Click on the title; it will take you to the SLT page.
If I understand it correctly, a five- year- to- life sentence means the accused serves three to four years and then goes before a review board who decide, based on conduct and other things, how much further- if any- time needs to be served. Since the judge ordered they be served consecutively, that means Warren will be in prison for 6-8 years before going before the review board. The judge was kind enough to let the time Warren has already served at Purgatory since being captured be used against the 6-8 years. That means Warren will be in prison for at least 4 years. But first, he goes to Arizona for the trail there.
IMHO- it was very smart of the judge to order Warren to serve the sentences consecutively. We don't want him on the top ten most wanted list again. I also think He will be allowed his freedom after the first review. And if and when that happens, maybe, maybe he will conduct himself with just a little more kindness. Either that or come out more extreme and biased than ever.
86 comments:
Warren Jeffs should get life for his role in the rape and abuse of these women...he used God's name for control and power of all of you.
he'll die in prison...or be killed there.
Whatever....he chose his fate.
I was told that Warren was a student of the literary works of Adolf Hitler, can anyone tell me more about this? was he ever heard to quote Hitler, or recommend any of his ideas?
uncaduff
I'm by no means a fan of Warren but if you look at the merits of this case and it is a miscarriage of justice.
8:14 A.M. anon.
Warren based his whole modus operandi on a book ,Rise and fall of the Third Reich,I mean the mind control,propaganda techniques etc,, not particularly the nazi racist doctrines.Not that WSJ isnt racist,he is,but not the anti-semitic,genocidal type rascisim associated with neo-nazi groups.
Bull**it
I agree with anon above, The LDS, Baptists, and every other religion better take care now, if they preach procreation or multiply and replenish, or fidelity, or any other moral attribute, they are setting themselves up for 10 years. I realize there is some differences in the public mind, but that fact of the matter is, that Mr. Jeffs did what his Father asked him to do. U. Fred and U. Rulon are the ones who put the two together, what was Mr. Jeffs to do? Go against his Father? This case really has no basis, and it's only the frenzy from the media, and the malcontents, and people of the same mind frame as uncaduff that slam this person. I say "He who is without sin cast the first stone"
uncaduff's mind frame is; if Uncle Fred and Uncle anyone, told anyone to do anything illegal, or immoral,and they do it,why should they be exempt from the consequents? your frame of mind seems to assume that obedience relives one of responsibility for there actions. that, my friend,is the keystone of tyranny.
respectfully, uncaduff.
I think too many forget one very important fact. It wasn't the marriage aspect that got him in trouble. It was the UNDERAGE aspect that did.
IITMOC
In my opinion society would be best served if Warren serves a shorter rather than longer sentence.
As long as he is in prison he is still Christ to his people and any confessions he makes there will either be witheld from his followers or it will be construed as a distortion of evildoers. If he dies there he will go down forever in history as a martyr to his people.
I am guessing that, from watching him in court and hearing what has gone down with him in jail, he wouldn't risk doing anything that would put him back there. I don't think that he could handle it.
If he gets out at least he has the opportunity to confess in person before his people if he chooses to do so. If he doesn't do that, at least there is the chance that some of his followers will get to see him for what he really is and have a chance of saving themselves and their families from his tyranny. As long as he is in prison he will always be their perfect prophet.
I think some of the consideration for his sentencing may have come from the other harm he has caused, but could not be charged with, like the broken families, "Lost Boys" and just the kind of control he placed on people.
I won't say the FLDS way of life is wrong, but it should be each ADULT persons free choice.
come come, ye saints, what news from Zion?
Zion prospers, all is well, and ye apostates can go to H#**!
None so blind as those who refuse to see...
What will history say about the current flock of post Warren FLDS?
I was wondering what Texas is doing about YFZ now that Jessop's book " Escape " has shed light on the truth about Merril and his abuse of his wifes. We know that he has married many since Carolyn Jessop has escaped his evil snare...
Heard locals in Texas have a "don't ask don't tell" policy because YFZ pays 1/2 million in taxes like a slot machine.
Who gives a crap about any of it??
bo- Your posted statement is beyond belief. Mr. W. Jeffs is 100% responsible and accountable for his actions. Any indoctrination he received as a youth is no excuse for breaking the law. Orchestrating the marriage of under aged girls is not only against the laws of our country but morally is against the laws of God. His punishment here on Earth in prison will pale in comparison to the judgment he has merited in the here-after.
Followers of W. Jeffs- Does his prison confession to his brother that he was never a prophet hold water with you? Do you feel it was coursed or invalid? What has the community leadership decided on in regards to a new leader/prophet? Are all the ceremonies he performed, having the sealing powers he proclaimed to have, nil and void?
Where does this turn of events leave the FLDS church?
As much as I do not agree with the teachings of Warren, I have to admit to the miscarriage of justice done to him and his followers. Being that I am currently LDS, it really pisses me off that he was railroaded in such an unfair and extreme way. How could he be brought up on charges of accomplice to rape, when no charges of rape were filed until after the guilty verdict was returned? This was an attack by the local LDS officials on the FLDS church hiearchy. What a crock, and I am embarrassed. Religious freedom in this country my ass.
Religious freedom in this country my ass.
____________________________________
If you mean,"do anything you want and call it religion", I certainly hope not.
uncaduff
uncaduff - How come you are always such a grump and negative about everything. I hope you feel happy once in a while I feel sorry for your family.
whaddya mean grumpy? everything I say I say with a smile. :}. and my family loves me. :]
uncaduff
What will history say about the current flock of post Warren FLDS?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
see proverbs 26:11
As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly. -Proverbs 26:11
OUCH!
I love ya Uncaduff!! I get you, even if the peeps think you are grouchy!
uncaduff smears you with common sense. Learn it!
We love ya uncaduff!
GBNF
Boo Boo Boo Boo uncaduff
11/24 6:32
Your quote must have come from Schleicher County's beloved hopefully soon to be ex-county judge.
His tenure in office reminds me of the Hank Williams tune "If you got the money, honey, I got the time." To simplify matters, Cash only! Build roads without contracts signed. Hmmm. Can't help but wonder how many YFZ dollars went toward this farce.
Ex Cum Laude graduate of Texas Government 101 by George Parr, deceased political boss of Duval and other South Texas Counties, Judge Griffin learned well. In 1948 Parr was credited with delivering the vote from Jim Wells County to Lyndon Johnson in place of the well respected Gov. Coke Stevenson who carried the majority of the rest of the state by a handy margin. Upon examination of the ballot it was discovered that some deceased individuals voted for Lyndon not once but twice. Johnson overwhelmingly carried Jim Wells County which led to an 83 vote majority thus electing Johnson to the U.S. Senate. Until his death Johnson was "lovingly" called landslide Lyndon.
Schleicher County Government has become the laughing stock of Southwest Texas because of the antics of the sitting county judge.
I surely hope that Schleicher County commissioners gain enough intestinal fortitude to assist a new judge in understanding that they represent four votes and that he only votes in case of a tie! That it is THEIR responsability to determine the needs of the county and it is HIS job to carry out THEIR instructions.
11/21 8:14
Wm. L. Shirer's "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich" is an interesting read. This lengthy but scholarly study of the rise of A. Hitler and his influence over the German people does seem to parallel some of W. Jeffs tactics.
The radical left would lead us as a people to a similar fate by their insistance that each ethnic group maintain their own native language. This error alone will lead to the formation of groups of people at odds with other groups thus ultimately resulting in civil war and the possible destruction of America.
The desire of some in Quebec would cause a rift in the Canadian Commonwealth. Why? Because at the end of the French and Indian War Brittain did not require those in Quebec to learn to read and write in English.
America and England agree that their goverments represent a people divided by a common language. Yes, we Americans speak English (of a sort) and the Brits, (stiff nosed but loyal allies)can, and do talk to us and we to them, but with mutual understanding of the issue. This one common talent has made the Anglo-American (also include Australia, Canada, and The Union of South Africa) peoples have delivered slaves from tyrants, been missionaries to the lost, feeding worldwide hunger, and healed the sick and those victims of tyrany. In addition we (as a peoples) have taught skills to those ungrateful people which are now being used to build weapons capable of destroying each other and damaging us.
In Europe, as in Asia and Africa there is no common language. Polish is spoken among Polish people, French (bless their treacherous lying hearts) speak French and only grudgingly admit that there are any other languages on the planet, Italians speak Italian, Germans, German. War after war has plagued the European Continent since pre- Helenistic times. Why? They can't understand each other. Neither Language nor ethnic traditions are tolerated. The European Union, so far, is a joke. (period)
Are we going down the same road?
Warren's attorney want his trail moved. The story here.
Isn't this the same tactic they used before the Washington County trial? Isn't it the same tactic Allen Steed's attorney is using? Sheesh! They act like they don't get to help pick the jurors.
Oh! And for the record, Uncaduff rocks!
I like Uncaduff, but he thinks he knows everything, and noone knows everything.
I find more believable in unacaduff's posts than I do in th posts of his harsh critics.
If engaged in conversation with uncaduff he and I would quickly determine that we, the two of us, would disagree on many issues but, I believe uncaduff addresses his readers from the heart and he and I both know we don't know everything! How foolish to even presume so. I think that uncaduff and I would find that there were many issues upon which the two of us would agree. So is life and so are thinking individuals
11:15, Its been my observation that people who "think they know everything", tend to display, at times, a phenomenal ignorance. have the things I've posted displayed a high level of ignorance? if so please set me straight. I only express my opinion, based on my life's experience. what do you base your opinion on?
respectfully uncaduff
11/27/2007 1:37 PM-
I for one most certainly do not think IITMOC will end up in hell. IF there is a heaven at all, I think he will be there (yes, I know I'm not GOD and the choice is not going to be mine- but it won't be yours either, so stop judging.)
Why is it EVERYTHING to do with polygamous people or the FLDS HAS to be damming and evil? Gasp! Oh no! They dared to draw breath and they have multiple spouses- they must be evil. And if anyone dares to defend those innocent people who are just trying to live a good life before God and have never and will never hurt another person- yes, I know it is really, really difficult for you to comprehend there actually might be people in polygamous religions like that, but, do try? for me?- then said defenders are subject to your scorn?
Do you know there are polygamous people that judge you with your same ruler and come out with the same results? You (I am assuming) are an evil gentile! It doesn't matter what religion you belong to because you don't serve the prophet therefore, you are dammed!
C'mon! Can't you see the ridiculousness of judging the world with a black and white ruler and a narrow mind?
Most of us come to accept there is good and bad in ALL peoples and situations. There are many "gentiles" who are GOOD people. And there are many "gentiles" who abuse others- they rape and murder etc.
If you say there are things that go on in the FLDS communities that are wrong, immoral, and unlawful, I WILL TOTALLY AGREE WITH YOU. But, (and I think this is the point IITMOC was trying to make) THAT DOES NOT MEAN ANY POLYGAMOUS PEOPLE ARE ABSOLUTELY AND TOTALLY BAD!
2:50-
Polygamists are too SMALL minded to respect a scientist with only two children that is making it possible for the earth to sustain more people.
Not this ex-plyg.
My husband is going to go back to school for genetics after he has finished his bachelor's degree. He has the most brilliant idea for terraforming the Sahara desert. We have halogen light bulbs through out our entire house. And don't even get me started on Global warming....
Oh the global warming thing is just Crock anyway. Just some ex-politician using scare tactics as a get rich-quick scheme. Hmmmm seems to be a lot of that fright thing going around, like WJ
Halogen? You mean CFL, don't you.
People will still be denying global warming when palm trees start growing in Antarctica.
Would that be the same global warming that's been going on since the last ice age? Or, how about the ice age before that one? Maybe the dozen or so ice ages that predated the two aforementioned ones? Just wondering.
Tequila Mockingbird
"A planet doesn't explode of itself"
Said Drily, the Martian astronomer, gazing into the air.
"That they were able to do it is proof
That mighty intelligent beings must have been living there."
and a piece of it fell on my tail!
said chicken little.
it's been happening since the days of Aesop, 6th century BC.
uncaduff
New FLDS compound found in Texas, in addition to YFZ near Eldorado, it appears the FLDS also has compound 40 miles north east of Del Rio, Texas in Edwards county near town of Carta Valley. Newspaper Eldorado Success reported in it's Nov 29 edition.
Wow, bbgae; I'll try to stay on your good side for sure :) Especially if you can guarantee my salvation :) :)
Actually, each person decides their own salvation based on their own actions in this mortal life.
And yes, bbgae, I believe that every one of us has good and bad in us, although that was not exactly the point I was trying to make. The point I was trying to make was to not judge one person based on another persons actions, be those actions good or bad. We will be saved or dammed individually, based on the actions of this life, not by association, ordination, or belief; although those can be helpful in guiding the values we live by that determine our actions.
Personal belief here, but I don’t think Christ died to justify our sins. I believe He died to give us the freedom to choose the right actions and avoid sins, or agency if you like. He died, in my mind, to give each one of us the freedom of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY.
I also only see forgiveness working if we recognize our mistakes and make the corrections of our own free will and choice, not out of fear of the judgement we may receive, but because we realize that is how we should live and treat our fellow brothers and sisters on this Earth. I do not see forgiveness without a personal effort to overcome whatever wrong it was we committed.
Vows, rituals, ordinations, sacrifices and religious convictions etc are to remind us of our commitment to do right, but they do not take the place of right actions or repenting of wrong ones. And one last thing, those who try to take away another persons right of choice, or agency, are the worst anti-Christ I can think of, even if the intent was to make certain that person is saved.
IITMOC
IITMOC, wow. that was a good say.
isn't it interesting, how people who free themselves to think there own thoughts, and filter out the pseudo intellectual noise and false piety around them,so often arrive at similar conclusions?
uncaduff
IITMOC
Good post: 11/28/ 9:15 PM
I must challenge your fourth paragraph. Jesus death on the cross was not for the purpose of granting man feedom of choice. That freedom was guaranteed to
Adam in the Garden of Eden. Because of Eve's desire for that which appealed to her carnal nature she was pursuaded by Satan to eat of the fruit. Not wanting to be alone in her action she pursuaded Adam to eat of the forbidden fruit also. They made a choice. God had told them not to eat of that fruit, Satan used his wiles to cause doubt to come into Eve's mind. 'God said, If you eat of this fruit you shall surely die.' "Surely you will not die!" Satan's Ace in the hole of temptation was to question God's willingness to allow death to come upon the inhabitants of planet earth. The first two persons willingly questioned God, and mankind has been suffering from that same freedom of choice ever since. But, by having that freedom we can choose to act in a way that pleases God, or the opposite. I firmly believe that all man continually chooses to follow his own carnal nature thus being in direct disobedience to God.
God, however, even before the foundation of the world, knowing all things, past, present, future made a plan to redeem mankind. When the days and events were fulfilled that he should provide Jesus to come to earth to demonstrate the true nature of God. Until the coming of Jesus the vast majority of people who claimed to be People of God, i.e. were desendents of Abraham.
These were the first to receive the message of redemption but they were caught up in their own "good 'ol' boy" method of operation and in observing the actions and teachings of Jesus would cause them to have to repent, admit the error of their ways and admit that they were sinners. Jesus provided that key ingrediant that had been lost at Eden: A renewal of personal relationship with God, insturctions upon how to commnicate with HIM through the third part of the Godhead, The Holy Spirit.
Again, God, who made everything, and in fact therefore owns everything, sent Jesus as the pre known sacrifice, planned since before the foundation of the earth.
That plan to restore fellowship in many ways is so simple that we, who have advanced education, are wealthy, through earned or inherited value. We brag about how we did this, or that how our possessions make us most favored among men. This attitude tends to make us as individuals rebellious to the fact that we to have sinned and need to be saved.
God's perfect plan was put into place duriing the Roman Empire, during one of earth's most peacful time. Rome had built roads, sent military guards to trouble spots, established a justice system that worked, sometimes for the good, other times for the bad (just like our judicial systems worldwide operate today).
Jesus birth, his recognation even as an infant as being the promised one, his life, his ministry, his care and love for those who suffered and his out and out condemnation of those who represented the church (actually Jews don't have churches but worship in synagogs which they will continue to do until end times when the Hebrew Temple will be rebuilt again upon Mount Zion in Jerusalem.
The multitudes followed after Jesus, marveling at his compassion, capability to feed masses from a meger little boy's lunch, raise the dead from a distance, heal horrible disease, cause the deaf to hear, the blind to see. In addition Jesus taught that God's plan for us was to love one another. He went to the cross so that those very scoffers who, while his ministry was going on might be saved, as well as the masses who turned their eyes upon him believing him to be the Only Begotten Son of God.
He who had set the stars in place, who had spoken this world and other planets and solar systems into existance. He who holds title to everything sacrificed himself, by his own choice, on a cross, naked, in front of his mother and the Apostle John. Why?Jesus died to pay the penalty of Adam's disobedience which has ben the very nature of mankind since the beginning. Why did Jesus shame himself when in a momment and with one spoken word he could extract his believers from this planet and send this sphere to it's final destruction. Why? Because, unlike most of us he was interested in wellbeing, in those with childlike faith, those whom came to him and believed that he was whom he said that he was and that only through him can we approach the throne of God.
His blood was God's price for the redemption of all people in all time. But, still God hss not taken our right to choose from us, it is our decision not a dictate from a superior that stands as testamony of that person's trust in Jesus' blood for their salvation. The price IS paid as of that moment. God's demand for payment for forgivness of sin has been paid. How? By God's own plan, not man's. The price is paid in full, Jesus holds title not only to the physical world but to every person who dwells here. God has allowed the doors of heaven open to all who believe.. If you will humble yourself, acknowledg that Jesus is whom he is, repent of your sins then within yourself (you will know whether your act of faith here is the truth) then ask Jsus to come into your very being, to become a part of your life, show signs of a change and be willing to tell others about your experience, walk by faith, not by sight then the peace that passes all understanding will become a part of you. Your motives and actions will change from that very moment. Serving Jesus will be your first priority. His presence, ever with you, will guide your footsteps and when opportunity for service comes he will make the need known to you. Whether you choose to be obedient to the encouragement of Jesus' own person is your choice.
Why will you not surrender your very person, your inner self, the real you into Jesus care by believing he died for YOU and is coming again to take YOU to ever be by his side, a much loved step-child of God. A child of the King, a joint heir with Christ, an individual who has taken God's greatest gift as your own. Why not now?
amen?
9:12
That's how I sometimes felt after some of the sermons in meeting. When Father bought me my first digital watch, I decided to time a prayer in meeting, and it was over 12 minutes.
9:50, I remember Uncle Roy would often doze off during church,I remember wondering one time; if it puts the prophet to sleep, how does the Lord handle it?
uncaduff :}
I care not that you're bored, if you read my last post 8:45 AM you received a complete picture of when, where, and how free choice originated.
You are all so full of self righteousness I want to puke. Piety runeth amuck on this site. Does anyone for one moment think that your are wrong?? Nope -- narcissism will not allow that!
"isn't it interesting, how people who free themselves to think there own thoughts, and filter out the pseudo intellectual noise and false piety around them,so often arrive at similar conclusions?"
Uncaduff, I once heard that all truth in the long run is only common sense clarified.
IITMOC
Oh, I forgot to mention that common sense isn't always common knowledge.
IITMOC
I remember Uncle Roy would often doze off during church,I remember wondering one time; if it puts the prophet to sleep, how does the Lord handle it?
uncaduff :}
CLASSIC DUFFY!!!
uncaduff, I once heard that all truth in the long run is only common sense clarified.
IITMOC
another way of expressing the same idea might be; "common sense is the comprehension of truth"
uncaduff
You are all so full of self righteousness I want to puke. Piety runeth amuck on this site. Does anyone for one moment think that your are wrong?? Nope -- narcissism will not allow that!
11/29/2007 5:55 PM
<
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Iwanttopuke,
your comment is interesting,however I would like a clarification of
your meaning of self righteousness,and piety, before I would feel comfortable applying your assessment to my own self image.
uncaduff
The term would be more like self justification and self convincing that I didn't actually really give up the saving principles of the gospel to go after the things I wanted. Oh the agony of one who wakes up in the morning of grace and finds out they are on the Father's left hand!! Get thee hence U. Duff I never knew thee!!
well sir, or madam as the case may be, I don't think anyone who knows me well would accuse me of piety, nor do I believe they would apply to me messrs. Funk & wagnall's definition of "self righteous" ie. "righteous in one's own estimation." therefore I will accept your changing terms to make your point. (although the terms seem to me to have quite different meanings). that being said, to "justify", according to the esteemed gentlemen mentioned above; 1- to show to be just,right or proper
2- to declare,or prove guiltless or blameless; exonerate or prove guiltless. now I'm going to take the liberty of assuming that you believe the essence of the "Gospel", is the justification of oneself, through right living. (with the help of God, of course)
I like to think that those are the parameters of my self justification. now as to the "self convincing....&etc.) there seems to be considerable ambiguity among mankind, as to what are the "saving principals..." so, did I give up your version, or do you even know who's version I gave up? or if I gave up any "saving principals"?
and who's version of the "saving principals" would you suggest I accept? the"things I wanted" was nothing more than the truth. what I gave up was the belief that I must approach my creator through some man, or man made organization.
oh and, do your "saving principals" qualify you to pass judgment on the rest of us?
presented
cheerfully and respectfully
uncaduff :>
I would think that a God that can't even make a man live 300 years without passing through the veil, as we were told would happen, such a God isn't capable of granting ETERNAL life, now, is he? So, why worship a prophet or a prophet's son when they represent a God who can't keep his word? Do you really think you own a monopoly on the Gospel?
the latest theme among the the elders. im not a plig prophet or a plig prophets son, but Ill prophet from the pligs till the plig prophet comes.
uncaduff
UNCADUFF :>>
I'm the individual that seems to kick up a great deal of dust on this blog because I firmly believe Paul's instruction."the Just shall live by faith." And, I believe mankind's only hope for justification is through the shed blood of Christ on Calvary's cross.
Yesterday I rebutted a man who claimed there is no God.
I told him I didn't believe in atheists. My argument makes much more sense than did his.
If I lived to be seventy, eighty, ninety or beyond I am considered to be living on borrowed time. God told David that the years of man are three score and ten (70 yrs.) I came into the knowledge of my need for Jesus saving blood when I was ten years old. Perhaps I will live to an advanced age. My life has been one of encounters with all kind of people. Saints and Sinners, Scoundrels, Thieves, Murderers, Liars etc. but, I'm thankful that I am not forced by anyone to choose those people for my associates. I will love them, I will pray for their release from whatsoever sins plague their lives, I will personally forgive them any sin that they have committed against me and surely wil atempt to tell them of the saving power of my Savior. If, at the end of my life, when I cross through death's doors and were I come to the edge of what I hoped to be heaven and found nothing there I still will have lived a much more satisying lifestyle than had I not chosen to serve Him at such an early age. Am I perfect, of course not. He who claims to be without sin is a liar and the truth is not in him.
On the other hand, when life ends and I pass through death and come face to face with my Savior and He says to me "Come in, my faithful servant my reward will be beyond immagination. When I talk of rewards I do not refer to gold, riches, things that money can buy, fancy houses or any of those things that those who remain tied to earth's system of self-justification would hope for upon reaching Heaven.
All my needs will be met. Above all I will be able to sit at the feet of my Master and converse with him about all the things that have puzzled my human mind all of my life. Why is the sky blue? How can grass appear to grow where there is heavy concentration of solid rock? Why are there three principle races of man? Why did I have the opportunity to live on earth, to witness growth, learn, share and love. I could not, nor probably would not enjoy my earthly life if all I considered was how much crime was going on, hostage situations, terrorits, why FLDS chooses to keep themselves apart from the rest of the people?
If you spend all your time around rascals who are only interested in their ultimate self promotion to become a god, and his road to success leads over the backs of young boys, worked until they start noticing the girls, of young girls being yanked out of a less than wonderful childhood, but it's the best that they have ever known, they have never had anything to compare their life to. They are only kept alive until they barely reach puberty then are hauled off to some jerk and in essence sold so that guy can build his harem, so that he then can justify himself before his prophet as being worthy for promotion into another heaven there to become the god of his own planet.
I'd rather believe in The Loving, Living God,Creator of Heaven and Earth, in the presence of the second person of God, Jesus my Savior and King, God as presented in the New Testament, and near the presence of God's third person, the Holy Spirit who, when I became willing, led me to know my need for forgivness of my sin then and now, who led my spirit to communicate with that of Jesus/God and to ask forgivness and to be granted a new life with Jesus the center of all activity. When I sin, again I do on occasion, this same Spirit of God speaks to my inner being and reminds me that the Savior died for my sin, that I am forgiven. I then experience a renewal of spirit. If my only contact with the world at large was through the mouth of an individual with his own agenda, whose greatest fear was that I would learn the truth and abandon him and his false teaching. If hs contact was preached to me night and day, if I was punished about anything about which I was curious, was told to believe only those words inspired and given through the prophet, I would fear the world. What we fear most comes from ignorance on our part.
Are the gates locked and the fences patroled at YFZ for the purpose of keeping curious people out or, as I suspect, to keep the captives in the dark. If they are not captives why not allow them to go to school? Why not allow them to meet with other people their age and both outside and inside children will find out that the main difference between the two is curiousity about the other
dust kicker, I hope I haven't given the impression that Im an atheist, thats the fartherest thing from what I believe. and I don't disbelieve in faith. I believe that faith through fear or coerceian, is no faith at all. I also believe that belief without evidence is not faith,but mere gullibility.
uncaduff
3:11 PM
In so many ways, you and I agree and are saying the same thing.
One big difference is that I don't automatically assume all the men in the FLDS are controllers and manipulators, child and sex abusers. On the contrary, most are good, honest and hard work men who are being controlled.
I also don’t condemn others who have a different religion than me as going straight to hell because of their religious affiliation.
Of course, being that I was raised Fundamentalist, my view on marriage may be a little different than yours. I have no problem with the marital relations of consenting adults, the key word being ADULTS.
Like you, I do have a problem with children, or "underage" brides.
I also do not care what another persons beliefs and religion are unless they compromise the rights of another.
I do have a problem with compelled religion and condition love and acceptance.
My simple philosophy is that the Lord is love, the devil is control.
My view is that religion is a tool. In the right hands it can be used for much good. In the wrong hands much damage and hurt.
In my view, we as a human race need to be less critical of what tool our fellow man is using as long as he is using it for good.
IITMOC
Dust kicker:
A little blood stirring debate is always welcome.
I am not atheist. I am agnostic.
And your 3:11 post was a very good post. :D
The only paragraph I have a hard time swallowing was this one:
If you spend all your time around rascals who are only interested in their ultimate self promotion to become a god, and his road to success leads over the backs of young boys, worked until they start noticing the girls, of young girls being yanked out of a less than wonderful childhood, but it's the best that they have ever known, they have never had anything to compare their life to. They are only kept alive until they barely reach puberty then are hauled off to some jerk and in essence sold so that guy can build his harem, so that he then can justify himself before his prophet as being worthy for promotion into another heaven there to become the god of his own planet.
Yes, there is a lot of that that goes on out there, but not everyone fits your description.
Then again, maybe I am being a little stubborn, and possibly a little self righteous. But I refuse to let another person tell me what to believe ever again.
And as far as I was aware, the defining difference between a person proclaiming his/her beliefs and being a self righteous hypocrite is: the self- righteous person will NOT admit when he/she might be wrong.
Well I have never made a mistake in my life. I thought I did once, but I was wrong. :)
IITMOC
bbgae,
A hypocrite is a person who is not their normal self on Sunday :)
IITMOC
IITMOC-
(Sorry, That was me who deleted the comment above. I spelled your name with an N :D )
You are right. I Shouldn't have thrown hypocrite in there. And maybe my definition of self righteous isn't right on.
But that's ok.......
:)
12/01/2007 7:32 AM
a hypocrite is one who preaches good and practices evil.
uncaduffs $.02
bbgae,
I don't know that you were wrong putting it in there, I was just adding my definition. In my experience, most self-righteous people are also hypocrites.
uncaduff,
"Do as I say, not as I do" is definitely a classic hypocrite.
IITMOC
Well
IITMOC and uncaduff
That fits Warren Jeffs to a big Texas "T"
bbgae
I would not presume to believe that that which I indicated about life inside FLDS applied to every home. I am sure that there are good men who love their wives and families and who may believe that they are in God's will.
We, on the outside live in situations and around individuals who fit the description of scoundrels etc. I think the lack of contact between husbands and wives, the fact that fathers don't even know some of their children is so very unfortunate and sad.
Is this description much different than that which we observe in society every day. Husbands and wives become unfaithful to each other, children are not taught to love and care for each other, theft is not considered a crime, after all, I deserve it, he/she have so much. What is not taken in consideration here is the fact that the reason they have anything at all is because of good management principles and teaching family and employees to respect each other.
I have observed operations that may fit into either box.
The practice of neglect and or tyrany is just as dispicable in one environment as in the other.
My answer to anyone who reports I don't want to worship with those people because they are all hypocrits is: Well, come on in then, you'll feel right at home. This place of worship is a hospital for sinners, not a retreat for saints.
I believe that it is perfectly acceptable to be hard-headed and unchangable IF you have solid biblical background and life experience from which to draw opinion.
I have, upon occasion mis-read some of the posts and thus have drawn a wrong presumption. Whenever I have discovered my error I have never failed to admit that the other party makes a good point or that I have had my mind changed by their statement of fact.
I don't claim to know everything concerning differences between "born again" Christians and those who follow Mormon.
Righteous living should be a high prioriity, practiced because the love of Christ influences the individual to practice truth and goodness as a testamony of Jesus abiding within their person.
If I do right let the Lord be praised. If I did wrong may the Lord forgive my error. He promised he would forgive and I believe Him.
1:21-
I do not feel you did anything you need to ask forgiveness for.
Outside opinions are good because the give a different perspective than our own and are food for thought. (Even if they are met with opposition at first!)
I do not presume to know everything either. But in all honesty, I like your description of "born again Christians".
I know I can come off a bit too harsh when I am defending something or someone, and I apologize if I may have offended you.
IITOMC-
I wasn't offended by your comments. I took them as friendly teasing. :)
1:21 PM
If someone does not want to come to church because "there are just a bunch of hypocrites down there" just tell them to come on down, there is always room for one more! :)
And if you think about it, if a hypocrite stands between you and the lord, apparently that hypocrite is a little closer than you are. :)
bbgae, I'm glad you didn't take it the wrong way.
IITMOC
lol! careful IITMOC, you make being a hypocrite sound almost inviting... :P
shinto, I don't know how inviting hypocrisy is, but it seems to be real popular.
uncaduff
uncle duff does vegas sorry I can't put that kind of pictures on here I can send them to anyone who wants them if you are over 18
Does that change the validity of uncaduff's arguments? I think not.
'truth is truth, where e'er found', be it on heathen or Vegas ground.
Now be nice!
anon 12:10, im over 18, send me a picture. I want to see what I missed.
... or I want to see how well you do at photo shop.
uncaduff
Anonymous said...
dust kicker, I hope I haven't given the impression that Im an atheist, thats the fartherest thing from what I believe. and I don't disbelieve in faith. I believe that faith through fear or coerceian, is no faith at all. I also believe that belief without evidence is not faith,but mere gullibility.
uncaduff 11/30/2007 3:42 PM
Street's Reply: Perfect holiness in the fear of God (2 Cr. 7:11).
Submit yourselves to one another in the fear of God (Eph. 5:21).
Howbout a smilie face here. Where's everybutty's smilies?
Is that feature rich? What's the hitch? How do we do it? What a bit..
Anonymous said...
4:12 PM
In so many ways, you and I agree and are saying the same thing.
One big difference is that I don't automatically assume all the men in the FLDS are controllers and manipulators, child and sex abusers. On the contrary, most are good, honest and hard work men who are being controlled.
"Control thy feeling, O my Brother"
The canon scripture speaks well of control or dominion, if it is strict and righteous dominion, according to the Word of God.
The dominion of the Prophet Warren has been most strict and in accordance to the strictness of God's word. Thus, shall his dominion extend forever, to all eternity.
Anonymous said...
Well I have never made a mistake in my life. I thought I did once, but I was wrong. :)
IITMOC 11/30/2007 6:26 PM
Street's Reply: So right, and I would repent if I had any sins to repent of. Therefore, I feel to repent. I am the most wicked man on earth. If the Prophet can say that, it is doubly true of me, and infinately so of every living being. The Lord commands confession of our weaknesses, and there is one man who obeys the Lord, no matter what.
Anonymous said...
a hypocrite is one who preaches good and practices evil.
uncaduffs $.02 12/01/2007 8:45 AM
Street's Reply: A hypo-crite is one who preaches for doctrine the commandments of men, saying what the law is, even creating new laws against the righteous, in direct opposition to the Law:
The law: Bring forth thy first fruits (at puberty): (Ex.22:29)
The best is the first: "Take of the best fruits in the land in your vessels (bodies): (Gen. 43:11)
Ye shall know them by their fruits (Mt.7:20).
The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof (Mt. 21:43)...not killing the fruit, the seed, even innocent children by the millions, in the name of the law ("pro-choice").
1. hypocrite - a person who professes beliefs and opinions that he or she does not hold in order to conceal his or her real feelings or motives
dissembler, dissimulator, phoney, phony, pretender
beguiler, cheater, deceiver, trickster, slicker, cheat - someone who leads you to believe something that is not true
charmer, smoothie, smoothy, sweet talker - someone with an assured and ingratiating manner
Tartufe, Tartuffe - a hypocrite who pretends to religious piety (after the protagonist in a play by Moliere)whited sepulcher, whited sepulchre - a person who is inwardly evil but outwardly professes to be virtuous.
CLASSIC EXAMPLE OF OUR MEDIA-POLITICIANS, to deceive and malign according to popular sentiment and what the polls are showing.
Whoever votes for any of them joins their fate.
Oh, that last was in reply to:
shinto_priestess said...
lol! careful IITMOC, you make being a hypocrite sound almost inviting... :P
12/02/2007 9:40 PM
Great! I'm very excited! OTS is back. It's interesting to be able to read posts by someone with a mental illness. Someone with a mental illness that always seems so ANGRY and never EVER tries to understand anyone else's point of view.
I would be amazed with all the quoting out of a ficticious book by such a person, but an autistic savant would have no issues doing such a thing. They would know their favorite book cover to cover. But at the same time never really knowing what they mean.
Look at Rain Man. He could tell you "Tom Smith's" phone number in a second, but never even knows who Tom Smith is. Just something he memorized out of the phone book.
Someone with a mental illness that always seems so ANGRY and never EVER tries to understand anyone else's point of view.
12/17/2007 9:01 AM
REPLY: Correct: "I the Lord do not look upon sin with the least degree of allowance". Never, NO NEVER.
Go to your Da Da to get your allowance, while the ANGER of the Lord fills the earth.
Hey! Maybe they can concentrate on Steven H. Tucker and his reign of terror. That guy excommunicated over 25 families putting membership from almost 1000 down to less than 200. You wanna talk about mismanaged churches...
Then his OWN DAD left the church out of disgust and having so many sons that were excommunicated.
Now Steven H. Tucker has changed his last name to "Kingston" because his mother's maiden name was Kingston. That's the same group in Bountiful and Salt Lake City... the same place that the ULDS are.
Maybe Utah can concentrate on the Kingston group too...
Wow, was you able to digest my post in as little as THREE WEEKS! Well, come on now, you're not getting all your enzymns. Just jiving you.
Mismanaged Churches: Ahh yes, your point is well taken. "For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, and a man's foes shall be they of his own household" (Mt.10:34).
I guess Christ "mismanages" the church, hey? You seem to be saying that the FLDS is true after all, for if it casts out many as chaff, it follows the Lord, the husbandman and grower of the wheat.
Your observations inspire us. The state or the winds will beat on every house, to see who will be able to stand, "for they wield not the sword in vain" (Romans 13:4).
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