Monday, April 21, 2008
Will the DNA testing solve anything?
I have seen criminal cases in which DNA played a role in conviction and later it was proven that the person was innocent. In light of this, with so many of these children and parents closely related, will DNA establish the true parentage of the children? How accurate is our ability to trace DNA trails? Perhaps there is someone in the medical/biological field that could help out here.
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136 comments:
Thanks for starting this new thread fttc. I was wondering some of the same things.
When DNA is used to determine parentage it is 99.99%. Hard to argue with those numbers.
I think when you say 'cases in which DNA played a role in conviction', I believe it was hair, skin, semen, in other words a different type of DNA.
I do wonder how it works with so many so closely related in that they have inbred for several generations. I'd love to hear from a DNA 'expert', or even a doctor on this. I'm just wondering if they can even accurately type & match all the parents, and children.
Also, as I understand it some of the children, and young brides were sent to YFZ by their own parents who live other places. Unless those parents come forward to volunteer their DNA, the children will no doubt remain in state custody because it will show they belong to no one on the ranch.
What a MESS!
T
What difference does it make...The children only know they have loving mothers. I am not fdls, but I think that this situation is absurd, they did not take one or two out of a home, they took over 400 children away from thier families, for a non substantiated nor validated claim. It is the government playing the moral police. We as americans love to say how much freedom we have and allow others, but if it doesn't fit into our perception of "normal" it must be wrong. I would love to know why the ACLU hasn't even bothered to get involved. If it happened to them it can happen to anyone of us. My prayers go out to the Mothers, Fathers and children of Eldorado.
Sincerely,
Tammy Bowden
Tammy,
Be patient and watch this unfold. All the information we have on these cases is what we see on the news. Texas is being very tight-lipped about all of this. My guess is they have plenty of justification.
As far as the DNA goes, I heard on the news (haha) that once they've established who the parents are, they could go after not just the man who "married" these underaged gals, they might also go after her parents as accessories to statutory rape.
few things they might find out
how many are warren's
how many mothers and how few fathers
how many fathers...are somewhere else
might not be a pretty picture
keep sweet texas
stg
DNA testing is very expensive. Why are they testing kids whose results would be irrelevant to this case? This case is about sexual abuse of minors. The only DNA results that would be pertinent to this case would be the babies of the underaged girls. Who fathered these babies is the issue isn't it?
Are all of the parents of these children on the compound premises? Or have some of these children already been "kidnapped" from "undeserving" parents in other locales? Will DNA solve this mystery?
I'm confused too about how the child of one man will have many mothers caring for him/her, but then when the media speaks to an individual mother, that parent speaks only of her very own birth child. What constitutes a family unit to these people?
Will we be able to find out from the DNA testing who the fathers of the babies born to underage moms are? Will they be the same few men or will it be spread out over more men practicing sex with minors?
Emily in NC
I can't WAIT to find out the results of the DNA testing! Can't WAIT.
The UCLA doesn't condone child rape or conspiricy to have sex with minors.
As I understand it, not all the children (especially the teen girls) have parents on the ranch. I heard a report that some had been sent to YFZ by their own parents who live in other places. Unless those parents step up for DNA they may never be able to figure out who belongs where. It will be interesting to find out how many are Warren's children.
400 children is a lot!! My daughter's elementary school has 320 students ... this morning they were all on the playground at one time for a fire drill, I was shocked to think that you add another 75, and that's the crowd they're dealing with in Texas! It is a HUGE number of children!
Again dress it up for church call it religion..but its abuse. And unless you want to be driven to the end of the road and thrown out you follow. Have you done research about the lost boys...and or other women that have left this same sect? I don't understand how someone is getting hung up on "one girl" they are breaking the law regardless. I don't understand how one person can break the law over and over yet we throw someone that writes a $100.00 check in the system. These "men aka perverts" should be in the system. You can't be married to more than one person...and I think Texas should remove all the welfare they are getting as well.
Sgt~
few things they might find out
how many are warren's
how many mothers and how few fathers
how many fathers...are somewhere else
How is any of this relevant to the state's case which is the sexual abuse of minors?
400 children matched to 2 parents each is 1200 DNA tests. Hundreds of thousands of dollars for tests that the results will have no bearing on their case?
What I find the most concerning is that the state has not given these people any hope in the disposition of theur children and no contact. Experience indicates that backing a fringe religious group into a corner is a bad strategy. If they don't have any hope of a good outcome, we could have another "kool aid" situation. And then, hindsight won't help anyone.
Anyone who knows anything about FLDS under Warren understands that a confrontation and accountability was inevitable. Moving to Texas was stupid. I'm sure parents would have spoken up for their children and young ladies earlier were it not for the INCINERATOR. No freedom of speech there and no way out either.
These folks were blindly obedient to someone who abused them. His picture appears to be plastered all over their walls still. Amazing what power this man still has even though he's locked up.
"400 children matched to 2 parents each is 1200 DNA tests. Hundreds of thousands of dollars for tests that the results will have no bearing on their case?"
hundreds of thousands fo dollars that wouldn't need to be spent if not for the ridiculousness fo the situation, no birth certificates and children coached to lie to evil outsiders about their age and parentage at the risk of eternal damnation and further abuse...
And it will have bearing on the case, as to who has the rightful parental claim to a child.
Have any of you people defending the FLDS read anything written by Carolyn Jessop, Flora Jessop and info on the Lost boys? The ACLU (not UCLA..that is a University...wow!) should get invloved to defend teh children not the parents...but since when has the ACLU done anything right?
It is very interesting that so many people assume that they just took these kids all away with no evidence of abuse. Just because it has not been released does not mean they haven't found anything. They obviously had enough evidence to remove them or they wouldn't have. They knew what a huge media circus this would be, and I am sure that they are very careful about how they are doing things.
It is so sad to see the mothers on tv though. I don't feel bad for them that their children were taken away though, because they were taken away because they were not protecting them. What makes me sad is how uneducated they are. They can barely answer the questions. Their sentences barely make sense. It's so sad. They should be fighting for their kids to get an education!
anon 11:29,
I believe this is how child custody works on the outside.
The threat of them doing something crazy (ie kool aid) shouldn't keep justice from being served. If they're going to drink kool aid, then it really is better to have the kids somewhere else, don't you think?
BS -- The state has appointed free attorneys for the children and free attorneys for the parents. That's more than Warren did when he kicked out dozens of men and took their families away from them.
Waiting and Watching
I keep hearing from the same handful of women who have left the FLDS. Don't all of them have books out? I wonder how many books they've sold as a result of this. Are their appearances really about helping these people or about selling more books? They have a lot to gain by fanning the flames and sensationalizing this issue.
Where are all the "dozens" of men whose families were allegedly stolen from them by this sect? Have they filed for custody of their children? Have they filed kidnapping charges or done anything to legitimize their claims that their children were taken? Have they rushed to Texas to search for their children now that they are out of the control of the sect to try to establish paternity and get possession of them? Where ARE they?
I'd like to hear from somebody that doesn't stand to gain a bunch of $$$ from their story. I'd find them much more credible than Jessop and the other book peddlers.
anon 11:38
The case is about sex abuse of minors. Specifically the teenaged girls who are either pregnant or have babies. By all means test those babies!!!!
If the issue is establishing who has a rightful parental claim to a child then they only need to test one parent right? Why the need to establish who BOTH parents are when the child being tested is not one that was born to one of the underaged girls?
I would LOVE to be able to see these 2 dozen boys who are at Cal Farley's boys Ranch in Amarillo... they can play, watch sports, tv, play video games, ride bikes, 4 wheelers, ride horses... and most of all PLAY and make FRIENDS and get an EDUCATION. They will make friends and learn that this world is not such an evil scary place. I am sure they miss their families, but I am also sure that they are loving an opportunity to learn and to make friends and to PLAY without the threat of being kicked out for any tiny infraction. The girls as well will learn that they can do the same and won't have to give their bodies at 13 or 14 to some old man 4 times her age.
I can only imagine how their worlds are expanding.
I think once they get a glimpse of how life can be fun and the people are not evil and bad, they will never go back. They can learn what it is like to be cared for, not abused and used.
anon 12:16,
You won't hear from them because they're "repenting from afar", which doesn't involve calling authorities and standing up for yourself. If you do that you may have to "blood attone", which means you'll never see them again - not even in the afterlife.
Why is this so hard to understand? Mind control and brainwashing don't make you react to situations in a normal human way; they make you do what you're told and shut up.
Not all of them have books out. Get your facts straight. IMO Warren just thumbed his nose at the law for years...why did they move to Texas in the first place if not thumbing their nose at the law? Welfare fraud should been included. If people would get off their religious high horse and get down to the facts this isn't about religion. I would love to see any other US "parent" get away with having multiples and not paying for them. Oh right we have laws for that also. Why don't they have to abide by US laws? I am pretty sure their "God" doesn't believe in lying and cheating the system.
Wifey,
Please tell me about this "blood atone" and what it entails. What is your personal knowledge of this?
I am not FLDS. I consider myself a student of humanity and try to keep open minded about people (groups) who are different in order to learn as much as I can about them. Some of what I learn is awful but I still want to know the full picture.
Thank you.
"....I am pretty sure their "God" doesn't believe in lying and cheating the system." -- Anom
...yeah, he sure does
keep sweet texas
stg
Blood attonement is the literal shedding of blood to attone for sins committed.
Not sure if it means loss of life in all cases, but it definitely keeps people in line.
Does anybody know if people who are currently members of the FLDS communicate on or use the internet (blogs, forums, etc.)?
I'm just wondering if they ever have a desire to put out information about their lifestyle and religious to us "gentiles" in order to make it seem less scandalous, or if they just try to avoid all communication with outsiders.
Thanks,
Melody
Does anybody know if people who are currently members of the FLDS communicate on or use the internet (blogs, forums, etc.)?
I'm just wondering if they ever have a desire to put out information about their lifestyle and religious to us "gentiles" in order to make it seem less scandalous, or if they just try to avoid all communication with outsiders.
Thanks,
Melody
My comment is in response to any of the above who may think that the states actions are absurd. First off the PR actions being taken by the Eldorado Sect are just that. They hid behind the walls to avoid any laws that the government may inpose on them, but if they are so willing to take the money from the government then they need to follow state and federal laws. Second, it would just be bad judgment if the CPS did not remove all the children from the alledged situation. You can not just remove one child and leave the rest knowing they could possibly be in trouble. CPS would be just as guilty as the people that are letting it happen. No child deserves to be treated or raised in that manner. Lastly, I am appalled by the mothers that left their children. They cry to the media that they were taken away yet they declined the opportunity to stay with them. This action to return back to the compound endorses the idea that these children are not the number one priority. But more blutly put...it is just inexcusable. It makes me cringe to think that women not only would willingly leave their child but the possiblilities that a blind eye may have turned in other instances in the name of God/Prophet. It must be understood that I am not bashing the religion, I am bashing the hypocrisies of their religion. I am fairly certain that no God would approve of the raping of young children, the abandonment of young children or welfare fraud.
To the ignorant...I only hope that comments on this board help to educate you.
To the person out there responsible for the phone call to the hotline.....I am not sure if you will ever read this but kudos. Your "take charge" attitude may have saved many children from a life of cruelty. If you are truely the 16 year old girl, I am very proud that you knew the difference between right and wrong. I also hope that you are safe and now have a chance to explore all the opportunities that life has to offer.
P.S. Does anyone know how to avoid giving our hard earned money to these welfare scammers?
I'm LDS and I disagree with the behavior that is condoned by these people who claim to be followers of christ. Our rules in the chruch are as follows we follow the leaders and laws of the land. Which doesn't allow rape or incestual beliefs. I feel what the FBI is finally doing is great and they should get the other compounds broken down as well these childeren are being abused in many ways by there families. I feel sorry for those childeren. We as Latter day saints of of monogimous relationship with one person. As for the past I don't know but that not what is taught.I pray for the kids that the lord will help them get through this termoil.
Thanks,
mmy
A couple of comments - re: a couple posters have asserted that DNA tests are not relevant to proving sexual abuse of minors. How the heck else do you prove who gave birth as an underage girl without determining parentage of all the kids? C'mon - that's a no-brainer! Re: blood atonement - yes, it does involve death in all cases; adherents believe that with some sins, exaltation to the celestial kingdom is only possible with the voluntary shedding of their blood (in death).
Finally, a couple raised fair questions regarding the books written by a couple of the women that have escaped the FLDS. I recently finished "Escape" and wondered myself what Carolyn Jessop is doing with the proceeds. Then I came to the conclusion that if even half of her account is accurate, she deserves the recompense, and perhaps more importantly are the massive medical bills she has and continues to incur with her son, Harrison. Supporting herself with a fair profit from telling her story is way better than the government covering everything. My best wishes to Carolyn and her kids, and I sincerely hope that Betty can get her head on straight.
"Does anybody know if people who are currently members of the FLDS communicate on or use the internet (blogs, forums, etc.)? "
No, they have no TV, listen only to church recommended music and do not subscribe to the internet. Somewhat like the Amish. There may be a few exceptions for business purposes but I know of no one that might post to a blog that would be a current FLDS member. If anyone is saying that they are it's probably a past member or "dissident"
"Are all of the parents of these children on the compound premises? Or have some of these children already been "kidnapped" from "undeserving" parents in other locales? Will DNA solve this mystery?"
This is possible but generally children stay very close to Mother.
To any and all who have compassion for mothers, fathers and children, please view this website. http://captivefldschildren.org/
Try these shoes on yourselves. How would you feel?
"Have you done research about the lost boys...and or other women that have left this same sect?"
I personally know many of these "lost boys and girls" Their stories are tragic but sometimes they are fabricated. When the stories are true (and some are) it's really sad.
However, I have personal knowledge that some testimony before a Legislative committee was false. Take it all with a grain of salt folks. You have got to be smarter than to think that every story you hear on TV is true !
I had actually posted this on another thread, but it looks like it might be more appropriate here...
Just a thought--Won't DNA also give hope to those who were sent away [banished?] and had their families then reassigned to other men? To me, that's the same as kidnapping...but I won't go there at this point. DNA will not only tell who's related to who..but who SHOULD be with who. Maybe the families who left or were sent away can now get their children back..? I am sure this must be terribly scarey and confusing for the children,but DNA should solve a lot of unanswered questions.
--MC--
Looks like the world will finally learn the truth about the FLDS. They have a website at www.fldstruth.org. Oops, missing pictures? Yep, truth.
"400 children matched to 2 parents each is 1200 DNA tests. Hundreds of thousands of dollars for tests that the results will have no bearing on their case?"
Excellent question. Texans might just ask that very thing of your representatives. Someone is going to have to pay for this "Let's satisfy our curiousity" trip to the DNA store. It's gonna cost ya!
"It is so sad to see the mothers on tv though. I don't feel bad for them that their children were taken away though, because they were taken away because they were not protecting them. "
How do you dare assume that CFS is so all-knowing. Good people have the right to make the WRONG decision. In the meantime, you have hundreds of children without Mom and people like you shruggin your shoulders assuming the government must know best.
"All that is needed for evil to prevail is for good people to do nothing". What in the world gives you any confidence that CFS knows what they are doing when they have so obviously been as heavy-handed as they could possibly be?
Everyone seems terribly excited to find out the DNA test results. However, this is medical information, which is protected by law and must remain private. It cannot be made public, nor should it be made known to anyone but those directly involved in this case. Can you imagine someone walking into your home, taking away your kids and checking their DNA. There would be a lot of people running scared if that could be done to anyone anytime. I bet there are lots of people hiding the true parentage especially paternity of their kids
It is nobodies business but those involved.
DNA will help them sort out who each child belongs to. Mothers and children seemed unwilling or unable to provide this info.
They want to know How many children actually belong to the underage girls and who the statutory rapist is...so they can prosecute.
Also some of these children may not belong to the people they've been "assigned" to.
From what I've read if a parent -mom or dad- rocks the boat or displeases the men in this community who have set themselves above all the people (as if they were God or something)these Men can reassign children and mothers to another family!!!!
Maybe they'll be able to prosecute for child trafficking.
I think this practice of shuffling people about is why they removed the moms and children all at once...to prevent them from being "disappeared" to another compound.
One other point...sorry if this seems heartless...but why aren't these communities being prosecuted for FRAUD.
These people clearly have wealth, and the women live with men who profess to be the fathers of their children...yet they apply for public assistance.
This is a crime as these are clearly affluent communities (just look at all that land they purchased and their bank accounts).
At the very least these affluent communities should reimburse the state and federal monies they've illegally taken.
If we found a bunch of "single" welfare moms living on a fancy yacht with their children's fathers I think we'd all want our money back.
"Moving to Texas was stupid."
It absolutely was. If one wanted to go anywhere in the country and be sure they would execute a self-fulfilling prophecy of persecution one would obviously choose Texas. Ya'll fell right into it. I really thought you would have learned. Why in the world would you want to serve up big plate of significance to this fool just like he knew you would? You’re not learning.
I know this is off topic, but with all the stuff stirring up in Texas, we have been able to "find" our relatives by seeing them on TV. Others have come out of the woodwork by networking other ways. Will someone please post a thread for people searching? I am looking for Jonathan Bradshaw (later known by Jessop). Anyone with info, please reply.
Thanks!
"kool aid" situation
VERY unlikely. These are peaceful people. While this is new to you they've been here before. The state had their kids for 2!! years. There was never a shot fired and no one drank Kool Aid.
Search "1953 Raid Short Creek" if you want to learn. It cost every public official (in Arizona) at the time their re-election. The country was outraged and the state constituency was even madder about the bill.
"If we found a bunch of "single" welfare moms living on a fancy yacht with their children's fathers I think we'd all want our money back."
Apparently these people do not own the land or any of the buildings they're living in. Everything is owned by the church. If they leave they leave with nothing right? They don't own anything. The application for welfare would ask about assets ... they can truthfully say they don't have any. Nobody has shown any kind of proof that these people have lied on welfare applications about the presence of the childrens father in the home. The father being present doesn't necessarily disqualify a family for welfare either.
I find it kind of hard to believe due to their push for self-sufficiency that they're all on welfare. I lived in St. George, Utah for a year and saw polygamists in the stores regularly. I never saw any of them use food stamps or WIC vouchers.
From what I've seen on the news these people raise and produce a lot of their own food, make their own clothes, educate their own children, etc. If they were interested in milking the system why would they go to the effort of trying to be self-sufficient?
I haven't had time to read all the comments, and I finally decided to start reading a few today, and the comment about people not leaving because of the incinerator deserves some comment.
We have no proof of an incinerator being use for ill purposes. In fact, now that a document on cyanide poisoning has come to light, I am more inclined to think that the incinerator and cyanide document may have more to do with playing around with gold than anything else.
Robert Richter
The question above was asked about blood atonement, but at your request, here are a few of the other invented rumours and phrases created by an overzealous media and an overabundance of opponents of the FLDS way of life.
How about the term "Bleeding the beast?" Totally contrived by others outside of the FLDS communities - the media was the first place where most even heard of the term. If anything the FLDS has always had as a tenet of their belief: Come out of the world and be not partakers of her sins.
"Lost Boys" OH brother, even most of the "lost boys" detest that description. The majority of these young men did not enjoy the restrictions put on such a conservative lifestyle and CHOSE to leave on their own or were enticed by others who had previously left. Everyone that choose to leave, left heartbroken family members. Get this: They were NOT forced out of the FLDS society because of competetion for females. What a bunch of crapola!
Blood Atonement: If you ever wanted to turn the public against a people, this is a real winner. This concept has absolutely no truth and it is not a practice nor policy in any FLDS works. The only blood atonement the the FLDS believe in is that Jesus died on the cross and atoned for the "sins of the world" by shedding HIS blood. So whatever "a certain somebody who is no longer affiliated with the FLDS," or others have said to the media about the FLDS believing this, is an outrageous damnable lie intended only on providing negative publicity to a people that want left alone.
Alpha Males: Yikes! A termed created by some feminazi hag that was probably not "getting enough."
Now, because I hate long entries, I will compose a few more at a later date and let this suffice for now. Feel free to add a few of your own though fellow posters.
12:16 and wifey,
I'll take that a little further...
No, not all of us have written books, nor are all the rest "repenting from afar."
Some of us are busy structuring and living our new lives on the outside and doing everything it takes to be responsible adults for our children to emulate. The goal is to learn for ourselves and teach our children that every action has a consequence, that we are personally responsible for our own actions (no priesthood leader to blame) and that the consequences we want are positive ones.
Perhaps I will write a book one day. But it won't be filled with bitterness or an exposé of just the bad stuff. Lord knows I left behind a HUGE number of wonderful, beautiful people and experiences.
I'm more inclined to write about what it takes to survive and thrive on the outside and give heartfelt thanks to all the terrific people whose paths cross ours along the way and contributed to building us up as individuals with meaningful purpose.
It seems to me that a lot of life-changing decisions have been made based simply upon allegations of fact made by local law enforcement officers, who apparently acted upon the words of a false informer who called in from another state. Although the sensationalism of our times has fairly killed it, there is a presumption of innocence firmly embedded in our Constitution.
In the U.S., almost all states permit marriage of minors (some as young as 13) with parental consent, though most require approval of a juvenile court under the age of 16.
I personally do no agree with the practice of polygamy, however, the separation of 416 children from both of their parents, and interrogation by the State of Texas without parental involvement, is to me the largest and most heinous crime that we currently have PROOF of. The law is almost uniform in this country that to seize child from his or her parents, the State must come forth with PARTIUCULARIZED PROOF of IMMINENT harm to the child, not GENERAL allegations that have not been connected to the child, or pseudo-scientific "testimony" from so-called experts who have spent only a few hours with those upon whom they are offering opinions. The actions by the State of Texas are outrageous. They harken to the Dred Scott decision (that black people were slaves) that was used to oppress an honorable people for 150 years and the treatment of the Japanese in WWII.
Where are the lawyers? Why haven't Petitions for Writs of Habeas Corpus been filed in federal court? Interlocutory appeals in state court?
feralfem~
That's a book I would be interested in reading. :o)
The fathers and leaders of the Mormon church, Joseph Smith and Brigham Young made it clear that all Mormon men must practice polygamy. "Behold a New and an Everlasting Covenent". So the Mainstream LDS are in trouble acording to there foundations.
http://www.onelivingtruth.com/polygamy.html
YouTube "Truth-Is Mormonism Christianity? Part 1"
After seeing this video, No parent would want to see any more children under Texas foster care.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISFPJL66p4c
I think some are making too much of the kids calling everyone mommy.
My child had to spend a lot of time in daycare and a lot of the toddlers called the day care worker "mommy". I just don't think it's that significant when you consider that these kids are around several different care takers 24/7.
I think it might make sense and if the various members encourage the children addressing the sister wives as "mommy" as a form of endearment, then it really isn't that big of a deal.
I don't hear stories of FLDS escapees saying that they didn't know who their mother was.
Brenda
Robert, interesting theory. What about the saw? Why the secrecy around that?
Heard on O'Reilly that the ACLU is finally taking interest and moving to guard the civil rights of all the parties involved - children and adults. It's about time somebody paid attention to what's going on instead of grabbing their torches and pitchforks in a knee jerk response to assumption and extrapolation of grains of truth.
PROOF. Most children have a State issued Birth Certificate and required a Social Security number. These documents require a variety of personal information. These official documents can be used to prove parentage and if necessary DNA for additional proof. How do the FLDS parents prove parentage. If only one parent is available how is custodialship determined. Does the court require written designated custodialship from the absent parent.??
"The father being present doesn't necessarily disqualify a family for welfare either."
A good argument for the legalization of polygamy, and making those that practice it ineligible for certain state benefits.
How unfortunate also that TX does not have appropriate Home Schooling laws. These children were never guaranteed the right to an education that would aid them in a life outside their compound.
BTW - re. the number of DNA tests -- they only need one per person so much of the math done by some posters here is WAY off.
The head count has changed, and not by a small amount, after all this time ... very odd.
I'm wondering, also, if Warren's FLDS folks are aware of his video taped confessions that he is not a prophet. (They have been posted on youtube.)
Let's watch and wait, and those that pray please let us pray for wisdom for all involved.
Oona
I think the DNA is going to prove everything ... given that it would be able to tell just how closely related the people are.
"I find it kind of hard to believe due to their push for self-sufficiency that they're all on welfare. I lived in St. George, Utah for a year and saw polygamists in the stores regularly. I never saw any of them use food stamps or WIC vouchers."
I can't argue with what you've personally seen but if you google the issue you'll find there is a concept called "bleeding the beast" (that's you and me...where they feel it's almost "holy" to suck funding out of our immoral society"
And these communities are wealthy...even if they hide it in one big bank account...they should Not be on public assistance...that should be reserved for the poor...
The link is in response to the comment below. It seems it's true they don't like to be called lost boys but they certainly feel kicked out and abandoned...and those who vehemently feel that these people deserve their children despite what "outsiders" feel about their life style...why aren't you holding them accountable for the abandonment of children as young as 13 years old...that alone gets people a child endangerment charge
"Lost Boys" OH brother, even most of the "lost boys" detest that description. The majority of these young men did not enjoy the restrictions put on such a conservative lifestyle and CHOSE to leave on their own or were enticed by others who had previously left. Everyone that choose to leave, left heartbroken family members.
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/04/21/earlyshow/main4030628.shtml?source=RSSattr=U.S._4030628
The ACLU? Are you really proud of that? Seriously most of what the ACLU reminds me of ambulance chasers.
Has anyone else noticed in the recent television interviews with the mothers that many of them have that glazed over look and a reeeeeally slow blink? It looks to me like they're sedated or something. Am I imagining that?
Melody
Melody, exactly what do you expect out of some people (Mother's) that have had their children ripped away from them? You expect them to look all nice and calm, rosy cheeks, and sunny disposition? They appeared on those shows almost a week after the raid, most of them had been in Fort Concho with their kids and then told to go home, I'm sure they have been getting lots of sleep, and just going about daily life without any consternation. What the hell? They have had their children ripped away, how much sleep are you gonna get when or if they do that to you?
Guess what - few if any of the men showed up for DNA tests in Eldorado.. Couldn't blame them. ..kinda like a drunk driving to police station on his own for a breathe-alizer .. Damned if you do -- damned if ya don't
""....Lost Boys" OH brother, even most of the "lost boys" detest that description. The majority of these young men did not enjoy the restrictions ........enticed by others who had previously left. Everyone that choose to leave, left heartbroken family members." -- Amon 9:12
You're forgetting about all the "Lost Girls"
more of them than "Lost Boys"
but people don't like to call them "Lost Girls" either
they call them ....."Poofers"
keep sweet texas
stg
The mothers and children are all on federal health programs, WIC, foodstamps and any other program available. The mothers say they are single parents and don't have any money. I have seen this and actually worked with medical and federal programs where they bring their Medicaid cards and food stamps. If the fathers were made to support all of their wive, I know the numbers would drop considerably.
anonymous from Utah
Many are but not all. I have two sisters that I know are not on any welfare. To the rest of your point though both husbands have only one wife. I know if they had more they still would not be on welfare. It would be too embarassing for both of them to have that indication they were not able to support their families. There are other men with plural wives also not accepting any welfare. There really are some decent, hard-working, freedom loving, American citizens among them. We are seeing the worst of the bunch displayed in the media and the spotlight.
anon 10:16 -
Whoa there...I wasn't trying to offend anyone or slam those women for anything. Fact is if I were in their position I'd take anything I could get my hands on to help calm down. My question was more along the lines of, would they be "allowed" to take anything for anxiety etc. or if those were typical mannerisms or if I was just reading too much into it.
I know this is a sensitive issue and really moves people one way or another. It seems as this goes on people are getting more polarized and extreme in their views. Like there's no room for shades of grey in this. I don't think ALL black or ALL white is really a realistic way to look at something this complicated.
Melody
Melody,
You asked a question awhile back and got your head bitten off, so here's another perspective about the women looking sedated.
There used to be an excessive number of women in the twin cities area (formerly FLDS' most concentrated population in AZ and UT) on prescription Zoloft and Prozac. One view is that the numbers went way up when the men stopped touching the women.
Now many of them have moved to Eldorado and I don't know what the numbers look like anymore. Unless they have changed Warren's edicts, I doubt things have changed. They are still wearing the same dresses in the same colors he insisted they wear, so you do the math.
Anyway, when Warren became prophet he set up a handfull of new rules and some of them had to do with how often and when a man can have sex with his wife. Only when she was ovulating was sex between a man and his wife permissable. It was not okay to have sex with your wife when she was pregnant or if she wasn't ovulating (in other words, sex was for procreation only - not for solidifying the marriage bond and certainly not for pleasure). The women in this community don't use birth control (as you may have guessed), so they were pregnant quite a lot...so this led to much less intimacy and touching (which we all know a woman needs)between spouses.
Hence, the huge increase in anti-depressants, hence the "stoned" look you saw on tv.
Also, did you notice all the wencing and grimacing, as if to cry - but.....no tears.
I think it's very sad.
-a woman
None of these people have made any attempt to pass their "marriages" off as official marriages. Given this how are they guilty of bigamy? I don't think they are violating the bigamy statutes as they're written otherwise every man who has a mistress holed up in an apartment somewhere would be guilty of bigamy too. If they could propve bigamy states where they have been would have prosecuted them for it as it's so easy to prove due to them doing it openly. Instead states have had to go after them for child abuse, accessory to rape, etc.
I don't buy it that the state just turns a blind eye ... if they had something they could throw at Jeff's and the other leadership of this church they would have used it.
What I find ironic is the puritanical stand that society has taken about the polygamy aspect of this case. Homosexuality has been rammed down our throats for the last 20 years and we've been told it's nobody's business to say who can sleep with whom or what a family looks like. We've had that viewpoint drilled at our kids in public schools too. NOW suddenly it's everyone's business who these people sleep with and a family most definately can't look like THOSE PEOPLE!!!
People wanting to have their cake and eat it too. The whole world's gone crazy.
With all the issues of child retardation and other genetically recessive diseases that are passed from inbreeding, I think these kids would like to know who they came from so they can prepare for the health difficulties they may suffer throughout their lives and the lives of any children they may have. Look at the now none-polygamist Mormons from Utah and Idaho, they've still got some serious inbreeding recession going on with their kids. The sins of the fathers... Poor kids are poison from conception.
I would hope the government would get involved if child abuse was alleged no matter what the fmaily loooked like. The FLDS has to realize that it can't have ti both ways, if they live so incredibly secluded from society, then they will be treated as one household when it comes to child vulnerability and CPS investigations.
on another note:
The Lost boys: Gathered inside a gated compound, under the watchful eye of a security guard but beneath a beautiful mountain backdrop, a group of young men speak casually about their mothers' reassignment to new husbands, running construction crews as teenagers, and celebrating the 2000 New Year half believing the world was about to end.
Richard Gilbert, one of the oldest of the so-called Lost Boys of polygamy, pauses to examine clean glasses in the dishwasher, wondering if the white stuff is leftover milk or a calcium deposit. He apologizes for the messiness of the apartment he shares with several other young men on the property of their Sandy patron, businessman Dan Fischer.
At 19, Gilbert has assumed an older brother role among the group of exiles from the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS). It's nothing he hasn't done before.
What Gilbert calls "the flood" began in early 2003, a few months after the death of FLDS Prophet Rulon Jeffs and takeover of the church by one of his sons, Warren Jeffs. Gilbert already had been kicked out of the church and was living in a Hurricane duplex with three other young former FLDS members. There came a knock on the door, then another, and another.
In a period of two months, about 50 boys showed up. "A lot of times it was, 'Father told me to get out,'" Gilbert said. "In a lot of cases it was 'Warren wouldn't let me stay.'"
Read more here: http://www.rickross.com/reference/polygamy/polygamy250.html
a woman 1:29 -
Thanks that's really interesting. See It looked to me like maybe a prescription induced thing but then I wasn't sure if that sort of thing was even allowed. It sounds like Warren has initiated a lot of sad changes for those people. It's too bad.
Melody
As much as I am turned off with homosexuality it is a lifestyle. Many have the same reaction to polygamy. In both lifestyles it is illegal for adults to have sex with children. Both classes will get prosecuted if caught. This is about underage marriage. It is not about bigamy/polygamy.
-a woman
"You asked a question awhile back and got your head bitten off, so here's another perspective about the women looking sedated."
Your perspective on prescription drug use is based on what? These women are on whole food diets, eat meat very sparingly and subscribe to holistic medicine (herbs and essential oils). I know of no prescription use as you are describing here, they avoid it. And what "numbers"? Are you a health care worker? Seriously, I'm very curious as to how you have this information.
You are correct there was a post-Warren crack down on sexual activity. He clearly taught that sex was for pro-creation and also that it was with the woman's permission only. There are some Non-FLDS within the community who think that "Warren really cleaned up the place" - referring to past abuse toward women sexually. It's just a different perspective, I'm offering an opinion one way or another. I agree that the Victorian culture of the FLDS does not understand what the rest of the world has learned about the physiological benefits of sexual activity. THAT is sad.
Drugged? I doubt it. They just have a very soft spoken, quiet way. There is a different accent, tone and volume you must use on the phone, for example, if you don't want the conversation to be short. They are so easily spooked. I imagine this habit and manner is so they can keep some order in a house very full of small children. If mom yells everyone yells, you know? I'm just guessing about why but the softspoken way is a fact.
"People wanting to have their cake and eat it too. The whole world's gone crazy."
Amen
"Look at the now none-polygamist Mormons from Utah and Idaho, they've still got some serious inbreeding recession going on with their kids. The sins of the fathers... Poor kids are poison from conception."
Oh my goodness ! What an awful thing to say. What do you know about Utah and Idaho? Plus, you forgot Arizona and Western Nevada you dimwit! There is no inbreeding in Mormonism. In fact I don't know of any back to the inception of the church, there was too much immigration.
You're right that there are close family marriages in FLDS (1st cousins – gross but true) but to tie that into all "Mormons"? Give me a break.
In the community they are called "keep sweet pills". Not everyone is on them - it's a dirty little secret. I understand they are very holistic in their approach, but this is one exception.
Trust me, I know.
4/21/2008 9:42 PM
Anonymous said...
PROOF. Most children have a State issued Birth Certificate and required a Social Security number.
----
I was curious...doesn't the IRS require a SSN for ANY child to be claimed as a dependant on taxes?? I know someone will correct me if I am wrong. And since it's sorta come out on the news,and in interviews with those who have inside knowledge, that birth and death certificates do not exsist for many in the sect... are the husbands NOT filing taxes or are they just making up SSN's? OR something in between??
--MC--
"...sex was for pro-creation and also that it was with the woman's permission only.... -- Anom 3:34
like asking a duck to quack
they gotta have babies
they have nothing else at that ranch to do
gotta be bored to tears
maybe why they ain't got none left
keep sweet texas
stg
I found this blog today while researching a medical condition common to the FLDS sect. I wanted to leave a comment and to ask a question.
First, I have been in a monogamous marriage for almost 32 years and while I think of many times that sister wives would have been a comfort and a tremendous help in dealing with the everyday difficulties of life, I would not be able to share my husband.... even to have the added benefit of other women in my life. Perhaps I would feel differently had I been raised with the concept, but I was not... That being said, I have no problem with women who would choose to live in a plural marriage. I can see that there would be benefits.
I think that most people in this country feel that way in their heart of hearts and perhaps that is why the enforcement of the laws concerning polygamy has been so lukewarm and unenthusiastic.
I think the uproar comes from the circumstances that surround polygamy in the situation of the FLDS communities. The lack of apparent choice and the extreme power over their personal lives that has been given to Warren Jeffs, or to whomever the ruling Prophet is at the time. The social isolation of the communities fails to prepare the children who do not remain in the community, for whatever reason, for life in the outside world... and that, is a form of neglect. As a parent, I felt that it was my responsibility to prepare my children to be happy, productive, law abiding, thinking adults. It seems the the FLDS sect fails to prepare their children for life outside their community.
So much for my comment. Now for my question.
The medical condition I am researching is a genetic defect possessed by one of the founders of FLDS and one of his wives. This defect results in the failure of the body to produce a necessary enzyme and the lack of this enzyme results in various birth defects such as mental retardation, epilepsy, and a high infant mortality rate. It is estimated that 70%-80% of the members of FLDS carry this defective gene which is expressed as the defect if they breed together. It is an extremely rare defect, there being only 13 documented cases in the world.... except for the 20 plus cases documented in the Utah/Arizona FLDS community. There is no treatment or cure. It can only be prevented by refraining from having children if both parents carry the gene. How can this sect continue if the members can not reproduce with each other... or will they choose to continue to have children who will be afflicted with this defect or to die in infancy?
It seems that this is indeed a tragedy, perhaps worse than the current legal battle in Texas..
My heart goes out to the members of FLDS, who I am sure are good people, good hearted people, who are trying to live good, God guided lives, but who perhaps have been mislead. They are all products of the culture in which they have been raised and nurtured. How frightening this all must be for them.
I hope that we as a society can find a way to help all of them to find their way.
Angel
I work in mental health and so I have a lot of familiarity with psychotropic medications and their effects. Zoloft or paxil would not make a person look zoned out. It's not that kind of drugging. If anything they often tend to make people feel a little more wired.
Valium (known as "mother's little helper" in the fifties and sixties), Klonapin, Ativan, and Xanax would make someone look zoned out. So if there are pills to blame it would be one of those.
However, it is also possible that the act of having one's kids taken and being shipped to a different location is enough to create a state of shock or trauma which would make a person look and feel very zoned out for a period of time.
The clinical terms for this type of zoning are depersonalization, derealization, and dissociation.
Katie
Re:After seeing this video, No parent would want to see any more children under Texas foster care.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISFPJL66p4c
Oh No! That is horrifying! I had no idea.
I pray the state of Texas uses wisdom and compassion while caring for the children of the ranch.
I pray for the childrens well being, and I ask the Lord to guard all foster children in all states from behavioral medication.
I ask that the Lord will grant extra wisdom, patience, and compassion to care givers when/if issues arise.
I ask the Lord to block the use of medication to treat behavioral issues in all but the most necessary situations as determined by God the Father Himself.
I ask that you who are reading this agree with me in prayer, and make your request known to the Lord.
In the name of Jesus I pray amen.
This whole thing is just sick, this whole sect is based around the exploitation of young girls. They should shut down the ranch near eldorado, and just burn it to the ground. The sect doesn't follow any laws, yet takes money from the government.
I can't wait to hear what comes of all the DNA tests. All of those sick and perverted men, who raped young teenage girls, are going to be spending the rest of their lives in jail. HAHA, i guess Jeffs thought this was the way to become closer to heaven.
for all of you that are still praying for the return of the kids.. NEWS FLASH- GOD'S DEAD AND WE'RE ALONE.
this sect is just so disturbing, they think they can change the views of the public to put pressure on texas, but they can't the entire country is feels this sect is the root of many rapes and other injustices.
we should all begin to say good-bye to the sect, they stand no chance, thankfully the gov't is doing something right in trying to shut it down.
Perhaps someone already addressed Tammy above.
Tammy, were you aware that when a woman is reassigned because the father has fallen out of grace with 'the leader', that his children and wife are taken away and given to another man - and he has no rights to see them.
Whether the parents who are caring for them, are their biological parents is in question, not to mention - they want to know if the 7 year old child - is the chid of the 19 year old, and the now 50 year old man.
And, if the rationale for it being ok for them to be with anyone as long as they love them leaves foster care a very viable option - as long as the family is loving - following that logic.
Children belong with their parents - birth parents (even if they are not in the prophets good graces)unless it is shown that the parents are not caring for that child appropriately.
The FLDS will have to come to terms with the repercussions of floating women between men, and for marrying children to men. I think we will be suprised at the data revealed.
I too am curious how the close familial relationships will affect the DNA results.
Remember Social Services doesn't prescribe drugs - Doctors do.
But I agree - those meds are way overused - and unconcenable at that age.
I don't think any doctor is going to begin giving this type of drug to this group of children.
I'm not certain why its being brought up.
For the last century polygamous Mormons have kept to themselves and tried to keep out of the spotlight for obvious reasons. It is a bit ironic that the FLDS adopted a stance of secrecy that far exceeds anything in previous polygamist' history and now they are seeking more publicity than any polygamist group has. If the DNA data is made public even in only a statistical manner which I expect would be the case it will only add to the publicity. But more likely in a negative way for them as much of the publicity has. It seems nearly everything these people do backfires on them.
Atar
In the video on YouTube it stated that there were Social Services workers that were not doctors giving out the meds for the kids. It looked suspicious to me but that is what was uncovered in the documentary. I too do not believe the FLDS children will be put on drugs but it does make for good point if you are trying to get sympathy for the FLDS predicament.
If your a "normal" us family that is being accused by the state of having a Pedophile in the home the mother is given a choice to either get rid of the man or have her children taken away.
Why werent these women given this choice? This way the children are kept with their mothers, there not in foster care and the adult men are not around to influence either one of them.
For a previous post i dont think that the govt is going after them for being differant, but because they are having 50 yr old men marrying children at and under 16 yrs old which is wrong any way you look at it.
fttc,
I'm not sure if we watched the same documentary, but I never heard it asserted (in the one I watched) that social service workers were giving out the meds.
What's the link?
thanks
It has nothing to do with "who is sleeping in who's bed". It has to do with if its legal and if we are funding it by giving them aid. I am fine with them having more than one wife...AT AGE 18***consentual....and also providing babies with legal documents so if they do want to leave they have the proper documents to do so!
something is wrong with these FLDS? its about time our government stepped in and took custody of these children. about 100% of them are brain-washed and aren't functional at all in real life. God bless America and please help these people out, they don't know how to act? what a shame!
Native
You were right. I was wrong. Thanks for the check. The link I watched was an NBC documentary. The link is http://youtube.com/watch?v=ISFPJL66p4c
It was a Radiologist prescribing phsychotropic drugs for kids. Although I was wrong about it not being a doctor it still seems inappropriate.
fttc,
Right you are and what a shame! If there needs to be a crackdown it should be on some of these counselors and medical providers...YIKES!
Me thinks that The Lord God of He aven is getting ready to get some DNA for Himself. Would if when they get their DNA Samples and they don't match with the parents. What are they going to do. The Parents and the children know who they belong to. Please give me a break!!!!If one is off the rest are. They opened up a can of worms. Every thought we think is recorded and someday we are going to be where these people are. All you Chritians better be ready to have answers for all your Secret Acts and Thoughts. The Day of Judgement is getting ready to shout them from the House tops. Nothing will be hidden in the day of Judgement. Leave JUDGEMENT TO ME FOR I WILL REPAY. THE PIT THEY DIG FOR OTHERS WILL BE THEIR OWN PIT.
this is cool
I was just thinking....
It seems Jeffs has prophesied "the end of the world" on several occasions... maybe it was not the end of Our world (the physical world) but truly the end of His world...of power and corruption...
I know FLDS people are probably posting here...think...could this actually be the cleansing people in your sect have been praying for...and God is answering your ardent and I believe genuine prayers...It's just not in the way you expected...but is it ever...
Corruption in all religious groups seems to be being uncovered....isn't this a good thing...so the people striving for Holiness in these groups are freed of these corruptions (that they may be totally unaware of - look at the Catholic Church)
Not all Catholic priest are pedophiles but those that are Must be brought to justice...FLDS is not any different then any other religious group...they are Not above the law...
but I believe good people...particularly people who are so sheltered can be easily mislead...it happens all the time
Anon 11:07,
Do you even know what DNA is?
Methinks not.
I agree - nothing will be hidden on the day of judgement, so some of you should be shaking in your temple garments.
I just watched an interview with the Mayor of Eldorado on the Dr. Phil Show. According to the Mayor when people found out it was the FLDS that were developing this property their concerns had nothing to do with the religious practices of the sect. He stated openly that people came to him very concerned that there would be so many members of that church living out there that they could take control of political offices in area. The mayor went on to say that he'd assured them they (the government leaders) would keep an eye on the people and get in there at the first opportunity. In another interview I saw the Sheriff said when the group first arrived people were coming to him concerned about the group using up all the water in the area and wanting him to do something about them being there. He also mentioned there was concern that they would gain enough numbers to run for public offices and win.
No mention of concerns expressed over Warren Jeffs, the scandal in the news about underaged brides, etc. Political power and natural resources. Hmmm.
Both these elected officials openly admit that the people down there were worried about the group gaining political power and using natural resources and both of them admit to promising the locals they would "keep an eye on" this group.
This group had a target on their temple from day one and it had nothing to do with anybody caring what they were doing with their kids.
With the powers that be admittedly waiting for an opportunity to get inside that compound under pressure from a constituency nervous about the groups potential for political power and use of natural resources I think it's completely feasable they went overboard in their response to the call. After all, this was their golden moment after four years of political pressure and who knows how long before they'd have another opportunity.
Even now it seems there was exaggeration about what was found during the raid. The first few days they reported they took over 20 young girls who were either pregnant or had babies into protective custody. The last report I saw that number was down to 4 girls who *MAY* be under eighteen. It looks like the women who everyone was so sure were lying about the ages, etc. were telling the truth!
The sad thing is that if CFS finds they were mistaken there is no big news splash to re-educate the public about what the reality of the situation is. I for one am not going to believe any of the allegations brought by the state until I see some evidence. The pregnant girls seemed like pretty convincing evidence until the number the state was claiming dwindled down to one-fifth of what the original claim was.
I keep seeing an article about an ex-FLDS man who drove from Nevada to provide DNA so that he can free his 3 boys from being held hostage by the state. If he is an ex member I would think he would be happy that the state stepped in and now maybe he can have his boys back. Any thoughts?
Anon 11:48
Your theory sounds good on the surface. I remember however the sheriff making the statement to members of the community that he did not have any evidence of wrongdoing. He told them that this is America and if no laws were broken the FLDS would be left alone. He contacted the leaders of the FLDS in YfZ and they were very congenial. When reports of abuse were given he investigated and found nothing wrong. Two people died and are buried at YFZ. Both times anti-FLDS made accusations that foul play was involved. The sheriff's investigation put those accusations to rest. It is not like the sheriff has not been inside the YFZ before the time of this raid. He thought he was on very good terms with Merrill Jessop.
On the other hand the small community of Eldorado which is reportedly a community in which all the neighbors know each other had a community rise up next to them which they knew nothing about. Nothing is as fearful to the human mind as the unknown. The purchaser of the YFZ reportedly told the locals that he was buildiing a hunting preserve. Whether his intentions changed later or he was being deceitful is a question unanswered to me. But to my rational thinking it makes little difference. Who wouldn't be concerned at the prospects of the life you have known changing. It was very poor PR at the least for YFZ to know of the concerns held by the locals and not done something to allay the apprehension. Why the secrecy? It was not necessary to disclose all the inner workings of their religion to be honest and open with the native locals. What effort was made to accomplish this? The sheriff also said when the did raid the YFZ he found there were many things told him by Merrill that were not true. What is he supposed to do? Start to beleive them now? The uncooperative stance that the members took with law enforcement really helped them out didn't it? Even the media blitz that the FLDS created did not assert that there was no wrongdoing. They just held up the children as a shield. When asked questions about the underage marriage the answer was either a 'no comment' or change of subject. If it is true as you infer that there was no wrongdoing and these people are innocent they are doing their darndest to not look the part.
FTTC
Have you ever heard, "You have the right to remain silent"? There's a reason this is stated to every individual taken into custody. It's because people have the RIGHT to remain silent in this country. The language used is not accidental or coincidental. It is a protected right of every American. These people saying no comment or not answering questions is one of their rights. Unfortunately it is yet another right that the rest of society doesn't seem to feel these particular people are entitled to and use their exercise of this RIGHT against them.
I happen to be married to a police officer. He has told me and all of our children that if we ever find ourselves faced with a situation where we are in the custody of *any* government agency we are to exercise this right regardless of whether we are innocent or not. If people don't protect and exercise their rights they soon won't have any at all.
Anon 11:48
"...a constituency nervous about the groups potential for political power and use of natural resources I think it's completely feasable they went overboard in their response to the call."
I think the "overboard" response had much more to do with the lessons authorities learned from the Waco debacle, and perhaps especially based on all the talk (from "inside sources," on forums and in the media) about fear of violence - such things as weapons being bought and stored, that if Warren were to say the word they would kill for him, the "God Squad," killing babies and burying them in unmarked graves, the gossip about a crematorium being built, etc.
Lord knows everything became so extreme and unpredictable once Warren took over - so unlike his more peaceful predecessors - that it was hard for anyone on the outside - gentile, apostate, whatever - to anticipate the outcome. Neither did they have any idea there were so many women and children inside.
Not really knowing just what they would encounter once receiving a directive to go into the ranch, the authorities went in with the idea of avoiding "another Waco" and being prepared for the worst... great resistance and even violence.
That said, once they got inside, we're now witnessing a whole new level of domestic violence - the use of tactics one might expect to see or hear about in a terrorist war zone far away from American shores - against our own citizens.
Nevertheless, as fttc has stated, the new residents in Schleicher County could have done a MUCH better job at the outset to address the concerns of their neighbors and county authorities by being more open and stating their case rather than take a chance that their cookie won't crumble under the weight of public suspicion. It was an unnecessary gamble.
This debacle did not need to happen and FLDS will have to face up to it now.
This link is in response to the below comment. I've read the number of underaged is climbing not falling...why would the girls have said they were younger...they don't follow the law but you bet they know what it is...(where's your info from)
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/5728316.html
"Took over 20 young girls who were either pregnant or had babies into protective custody. The last report I saw that number was down to 4 girls who *MAY* be under eighteen."
Smoking Gun has posted the affidavitts that were filed:
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/years/2008/0410081polygamy1.html
Anon 2:45
Yes, I have heard of not incriminating yourself. But the problem here is that they not only didn't remain silent they also seem to have given false information. At least the officers and CPS workers felt that way. I don't have a problem with the right to remain silent. I have a problem with the hypocrisy.
"At least the officers and CPS workers felt that way."
That is the key right there. CPS workers are at best human and subject to making mistakes. At worst they have a bias towards substantiating the state's case and would interpret any confusion between people having the same name or mistakes in their documentation as the FLDS women lying about their names.
Remember they were dealing with roughly 500 people in a very hectic & disorganized situation. To me it's just as plausible mistakes or assumptions were made by the CPS workers as it is that the people were lying about their names. Many have the same last names and it's likely more than a few have the same first and last names.
I just don't think people should rush to judgement based on the reports from CPS or law enforcement. They are trying to build a case against these people so where there is room to interpret things one way or the other they're going to lean towards what supports their case.
Thanks for the link. I was feeling like the Lone Ranger on this Blog. It's nice to know there are some other people out there who think CPS = NAZIs.
This group has been at this so long (Blogging here since 2004?) that they are just laughing at all this and it's so destructive. One person's tragedy (Flora, Penny and Carolyn I'm talking to you) doesn't give you a right to support the destruction of all our freedoms. I'm sorry for your loss but please be reasonable adults, be logical and educate yourselves about the unintended consequences you are supporting. Please.
Anon-"This link is in response to the below comment. I've read the number of underaged is climbing not falling...why would the girls have said they were younger...they don't follow the law but you bet they know what it is...(where's your info from)"
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/5728316.html
Freedommama,
Your information is either outdated or incorrect. Check your link.
In an earlier post I asked why the fathers who had been pushed out or had their families taken from them weren't rushing to Texas to claim their chilren, etc. The answer seemed to be, in part, that they were afraid of "blood atonement" (being murdered) by the FLDS.
There seem to be several ex FLDS that very publicly go against the sect and cause them problems on a regular basis. If blood atonement is a real thing why are these people still around? Can anybody provide any evidence to substantiate that this is anything more than a bogey-man story?
People keep mentioning the right to remain silent.
If someone asked you who your parents were would you feel a need to hide that information???
If a police officer needed to know who the parents were of a child who was in your home Would you feel the need to lie???
If you were hiding something...yes
If you can't or wont answer basic questions are Police just supposed to assume everything is hunky dory???
Come on people...this is obstruction of justice and contempt of court...they're clearly hiding Basic info because they are afraid it is incriminating...as in law breaking...
1:34
"Come on people...this is obstruction of justice and contempt of court...they're clearly hiding Basic info because they are afraid it is incriminating...as in law breaking..."
Educate yourself regarding the legal system and basic rights given to citizens in this country. Exercising your right to remain silent is NOT incriminating in any way. It's smart. Law enforcement is not there to help these people ... they are there to try to build a case against them. That is their job! My husband is the chief of police and I am a paralegal with a lot of experience in court. I'm as mainstream American as you can get and I wouldn't give any information period. Too many people sit in court rooms because they were innocent and figured spilling their guts to the police would work to their advantage. Then they find themselves in a court room with anything they said twisted to work against them where it's even marginally possible.
Obstruction of justice is completely different. Say if they were caught burning all the birth records and photos in their incinerators or something. Contempt of court doesn't apply here either.
I do understand the frustration people feel over the accusations and media reports coming out of this. I'm witholding judgement until the evidence has been given the weight of scrutiny in a court room in front of a jury.
Friendly advice from someone who works in the "system". If you're ever told you have the right to remain silent for God's sake take the advice!!!!
Annon – I am very well educated but I thank you for your concern about my intellectual development. I'm no expert on German history but of course I am aware of the Natzi objectives. Every well-educated person in the world is.
Your serious error in logic is that you are comparing a non-governmental organization (the FLDS) to an organization with real authority (the SS). The FLDS cannot behave like the SS because they have no authority to reach into your life and enforce their objectives; not without violence for which they have NO history.
I am correct in comparing CPS to the Natzis/SS because the Natzis actually had completely unchecked authority to steal children and so do the employees of CPS. Of course CPS would argue that there was due process but then so did the Natzis argue that their actions were just and justified didn't they? And, of course, history shows us that when they are exposed as having made decisions that were inhumane and not based on fact they will say “but, I was just following orders”.
Whether a small group subscribes to Jeff’s teachings is a question of religion, freedom to assemble, freedom of speech and I’m probably forgetting some others. He is entitled by the Constitution to teach whatever he wants, crazy as it is. I’ve said it before, if there are dead people at YFZ, as victims of “blood atonement”, or little girls being sexually abused then charge the crime and prosecute it to the fullest extent of the law. Anything less is judicial incompetence. Tragically, what has happened here looks nothing like justice and looks entirely like the SS to me. It scares me and it should scare every freedom-loving person in the world.
Arguing that it is a good idea to allow the government to raid an entire group based on the "prophesies" of one actually shows your ignorance to the laws of our land and the dangers of allowing slow erosion of the freedoms we all must protect. You argue that erosion is to be allowed simply because we are not aligned with the group under attack at the time? I've already established that I'm not relying on CNN to be "educated" about Jeffs and the FLDS. I’m well aware/educated that there are serious concerns and I lose sleep over those concerns more than you’ll likely ever know.
So, I invite YOU to educate yourself. In an effort to get you started I offer you these sobering thoughts from a Nazi captor:
**
“First They Came for the Jews”
First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.
Pastor Martin Niemöller
**
For more information on this amazing person: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Niem%C3%B6ller
I know this all seems light years away for us but a history lesson will also show you that the Nazi rise to power was VERY short won. We must be sure that our individual and collective answer to oppression in any form is “NEVER AGAIN”.
I pray for your education in truth. The fact that you care enough to post shows me that you are one to stand up for freedom and I congratulate you. You just need to be sure you are actually standing for freedom and not rumor of “they must have deserved it”. None of us can afford that mistake.
"I do understand the frustration people feel over the accusations and media reports coming out of this. I'm witholding judgement until the evidence has been given the weight of scrutiny in a court room in front of a jury."
Halleluiah !! That's all I'm asking ya'll to do! That is, everyone assume that these people are innocent until proven guilty. And , that the kids who are not in harm’s way go home. Immediately.
Did anybody see Dateline last night? They had a video taken by a FLDS member of their house being searched. They asked the officer if he had a warrant and he snapped something about the lawyer having one. Then they asked if they were going to be allowed to see the warrant and the officer told them no.
I doesn't SCARE me in the least. I am not afraid of my "freedom" to be taken away... come on!
I am not afraid of my children being taken away.
I am not doing anything illegal. I have not been accused of raping little girls, or conspiricy to have sex with a minor.
btw... There is a very prominent and very good attorney here in my city who is representing some Jessop person.. of course threre are probably DOZENS of Jessops at the ranch.
I think it is just so creepy to have dozens of underage girls pregnant or already mothers. Just shameful.
I also think it is REALLY creepy that they are not allowed to have sex unless they are ovulating. That gave me nightmares when I read that on this blog. Literally. SO SO sad. So messed up, it beggars discription.
"Obstruction of justice is completely different. Say if they were caught burning all the birth records and photos in their incinerators or something. Contempt of court doesn't apply here either."
Law enforcement were told that a child was being forcibly raped and battered. They have a high index of suspicion because the Leader of this organization has been imprisoned on assisting in a rape of a child, they have testimony from people who were within this compound that such abuses occur. They went to that compound and saw pregnant children. How could they not investigate.
We have seen too many dead children in this country and survivors of incest in this country to not investigate.
I agree that the system is not perfect. I concede that Innocent people are probably at greater risk than criminals who know the system.
But these people were only asked who were the parents of the children. That should not be a dangerous question to answer...unless real laws (I don't don't mean polygamy, that's almost ubiquitous in America, lots of men have lots of children with different women...and they are not bigamists because they are not legally married) I mean statutory rape...
So yes that makes me think they have something to hide combined with all of the above info.
why should they be exempt from investigation? I've seen flimsier cases result in the removal of children until such an investigation is completed.They are entitled to and are receiving due process and if anything the whole religious slant makes people even more nervous to prosecute because we are a very religion oriented society...I think...and I could be wrong...that law enforcement was very sure of their facts before they made a move.
This at least went through a Judge (as it should)... we've had much greater breaches of civil liberties from the federal government...unauthorized wire taps etc...that I am against
Is this really sad..of course...I'm sure people are pretty traumatized and that is horrid...but we do have laws...and I believe people are genuinely trying to protect children here.
I just think law enforcement should be given the same consideration as these families...innocent until
proven guilty...
"Natzis actually had completely unchecked authority to steal children and so do the employees of CPS"
This is just not true of CPS. (The Nazis of course perpetrated many crimes) Unless you are from a very unusual State (which I guess is possible)or Country. I worked in mental health and with child services...you have to show cause...many children end up dead (nixmary brown is one recent example) because information was not acted upon.
"Of course CPS would argue that there was due process but then so did the Natzis argue that their actions were just and justified didn't they?"
You are willing to exonerate FLDS without any clear info that they are innocent (and many of their own former members have come forward to say they were sexually molested as children and are afraid for siblings & children left behind) Yet you are happy to find Law Enforcement Guilty of malfeasance without any evidence that they are
"if there are dead people at YFZ, as victims of “blood atonement”, or little girls being sexually abused then charge the crime and prosecute it to the fullest extent of the law. Anything less is judicial incompetence"
I agree with you...and that is why they are being investigated. They are receiving due process...like any other accused child molester...they have lawyers.
My disagreement is your automatic assumptions that law enforcement is "guilty" without knowing exactly what they acted on.
The little we do know sounds like cause to me:
-A girl reporting rape and physical abuse
-Finding pregnant underage
girls in the community and no one offering clear information as to their names or relationships (if these are just a bunch of promiscuous teens that info would have changed everything introduce the teen dads, yes embarrassing, but not a crime)
-a community known to force "marriages" of teenagers as evidenced by their leader being imprisoned for assisting in the rape of a 15 yo girl and former members coming forward and reporting this is commonly practiced
"Arguing that it is a good idea to allow the government to raid an entire group based on the "prophesies" of one actually shows your ignorance to the laws of our land and the dangers of allowing slow erosion of the freedoms we all must protect."
I haven't personally seen anyone arguing this.
The confusion here is that a community which "just happens" to be radically religious is Also being accused of crimes against children.
I might not agree with their thinking but I do agree that the law should protect them from religious Persecution.
And I don't think most people nowadays care what consenting adults do or what they believe. They are entitled to be bigots. Who cares. The world is full of bigots.
They are being investigated for "child rape" based upon a court order. Which is based upon at least the little we know, and their could be much more. Their "religion" should not protect them from prosecution.
Just as Catholic priest who are pedophiles should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
"Your serious error in logic is that you are comparing a non-governmental organization (the FLDS) to an organization with real authority (the SS). The FLDS cannot behave like the SS because they have no authority to reach into your life and enforce their objectives; not without violence for which they have NO history."
I only addressed this issue because I believe CPS=Nazi (as was posted)is unfounded,and upon reflection could find much in the FLDS Leadership's "Philosophy" (maybe not all FLDS believe so) that actually has many parallels to Nazism.
FLDS leadership cannot reach into my life but based on reports from their own former members they do exactly that to the people in their compounds.
The Leaders can reassign wives to other men, reassign children to other parents, eject children (boys as young as 13 yo have been abandoned on dirt roads and as men have successfully sewed FLDS Leaders) seize property and businesses of members (there have been law suits)...and former members do report domestic violence against women and children as well as child rape...boys and girls (their leader is in prison for assisting in the rape of a 15 yo parishioner).
Well..you may say...this is America they can just leave.
But
These are very religious people and they fear excommunication and eternal damnation...and that's what that are taught leaving will cost them - Their immortal souls.
They are taught that their Leaders are prophets and infallible. If they are good FLDS they want challenge the prophets authority.
They are also cut off from family remaining in the compound. So they lose both their earthly and heavenly lives.
They are also ill equipped for the outside world-little to no education, no family or friends since they lead cloistered lives.
Let me say I don't personally care what FLDS members believe I have no desire to change their beliefs or destroy their beliefs. I don't care how consenting adults choose to live. As they break no laws...which for me means cause harm to people...even if those people are their own. I wish them peace and I pray that their leadership which has such overwhelming power over the most intimate segments of their lives doesn't abuse that power.
(Think Joan's town)
Are FLDS Nazis?...I don't think so...and I'm not saying they are (as some are saying CPS is) I only point out similarities in organization and belief systems.
Anyway, being a Nazi is not illegal in the USA...only committing crimes to support Nazi beliefs.
Being FLDS is not a crime...
raping children is...
Are they raping children?
I don't know.
You don't know.
but there was enough evidence, that despite a very sticky situation (I'm sure the Last thing Texas wanted was a battle with a religious group and weeping mothers and children, it's just real bad PR), they felt compelled to investigate.
Religion should be protected but so should children and other powerless people in a Just society.
On the news this morning they said that of the 56 teenage girls ages 14-17, 31 of them were either pregnant or had already given birth.
On the idea that the authorities are not able to know who the parents of these children are because they have similar names... I began to consider that all of the pictures of the YFZ folks that I have seen have been of Anglo people.
Is there no diversity?
Is that part of their belief system?
Are they racist as well? Is this part of the FLDS?
Of the 463 children, 250 are girls and 213 are boys. Children 13 and younger are about evenly split — 197 girls and 196 boys — but there are only 17 boys aged 14 to 17 compared with the 53 girls in that age range
Just read this.. too bad about kicking the boys out.
Anom 12:44
They are all Anglo and they are, from what I understand, all the descendants of a handful of original families that have intermarried - I think since the 18oos.
So they look alike and have the same names...because they are basically all related to each other.
As far as being racist, I don't know what individual FLDS parishioners might believe but Originally the Mormon Doctrine (that includes these fundamentalists and Main Stream Mormons- think "Osmond Family") reportedly supported the fact that "the black man" must always be a servant (sounds racist to me)
Main stream Mormons - think Osmond Family and I think also the Jackson Family (Micheal Jackson etc..) - Have Rejected this part of the Original doctrine and Polygamy.
Main Stream Mormon Doctrine IS Not Racist (just want to make sure I'm clear about that.)
Also this is the "Fundamentalist Doctrine" individual people who are FLDS don't necessarily believe this (we all have church doctrines we don't follow - I'm Catholic but I don't view the Pope as infallible)
The FLDS "doctrine" (I stress Doctrine, lots of us Do Not believe the complete Doctrines of our own Faiths so I'm sure not all FLDS people believe this)also believes that apostates (Main stream Mormons) and Gentiles (that's everyone else in the world) will be destroyed by God in the end times leaving them Masters of the world.
It seems they think They are "Isreal" which seems to me makes them mighty confused as there is no doubt that Isreal is in the Middle EAst and not in the US and Jewish people Exist and are the blood descendants of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob.
How a bunch of Midwestern, white people could confuse themselves with Middle Easterners is Beyond me....
but they believe one of their founders was a New Prophet from God and this is what he told them...
They are actually Christian...They read and from what I understand believe in the old and new testaments of the Bible...they just think all the prophecies pertain to them alone.
Lots of Christian sects, including Catholicism, have believed the same Exact Things in the past.
And there are fundamentalist Christian Groups today who also believe they are the "only chosen of God"...so that part of FLDS Doctrine is Not unique to that sect.
I am No Expert but I've become interested and have read a lot since this story started. If I am incorrect on any points please let me know.
As to the question of whether or not the FLDS is racist, go to youtube and type "Warren Jeffs racism" in the search bar. You can hear a recording of his sermon on the curse of Cain and his black skin for yourself.
You might argue that Warren is just one man and others may not share his views, but his hold on the group was so powerful, they accepted his decisions to reassign wives and children to more worthy men. You do the math...
It says in the caption that the Southern Poverty Law Center recognized the FLDS as racist in 2006 along with the Ku Klux Klan.
Thank you. I will do that.
I am wondering if they will also prosecute those at the ranch for kicking out underage boys! I sure hope they do!
And what about child trafficing? I am wondering if there will be a case for that.
I just read that they have evidence that the young boys at the ranch were sexually abused as well. I was wondering about that.
They also have evidence of physical abuse towards the children. Broken bones, etc.
SOOO sad.
The national average for childhood broken bones is a little over 12% and the average here is under 9%. Forgive me if I'm underwhelmed by the states evidence.
The only effect it has on me is to make me think CPS is making the defenses case much easier for them. This group of kids actually has *less* instances of fractures than the rest of the population. CPS with all their access to statistics and medical personnel has to KNOW this is statistically low and yet they cling to it as if it proves their case.
Fractures are an extremely common injury sustained by children; in fact it is probably the most common reason for a child to visit an orthopedic surgeon.
http://orthopedics.about.com/cs/pediatricsurgery/a/fractures.htm
http://www.nursingcenter.com/prodev/ce_article.asp?tid=677419
Collar bone and Proximal humerus fractures are both very common in very young children and are commonly caused by the birthing process. Fractures to the collar bone, elbows, radius bone, wrist, hand and finger bones are most common in children under 12 years old due to the underdeveloped structure of their bones & joints. The most common cause for all of these fractures of the upper extremities is falling and landing on outstretched arms.
It depends on the type of fractures.
But there are certain fractures like "Spiral fractures" and patterns of fractures that clearly suggest abuse.suggest abuse.
I guess time will tell.
http://archpedi.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/147/1/87
http://rad.usuhs.mil/rad/handouts/lonergan/osiabuse.html
Types of fractures associated with abuse.
There are certain types and patterns that are consistent with abuse.
they have spiritual marriages..now spiritual fractures too?
Anon 5:52 said
"they have spiritual marriages..now spiritual fractures too?"
That is quite amusing...the sad thing there probably are some people who will probably defend their fractures on "Religious Grounds" : (
The point is that the presence of old fractures in 9% of this group of kids is NOT evidence of abuse. It's evidence there was an injury but not how the injury was sustained. The links above point out that fractures in the very young can happen just by being born and that fractures in children under age 12 are very common.
Assuming the figure from 4:53's link that 24.2% of the fractures resulted from abuse that means that 9 kids out of 463 were abused - or 2%. Yes, even one is too much. The point is these people are not the ravening wolves using their children as punching bags they're being portrayed as.
http://www.findcounseling.com/journal/child-abuse/child-abuse-statistics.html
This study cites the percent of abuse experienced during childhood reported by now adult victims. Physical abuse is 14.2%.
Even if the injuries on all 41 of the FLDS kids were found to be caused by abuse at 8.8% that is still far less than the statistics for the general population.
CPS came out with the figure of 41 kids with broken bones and it seemed like everyone went immediately for their torches and pitchforks. If you stop to run the numbers and research the statistics it just does NOT support the allegations that these people abuse their children. In fact, it points to the fact that their children are *less* likely to be physically abused than the kids living in our own neighborhoods.
what are you smoking?
Think about the numbers. 1 husband, 4 -or more- wives, 3-8 children per wife. If a wife has more female than male children, and young men such as Warren jeffs nephew, Brent Jeffs, are kicked out so as not to be competition for the older men, there would be more female than male children living in that place.
Factor that in with the amount of families living in that place and that begs the question, who is left for those young girls to be married off too? How can they not be incested? I'm very interested in what will happen if those dna test prove incest.
Now that those dna tests have started coming back, one of the flds men have come up missing, willie jessop has become very eager to speak on behalf of one of warren jeffs daughters rather than lettin her -physically speak for herself-, and why Texas authorities are getting death threats, which I highly doubt are from themselves.
It sounds like the flds is getting nervous. Which they'd have no reason to be if they were confident in what they were/are doing is right. It's a clear sign they've known all along that what they're doing was/is wrong.
How can they so clearly defend themselves, yet not have had knowledge of Texas laws upon moving there? That's like walking into a venus fly trap and trying to explain they didn't know what was going to happen once they got trapped inside. No matter the outcome, it was right because they done what they were told. It doesn't make sense.
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