Thursday, November 01, 2007
Warren denounces his prophethood
This was all over the radio yesterday. I read the article on it and Judge Shumate released this information to the media. Thoughts anyone?
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If you click on the title, the article will pop up.
I think Jeffs is delusional and his cult needs to be stopped. I do not care if people choose to lead polygamous lifestyles, in fact, I think people should be able to practice any type of marriage lifestyle they like. But what I DO have a problem with is when cult leaders like Jeffs proclaim to be a prophet and elicit complete and total control over the "followers." Jeffs is an evil man and he uses the guise of being a "prophet" to live out his sick fantasies.
This is a strange developement.... What do FLDS faithful think of this, does anyone know? This seems to be a big deal having "the prophet" saying he hasn't held the priesthood since he was 20. How many marriages, ordinations, etc has he preformed without the priesthood? I'd be very interested to know what this all means.....
CTR
My goodness folks, he confessed his sin.... Isn't that enough... God on earth confessed his sin?
Oh, What Would Warren Do.......?
The better question is What Will Judge Shumate Do?
Here's an idea.
"Go forth thou vile offender and repent from afar. Verily, I say, even a far off prison cell"
CTR,
The faithful will decide that someone else was the prophet all along who just kept quiet, and that Centennial is still apostate, that Winston & group is still apostate, and will still shun their apostate relatives. After all, the FLDS discredited Charles Zitting and taught that Uncle Roy was the prophet all along, but that Uncle Roy just had to keep quiet for a time. We taught the same thing about Bro. Musser. I see a re-run in the making.
-Furnace
if warren is held to the same rules that his old man maintained, his only hope for forgiveness is blood atonement!!!
also the old testament calls for a false prophet to be stoned to death...
uncaduff
"After all, the FLDS discredited Charles Zitting..."
Furnace (or anyone), could you detail how Pres. Zitting was discredited?
"We taught the same thing about Bro. Musser."
Which Bro. Musser -- Joseph W. or Guy H. Musser?
The FLDS just omit Charles Zitting from the prophet lineage back to Joseph Smith.
POOF - he was gone from the picture.
The faithful have a unique capacity nowadays to ignore the obvious. Charles Zitting, whom I refer to as Grandpa, was removed from the lineage about 30 years after his death. He was really the only one who had taken the mantle, died, and then later on was moved out of the picture. Guy Musser was part of the upper echelon, but was never the leader, at least according to us backwards folks in CC. I remember some of my parent’s good friends from SLC trading off the virtues of Musser and URoy… “how could URoy be the prophet when Musser has such a captivating way of speaking. Surely God is on Musser’s side; URoy is just too plain and countrified”.
The one thing the faithful will have to come to terms with is how the “priesthood” was conveyed from URoy to Jeffs to warren to ?? If warren couldn’t hold the priesthood because he felt his sister up and diddled his daughter, where did it go? And who confirmed the to-be-announced new prophet? Warren has made a convincing case to the faithful that he is the prophet, he’ll have to stick with it. And I think he will for a little while longer. But even if you are part of the faithful, there comes a point when you have to admit that the pile of shit sitting in the middle of the room stinks! Some will remain forever faithful, some will not. If warren is moved aside for someone waiting in wings it would be record setting for timing. Uncle Rich had to die before they could change the Charles Zitting history, and that took almost 30 years.
LTG
Which Bro. Musser -- Joseph W. or Guy H. Musser?
both of them.
uncaduff
“how could URoy be the prophet when Musser has such a captivating way of speaking.
uncaduff says.
as far back as I can remember, I couldn't stand to listen to unca muss.
Uncle Rich had to die before they could change the Charles Zitting history, and that took almost 30 years.
LTG, they couldn't oust Joseph Musser eather till uncle Rich died,then they run a smear campaign against him. I heard Uncle Rich verify that he helped Joseph Musser ordain Rulon Alred to the Priesthood council. there's quite a story about that, but its been suppressed by the Crick Godfathers.
I was referring to Joseph Musser. I have heard rumors that even Uncle Roy's sermons have been sanitized to remove references to Pres. Musser during the time when Bro. Musser was "the one".
I find it ironic that the two things we used to discredit the AUB group has now come full circle. We have done the very things we said they did wrong, but somehow, it was right for us. We used the testimony of women (Holy Mary and Holy Naomi) to valid an ordination. Uncle Rulon had a stroke before any such supposed ordination.
I forgot to sign my name. 10:26 was by Furnace.
The campaing to remove Council members runs all the way back. That had to justify their "one man doctrine." And the problem is their "one man doctrine" didn't line up with the previous 150 and so odd years. It ran counter to EVERYTHING.
This very issue was the catalyst to the split of the C.C. and the C.P. people. The C.P. people refused to deny Bro Musser, Hammon, and Timpson. The C.C. people claimed that those men did not hold what they had been given by Bro. Barlow.
And now look. The very doctrine they promoted has come back to bite them in the ass.
for some insight into when the hanky panky started,go here.
http://www.shields-research.org/Books/Polygamy_Story/LDS-Funde_Polygamy_Story-c03.htm
that didn,t work. try:
http://www.shields-research.org/Books/polygamy_story
Isnt this old news??
it happened in the 1920s, so it is old news. but how many fundamentalists have heard about it, and understood the significance of this information?
It is just "Brother" Hales old propaganda.About like the "One-Man Doctrine" propaganda of Warren's crowd.
Jesus is the only true prieshood holder.
Truth
Anonymous said...
if warren is held to the same rules that his old man maintained, his only hope for forgiveness is blood atonement!!!
also the old testament calls for a false prophet to be stoned to death...
uncaduff
11/01/2007 5:26 PM
It would save the tax payer from housing and feeding Warren.
It is just "Brother" Hales old propaganda.
......................................
anon,10:13, who is this Hale, and what is his agenda concerning the Lorin Woolley story?
the address in the above post took me to a Mr. Andreson's work.
Brian C. Hales is an LDS scholar and intellectual who has a web site
called www.mormonfundamentalism.com
Hales research is very good.His agenda is to keep good LDS members from joining the Fundamentalists.I heard once, that he began his research to dissuade his sister's family from joining the Allred polygamist group.
thanks anon 11:09.
so is this Mr. Anderson using Hales's research or is he using his own? and are Hales conclusions faulty
regarding the wolleys,( both John and Lorin) truthfulness?
J.Maxwell Anderson is a journalist
and scholar who wrote "The Polygamy
Story?Fact or fiction?"He and Brian Hales,have collaborated on several works.Both try to prove the Wooleys to be frauds.
Another researcher the late LDS scholar,Samuel W. Taylor examined much of the same data,(contemporary journals of that time)and concluded the 1886 meeting,actually happened,as Lorin described.Note that Taylor was a son of LDS Apostle John W.Taylor,and the grandson of 3rd LDS President John Taylor,and was in no way sympathetic to Fundamentalism.So draw your own conclusions about the Wooleys truthfulness.
Warren is crazy and he'll never give up controling people.
Warren isnt half as crazy as he pretends to be.
4:20.
this really is interesting, I remember Samuel Taylor and his brother Raymond. they were at Short Creek during the uranium boom of the fifties. one, or both of them together, wrote a book about the uranium rush of the southwest. it was really interesting and well researched. I remember the Taylor brothers coming to church and even some of the dances. they sometimes went out prospecting with the guys from the crick, they were real characters and were the subject of a number of locally generated folk tales, told around the camp fires at the post cutting and fence camps.
uncaduff
Uncaduff.
What ever happened to Frank Naylor?I have not heard him mentioned since this blog started?Did he move to missouri?If so is still residing there?
Frank Naylor died years ago.
uncaduff,
I usually agree with you, but mentioning that Warren needs blood atonement will only rub it in and make him more likely to suicide himself. He himself likely believes he needs that and if he gets out of prison, he will likely try to blood atone himself instead of just confessing to Nephi. As much as I disagree with Warren, I don't want to see him suiciding himself.
3:25- I do not think Warren would commit suicide.
Ok. I was wrong. He did try. Here it is.
Wow! I (3:25) was unaware of that Tribune article when I replied to unca.
suicide wouldn't be an effective blood atonement,as would not hanging.
according to Bro. Brigham it requires an administrator, with proper authority, to literally spill the subject's blood.
Warren Jeffs speaking, "OK, just a minute," Jeffs said. "I am not the prophet. I never was the prophet, and I have been deceived by the powers of evil and Brother William E. Jessop has been the prophet since Father's passing, since the passing of my father.
"And I have been the most wicked man in this dispensation, in the eyes of God."
IMO Warren Jeffs for the first time in his life has spoken the truth.
Read the rest: Warren Jeffs Confession of Guilt
Yes Jeffs tried to commit suicide as mentioned in above article, wonder what the FLDS peple will make of this?
Was this the same time frame that about a dozen men were restored to their family and allowed back in town, only to be kicked out a week later?
My guess (I'm not flds)
"The prophet is suffering like unto Christ for our sins."
They may try to use 2Nephi 4: 17 to show that other "prophets" have had their moment of weekness.
They may say we are being tested even like unto Abraham, to see if we will forsake the prophet.
"The Lord withdrew from Warren to test him like unto the Savior when the Savior said 'Why hast thou forsaken me'. Prophets have to be tested like this"
My thoughts:
No matter who the prophet is, the emperor ain't got no clothes on, just dehydrated s**t.
IMO Warren Jeffs for the first time in his life has spoken the truth.
..................
"I am not the prophet. I never was the prophet".... [true]
-------------------------
"Brother William E. Jessop has been the prophet since Father's passing,"........ [false]
---------------------------
No matter who the prophet is, the emperor ain't got no clothes on, just dehydrated s**t. [oh so true]
[in the opinion of uncaduff]
Ok thats not everything I wanted to hear. Why doesn't Warren free his followers. They are so tied up in all the religious stuff. Whos right and wrong? I don't think any side is right. If God didn't want us to see the beautiful world and go out and live in it, why did he create it? Why does god let people live on earth if they don't believe Warren is a prophet. My goodness 99.9% of the world is going to hell, if thats the case. Does God like sending everyone to hell. isnt heaven big enough. Why did god give me a sister, and neices, and nephews if i can't see them? Doesn't God get tired of listening to so many peoples prayers, all the same asking him to put the families back together. When its Us here on earth. We are the ones that can fix that problem. WHY?, WHY?, WHy? don't WE!!!!
"If God didn't want us to see the beautiful world and go out and live in it, why did he create it?"
That's the easiest question you asked; He did it to test us to see if we would choose freedom and happiness over the "prophet".
Ok everyone,
Let me just take the time to remind you all of a few things:
1- The FLDS people do not have access to the media. They don't watch the television. They don't listen to the radio. Most of what they hear has been filtered for them before they hear it. (There are some who get the Spectrum and other news papers, though.)What they do hear they will not believe.
2- The sermon in Student Star vol. 16 where it says "The prophet can do no wrong because he is the prophet.....If God had know he would sin, he wouldn't have let him be prophet in the first place." Or something like that . It is not an exact quote.
That basically leaves a whole lot of room for the prophet to sin or do whatever the h*ll he wants and the people will still say, "He is just and good. He is the prophet. He can do no wrong. We might not understand things now, but we will just 'put it on the shelf' and obey for today."
In summary- IMHO- The FLDS people won't believe it. Warren will still be their prophet until he dies.
to Fttc and 7:48-
I think it all depends on how you perceive life. Is is a test to pass- to prove our worthiness of an eternal reward, or is it a learning experience that we go though and then receive our rest?
Today I had the opportunity to read notarized copies of the transcript of telephone conversations between Warren Jeffs and his brother Nephi, Merrill Jessop, wife number 91, and several others whose names I did not recognize. The transcript was not of just one telephone conversation between Jeffs and his followers but many (more than a dozen). In each conversation Jeffs admitted the same thing, he was a sinner, not in the priesthood since age 20 because of incidents between he and a "sister"? and a "daughter"? I will not presume to give meaning to these quotations but you can guess the meanings on your own.
He made two requests for funding for the "commissary"?, presumably Jeff's various accounts, that payments be made to lawyers handling his case. In addition Jeffs stated that various men should resume their positions, rejoin their families, exchange housing etc. He also reported upon the need for children to be re-baptised as their baptism was invalid.
Many of the statements were vague and as noted in the transcript, inaudible.
In each conversation with a principle of FLDS Jeffs recanted that he was not the Prophet. He admitted that many of his teachings were false. He instructed that William Jessop should be considered as head of the organization (my intrepetation) until a new valid leader could be found.
For an individual who for so long has insisted that his word is law, who has forced underaged girls to marry men old enough to be their grandfather, who has broken apart homes and scattered faithful followers to repent from afar, this revelation is remarkable.
Will he recant? Probably. What will his followers do now? Who knows. Nothing that I have observed has been predictable.
I just finished Carolyn Jessop's story about her escape from the crik. I honor her courage and her willingness to share her story hoping that others will gain the fortitude to stand before their demigod husbands and their harpy wives and daughters, as Carolyn did. She was smart enough to make up her own mind. I'll bet a lot of others within the group are so gifted.
May God Almighty, Creator of Heaven and Earth, Jesus Christ, His only Begotten Son and the Holy Spirit, Three in one, One in three grant to you the peace that passes understanding as you labor in a society that can't seem to know who they are, who their leaders should be, who they themselves are, and can be where they have been and where they are going.
Muggsey
warren has confessed to being a fraud, now its up to the people to repent of allowing him to work his depredations, and turn back to God.
uncaduff
bb
I was totally being facetious. I did not mean to start some profound introspection. But hey, whatever works! :-)
Unca,You hit the nail on the head.If the people would have repented,long ago,Warren would not have happened.
Videos of Warren Jeffs confessing his crimes released to public. Here is a link: Watch Warren Confess His Crimes
Clink on links to see each video.
Warren Jeffs speaks: "Warren Jeffs: As far as I possibly can be, I am sorry from the bottom of my heart. And write this.
The Lord, God of Heaven, came to my prison cell two days ago to test and detect me and he saw that I would rather defy him than obey him because of the weaknesses of my flesh. I am hesitating while I'm giving this message as the Lord dictates these words to my mind and heart.
The Lord whispers to me to have you, Nephi, send this message everywhere you can among the priesthood people and get a copy of this video, letting anyone see it who desires to see it. They will see that I voice these words myself.
I ask, write this down. The Lord told me to say, and I yearn for everyone's forgiveness for my aspiring and selfish way of life, in deceiving the elect, breaking the new and everylasting covenant and being the most wicked man on the face of the Earth in this last dispensation.
Farewell all of you, for the Lord has promised that I would be, I would have a place in the Telestial Kingdom of God, if I had my brother Nephi write these words down.
The Lord came yesterday, no, two days ago and bestowed upon me the gift to understand his words. Then he spoke to me, without the powers of evil interfering, so that I could have this opportunity to undo what I have done. And I ask for everyone's foregiveness and say farewell forever you who are worthy for Zion, for I will not be there.
Nephi Jeffs: Yes you will. This is just a test.
Warren Jeffs: Give this to all the priesthood people, this message to you, alright?"
IMO he's correct when he says he's the most wicked man on Earth.
Dose anyone out there know who this child is? Baby Grace
If so use report a tip link on above website or call 1-800-CRIME-TV
fttc..
ok I think God would rather look at his people, knowing they are happy and free. Rather than see them stuck in a little community with our noses in the air. Being rude to their family members. We know there is a prophet on earth, but god hasn't shown him to us yet. So he's letting us live and follow him, enjoying life while we wait.
Hopefully some now will have the freedom to remove their nose from it's last placement and put it into the air
Wonder who is REALLY calling the shots for FLDS now??
Boom town – FLDS in Eldorado
Much construction – one new house complete – two - three started – sewer and
water completed for more construction by block. More warehouses completed – new
one starting – rather strange stalls inside warehouse – reported as potato bins
– who knows?? Pylons added by dairy – another warehouse to be built ? New pivot
irrigation is up – makes 2 working and one on the way.. The other church is now
complete – reported that is normal services and temple is for special services.
http://web.sccn2.net/flds/11-08-07.htm
ThePilot
Pilot
How long has the meeting house been under construction? I don't remember it in the last photos you posted. How large is it in comparison to the temple?
Thanks Pilot for your excellent photos.
I have been asked to pass this message on from another:
"if you post over there could you ask Uncle Duff how Warren can make the statement that William E. Jessop should be next in line? And what does he make of Wendall Nielson?"
Thanks Pilot for your excellent photos.
I have been asked to pass this message on from another:
"if you post over there could you ask Uncle Duff how Warren can make the statement that William E. Jessop should be next in line? And what does he make of Wendall Nielson?"
Who knows why Warren does anything?
Willy Jessop is more of a kook than Wendell Nielsen.Why not the Allred brothers or Merril Jessop?Willy is the worst choice of WSJ's henchmen.
But then after "Prophet Willy"'s reign the FLDS,will probably wish they had Warren back.If any are left.
THe pictures of those casltes are awesome... So is one Warrens house and one the church? Well sucks to be all the little slaves in the cabins. No wonder they feel so high they live in castles
uncaduff said...
not unca's answer is as good as any I can give, however I cant resist repeating a little "old news".
the original method as given by Lorin Wolley was that a new member was to be appointed by an existing council of High priest Apostles, and each must receive an independent revelation concerning the new nominee . this is how we were taught as far back as I can remember. it changed when the "one man" doctrine came along. so ya, what "not uncaduff" said.
and ya, for those who say this only applies to the council, not the "key man", remember that when the "key man" passes, the "newkey man" is be the worthy senior member of the council.
I aint stickin' up for nobody here, but you guys got the wrong "Willy" here. You are talking about Slick Willy son of Glade Jessop. Ol' Warren is talking about William Edson Timpson "Jessop" who is Dell and Kathy (Jessop) Timpson's son, who adopted the "priesthood" name of Jessop when Kathy married Uncle Fred. If I got to choose who was boss out of the three of them, I would choose Will Timpson any day.
A person would have to be insane to choose any of the three to be boss."Willie Tee"included.
UncaDuff,
I am hoping that you might be able to help me out with the proper holder of the "keys". And the proper procedure introducing the next in line Prophet.
If you don't mind could you explain the passage from Joseph Smith on down?
And how does William E. Timpson- Jessop fit into this lineage?
Thank you for your time.
Walton
Walton,
This group has never followed Lorin Wooley's teaching about how the next leader,is to be chosen.
Example:According to L.Wooley the senior council member is the next
leader.after the previous leaders death.In 1954 after J.Mussers death
Charles Zitting was next.not Roy Johnson.After Zitting,Legrand Wooley,but Wooley was never recognized out side his own small group.after Wooley,Louis Kelsch,held seniority,but he was not recognized by this group nor the Allred group.After kelsch's death in 1974,Roy Johnson was the senior until his own death in 1986.
After Roy,Marion Hammon was next in seniority.But Rulon Jeffs was in
control,Warren took over from him.
There is no organized group that follows a succesion line strictly as taught by Lorin Wooley at this time
Thank you for your reply.
In a nutshell, Warren never had the keys did he?.... nor did Rulon? ...And neither will the next chosen?
I mean no disrespect. I am just trying to understand the passing of the keys and how it is to be that a Prophet is named.
Again thank you for your time.
Walton
Walton, the anonymous poster above is absolutely correct. my question is, if these so called "keys" ever existed, why has there always been such confusion about who "held" them?
esp. in light of Christs warning that, "many shall come in my name...believe NONE of them". and, he says that when he returns, it will be as plain as; "the light rising in the east and spreading to the west".
if we have any pretense of a Christian heritage, the new testament leaves little excuse for any belief in the likes of Warren or Willie, or any one speaking in the name of Christ.
sorry for the venting.
uncaduff
Uncaduff
I have been taught that the keys certainly did pass in the way that you describe Lorin Woolley as teaching.
There were many circumstances at the ordination of Rulon Allred that raise questions in my mind about its validity. At any rate he was not the senior member by ordination at his departing with his group.
Uncle Roy always held that he accepted Joseph Musser and Charles Zitting as 'key holders' until he had his illness at the end of his life. I have heard testimony of several men that spoke with him even during those years that heard him uphold them. I know the usurping elders at the time were teaching otherwise.
As for Legrand Woolley and Louis Kelsch I have testimony from men that Uncle Roy told them he reported to Uncle Legrand and Uncle Louis in their respective order and they told him they did not want the responsibility. As he was next in order it fell to him to preside.
I won't mention Rulon Jeffs coming to leadership as that is another and larger can of worms. Can you give me documentary proof that it is other than I have stated here with any of these men up to Uncle Roy? I am not old enough to have been much involved before the 1980s so any info you can provide would be helpful.
fttc, I know of no "proof", documentary or otherwise, that indicates thats its different than you stated. I personally heard Uncle Roy tell of visiting Kelch and Woolley, and it was as you said. I also heard Uncle Roy as well as Uncle Rich, acknowledge Joeseph Musser as holding the "keys". there was never any question among us at Short creek/ Colorado city, about this, until
the notorious "one man" doctrine started to be whispered about.
uncaduff
Many thanks.
Fttc,
Many,many things got said in Uncle Roy's name that he himself was never aware of.Especially while he was sick,1978-1984.I personally witnessed several incidents,where Uncle Roy told some people to tell the congregation one thing,and they went and did the exact opposite of what U.Roy said.And then they reported back to U.Roy mission accomplished.
I can provide names and details of those involved,but wont in the unless you request,interest of peace.
Oh yeah, 11:39, Now would be an excellent time to give that dead horse a few more peacful lashes.
Very interesting conversation you have going on here, guys. There are many unique view points here sometimes it's nice to just observe.
I was taught the same thing fttc was- that U. Roy went to Louis Kelsh and LeGrande Wolley before assuming the keys himself.
I was also taught Charls's Zitting's authority was respected until his death- just not his brother's supposed relaying of his authority that was used to lead a group of people away. That when U. Roy asked Marrion Hammon to step down, he also revoked Marion's apostleship making Rulon Jeffs (then or later?) the next in line for the keys. Parley Harker was Rulon's first councilor until he died and Warren was appointed to that position. I think a lot of people thought it was going to be U. Fred.
I hope I have not offended anyone by this. It was not my intention and I do not believe in any of it any more. I really do not want to debate something I no longer believe in. I think it is entirely possible some of it may be incorrect. :)
But it seems to be there was a lot of authority usurping of the younger men from the older men with failing health in all these instance from Charls Zitting down to Rulon Jeffs. This is where you repeatedly hear the phrase "Senile old man" by those who are trying to justify one side of it or the other. So you see? the FLDS people think they ARE choosing their prophets as directed by Lorin Wooley.
Willie T. was ordained by Warren, after U. Fred died, NOT by Rulon- making his claim to the keys invalid if you take into consideration Warren's not having the priesthood since he was twenty. Also, if Warren no longer holds the priesthood and isn't and never has been prophet he most certainly does not have the authority to name his successor. Warren cleaned out all the men in authority except himself. Willie T., Merrill Jessop, and Wendall Nielson. But if you once again take the question of Warren's priesthood into consideration in the behalf of all the leading men Warren kicked out of town who would really be the one with the highest priesthood- thus heir to the keys? As far as I am aware, these men were asked to leave because Warren questioned their loyalty- not for any real sins and they have been 'repenting from afar' ever since. So the real question is, who has the highest authority? Would it be Alan Steed? Joseph I Barlow? Trueman Barlow? Sam Barlow? Nephi Barlow? Or Merrill or Wendall?
Also, just for the fun of it, let's play the "what-if" game. What if Warren's extreme behavior had not caused the UEP to have it's assets frozen by the judge? What if he hadn't blatantly told men to remove valuable pieces of said assets? What if there had never been a warrant out for his arrest because he had paid the judge? What if he hadn't tried to dodge arrest? What if he hadn't been put on the Top Ten Most Wanted list? What if he hadn't been caught? Do you think he would have confessed to his sins? IMHO- not bloody likely!
Or would it be Winstone?
Winstone?
I think Winston has as many "sins" as mr. profit.
He is just more charming and stays under the radar of marrying underage girls, which by the way he has admitted.
And....Winston is such a gallant liar.
How about putting the true key holder in charge of the church.
Jesus
Truth
Thank you to everyone who has tried to answer my questions. This indeed is a very interesting topic.
I've been reading and searching.
If someone is a true Prophet why does it take others to "vote" him in? Isn't the placement of a True Prophet up to God?
Seems as though there has been questions about who should be in charge even at the time when Joseph Smith died.
Did Brigham Young truly have the keys? John Taylor? John W. Woolley?
Even some of these men questioned themselves being called Prophet.
What of Ben Johnson? Does he fit in? Sidney Rigdon?
Maybe the True Prophet walks with us. Maybe we are the keyholders and the keys are in our hearts and our faith. Just a thought.
Walton
Walton, if you want to know who your "true Priesthood head" is, prayerfully study your new testament.
all of it. it has not been purposely tampered with or mistranslated.
uncaduff
And....Winston is such a gallant liar.
------------------------------------
11/10 4:58..
any specifics, anonymous?
uncaduff
Walton asked many questions about priesthood, if one believes that Joseph Smith recieved the keys to the preisthood then Doctrine & Covenants 102 applies.
3 Joseph Smith, Jun., Sidney Rigdon and Frederick G. Williams were acknowledged presidents by the voice of the council; and Joseph Smith, Sen., John Smith, Joseph Coe, John Johnson, Martin Harris, John S. Carter, Jared Carter, Oliver Cowdery, Samuel H. Smith, Orson Hyde, Sylvester Smith, and Luke Johnson, high priests, were chosen to be a standing council for the church, by the unanimous voice of the council.
8 Voted: that whenever any vacancy shall occur by the death, removal from office for transgression, or removal from the bounds of this church government, of any one of the above-named councilors, it shall be filled by the nomination of the president or presidents, and sanctioned by the voice of a general council of high priests, convened for that purpose, to act in the name of the church.
9 The president of the church, who is also the president of the council, is appointed by revelation, and backnowledged in his administration by the voice of the church.
D & C 102
What above says is that if President of church dies, is removed from office or otherwise unable to carry out duties of office verses 7 to 9 apply. In the LDS church this council is called Quorum of the 12.
So it would appear that the President/Prophet of the church would be nominated by revelation recieved by members of above council, which would then nominate vote to accept new prophet, then the church membership would vote to sustain or reject.
In Catholic church the Pope is belived to hold the keys to preisthood, he is elected by the Cardinals of the church and is belived to have the keys in direct succession from Apostle Peter.
As to the belief that the preisthood is held by all belivers in Christ. Walton's statement "Maybe we are the keyholders and the keys are in our hearts and our faith. Just a thought." This is know as the Preisthood of the believer, a doctrine of the Southern Baptist Church. Preisthood Baptist
So if you are LDS you believe Gordon B. Hinckley holds the keys to the preisthood through direct succession from Joseph Smith who recieved them because of apostasy.
If you are Catholic you believe there has been no apostasy and the Pope holds the keys to Preisthood in direct succession from Apostle Peter.
If you are Baptist then belive in Preisthood of believer.
IMO Joseph Smith recieved the keys and that Gordon Hinckley now holds them. LDS Church
Interesting comments.
It is my opinion that everyone should understand the gospel and have enough of the Spirit of God that they can know whether or not they are being led correctly. It is our duty to know and understand for ourselves. Some day we will have to account to a higher judge for the choices we make. What will it sound like to report that we were obedient to some earthly man who turned out to be unrighteous and evil? We need to find the truth and follow that narrow path.
D&C 121--39 and 40
"WE have learned by sad experience that it is the nature and disposition of almost all men, as soon as they get a little authority, as they suppose, they will immediately begin to exercise unrighteous dominion."
"Hence many are called, but few are chosen."
jc
The doctrine of 'the Priesthood of the Believer', as has been taughht and learned by Southern Baptists follows this general hypothesis:
An individual person, is a sinner until he accepts Jesus Christ as his Lord and Savior, receives personal salvation and the infilling of the Holy Spirit upon his/her acceptance of the shed blood of Jesus as the sole purchase price, pre-paid on the cross for that individual's eternal salvation. Baptists, and many others incidently also teach that salvation is once, for all. An individual who sins following his confession of faith is not lost again but has 'back slidden'. His salvation is eternal and cannot ever be lost.
If the individual made a big to do about joining the church and being baptized to guarantee his salvation he will find himself terribly disapointed if he doesn't follow the Lord in service. Without service, following confession of faith, there is no evidence that the individual's confession was genuine. I can't judge whether that indivual's testimony of salvation is genuine or not. Only the Lord Jesus Christ has that answer. If indeed his confession bares fruit and gives witness by a changed life then it would be reasonable for we humans to believe we are observing evidence of salvation.
If that individual, professing and bearing witness to that salvation could be lost then it would be necessary for Christ to die a second time in order to redeem that individual's second sin.
What? Is not Christ's atoning death on the cross sufficient payment for the sins of his creation, man, for all time? With all my heart and soul I firmly believe the answer to this question is undenyably yes.
With this doctrine in mind I will now address the topic of Priesthood of the Believer.
Upon his/her redemption, he/she is able to pray for forgivness for themselves and the sins of others. He first is a believer in Christ. Is he without sin? No, but he has been saved! He therefore, in the eyes of God is considered to be sinless. Why? Because Jesus has claimed this individual as his own, forever. (We believe our eternity began at the moment we accepted the shed blood of Jesus as payment for our sin, once for all.) We are in eternity now! An indivdual who is living the life of belief and trust in God's Grace is consided sinless. Being sinless this individual can interceed in behalf of a brother or sister whom may be having difficulties, who needs a friend who understands weakness and sin, who can give Christlike love, in Jesus'Name to the person in trouble. We believe that this ability to serve the need of others is a gift of the Holy Spirit which was and is being given to us who believe for the purpose of addressing the Lord in behalf of ourselves or a sinner who knows not Jesus, or a brother or sister who has strayed and needs confort, direction and council. This form of Priesthood is not judgemental, does not condemn his brothers and sisters for what he or she might deem as sin in their own eyes. There, but for the Grace of God, go I. We are sinners, saved by Grace given the work of Priesthood as believers. This duty follows our salvation. We cannot perform Priesthood activities without our first having accepted Jesus as our Lord and Savior. The acts of Priesthood are works of the Holy Spirit, using us to communicate the love of God to a sin sick world.
You cannot become a priest upon your own volition. Priesthood, only available to the believer is evidence of God, at work through the guidance of the Holy Spirit in the lives of those humans who willingly have given their lives to HIS service. Priesthood of the Believer is a work of love.
Is Boycotting Disney a "work of love"?
anonymous @ 11/11 2:25
By key I mean faith.And I think that faith is in our heart.
I don't know if Joseph Smith had any magical keys. I don't know if those that were "elected" to be Prophet had any magical keys.
I do believe that there are certain people here on Earth that are special and are doing Gods work. President Hinckley being one of them.
Walton
6:56-
Thank you for your explanation. I knew about some of it, but I never really understood the thought process behind this form of religion. It is beautiful.
The boycott of Disney resulted from Disney, Inc. allowing a group of individuals into their theme park who were there to demonstrate and promote the act of homosexuality. Disney did not care enough to warn the parents of impressionabe children that these persons were to be honored in what is normally considered as a theme park for children. Those who boycotted had and have the right to determine actions and activities which they preceive to be harmful to their children. Aren't most child molestation cases determined to have been begun by adults with homosexual tendencies?
We don't have to condemn homosexuality, the Bible has done so, in several places. Genesis 19:1-11; This passage tells the story of Lot, nephew of Abraham, who had made his home in Sodom. Angels of the Lord came to his home, residents of Sodom, recognizing that there were some new male visitors in Lot's home made an effort to engage these men in homosexual activity; Leviticus Chapt. 18 (General sexual behavior) v. 22 specific re. homosexuality. The evil of Sodom is also mentioned in Jefremiah 23:14; Ezekiel 16:49-50; 2 Peter 2:6-10, Jude 7. A summary of God's judgement can be found in Revelation 21:8. I find no apology from God to those who practice this abnormal behavior. They are told, that their action is an abomination and in no uncertain terms, what their eternal destiny will be.
In the Holiness Code of Leviticus, homosexuality is considerfed an abomination (18:22) and such behavior was to be punished by death (20:13.) See also Romans 1:26-27; Romans 1:32; 1 Cor. 6:9-11; 1 Tim. 1:10.
The Biblle does not recognize homosexuality as biologically constitutional or hereditary (as a kind of third sex) but sees its roots in the sinful nature of man--a psychosocial, learned behavior, expresing rebellion against God and caling for redemption. Such persons are responsible for their behavior.
I was not at Disney, nor do I have plans to go. Observation of human beings pretending to be something they aren't is repulsive as far as I am concerned. This is a personal opinion, not a judgement. I don't have to judge, God has completed that task without my aid.
11/14 2:01
Yes, those who boycott love their children enough to deny them a long expected day in a theme park.
Disney doesn't care.
One thing positive came from the incident, parents were forced to address the issue with their children and give guidence that hopefully did and will deter those children, by being aware of just what is being proposed should they be approached by a friend or stranger proposing such activity as fun, harmless, and "everyone" is doing it, you don't want to be left out.
The better informed, the better armed.
anon 11:13;
I wonder how would you react then, if a child of yours was homosexual.
(and this is totally hypothetical)
but, if it's true that this is a 'learned behaviour', a deviancy if you will, how could you blame anybody but yourself? could you find your child guilty of a crime punishable by death?
its official, Warren's attorneys announced to day that he has RESIGNED as prophet.
and its about time. his followers are never going to believe it, tho.
shinto do your parents care that your a homo
Shinto, We Don't.
uncaduff, you died with Uncle Roy.
didn't you tell the story of his: "You can push the damper in or pull the damper out but the smoke still goes up the chimmny." ?
anonymuss, your point being?
from behind the veil.
uncaduff
Skunky, it means that you can't contain the doctrine or the authority. Up in smoke.
"Ahh, he's only denounced the privilege of his prophecy upon sinners and homos."
Street,
Does this mean that the word of the lord is no longer to all people?
"No pearls before swine". Oink Oink. That is the word of the Lord. I have only been chucking coal at you, Chucky, diamonds in the rough. Ruff Ruff.
Street,
Don't you believe the word of the lord given in D&C sec 1?
"For verily the voice of the Lord is unto all men, and there is none to escape;"
It says nothing about swine, or some being more or less worthy to receive the word of the lord.
The Atheist (12/27/2007 7:35 PM):
First, you have to re-member what we are talking about here, the Prophet denouncing his position, and his preaching to the world. Children easilly lose focus in their play. His preaching never has been to the Gentiles. That ended in 1890, long before he was born, according to the Word of God (Sections 14:10, 19:27, 90:9, 107:33, 107:97). You’re just trying to pit one part of the Word of God against another, while trying to justify your sins and to catch the Lord’s Prophet in some sort of imagined lie.
The Gospel IS unto all men who would, but what did your Lord say: “But they would not”. Therefore, according to His justice and design, it is take from them and given to another, in perfect consistency with what God has done throughout the history of the world, setting up and tearing down nations according to this law. Maybe you’re feeling your loss, and that would be a beginning, for you have taken one scripture out of context, and even that was misapplied, for it says: “The voice of the Lord is unto all men”, but what else? If they reject it, then “there is none to escape”. He decreed that “FEW THERE BE THAT FIND IT”, this priceless jewel, because there is no clarity without purity. We are talking sexual purity, the foundation of both family and kingdom and soul. Without that, you lose it all.
The Lord says plenty about swine, and dividing the hoof or the people, and who can receive and who cannot, and you call God’s word “NOTHING”! (Lev.11:7; Deut.14:8; Prov.11:22; Is.65:4; 66:3; Mt.7:6, 8:30; Mk.5:11; Lk.8:32, 15:15). Your rejection of God’s word is now GLARINGLY evident unto all intelligence. There are HUNDREDS of scriptures that delineate between those worthy and those unworthy to receive. Anyone want me to list them all. I’d be glad to, and you call it all A LIE!!!
I will remind you that you are speaking on a forum that is based within the American “Bible Belt”. Those poor people are probably aghast and speechless over your assertions. You just show yourself as an atheist, in which case you really have nothing to say, for you have nothing to believe.
Street
y'know street,
that was about as close to a logical response without your usual vulgarities that you have made in quite a while. Good job!
I can't say I agree with most of it, but at least it was fairly well and respectfully written.
Just curious, but do you really believe what you write or is it written just to see what kind of a response you can get out of others?
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