – 200 of 240 Newer› Newest»Anon 9:26
I'll be visiting your hometown shortly to take all of the children into custody because of the actions of a few.
Or does rape and abuse not happen in your town?
I am baffled by what is unfolding on the news. How can CPS possibly justify taking ALL of the children after entering looking for ONE? Property of the state, indeed. This is merely religious persecution until they have proof of real crimes - rather than the gossip and prattle of theoretical wrongs reported by disgruntled neighbors.
If law enforcement is unable to provide proof of real and actual abuse soon I hope to see the YFZ win enough in lawsuits to build themselves a few more temples.
back to civil rights.
you have the right to practice religion but,
you DON'T have to right to practice it ON other people
including and especially ON your own children
they have the right to grow up and chose for themselves
in the environment of CC and the Ranch
they are denied
It's the responsibility of the State to fix this situation
keep sweet texas
stg
Yep, until we are 18 and able to actually vote on those who are in control. Parents in this country, and especially TX, have less and less say over their children and how they are raised.
Children need to be protected from abuse...but REAL abuse, not merely PERCEIVED abuse because some other family does things differently and we don't like their religion or how they dress.
Little Johnny down the street has a mom that is a crack addict and goes to bed hungry most nights since mommy is to strung up to cook him dinner. This is in every neighborhood in America folks. Why hasn't CPS stepped in to take little Johnny away? Thank goodness he gets that lovely government nutritional lunch at school so he doesn't completely starve.
B in TX
I agree with anon 9:26. We would't be a civilized (or caring) society if we turned a blind eye to those kinds of activities.
That is the way this country works. It's not special treatment or predjudice toward the FLDS. We are all accountable under the law...even if you have a large fence around your community.
If you ask me, the government has been very long-suffering with the FLDS group. In Utah and Arizona, the authorities seemed to be somewhat apathetic (corrupt)towards the FLDS, often turning a blind eye. Perhaps many of the folks responsible for administering the law were either FLDS or had relatives within.
Now the group is in Eldorado. They don't have the Texas government in their pockets. As a Texan, I would hope that would never happen.
Does anyone know if the FLDS group in Mexico has had any trouble with the law? Perhaps that would make a better Zion.
Most of us on the outside disagree with polygamy, but child rape and abuse is morally wrong and against the law.
I know those responsible for such conduct will be answering to the Lord, but I also hope they answer to the state of Texas.
The bottom line is the government OWNS YOU.
They will disarm you so that you are kept safe, and so forth.
Orwell was an optimist.
No. We haven't become property of the state. We're just being protected from becoming someone else's property. And others are protected from becoming our property.
Some peopler obviously don't get that they can't own a child or woman.
Emily in NC
I am in favor of harassing and making life miserable for anyone who has sex with a minor, throws the burden of providing for their children on the state and abusing public finance of schools and police departments to further their own ends.
As far as I am concerned the children of ElDorado/YFZ are crying because of what their parents have done not what Texas CPS has done.
We bombed Japan and Germany to preserve our way of life and our culture and consequently children died. I don't blame the military for these innocent deaths and regrettable as they may have been we didn't cause them.
Likewise, I don't blame Texas CPS. I blame the leaders, officers and followers who freely choose a culture destroying way of life. My culture! And guess what!? As painful as this is it isn't death.
Next we'll be overrun with Muslims and African animists who want to have their unique way of life financed by welfare. I draw the line and I am starting with whites in Utah, Arizona and Texas.
We'll never stop polygamy but we need to make child marriage (i.e. rape), and "bleeding the beast" so painful that the gnats and leeches learn how to stop.
GeorgeD
You hit it the nail on the head. The state does seem to think that we are property. Therefore, the State will restrain me if my particular religious beliefs are not on their State sponsored list.
Since the media is also property of the state, truth will be determined by them. If CNN says that all FLDS males are abusers, that must be so. It doesn't matter if there is no evidence to back up their claims.
Perhaps we will be replaced with robots.
Uncaduff,
I respect your viewpoint, but I disagree. If the people of YFZ were following the law, there would be no need to even have this discussion.
You end up as the property of the government when you make choices that any rational person can see ends only in legal trouble.
And really, that's the point. Any rational person could see how this was going to end, from the moment the very first buildings were built on the ranch.
Just my opinion.
Mark
my oh my
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/hotstories/5703058.html
doing the math
100 kids over 4 years old equals
305 kids 4 years old and under
37 mothers told to leave equals
82 mothers of 305 kids all under 5 to stay
YFZ equals "Baby Farm"
only question is how many kids are mothers too?
keep sweet texas
stg
Are you kidding, richard? There are allegations of physical and sexual abuse. That is not a religious issue - it's a human rights issue.
Go Texas!
so, richard. if we become State property by giving the State a mandate to protect us from ourselves and our neighbors, what happens to our liberty if we give the church a mandate to keep us and our neighbors from sin? :>
(I had to ask);)
In Canada the grovenment decided that what goes on in the bedrooms of the nation between concenting adults isn't their business, several states also have this attitude. But children need to be protected in any inviroment.
Is anyone else thinking that maybe the FLDS orchestrated this whole thing?
Isn't it funny that they can't find the girl who came forward and the man she was allegedly married to hasn't been to Texas for years?
Kinda like when you know vomit is coming, so you gag yourself to get it over with.
The way they're manipulating the media over this whole thing and Waco keeps coming up. It just makes you wonder if they're trying to let everyone in when the house is clean, coach the women and children about what to say, cry mistreatment, then get everyone to leave them alone for another 50 years or so....
just thinking
I am a son of a polygamist, my father has two wives and I have 8 sisters and 8 brothers…each wife lives in her won house with her kids, and we live next to each other. My father eats and sleeps in both houses alternately and when circumstances don’t allow, he will make it up to keep it even. Both wives are happy and each is taking care of her own house, I like my half-siblings and my step-mother…I am 32 and I am happy for having a 5 years old brother, my nephews is having fun playing with his same-age uncle.
We are living a normal life, we all love and respect my father and we all care for each other…
That is how I feel about it…and that is why I feel so sorry and I so understand the complaints of those poor women…they have been living happily and the whole thing disrupted their lives!
I agree if it is about underage girls forced into marriage… but I think it is overrated when it comes to polygamy….
I find it weird when I hear people condemn polygamy and overlook adultery… I see it otherwise… and I hope nobody out there who thinks a son of a polygemic marriage is worse than a bastard!
I think polygamy should be a personal choice…if all parties agree.
It is an attention diver tor in the face of bad economy that is worsening more and more by time. They the elite want to keep your mind busy so you don't look at problems. Look at gasoline and food prices, it is just the beginning. It may get worse than this before the people really will turn the tide against the elite.
huh?
anon 8:32
The problem is in the FLDS girls are forced into these marriages. It isn't their say. Look at the case that convicted Warren.
Polygamy is not under attack. The abuse of children is.
Where are the children?
Who is taking care of them?
Who kisses them, tucks them in at night, and listens to their prayers?
Who is letting them know they are loved and easing their fears?
Does anyone even care that they are not only frightened, but terrified?
What is their destiny?
Separating them from the people who care about them shows who the real abusers are!!
I don't know what I would do if someone attempted to take my children and I don't understand why there are people who think they are so perfect that they can step in and walk on others like they are doing.
So very many of the reports are based on assumptions. And yet those 'great judges' can rip tiny babies and little children from their mothers arms on those same ridiculous pretences with the thought that the children will be better off because they'll do things 'my way'!
Judge not that ye be not judged
Where are the children?
Hung out to dry by the parents who allow the rape of 14 year olds. Hung out to dry by men who believe in bleeding the beast.
I feel sorry for the children but not as sorry as I will feel in ten years if we don't get the abuses stopped.
George
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. All these polygamists need to do to avoid "harassment" is to allow their girls to reach the legal age for marriage before marrying them off. It's that simple. Most of us could care less if grown adults wish to practice polygamy. I, for one, have no issue with the practice, though I believe that what's good for the goose should be good for the gander. ;-)
Why is it so hard to allow these girls to reach the age of legal marriage in the states in which one resides? I'd like someone to give me one valid reason why one cannot wait a couple of years to marry. If you don't like the laws of a state, then go live somewhere else or expect to have the laws enforced.
And yes, I believe that that crack addict's baby down the street should be taken from their family and placed in a safe household as well. I'm pretty consistent across the board on the rights of children.
Using the religious persecution argument doesn't wash with me. Children's rights trumps religious freedom in all cases.
I'd like someone to give me one valid reason why one cannot wait a couple of years to marry. If you don't like the laws of a state, then go live..
if they got to grow up first, they wouldn't go for the "marry Uncle Pervy" option.
Anonymous asked: "Why is it so hard to allow these girls to reach the age of legal marriage in the states in which one resides?"
First of all, simple arithmetic. There just ain't enough "brides" to go around. A uterus is a priceless commodity to polygamists, and that's all these girls are to them: incubators. To wait five or six years past puberty to start making babies would be completely counter-intuitive.
Secondly, these men, like so many others, clearly value immature traits in women, especially when it comes to their bodies. Why do you think there's such high demand for porn featuring underage or "barely legal" girls? Polygamy is just a "religiously sanctioned" way of replacing your aging wife with a fresh new one. I don't think we'll ever have polygamists who don't see young, barely pubescent girls as fruits ripe for the picking. In reality, men are biologically driven to respond this way. The thing about polygamy is it gives 20th century men an excuse not to feel guilty about it.
few misc. notes
300 kids 4 years and younger
nightmare for foster care
godsend for adoptive services
wonder who cried harder
women for their kids
men for their temple
I'm wondering why none of the fathers met with the media
don't they want the kids back too?
maybe they're too afraid of the question
"how many are yours?"
keep sweet texas
stg
Donna, I can't argue that there are men living polygamy that use it for perverse purposes. I will argue that there are men who live polygamy that have wives close to their own age and do not look at young girls with lustful eyes. I know many of them. They have three or four wives within ten years their age (who all married at adult ages) and are content with the family they have. Those that will marry underage girls are few when you take into account the number living polygamy.
Sense no one knows who is bedding with you my question is this. Are any of the children special needs? If there are any, where are they? You don't see them on TV. What did they do with them if there are any? Having a child with " special needs" takes lots of care. Just wondering if the social workers have even thought of it.
Why shouldnt the government intervien? They are LIVING OFF THE GOVERNMENT and seem to think thats ok? And no, I do not feel sorry for these wives as I hear them in interviews- to mainsteam, they sound like weak, brainwashed wemon sacrficing their children to appease a man.... Anyone care for some Kool-aid? Ladies first!!!
To anon 5:59
You said you are in favor of the crack addict's baby down the street being taken from them.
That is all good but why not take all the children in that neighborhood and all the children on that street maybe on a few more adjoining streets as well and treat everyone of them as you would treat the polygamist children simply because they live close together?
Your thinking is like Hitler's--since they live differently than you get rid of them all! Not just the abuser--get them all! There is always a slim chance that they could become that way as well. Destroy them now befor that happens.
You can bet your bottom dollar that not all of those people are of the nature you choose to believe, no matter how the media portrays them.
I know some who are the most kind and caring people I have ever met. I am positive that if you were in trouble they would be there to help you through it. They would not take you, along with all your friends, relatives and anyone who had anything to do with you and decide you weren't worth keeping.
This is an unfair and unpredictable world but that doesn't mean everyone in it needs to be.
Anon 11:00,
Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black.
For 50 years they've shunned society and the press. Convenient timing now, as it was in the 50's, to parade their women in front of the cameras in an attempt to guilt us into giving back their kids. Hint... you ladies might get more sympathy from us if there were any actual tears in your contorted faces. And your denials of child abuse might be a bit more believable if not for all the pregnant little girls.
You're welcome to practice your religion and worship how you please. But when it comes to child abuse and a whole list of other offenses, it's no longer a question of faith. You've enjoyed way too much tolerance. Instead of Big Love, it's time for tough love.
i know this is beside the point but street has recently invaded the san angelo newspapers blog below the stories. Man, just when you think you didn't have to read any of his insanity.
www.gosanangelo.com
Reasons the state (We the People) will never leave FLDS alone.
1.Bleeding the Beast; using the states funds to support your family.
2.Fumarase Deficinecy;
Taxpayers have been footing the bill for the fumarase deficiency children born to polygamists who insist that plural marriage involving close relatives is their divine right.
3.Forced Marriage.
4.Child Brides.
The "Take all of the children into custody because of the actions of a few." analogy being used by FLDS members and some people here is false. There is a big difference between the abuse that goes on in most towns and the alleged abuse in the YFZ ranch. (I say alleged, not because I believe it wasn’t happening, but because the FLDS people haven’t had there day in court.) The people in most towns don’t follow the same leaders, don’t believe the same things, and don’t live in such a controlled community. The FLDS members, especially those in the YFZ ranch, teach the wholesale practice of abuse and that they have to do what there leaders say not matter what. Weather they like it or not in Texas, Utah, Arizona, and probably every other state, it is child abuse for an adult to marry anyone under 16, something that the FLDS teaches is acceptable.
This isn’t just some town. They live together, work together, worship together, and follow the same leaders. This is a town controlled to the point where it is in essence one big family and as such, when an adult is abusing even one of thier kids, ALL of their kids are taken, until they get there day in court.
Taking these children from loving mothers is not only evil it has lifelong consequences for the children. My heart aches for these children. They will be in such distress and fear right now. They will lose trust in adults for doing this to them.
Imagine if your neighbour was abusing their child and CPS came in and took your children too, just in case. Surely this is against the law.
This is an attack on freedom of religion and an attack on the children and the children will suffer for ever for this. The mothers are in agony over the loss of their children.
If polygamy was legal and bound by certain laws then underage marriage could be prosecuted on a case by case basis, not this wholesale witch hunt that has gone on in Texas.
These children as they grow up will feel more drawn to their religion and community, not less, because the outside world has done them terrible harm. If you want to make someone into a fundamentalist then attack the foundation of their beliefs because that will do it every time.
Shame on Texas. And where is "Sarah" and does she exist?
o, richard. if we become State property by giving the State a mandate to protect us from ourselves and our neighbors, what happens to our liberty if we give the church a mandate to keep us and our neighbors from sin? :>
Figure it out. Do Robots need to worry about liberty?
Anonymous at 1:52 on why we won't leave the FLDS alone.
Amen Brother
George
I come to this blog to hear what FLDSers and ex-FLDSers have to say about these situations.
NOT to hear what a bunch of people who are ignorant to the innerworkings of both the FLDS and polygamy.
All of you blaming this on polygamy -- that is not the case. There are people in monogamous relationships raping their children, beating and brainwashing their wives. Quit blaming these actions on polygamy; contrary to popular belief polygamy doesn't objectify or oppress women. Many of the women I know who practice polygamy are neither Mormon NOR are they "submissive" (in the sense of allowing their men to beat the crap out of them or rape their 14 y/o daughters).
You people need to grow up. You fear the unknown.
That being said -- the only reason I'm happy the state has intervened is so that those who ARE being abused can be helped.
Those that have no sign of abuse need to be returned to their families immediately. There is NO REASON for non-abused children to be away from their loving parents, no matter how many mothers and fathers there are.
And you know what? I'm NOT a hypocrite; if they do it the way *I* believed in they could come to my neighborhood (I live IN the "hood")and do the same thing. Because my kids aren't abused. My husband has no underaged wives. But there are those around here that are and could use the help.
And -- what does the state propose be done with these children, if the judge allows the parental rights to be removed? Where will we put all of these children? Into the foster care system? The system that is PROBABLY worse than their own homes?
You're planning to introduce them to a society that is plain ole wicked. I am not a Mormon OR a Christian. I don't believe in Mormon theology but -- guess what? I believe in YHWH and all that is pure and good and I have to admit that the world is a wicked place. You want to bring them out because they don't get to watch tv (TV-MA) or have access to the internet (type in things wrong and you will end up on a porn site)? They can't listen to secular music (even the most innocent of songs today have a sexual innuendo to them).
We're not helping.
I don't think it's 100% right. Just like everybody else, *I* just wanted to know WHAT was going on in there (what can I say? Nosey American, that's me lol).
now that I know, I want those that are truly trying to be righteous and are not abusing their children to get their children back.
Let's see how you'll feel if someone ever accuses you of abuse and takes your children away, presumably under false pretenses.
I give a lot of slack to those who come on here and abuse all polygamists with blanket statements because I know they do not understand and have no desire to understand. I have determined it is part of human nature to judge others by our own experience. If I can't stand to eat onions all must be weird that will consume them by choice, etc.
A number of polygamy pros have asked the cons how they would feel if it were their children being taken. A legitimate question on the face of it but I don't think it applies much here. I had a moment of deja vu when I was listening to the interviews of the mothers today. When one lady started to tell how she had been separated from her children and told she may not see them again my mind flashed back to several interviews given about four years ago by fathers in Hildale/CC that had their families taken away by warren. They had been gone from home and when they returned the family was gone and they were not allowed to contact them until court proceedings forced the issue. The story was exactly the same but the shoe was on the other foot. Call it Divine Justice, Karma or whatever you wish but when you cast your bread upon the water it will return. The course has come full circle and what was dished out is being received.
Esther, Marilyn and Sally,
If "they" ask you if you polygamy is Lawful, you might ask, "Is it lawful for two women to have children with NO father present (as in a lesbian relationship)? If your practice is illegal, then surely these "alternate lifestyles" should be equalally illegal.
If "they" are concerned about the children being abused, why do "they" cause these same children the ultimate abuse--removing them from their real mothers who love them? Since the children are not at fault, why don't "they" remove the guilty ones (not the innocent ones) from the household and leave the innocents in peace?
A Concerned American
Anon 2:55
Aside from the few mudslingers on the blogs who is attacking plural marriage? No one. I have read the affidavit and the warrant issued for the raid. The only mention of polygamy was in general reference to religious practice and had nothing to do with the findings of abuse. Underage brides to 20+ year old men and/or underage pregnancy was however mentioned in nearly every paragraph. This is what this is all about. STOP MARRYING UNDERAGE GIRLS!! You can cite how the forebears of this religion have been persecuted for violating the laws of the land that have been made specifically for them and think you are a part of the same but you would be deluded. These men stood on principles that have roots in the beginning of Mormonism and history will show that the law no longer prosecutes for these infractions. On the contrary these young marriages have no root in Fundamental Mormonism and they have been decried by the two previous leaders prior to warren. I am afraid the FLDS will not see this simple truth until they have reached their sorry end. God help these children who are being hung out to dry by their own mothers.
Amen!! Thank You Fttc.!
Judging by these photos the children at the YFZ Ranch didn't appear too frightened by the cops. At least the boys didn't!
www.myeldorado.net
Polygamy so frequenly leads to abuse but we'll all overlook polygamy. We will not overlook:
1. raping and impregnating children. Children cannot, by law, consent to sex with an adult.
2. incestuous relations
3. beast bleeding
4. tax evasion
5. child abandonment
6. forcing anyone to live this way of life
George
I can't believe what I am reading!
There is something seriously, SERIOUSLY wrong with anyone who thinks these children should not have been taken away. Yes...ALL of them!
Do you read / see the news AT ALL!?!? Not one woman/girl gets to chose her husband or whether or not she marries. NOT ONE! Their husbands are chosen for them and when they are to be married is told to them. They have NO CHOICE.
Again...EVERY SINGLE WOMAN / GIRL has no choice. And that my friends is against the law.
EVERY SINGLE WOMAN / GIRL MUST HAVE SEX WITH HER "HUSBAND" WHENEVER HE WANTS IT, even if she doesn't. And that is rape.
So yes, every single underaged girl should have been removed based on that alone.
This is common knowledge.
This is the United States...not Iraq. Women have the right to say "no" to getting married, the right to chose their husband and the rights to say "no" to sex.
And when 30+ year old men are having sex with minors...IT'S CALLED CHILD ABUSE!
Read the news. Read Carolyn Jessop's Escape. Rent / Buy "Banking on Heaven"...then express your opinions.
I am The One True Charlatan.
Worship no false charlatans before me.
This appears to be a "Waco" invasion replay by overzealous goverment bureaucrats.Like Waco, few if any crimes will likely ever be proven.
How many meth labs have they found in their compound? How much stolen property belonging to outsiders found in their compound?
Were they leaving their compound to commit crimes against their neighbors.
From what I've seen on the news, these must be dangerous criminals.
The police had to bring in their armored vehicles and high powered weapons.
Remember - we all do things that seem inappropriate to someone ! What to do about us?
Freedom requires immense patience!
OK - What about those Amish? They need to get up to speed. Those horses are causing to much methane.
Again, we all are guilty of something.
God Save America
Why is everyone so stuck on religion and polygamy, neither of these is the case. I don't care who you pray to or who you sleep with, but a child is a child and will not be forced to marry or have sex against their will. All you people who think the government is out to get all of us, and are dodging bigger issues with this are just crazy. Is this story really taking away from fuel prices and the recession "NO" I still read my news today about them and everyone is still concerned about them. The shameful thing about this story is it finally took Texas do something Arizona and Utah should of done years ago. This can be an issue about religion though, why is it that all these religious groups can be tax exempt and anti government,but still will take government handouts at every chance they can get. Arizona put out the facts that Colorado City takes in $8 dollars of government aid for Every $1 they pay in taxes. 2/3rd of the Women in Colorado City are on Welfare, and I am sure it is the same in Texas and Utah. So without the government a large number of children would be starving or worse, so where is it int he bible that you should keep having children as long as you can even if you can't feed them. If it is god's will than why do they need government handouts? I believe this is just another religious scam just like the Amish and Menonites, I have lived around my entire life. Abuse children and do whatever you want as long as you are doing it in the name of christ.
Hey all you molesters posting to this the ATF & FBI are watching they are tracing it to your computer in your town right into your house!! Better look out you never know who's comming knocking at your door!! THEY WILL GET YOU A PUT YOU IN PRISON YOU KNOW WHAT THEY DO TO MOLESTERS IN PRISON DONT YOU?
KNOCK KNOCK
To 32 year old son of pologomist: I hear no mention of any children of your own. Are you one of the many "lost boys" who can find no wife because all the older men have claimed them? Fortunately, it sounds as if you have not been run off, but have you ever stopped to ask yourself about raising your OWN family? QQ
Well although I feel sorry for the brainwashed women and children of these so called men of God, I do have to say it's about time somebody is doing something about this. These crimes have been going on for quite sometime, I remember seeing documentaries on this years ago. What they are doing is against the law. You do not marry underage children and impregnate them and turn around and give up your own children to old nasty molestors. It's all about CONTROL, and the second worse thing about all of this, is that if this is true that all these women and children are getting welfare checks & supporting these mind controlling men, than we as hardworking, law abiding citizens have been funding this & it just makes me sick. I sure hope that this will be an eye opener for our country, here we are fighting for the rights of women and children in th middle east & this has been going on for quite sometime in our own country. I will keep these women, children and the lost boys in my prayers everyday.
In other polygamy communities many of the woemn collect welfare - so to answer the question of being property of the state, if the state is paying you to care for yourself and your children then yes that makes you property of the state. And guilty of fraud, because to claim welfare you have to claim you are not married but if your in a polygamist marriage then your married by your own laws.
I am a mother in a small town of Texas. I am Catholic which is not a popular religious choice in our town. We homeschool our large family and practice modest dress. It is my right to parent my own children as I see fit. You may not agree with my choices BUT I am not abusing or neglecting my children. The state of TX has crossed a line here with removing some of those children because of the potential for future abuse. Every child no matter how they are parented or what religion their parents practice is at some risk. Why hasn't anyone brought up how many girls aged 10 - 17 gave birth in TX last yr?? Our state has a HUGE problem with teen sex and that is going ignored while $$$$ is going to be spent on fighting the FLDS in court.
If a parent is abusing a child, the state must step in. I think the mothers are as much victims as the kids, not for what the state did, but what the supposedly 'righteous' men of the sect did!!
WHERE ARE THE MEN ANYWAY??
Yes, that's exactly what we have done! The state owns us and your children! You can get your children taken by state, oh so easily. I have worked with children owned by the state, and most of children remain in facilites for most of their lives, even as adults. Our good old state system. Better hope known of you get a false allegation on you, because your children will be gone most likely. Better fight for your rights, and a revised system of the state. Now, an allegation should be looked into hard core, but this is totally out of control, and I believe these children will only be hurt more, by being taken away from their families. We can't even spank our children, without worring that the state will get involved. And we wonder why some of our future children are angry, reckless etc. That judge has difficult choice to make!!
Rose,
You say it's easy to have your children taken away. I don't think I agree. Where are you coming from? In what capacity have you worked with children owned by the state? Do you have any personal experience in having your children taken away by the state?
I happen to have a relative who was involved with drugs for years and lived on the street with his family. His child wasn't eating regular meals or receiving a proper education...not to mention all the ugliness that goes with drug abuse. The state only got involved when a fellow concerned family member called CPS to have them check in. They lost their child for a year, but have won the child back after proving they could be drug-free and provide an appropriate home.
CPS worked very hard towards helping this family get back on their feet. It was their belief that what was best for this child was to be with her parents - if they could meet her physical needs.
Trust me on this, the state of Texas isn't chomping at the bit to take on 300 kids. It is their responsibility to do so if the parents are unfit.
It's a disgrace that all this has been dumped in Texas' lap. Shame on Arizona and Utah for turning a blind eye on this situation.
IMHO- The state IS doing everything in it's power to return the children. They interviewed the children before removing them from the ranch. They had to have probable cause to even do that. I think they found it. The next step is for the children to have individual hearings. How else are they going to prove their innocence at this point? The process has (with good reason) been started. There is nothing else left to do but grit out teeth and follow it through to the end of it's course. I feel absolutely confident the state of Texas will find those who are guilty of abuse and punish them. I also feel absolutely certain the state of Texas will find some families innocent and that some children WILL return to their homes.
The state of Texas doesn't care what the reason for abuse is. You may be a drug user or you may have come from a history of abuse yourself. Neither justifies abusing, exploiting, or neglecting a child.
Another thing, there seems to be this attitude that the state of Texas just can't wait to get its greedy little hands on these children.
Let me just put your minds at ease...those of us on the outside don't think that by getting ahold of your children we may have a shot at Heaven. Aside from the bizarre details, the FLDS children aren't any different to us than other neglected abused children.
It would be nice if you would look after their well-being yourself, but if you won't, then we are obligated to step in.
J
CPS has been doing this to families for years, just not on this scale and with this much publicity. When the mothers were being interviewed on TV and saying "CPS lied to us" with total shock in their voices, I wished I could give them a copy of the dirty tricks list. (It's at http://www.massoutrage.com/dssdirtytricks.htm
if anyone has contact with any of the mothers.)
Also, if no one else has posted it, there's a petition up at http://www.thepetitionsite.com/2/free-the-innocent-flds
I heard a rumor that foster parents as far away as Iowa are being asked about taking in FLDS children, which would assumably make visitation impossible.
Umm, did you SEE these women on the Larry King show? Whatever happened to them really shouldn't have to happen to anybody else: http://www.236.com/blog/w/sybil_adelman_sage/the_polygamist_wives_on_larry_5931.php
stitchwitch d,
If children in there are being abused, they need to be helped, don't you think?
Noboby wants to tackle the logistical nightmare of placing all those kids.
It sounds like you've had some bad run-ins with CPS.
What happened?
ps: have you ever heard of "lying for the Lord"? it may help you make better sense of these "poor" women on tv.
I can clearly see that some of the comments here seem genuinely concerned but I am appalled at the number of hateful un-Christian comments; particularly from some who proudly announce they are Texan. Irrespective of religion there should be a shared common decency and it’s mostly missing from this discussion. I am disturbed that the hate toward an entire group seems to outweigh the golden rule.
SHAME, SHAME, SHAME on ANY of us who are sitting in judgment on this, or any, situation without any evidence! If you are typing hate toward this group what in the world makes you think you have any clue what you are talking about? I guarantee I am closer to this than just about anyone posting here. Even with my access I would not dare say one thing in judgment when I know NOTHING for sure.
I hate the concept of child brides and have worked feverishly to prevent it (from the inside) but you know NOTHING. There are many, many, more amazing people committed to their religion and decency within this group than you can imagine. If you have hate in your heart I pray for you.
I do PERSONALLY know of SOME under-aged marriages that have happened with the consent of the parents within the FLDS society and I have been disgusted by it. ALL the men I know of have been prosecuted. That’s right, due process under the law and I have done my best to facilitate that. Remember that. You can hate the crime but love the people and they deserve your love because they are fellow human beings. I do not believe there was ever a reason to remove all the children - NONE. Maybe one or two should have been removed but now it's just a disaster.
Do you REALLY think CNN has any factual information? If you are commenting here, or in the grocery store, or to your neighbor with any allusion that you have ANY answers then SHAME ON YOU! The only things we know for sure is that hundreds of children are without their mothers. And, not a single person has been charged with a crime! How is this possible in the “Land of the Free”?
Hold your babies tighter while you still can; CFS will be along shortly to collect them at the first sight that you are different or that you may be a criminal by association. Association makes stuff leach off on you!-sarcasm intended.
Texas is the LAST place I expected to have so little respect for freedom. Y’all are not what I thought you were.
It kind of occured to me that the way these people want to live; to try to avoid a greater forced assimilation on jointly held private property. Maybe open up a few Casinos next?.
I dont have any objections to plural wives, but ALL the partners need to be 18 or older. Impregnating a 13 year old is immoral. Are the old guys pedophiles? How sad that the young women don't get a chance to live their lives before being saddled with children, when they are just children themselves.
I am new to this blog,I only know polygamy from what I have seen on CNN.It truly seems quite shocking,if the abuses and allegations are true.Can some ex-flds person tell me if the polygamists in Blue Ridge Ga. and Humansville Missouri,are part of the same FLDS cult?
Please explain to me what "Lying for the lord" means and how it will explain these poor women????
Someone was looking for Sarah? Yes I exist!! Be easy on me hey!!
"Lying for the Lord" is a phrase coined by the FLDS which describes the practice of telling untruths in order to preserve and protect your religion or your way of life.
The FLDS feel that polygamy is the principal that will get them to the Celestial Kingdom. Therefore, they feel that lying to acheive that purpose is justifiable.
That is what is going to make this a very difficult situation to sort out.
freedommama,
Excuse us Texans for being a little bent out of shape about this whole thing. Texas is part of the Bible belt and Mormonism is strange enough to most of us. Add the FLDS twist and it's a recipe for outrage.
As a group I think we tend to be a little old fashioned about family and marriage - especially in the smaller towns.
I realize that some of you posting here are used to the lifestyle we're hearing about in the FLDS community, but to those of us who are new to all of this, aliens might as well have landed in Eldorado.
Add to that the fact that these folks (FLDS) think we're all going to the lowest level of Hell just for being different than them.
It's not just Texans who are closed-minded.
Just a word of encouragement to any FLDS who are reading. God is still God. Ultimately He allowed all of this to happen. He works ALL things for the good for those who love Him.
For those of you who are having a hard time seeing God in all of this and are angry at your leader (Warren), remember that God can achieve His will even when the wrong person is in charge.
Warren might have received the revelation that YFZ was to be located in Texas. Perhaps God just needed to get all of you here to untangle the mess that Warren made.
This is a painful situation for those of you separated from family. Remember the story of Job. God allowed everything to be taken from him and then restored him.
All of this will work out for the best for those who love Him.
Did you all see this?
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/apr/18/polygamy-tip-springs/
Looks like the call that started this whole thing may very well have been a false report after all. The FLDS should sue for millions. You can't take every child out of ever home because of one allegation that was never substantiated. Plain and simple. This is still america and hopefully those who jumped the gun pay for infringing on religios freedom. Hopefully the ones who child rapers get theirs as well but understand these are two seperate issues, every FLDS is not a child raper. The ones that are get punished ie; warren jeffs.
fax
I want to start my own polygamist compound where all the women are in charge and we get to have our babies but the men have to stay home and raise them and do all the housework and work outside the house too and pay child support because I'll be so busy having fun with all my other husbands. Whatya say girls!! I think we're getting the short end of the stick here. But we as ladies would never ever sleep with underage men. Although a man a little younger would be nice. Sorry... I just got home from a real job so I can pay real taxes to help support religious causes that have nothing to do with me. I'm not from Texas but sure do like they're style. And if you don't like our government move to Mexico or Iraq. Stop complaining. I love my country and our laws.
I want to know why the SOB 's aren't paying child support. As far as I know if you file with social services like alot of these women are doing,they want to know the name of the father. I say DNA testing and then going after them for back support to the state.
Let the Rngers go to Houston and take every underaged girl who is pregnant or has had a child into protective custody.
THAT would put this whole issue into prospective!
anon 7:48 -
"It's not just Texans who are closed minded" - really? Is that really your defense for being so closed minded that you feel all non Christians may as well be "aliens"?
I think that the non-vocal majority of people in and out of Texas see two sides to the issue. The one of wanting to do anything neccesary to protect innocent children, but also that it's a horrible and traumatic thing for children to be ripped from all they know.
This is just a tragic situation all around. Adding religious intolerance to the mix just makes it more difficult.
Melody
I know I am new to this blog, but I must comment on freedommama's last blog!! So much anger, and I believe you should read your blog once again! You basically say " No one has the right to judge anyone!" First, reality is we are judged everyday, like it or not! But you clearly are judgemental, and make your judgements clear on many issues, like under-age marriage! I think it's healthy that we as a society have these blogs to speak of our opinons, feelings, and not go out and hurt others! Yes, "Freedom of speech!" And I hope everyone voices their opinions(appropriately!)We the adults make the future path for our children, and as a wife I don't believe their choices/actions are appropriate, but no hate here! I believe sharing my self with one man only, and Christian or not I love my family as it is! And they have made their personal choices in regards to their families. In my opinion, in regards to Pologamy, let's look further on pass judging, and religion! Lets start with STD's, and a man sharing himself with multiple women! The physical and emotional harm of a very older man having sexual relations with teenagers. And I am sure with all the families, and husbands their is incest involved, which can cause defects!It's not genetically right! Also, what about the young girls and boys who do not want to live this lifestyle, and you know their are some that it just comes naturally to want to see the other side of that wall! It's not about religion for me, but I am extremely sure it is for that Ranch. It's like the children outside have civil rights, but inside those walls they are not given that opportunity! I know I keep going on here, but do you really think a child gets what he needs emotionally with a mother with lets say 9 other children and 1 father! And lets not forget all the other children the women care for too! Any young child should be playing, laughing, learning, and sexual intercourse it something special and that should be done by choice, at an appropriate age. You probably think what do I know! Well, I work 1:1 with all ages of kids, and see hands-on the after effects of rape, physical and emotional abuse, and it makes me go home at night, and appreicate and pray my child is not exposed to such, and grow through the stages of childhood,adolescents, and then as an adult he will have to make his own decisions. If my child was in that situation, I would be extremely worried every minute, but I would and always love my child. But I hope he would have respect for women, and his children! I know I keep going on, but one last point! The women do not look happy at all, and in order to make your child happy you must love yourself first!! Just my opinion!
Yes, that clip from Larry King was interesting! I am not sure if they were in shock, tired, and stressed to the max because their world just went upside down. Or if they have never interacted with the outside world, and have poor social skills in our society!! They looked so pale, frail, and how does one handle having 9 babies physically!! I am sure the men were dominant behind those walls, and the women had never really got to know their selves, and what is they believe etc. And suddenly the men are still hidden behind a wall like always!! How knows!!!
I have to agree with Melody! You put that into good words!!
Thank you!
Are we sure the women file with social services? How could they get all that, and social services never catch on? I think it would be interesting in it's self to do DNA tests, and god knows who is the father!!
First off Pologamy is against the law,and after that call false or not it's CPS responsiblity to look into the call, and speak to the parents! And I think the Ranch has plenty of money to have had built that castle. Also, if they sue and got millions, we the tax payers will pay in the end!!
Nope! I don't believe god planned this situation, and in regards to that Warren guy~ that's the work of the devil!! I would run like hell if I were them!!
"Looks like the call that started this whole thing may very well have been a false report after all. The FLDS should sue for millions. You can't take every child out of ever home because of one allegation that was never substantiated. Plain and simple." -- ANOM 9:06
hate to tell you this, but it doesn't matter unless it was the police themselves who staged the call.
once the judge signs the warrant...it's game on
plain and simple
keep sweet texas
stg
Yeah, I like the old-fashioned family and marriage values myself, and I am not from Texas. I could see how people are feeling like ALIENS just landed in Texas!!
Melody,
This is anon 7:48. You are misinterpretting what I said about aliens....lol.
I was just saying that what we have learned about the FLDS group this month is so out of the ordinary for us. I was likening their arrival to the arrival of aliens because of the sharp contrast of lifestyles....get it??
Anyway, are you saying that Texans are closed-minded? If you're referring to child rape and incest, then count me in, sister!
anon 7:48
Then according to Texas if ANY Islamic girl is subjected to an arranged marriage, female circumcision, or honor killing then EVERY Islamic child should become a ward of the state - the girls because they are potential victims and the boys because they might grow up to be perps.
Any adult who participated in, knew about, or encouraged the rape and victimization of the children in this cult should be prosecuted.
I can't believe these women are so shocked they are losing their kids.
The way I see it, if a mother let's some old man have sex with their child then...yeah, they lose their kid.
I think the kids that were sent from other states and towns to the Texas compound should be permanently liberated from their birth parents. The parents abandoned them.
Oh and just as long as we're talking about the government and all...I think all those cult members should have their property and assets seized to pay for the care of the children that they abused and neglected.
I find it interesting that cult members are worried about being the property of the government when really the citizens of Texas are having to pay for their illegal and immoral activity.
no, the kids were removed because there was abuse in the HOME... and that was one huge home the kids were in.. and the facts are the facts.. there are at least half a dozen young girls pregnant right now, and others with babies who concieved them underage. Them are the facts.
The kids were removed because there was abuse in the home. As Greg Abbott, our attorney General said today if there were 4 kids and one was being abused, then all of the kids were removed. In this case there were 400+ kids in the homes where the abuse is taking place. I don't feel sorry for the parents.
It is about time.. and they should be prosecuted for breaking the LAW.
I also saw an interveiw with a 'lost boy" who was kicked out for watching news on TV. He said that several of his classmates were married at the end of 8th grade and had babies within the year.
SICK... SICK
PLEASE NOTE THAT IF A PERSON IS RECEIVING ANY GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE YOU THEN MUST OBEY THE LAW JUST AS ALL THE OTHERS DO AND POLYGAMY IS AGAINST THE LAW, AS THE MEN OF THAT WORLD KNOWS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT BY THE SIDE OF THE WOMEN
anon 7:48 -
I don't believe I misunderstood you. I wasn't implying that Texans are closed minded, I was refuting that idea. I'm a Texan born and raised myself.
I realize that the FLDS lead a lifestyle that is very foriegn to most of us, myself included. It isn't, in my opinion, a "recipe for outrage" though. It's just something we're unfamiliar with. And believe you me, the good God fearing Christians of the Bible belt are not exempt from child abuse and other atrocities just by virtue of being good Southern church-goers.
The point I was trying to make was simply that there is room to be outraged at the idea of child abuse and to want to persue those allegations, while still trying to be understanding and humane towards these people.
It seems to me (from the people that I've discussed this with) that most people fall somewhere in the middle. Wanting to respect religious freedom and the choices of adults, but still feeling the need to implement ways of making sure the kids are safe.
Just for the record, I believe that all state and federal laws should be upheld. I think if the people do not agree with a law they should work to change it, but until then, laws are laws and nobody is exempt. I think anyone who broke the law should be held responsible. I just think it's also the states duty to do their jobs while minimizing the trauma inflicted on innocent people.
Melody
why do we all jump down their throats. Civilizations way older "marry" their kids at birth. even today this still happens. Ask any Indian or Pakistani family, most like they have an arranged marriage in their midst. And guess what there is no divorce. I am not familiar with the specifics but I am sure the girls were of "legal age" when they were married with their parents permission. I am not in favor of polygamy by no means however if we had a true separation of church and state there would never be a problem. don't you have to get a state marriage license in Texas before getting "hitched" and then get married in front of a clergy or judge? so if someone gets married without a state license the state has no business because in legal terms the second "wife" would be a piece on the side. It might be despicable for a 40 year old man to have a 16 year old bride, hoever even in Texas that should not be illegal as long as there is parental consent and no coercion towards the teenager. This Country is great but..... you can get married at 16 but don't drink champagne at your wedding not even legally watch an R (never mind X) rated movie.
Texas sheriff describes raid.
Read it at:
eldoradosuccess.com
Melody,
The outrage I was referring to was the allegations we are all talking about on this blog.
I don't recall saying that others in the Bible belt aren't capable of hurting people or making bad decisions. It appears (from many of the posts I've read here and research I've done on my own), that there is a higher tolerance in their culture for the things we're all "outraged" about. For example, it has been widely reported that there were girls as young as 16 who were pregnant with their SECOND child when they were "invaded" in Eldorado. Many of these children didn't know who their biological moms were.
I am not able (or willing) to personally be a part of this community, so I have to rely on the stories of those who are willing to talk. Many are angry and have an axe to grind, but I cannot ignore the fact that so many of these separate accounts line up to one another.
Even if they're all part of a big conspiracy, you can't argue with the fact that a 16 year old should not have two babies. I know it's physically possible, but if you're going that route, why not just start procreating with them as soon as they start their periods at around 10?
Most people, including me,agree that they have the right to practice their faith.
7:48 anon
I don't get some of you on here. Have you ever heard interviews from those that left that force of culture? People/women have left there and have told horrible stories yet you keep saying "one child calls police and they take them all". Have you read the history on this? For years as a country we have allowed them to create a falsehood while taking the taxpayers money..you can dress it up for church and call it religion but for years they abused the system that is trying to save them. Its like the U.S. doesn't want to believe there is actually men out there being perverts and calling it religion so lets "not go there". Its abuse...religious or not its WRONG! And stop saying ONE girl...its several..and over YEARS time.
"I realize that the FLDS lead a lifestyle that is very foriegn to most of us, myself included. It isn't, in my opinion, a "recipe for outrage" though."
Yes, perhaps the way some of them practice it, but under Jeff's tyranny "outrage" has happened. Lives have been destroyed.
Fumarase deficiency is extremely rare. Until roughly 18 years ago scientists knew of only thirteen cases worldwide . However, recently twenty additional cases have been documented in the Arizona/Utah border towns of Colorado City, Arizona, and Hildale, Utah[7] These two towns constitute a closed and controlled community, and were settled in the 1930s by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which is a breakaway sect now unaffiliated with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. As such, many of the surrounding communities refer to this disease as "Polygamist's Down's"[8]
Dr. Theodore Tarby, a pediatric Neurologist who has treated some of the sect's affected residents has been quoted as estimating the IQ of these patients as around 25. [9]. Tarby was treating a child with undetermined developmental difficulties when he learned there was a sibling with what was being described as Cerbral palsy. Upon examining the other child, he sent off urine samples for definitive testing only to learn that his patients had a disorder so rare that only 13 other current cases were known.[10] Assuming these numbers are correct, the new cases Tarby uncovered now account for approximately 60.6% of all known cases of Fumarase deficiency.
The fumarase deficiency gene has become very common in this community, due to the practice of Endogamy. It is believed that Joseph Smith Jessop, one of the founders of the communities, and his first wife carried the gene. According to the Phoenix New Times, the stage was set for the or the appearance of the rare disease when their 12th child, Martha Jessop, married her second cousin, John Yeates Barlow, in 1923.[11]. The same article states that some 20 cases have now been documented and that further intermarriage between the Jessop and Barlow families will surely result in more afflicted children.[12] There is the possibility of perhaps hundreds of new cases in future generations if preventative measures are not adopted by the group members who are suspected carriers of the gene.[13] More alarming still is the recent development of a satellite community in Eldorado, Texas, where a temple has been built by FLDS Church members.[14] This new community is populated with many members of these two extended families who can be presumed to be potential carriers of the recessive gene.
The populations of Colorado City and Hildale could be considered examples of the founder effect.
we have enough retards in this world, too bad it didnt end like waco, it could have saved us time and money
Well it seems to me Ross Chatwin is turning out to be a prophet for what he said in 2004:
"Some of the zealous young people within the FLDS organization need to be made aware of the implications of acting in a rash manner. Anything you do that might harm another individual will bring down a thorough investigation of this people. The very religion you are trying to protect will be exposed beyond your wildest imagination."
anon 7:48 -
I think we actually agree and just have a different way of saying things. I assure I'm just as disgusted as anyone at the idea of young girls being forced into marriage and pregnancy. It's abuse and can't be tolerated.
berry -
Yes, I absolutely agree that it's obvious that under Jeffs some horrible things have occured and they need to be stopped somehow. I meant only that the FLDS religious itself shouldn't be an outrage.
Melody
sap
such intellectual and thought provoking dialogue. The blogosphere is a better place for your having contributed.
this i know
The Texas authorities are adamant that this situation is so dire they had no choice but to take the course of action they did. I think they went overboard by removing every child but for argument sake let's say they did exactly the right thing.
How do they explain their distinct lack of action in the case of the hundreds of other 13-15 year old girls in Texas who turn up pregnant every year? No taking the girl let alone all of her siblings into protective custody pending an investigation. Why? They've made their position clear that these cases are rape due to the girls age and that her being okay with it doesn't change anything. They have stated their position that this is the appropriate response to this crime so why don't they resond this way all the time?
Also, now that the State of Texas has made it clear these rapes are unacceptable will they require medical clinics and schools to report it when they become aware that a girl in this age group is sexually active so that CPS can investigate? Will schools and medical clinics who give contraceptives to girls these ages be guilty of facilitating their rape?
For people who think there is no element of religious persecution please explain the contradictory actions of law enforcement and CPS. Hundreds of young girls who fit the definition of rape victims being applied to the FLDS girls go virtually ignored as far as child protection or investigative effort every single year in Texas. Why the extreme response to this small group of girls and zero response to the same crime in hundreds of others?
We all know, from those from the inside, that it is the right of the father to prepare the daughters for marriage. We know what that involves. Considering this, the female children have been violated. There is abuse regardless. Lets face the truth!
I guess we don't all know what it involves. Are you suggesting that it involves incestual activities? If you are could you show me the proof? I used to know many of these fathers and I don't beleive they would stoop that low.
Anon 7:25
Actually I have read many cases in the news where a minor girl was sexually active with an adult and the adult was prosecuted. I am not saying every case is, there are those clinicians and teachers that will turn a blind eye. Your analogy is flawed in overlooking this point. As far as the children being taken away from the parents in such cases I don't believe you know the parents were aware of the activity and that they condoned it. Do you know of such cases where the family was not investigated?
In Texas it is against the law for an adult to have sexual relations with a child under 16. The FLDS men and women were aware of this law. They chose to ignore it. They are experiencing the consequences of their choice. As Mr. Walsh pointed out in his testimony in court; the idea that these young marriages are a part of Fundamental Mormonism just is not true. If the FLDS have lately adopted this as a principle and part of their religion I suppose they have the right to do so. Is this principle worth defying the law over? I guess we will see. When your forebears went to prison for their religion they did so with the assurance that they were suffering the consequences of following fundamental laws of their religion. I hope you have the fortitude to endure for your principles as well. If the capitulation of the past week is any indication you will eventually see this for what it is.
I am so furious about this ordeal!! Why are the kids still in state custody??? They KNOW the kids are taken care of!!! I am so mad!! Why are we standing for this crap?? This means that they can come into anyones house and take our kids simply because they dont agree with the way they are raised! This is wrong!!!
I could go on and on about how wrong this is!
I agree with fttc.
The underage issue is really black and white.
Also anon 7:25 should do more research about the current practices within the FLDS.
The news media seems to be turning on Texas and taking all the willing minds with them.
16 will get 20 in Texas
What's next? Merril, Wendell, Willie T. and others go in hiding? I can't see them submitting to DNA tests.
I am sickened by polygamy,but CPS does not have the right to remove all of the children until there is actual proof of abuse...remember, "innocent until PROVEN guilty"? The origniating phone call came not, from an abused 16 year old, but from a 33 year old black female who resided in another state i.e. a hoax. This infomration was released last night on Anderson Cooper/ CNN.
If CPS is to be consistent, then they should remove all children from all homes in the US because there is abuse in every town and city of America. Actually, more sexual and physical abuse takes place in foster care than anywhere else! These children are jumping from the frying pan into the fire. May God help them!
I believe this is the government's way of controlling religion and wiping it out...start with radical fringe cults (Waco& YFZ) and move on to orthodox Christianity....
We are a nation under judgment for spitting in the face of a Holy God, as we have murdered 50 million pre-born babies,tolerate and promote homosexuality and perversion of all kinds...."God will not be mocked." May we, as a nation, repent and turn back to the God of the Bible.
Can we all agree that anyone under the age of 16 probably isn't ready to start a family?
There is common sense behind this law.
fttc, am I correct in understanding that marriage is a thing that can be used as both a reward and correction tool within FLDS?
If a young girl is righteous, she may be rewarded (by the prophet) with a good husband. If she is becoming a discipline problem, she might be given in marriage to reign her in.
Also a girl can go to the prophet (with her father) and let him know she's ready to be given in marriage...
He would either ask if she had anyone in mind or tell her who she was to marry (through divine revelation).
Is that how it basically works?
Bang on; Tex.
Hi~
I'm really curious about the DNA testing, and how that will all turn out. Anyone here know much about DNA testing, and how results are worked out?
I'm not LDS, or FLDS .... while I think any 16 yr old having sex, or being married is totally out of line, I also think the majority of those kids should be given back to their mothers. For the most part they have a clean lifestyle, and certainly one they are use to. Do the 100 children under 4 yrs of age really have to stay in foster care?? No reason to leave 400 children in state custody just because there might be a couple of girls who are pregnant, and under age. Keep them, send the rest home until it's all sorted out.
The thing I wonder about the genetic testing is how it all shakes out when there are so many mothers, one father, and in some cases there is cousin to cousin marriage, etc. going back a couple of generations ... all within just a few "family" groups. What effect, if any, will that have on the genetic testing. I agree that I can't see any of the men will be willing participants. I have a sneaking suspicion they'll disappear on Tuesday making it difficult to trace. Or, perhaps they'll give false names .... they do have a few days to work it all out.
Yikes .... what a mess!
TWR
Native Texan
YES about the 16 year old.
Can marriage be used as a reward/punishment?
Of course it can. Is it? I don't honestly know how to answer that question. I suppose you could say that marrying a rebellious girl would be a form of punishment. Most girls want to get married anyway and we are taught placement marriage as a fundamental principle so the assigned marriage I don't consider as a punishment. I won't deny that some girls were married to try to help them settle down. My information indicates that it was usually by request of the parents to try to save their child. Both of the previuos leaders to warren tried this a number of times and in nearly every case it turned out a disaster. They both came to the same conclusion; that young marriages do not work. Both decried the young marriages. For the reward part, yes of course if a girl is faithful she will get more attention at the hands of the leadership. Isn't that true in other religions as well? I don't mean to say that a faithful girl will get married any younger than one that is rebellious or vice versa. In my experience I can't say one or the other is more often the case. I knew girls considered faithful that wanted to get married at 16 and the parents and leaders put it off until they were almost 20.
I know some faithful girls that were married to rebellious boys. Sometimes the marriage stuck and other times it did not. For these reasons I can't say that the punishment/reward idea is correct. For the rest of it, you have the basic idea.
Anon 11:07
It will be interesting to see what happens here. Either the parentage will be established or the parents will lose all chances of getting the children back. It would be very sad to see the fathers abandon their families. (I don't know a better way to say it, although from the incrimination point of view it may not be seen as abondonment as they will likely lose them in either case if the mother is underage.) I too would like to know just how accurate the DNA testing is when you are dealing with families so genetically close.
fttc~
I guess in any case it's going to be interesting to see how it all filters down so-to-speak. The DNA testing might just be a pandoras box.
It would be sad to see fathers abandon their families, though it may be the only thing they think they can do .... it may end up implicating them too much in some cases. Then what happens to the women, and children?
I don't know if this has already come up, but how many IF any on the El Dorado compound are on welfare? I keep seeing this brought up over, and over, in mainstream news, but I thought it was mostly some in CC/Hildale, etc. Certainly not ALL FLDS are on public assistance? I would imagine that if they could match any on the YFZ ranch to public assistance that it would not fare well for them. It looks to me that they are a self sustainable community .... is this true?
TWR
Daughter of Scotland said: May we, as a nation, repent and turn back to the God of the Bible
I hope everyone here realizes that the God of the Christian Bible is NOT the same god of the FLDS or LDS. Christians do not believe that god was a man exalted from a place or from near a place called Kolob. Just one of the many IMPORTANT theological differences between Christians and FLDS or anyone Mormon.
I do think CPS had the right to remove EVERY child from that compound. The community is as one large family, so it's difficult to separate individual family units. Therefore, all children within that family are in danger. Children are valued in a strange way within the walls of that compound. I think their parents prize them for the most part, but I do not think the parents put the children's interests over the men's interest. . . how many wives and children these men have is a power trip for them. Daughter of Scotland, do you understand this?
I've been hearing for the past couple of days that there are 2-3 confirmed cases of pregnant girls under 17 WITHIN the 416 children now in Texas State custody. If so, that may be the state's basis for retaining custody. Does anyone have any info on this??
Melody
Odd question ....
I'd like to know from someone in Texas how Eldorado is pronounced.
Is it a hard A in EldarAdo, or is it an ahhhhhhh, as in Eldorahhhhhhdo?
I know ... silly ?, but I keep hearing the hard A, and my brain wants to say it the other way. Just wonder what you in Texas say?
Thanks!
El-doe-rade-o
I am NOT LDS I am NOT a polygamist..however I feel compelled as a mother & grandmother to comment and offer what small amount of support I can regarding the recent raids in Texas.
If these allegations were made on my street? Would the family involved be investigated or would law enforcement swoop in and remove ALL children from ALL families on the block? In the whole city?
This is the epitome of being persecuted for your beliefs. Period. They are no longer investigating allegations of abuse but are now stuck in the quagmire of dealing with their overzealous actions.
To say there was "probable cause"? maybe...sure, it has to be investigated...children MUST be protected at all costs. But to remove all of the children from their families? and under these traumatic circumstances?? Shame on the powers the be for allowing this! How can they be screaming about children being married off at 16 (as some of the records indicate) when most states allow marriage at this age with parental consent. To say I am confused by the hypocracy is a gross understatement.
In an era that has homosexuals beating the rest of us in society over the head to "accept" their behavior and "lifestyle choices"?? Where our children are taught "tolerance" of all beliefs and cultures? What am I missing??? Who decides what is worthy of being "tolerated"??
In my humble opinion, it is little wonder the members of the FLDS church seem "clannish" and "hide out" The "Normal" outsiders..and I use the word loosely, contaminate the air these otherwise good and God fearing people breathe.
It is my fervent prayer that this fiasco blows up in the face of the officials in Texas...that more parents and fellow human beings come to support these families who have had their children stolen away without just cause and denied due process....that it will somehow all be worth it in the end...that the travesties and injustices done will backfire and allow ALL plural marriage families to stop living in the dark with fear of being criminalized. Shame on you Texas.
And its Co-lo-raaa-do City, no Co-lo-raw-do City.
Pe-cawn or Pe-caan?
more like: El-doe-RAID-o
TWR
I hope someone in the FLDS will challenge me if I am wrong. From the information I am able to gather from the few members that will speak to me still the folks in YFZ are NOT on welfare. However they are not self-sustaining either. They are being supported by those members that are not in YFZ. The most faithful are allowed to gather there. The tremendous effort that has been put into building up the YFZ has been accomplished throught the labors of hundreds of members and their contributions. There is nothing coming out of YFZ that could support the huge building effort that has taken place there. On the issue of welfare I would like to note that while the members at the YFZ are not on welfare to my knowledge many of those members who are sending funds to YFZ are on WIC, Medicare, food stamps and other welfare programs. So while they in YFZ are not directly on welfare themselves (as far as I know) they are benefitting indirectly from the system.
I'm sure you will remember how to pronounce Eldorado - not like the caddy, but a hard 'a' sound like Raid. El duh raid doh - These could also each be used as one word sentences in that area.
As far as the 2-3 girls in custody who are teenagers and pregnant, I've come across two different numbers. On Friday, one of the press releases stated that there were 20 teen pregnancies (and I believe that included past and present). Greta Van Susteren said that there were allegedly only about 5 people who appeared to have been abused. If that's the case, we are talking about somewhere between 1% and maybe a little under 5% of the child population. That's actually very low, compared to the rest of society.
As far as welfare goes, there are a couple of ways to remedy this. One, you reduce the amount of excessive welfare programs which we have. Two, you do what (believe it or not) anti-polygamist have recommended: you legalize polygamy. That way, men are forced to marry the women they are with, and those women are not able to collect welfare as single mothers. It certainly seems to have at least some logic. Besides, wasn't our country founded on the principal of Separation of Church and State? Doesn't outlawing polygamy contradict that? Seems Unconstitutional to me.
Oh, one last thing. And this may be the most uncomfortable fact for all of us to face.
Believe it or not, until very recently, children could marry as young as 14, with parental consent. I am referencing Texas Law, not FLDS practice.
It was actually State Representative Harvey Hildebran who led the push to get the legal age raised from 14 to 16 in order to criminalize the YFZ Ranch.
I'm not saying that I condone children being able to marry at Age 14. I was quite surprised at that law. But to have that law on the books for years, doing nothing about it, and then get it changed for the sole purpose of criminalizing a group and aiding an effort to create probable cause is, to me, immoral, reprehensible, unethical, and a travesty of justice. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing him brought up on criminal charges.
I think a good lawyer can not only get the kids back, but the damages in $ terms from the state of texas will be huge. One can take it all the way to the Hague. Most famous precedent is the Australian Aboriginals case in the 60's
I have been interested in this subject for some time. Indeed, there are many "abuses" that occur to both women and children across our nation, and child protection advocates remove children every day. To me, the situation of these families is every bit as tragic. Yes, the little children seem happy and are physically well cared for. BUT once a sweet little girl reaches puberty, she (with no choice in the matter) will be coerced into an arranged marriage against her will with a man who may be decades older than she is. She could be one of many wives. She is then subjugated into the life of a "baby making machine". Her protective mother can be of no assistance to her now. Both mother and daughter have been programmed into believing that their very salvation is at stake if they don't "do as they are told". As for the boys, there have been multiple stories about the "lost boys" --young men who are cast out due to some "major infraction" such as flirting with a girl of this own age. Again, mama has no ability to help this boy (ill-equipped as he is to make it on his own). He is (it would seem) competition to those older men looking for more wives.
I do not want to judge, but I do want to say to these women and children. The world is alot bigger place than you have been led to believe. Indeed, there is much evil and sin in the world, but not all of us lead lives like that. I have been married to the same man for 20 years and have 2 wonderful children who excel in school aren't involved in drugs, sexual promiscuity or other such activities. We are a strong, cohesive family unit that supports and respects one another. I wish only the best for these women and for their children!!! We have to be discerning in our religious beliefs because when they allow one faction of society to trample on the rights of others it is abusive! May they find a church community that lifts them up and does not tear them down or tear them apart from their loved ones.
Wait ... so you think that if we leagalize polygamy the FLDS men will suddenly marry each of their wives? I don't think so ... why should they? Don't they already have a sacred, spiritual union?
I could care less how many wives a man chooses to take, so making it legal sounds fine to me. However I highly doubt it will stop abuse of the public assistance programs. As I understand it, the women in cc who are on food stamps, etc. claim their husbands have abandoned them, and they don't know where to find them ... how do you prove they're lying? And how would legalizing polygamy help that situation at all?
TWR
There is an assumption that children of polygamy are being abused, but where is the evidence? None has been presented so far. There are ghettos full of teenage mothers but who is taking them into state custody? Does anyone even care about them? A few years ago I saw an Oprah show where she had a 15 year old girl on the show who had four children. Then she brought on a pregnant 11 year old who had an 18 year old boyfriend. No one had removed these clearly endangered children from their homes and there are hundreds of thousands like them. Yet with one phonecall which now appears to have come from a sick 33 year old woman, over 400 children are traumatized by being dragged from their homes and families.
It is nonsense to claim this is about protecting children! This is about endless public pressure to find out what was going on inside the ranch. This is about public curiosity. This is about documentaries being made on the evidence of a disgruntled few who chose to leave. Those who leave are always disgruntled. This is about Dr. Phil having the "two Fawns" on his show and sending his son over to the ranch to try to get in. This is not about protecting children. The children are in more danger now than they have ever been. Foster homes and institutional settings are rife with sexual and physical abuse. Did anyone read the CNN news story about the number of sex offenders living in home daycare and foster home settings?
The children of YFZ are in danger but not from their families. They are in danger from their state.
FROM ABOVE:
"PLEASE NOTE THAT IF A PERSON IS RECEIVING ANY GOVERNMENT ASSISTANCE YOU THEN MUST OBEY THE LAW JUST AS ALL THE OTHERS DO AND POLYGAMY IS AGAINST THE LAW, AS THE MEN OF THAT WORLD KNOWS BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT BY THE SIDE OF THE WOMEN"
First of all. They are not legally married to more than one woman. So, that isn't breaking the law. Secondly the men are not by their side because the government will not allow them to be.
So are we going to drug test everyone one welfare? Because I promise you there are some other people on welfare breaking a law. Why don't we just start by making sure people on government aid actually need aid.
And, if we are going to question who the father of every 14 - 18 year's old child. Then we should start in the high schools. Because, after those kids are born their dad rarely helps support them. And, frequently those girls don't even know who the father of their baby is.
If you think this is not violating the FLDS people's civil rights then...prepare yourselves to be invaded by the government. Everytime your neighbor breaks the law prepare to get arrested also. And, I hope your family are all good people, becuase if they beat their kids, yours are going to go to CPS too.
George Dewey,
Laws are changed and tightened up in the face of specific problematic situations all the time.
Look at all the new laws created just because of the Internet alone.
The 14 age limit was low, but it wasn't really a problem until Warren's gang showed up.
....nothing wrong in fixen' it.
keep sweet texas
stg
Has anyone heard of the 8yr old girl from Yemen granted divorce? This child was forced into arranged marriage by her Parents, and raped and beaten by her husband, then sought out an attorney on her own! Amazing! Would the FDLS supporters also think this situation was OK, just because its the "norm" in other cultures? the practices of the FDLS *regarding Sexual activity with minors* is unacceptable. I'm glad authorities have stepped in!
One morning I watched the coverage on the FLDS The caption on the top of the screen read"Oh those dressess, look at those hair doos" I flipped the channel to the catholic mass coverage and I saw all these strangly dressed men in colorful floor length dresses and strange hats circled around the Pope. These Catholics publicly proclaming that they have had a problem for years of sexual abuse in their places of worship, yet the State of Texas chooses this small strange group of unwanted guests to persecute. Why??
I wish these mothers would dress professionally for these court cases for their children. Why not a dress suit, nice skirt, blouse and jacket? They dressed professionally like that back in the CC acadamy.
You know in all likelihood, neither "side" in this issue is "right". There is a chance that there is abuse that goes on at YFZ that is tolerated or even condoned that needs to be stopped. There is also a good chance that the Texas government is heavy handed and that law enforcement and the justice system itself is flawed and in some ways abusive.
Does one have to really side with either side here?
Melody
Noticed during the YFZ tour on Larry King Live that multiple pictures of Warren hang in every room.
All the state has to prove is that ONE underage girl is pregnant or has given birth and the father is an adult. Easy to do with DNA.
Then ALL the mothers in the household can be charged and loose their children.Since they didn't stop the abuse.
The only sticking point seems to be defining "household".
I think there are a few items about this case which we could all gain from thinking over carefully.
One, I think that everyone in this blog trail agrees that we don't want to see any person or child raped or physically abused.
I certainly agree with the necessity for CPS or an equivalent entity to investigate potential abuses.
However, this has been a complete violation of standard operating procedure. A recorded call was not made to 911 (also, have we all noticed that many of these children and mothers had cell phones IN the compound, but had them taken AWAY once they were IN the state's custody?), but was made to Jessop, a woman sympathetic to potential FLDS abuses. Even she thought the circumstances were very questionable. But the authorities ignored all red flags, as they had been waiting for an opportunity to jump in there.
Once inside, not only were they unable to locate this alleged "Sarah", but their justification for obtaining a warrant for all 416 children was that they saw approximately 20 teenage girls pregnant. Well, to the point made above, does that mean we go into every inner city, every small town, every suburban neighborhood, every bayou, and every Southern forest and abduct all teenage moms, as well?
Why did armed SWAT teams need to forcibly invade a community and tear a quiet community apart? CPS could have conducted a full, audited, overseen investigation without disrupting the families or the community.
Instead, as mentioned above, this WAS about headlines. We're in an election year. We have people like Greg Abbott and Harvey Hildebran trying to make names for themselves and trying to gather support. We're making a spectacle of people who are different.
Can anyone tell me about the practices of the Amish, and I am asking this in ALL sincerity. I think most of us have a pretty positive impression of them. However, if we found out yesterday that teens were marrying and expected to have 6 or 8 children, would we change our opinions of them? Would we raid them? Actually, I guess we don't have to raid them. One of our serial killers did a great job of invading one of their communities very recently. So maybe we shouldn't be so quick to assume we have "the right way", when our "free" society is producing serial killers and foster families who beat and rape.
I know that, to a lot of us, and probably to a lot of the CPS workers and police involved, this raid "felt" like the right thing to do. But it was pretty arrogant and pretty Orwellian. It kind of reminds me of the very beginnings of the Holocaust in Nazi Germany.
Now, one last thing. Before we immediately condemn very young marriages and years and years of back-to-back births, I'd like to share a story with everyone. I was recently involved in setting up a small convention center for a meeting. I noticed one young girl take control of a group of women, organizing a "labeling" of chairs for the following day. The 7 or 8 women around her were all older, and almost none of them knew her. Yet, she easily and comfortably took leadership and got everything organized and running smoothly. She did this without ego and without being a bully. I pointed this out to a parent, not realizing he knew her. He told me that she was the oldest of 16 children. He said the family was very organized, very efficient, and each child had a special talent or area of expertise.
So, before we condemn families or communities who are different, let's figure out if maybe we can learn from them, and not just judge or ramrod them. Please.
Most all Mormons have their Prophets Picture on their the walls to. I see the Pope on Catholic walls. I even see George Bush on peoples was. You can hang a picture on any wall you choose. If I want to hang a picture of a witch named Caroline I will. I think that is a good Idea. Just a thought though I decided not to give her the time of day. She will so be dispised by those who flatter her. Watch and See.
Can someone please tell me how the FLDS at the Yearning for Zion Ranch bury their dead. I have heard reports of a creamtorium being used in the Temple for such a purpose.
Speaking of the Pope, let's not forget what most of his current headlines have centered around: physical and sexual abuse of young children by priests and bishops.
Maybe we shouldn't be too quick to judge FLDS or to rush them into our own system?
Anon 4:31:
The point I was making about the pictures:
Some have wondered if Warren's "resignation" means he isn't the prophet anymore. Not so among his faithful in YFZ. He seems to be hanging on every wall. I think I would rather see the witch.
Happy 26th Birthday, Austin. I hope you weren't in Texas.
George
On another blog post you indicated you were new to the whole FLDS story. Perhaps it explains some of the opposition you are getting here. The FLDS in Texas have a history of deceit with the governing authority. They have continued this pattern in the recent trouble they are having. If you take into consideration the whole warren jeffs fiasco and the fact that these people still hold him as their spiritual leader it may explain some of the actions of the authorities. Had this been done, as many have suggested, and an investigation proceeded without the numbres of officers,sealing off the perimeter, removing all of the children, holding the men 'prisoners' for several days and such most likely there would have been no one to investigate as they would have disappeared rather than face those appointed to enforce the law. Even the local sheriff stated that although he thought he was on good terms with the Bishop at YFZ he discovered that he had been lied to about many things.
I know very little about Texas law. There are indications that the officials have followed the law very close and are justified by state law in their course of action. Whether this is the case or not remains to be seen and I suppose will come out in court as the alleged perpetrators challenge the proceedings. Perhaps in some cases Texas law will be proven to be unconstitutional. All of this will come out in the coming judicial firestorm. This is far from over.
Having observed this play for the past several years I can sympathize in a large manner with the authorities. I don't know how else they could really handle this. If the citizens of YFZ had not established this pattern of deceit and disregard for the law and interests of their neighbors I would be as shocked and indignant as anyone. I truly believe that if they had not followed a course that estabished this reputation the law would have handled it in a manner far different than the existing mess. Everyone here is a loser; law enforcement, alleged perpetrators, taxpayers, citizens rights, and most of all the children involved. There will be no winners in this battle.
George,
Me again...
There was also a call placed to authorities. This "Sarah" just happened to be talking to Flora Jessop, who contacted authorities because she suspected it was a hoax. They (she and the authorities) pieced it together from there.
Again, this isn't about large families and different lifestyles (for the record, I come from a pretty large family myself). I lived in a large city and I have seen some things! I think this country is pretty good at being diverse. It's about abuse.
Please reserve your judgement towards the authorities until this all unfolds. Believe me, we haven't even begun to scratch the surface.
Since you're so interested in this (as we all are), why not take some time to read what those who have left have written? Their words can offer some interesting insight to this whole situation.
fttc, are you out there? If so, can you reccommend a good reference for George? I've read "The Polygamists" (Bistline?) and I'm reading "Escape" (Caroline Jessop). I realize many people try to discredit things that "exes" say, but I think their perspective has a valuable place in this discussion. Unfortunately, it's pretty tough to find books written by folks on the inside.
Just a thought--Won't DNA also give hope to those who were sent away [banished?] and had their families then reassigned to other men? To me, that's the same as kidnapping...but I won't go there at this point. DNA will not only tell who's related to who..but who SHOULD be with who. Maybe the families who left or were sent away can now get their children back..? I am sure this must be terribly scarey and confusing for the children,but DNA should solve a lot of unanswered questions.
--MC--
I agree with fttc. The lack of trust really explains the actions of law enforcement here.
On a somewhat related note, I received an email from an acquaintance on the inside of the situation at the beginning of the "raid". One of the things shared was that there were tunnels underneath the "dorms". The law enforcement would think they had all of the women and children, then would go back in a few hours later and find a hundred more! Upon further investigation, they discovered these underground passages. Can anyone confirm this?
Just curious
While we agree in principle that the allegations and any crimes need to be investigated, I am really hearing a lot of "ends justifies the means" from you.
Leaders of the compound being dishonest does not entitle anyone to waive their Constitutional rights. A President lying to the people of the United States does not waive his right to a fair trial, or even to a legal arrest.
The State has not followed the law, in this case. They have violated both State and Federal procedures. And I am not content to place blind faith in the system that the "truth will come out". The only way that justice will be done is if enough people speak out.
Heck, if the lawyers representing these children are terrified that they will not be able to adequately represent the children and serve their legal needs, then we sure as heck need to be concerned. It's bad enough to keep the children away from parents who may potentially be abusing them, but to keep those children's very lawyers at bay? That just does NOT add up.
I'm telling everyone. Look PAST the FLDS. Put yourself in their position. I am not saying to see things their way. I am not saying to adopt their beliefs. But play devil's advocate (no pun intended). Imagine if you were part of a community within a community, and that your way of life had been singled out. Wouldn't you want the protection of the Constitution of the United States? If the State or Federal Government is given the impression that it can bend the rules based on the public support of their witch hunt, then they will continue to do it in other areas.
Given the current publicity level of this case, I think we can all rest assured that no abused children will be returned to abused families. But we can't go guardrail to guardrail. We can't be so overzealous that we get the good families broken up; we can't get the innocent children of good families sent into foster homes, which could create even bigger problems than the ones which the State claims to be addressing.
This case has progressed far enough that any true abusers will now be caught in the spotlight. But now it's time to protect the innocent and to protect the Constitution, and the U.S. way of life. Let's not let ourselves be destroyed by Salem Witch Trials.
FTC
You know very well that their was other ways to do it. Your as bad as them in doing what they did. They simply were looking for an "in" and they took it, and if it wasn't totally fabricated by CPS, then it was by Flora, Rozita Swinton is just a pawn in the whole thing. Your venom is obvious as you keep defending the flagrant violations of civil liberties, and constitutional rights. I hope you never do something that someone doesn't like.
George,
Sorry to bug you again, but one other thing stuck out to me in your 3:33 post.
You were saying that foster families beat and rape. That seems a pretty unfair generalization. Not to mention the fact that it adds to any hysteria the FLDS people are feeling about the future of their situation.
Why would you write such a thing?
I keep reading here, and seeing on other blogs and articles, the term "keep sweet". The more I read it the more it comes across as a sort of "veiled threat", for lack of a better term. All the women/girls are taught to "keep sweet". To me that translates in to...do as you are told...remember your place...don't make waves...DONT EVER disagree with a male...have no opinion but what your husband tell you it should be.
I am sure others can argue that it's more a mantra of how to be pure to God and obliging to your husband.
I was brought up to be independant,with a willful mind of my own and to express myself with my own opinions. So, this idea of "keeping sweet" is very foreign to me.
Just a thought. Even though I think these FLDS brought this disaster on themselves by lying, I have wondered if this isn't just a trial by the government to see what would happen and maybe get our minds on something else besides the major disaster that is about to crash on our beloved country. There are rumors of concentration camps in remote areas of the United States, and if the government wanted to swoop down on whoever didn't agree with them, how far could they get? Just a thought that occured when george dewey mentioned the holocaust.
Warren Jeffs Confession part 1
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9fePt8-VndY
Part 2 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MQoknKRBqhw
Part 3 http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=u4t1EpxEsvg
Warren Jeffs Explaining POLYGAMY
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fbudqrmFSDs
It is nice to hear from the few people who still have a heart.
Recently a father was arrested for murdering his 3 small children. Isn't it odd that all the little kids in that small town weren't taken into custody. There certainly was more chance of something terrible happening to them than to the 400+ young people being held hostage in Texas.
I once held that State in high regard. I think its halo has slipped.
To send brainwashed,(men and women who are afraid to act or think for themselves for fear of losing a paycheck)armed officers in there to tear tiny, frightened children from the arms of the only people who deeply love and really care about them simply because of the rumors floating around seems pretty cowardly.
It is also likely that many of the cell phones taken from the ladies and children were cameras with evidence that officers or child workers didn't want to get out.
The children will never again have any faith in the so called justice system. Nor should the rest of us. If that can happen to them it can happen to anyone--absolutely anyone.
I've spent the last few days reading this cite and want to thank those of you who are clarifying things for those of us just learning about the FLDS.
The LDS church seems to be concentrating on its own PR during this scandal. I wonder if LDS church could get a much better impression into the media if they would ask what they could do to help the victims of the FLDS scandal, show a stong presence, rather than trying so hard to separate themselves. I also wonder what the LDS church leaders mean when they say the FLDS branch is "not Morman." Why is this? There are so many volunteers helping out; where are organized Morman volunteers? What are the LDS doing to help these victimized by the FLDS?
Thanks again.
Nancy
Anon 8:30
Please listen to what I am saying instead of what you want me to be saying. If you can convince anyone that I am venomous it kind of discredits anything I say doesn't it? What I said was that I can sympathize with the way law enforcement handled this when I look at the larger picture of the FLDS history in Texas. I do know there were other ways to handle it. Hindsight is always 20/20. I am sure that in retrospect the sheriff and state authorities can see what they might do different next time. Every incident law enforcement has teaches them something or they are not doing their job. Waco keeps coming up here and I am sure it was on the minds of many if not all of the officers involved. The Eldorado Success interview with the sheriff showed that he was thinking about Waco and it had an influence on his decisions. I am not necessarily defending the actions of the state. I don't have enough information to do that. My own opinion is that the state yet has some issues they will be called on the carpet for. Whether they are within the bounds of the law or not remains to be seen.
The real point that I made was the disintegrity of the FLDS in Texas and I noticed that you did not address that.
Native
Sheriff Doran in the Success interview denied the existence of tunnels.
I would read the ex-FLDS accounts for what they are; the personal story of one individual. I have not seen the book by Jessop. I have read the one by Bistline and I know there are inaccuracies in it as there would be if I wrote a book about the same topic. We all see from our own little window so keep an open mind and realize that they don't speak for everyone and their experience is unique as everyone's is.
I can't help with any reading material from the other side. A person can possibly obtain some of the discourses and such but even they are hard to understand unless you know a lot of the history. Authors and journalists have dissected and parsed them in the past without coming to accurate conclusions.
It looks like the truth is slowly going to come to light as long as it isn't burried. Flora created this entire fiasco so she can be the savior for these women and children. Thank you Flora, I hope you like the spotlight so much that it justifies over 400 children being pulled from their home.
-fax
Nancy:
The FLDS believe that the Mormons are vile apostates and they teach their children this. Do you really think linking up these mothers and children with "wicked" Mormons are the best thing to do?
Also, I think the Mormons have to be careful. Many FLDS believe the Mormons have been in league with authorities over the years to destroy them. What would it look like if the Mormons linked up with Texas CPS, etc. Pitting Church against Church is not the answer. Depite what anyone thinks of the Mormons, I think they are wise to keep hands off this one.
I can't help with any reading material from the other side.
(meaning from inside FLDS)
fttc, I think you will agree, that if anyone on the inside did write a book,it would be so strongly edited by Warren and friends, that it would be unreliable, or the author would no longer be "on the inside".
Of course the State has a mandate to protect us from ourselves and each other. That's the good thing about government. That's most of the reason why governments exist. If you want to go live somewhere where the state DOESN'T have this mandate, go to Rwanda or Darfur. Go check out some place where the state doesn't have an obligation to protect you and, if you survive, come back and give your opinion.
There are many ineffective governments out there with much larger problems than polygamist ranches. There are some places in the world where the United States yearly murder rate is their murder rate on a daily basis. Atrocities that you would only see in horror movies take place there on a daily basis. I'm assuming you don't live in any of these places, so be glad that you have this protection.
And no, it does not make us property of the state. If you don't like the laws of where you live, either change them or go somewhere that's more favorable to you. And I doubt there's going to be much support in making polygamy and underage sex legal.
I read on a different thread that the FLDS use crematorium/incinerator to blood attone.
The guy who was talking about it helped get it set up for Warren.
Catholic priests were prosecuted in our criminal system for their actions, so yes, it should be the same for this group.
"One can take it all the way to the Hague. Most famous precedent is the Australian Aboriginals case in the 60's "
I'm very interested in this case. Can you, or anyone, point me to more info?
If polygamy is legal there would absolutely be a decrease in abuse. It is not all alleged. Not nearly what the media is throwing around of late but there is abuse. The abuse is largely because it is a closed community. Look into ANY closed community, regardless of local or religion, and you'll find it.
The reason polygamy should be legal is two-fold. One, because it is practiced for religion and harms NO one if practiced by consenting adults. Two, because the public interest would be served in having OPEN and fully-participating members of our community. Abuse of both children and welfare would go down dramatically. Ask any economist or social worker.
George,
".....this has been a complete violation of standard operating procedure. A recorded call was not made to 911 (but was made to Jessop, a woman sympathetic to potential FLDS abuses. Even she thought the circumstances were very questionable. But the authorities ignored all red flags, as they had been waiting for an opportunity to jump in there."
Doesn't matter.
The police felt that they had a credible complaint and it's their job to act on it but...
It's NOT their decision.
That's up to a Judge.
Once the Judge says OK...it's game on
that's how the system is supposed to work
"..but their justification for obtaining a warrant for all 416 children was that they saw approximately 20 teenage girls pregnant..."
again, the police can scream all they want but...
without a Judge, they can't do anything
they only reported back what they observed and even then
they still had no right to take anyone
that's CPS's job
apparently they did their job correctly
or the Judge would have sent the kids right back
"...We're in an election year. We have people like Greg Abbott and Harvey Hildebran trying to make names for themselves..."?
that's absurd.
history has proven
these people are political suicide
"...Why did armed SWAT teams need to forcibly invade a community and tear a quiet community apart? ...."
One word....Waco
oh and BTW it's NOT a community it's a compound
...deal with it
if this happened anywhere else
the Amish, the Park or even CC? (before warren made everyone build all those fences)
they would have simply walked up and....
knocked on the door
keep sweet texas
stg
The reports on this mornings news said they are holding several girls who claim to be 18 but are unable to prove their ages (no birth certificates to be found).
I attend church with a young woman who LOOKS like she is about 12 years old. She is actually 20 years old. These young women have never worn makeup, never chemically treated their hair, etc. It's very conceivable they would look younger than their actual ages.
If neither they nor the state can prove their ages what then? If they are children who were abused they need to be where they are but if they are indeed legal adults then CPS has no jurisdiction over them and they are being held by the government without due process. What a kettle of fish!
The news did not say how many were claiming to be 18 and how many were either documented or admittedly underaged. I would have been interested to know that.
As an interesting side note is some of them apparently hold ID cards but CPS suspects those might be fake. I dispatched for a county sheriff's office and determining if an ID card is real or fake takes about 30 seconds at the DMV terminal. They've had the girls in custody for a couple of weeks so they've had plenty of time to determine for certain if their ID cards are legit or not. Things that make you go "hmmm".
I keep seeing where these women are kept as virtual prisoners and kept from having contact the "outside", etc. but then I read where their CELL PHONES were taken away from them.
Does this seem odd to anybody but me?
FTC
You want me to address the confusion of a lot of people who are scared to death of the armed force closing in upon them? C'mon dude, you have a brain, I would like to see you in the same situation, stand there all real cool like and answer every question without an error. There was many many people there, and I'm sure they were so confused they didn't know which end was up. You ask 416 little children the same question, I promise you'll get 416 different answers, if you don't know that, then you must not have kids. Furthermore, you've been taught that this army is coming to take away your rights, they are your enemy, don't tell me your not scared $hitless!! You have many men and women on that ranch, I'm sure they don't know all the children of the other families. I don't even know them all in my little circle of relatives. I don't think you consider the duress they were under. And as far as the ladies looking like zombies on TV, what the hell do you expect, they are crying for their dear little ones, they have been through something that should mortify anyone with half a brain. Let's see you go though the same experience and get up there and just be Joe Cool. Hell, do you people have half a clue what they are going through? I'm a Father, not even a mother, and I can't fathom the grief and pain. I pray that God will execute justice, on abusers if there was any, and on the once great state of Texas that has given United States of America the blackest eye that can be imagined. FTTC you have my answer!!
"To send brainwashed,(men and women who are afraid to act or think for themselves for fear of losing a paycheck)armed officers"..........most police officers do it to help people, not for the money......
Thank you Anon 10:07
I'm sorry. I thought I had a brain but what is your point? I'm not sure why you addressed this to me specifically.
FTTC
"The real point that I made was the disintegrity of the FLDS in Texas and I noticed that you did not address that."
It was addressed to you, I know you have a brain, your posts bear that out, I just think you are prejudiced too much. I don't know what I would do under the same circumstances, and I don't think you do either, I feel it is heartless, and I'm speaking from my heart, cause I fathom pain and agony at losing those I love, I've been through it, have you? I doubt it due to your apathetic responses here. I don't think the raid was justified, I think they could have handled it much better, and totally different, I suspect that the Ex-FLDS'er are behind or at least a impetus in it, and I hate the loss of civil liberties for anyone. I know our Constitutions authors are rolling in their graves.
> If neither they nor the state can prove their ages what then?
After the DNA test, how about carbon dating tests.
“Excuse us Texans for being a little bent out of shape about this whole thing. Texas is part of the Bible belt and Mormonism is strange enough to most of us. Add the FLDS twist and it's a recipe for outrage.”
First of all, Mormons usually means Latter Day Saints (LDS) are not the same as this group, which I think you recognize but others may not. The compound is of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), a different religion. The LDS “Mormons” are based in Salt Lake City Utah and do not practice polygamy. While the two churches have the same roots (Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon), they are VERY different today on many points of doctrine but chiefly polygamy. Both the FLDS and the LDS do also believe the Bible is the word of God and both are Christians (they worship Christ as the Messiah) as I’m assuming most of the Bible belt does. For info on “Mormons” visit www.LDS.org. I don’t know what to tell you for definitive answers on FLDS beliefs. Even though I have insider information I cannot say that I understand and so much has changed since Warran Jeffs took the helm making the doctrine even more difficult to sort out. I do find far more similarities than differences with mainstream Christians.
I know everyone’s time is limited and you are definitely at a disadvantage since you may not understand the FLDS (or LDS for that matter) culture. But, the best I can tell you is that you will find far more similarities than differences in what you believe if you will educate yourself. Additionally, and this has been hard for me, you have to get educated about FLDS assuming you will NEVER be FLDS. That helps squelch the fear you might feel if you are looking at it as even the remote possibility that your church would take on these practices. Hate is Fear turned inside out and visa versa. Just because you don’t agree or understand is not a permission slip to assume evil behavior.
Once again, you have no evidence that “they” are taking advantage of your fair state.
Additionally, there is NO REASON to pay child support. That would imply that the families are divorced. In point of fact these men are to actually acknowledge, raise and support their children. This is a requirement of the doctrine. I know it’s hard to believe because you’ll probably assume that there are far too many kids for the Fathers to care for. It’s a different family relationship altogether so don't try make the hours-in-the-day test work; it won't. Your standards of what Father should do and must do would not apply here largely because they live the “United Order”. That order requires that the community share all that they have, their time talents and resources.
That economic model is something we do not practice or understand. The “United Order” also has an absolute self-sufficiency requirement; they are not to trade with the Gentiles (everyone but themselves). So, when they seek state assistance they are not living up to the Order themselves. No one is perfect.
I agree that there has been terrible abuse of the state by SOME people practicing polygamy but that happens in every town doesn’t it?
Please stop assuming.
Well said Melody. Better tempered than I have been - thank you.
LOL@BerryKnoll
Won't accept certified birth certificates here, but they were good for 8 men accused in Arizona. What? You need birth videos time stamped? Give me a break. This is a vindicative pre-planned fiasco that has been in the making for 4 years now. Sheriff Doran will not have any trust any longer, and these people will go underground ever further, and yes, I'm positive it was foretold by the leaders, so it's just affirmation in their minds that they are doing the will of God. I can't believe after all our supposed enlightenment and superior civics, that we still resort to this garbage.
“…And if you don't like our government move to Mexico or Iraq. Stop complaining. I love my country and our laws.”
If you love your country and your laws you had better be madder than a wet hen. Your laws, and mine, are under attack. There is no due process here! The little CFS Napoleons just took over. Just because there is a crank call your entire neighborhood can be picked up and taken to a compound of a different sort. Still, I’m far more afraid of people like you that think this is a good idea. Lord help us all.
That's right. Higher taxes here you come !! Write your representatives and tell them to bail out now !!!
George,
Why not just voted State Representative Harvey Hildebran out of office with a wave and smile?
Then again, you can thank Utah's very own Attorney General Mark Shurtleff for making the trip to Texas to show the error of their ways and get that law passed. AG Shurtleff IS up for re-election. Hope he loses over this !
October 27, 1838 Governor Boggs of Missouri issued an "extermination order" legalizing the murder of Mormons in Missouri. Under that order there were many murders committed and entire settlements were invaded & burned while men, women and children were massacred. That extermination order stayed on the books in Missouri until 1976.
This group is a splinter/renegade group of the original Mormons so their history includes the state condoned murder of their ancestors.
There is still debate about whether it was the davidians or the government who were the agressors at Waco if you want a more modern example.
These people's mistrust of the government and of the society who blindly follows government mandate seems reasonable given their history.
The posts seem to find fault with their separatist lifestyle and belief that others outside their group are not to be trusted. Seems like they have good reason to feel like they do.
Leadership of the FLDS shunned outside interference from the law and other law-abiding citizens because they didn't want to be held accountable for what they were doing....which was against the law.
To those of you concerned about their civil liberties, where have you been all this time that the women have been treated like cattle and threatened with physical and emotional abuse by the men within the group?
Funny how none of the men are making tearful pleas to have their children returned. No worries - they can always make more.
Anon 10:42
Somehow we are not on the same page. Where does my prejudice lay? I have relatives involved in this raid that I love dearly. I have in no way given my approval for what has happened. Apparently I must know something about this that you don't know and don't wish to understand really. Maybe apathy was the incorrect word for you to use, I will concede that, but I don't believe my participation on this blog reflects an apathetic attitude. We have two extremes expressed on this blog. One is saying to leave them alone and the other is saying destroy them. I am trying to keep this debate reasonable. Both sides are getting things wrong and I have tried to correct them both. Go to the other threads on the blog and read my entries and see if I am not correct.
I have said for years now that the young marriages need to stop. Children need to be children and learn and grow without being saddled unecessarily with reponsibilities that belong to more mature persons. I don't agree with my relatives involved but it doesn't mean I don't love them. My heart aches for what they are enduring now. At the same time they are suffering the consequences of what I think are very unwise decisions. What can I do? If I follow your advice I defend them in something that goes contrary to my own principles. If I applaud the state of Texas I betray those I love. I really can't do either one can I? Reality and justice lie somewhere out in the middle between the extremes named above.
Some call it 'tough love'. You let others make their own decisions and then let them live with the consequences.
What a hateful thing to say.
"To those of you concerned about their civil liberties, where have you been all this time that the women have been treated like cattle and threatened with physical and emotional abuse by the men within the group?
Funny how none of the men are making tearful pleas to have their children returned. No worries - they can always make more. "
fttc: There is another school of thought that is calling for due process and the prosecution of ONLY the people involved with crime(s) if any. To date there are no charges so the state must return these children immediately.
That fact does not prevent you and I from continuing to work for the prevention of abuse in this closed culture and we both probably have ideas about how to do that. The disaster here is that the state oversteped the bounds of reason and totally violated the constitution. So, many people who don't care about the FLDS one way or another ought to be terrified of the State of Texas and another other state that thinks this is cute or acceptable behavior. Once again, stick to the facts. Was there a crime or wasn't there? If the answer is "no" these kids must go home. The state cannot keep them if they think there might be a crime later.
Maybe FLDS will be more willing to accept ideas now but not from the state! There is a space between apathy and hate and that is where we (you, I and others) will find actual progress.
"We have two extremes expressed on this blog. One is saying to leave them alone and the other is saying destroy them. I am trying to keep this debate reasonable."
"Maybe FLDS will be more willing to accept ideas now but not from the state!"
They arent Ideas....they are laws, forcing underage girls to marry men is illegal in texas, especially when they are obviously having sex with them.
Freedommama,
Where is your apathy towards the women and children?
You know as well as I do that if they returned those children to their parents there would be nothing to keep them here. They would disappear. In other words, they are a flight risk.
It's a little early to arouse panic and start the battle cry. You don't know any more than the rest of us about the process going on behind closed doors.
A little cooperation would go a long way in getting everyone back to where they belong. Cooperation with the laws of the land and cooperation with authorities with giving information about who belongs to who.
They knowingly broke the law for years and dragged their children into it too. Now everyone is furious that there are consequences. We all have to answer to those same laws. Would it be fair to everyone else if they didn't?
"There is still debate about whether it was the davidians or the government who were the agressors at Waco if you want a more modern example."
Cops show up with a warrant to search compound for illegal automatic weapons, people that run compound dont believe they have to abide by state and federal firearm laws and open fire on police. Thats not an assumption it is shown in the video filmed by the local media.......where is the debate about that? There is none.
Does anybody know if the FLDS dairy operation and other enterprises are solely for their own use or if they generate income with them with outside markets?
freedom
The judge decided there was abuse involving children at the compound according to Texas law. The evidence of this was the underage marriages. These actually exist. Had the FLDS members acknowledged that, yes these girls are underage and married to so and so, there would have been charges brought against individuals. How can the perpetrators be charged if they don't know who they are? How can a decision be made as to which children are at risk and which are not? The DNA data is going to enable the charges to be preferred. How else can it be done. The FLDS have already exhibited unwillingness to be honest about it. They have destroyed the chance for the judge to have any confidence in their word to the point that she decided even birth certificates from them were unacceptable.
Perhaps civil liberties are being trampled. If they are someone is likely to be very rich as the FLDS are a litigous group although it is mostly the attorneys that have ended up with the money. I really don't know how I can improve on what is being done.
I find it disgusting that the men involved in the young marriages don't have the courage to stand up and admit to the marriages so the rest of the children can go home. Maybe all of them really are involved. If so they are about to lose all of their children.
There is a new website in circulation .... captiveldschildren.org
They are asking for donations to get their children back. Just what they need ... more money.
I for one will NOT be sending money.
I am amazed at how many people believe what ever the media says and what ever the CPS says-all before proven guilty. Did you guys never study out constitution? And that stupid tale about the BED- it was a place where members could lie down if they had fasted and the sermon was getting long and they felt faint. They also have them at the regular Mormon church. Such a bunch of crap presented- guilty until proven innocent? And how should the nursing babies be abused? They were looking for a 16 year old- why did they take the whole town?
Well I know what I would do if I saw something developing like that. It took a couple of days for them to take them all... I d dress my kids as normal people and leave my long dress behind, take all the money I could find and walk out of that place thru the woods and have somebody meet me and get the hell out of Texas. I hope some escaped.
quietshc
Uh, warren tried that. Didn't work too well for him.
Hardy har har....yeah, why didn't they just go into their closet and throw on some shorts, a t-shirt and some flip flops?
Anyway, street clothes or not, any one of them would stick out like a sore thumb in Eldorado or anywhere else within 30 miles.
3:44
I'm a member of the regular Mormon church and have attended congregations in Georgia, Alaska, Washington, Idaho, Oregon, Utah ... several states. I have never seen a bed in any LDS chapel. I've never seen a bed in an LDS temple either. In the regular mormon churches they have couches and arm chairs in the foyers if anyone were to need a comfortable resting place for some reason.
Nobody knows for sure what the bed is to be used for except for those that used it. They are not telling. This may seem vulgar but they reported the bed sheets were "disturbed" and there was a female hair in the bed. Testing the sheets for the presence of bodily fluids would either prove or disprove the allegation that it is used for consumating marriages inside the temple.
Why is it that some of you think you're experts on this whole situation because you watch the evening news?
QUIT RUSHING TO JUDGEMENT!!
If the media changed sides and ran an expose on the FLDS, it would compromise the FLDS victim status and you'd have people jumping the fence all over the place.
If you're all such advocates for the children and those poor women you see on your television sets, why are you so opposed to finding out for sure that they're not being abused? Would you want them returned if they are being physically and/or sexually abused? In many cases you can't have it both ways. They can't be returned to the only life they've every known and also be safe from physical harm.
I realize that not all are being abused, but the FLDS has stonewalled authorities. How can they pick out only those being abused if the "adults" won't even tell who belongs to who and be honest about their ages?
It was all or nothing from the start and that was the decision of the FLDS. They tried to call Texas' bluff and they lost. If you want to be mad at someone about all of the children being in Texas' custody - be mad at their parents. They forced Texas' hand - yes, it bears a lot of similarity to Waco in that respect.
Another thing, has it ever occurred to you that the women returned to the compound rather than stayed with their children out of fear of the men? Has it ever occured to you that the men put the women up to their television appearances? Why wasn't there even ONE man pleading for his childrens' safe return?! If they are innocent of wrong doing, then why the hiding? It reminds me of the criminal heading to court and covering his face with his jacket in shame...just doesn't pass the smell test. If the men aren't guilty of the charges, they'll be exhonorated.
This isn't about religion and their right to practice their faith. It's about whether your right to practice your faith should trample a child's rights to be physically safe.
Just a question here to clarify something...
People keep making statements to the effect of "if it was just one girl complaining why did they take the children of the whole town"?
As far as I can see, that logic doesn't really apply to this situation because the way the ranch is arranged isn't really like a "town" with a bunch of single family homes. It's a handful of homes with many, many people in each. Am I right in this?
Melody
"I keep seeing where these women are kept as virtual prisoners and kept from having contact the "outside", etc. but then I read where their CELL PHONES were taken away from them.
Does this seem odd to anybody but me?"
I am appalled. What could possibly be the reason for cutting them off from the world, their support systems and legal counsel? Can anyone help me with this? I am really trying to understand CPS's reasoning here. I know they have a job to do but these "little" matters are not court ordered. They seem to be so darned iron fisted about it all. What are they so afraid of?
What is better, being property of the state and being safe, or being forced to be the property of a 55 year old man?
freedommama,
The women weren't answering the questions the authorities were asking without running it by their husbands (on the cell phones). The whole reason they were taken off of the ranch was to separate them so they could get some honest answers.
Those in charge knew that as long as they (the women) were allowed to contact their husbands, they would be expected (by their husbands) to do so. This way, the CPS came off as the bad guy when all they were trying to do was get them to answer the questions straight.
This made the adults look even more guilty, wouldn't you say? Whether the women were in on marrying off young teens or just stood by and let it happen, they took part and the men are trying to help them cover their tracks for them.
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