Tuesday, April 15, 2008
YFZ allows media on sacred ground.
I am disgusted. Why will the leaders at YFZ now allow the media to come within their ranks. They have been so reclusive but now that they have a need for the media it is all right to allow them inside? Couldn't they arrange for an interview outside the hollowed precinct? I see a double standard here. One might argue that the place has been desecrated so it doesn't matter anymore but if this is the case why the escort and why the restriction on allowed questions?
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83 comments:
Can you post a link? I haven't seen anything on allowing media in...
I have tried to bring truth into this issue. This was my intention for posting from the start. In the past I have made posts that did not support the course of the FLDS. Lately I have been posting more that has supported them. I find it interesting how that changes. The justification for the FLDS to put aside their principles in the past 7 years and get to where they are now has only been matched by the allegations and inuendos of the antis since this raid took place. They are two extremes and neither is correct.
In the history of the religious group from which the FLDS sprung in the early 1990's it has always been the policy to stand aside and allow truth to fight the battle. "A lie will travel over the village while truth is getting its boots on." has been the addage. I see this publicity stunt by the FLDS as a departure from this. I am not surprised but I am disgusted. If all is right and there is nothing to hide why use the media like this? It smells too much like Flora et al. to borrow another posters term.
Are you serious FTTC???? Do you have children???? If my kids were taken away from me there's no stop to what I would do to get them back.
Would I open up my reclusive household? YES! Would I get my face on national television? YES!
I would do this and so much more.
You sit back in your place of convenience and question the tactics of mothers who are trying to be reunited with THEIR children.
You've whored after what the media has spoon fed you and you've loved it and you continue to wallow in it until your senses are delighted. These are REAL people with REAL emotions.
If you can't see the tragedy in all of this you've missed your own point.
No, I've missed nothing. I have relatives involved in this that I love and am broken-hearted over. I see the tragedy in it. But at the same time I know how the leaders there have claimed they cannot allow anyone into the ranch on principles that they claim affects their salvation. It would have been very easy to set up an interview outside the ranch. Authorities are quoted as saying they are free to come and go. The women could have refused to leave the children. Several arrests of women who were too devastated to leave would have created much more sympathy. Short of this a demonstration at the location of the children would be much more effective. I am sure the mothers are devastated by what is happening. I see this being cheapened by what they are doing in these interviews.
If you click on the title of my post it will take you to the Tribune article.
The article hit the front page of DRUDGE report this morning. Don't know if it's the same one you mention? I find it interesting that the caption under the picture they use is, "mother of three boys" ... also in the article they mentioned other mothers ... of boys. Another mother mentioned was said to have three children, no mention of male, or female, and all those mentioned have fewer than 5 children.
So much has been made of "young girls", and large family groups during this thing ... they are clearly trying to spin for the press.
I agree with you fttc ... it looks like they're using the press in a big way.
I think FTTC has a point. If the general population would polute their heaven on earth - how has that changed?
Yes, we would do anything to get our children back, but opening it to CPS and opening to th media are two different things.
They are tossing a coin in the air - hoping to cull media or widespread heathen support for their plight. Why now?
I'll tell you why - THE WOMEN.
Earlier poster was correct - damn the sacred ground - give me my children!
You sit back in your place of convenience and question the tactics of mothers who are trying to be reunited with THEIR.....
4/15 6:am.
I question whether it was the mothers who made the decision to let the media into the compound. if it was it is a very good sign.
I'm still not buying it. To have children removed from their parents is tragic. I cannot imagine being seperated from my own. And yes, I would fight to get them back. I am not a woman and maybe that is clouding my perception.
I think men rely more on logic so I look at the facts and can't make sense of them. While the CPS were trying to interview the children at YFZ the officials said the residents were playing the 'eggshell game'. Why? When one wife was aked here age she had to ask her husband before she could answer. When the children were removed and being interviewed they were being coached by the parents. Why? Are the women so naive that they couldn't see this would have an effect on whether they could keep the children? Why is it that only now they are concerned and devastated? Did they really believe they could play the authorities for fools and have a chance at keeping the children?
These are the quetions running through my mind when I see they are now playing the media themselves and this is the source of my disgust.
Uncaduff you make a very good point. If it was the women that let the media in without the approval of the men it would be a very good sign. If this is what is happening then it makes sense. I just don't believe it is the case.
If they didn't want their children taken away from them, they should have NEVER brought this non-sense to Texas. I personally think the mothers should all be charged with child endangerment. These children are being absolutely destroyed by this cult. This isn't religion, this is organized pedophilia, enabled by sick adults - both men and women. Plural marriage is illegal in Texas. Child abuse is illegal in Texas. You break the law, you suffer the consequence. You can't build a compound with tall enough walls to escape justice in this state.
I still don't understand why they think they are going to get a lot of sympathy from this. The interview where they are crying and describing the situation was really silly looking. They did not look sincere. I'm not saying they are NOT sincere - it just didn't look convincing.
The video shows one of the women claiming her 7 year old child said "The CPS people, they lie. All they do is tell us lies, blah blah blah" - that was so fake sounding. Sounds like the moms were coaching their kids and setting up this whole show.
Again - they wouldn't have these problems if they stopped the child brides and followed the laws. I can't have any sympathy for that mother, when I suspect that she'll force her 7 year old daughter into marriage a a few short years.
fttc, I'm afraid your too right.
Why, after several days, are mothers coming out of the woodwork claiming to have been away? Where did they come from? Is it possible that many of these children were taken from their "less worthy" parents in UT AZ. I had heard the rumors that this had happened within the FLDS.
I have read Under the Banner of Heaven so that I could gain a better understanding of the faith.
I find it hard to believe that people could believe that an angel named Moroni came and told Smith about these tablets, then there was a white salamander, then these magic gazing stones that he looked at while his head was in a hat so that he could interpret these golden tablets in an ancient sancrit. Then the tablets dissapeared. Then later in life, Smith found that polygamy was right, even though his wife was adamantly opposed.... It mystifies me that people would believe this and also the whole YFZ Jeffs deal.
On the face of it, it sounds amazing... and then to justify a young girl having to marry a man 4 times her age when she is not even able to make the decision for herself.. and we all know it is illegal. I just can't get it.
s
S:
Your historical details are nothing short of laughable. Prior to posting on an open blog/forum, get your information straight so people take you seriously.
Be strong FTTC, I think you're going to make it.
Maybe they feel like that everything has already been desicrated so what's the point of trying to keep it sacred anymore. I think its interesting that they are letting th media in. Maybe you should have some compassion. This is very sad that these kids are being so violated and having their lives intterupted my the government.
I guess I figure they have nothing left to lose to allow the media into the compound since the police already descrated the temple when they used the jackhammer to open the doors and then thoroughly ransacked it.
Further, STILL there has been no transcript of the call to the abuse shelter. I still feel, after TX little Waco stunt a few years ago, that this whole thing is manufactured for the state to get in and look around and seize children. After all, it surely must be abusive to have kids who don't watch TVs and slather on makeup right? How sad those children are being deprived of partying and owning video games. I live in TX and still think this whole situation is suspicious and smacks of communism. Said to the husband last night maybe it was time to move out of this twisted state. Religious freedome? NOT in this country by golly. Who cares that this entire country was founded on those principles...
I do not believe underage marriages are happening the way the media reports and so long as the girl is 16 with parental consent it is legal. Come on, how many pregnant sluts are walking around the public schools at 14, 15, and 16? LOTS. There are plenty of girls at those ages thinking about having babies and getting married. So why does everyone assume the teenagers at YFZ are any different, especially when family life is what they know? I doubt parents are rushing to marry off their girls the minute they hit menarche.
One thing is certain, if the children weren't abused before they were taken from YFZ they sure are now. CPS is about as delicate with children as a bull in a china shop. So much for innocent until proven guilty...that is obviously not the case in this situation. Not one iota of proof of abuse has thus been offered up. Maybe there were some abuses going on but where is the proof?
B in TX
I keep reading posts that call the FLDS a cult. While I do not believe in their religous views I think calling it a cult is a way to devalue their belief system. Don't forget that these people believe much of the same things as the LDS, would you call them a cult too? So be kind and don't dismiss them so negatively as a cult. I realize it's easier for people to use the "cult" label when they don't understand something, but nobody is labeling you as ignorant-hum, just soemthing to think about.
Lets see. All over Texas there are single moms
that have their kids thru multiple relationships.
The men are often ex-cons and many deal in
drugs. Thus the kids are placed in dangerous
situations. The daughters are sexually active
early and often PG by 15. They go on welfare
like their moms and grandma's. Rarely are the
kids taken from their moms, mostly if the moms are arrested for drugs themselves.
Does anyone see the forest for the trees here?
Jail all the men if Texas wants to play storm
trooper, but let the moms & kids be reunited.
Should they wait till a child dies under foster
care?
This is what I read about how it was revealed to him.
It does sound laughable, doesn't it?
I'm amazed.
S- you are right about Mormon beliefs. If you study the history of the church and Joseph Smith's life, it all starts to look more and more laughable.
Be careful discussing the LDS beliefs, it is unfair to ridicule something you don't believe and deem it laughable... do you not believe Moses got his instructions and ultimately the 10 commandments from a burning bush, did he not part the red seas? This is not a discussion of the LDS faith, it is about the children affected by the beliefs of a small portion of a disassociated sect of LDS and how this will effect policy when handeling this type of issue in the future.
They are trying to drum up public support for "living free the American way". It's political. They aren't a naive bunch of "sweeties".
They (FLDS) are as evil as the rest of us.
Emily in NC
Anony 9:13 said: Why, after several days, are mothers coming out of the woodwork claiming to have been away? Where did they come from? Is it possible that many of these children were taken from their "less worthy" parents in UT AZ. I had heard the rumors that this had happened within the FLDS.
I've also heard reports that they shuffled children from their birth mothers/fathers to more deserving parents. . . so how is what the government doing any crueler to these children right now?
Emily in NC
"Earlier poster was correct - damn the sacred ground - give me my children!" -- Atar_i
....it's all they got.
keep sweet texas
stg
Emily in NC said;
I've also heard reports that they shuffled children from their birth mothers/fathers to more deserving parents. . . so how is what the government doing any crueler to these children right now?
This time they are offered "due process of law"
What the FNLDS has done to rip families apart has been equally as traumatic for the families, but it wasn't 400 kids all at once.
Fttc-
I totally agree with you. That was the same impression I got when I saw the video clip.
Yes, it is very tragic, but I couldn't shake the feeling (as bad as it sounds) that the whole thing was just a giant ploy for sympathy.
Any of you people who are defending these mothers truly disgust me. They are fully complicit in organized child abuse and mind control. The fact that they themselves grew up this way is no excuse. The mothers should be charged as accomplices to any crimes being pressed upon the leadership. Sick, sick people. Those of you defending them are either FLDS yourselves, or are just very stupid and ignorant to the facts.
It's funny to me that people on this blog keep using as a standard all the bad and wrong things that are going on in this world as a standard by which they judge the FLDS. Of course there are underage pregnant moms out there who are losing their choices. Is that what we want to shoot for??
Let's compare these young mothers to other girls outside who are studying and learning, trying to make good grades so they can get into a good college. Then they'll go on to chose whatever future they'd like. Maybe they will be doctors or teachers.
Not that being a wifer and mother isn't a very high calling. That's what I am - and college-educated.
more than a century ago a lie was told. because of that lie, children are now suffering.
Just watched the MSN clip where the 3 FLDS gals are telling about their experience with Texas CPS (in other words, "lying for the Lord").
If they plan on manipulating the situation using the press, they need to get some acting classes - STAT!!
But seriously, the fake crying without tears just shows you how stupid they think we are...or how emotionless they actually are about all of this.
Native Texan ...
Nope ..... it simply shows how brainwashed they are, bless their hearts. It's the husbands who think we're that stupid. I really feel for those women ... that said, they should be taken away as well, and reprogrammed. They have seriously put their children's lives in danger, w/out knowing how much. They were probably children in similar situations in the last
decade , or so.
This all needs to stop ... stop the cycle!!!!!
The sins of this nation are being laid bare in preparation for the judgment of God to fall on it...
The same week that the state of Texas abducted these children, we heard of 6 girls beating another girl unconscious and a girl hitting another girl so hard with a chair she was knocked out cold. The Lord is showing America what it's society has made their girls into to contrast it to the gentle spirits of the FLDS ladies.
Also just today America orgasmically waited for the arrival of the leader of the mother of harlots to arrive, while those who have tried to follow God's laws as practiced since the early days of the restoration are being talked about as "freaks" and "perverts".
God is leaving this nation without excuse when He makes bare His arm in judgment. Watch and be ready!
fttc,
Those willing to observe what the current leadership has done and is doing will see plenty of contradictions and hypocrisy. Obedience, particularly to “priesthood authority” is more important than integrity. Something is only “sacred” if it furthers the agenda of the leadership. If it is for the prophet, anything goes. Think for a moment that we as flds are supposed to give up our worldly ways and enjoyments and not be a part of their (the world’s) way of life, yet Warren was in a red Cadillac, wearing shorts, and had just gone to several amusement parks when he was arrested, all items he had condemned and judged others for..
The flds leadership has tried to control the lives of the members in order to “save” them. Now, they are trying to control public opinion to bring back the children, so sacred land or not, invite the media.
Did you notice that all the women interviewed are over 30, don't have very many children, and all but one are one of Merril's daughters (of the interviews that I saw). Merril's daughters have always been good at drama and playing on the emotions to control others (not that it isn't hard to be dramatic and emotional when your children have been taken away). Don’t tell me they are not doing this to manipulate public opinion, much the same way the followers have been emotionally manipulated... but we may lose sight of what is really going on here, which I believe may be Divine Justice. Let me explain:
I'm devastated by what is happening to many innocent children, however, are the actions of the State worse for the children than Warrens reassigning of new fathers to many of these and other children, some of them more than once? He said the former fathers were not "worthy" based on his "inspiration." The State has based their actions on their "observation." Warren did what he did trying “save” these children from fathers that couldn’t take them into heaven. The State is trying to “save” them from what the feel is an abusive society, one that takes away the free agency of those within. Both are traumatising many innocent women and children. I only hope that the truth will come out, and I feel for and pray for my family members who are involved.
I firmly don’t believe that pedophilia was and is the reason for underage marriage (which I’m against). I do believe that it is all about CONTROL. Marry them young, have a few children, and they are not going to leave. Reassigning of wives, and often marrying the daughter of a lady to her new husband are also for control. Yes, it can be called rape, but the real problem is the systematic removal of individuality and free choice in the name of “perfect obedience to authority.” At the very least, I hope this will help those in the flds realize that they do need to follow the laws of the land. Unfortunately, it will most likely be viewed as religious persecution.
I am not justifying what the state has done, but the removal of personal freedom is an abuse, and those committing the act should answer for it. If this is what is needed to stop the control and abuse, though it be painful, I think it should happen. I just wish that there was not so many innocent children caught in the cross fire.
IITMOC
Anon 11:04
Thanks for the encouragement. I will be OK now.
Quiet
As always your insight is phenomenal. The point about divine justice is right on the mark. There is no doubt that these folks have put themselves in the position they are in. What is happening now is just what warren has been doing for years with the families. I too doubt fully the pedophilia charges. As I have said before; someone who has not been very intimate with their religion will never be able to understand. There have been posters on this blog who sincerely wanted to understand and through many conversations they have gained some inkling of the FLDS and how it is put together. After seeking out the truth they admitted they could see the other side of it althought they of course still did not agree with the religion. Those on this blog who will come out swinging against the people of the FLDS really do not have a clue.
I have spoken to LDS members that have been watching the news and they are very sympathetic. The interviews with the women are having an effect. It is interesting though that when I tell them more about what is going on they have told me they thought something was amiss with the interviews but could not put their finger on it. I really hope the children can be reunited with their families and that the families will see what they need to do to stop those in control.
fttc, I just watched the morning news, I can see what your talking about. these girls answers couldn't possible be scripted under the circumstances, but they sure sounded like it. it reminded me of one of uncle Fred's plays he used to put on.
they were not at all convincing.
I'm not trying to be critical, it's just the way it struck me.
i saw where they have taken a few busses of kids to the Kal Farley Boy's Ranch in Amarillo. That is a WONDERFUL fascility.
I have been thinking again. Don't panic. :-) Could it be the extremes the FLDS have gone too have removed true emotions from these women? Perhaps it is not so much fake as it is the best they can do at expressing themselves. I know there are some of my family members in Hildale/CC that act a lot like this. They have had to detach themselves to the point that something as collossal as losing all their children can only bring about a tearless cry. A thought so sad it is hard to voice but I am afraid too much the truth the more I think upon it.
As Quiet has said it is/has been about control. Having said this now who do you hold accountable for the evils involved? Were all the German people responsible for the crimes committed by the Nazi leadership of WW2 era? How do you separate the victims from the perpetrators? Do you execute the entire community of adults, firguratively speaking of course? Texas is about to find out why Utah and Arizona have tried to confine their prosecutions to individual cases of abuse.
Do these same FLDS mothers mourn the expulsion of their adolescent and teenage sons, still and forever their children, when they are kicked out of the compound by the old men in charge? Do they publically lash out at these old men like they do at the government (which is actually trying to make sure their children are safe)?
I don't hear these pitiful women crying over those children removed from their lives by FLDS leadership. A mother's heart is not that cold, is it?
Anybody noticed this irony?
As a mother myself to four boys and a girl, and as someone who believes in reflecting to my children the unconditional love that God shows me, when my children sin or do something wrong, sure it hurts me. . . but do I turn them out forever and cut them off from all they've ever known? NO! It's redemption and unconditional love that saves us and our children when we have failed or sinned. Conditional love and condemnation will NOT save anyone - especially not the son turned out for reasons he cannot quite understand in his own heart.
So FLDS mothers, why beg to have back the children when you have already condemned and expelled other precious children all in the name of old men needing more wives? Seems to me you don't really want your children badly enough to do whatever you can to save them ALL. . . And you don't mind your daughters being taken off and forced to live with and have sexual intercourse a man three times her age. FLDS mothers, I think you don't really care about your children that much by example of years of throwing your children to the proverbial wolves. The government's the least of your problems. . . your convictions are screwy.
(Remember - redemption is what saves. Think about it in your own life. Not condemnation. Condemnation just controls and scares. Redemption is life-giving and freeing.)
If the FLDS really valued their children, we wouldn't hear about the "Lost Boys" and these other sad cases of children who have grown up to be successful in fleeing this cult.
I truly question the concern and care that the FLDS membership has for children, even their own.
Emily in NC
fttc and Quiet, looking at this from the outside, the things you are talking about - absolute control, victims learning to detach or disassociate themselves from their own emotional response, a family system where everyone is complicit in the abuse - those are absolutely the markers of sexual, physical, and emotional abuse in any family.
That's one of the reasons it is so hard to believe any of the FLDS defenders, not because their families are so different from outside families but because abusive families are so similar inside and outside of the religion.
One of the problems for anyone dealing with an abuse survivor is that their response to things can be so different from people who have not been abused. Their body language, dissociative response to memories, over-response to current events, and sometimes their continuing attachment to their abusers can make them seem untrustworthy.
I think CPS is doing the right thing. First of all pural marriages are illegal in Texas. Take it else where please! Those children didn't even know what to do with crayons. I live very close to Fort Concho and couldn't beleive that these children are so deprived of so many wonderful good things life has to offer. They are stuck on the compound and not exploring life and what have you. Take the children and let them prosper!!!! They are basically in prison on that compound.
Have you ever been on a farm and watched a chicken that has been wounded?
If so you will have seen all the other chickens go over and peck and peck at it, clucking away until it often dies.
That bird had a problem. Maybe it deserved to die as it sounds like some think about the FLDS mothers.
No mother knows what she would do if several armed men came to her door to separate her from her children. It's easy to calculate what if. . .,
however, if in fact you were really under that stress, not knowing what would happen to your children if you intervened you too, would be very careful of what you did or what you said, especially when those armed men, and the ones in the armored tank nearby were looking for an excuse to take them away.
I hope at some point they talk about the underage boys they kick out in order to have enough of a man/woman ratio.
Rosa
Have you had experience dealing with the victims of abuse as you describe? If so are you speaking from experienc or theory? I am wondering if you would comment more specifically on the actions of the mothers as they have been seen on national level in these interviews.
I haven't seen the footage (I don't watch TV news) so I can't comment on that.
But I have some personal experience with abuse survivors - I think most people do, only unless people choose to share their stories, you don't know.
But the dissociation is a very common response, as is depression - and both of them mute emotional expression. I had a friend who could talk in a very flat, even tone about years of really horrific abuse, even show you her scars.
And people usually love their family even when the family dynamic is horrible, too. I had a girlfriend who continued to go to family dinner every Sunday for years and years and sit across the table from her abuser. She didn't feel that she could accuse him, because it would tear the family apart, and she felt that because she knew the truth she was responsible for watching over and protecting her younger siblings and cousins.
And one more example - a friend of mine was raised by a mentally ill mother and a series of more and less violent and predatory stepfathers. Her mother loved the children fiercely and was very concerned that CPS would take them (because they were not fed or properly clothed, were sometimes beaten, etc). So she moved them around, often to very isolated rural homes, and kept them away from their other relatives and neighbors.
You can see the similarities, I think. There's nothing new in the allegations against the FLDS, it's just wrapped up in a more exotic package.
WHY WOULD ANYBODY WANT TO MARRY THEIR COUSINS.......WOULD YOU WANT THIS DONE TO YOU? THEY NEEDED TO LIVE THEIR OWN LIVES, WHAT MADE THEM BETTER THEN US ANYWAY?
Wow, Quiet (Iitmoc) and Fttc. Once again your posts echo what I was thinking.
I also noticed the lack of emotion in the emotions, (if that makes any sense.) I completely agree with Rosa about the abuse. I would not be surprised if those women were commanded to go before the media and cry and say as much against the state as they could.
Hello Texas Native and CPS insider. The call from the little girl did not come through Statewide Intake it came in to the police. In turn state wide intake was called and thats how CPS was notified. The Texas Family Code states that CPS has a fiduciary responsibility to the public. So all cases of SUSPECTED child abuse and neglect is to be reported and CPS has to investigate them. They have time frames to meet and make contact. If there is not enough information to safely close the administratively then the case is passed down to investigations. The obvious is that folks in El Dorado have been suspicious of this group. CPS does just go around bogarding and flaunting their authority. It is the duty of CPS to make sure that kids are safe, and protected. For all we know the young person that made the call be on a "vacation for an undetermined length of time" undergoing discipline and re-education at a polygamous enclave in Idaho. That was the case with Ruby Jessop.
Removing the children I think at this point is the best thing because if CPS turned a blind eye they would be criticized but they are being critized because they didnt turn a blind eye. I grew up in foster care and it really isnt that bad I think the hardest part if the state gains managing conservatorship will be the adjustment the kids are used to a certain lifestyle and we can only hope that their DNA is scripted to handle this culture shock
I think that some of you have taken the issue and turned it into something that it is not.
Girl that get pregnant at a young age in "normal" society do so at their own will
also my mother was a welfare receipient crack addict prostitute and had several children by many different men but i chose not to follow in her foot steps i am a single mother with one child i am in college live in public housing receive foodstamps and do not date my child is two and i have been accepted into graduate school statistically not all woman on welfare intend to stay on welfare they want a fare shack just like others in society and if they are involved with CPS in Texas just because their children have not been taken from the doesnt mean they arent receiving services CPS has alot of programs designed to help keep families together when appropriate
now you say if this is the case then why not keep these families together CPS cannot do a family group conference with any of these individuals because they cannot say without a shadow of doubt that these children will not be harmed so they do what the have to do cross you "t's" and dot your "i's"
I agree with Rose that abusive families isolate I was involved in a very abusive situation and my abuser isolated me from my created family i had my own reality were i believed the abuse didnt happen i was in essence brainwashed when i was finally arrested for fighting back i had my taste of getting away from and people started telling me that this was not normal i knew that but i had gotten to the point where i began to accept it as normal when i left a second time i said i could do this i left the third time for good but i had to resist the urge to go back i longed for love and that was his way of showing me "love" i realize today that it is not love but it took a lot of counseling if the women cooperate with authorities they can get counseling and learn that children should not be forced to marry and copulate with men 4 times there age it is not right
and i highly doubt that these girls make it to 16 before they are married and pregnant if you listen to women that have left the you will know that these are underage girls being forced to marry and procreate with these nasty old men
it would not be so much of a problem if they all were consenting adults but they arent i cant say what i would do if i were a follower of this religion but i was raped at the age of 6 7 8 by men and i did not appreciate nor did i like it and i cant imagine my daughter having to endure my own abuse or the abuse from the flds relligion
the children will be alright i am sure they are resilient
i tried to address all the commments but this is getting long
Bravo!! Kudos to you, anon 9:13!!
my mistake- CPS doesnt just go around bogarding and flaunting their authority.
I'll tell you what really concerns some of you bitchin' yahoos: All these years of free-for-all outright lying about the FLDS people because you knew their policy was to answer nothing. You knew you could say whatever you wanted and it would go completely unchallenged and the whole world would sympathize with you. Now with that policy somewhat changed, your exaggerations and lies are going to be challenged by their opinions, and suddenly you are going to look like the dip sticks you really are. So "fell through the cracks" maybe you should slip under a rock instead. You operate just how typical playground bullies do: pick on the helpless and then act like you were the one being harrassed when help arrives. So spout away. There appears to be an army here to challenge your damnable misrepresentations now.
11:02 anon,
I would wait till this whole thing shakes out before you start your victory dance.
Most people in this country didn't even know that your way of life existed. There's a huge shock value going on right now. The reason so many people are listening to those poor women you are parading in front of the tv is because of morbid curiosity.
Most folks who know the lurid details aren't sympathetic to the adults - they're repulsed.
You've tried to use the media just like the men in the FLDS try to use the women and it's going to backfire...soon.
Some of these children will be returned and some won't.
Anyway, nobody really wins in this sad situation.
-frustrated
Anon 11:02
The truth hurts and I feel your pain. I could understand some indignation if what I post is really misrepresentations but I don't understand your full out anger. (I get the anger idea from the name calling and specifically mentioning me when so many other posters have said many more negative things than I.) I am glad you have the opportunity to vent here, it really helps to release the pressure. Now that you have vented could be so kind as to point out the misrepresentations so others will know what it is I have gotten wrong? If I have been wrong I am not above admitting it, are you?
Man, some of the comments written by " Specific" persons have some anger issues, and obviously have some hidden personal issues of their own! Don't we all! Wow, to attack with such words, I WOULD REMAIN ANONYMOUS TOO!! But back to "Freedom of Speech!! Just my opinion!!
The families ARE the abusers. We are talking about a culture and society where it is perfectly normal for an 18-year-old young woman to have two and three children. She is 'volunteered' to marry. She DOESN'T get a say, and usually this is a much older man.
According to the laws of the state of Texas, no child can marry with or without permission of parents if they are under the age of 16.
If you'll notice, there are very few young men in photos and in conversations. They seem to be driven off.
This is a society which flaunts the law, drives off young men, uses women and children as pawns all under the 'guise' of religious freedom. Give me a break!
These children need to be removed. Their parents need to be identified through DNA testing and these very young girls need to be educated about what is NORMAL and what is not. CONSENTING means having enough sense and experience to understand what you are consenting to.
RELIGIOUS FREEDOM MY LEFT TOE!!!
to anon 16/11:02.
STREET git back on yer own thread.
I've watched the clips of the women, and noted that there is a different, almost european hint of an accent - can anyone tell me what this is?
Would you say that the women who are on camera and a standard representation of the average set of women who are in the FLDS (mannerisms, speech patterns, cadence)?
Atar
First you have to remember that the women you are seeing are those considered the most worthy/elite among the FLDS. Basically this means they are those who have learned how to work the ropes in the system. They really don't give a fair representation any more than the elite in American society at large are a representation of average Americans.
The accent you are speaking of I think is a result of 'keeping sweet'. The constant suppression of actual feelings and words that would express them leads them to unconsciuosly choose every word and its pronunciation before speaking them. Even down to the intonation of each syllable is scripted in thier mind to match a certain pattern of thinking. They must say each word with sweetness and it gives their dialect a unique accent.
Contrary to one posting, no mothers have been arrested nor am I aware of any fathers having been arrested. There are physicians on site for the children; children who wear disposable contact lenses have been given saline solution and contacts. Orthodontic appointments are being kept. Laundry is done daily. One reason for the initial chicken pox outbreak is that none of the children are vaccinated. Now, all non-FLDS members are screened to assure that they are up-to-date on their immunizations and not having any coughs, colds, or other symptoms. Hands are cleansed - coming and going - with hand sanitizers before contact with the children as well as the young children staying with their mothers.
As for the accent - I noticed the same and asked one mother - I suppose it is no different than me having a Texas accent.
Atari
The Flds ladies on the Eldorado tape are speaking in a manner that
mimics Warren's speech pattern.The Flds in Colorado City,have a distinct accent,peculiar to themselves and elderly people in rural Utah.The Flds in Canada have
more of a Canadian accent.
fttc -
That is so facinating about the FLDS women on TV. You're obviously a great source of information and education on these people and their lifestyles. I just wanted to say thanks for all your posts :)
Melody
Melody
Be careful. I say what I see and understand. My perception is unique to myself. Don't take my word for anything but rather see it as another peice of a very complex puzzle. If one really wants to truly understand these people and where they come from you can't take my word or any one individuals and see the whole picture. There are 500+ different people's stories involved in the Texas raid. There are over 10,000 different stories in the FLDS organization. Take mine for what it is worth. I think the 24/7media coverage of events tends to make us think these little windows we get into the lives of others gives us what we need to understand. Don't fall into that trap with my window or anyone else's.
fttc -
Another one well put. Absolutely. You just put into words one of my most strongly held beliefs. I guess what I meant in my previous comment was that your viewpoint is facinating and valued. I think one of the biggest problems in situations like these is people thinking they "know" anything.
Melody
So, at your request, here are a few of the invented rumours and phrases created by an overzealous media and an overabundance of opponents of the FLDS way of life.
How about the term "Bleeding the beast?" Totally contrived by others outside of the FLDS communities - the media was the first place where most even heard of the term. If anything the FLDS has always had as a tenet of their belief: Come out of the world and be not partakers of her sins.
"Lost Boys" OH brother, even most of the "lost boys" detest that description. The majority of these young men did not enjoy the restrictions put on such a conservative lifestyle and CHOSE to leave on their own or were enticed by others who had previously left. Everyone that choose to leave, left heartbroken family members. Get this: They were NOT forced out of the FLDS society because of competetion for females. What a bunch of crapola!
Blood Atonement: If you ever wanted to turn the public against a people, this is a real winner. This concept has absolutely no truth and it is not a practice nor policy in any FLDS works. The only blood atonement the the FLDS believe in is that Jesus died on the cross and atoned for the "sins of the world" by shedding HIS blood. So whatever "a certain somebody who is no longer affiliated with the FLDS," or others have said to the media about the FLDS believing this, is an outrageous damnable lie intended only on providing negative publicity to a people that want left alone.
Alpha Males: Yikes! A termed created by some feminazi hag that was probably not "getting enough."
Now, because I hate long entries, I will compose a few more at a later date and let this suffice for now. Feel free to add a few of your own though fellow posters.
Considering they had little to fight with, it was smart move for the mothers. You could se they lived sinple lives with no TV, baked bread and had a lovely place which looked like log homes. One mother showed the crayon work of her daughter and her foto book which was probably the only one left on the ranch- I understand they confiscated all fotos. I can only guess they did not take it because there was no picture of a man in it.
Anon 7:25 posted:
"Blood Atonement: .... This concept has absolutely no truth and it is not a practice nor policy in any FLDS written works."
Right: it is not (to my knowledge) incorporated in any FLDS works.
Wrong: There IS truth to it. It is referred to in LDS / FLDS history and was carried out in several known instances.
"So whatever "a certain somebody who is no longer affiliated with the FLDS," or others have said to the media about the FLDS believing this, is an outrageous damnable lie..."
Wrong!! Belief in blood atonement is no lie! My polygamous husband (inner circle) spoke of it numerous times in the many years I was with him, as did my father (even more inner circle) when I was young. It was nearly exercised against me when I fled with my children.
Whether it has actually been executed against anyone in the last 50 years, I don't know. But it is very definitely believed if not practiced.
Additionally, however, it should be noted that the "principle" of blood atonement as originally taught in Brigham Young's time, requires the receipient to agree to have his/her blood spilled (usually with a knife slitting the throat while in a kneeling position, so that the blood spills to the ground) believing it is the only way God will accept and forgive them for their grievous sin.
If you don't believe the FLDS teach blood atonement, you should be aware that Lyle Jeffs and Dowayne Barlow had the Aaronic Priesthood members hold their arms to the square and promise before Almighty God they would read and abide the teaching in the book "Purity in the New and Everlasting Covenant of Marriage". In this book are over 100 references to blood atonement if one commits adultery.
Feralfem: Feral: (wild, undomesticated, devoid of societal skills, incapable of normal social interactions, believed to have been raised by wild animals attributing to their irrational behavior patterns.) Fem: (terminology generally attributed to males lacking any form of masculinity, prefering a transgendered multisexual existence. Also frequently used to describe females ashamed of their lack of femininity.)
Whew! with a handle like that, no wonder you are so gullible to believe every wild tale thrown your way. Poor child. You need some serious deprogramming. Give Dr. Phil a call. He'd love to have you on his couch.
street git back on yer own thread!!!!!
Anon 12:16,
You said: "Don't forget that these people believe much of the same things as the LDS, would you call them a cult too?"
Well, there are people who would call the LDS a cult as well. Obviously they don't get as much hype about being labeled a cult because as of now they aren't breaking the law. I can understand how the LDS could be considered a cult. It has to do with a lot of the theological differences between Mormonism and historic Christianity. Visit this site for details:
http://www.godandscience.org/cults/mormdiff.html
The beginning reads:
"The LDS church does not like being referred to as a cult, but they are a cult because their teachings differ significantly from historic Christian theology. This page explains what specific LDS doctrines make the LDS church a cult. As you will see, these differences are not merely minor changes in theology, but major disagreements about the nature of God, Jesus Christ, and mankind."
-Amy
Anon 11:13
That was a typical post for a person that is unable/unwilling to discuss the issue. Defame the person using whatever silliness you can. Quite childlike indeed. At least Feral is willing to own his/her comments while you hide behind your anonymity. I think you are a coward.
I think anon 11:13 is onthestreet
think anon 11:13 is onthestreet
___________________________________
I think hes outta his mind!
Hey bozo! How do you perceive an anonymous blogger is hiding behind his "anonymous" name any more than all you yahoos that have invented you own handles? If you ain't hiding nothing, put your real God-given birth-certificated John Henry down on the blog or else clam up about who wants to be declared anonymous and who wants to claim they fell through the cracks. By the way who on earth is that foul mouthed Streetie? He doesn't need his own thread, he needs his own web page.
The thing that you all need to keep in mind about the truth and facts about the FLDS is that those who know don't say, and those who say don't know.
The public perception of the culture is the result of dissidents and liars who are each one in some way an example of their own duplicity. Like, Nobody can leave and I am "out" to prove it. Some more credible than others, some more actually abused than others, but they all will still create a distorted public view.
There is a lot of poetic justice; irony, in what has happened with this Operation Eldorado. As has been pointed out by others here. Many of the participants were involved in the internal raiding and creating this elite group.
But this does not justify Texas in doing this horrific overreach and trampling the civil liberties of an entire class, or "culture" again adding insult to their injury. The women and children are the victims again.
The authorities have the same problem here that they have always had. They need real valid complaints in order to prosecute the "crimes" and they have to persecute the innocent "victims" themselves in order to get them.
Something is damn wrong with your system if you have to torture the confession out of the "victim" so you can save them from themselves. Use injustice to create justice? or suppose that they can break the law in order to enforce it because the end justifies the means?
That is the travesty. Almost without exception, these poor "victims" will resent those the very worst who say, "Texas did the right thing". Cops following orders may be forgivable, but ignorant people with this kind of prejudice in inexcusable.
America has sold their soul this time.
If there is a just God, they will pay dearly for it, and I believe there is.
blogogre
Anon 10:39
As you have proved when I post you have some of my background to look at. The only reason you know this is because I have given myself an ID. It doesn't matter if you know my real name or not, you know the ideas that are behind my posts. I cannot post here without those familiar with the blog looking at who I am through the ideas I have posted. There is a huge difference between someone with an established name and someone posting as anonymous. Especially when they start tearing the character of others apart like calling them bozos etc. How do I know if I am talking to the same anonymous as the anonymous before you? I don't and you don't want me to know because then I can reason with you. You don't want to discuss or reason you just want to be able to throw in your comments and then retire to your corner and hide.
I sure wouldn't give any interviews either, given the ubiquitious and malicious lies told about them. People say they know this and that about the FLDS, but their "sources" are about as credible as the soap operas they watch all day long. I don't believe anything that lying gang of thugs - CPS - says. And anyone who believes the government really needs to get a brain transplant.
"Just following orders" don't cut it anymore. This is Genocide - "I was just doing my job" isn't a defence.
Don't take my word for it, check out the Articles of the Convention. Pure and simple. By the way, all you people who have swallowed the propoganda re: FLDS hook, line and sinker, you're also covered by the Convention.
See you at Nuremberg.
Of course their policies regarding the press have changed. Circumstances have changed. It isn't like,,,,,doctrinal change. It is wise adjustments regarding circumstances.
deborah
Pardon my ignorance, but could someone tell me what the articles of convention are?
Genocide Articles of Convention:
http://www.un.org/millennium/law/iv-1.htm
http://www.preventgenocide.org/law/convention
http://www.usip.org/library/topics/genocide.html
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