FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs may be serving life in prison, but his followers continue with their work on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas where the group's white limestone Temple towers over the town they are building. Polygamy, the practice of plural marriage, appears to be alive and well in the Lone Star State, despite laws to the contrary.
Saturday, November 17, 2007
Building Vanished
Tuesday Morning 5 cranes and over 100 men gathered at Nephi Barlow's steel building in Colo City, by nightfall it was gone. Prob headed to Texas. It was next to Meadowayne Dairy, on commercial land.
Both Colorado City and Hildale City have land zoned as industrial/commercial. This land is not UEP, but owned by the city and leased to the entity that uses it.
The building that was removed was on this leased land that is not part of the UEP.
Correction, rumor; it took them two days to take the sheeting of and dismantle the steel. That is still very fast.
It looks like the buildings are "qualifing" a little faster than the people to go to "zion." :)
The last time I lived in town the buildings had just started to disappear. It was winter then, too.
I was there at that last meeting when Warren told the people they were idol worshipers for erecting that statue in honor of their faithful ancestors who survived the 1953 raid, and as a result the Lord was withholding His blessing from the people and there would no longer be church held on Sunday or baptisms or marriages. (funny how some people still got married.) Everything that was happening was so secret. There was so much tension. Good men started loosing their families left and right for no reason at all. Warren had everyone playing 'musical houses' and buildings started to disappear into thin air and NO ONE knew (or would say) where they went or why. I even hear rumors that the apostates (recent ones) had taken them - and I knew that was a complete lie. I read in the news paper about the land that had been purchased in Texas. I didn't believe it at first- not until I saw pictures of the temple as it was being constructed. And I felt SO BETRAYED.
Suddenly I could see the real reasons behind what was happening. Warren didn't want to people communicating with one another. But this was a close knit community and EVERYONE knew when some family or another didn't make it to church on Sunday. How could entire families simply disappear without the rest of the town knowing? The best way to keep the people from noticing was for Warren to stop mass meetings. He wanted to keep the knowledge of Texas away from the ones he didn't like and didn't want with him. He was just going to leave them to their fate. Then "one will be taken and the other left" became abundantly clear to me and it didn't seem like some beautiful passage of scripture any longer- it was cruel.
HOW could Warren do that to these people who love and live and breathe and work and sacrifice FOR HIM???!!!
And I felt SO BETRAYED. ________________________________ bbgae,the "beautiful passage of scripture" that we all ignored, was,"trust not in Man, but trust in God" To ignore this, is to leave yourself wide open to betrayal. uncaduff
Do you feel that Warren was waiting for an excuse and used the monument (and slide show) as the excuse. If that had not happened, do you feel some other event would have been his scapegoat?
1:42- That is something I have not considered before. I guess my answer is yes and no. We all knew statues were considered idols. I guess the thought at the time was it would be ok because it was meant as a symbol of honor and respect for the faithful that had gone on before us and to remind us to strive to be as faithful as they. It was not meant to be anything but good- but given Warren's extreme nature, we all should have known better. I guess I can't blame Warren for that.
However, I do think Warren would have found some other way to stop meetings if these events had not occurred.
And, no- I didn't actually go to the ceremony or even see the statue or the slide show. I just heard about them.
I just happened, check www.thespectrum.com or www.sltrib.com and they will have it on their front page.
Mr. Shurtleff is also trying to get Warren to pay $100,000 for the extra security at the trial. It seems funny to me that they would want extra security to keep his fanatic cult from rescueing him and then billing him for, but maybe i'm just extra ignorant today.
Wow, Warren is going to learn that its better to give that to receive. Especially when he is the receiver and Bubba is the giver. Hope he rooms with a black person. That would really be justice for such a racist bigot like Warren.
Whether justice was served remains to be seen as related to Warren Jeffs having received the two back-to-back sentences of 5 to life.
Will his sepparation, (long term) from his faithful slaves alter their lifestyles? Laws are still on the books that enable similar justice to me meaded out to anyone who takes his place and emulates his behavior.
What does FLDS have to fear? I heard a recent story concerning a large group of FLDS women going into a grocery store in a nearby city. They were described as an awe stricken group who appeared to have never seen so much. ONe of the younger women saw fresh grapes on display, picked up a large cluster and took it to what appeared to be the eldest of the women for approval. Hanging her head she returned the grapes she returned to the group.
Just think, the innocence of that younng woman, in all probability having never seen such bounty and who in all probability innocently had a sudden desire to taste fresh grapes. Perhaps she was pregnant and was having an urge for fresh fruit, who knows.
Carolyn Jessop's recent book gives insight to a virtual prison life led by the women and children within the walls of an FLDS community.
Oh Lord, hear the prayer of those innocents who are being held captive by tyrants governing a cult witout mercy. Give them faith and hope for deliverence.
3:53- You seem like someone with good intentions. However-
In all probability, your large group of women could have been just one family doing their regular grocery shopping.
In all probability, the younger woman who brought the grapes to the older woman for approval could have been HER DAUGHTER.
In all probability she MOST ASSUREDLY had seen grapes before and liked them and that was why she was asking her mother for them.
Not all FLDS families function the same. Each one is different because it is comprised of different people and in every family, the father/ husband is the boss. Different men run things differently to the same purposes. Not all FLDS families are like Caroline Jessop's ex-family.
Interview after interview, book after book, testimony after testimony the absolute dominance of the male priest/rapist/child molester/sadist/co-conspiritor/sodomite/abser of women and children/selfish/proud/fearful underlings who cow-tow to an unbelievable set of socitial rules at the expense of their wives and children. Who have created of themselves, in their own eyes, a god like person who is to reign his own universe. Who is without love or mercy. Who takes the meger earnings of members of his family to help pay his way into godship. Foolishness, an absolute lie who not only abuses his family but continues to play a game, and that's all it is.
In this game HE, reincarnate Satan whose eternal desire is to replace God. Who has been led by charltans (plural) into a destructive lifestyle that has no love only self worship.
Satan wanted to be God, that is the reason he was cast from heaven along with his angels.
Question? Do you suppose that he and his demonic hosts not only led eastern peoples in casting idols for worship but, are in the process of making idols of themselves and forcing their society to worship them? Evidence would seem to support this hypothesis.
The devil, like the leopard cannot change his spots. SELF is his object of worship.
If it is written in a book, shown on national TV, or printed in the paper it must be the truth. Is that what I'm to understand from your post?
I have read many of the news stories and read some of the books, including Carolyn's, and I must say there are two sides to every story.... and then there is the truth.
I have not seen all that has happened out here, nor do I want to, but be very careful making a blanket statement about a people you apparently do not know. The majority of the people are hard working, industrious, and loving parents. I think their biggest fault may be that they are too TRUSTING, thus opening the door to predators and power abusers. It is the ones who want to control those under their care and those around them, those who aspire to positions of authority, that cause problems and give this people a bad name.
Last I checked, women in the world who divorced or left a controlling husband, boss, organization, etc didn't have a lot of good things to say about that person or group. Does not mean that those who were friends, coworkers, etc of the person or organization were also controlling and/or abusive.
Do I think that the FLDS is a perfect people? Far from it. I certainly don’t consider myself a perfect person. Do you consider yourself perfect enough to judge a complete people?
As an "outsider" in a nearby town, may I offer a few observations:
It is not the fresh foods that catch the eye of the Shrort-Crickers in our big stores. They already have the best produce and dairy products available anywhere. That would include ice cream and "squeaky cheese" as well.
They do stand with their jaws dropped at the technology available in Wal-Mart and Sam's Club. However, the lack of plasma TV's and HDTV and all that goes with it is a good thing.
The bad part is where they go nuts over greasy, sugary, "American" foods at our fast food establishments.
If you were to take away the polygamy and control factors, Colorado City would be a wonderful kind of a place to raise a family.
Oh My. I just realized that Monogamy is the answer to all our problems. I have been on this planet for sometime and it just dawned on me that the reason that there is so much peace and harmony on this planet is because of Monogamy. God Bless all the Monogamist and please tell all the polygamist that every problem stems from their corrupt Life styles. All the Maham, murder,sickness,pestilance,adultery,fornication,you name and link it to their society is really what it is all about. Thanks for all the examples of righteousness and purity. It also dawned on me that since we have Warren Jeffs in jail that that state of utah as one a battle but not the war. God Bless Warren S Jeffs.
Oh My. I just realized that Monogamy is the answer to all our.......God Bless Warren S Jeffs. _____________________________________ what part of "Polygamy is not the issue here" don't you understand? and Warren has declared a greater condemnation on his own self than even the state of Utah, ie, " the most wicked man on earth since Adam" unless he was lying then too , he's going to need blessed. uncaduff
Well either way; Warren lied about being a prophet or he lied about not being a prophet. Now you would think those that followed him need to sort this out to find what or who they can believe in.
Polygamy roots...... Genesis 4:15 And Jehovah said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And Jehovah appointed a sign for Cain, lest any finding him should smite him.
4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of Jehovah, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
4:18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methushael; and Methushael begat Lamech.
4:19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
4:20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents and have cattle.
4:21 And his brother’s name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and pipe.
4:22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubal-cain, the forger of every cutting instrument of brass and iron: and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah.
4:23 And Lamech said unto his wives: Adah and Zillah, hear my voice; Ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: For I have slain a man for wounding me, And a young man for bruising me:
4:24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, Truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
Monogamy.... Genesis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth. For, said she, God hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel; for Cain slew him.
4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enosh.
Then began men to call upon the name of Jehovah.
5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
5:2 male and female created he them, and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
5:3 And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
5:4 and the days of Adam after he begat Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters.
5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
5:6 And Seth lived a hundred and five years, and begat Enosh:
5:7 and Seth lived after he begat Enosh eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:8 and all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
5:9 And Enosh lived ninety years, and begat Kenan.
5:10 and Enosh lived after he begat Kenan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:11 and all the days of Enosh were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
5:12 And Kenan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalalel:
5:13 and Kenan lived after he begat Mahalalel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:14 and all the days of Kenan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
5:15 And Mahalalel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
5:16 And Mahalalel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters: 5:17 and all the days of Mahalalel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
5:18 And Jared lived a hundred sixty and two years, and begat Enoch:
5:19 and Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
5:22 and Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:23 and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
5:24 and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
5:25 And Methuselah lived a hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech:
5:26 and Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters.
5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
5:28 And Lamech lived a hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
5:29 and he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us in our work and in the toil of our hands, which cometh because of the ground which Jehovah hath cursed.
5:30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
It is most strange that no member of the priesthood would ever admit to ANY of those acts of cruelty described in many revealing documentations, given first hand by those who experienced whatsoever. Never truth. DENY, DENY, DENY! You've got your children and women trapped, not for celestial, terrestral glory as determined by your idea of salvation, or as controled by yourselves, but your hate and need to dominate ensure their eternal damnation, as well as your own.
God made the rules. Joseph Smith was a pirate robber who visited the cat house too often, drank too much rot gut whiskey that in order to justify himself he had to INVENT A RELIGEON. While he was bed hopping, no doubt satisfying himself carnlly with some of your great-great ----- grandmothers, In order to keep himself out of trouble with his "flock" of sheeple he roped in a few other good old boys who liked to jump beds as much as he himself did. they then formed themselves into a group and called themselves Apostles, led by their infamous profit JS (js) (unworthy of capital letters)
We know these truths. There have been many writers both Mormon and non Mormon who have attested to smith's behavior as previously described. So, you want us to choose your way? We don't know anything except what we read, see on T.V. or is reported by those whom have ESCAPED the tyrany of FLDS. They certainly didn't drive out of C.C. in a red Cadillac Escalante, with thousands of dollars in cash, scanners, gift cards, cell phones, laptop computers et. al. misc. wealth. If they were able to escape at all they were most blessed of a loving God. Why? Because they recognized the error of their former life and the enslavement from which they escaped. I wonder how many others have attempted to escape? How many have been blood atoned?
IIMOC, oh thou of smooth finger word sharing via internet. You are the one who can't face the truth. If you read Carolyn Jessup's book how did you personally fit into her debasement, repeated sexual abuse, by wj, by Merill, by Nancy Jessop and the other sister wives? You simply will not face the truth. You were born into your false assumption that upon your death you would climb Joseph's ladder (not Jacob's).
The only problem is that Joseph's ladder is an elevator headed straight down, it never varies, has no exits and stops only at the iron doors of that blast-furnace called hell. This esculator does not return from its destination. It does stop at the top to allow a few more Mormon souls to be lured or thrown in as fuel reserve. From what I read in your teachings the fuel supply is unlimited.
I see it now - - - - good ol'IIMOC fighting and screaming his head off cursing j.s. and also against all those who preceeded him and threw his soul in hell. Now go back and read the on again off again D&C 132;
A very wise person once said "We see the World and those in it not as they are, but as we ourselves are."
A good person is a good because of their actions, not their religion or religious calling, ethnicity, or location on this globe. Same goes for a bad person. They are bad because of their actions.
IITOMC, your a man of understanding. if parts of ones religion encourages one to good actions,then those parts of ones religion are true. the rest is deception. uncaduff
Our actions, (as you say it "what we do"). Whee I disagree is that the Bible is crammed full of scripture related to God's Judgement. In mormon you hole each other accountable because you do not believe in the One True and Living. Hi is not Jesus' father figure except when in flesh and on earth for the sole purpose of our redemption through his shed blood.
Now, and since his assention to the throne of Gopd only accents the fact that although Jesus appeared in human form he declared as did Martha, Peter, the woman at the well and many other persons to whom he ministered while on earth.
God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one person. None is inferior to the other. Each person has had or has a task to perform related to man on earth. They have not failed in their self assigned tasks. Who is God's superior? He has non. He is complete. he is creator, sustainer, savior and communicator with man. If man's prayers are only shopping lists God frequently will not honor them. If man's prayer is for guidance, for purpose of worship and praise. Shopping should be done at Wal-Mart or your home town equivilent.
He who attempts to make fool of God only demonstrates his own future abvsolute separation from God, but all other persons on earth who believed and trusted in Jesus name.
It is most strange that no known member of the priesthood would ever admit to ANY of those acts of cruelty described in many revealing documents, presented with the aid of first hand experience, published many times by the person who experienced that to which you would deny. To protect the priesthood tell any lie, never tell the truth about anything, unless you find it to your advantage to do so, DENY - DENY - DENY! You have your wives and children trapped in a cult that attempts and succeeds at stealing the very souls of those who believe the things told to them by a century and a half of false prophets. You know that there is no way that you or any of your priesthood brothers, uncles, prophets can usher anyone into an everlasting life. They never have paid the price. Their collateral is worthless. The foolsih invention of a multi-level future does not come from God's word but out of the mouth of a liar, scoundrel, thief etc. I mean js.
Incidently, God made the rules. He made them long ago. They are unchanging because they represent the loving, kind, and just living God, passed on by divine inspiration to the true writers of scripture which include Moses, Samuel, David, Solomon, Ezra, Ezekiel, Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Amos, Joel, Nahum, Hosea, Habakkuk, Zechariah, Johah, Malachi, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Titus, Peter, Jude.
All so called divinely inspired works have failed the test of each, when studied against other texts,mentioning similar situations or events or circumstances do not conflict each other.
Concerning the works of js and followers: Just as four witnesses to an accident will report four different versions of what they witnessed, so are the ramblings of mormon, pearl, D&C etc. How can you know if some witnesses support similar points as seen by some of the witnesses, not seen by others. There is no agreement, even among two individuals regarding other points of view.
There are however, more than just a hand full of persons who were all there, all saw and all agreed as to what happened. Those indivuals were God's chosen instruments, who were inspired by God's one and only Holy Spirit to write what God told them to write.
With the passage of time scoffers and historians who were previously agnostic in their view of God now have come into belief of God's mercy to save a sinful dying world.
js, your great prophet was best known as a pirate, a robber, a scoundrel, a thief. In order to justify himself and his perfidity he had to invent a religion that was to him was self justifying. Because js said he had received a vision doesn't mean that anyone else received a like vision nor ever saw a stack of "tin" plates which he claimed were another testament of Jesus Christ. In the meantime js did not cease his visitation with scarlet women nor even the wives and daughters of some of his closest followers. These truths concerning js have been researched and documented over and over again. Even many of your scholars have taken issue with smith's revelations. Gods message never changes, nor does HE. How do you know that one of your ancestor grandmothers wasn't js' quick lay in the hay?
I can't help but wonder why more of your slaves haven't sought freedom. You have given the earnings and govermental subsidies over into the care of your priesthood who have taken profits from the businesses that they operate and given it into the care of a modern day js. Fortunately, for your sake, he now abides in jail and will hopefully, for your sake remain there the rest of his life.
Wouldn't each of you priests like to escape his clutches in a red Cadillac with thousands of dollars in cash, gift cards, phone cards, police scanners, radar detectors, disguises, laptop computers et. al. misc. wealth traveling in a tee shirt without your long john garments in sight!
Those who have been able to escape the slavery of js' invention are the most blessed of God. I have seen videos made by women and men who escaped your prison. They have come into the undesputed fact that Christ died for THEM, ALL OF THEM. They needen't work like a slave, be abused by 'sister?' wives, raped by their fathers, brothers or any other male with the punch allowing him to do as he will, with the blessing of the profit. Why have not other women and men attempted to escape the confines of the compounds which surround each of their outlying settlements with the exception of Hildale and Colorado City? In order to have the fortatude to dare to escape they must face the truth. You were born under the false assumption that upon your death you couldn't get into a higher heaven without the assistance of your husband, who's job itt is supposed to be, pull you through the veil into the next life.
It is appointed man once to die, and then comes the judgement.
You were taught that upon your death, with your god priest pulling you along you could climb joseph's ladder into eternal bliss. Note, Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham is the individual in the book of Genesis who, as he slept dreamed of Angels accending and decending a ladder into God's presence. If you choose God's plan, choose Jacob's ladder. You will be safe and secure in the hands of the Loving God, Prince of Peace, Comfortor instead of js's intent for you to climb HIS ladder into eternal bliss. Through belief in Christ you will avoid the misconception that js and his good 'ol boy priest buddies can get you into heaven. joseph's ladder is not a ladder at all. It is a chute, leading straight down into the devil's hell. There is no way to return even to this earth, or even to a lower earth than you have been led to believe you now inhabit.
All men die. Then comes the judgement.
At the judgement the books will be opened and whosoever's name is not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life will end their existance screaming as they plummet down that chute. There is no stop nor reverse switch. I can hear those who are and have been the proudest of their presence in the priesthood screaming in agony, cursing their fathers, mothers, and especially js because of his great self gratifying lie, Mormanism.
Unlike D&C 132, the Bible never changes. It's been tested time after timb and found to say exactly the same thing. Jesus, gave IT ALL (HIMSELF) as payment in full for the sins of mankind from the beginning until now and even into timeless eternity. What did js, your prophet, your priesthood, your diciples, your father, brother, husband or uncle ever sacriffice, even unto death, even death on the cross to assure your eternal life. Jesus gave, I repeat GAVE, himself to be a sacrifice for you. Can you say the same about your bros. and sisters? Would they sacriffice themselves for you?
Another wise man once said "A man never describes his own character so clearly as when he describes another."
3:35 PM, if you are trying to convince us Mormons of the error of our ways, keep in mind what Henry David Thoreau once said; "If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. But do not care to convince him. Men will believe what they see. Let them see."
My concern is not about you men. It is the women and children whom I fear are in jepordy. They are nothing but chattel bought and sold upon your trading floor. It must be most difficult to keep sweet while being subjected to such cruelty.
My prayer is that somehow one of the women, who has access to a computer has an opportunity to turn to this blog just to see what is being said by both FLDS and by Christian America.
I am a sinner. I have been saved. I know that my salvation is sure, permenant, everlasting. I have never been short changed by God the Father, God-Jesus the son, God-the Holy Spirit. I-AM bearing all three distinct purposes, all of which are constantly being fulfilled. God, slumbers not nor sleeps. He knows the number of hairs on your head and to the exact nano-second the time of your death and where your final destinations lie. He is JUSTICE. At creation he understand that man would fall. He allowed mankind to procreate thus allowing for continuance of the race. Man fell so that God, being Justice could through the death on the cross by Jesus pay the purchase price, to himself as payment, in full, for mankind. Now the choice becomes the individual human's decision. The price is paid. Will you accept HIS gift of salvation?
All the chatter about the world warming amounts to nothing. Does man really think that he has the knowledge and capability of reversing weather cycles. Rain-drought, sun-snow, hot-cold etc.etc.etc will continue until God determines 'time's up'
give me a break.....Go to your nearest brothel or stand out in the RED light district and preach that for as long as you like. Maybe go into hollywood ....see who the SLAVES the shackled the CHATTLE are! There you will see who is being bought and sold upon the trading floor! ARE YOU A BUYER???
I love these born again Christians. They (some not all) live any DAMNED way they want. Sleep with as many partners as they can, do as much drugs as they can, do all sort of abominations as they can but all the while they are saved because they said they were. To prove this, I'd ask you self righteous born again one question; How many parnters have you been with in you life? And how many of those are you still in a committed loving relationship with? 2 and 2 is my answer. What is yours?
I would propose that God (not Jesus, does that blow your mind or what)has his agency, that his spirit has it's agency, that Jesus has his agency and that they don't have to hang out with people that are not like them. While there are those that are truely committed to following after Jesus, the proof is in the pudding. You will do the works of Jesus. You will live his teachings. You will be of a like nature as him. This life isn't the "Wizard of Oz" and you aren't Dorothy. You don't get to click your heals and say, "there is no place like home" three times. "I'm saved" three times will not save you. When you die, you will take with you, your character and nature. So change your character and nature to be like Jesus, who shows us how to be like our Father.
Our little city and our simple people in CC are coming up against some harsh realities, it isn't the 1950's anymore. Our women are far more independant, so get with the program. Be a fountain of Love to your women and family and live your life blameless before God.
9:59 Go tell your progressive fairytale to those who have escaped the tyrany of polygamism, the priesthood and the constant judgement calls coming from everyone in their small environment. Bet you get called a liar.
We "born again" Christians did not coin the phrase nor make of it a by-word. John Chapt. 3 Jesus explains the new birth to Nicodemus. We are born in the flesh, as human beings at the end of our mother's pregnacy. This birth, physical birth comes not only with the expultion of the infant child from the mother's body butis accompanied by much body fluid. This is simply the birth of water. Natural birth in other words. Born of the flesh.
On the other hand, Jesus referred to birth of the spirit. It makes sense that in order to experience a spiritual birth you must have first experienced a physical birth.
Jesus said, "that which is born of flesh is flesh. That which is born of the spirit is spirit."
When asked about the 'spiritual birth' Jesus ask him if could see the wind, to tell where it came from or where it went. a spiritual birth is not one that takes place in a physical place but occurs in that hidden part of man, his soul.
New Birth simply explains that you can not physically observe that which is spiritual as it occurs. You however can see it's production by a change in lifestyle, prioities, loss of selfishness, love, not because you need some phjysical attention (eros) but because you sense that another individual is hurting and you attempt to find out how to relieve their pain and help them find comfort.
There is nothing judgemental in this. It simply states that it is ultimately you who makes the decision. The decision comes down to do I choose to beleve and serve Christ or remain in the flesh.
I think we can come to agreement on turning to Christ. However, (and i think we agree) saying it won't save you, the change that you make in your "soul" to live your life according the teachings of the Savior will. I think this is as close to agreement that we can make on the subject. Your religion says a spiritual rebirth, which is when you accept the Savior into you heart (and live according to his teachings would be the manifestation of that)and our religion (fundamental mormonism) we strive for the same.
If indeed you seek salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ and demonstrate that salvation that has allready taken place within your soul by acts of goodness, selflessness, charity, good council to your children et.al (infinity) With that you and I will agree.
my discomfort with institutionalized religion stems from the fact that when you subject yourself to said institution, you subject yourself to ownership by the leaders of that institution, who in all probability wont have your best interest at heart. I feel Ive learned this through being both "Morman fundamentalist" and "born again Christian" uncaduff
Your discomfort with institutionlized religion is the fact that you never had a testimony given of God for your benefit!! You lived on someone else's coat tails all the while thinking you were doing just right. So when just the right thing came along for you to question if what you believed was right or not, your sandy foundation gave way right underneath you. So, then you went and found a supposed religion that could make you feel good in the things you wanted to do and feel, and make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside saying Oh goodie, I'm not damned after all. Only problem is after all is said and done, you find out that he who stands for nothing falls for anything.
Hanging on someone elses coattail..."God and the Prophet always and only do right"
Having a testimony...Lying to ones self until their innards start churning at the conflict. Either that or a case of mastitis if you're a woman. I think I'll leave this testimony thing alone.
My discomfort with institutionalized religion stems from the fact that when you subject yourself to said institution, you subject yourself to ownership by the leaders of that institution, who in all probability wont have your best interest at heart.
That is precisely the reason why I have not attended any church whatsoever and blissfully plan on keeping it that way! And I can still raise good law (yes, man's laws) abiding children who respect their fellow human beings and do good.
I attend a church (that is the membership) not the facilities, make up a fellowship of loving, caring, praying, helping neighbors and friends all of all whom think of the church as a meeting of the group for the purpose of worsip of The Living God. We make an effort to learn from God's word. We study the Bible, because that is the only book we hold as Divinely Inspired and the Word of intruction for life given to man by his Creator as a manuel of instruction.
Our facilities, buildings etc. are not ownned by a greater power such as a parrish or an assembly of appointed individuals who have met certain requirements, kissed the hands, or various other parts of the anatonmy of their thought of superiors in order to gain favor.
Our congregation, that fellowship of believers hold title to the facility and are incorporated uncer the laws of the state. We elect trustees for a period of three years. Our pastors are called to pastor our congregation following the appointment of a search committee, elected by the congregation then brought before the congregation to be called or rejected at the will of the congregation. We vote by secret balot so that no one can be coerced to vote one way or another.
We practice democracy as perhaps no other group of people in America. No one, not pastor, deacon or elder can, without the vote of the church to underwrite and support whatsoever is proposed as a project of special interest.
Each and every member has the right to voice their concern and to support or oppose any recommendation by any committee, the deacons, the pastor or anything.
We humans hold title to the physical plant. God holds title to his own, those who are among the saved by the blood of the Lamb of God. Christ's blood is the receipt of payment for the lost souls of man. He gave his life in payment for ours and we are His alone.
Do you see that you may have mis-judged the fact that all churches are under someone's control? If we, as a congregation failed in our purpose of leading the lost to Christ, we as a congregation will begin to die. Growth will stop, the message will be diminished and the people will have become so carnal that they will have lost interest in God's work. Only a revival of the congregation, becoming once more ignited with the fire of God's love for us will allow us to regain that spark of love for which we seek to share with others.
Yes, perhaps I did misjudge that all organized religion is under someone's control.
About two years ago I came very close to becoming a born again Christian myself. One of my best friends is one and she invited me to go to her church.
I agree with her, and with you, on all the basic principles and the concept behind them (when I am not doubting the existence of God altogether.) But then I started to realize everything wasn't as simple as she made it sound. Her pastor told the congregation "The DaVinci Code" was the spirit anti-Christ, and she refused to let her children watch the "Harry Potter" movies because they contained witch-craft. Subtle little things like that that to me smacked all too familiarly of religious control.
I think it is entirely possible for certain sects of any number of various churches and organized religion to be as pure and as beautiful as you described. But, all such organizations are comprised of humans, and humans are not perfect. Of course you can argue with God's help they may become better and closer to obtaining a degree of perfection and salvation, and I will agree with you.
But I do not think it is necessary to align one's self with any organized religion in order to obtain salvation.
What is it that we as a race, as a species find so lacking in ourselves that we feel compelled and needful of some other imagined entity in order to draw on the strength and goodness that already exists within us? Why can't we just be good and strong by ourselves? I, for one say we can if we could find the courage to rid ourselves of our need for co-dependency.
Your church is definitely different than the Mormon church and very much different than the FLDS. In the Mormon Church, many things are done by common consent while other items are “revealed” and therefore the people have no say because it is “from the Lord.” In the FLDS, there is no such thing as “common consent” because the “one man” is “divinely inspired” in all things, both of a spiritual nature and physical (or temporal) nature. Whatever he says is how it is because he “speaks for the Lord” and he has “the right to rule.”
I most certainly agree, in any organization, the people need a voice. I once heard that "where there is no involvement, there is no commitment." I believe that is true. I also believe that as you take away the involvement of the people the need for dictating every action and controlling all aspects of their lives increases. That is the reason there has to be so much positional authority and control used in many organizations (Mormonism and the FLDS do not have a monopoly on this).
So now you may be wondering why there seems to be such a level of commitment and loyalty to the “prophet.” It is really quite simple. Those who follow have convinced themselves that they will only be saved by 100% obedience to that man and his teachings. That gives this “one man” absolute authority and control, which was given him by the people. If he is an honorable man, he will use this position to lead many people unto proper living. If a dishonorable man is in that position....well we have seen what is happening.
Something I have wondered though is this: If two men went through life and they were both honest, loving, caring individuals. They always dealt justly with their fellow man, never stole, never took advantage of another and sought to help others whenever and however they could. In all they did they lived by the Golden Rule and the Law of the Harvest.
Now one man lived this way because he felt that is how we should all treat each other. He also realized that we have the ability to choose our actions, but not the ability to choose the consequence of that action. He had come to a knowledge that all things are governed by natural and unchanging laws and principles which always dictated the outcome of an action.
The other man lived as he did because his religion required it. He had also been ordained to a special place in that religion, and was given many promises if he remained faithful. The second man was also living this way out of fear of the consequences (hellfire and damnation). He also believed that all the promises of salvation given him by his religion would be taken away if he did not remain faithful to that religion.
So, both men went through life treating their fellow man the same, but for different reasons. Which one will the Lord be more pleased with? And if he is more pleased with one, how come? Will one have a greater glory in Heaven? If so, why? Would it make a difference if the first man had been exposed to the second mans religion? What if at one point he had been a part of it, would that change anything?
bbgae, perhaps I did misjudge that all organized religion is under someone's control.
comment if you place yourself under the control of any organization, you are controlled by those persons who control that organization. will they have your best interest at heart?
-think it is entirely possible for certain sects of any number of various churches and organized religions to be as pure and as beautiful as you described. But, all such organizations are comprised of humans, and humans are not perfect
comment they will be as" pure and beautiful" as the imperfect humans who construct and maintain them.
Why can't we just be good and strong by ourselves? I, for one say we can if we could find the courage to rid ourselves of our need for co-dependency.
comment. "good and strong by our selves" is a brief , but incomplete, description of salvation. what is left out is; we are incomplete without our personal connection with our creator. as for "co-dependency" we will always depend on each other, there is no getting around it. but after our parents have taught us to pray, if we seek inspiration from god through an organization or another man, what we receive will at best, be no better than the medium through which it came. I personally reserve the right to judge for myself, the merits of said medium.
shinto, that term has been used quite loosely over time so I don,t know exactly what you mean by it. what I don,t believe in is the Idea that God puts a man on earth to rule in his stead. I do believe that individuals receive inspiration for there own lives, but if someone starts to tell me what "the Lord wants me to do" at best they are are wasting there time. uncaduff
The bible would read alot differently if the prophets would have set up a situation like that. Upside is they wouldn't have been slain but rather voted out because the message they delivered. Downside is they would get voted out and the people wouldn't hear God's unpopular calls for repentance.
I guess I'm too indoctrinated to see outside my box, but if the pastor/minister/hired hand is just preaching to keep his job that comes up for renewel every 3 years then wouldn't he just tell you all how wonderful you are?
Ignorant in CC
Here is the part where you'll tell me how backward my religion is (trust me I've heard it), but if you will humor me and try to answer the question then I think you might have just enlightened a poor dum, unlearned, hick from the sticks CC boy.
good points uncaduff. What I meant was; do you think there are still people on this eath that God communicates with like the bible says he used to? with visions and visitation and all that.
and, just to be honest; I personally do not take the bible as seriously as most people. I think that it's a very old book and many things have probably been lost in translation. :P (no serious bible-bashing intended.)
and, just to be honest; I personally do not take the bible as seriously as most people. I think that it's a very old book and many things have probably been lost in translation. :P (no serious bible-bashing intended.)
shinto, Im gonna stick my neck out, and ask a simple question. some of us question the acreasy of the translation of the bible. my question is; what justifies us in beleiving that the men who "sat in the seat of the preisthood", in those days were any more infallable than men are in our own day? in other words; was the original accurate in the first place? I awate a storm of rightious indignation. -
It depends on the spirit that is in you. If it is consistently pure, then there is clarity and belief and surety of every word, and then I will add what Joseph added: "As far as it is translated correctly". This is why he had to correct some of their misinterpretations of old. And even that is very questionable if there is no purity of spirit within you, pure living according to the strict united effort and order of a saint.
wow! Here I am a poor abused brainwashed plural WIFE and I never knew it! I just thought I was "protected". I thought I never got alot of time with my husband was because he works his butt off trying to support his family. (I didn't know he was so selfish.) All this time he could have been mine and only mine but he's so selfish he takes care of everyone he loves! Man! That self centered Man!!!
Perhaps. Even the ancient Jews had to be spanked quite often. But you're only talking about five books. God's library is endless, and is revealed in every age of the world in its pure form, through the purest medium. Uncle Roy showed me his library, as he did for many. I was awe-struck.
This is kind of off the subject but does anyone know what is going on in the South Dakota compound? I have good reason to believe a relative is living there but I never hear anything about it.
Relative? That's, ummm, how shall we say...relative: "Who is my neighbor, my brother, my sister"? The Lords asks a very good question here, and HE also gives the answer.
Street I'd rather not hear your precious comments, but if you insist on it here goes. Where do Warren's people get their food, cloth to make clothes, building materials for houses and etc...???? Why, from that wicked world they despise so much and think they are above. Where is the self dependence that Brigham Young AND U. Roy tried to get the people to accept???????
That is such a good point. My heart breaks to see such blind ignorance. If God condoned more than one wife, why didn't he give Adam many? Just because men in the Bible had many wives, doesn't mean that was Gods plan. It might look like harmony on the outside, but it is heart breaking to see ones husband walk into anothers bedroom for the night. You women claim to love your children. I'm sure you do. To a degree. What safty do these girls feel when their mother and father force them to marry who they are not in love with? And of all men, someone who is so much older with other wives. I mother should be like a lion or a bear. They will fight and even give their life for their children. I am so glad that Warren Jeffs is in prison. But it is not fair that the men that married these girls and the fathers and mothers that handed these girls over are not in jail. This is not fair.
You freaks make me laugh, you idolize a 19th century bearded pedophile...Joseph Smith was a con man of the highest order, he stole the teachings of the Blue Light of the Masonic Brotherhood to further warp the minds of the people who followed him [Your blasphemous temple ordinances ARE the ordinances of the brotherhood] He has tried repeatedly before to recruit people to other religions that he claimed to be true, he is nothing more than a false prophet, he deserved his fate, though personally I would have loved to have seen him castrated with a hot iron first.
Jeffs is even worse, he has used his power to amass wealth for himself and destroy the lives of others so completely, he is a sanctioning rapist, NO ONE should be forced into a marriage, let a lone a sexual relationship not of their own choosing. You destroy the lives of these women, both young and old because you cannot keep it in your pants. Yours is a religion based upon lies and falsehoods...What next, raping babies, oh wait there are reports of that too...
You assault those who comment against you, but why is it that these stories KEEP coming out, hm? I guess all those people keep telling lies...Why did Warren run if he did nothing wrong, why live in such a closed society, why make mens families vanish and kick out younger men? Lies lies lies, all you have is your lies.
Each and every one of you bastards is going to hell, and it will be a pleasure to see your seed annihalated from this planet, your end is coming, the governments will get you all eventually, if you think you are going to be safe in Utah for much longer you are wrong...We will pressure then governnment, especially candidate Mitt Romney, we will fet you jailed for what you have done and your women freed into the lives that they deserve...
Your end is near, and the fires will take you all in the end...
Street I'd rather not hear your precious comments, but if you insist on it here goes. Where do Warren's people get their food, cloth to make clothes, building materials for houses and etc...???? Why, from that wicked world they despise so much and think they are above. Where is the self dependence that Brigham Young AND U. Roy tried to get the people to accept??????? 12/28/2007 10:16 PM __________________________________
MY REPLY:
RESOURCES:
So, the source of all resources. God is the source, not any man nor city nor set of men. Why do you insist on idolatry, looking to men as the source of anything? It just stunts your growth, and makes you…well…”Just a Small One”. So well put, widdo pud. God is even the source of that, and if the FLDS prove prophetable to the world like you say, producing great profits in their behalf, it just shows that they can come out of the world and still live in it, being a light on a hill that all the world must see. Yet, what do you know. They even grow their own food, and make cloth, and building materials. But in the end, we shall eat manna (Rev.2:17), and have light for a covering (Ps.104:2), and our building will be buildings made without hands (Mk.14:58).
My “precious comments”? Thank you for the commentpliment.
The source of all resources. God is the source, not any man nor city nor set of men. Why do you insist on idolatry, looking to men as the source of anything? It just stunts your growth, and makes you…well…”Just a Small One”. So well put, widdo pud. God is even the source of that, and if the FLDS prove prophetable to the world like you say, producing great profits in their behalf, it just shows that they can come out of the world and still live in it, being a light on a hill that all the world must see. Yet, what do you know. They even grow their own food, and make cloth, and building materials. But in the end, we shall eat manna (Rev.2:17), and have light for a covering (Ps.104:2), and our building will be buildings made without hands (Mk.14:58).
My “precious comments”? Thank you for the commentpliment.
FLDS Polygamy: God’s Plan (Sec.1) Texas Blog-Building Vanished Thread 1/02/2008 9:49 AM and 1/02/2008 1:46 PM
Just the alarmism of violent and immoral people. Your posts show how so little you know. You blaspheme Joseph Smith as bearded. Guess what? No beard. He never did have one. Okay, you say that if God condoned more than one wife, why didn’t He give Adam many? The Bible is NOT all of history on earth. It’s a goodun, but there is more. Apocryphal works speak of Eve, Lilleth, Sarah, and an entire colony of polygamists.
The very Hebrew word for Adam is Adam and Ababuah, meaning “eruption, mankind, dismayed but innocent”, to populate the earth. And what is also very telling is the Hebrew for Eden and for Eve: Eden is Adamdam: A or Alpha (the Hebrew letter Aleph) is God (“I am Alpha”), “dam is damsel, plus dam or other damsels” (Adamdam: polygamy). It means “Egypt: Land of the Nile, river, flood of immortality”, vs a-nihil-ate. A flood of seed must include many women. Immortality is what Eden was before the Fall. Eve in Hebrew is Zohar, which means “brilliance”, as light and life: Women radiating everywhere across the earth and across the sky. Also, Chavvah: “Life giver”, which FLDS women are, with an abundance of life, vs your serial killings of innocent children, the takers of the most innocent, over a million babies slain every year. So who is innocent?
Now we all know deep down that there is only one God or Father of us all, and millions of mothers. Yes, only one Father and millions of mothers. Is that not polygamy? As for the age difference, Mary was called a “virgin” (Mt.1:23, Lk.1:27). The Hebrew for virgin is “Elem”, as in Elementary. The oldest elementary age of our day is 12, the 6th grade, and the Lord commands the first fruit when it is the purest (Ex.22:29), at puberty, “yielding her fruit every month” (Rev.22:2). “Ye shall know them by their fruits” (Mt.7:16). If it’s not the first or best fruits, it’s not known as notorious. There you go, the Word of the Lord, if you love the Lord. So she was 12, yet the Father is many many years older, is He not. Shouldn’t we follow the Way of the Father and the Son? It is obviously God’s Plan.
Finally, it is rape to breed them flesh to flesh, for that is the animal nature in man, not human nor divine. This is why the Immaculate Conceptions of the FLDS is so crucial, and what I was taught all my life by the FLDS Prophet. “Thou shalt conceive…How shall this be, seeing I know not a man…The power of the highest shall overshadow thee…”. It is never flesh to flesh, but a sowing to the spirit (Gal.6:8). “Neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die” (Gen.3:3), the tree or genealogical tree in the midst of the garden, midway between the crown of the head and the souls of the feet.
So if your “heart breaks” as you say, to see these FLDS men dealing with virgins with such perfection, that makes you the criminals and freaks, the sex-offenders among us, con-men and women of the lowest order, and the killers of innocent children. Then, let your filthy hearts break, for God Himself says that such hearts must fail (Gen.42:28, Ps.40:12, D&C 45:26, 88:91), for “Satan stirs up your hearts to anger and finally death”. And Paul, filled with the Holy Ghost, said: “O full of all subtlety and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? Now behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee.” (Acts 13:9).
If Joseph found some truth in the Masonic brotherhood, it further proves his intellect, for “We accept all truth from whatever source it may come.” Brotherhood is good, and God is the source, not man. You only accuse righteous men of “stealing” teachings because you lack learning yourself, and steal away the lives and the hopes of others as pro-choice and as law against the bearing of children, as Satan does, your mind being warped and “seared with a hot iron” (I Tim.4:2). So you emulate the Jews by calling the His teachings “blasphemous” (Luke 22:65). For you to wish castration just proves your violence, your criminal and sexual perversion for all to see. So the pit and the evil that you wish on others, you must suffer yourself, says the Lord, “to the uttermost farthing” (Ezek.31, Prov.26:27, Mt.5:26, Rev.9:1).
The world has been fed the lie that by encouraging faith in God’s placement and fidelity in marriage, as shown throughout the scriptures that Warren Jeffs has somehow raped, you have thus promoted the very idea that God’s Will and marriage fidelity is actually rape. Here are the scriptures that prove the eternal truth of placement marriage: Gen.2:22 (God brought the woman to the man), Gen.16:9, 21:13 (God Himself commanding plural wives, but for who? For the faithful and “Father of the Faithful”. Then, for his son Isaac, again by placement marriage, Abraham sent his servant to “take a wife unto my servant Isaac” (Gen.24:4).
This pattern is throughout the prophets, from Genesis to Revelation, even to “Jesus Christ, the bridegroom” of Cana (John 2:9), after “Jesus was called to the marriage” (placement: John 2:2). After that, he entered into polygamy, as we see him directing the domestic affairs of multiple women, such as Mary and Martha (Luke 10:41). That is only the proper place of a husband, says the Lord Himself: “He shall rule over thee”, says the Lord (Gen.3:16).
This is not because he “couldn’t keep it in his pants”, as you blaspheme, but precisely because he could, being a virtuous man, as are his disciples also, to this day. I personally witnessed Warren’s denial of women time and time again in our growing up together. It is the divine nature within him, blaspheme as you will. You speak of “raping babies” while the Prophet and his trustees demand all members continually to “LEAVE THOSE WOMEN ALONE, and while you support the law in slaying the babies by the millions. You damned hypocrite, as Christ often says.
You speak of assault. Who has assaulted who (Mt.10:34). Yes, your assaults are legion and glaring! Then you reveal the basis of your assertions: “Because these stories keep coming out”. There you go! Because of stories, the sexual excitement of a thousand tongues, you will establish a verdict, just as the majority did in Jerusalem at the Crucifixion. Also you ask: “Why did Warren run? Why live in such a closed society”? Why did Christ run, all the Way to Egypt, and even on his returning he ran again from Jerusalem to Galilee. He was guilty, is that it? He maintained a closed society, until the “enemy broke in” (Mt.13:25). “Come out of the world, my people, and be not partakers of her sins” (Rev.18:4). Through and through, you reject Jesus Christ, and assume the corruption that boils within yourself. So out of your own mouth your guilt is established, and as you say: “Lies, lies, lies”. Then you advocate genocide, saying “It will be a pleasure to see your seed annihilated from this planet”. Your guilts are most glaring, even capital crimes against humanity itself, and what does the Lord say?
“And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldst give reward unto Thy servants the prophets and unto the saints, and them that fear Thy name small and great, and shouldst destroy them which destroy the earth” (Rev.11:18).
"Anonymous said... Someone is missing a cobble or two on a deadend street"
Of course they are, they spout crap that no one else understands or cares to understand, they start screaming about Abortion [I never mentioned that once] so that they can continue to expound on their views.
And of course its all the men that we hear from, because they feel that what they are doing is just and right...The more that we drag them out into the open the more they will be shown for what they are...
A bunch of racist, child molesters and rapists...Zion? I don't think so...
Not all are like that 6:54, hence the revelation of pulling the weeds from the wheat as some form of saying. We all make mistakes and let the one without sin cast the first stone. I'm not backing up the child molesters or rapists they will all be judged accordingly as will the rest of us. Just want to say just cuz one person or two are weeds doesent make the rest of the field worthless.
And the owner of this blog refused to post the last statement I made in response to someone who uses ONLY the arguments that I got an issue about a "beard" wrong.
They don't want to post my response to that hate, I would like to see the blog owner post it, I should have the right to defend myself.
We as Americans have freedom of speech and freedom of religion, or we are supposed to have freedom of religion! Let them live theirs and you live yours! Just because you do not know every thing they do, and you don't understand what you do know, dose not make them bad people.
89 comments:
By commercial land do you mean the zoning status only or was it on property outside the UEP? Have we come full circle to disappearing buildings again?
Both Colorado City and Hildale City have land zoned as industrial/commercial. This land is not UEP, but owned by the city and leased to the entity that uses it.
The building that was removed was on this leased land that is not part of the UEP.
Correction, rumor;
it took them two days to take the sheeting of and dismantle the steel. That is still very fast.
It looks like the buildings are "qualifing" a little faster than the people to go to "zion." :)
IITMOC
The last time I lived in town the buildings had just started to disappear. It was winter then, too.
I was there at that last meeting when Warren told the people they were idol worshipers for erecting that statue in honor of their faithful ancestors who survived the 1953 raid, and as a result the Lord was withholding His blessing from the people and there would no longer be church held on Sunday or baptisms or marriages. (funny how some people still got married.) Everything that was happening was so secret. There was so much tension. Good men started loosing their families left and right for no reason at all. Warren had everyone playing 'musical houses' and buildings started to disappear into thin air and NO ONE knew (or would say) where they went or why. I even hear rumors that the apostates (recent ones) had taken them - and I knew that was a complete lie. I read in the news paper about the land that had been purchased in Texas. I didn't believe it at first- not until I saw pictures of the temple as it was being constructed. And I felt SO BETRAYED.
Suddenly I could see the real reasons behind what was happening. Warren didn't want to people communicating with one another. But this was a close knit community and EVERYONE knew when some family or another didn't make it to church on Sunday. How could entire families simply disappear without the rest of the town knowing? The best way to keep the people from noticing was for Warren to stop mass meetings. He wanted to keep the knowledge of Texas away from the ones he didn't like and didn't want with him. He was just going to leave them to their fate. Then "one will be taken and the other left" became abundantly clear to me and it didn't seem like some beautiful passage of scripture any longer- it was cruel.
HOW could Warren do that to these people who love and live and breathe and work and sacrifice FOR HIM???!!!
And I felt SO BETRAYED.
________________________________
bbgae,the "beautiful passage of scripture" that we all ignored, was,"trust not in Man, but trust in God" To ignore this, is to leave yourself wide open to betrayal.
uncaduff
bbgae,
Do you feel that Warren was waiting for an excuse and used the monument (and slide show) as the excuse. If that had not happened, do you feel some other event would have been his scapegoat?
1:42-
That is something I have not considered before. I guess my answer is yes and no. We all knew statues were considered idols. I guess the thought at the time was it would be ok because it was meant as a symbol of honor and respect for the faithful that had gone on before us and to remind us to strive to be as faithful as they. It was not meant to be anything but good- but given Warren's extreme nature, we all should have known better. I guess I can't blame Warren for that.
However, I do think Warren would have found some other way to stop meetings if these events had not occurred.
And, no- I didn't actually go to the ceremony or even see the statue or the slide show. I just heard about them.
you know I really was GLAD to see that ugly structure gone..now we have a clear view of the dairy wo hooo
Any news on Warren's prison sentence?
Judge should rule today!
http://www.sltrib.com/news/ci_7512822
2 consecutive 5 years to life...
I just happened, check www.thespectrum.com or www.sltrib.com and they will have it on their front page.
Mr. Shurtleff is also trying to get Warren to pay $100,000 for the extra security at the trial. It seems funny to me that they would want extra security to keep his fanatic cult from rescueing him and then billing him for, but maybe i'm just extra ignorant today.
PB
Wow, Warren is going to learn that its better to give that to receive. Especially when he is the receiver and Bubba is the giver. Hope he rooms with a black person. That would really be justice for such a racist bigot like Warren.
Whether justice was served remains to be seen as related to Warren Jeffs having received the two back-to-back sentences of 5 to life.
Will his sepparation, (long term) from his faithful slaves alter their lifestyles? Laws are still on the books that enable similar justice to me meaded out to anyone who takes his place and emulates his behavior.
What does FLDS have to fear? I heard a recent story concerning a large group of FLDS women going into a grocery store in a nearby city. They were described as an awe stricken group who appeared to have never seen so much. ONe of the younger women saw fresh grapes on display, picked up a large cluster and took it to what appeared to be the eldest of the women for approval. Hanging her head she returned the grapes she returned to the group.
Just think, the innocence of that younng woman, in all probability having never seen such bounty and who in all probability innocently had a sudden desire to taste fresh grapes. Perhaps she was pregnant and was having an urge for fresh fruit, who knows.
Carolyn Jessop's recent book gives insight to a virtual prison life led by the women and children within the walls of an FLDS community.
Oh Lord, hear the prayer of those innocents who are being held captive by tyrants governing a cult witout mercy. Give them faith and hope for deliverence.
I Jesus Name I pray.
Sounds sensational 3:53 poster those poor poor ladies have never seen grapes before. c'mon really.
3:53- You seem like someone with good intentions. However-
In all probability, your large group of women could have been just one family doing their regular grocery shopping.
In all probability, the younger woman who brought the grapes to the older woman for approval could have been HER DAUGHTER.
In all probability she MOST ASSUREDLY had seen grapes before and liked them and that was why she was asking her mother for them.
Not all FLDS families function the same. Each one is different because it is comprised of different people and in every family, the father/ husband is the boss. Different men run things differently to the same purposes. Not all FLDS families are like Caroline Jessop's ex-family.
Don't stereotype us please.
STEROTYPE?
Interview after interview, book after book, testimony after testimony the absolute dominance of the male priest/rapist/child molester/sadist/co-conspiritor/sodomite/abser of women and children/selfish/proud/fearful underlings who cow-tow to an unbelievable set of socitial rules at the expense of their wives and children. Who have created of themselves, in their own eyes, a god like person who is to reign his own universe. Who is without love or mercy. Who takes the meger earnings of members of his family to help pay his way into godship. Foolishness, an absolute lie who not only abuses his family but continues to play a game, and that's all it is.
In this game HE, reincarnate Satan whose eternal desire is to replace God. Who has been led by charltans (plural) into a destructive lifestyle that has no love only self worship.
Satan wanted to be God, that is the reason he was cast from heaven along with his angels.
Question? Do you suppose that he and his demonic hosts not only led eastern peoples in casting idols for worship but, are in the process of making idols of themselves and forcing their society to worship them? Evidence would seem to support this hypothesis.
The devil, like the leopard cannot change his spots. SELF is his object of worship.
anon 4:54,
If it is written in a book, shown on national TV, or printed in the paper it must be the truth. Is that what I'm to understand from your post?
I have read many of the news stories and read some of the books, including Carolyn's, and I must say there are two sides to every story.... and then there is the truth.
I have not seen all that has happened out here, nor do I want to, but be very careful making a blanket statement about a people you apparently do not know. The majority of the people are hard working, industrious, and loving parents. I think their biggest fault may be that they are too TRUSTING, thus opening the door to predators and power abusers. It is the ones who want to control those under their care and those around them, those who aspire to positions of authority, that cause problems and give this people a bad name.
Last I checked, women in the world who divorced or left a controlling husband, boss, organization, etc didn't have a lot of good things to say about that person or group. Does not mean that those who were friends, coworkers, etc of the person or organization were also controlling and/or abusive.
Do I think that the FLDS is a perfect people? Far from it. I certainly don’t consider myself a perfect person. Do you consider yourself perfect enough to judge a complete people?
Rant over....
IITMOC
As an "outsider" in a nearby town, may I offer a few observations:
It is not the fresh foods that catch the eye of the Shrort-Crickers in our big stores. They already have the best produce and dairy products available anywhere. That would include ice cream and "squeaky cheese" as well.
They do stand with their jaws dropped at the technology available in Wal-Mart and Sam's Club. However, the lack of plasma TV's and HDTV and all that goes with it is a good thing.
The bad part is where they go nuts over greasy, sugary, "American" foods at our fast food establishments.
If you were to take away the polygamy and control factors, Colorado City would be a wonderful kind of a place to raise a family.
Oh My. I just realized that Monogamy is the answer to all our problems. I have been on this planet for sometime and it just dawned on me that the reason that there is so much peace and harmony on this planet is because of Monogamy. God Bless all the Monogamist and please tell all the polygamist that every problem stems from their corrupt Life styles. All the Maham, murder,sickness,pestilance,adultery,fornication,you name and link it to their society is really what it is all about. Thanks for all the examples of righteousness and purity. It also dawned on me that since we have Warren Jeffs in jail that that state of utah as one a battle but not the war. God Bless Warren S Jeffs.
Nobody 'wins' when a criminal is found in our own society. Not the state, not the individual. They drag us all down together.
Oh My. I just realized that Monogamy is the answer to all our.......God Bless Warren S Jeffs.
_____________________________________
what part of "Polygamy is not the issue here" don't you understand?
and Warren has declared a greater condemnation on his own self than even the state of Utah, ie, " the most wicked man on earth since Adam"
unless he was lying then too , he's going to need blessed.
uncaduff
Well either way; Warren lied about being a prophet or he lied about not being a prophet. Now you would think those that followed him need to sort this out to find what or who they can believe in.
Yesterday he brushed his teeth, today he is toothless.
(A small proverb that perfectly explains Mr. Jeffs current situation!)
Yesterday he scratched his... oh never mind.
Polygamy roots......
Genesis
4:15 And Jehovah said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And Jehovah appointed a sign for Cain, lest any finding him should smite him.
4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of Jehovah, and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.
4:17 And Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch: and he builded a city, and called the name of the city, after the name of his son, Enoch.
4:18 And unto Enoch was born Irad: and Irad begat Mehujael: and Mehujael begat Methushael; and Methushael begat Lamech.
4:19 And Lamech took unto him two wives: the name of the one was Adah, and the name of the other Zillah.
4:20 And Adah bare Jabal: he was the father of such as dwell in tents and have cattle.
4:21 And his brother’s name was Jubal: he was the father of all such as handle the harp and pipe.
4:22 And Zillah, she also bare Tubal-cain, the forger of every cutting instrument of brass and iron: and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah.
4:23 And Lamech said unto his wives: Adah and Zillah, hear my voice; Ye wives of Lamech, hearken unto my speech: For I have slain a man for wounding me, And a young man for bruising me:
4:24 If Cain shall be avenged sevenfold, Truly Lamech seventy and sevenfold.
Monogamy....
Genesis 4:25 And Adam knew his wife again; and she bare a son, and called his name Seth. For, said she, God hath appointed me another seed instead of Abel; for Cain slew him.
4:26 And to Seth, to him also there was born a son; and he called his name Enosh.
Then began men to call upon the name of Jehovah.
5:1 This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
5:2 male and female created he them, and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
5:3 And Adam lived a hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:
5:4 and the days of Adam after he begat Seth were eight hundred years: and he begat sons and daughters.
5:5 And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died.
5:6 And Seth lived a hundred and five years, and begat Enosh:
5:7 and Seth lived after he begat Enosh eight hundred and seven years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:8 and all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died.
5:9 And Enosh lived ninety years, and begat Kenan.
5:10 and Enosh lived after he begat Kenan eight hundred and fifteen years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:11 and all the days of Enosh were nine hundred and five years: and he died.
5:12 And Kenan lived seventy years, and begat Mahalalel:
5:13 and Kenan lived after he begat Mahalalel eight hundred and forty years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:14 and all the days of Kenan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died.
5:15 And Mahalalel lived sixty and five years, and begat Jared:
5:16 And Mahalalel lived after he begat Jared eight hundred and thirty years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:17 and all the days of Mahalalel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died.
5:18 And Jared lived a hundred sixty and two years, and begat Enoch:
5:19 and Jared lived after he begat Enoch eight hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:20 And all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.
5:21 And Enoch lived sixty and five years, and begat Methuselah:
5:22 and Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:23 and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years:
5:24 and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.
5:25 And Methuselah lived a hundred eighty and seven years, and begat Lamech:
5:26 and Methuselah lived after he begat Lamech seven hundred eighty and two years, and begat sons and daughters.
5:27 And all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died.
5:28 And Lamech lived a hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son:
5:29 and he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us in our work and in the toil of our hands, which cometh because of the ground which Jehovah hath cursed.
5:30 And Lamech lived after he begat Noah five hundred ninety and five years, and begat sons and daughters:
5:31 And all the days of Lamech were seven hundred seventy and seven years: and he died.
Truth
hahahaha good one TRUTH!!!! Atta BOY!!!
IIMOC
It is most strange that no member of the priesthood would ever admit to ANY of those acts of cruelty described in many revealing documentations, given first hand by those who experienced whatsoever. Never truth. DENY, DENY, DENY! You've got your children and women trapped, not for celestial, terrestral glory as determined by your idea of salvation, or as controled by yourselves, but your hate and need to dominate ensure their eternal damnation, as well as your own.
God made the rules. Joseph Smith was a pirate robber who visited the cat house too often, drank too much rot gut whiskey that in order to justify himself he had to INVENT A RELIGEON. While he was bed hopping, no doubt satisfying himself carnlly with some of your great-great ----- grandmothers, In order to keep himself out of trouble with his "flock" of sheeple he roped in a few other good old boys who liked to jump beds as much as he himself did. they then formed themselves into a group and called themselves Apostles, led by their infamous profit JS (js) (unworthy of capital letters)
We know these truths. There have been many writers both Mormon and non Mormon who have attested to smith's behavior as previously described.
So, you want us to choose your way? We don't know anything except what we read, see on T.V. or is reported by those whom have ESCAPED the tyrany of FLDS. They certainly didn't drive out of C.C. in a red Cadillac Escalante, with thousands of dollars in cash, scanners, gift cards, cell phones, laptop computers et. al. misc. wealth. If they were able to escape at all they were most blessed of a loving God. Why? Because they recognized the error of their former life and the enslavement from which they escaped. I wonder how many others have attempted to escape? How many have been blood atoned?
IIMOC, oh thou of smooth finger word sharing via internet. You are the one who can't face the truth. If you read Carolyn Jessup's book how did you personally fit into her debasement, repeated sexual abuse, by wj, by Merill, by Nancy Jessop and the other sister wives? You simply will not face the truth. You were born into your false assumption that upon your death you would climb Joseph's ladder (not Jacob's).
The only problem is that Joseph's ladder is an elevator headed straight down, it never varies, has no exits and stops only at the iron doors of that blast-furnace called hell. This esculator does not return from its destination. It does stop at the top to allow a few more Mormon souls to be lured or thrown in as fuel reserve. From what I read in your teachings the fuel supply is unlimited.
I see it now - - - - good ol'IIMOC fighting and screaming his head off cursing j.s. and also against all those who preceeded him and threw his soul in hell. Now go back and read the on again off again D&C 132;
1:37;
A scoffer seeks wisdom in vain, but knowledge is easy for a man of understanding.
proverbs 14:6
uncaduff.
A very wise person once said "We see the World and those in it not as they are, but as we ourselves are."
A good person is a good because of their actions, not their religion or religious calling, ethnicity, or location on this globe. Same goes for a bad person. They are bad because of their actions.
IITMOC
IITOMC, your a man of understanding.
if parts of ones religion encourages one to good actions,then those parts of ones religion are true. the rest is deception.
uncaduff
1:37
IITMOC wasn't defending the corrupt leadership; he was defending the innocent people who are deceived.
I totally agree with 6:36
Our actions, (as you say it "what we do"). Whee I disagree is that the Bible is crammed full of scripture related to God's Judgement. In mormon you hole each other accountable because you do not believe in the One True and Living. Hi is not Jesus' father figure except when in flesh and on earth for the sole purpose of our redemption through his shed blood.
Now, and since his assention to the throne of Gopd only accents the fact that although Jesus appeared in human form he declared as did Martha, Peter, the woman at the well and many other persons to whom he ministered while on earth.
God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one person. None is inferior to the other. Each person has had or has a task to perform related to man on earth. They have not failed in their self assigned tasks. Who is God's superior? He has non. He is complete. he is creator, sustainer, savior and communicator with man. If man's prayers are only shopping lists God frequently will not honor them. If man's prayer is for guidance, for purpose of worship and praise. Shopping should be done at Wal-Mart or your home town equivilent.
He who attempts to make fool of God only demonstrates his own future abvsolute separation from God, but all other persons on earth who believed and trusted in Jesus name.
8:34 AM
Could you write your thoughts in English? For the life of me I can't figure out what your last post was trying to say.
Polygamy makes you think BIGGER than yourself and helps keep you connected when you have 50+ brothers and sisters and un-numbered cousins.
It is a shame when SMALL minded people can't see it for what it is.
Polygamists are too SMALL minded to respect a scientist with only two children that is making it possible for the earth to sustain more people.
Edited version of 11/27/07 1:37
IIMOC
It is most strange that no known member of the priesthood would ever admit to ANY of those acts of cruelty described in many revealing documents, presented with the aid of first hand experience, published many times by the person who experienced that to which you would deny. To protect the priesthood tell any lie, never tell the truth about anything, unless you find it to your advantage to do so, DENY - DENY - DENY! You have your wives and children trapped in a cult that attempts and succeeds at stealing the very souls of those who believe the things told to them by a century and a half of false prophets. You know that there is no way that you or any of your priesthood brothers, uncles, prophets can usher anyone into an everlasting life. They never have paid the price. Their collateral is worthless. The foolsih invention of a multi-level future does not come from God's word but out of the mouth of a liar, scoundrel, thief etc. I mean js.
Incidently, God made the rules. He made them long ago. They are unchanging because they represent the loving, kind, and just living God, passed on by divine inspiration to the true writers of scripture which include Moses, Samuel, David, Solomon, Ezra, Ezekiel, Daniel, Jeremiah, Isaiah, Amos, Joel, Nahum, Hosea, Habakkuk, Zechariah, Johah, Malachi, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Paul, Titus, Peter, Jude.
All so called divinely inspired works have failed the test of each, when studied against other texts,mentioning similar situations or events or circumstances do not conflict each other.
Concerning the works of js and followers:
Just as four witnesses to an accident will report four different versions of what they witnessed, so are the ramblings of mormon, pearl, D&C etc. How can you know if some witnesses support similar points as seen by some of the witnesses, not seen by others. There is no agreement, even among two individuals regarding other points of view.
There are however, more than just a hand full of persons who were all there, all saw and all agreed as to what happened. Those indivuals were God's chosen instruments, who were inspired by God's one and only Holy Spirit to write what God told them to write.
With the passage of time scoffers and historians who were previously agnostic in their view of God now have come into belief of God's mercy to save a sinful dying world.
js, your great prophet was best known as a pirate, a robber, a scoundrel, a thief. In order to justify himself and his perfidity he had to invent a religion that was to him was self justifying. Because js said he had received a vision doesn't mean that anyone else received a like vision nor ever saw a stack of "tin" plates which he claimed were another testament of Jesus Christ. In the meantime js did not cease his visitation with scarlet women nor even the wives and daughters of some of his closest followers. These truths concerning js have been researched and documented over and over again. Even many of your scholars have taken issue with smith's revelations. Gods message never changes, nor does HE. How do you know that one of your ancestor grandmothers wasn't js' quick lay in the hay?
I can't help but wonder why more of your slaves haven't sought freedom. You have given the earnings and govermental subsidies over into the care of your priesthood who have taken profits from the businesses that they operate and given it into the care of a modern day js. Fortunately, for your sake, he now abides in jail and will hopefully, for your sake remain there the rest of his life.
Wouldn't each of you priests like to escape his clutches in a red Cadillac with thousands of dollars in cash, gift cards, phone cards, police scanners, radar detectors, disguises, laptop computers et. al. misc. wealth traveling in a tee shirt without your long john garments in sight!
Those who have been able to escape the slavery of js' invention are the most blessed of God. I have seen videos made by women and men who escaped your prison. They have come into the undesputed fact that Christ died for THEM, ALL OF THEM. They needen't work like a slave, be abused by 'sister?' wives, raped by their fathers, brothers or any other male with the punch allowing him to do as he will, with the blessing of the profit. Why have not other women and men attempted to escape the confines of the compounds which surround each of their outlying settlements with the exception of Hildale and Colorado City? In order to have the fortatude to dare to escape they must face the truth. You were born under the false assumption that upon your death you couldn't get into a higher heaven without the assistance of your husband, who's job itt is supposed to be, pull you through the veil into the next life.
It is appointed man once to die, and then comes the judgement.
You were taught that upon your death, with your god priest pulling you along you could climb joseph's ladder into eternal bliss. Note, Jacob, son of Isaac, son of Abraham is the individual in the book of Genesis who, as he slept dreamed of Angels accending and decending a ladder into God's presence. If you choose God's plan, choose Jacob's ladder. You will be safe and secure in the hands of the Loving God, Prince of Peace, Comfortor instead of js's intent for you to climb HIS ladder into eternal bliss. Through belief in Christ you will avoid the misconception that js and his good 'ol boy priest buddies can get you into heaven. joseph's ladder is not a ladder at all. It is a chute, leading straight down into the devil's hell. There is no way to return even to this earth, or even to a lower earth than you have been led to believe you now inhabit.
All men die. Then comes the judgement.
At the judgement the books will be opened and whosoever's name is not found written in the Lamb's Book of Life will end their existance screaming as they plummet down that chute. There is no stop nor reverse switch. I can hear those who are and have been the proudest of their presence in the priesthood screaming in agony, cursing their fathers, mothers, and especially js because of his great self gratifying lie, Mormanism.
Unlike D&C 132, the Bible never changes. It's been tested time after timb and found to say exactly the same thing. Jesus, gave IT ALL (HIMSELF) as payment in full for the sins of mankind from the beginning until now and even into timeless eternity. What did js, your prophet, your priesthood, your diciples, your father, brother, husband or uncle ever sacriffice, even unto death, even death on the cross to assure your eternal life. Jesus gave, I repeat GAVE, himself to be a sacrifice for you. Can you say the same about your bros. and sisters? Would they sacriffice themselves for you?
"Blessed is the man who, having nothing to say, abstains from giving us wordy evidence of the fact."
--George Eliot--
Another wise man once said "A man never describes his own character so clearly as when he describes another."
3:35 PM, if you are trying to convince us Mormons of the error of our ways, keep in mind what Henry David Thoreau once said; "If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. But do not care to convince him. Men will believe what they see. Let them see."
My concern is not about you men. It is the women and children whom I fear are in jepordy. They are nothing but chattel bought and sold upon your trading floor. It must be most difficult to keep sweet while being subjected to such cruelty.
My prayer is that somehow one of the women, who has access to a computer has an opportunity to turn to this blog just to see what is being said by both FLDS and by Christian America.
I am a sinner. I have been saved. I know that my salvation is sure, permenant, everlasting. I have never been short changed by God the Father, God-Jesus the son, God-the Holy Spirit. I-AM bearing all three distinct purposes, all of which are constantly being fulfilled. God, slumbers not nor sleeps. He knows the number of hairs on your head and to the exact nano-second the time of your death and where your final destinations lie. He is JUSTICE. At creation he understand that man would fall. He allowed mankind to procreate thus allowing for continuance of the race. Man fell so that God, being Justice could through the death on the cross by Jesus pay the purchase price, to himself as payment, in full, for mankind. Now the choice becomes the individual human's decision.
The price is paid. Will you accept HIS gift of salvation?
All the chatter about the world warming amounts to nothing. Does man really think that he has the knowledge and capability of reversing weather cycles. Rain-drought, sun-snow, hot-cold etc.etc.etc will continue until God determines 'time's up'
give me a break.....Go to your nearest brothel or stand out in the RED light district and preach that for as long as you like. Maybe go into hollywood ....see who the SLAVES the shackled the CHATTLE are! There you will see who is being bought and sold upon the trading floor! ARE YOU A BUYER???
No, neither am I a seller. Evidently you do not understand hyperbole.
I love these born again Christians. They (some not all) live any DAMNED way they want. Sleep with as many partners as they can, do as much drugs as they can, do all sort of abominations as they can but all the while they are saved because they said they were. To prove this, I'd ask you self righteous born again one question; How many parnters have you been with in you life? And how many of those are you still in a committed loving relationship with? 2 and 2 is my answer. What is yours?
I would propose that God (not Jesus, does that blow your mind or what)has his agency, that his spirit has it's agency, that Jesus has his agency and that they don't have to hang out with people that are not like them. While there are those that are truely committed to following after Jesus, the proof is in the pudding. You will do the works of Jesus. You will live his teachings. You will be of a like nature as him. This life isn't the "Wizard of Oz" and you aren't Dorothy. You don't get to click your heals and say, "there is no place like home" three times. "I'm saved" three times will not save you. When you die, you will take with you, your character and nature. So change your character and nature to be like Jesus, who shows us how to be like our Father.
Our little city and our simple people in CC are coming up against some harsh realities, it isn't the 1950's anymore. Our women are far more independant, so get with the program. Be a fountain of Love to your women and family and live your life blameless before God.
flame away friends
9:59
Go tell your progressive fairytale to those who have escaped the tyrany of polygamism, the priesthood and the constant judgement calls coming from everyone in their small environment. Bet you get called a liar.
We "born again" Christians did not coin the phrase nor make of it a by-word. John Chapt. 3 Jesus explains the new birth to Nicodemus. We are born in the flesh, as human beings at the end of our mother's pregnacy. This birth, physical birth comes not only with the expultion of the infant child from the mother's body butis accompanied by much body fluid. This is simply the birth of water. Natural birth in other words. Born of the flesh.
On the other hand, Jesus referred to birth of the spirit. It makes sense that in order to experience a spiritual birth you must have first experienced a physical birth.
Jesus said, "that which is born of flesh is flesh. That which is born of the spirit is spirit."
When asked about the 'spiritual birth' Jesus ask him if could see the wind, to tell where it came from or where it went. a spiritual birth is not one that takes place in a physical place but occurs in that hidden part of man, his soul.
New Birth simply explains that you can not physically observe that which is spiritual as it occurs. You however can see it's production by a change in lifestyle, prioities, loss of selfishness, love, not because you need some phjysical attention (eros) but because you sense that another individual is hurting and you attempt to find out how to relieve their pain and help them find comfort.
There is nothing judgemental in this. It simply states that it is ultimately you who makes the decision. The decision comes down to do I choose to beleve and serve Christ or remain in the flesh.
I think we can come to agreement on turning to Christ. However, (and i think we agree) saying it won't save you, the change that you make in your "soul" to live your life according the teachings of the Savior will. I think this is as close to agreement that we can make on the subject. Your religion says a spiritual rebirth, which is when you accept the Savior into you heart (and live according to his teachings would be the manifestation of that)and our religion (fundamental mormonism) we strive for the same.
2:10
If indeed you seek salvation through the Lord Jesus Christ and demonstrate that salvation that has allready taken place within your soul by acts of goodness, selflessness, charity, good council to your children et.al (infinity) With that you and I will agree.
See, pligs and born agains can agree on something.... Good job humanity!
A stopped clock is also right twice a day. After some time it can boast of a series of successes.
IITMOC
A stopped clock is also right twice a day. After some time it can boast of a series of successes.
IITMOC
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
elegant ITTMOC!
my discomfort with institutionalized religion stems from the fact that when you subject yourself to said institution, you subject yourself to ownership by the leaders of that institution, who in all probability
wont have your best interest at heart. I feel Ive learned this through being both "Morman fundamentalist" and "born again Christian"
uncaduff
Your discomfort with institutionlized religion is the fact that you never had a testimony given of God for your benefit!! You lived on someone else's coat tails all the while thinking you were doing just right. So when just the right thing came along for you to question if what you believed was right or not, your sandy foundation gave way right underneath you. So, then you went and found a supposed religion that could make you feel good in the things you wanted to do and feel, and make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside saying Oh goodie, I'm not damned after all. Only problem is after all is said and done, you find out that he who stands for nothing falls for anything.
10:33...shooting at an unknown target, in the dark, is dangerous to say the least.
you may hit something dear to yourself.
uncaduff
Hanging on someone elses coattail..."God and the Prophet always and only do right"
Having a testimony...Lying to ones self until their innards start churning at the conflict. Either that or a case of mastitis if you're a woman. I think I'll leave this testimony thing alone.
10:33 AM
Are you arguing for or against organized, institutionalized religion?
Uncaduff:
I completely agree with this:
My discomfort with institutionalized religion stems from the fact that when you subject yourself to said institution, you subject yourself to ownership by the leaders of that institution, who in all probability
wont have your best interest at heart.
That is precisely the reason why I have not attended any church whatsoever and blissfully plan on keeping it that way! And I can still raise good law (yes, man's laws) abiding children who respect their fellow human beings and do good.
bbgae
I attend a church (that is the membership) not the facilities, make up a fellowship of loving, caring, praying, helping neighbors and friends all of all whom think of the church as a meeting of the group for the purpose of worsip of The Living God. We make an effort to learn from God's word. We study the Bible, because that is the only book we hold as Divinely Inspired and the Word of intruction for life given to man by his Creator as a manuel of instruction.
Our facilities, buildings etc. are not ownned by a greater power such as a parrish or an assembly of appointed individuals who have met certain requirements, kissed the hands, or various other parts of the anatonmy of their thought of superiors in order to gain favor.
Our congregation, that fellowship of believers hold title to the facility and are incorporated uncer the laws of the state. We elect trustees for a period of three years. Our pastors are called to pastor our congregation following the appointment of a search committee, elected by the congregation then brought before the congregation to be called or rejected at the will of the congregation. We vote by secret balot so that no one can be coerced to vote one way or another.
We practice democracy as perhaps no other group of people in America. No one, not pastor, deacon or elder can, without the vote of the church to underwrite and support whatsoever is proposed as a project of special interest.
Each and every member has the right to voice their concern and to support or oppose any recommendation by any committee, the deacons, the pastor or anything.
We humans hold title to the physical plant. God holds title to his own, those who are among the saved by the blood of the Lamb of God. Christ's blood is the receipt of payment for the lost souls of man. He gave his life in payment for ours and we are His alone.
Do you see that you may have mis-judged the fact that all churches are under someone's control? If we, as a congregation failed in our purpose of leading the lost to Christ, we as a congregation will begin to die. Growth will stop, the message will be diminished and the people will have become so carnal that they will have lost interest in God's work. Only a revival of the congregation, becoming once more ignited with the fire of God's love for us will allow us to regain that spark of love for which we seek to share with others.
1:46-
Yes, perhaps I did misjudge that all organized religion is under someone's control.
About two years ago I came very close to becoming a born again Christian myself. One of my best friends is one and she invited me to go to her church.
I agree with her, and with you, on all the basic principles and the concept behind them (when I am not doubting the existence of God altogether.) But then I started to realize everything wasn't as simple as she made it sound. Her pastor told the congregation "The DaVinci Code" was the spirit anti-Christ, and she refused to let her children watch the "Harry Potter" movies because they contained witch-craft. Subtle little things like that that to me smacked all too familiarly of religious control.
I think it is entirely possible for certain sects of any number of various churches and organized religion to be as pure and as beautiful as you described. But, all such organizations are comprised of humans, and humans are not perfect. Of course you can argue with God's help they may become better and closer to obtaining a degree of perfection and salvation, and I will agree with you.
But I do not think it is necessary to align one's self with any organized religion in order to obtain salvation.
What is it that we as a race, as a species find so lacking in ourselves that we feel compelled and needful of some other imagined entity in order to draw on the strength and goodness that already exists within us? Why can't we just be good and strong by ourselves? I, for one say we can if we could find the courage to rid ourselves of our need for co-dependency.
1:46 PM
Your church is definitely different than the Mormon church and very much different than the FLDS. In the Mormon Church, many things are done by common consent while other items are “revealed” and therefore the people have no say because it is “from the Lord.” In the FLDS, there is no such thing as “common consent” because the “one man” is “divinely inspired” in all things, both of a spiritual nature and physical (or temporal) nature. Whatever he says is how it is because he “speaks for the Lord” and he has “the right to rule.”
I most certainly agree, in any organization, the people need a voice. I once heard that "where there is no involvement, there is no commitment." I believe that is true. I also believe that as you take away the involvement of the people the need for dictating every action and controlling all aspects of their lives increases. That is the reason there has to be so much positional authority and control used in many organizations (Mormonism and the FLDS do not have a monopoly on this).
So now you may be wondering why there seems to be such a level of commitment and loyalty to the “prophet.” It is really quite simple. Those who follow have convinced themselves that they will only be saved by 100% obedience to that man and his teachings. That gives this “one man” absolute authority and control, which was given him by the people. If he is an honorable man, he will use this position to lead many people unto proper living. If a dishonorable man is in that position....well we have seen what is happening.
Something I have wondered though is this: If two men went through life and they were both honest, loving, caring individuals. They always dealt justly with their fellow man, never stole, never took advantage of another and sought to help others whenever and however they could. In all they did they lived by the Golden Rule and the Law of the Harvest.
Now one man lived this way because he felt that is how we should all treat each other. He also realized that we have the ability to choose our actions, but not the ability to choose the consequence of that action. He had come to a knowledge that all things are governed by natural and unchanging laws and principles which always dictated the outcome of an action.
The other man lived as he did because his religion required it. He had also been ordained to a special place in that religion, and was given many promises if he remained faithful. The second man was also living this way out of fear of the consequences (hellfire and damnation). He also believed that all the promises of salvation given him by his religion would be taken away if he did not remain faithful to that religion.
So, both men went through life treating their fellow man the same, but for different reasons. Which one will the Lord be more pleased with?
And if he is more pleased with one, how come?
Will one have a greater glory in Heaven? If so, why?
Would it make a difference if the first man had been exposed to the second mans religion? What if at one point he had been a part of it, would that change anything?
Just a few things to ponder.
IITMOC
I failed to mention that both men believe in God and both use the Bible as a source of inspiration.
IITMOC
bbgae,
perhaps I did misjudge that all organized religion is under someone's control.
comment
if you place yourself under the control of any organization, you are controlled by those persons who control that organization. will they have your best interest at heart?
-think it is entirely possible for certain sects of any number of various churches and organized religions to be as pure and as beautiful as you described. But, all such organizations are comprised of humans, and humans are not perfect
comment
they will be as" pure and beautiful" as the imperfect humans who construct and maintain them.
Why can't we just be good and strong by ourselves? I, for one say we can if we could find the courage to rid ourselves of our need for co-dependency.
comment.
"good and strong by our selves" is a brief , but incomplete, description of salvation. what is left out is; we are incomplete without our personal connection with our creator. as for "co-dependency" we will always depend on each other, there is no getting around it. but after our parents have taught us to pray, if we seek inspiration from god through an organization or another man, what we receive will at best, be no better than the medium through which it came. I personally reserve the right to judge for myself, the merits of said medium.
uncaduff :}
uncaduff, do you believe that the gift of Prophecy has left this earth?
shinto, that term has been used quite loosely over time so I don,t know exactly what you mean by it. what I don,t believe in is the Idea that God puts a man on earth to rule in his stead. I do believe that individuals receive inspiration for there own lives, but if someone starts to tell me what "the Lord wants me to do" at best they are are wasting there time.
uncaduff
Statement to poster: 12/01/2007 1:46 PM
The bible would read alot differently if the prophets would have set up a situation like that. Upside is they wouldn't have been slain but rather voted out because the message they delivered. Downside is they would get voted out and the people wouldn't hear God's unpopular calls for repentance.
I guess I'm too indoctrinated to see outside my box, but if the pastor/minister/hired hand is just preaching to keep his job that comes up for renewel every 3 years then wouldn't he just tell you all how wonderful you are?
Ignorant in CC
Here is the part where you'll tell me how backward my religion is (trust me I've heard it), but if you will humor me and try to answer the question then I think you might have just enlightened a poor dum, unlearned, hick from the sticks CC boy.
good points uncaduff. What I meant was; do you think there are still people on this eath that God communicates with like the bible says he used to? with visions and visitation and all that.
and, just to be honest; I personally do not take the bible as seriously as most people. I think that it's a very old book and many things have probably been lost in translation. :P (no serious bible-bashing intended.)
*earth, not eath
I can't spell *sighs*
None of us can spell. But we're all good "Christians" about it and forgive each other's typo errors.
:)
shinto,2:24, Ive been forced by life's experiences to keep a good sized grain of salt handy when encountering any of these stories.
uncaduff ;)
and, just to be honest; I personally do not take the bible as seriously as most people.
I think that it's a very old book and many things have probably been lost in translation. :P (no serious bible-bashing intended.)
12/03/2007 2:24 PM
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>><<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
shinto, Im gonna stick my neck out, and ask a simple question.
some of us question the acreasy of the translation of the bible.
my question is; what justifies us in beleiving that the men who "sat in the seat of the preisthood", in those days were any more infallable than men are in our own day? in other words; was the original accurate in the first place?
I awate a storm of rightious indignation. -
uncaduff.
00
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Probably a lot more gets lost in interpretation than ever did in translation, and we know that was a lot.
that's a good point uncaduff. I guess it just all comes down to what you personally believe.
It depends on the spirit that is in you. If it is consistently pure, then there is clarity and belief and surety of every word, and then I will add what Joseph added: "As far as it is translated correctly". This is why he had to correct some of their misinterpretations of old. And even that is very questionable if there is no purity of spirit within you, pure living according to the strict united effort and order of a saint.
wow! Here I am a poor abused brainwashed plural WIFE and I never knew it! I just thought I was "protected". I thought I never got alot of time with my husband was because he works his butt off trying to support his family. (I didn't know he was so selfish.) All this time he could have been mine and only mine but he's so selfish he takes care of everyone he loves! Man! That self centered Man!!!
So Street the Torah was not translated correctly until js came along?
Perhaps. Even the ancient Jews had to be spanked quite often. But you're only talking about five books. God's library is endless, and is revealed in every age of the world in its pure form, through the purest medium. Uncle Roy showed me his library, as he did for many. I was awe-struck.
Even the Torah went through many generations of translations and retranslations, right along with the rest of the Book.
12/19/2007 12:55 PM
LOL: Very Good.
This is kind of off the subject but does anyone know what is going on in the South Dakota compound? I have good reason to believe a relative is living there but I never hear anything about it.
Relative? That's, ummm, how shall we say...relative: "Who is my neighbor, my brother, my sister"? The Lords asks a very good question here, and HE also gives the answer.
Street
I'd rather not hear your precious comments, but if you insist on it here goes. Where do Warren's people get their food, cloth to make clothes, building materials for houses and etc...???? Why, from that wicked world they despise so much and think they are above. Where is the self dependence that Brigham Young AND U. Roy tried to get the people to accept???????
That is such a good point. My heart breaks to see such blind ignorance. If God condoned more than one wife, why didn't he give Adam many? Just because men in the Bible had many wives, doesn't mean that was Gods plan. It might look like harmony on the outside, but it is heart breaking to see ones husband walk into anothers bedroom for the night. You women claim to love your children. I'm sure you do. To a degree. What safty do these girls feel when their mother and father force them to marry who they are not in love with? And of all men, someone who is so much older with other wives. I mother should be like a lion or a bear. They will fight and even give their life for their children. I am so glad that Warren Jeffs is in prison. But it is not fair that the men that married these girls and the fathers and mothers that handed these girls over are not in jail. This is not fair.
You freaks make me laugh, you idolize a 19th century bearded pedophile...Joseph Smith was a con man of the highest order, he stole the teachings of the Blue Light of the Masonic Brotherhood to further warp the minds of the people who followed him [Your blasphemous temple ordinances ARE the ordinances of the brotherhood] He has tried repeatedly before to recruit people to other religions that he claimed to be true, he is nothing more than a false prophet, he deserved his fate, though personally I would have loved to have seen him castrated with a hot iron first.
Jeffs is even worse, he has used his power to amass wealth for himself and destroy the lives of others so completely, he is a sanctioning rapist, NO ONE should be forced into a marriage, let a lone a sexual relationship not of their own choosing. You destroy the lives of these women, both young and old because you cannot keep it in your pants. Yours is a religion based upon lies and falsehoods...What next, raping babies, oh wait there are reports of that too...
You assault those who comment against you, but why is it that these stories KEEP coming out, hm? I guess all those people keep telling lies...Why did Warren run if he did nothing wrong, why live in such a closed society, why make mens families vanish and kick out younger men? Lies lies lies, all you have is your lies.
Each and every one of you bastards is going to hell, and it will be a pleasure to see your seed annihalated from this planet, your end is coming, the governments will get you all eventually, if you think you are going to be safe in Utah for much longer you are wrong...We will pressure then governnment, especially candidate Mitt Romney, we will fet you jailed for what you have done and your women freed into the lives that they deserve...
Your end is near, and the fires will take you all in the end...
Hey, judge not that ye be not judged.....hummm mean anything to you? just wondered.
G M
1:46 pm
too many people are like ships; they toot the loudest when they are in a fog
RESOURCES:
Just a Small One said... 28th 10:16
Street
I'd rather not hear your precious comments, but if you insist on it here goes. Where do Warren's people get their food, cloth to make clothes, building materials for houses and etc...???? Why, from that wicked world they despise so much and think they are above. Where is the self dependence that Brigham Young AND U. Roy tried to get the people to accept???????
12/28/2007 10:16 PM
__________________________________
MY REPLY:
RESOURCES:
So, the source of all resources. God is the source, not any man nor city nor set of men. Why do you insist on idolatry, looking to men as the source of anything? It just stunts your growth, and makes you…well…”Just a Small One”. So well put, widdo pud. God is even the source of that, and if the FLDS prove prophetable to the world like you say, producing great profits in their behalf, it just shows that they can come out of the world and still live in it, being a light on a hill that all the world must see. Yet, what do you know. They even grow their own food, and make cloth, and building materials. But in the end, we shall eat manna (Rev.2:17), and have light for a covering (Ps.104:2), and our building will be buildings made without hands (Mk.14:58).
My “precious comments”? Thank you for the commentpliment.
Street
Reply To: 12/28/2007 10:16 PM
Resources
The source of all resources. God is the source, not any man nor city nor set of men. Why do you insist on idolatry, looking to men as the source of anything? It just stunts your growth, and makes you…well…”Just a Small One”. So well put, widdo pud. God is even the source of that, and if the FLDS prove prophetable to the world like you say, producing great profits in their behalf, it just shows that they can come out of the world and still live in it, being a light on a hill that all the world must see. Yet, what do you know. They even grow their own food, and make cloth, and building materials. But in the end, we shall eat manna (Rev.2:17), and have light for a covering (Ps.104:2), and our building will be buildings made without hands (Mk.14:58).
My “precious comments”? Thank you for the commentpliment.
Street
FLDS Polygamy: God’s Plan (Sec.1)
Texas Blog-Building Vanished Thread
1/02/2008 9:49 AM and 1/02/2008 1:46 PM
Just the alarmism of violent and immoral people. Your posts show how so little you know. You blaspheme Joseph Smith as bearded. Guess what? No beard. He never did have one. Okay, you say that if God condoned more than one wife, why didn’t He give Adam many? The Bible is NOT all of history on earth. It’s a goodun, but there is more. Apocryphal works speak of Eve, Lilleth, Sarah, and an entire colony of polygamists.
The very Hebrew word for Adam is Adam and Ababuah, meaning “eruption, mankind, dismayed but innocent”, to populate the earth. And what is also very telling is the Hebrew for Eden and for Eve: Eden is Adamdam: A or Alpha (the Hebrew letter Aleph) is God (“I am Alpha”), “dam is damsel, plus dam or other damsels” (Adamdam: polygamy). It means “Egypt: Land of the Nile, river, flood of immortality”, vs a-nihil-ate. A flood of seed must include many women. Immortality is what Eden was before the Fall. Eve in Hebrew is Zohar, which means “brilliance”, as light and life: Women radiating everywhere across the earth and across the sky. Also, Chavvah: “Life giver”, which FLDS women are, with an abundance of life, vs your serial killings of innocent children, the takers of the most innocent, over a million babies slain every year. So who is innocent?
Now we all know deep down that there is only one God or Father of us all, and millions of mothers. Yes, only one Father and millions of mothers. Is that not polygamy? As for the age difference, Mary was called a “virgin” (Mt.1:23, Lk.1:27). The Hebrew for virgin is “Elem”, as in Elementary. The oldest elementary age of our day is 12, the 6th grade, and the Lord commands the first fruit when it is the purest (Ex.22:29), at puberty, “yielding her fruit every month” (Rev.22:2). “Ye shall know them by their fruits” (Mt.7:16). If it’s not the first or best fruits, it’s not known as notorious. There you go, the Word of the Lord, if you love the Lord. So she was 12, yet the Father is many many years older, is He not. Shouldn’t we follow the Way of the Father and the Son? It is obviously God’s Plan.
FLDS Polygamy: God’s Plan (Sec.2)
Finally, it is rape to breed them flesh to flesh, for that is the animal nature in man, not human nor divine. This is why the Immaculate Conceptions of the FLDS is so crucial, and what I was taught all my life by the FLDS Prophet. “Thou shalt conceive…How shall this be, seeing I know not a man…The power of the highest shall overshadow thee…”. It is never flesh to flesh, but a sowing to the spirit (Gal.6:8). “Neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die” (Gen.3:3), the tree or genealogical tree in the midst of the garden, midway between the crown of the head and the souls of the feet.
So if your “heart breaks” as you say, to see these FLDS men dealing with virgins with such perfection, that makes you the criminals and freaks, the sex-offenders among us, con-men and women of the lowest order, and the killers of innocent children. Then, let your filthy hearts break, for God Himself says that such hearts must fail (Gen.42:28, Ps.40:12, D&C 45:26, 88:91), for “Satan stirs up your hearts to anger and finally death”. And Paul, filled with the Holy Ghost, said: “O full of all subtlety and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord? Now behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee.” (Acts 13:9).
If Joseph found some truth in the Masonic brotherhood, it further proves his intellect, for “We accept all truth from whatever source it may come.” Brotherhood is good, and God is the source, not man. You only accuse righteous men of “stealing” teachings because you lack learning yourself, and steal away the lives and the hopes of others as pro-choice and as law against the bearing of children, as Satan does, your mind being warped and “seared with a hot iron” (I Tim.4:2). So you emulate the Jews by calling the His teachings “blasphemous” (Luke 22:65). For you to wish castration just proves your violence, your criminal and sexual perversion for all to see. So the pit and the evil that you wish on others, you must suffer yourself, says the Lord, “to the uttermost farthing” (Ezek.31, Prov.26:27, Mt.5:26, Rev.9:1).
The world has been fed the lie that by encouraging faith in God’s placement and fidelity in marriage, as shown throughout the scriptures that Warren Jeffs has somehow raped, you have thus promoted the very idea that God’s Will and marriage fidelity is actually rape. Here are the scriptures that prove the eternal truth of placement marriage: Gen.2:22 (God brought the woman to the man), Gen.16:9, 21:13 (God Himself commanding plural wives, but for who? For the faithful and “Father of the Faithful”. Then, for his son Isaac, again by placement marriage, Abraham sent his servant to “take a wife unto my servant Isaac” (Gen.24:4).
This pattern is throughout the prophets, from Genesis to Revelation, even to “Jesus Christ, the bridegroom” of Cana (John 2:9), after “Jesus was called to the marriage” (placement: John 2:2). After that, he entered into polygamy, as we see him directing the domestic affairs of multiple women, such as Mary and Martha (Luke 10:41). That is only the proper place of a husband, says the Lord Himself: “He shall rule over thee”, says the Lord (Gen.3:16).
This is not because he “couldn’t keep it in his pants”, as you blaspheme, but precisely because he could, being a virtuous man, as are his disciples also, to this day. I personally witnessed Warren’s denial of women time and time again in our growing up together. It is the divine nature within him, blaspheme as you will. You speak of “raping babies” while the Prophet and his trustees demand all members continually to “LEAVE THOSE WOMEN ALONE, and while you support the law in slaying the babies by the millions. You damned hypocrite, as Christ often says.
You speak of assault. Who has assaulted who (Mt.10:34). Yes, your assaults are legion and glaring! Then you reveal the basis of your assertions: “Because these stories keep coming out”. There you go! Because of stories, the sexual excitement of a thousand tongues, you will establish a verdict, just as the majority did in Jerusalem at the Crucifixion. Also you ask: “Why did Warren run? Why live in such a closed society”? Why did Christ run, all the Way to Egypt, and even on his returning he ran again from Jerusalem to Galilee. He was guilty, is that it? He maintained a closed society, until the “enemy broke in” (Mt.13:25). “Come out of the world, my people, and be not partakers of her sins” (Rev.18:4). Through and through, you reject Jesus Christ, and assume the corruption that boils within yourself. So out of your own mouth your guilt is established, and as you say: “Lies, lies, lies”. Then you advocate genocide, saying “It will be a pleasure to see your seed annihilated from this planet”. Your guilts are most glaring, even capital crimes against humanity itself, and what does the Lord say?
“And the nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that Thou shouldst give reward unto Thy servants the prophets and unto the saints, and them that fear Thy name small and great, and shouldst destroy them which destroy the earth” (Rev.11:18).
Street
Someone is missing a cobble or two on a deadend street
"Anonymous said...
Someone is missing a cobble or two on a deadend street"
Of course they are, they spout crap that no one else understands or cares to understand, they start screaming about Abortion [I never mentioned that once] so that they can continue to expound on their views.
And of course its all the men that we hear from, because they feel that what they are doing is just and right...The more that we drag them out into the open the more they will be shown for what they are...
A bunch of racist, child molesters and rapists...Zion? I don't think so...
Not all are like that 6:54, hence the revelation of pulling the weeds from the wheat as some form of saying. We all make mistakes and let the one without sin cast the first stone. I'm not backing up the child molesters or rapists they will all be judged accordingly as will the rest of us. Just want to say just cuz one person or two are weeds doesent make the rest of the field worthless.
And the owner of this blog refused to post the last statement I made in response to someone who uses ONLY the arguments that I got an issue about a "beard" wrong.
They don't want to post my response to that hate, I would like to see the blog owner post it, I should have the right to defend myself.
We as Americans have freedom of speech and freedom of religion, or we are supposed to have freedom of religion! Let them live theirs and you live yours! Just because you do not know every thing they do, and you don't understand what you do know, dose not make them bad people.
So well put, Smiley. Sorry it took me FIVE WEEKS to respond to you, but love is eternal.
Ahh, banished buildings, unto the Land of Oz, the Emerald City. Emerald is Netzach, Triumph, nigh unto God's Sanctuary.
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