FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs may be serving life in prison, but his followers continue with their work on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas where the group's white limestone Temple towers over the town they are building. Polygamy, the practice of plural marriage, appears to be alive and well in the Lone Star State, despite laws to the contrary.
Wednesday, July 25, 2007
Subpoenas issued?
There is a rumor afloat that 80 subpoenas have been issued for warren's trial but those subpoenaed have all disappeared. Can anyone verify or put this to rest?
49 comments:
Anonymous
said...
How did the names of these folks get out in the first place so they could disappear, if this is even true.
It seems like people from Colorado City would look at the trouble that Warren has put them in and if God does love only then Warren turns around and teaches to only love the people that do what he says. It is nonsense! He has mental problems!!! Wake up Colorado City Residents!!!
Sorry if I am blunt, 6:34, but this "living by inspiration" thing is so easy to get perverted into "lying to myself." I've been FLDS, and know how easy it is to lie to ones self to justify what you know ain't so--to justify a man dying who we were told would be the last one and there would be non other--to justify a man whose witness to any supposed ordination was two wives tales, not a proper priesthood recording with dates and those officiating, etc.--to justify a man who married his father's wives, who other "prophets" declared was against the laws of priesthood and one of the most abominable things a person can do.
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." Mark Twain
6:47, Mark Twain was a Gentile,don't you know how the "Profit"(sic) has striven to shield the faithful from such deception?
6:34, "This is your Captain speaking,welcome to the friendly sky's of Warren Airlines,please do not be alarmed at disturbing sights sounds smells etc.you will now fasten your seat belts,blindfolds,ear protection and handcuffs, this is for your own protection and piece of mind.have a nice day."
I think the "faithful" FLDS and Warren Jeffs are pretty smug in thinking they are going to survive the "destructions" and help Jesus build Zion or New Jersulem.
I don't think God, Jesus needs our measley efforts to help build anything other introducing God salvation. Then it is up to the individual believing and accepting the "gift".
Jesus said in John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." King James Version
2 In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. Inspired Version of Bible
Don't listen to those miserable apostates who are telling you to get off before the F/A closes the door. They are the ones that committed arson on this airplane, you know.
6:47, it is easy to justify everything you mentioned. It was taught "Warren and his Father are one." Uncle Rulon is still the last one because Warren and his father are one. Warren doesn't need an ordination; he is using his father's ordination (he is one with his father). He can marry his father's wives by the same reasoning (and even have affairs before his father died), and it is OK, because it was his father's doing.
So...I am wondering how is it possible for a judge to go after someone's assets in the Musser case. I mean its understandable to help the man find his kid but legally how do they justify allowing them to go after all these 3rd party assets.
Shouldnt the wife be charged with kidnapping and a traditional kidnapping case be started. I think its scarey when we have judges doing things like this.
It reminds me of the patriot act its the kind of thinking that the end justifys the means...but we lose alot of personal freedom...can someone enlighten me or am I missing it??
Perhaps furnace should have used "rationalize" instead of justify. Break that word apart and what do you get... rational lies. If you want to believe something badly enough, even the most impossible and improbable things can be made "rational" in your own mind.
8:32, It is the difference between criminal and civil suits. Look up the differences.
Sadly, there seems to be a major lack of understanding in the FLDS of the Judicial system this country uses, and I am not an expert on this subject nor do I claim to be. Yes, it is far from perfect and abuses do happen. However, we are still accountable to it and the laws it is here to uphold. We can not ignore it and think that it will ignore us. It is as laughable as when a small child thinks that by covering its eyes and can’t see you, that you are no longer there.
Just look at what happened to the UEP Trust when the leadership here thumbed their noses at the charges the State brought against them. Whether the State had a case or not, by ignoring the charges and avoiding court appearances, the result of such action was a default judgement. That is the way the law works. Those who are not happy with the outcome (Wisan in charge, etc) have no one to blame but the actions of the leaders. Or is it possible the outcome would have been the same, but the leaders didn’t want their past actions known. It does give them a way to save face by saying that the UEP was “stolen” and their own actions are not published to the world in a public court case.
Ignorance of the law will never change the law or the outcome of it. Ignorance of the law will generate sympathy from those who don’t know any better.
As long as we are US citizens, we are accountable to the laws of this Country. Even Joseph Smith agreed with that in the Doctrine & Covenants. “Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land." (D&C sec58 v21)
Avoiding answering to the law is not keeping the law and does have consequences.
Maybe they should go after Lyle Jeffs for kidnapping a woman and her child.
Thank God we have the Patriot Act.
FLDS would have to bend to Islam Extremeist or die.
How much personal freedom have actually you lost today?
Do you live in fear of losing your family, job or church because you follow a prophet who cannot forgive? Who also perceives he is doing "God Will" by demanding correction by kicking out a young man for slipping under pressure of serving him.
If this is the case you gave up "your" freedom yourself.
The Judge understands what is important to Warren.
What property?Whose money?Warren has no presonal property,No money exept what is tithed by the Flds rank and file,Do you think Warren cares if they lose?
I just heard the rumor there was a whole rush of young men kicked out of town. They were told not to talk about it to anyone- it is between the 'prophet' and them and therefore no one's business. They were told they could not move anywhere in Utah or the Vegas area.
Hmmmm.... Sounds like someone doesn't want publicity on this one.
What is the source of the subpoenas? Is it the State of Utah?
I do remember when the FBI showed up at Saturday work meeting, they had a list of men they were going to subpoena (not sure how many, but around 30 sticks in my mind). Anyway, this was before Warren was in custody and they were using the subpoenas to try and bring men before a grand jury to get information to locate him. There were a lot of men at that time who became very hard to find.
I have not heard of 80 subpoenas from the State of Utah being issued and the men unavailable, but it also wouldn't surprise me. There are a lot of men who are “on missions” which can mean many different things. I do know of some men who I am close to who are on “mission” and stated that they can’t be seen in town or found because it would jeopardize the life of the prophet. When ever they do come into town, it is very quiet and often in disguise.
Is it possible to contact the Utah Attorney General and find out if they subpoenaed a bunch of men who they can’t seem to locate?
bbgae,
Where did you hear that? There have been a few I was aware of lately being asked out, but I'm not aware of a "whole rush" of them. Also, the ones I can think of are in the Utah, LV area. I also would be interested in the truth of it.
Clueless, I'm the Anon 4:53 poster. Unfortunately I wasn't logged in when I hit the submit link.
TMUF posted on the Sam Fischer thread and claims to be "in." Therefore s/he might know something about the issue BBGAE brought up.
On the other hand, IITMOC is in the same position ("in") and has given us (the rest of us who are clueless) his perspective. Thanks for that, IITMOC.
BBGAE, like Uncaduff and IITMOC, I'm also interested in the reliability of your source. Could the "whole rush" be related to the 80 subpoenas FTTC is asking about?
Intesting about jeapordizing the life of the prophet if men were seen in town. Before Warren was wanted by the FBI, I was instructed, among other things, on a silly rock cutting saw that "I was not to speculate where it was going or what it would be used for... If even one word gets out about this computer controlled saw, our prophet's life will be in danger... This is training for how things will be in Zion." I wonder why they have to abandon their families to protect the prophet.
It is because he puts them in the position of "abandon the prophet to protect your lives" as the only other option.
Hopefully some of them will make that choice.
One problem people have with this is they can't fathom the evil. It's always unreal to them, right up until it's time to have their own life ruined, and then it's too late.
isn't it ironic,with all the lip service about "the Kingdom of God,work of the lord,worship the lord" etc. that in order to rule, these charlatans have to destroy the faith of there followers, in God, as a source of personal enlightenment?
I'm with you on this one Unca...I'm thinking about God about 60 some odd years ago choosing these people as his "chosen ones" and about what a freaken mess they've made of the whole deal since then. I'm thinking right now, God's sorta feeling like Homer Simpson..."DOH!"
"Did you happen to see the Simpson's movie lately, stg?"
nope, I'll have to wait until it comes out on cable. I used to the take my kids to all of the latest movies but now since they've both become teenagers they wouldn't be caught dead in a movie theater with Dad!
must admit watching all the FLDS antics was the best show in town over the last few years that's is until warren got busted now things have gotten boring! (just like the state of Utah wants it to be)
I heard the rumor from someone who is not in but is living in the area and tries to keep abreast of what is going on. As I stated it is only a rumor. However it is interesting how many rumors have turned out to be true even after someone who is in has sworn they are not. Since there has not been any substantiating posts here it appears that the information was incorrect.
Here I am, I don't come around very often. I am not aware of a rush of young men being asked out or of 80 subpoenas being issued either. However many times I find out months later of the truth of 'rumors' I had heard and passed off as completely unreal. Almost nothing is surprising anymore.
I have to wonder how many more "surprises" it will take before more of the "faithful" realize the "Emperor hasn't got any clothes on." (to use the theme from a fable). This can be applied both literally and figuratively.
How many more young people will be sent away because "they can't see the truth" when it is really the parents that are not seeing clearly, or are in denial about what they do see because of their “loyalty.” It is an FLDS mantra “loyalty is life” or “loyalty to Priesthood is life.”
The person or group that expects loyalty to the point you are dishonest in order to “protect” them will in turn be dishonest to you. If loyalty is more important than integrity, it is because someone wants to control, not lead.
If one ever puts loyalty ahead of integrity, they will end up with neither.
Hi all, I'm back. I learned about possibly what you were asking about. There are around 200 warrants for arrests issued in this area. Many of these are from people who live here or are passing through, that got a ticket and did not pay it, or never showed up for court date, or some other reason. I am not sure if it includes the whole county; possibly both counties.
49 comments:
How did the names of these folks get out in the first place so they could disappear, if this is even true.
80 people that is alot.
Could some non-anonymous person start a thread about the hearings last weekend?
Ever heard of "Inspired from Above"?
Oh! you dear souls, don't you know by now that the Lord is in control, and all he has to do is inspire a person to go, and He/She is gone?
Those who are truly in tune with the Prophet, walk by inspiration all the time. That is how we live.
6:34 p.m.
Pretty funny stuff.
But I believe the inspiration is from below.....
Yes....where was the prophets inspiration when he decided to run from the law and cause all this mess to begin with.
A little inspiration would have been really nice.
With the new charges brought against Warren last Tuesday and Friday it looks like the LAW is in control instead of the LORD.
That is how WE live.
Perverts stay in Purgatory!
Consider Marcus Aurelius, Meditations.
could the "i" in iphone stand for inspiration?
uncaduff
It seems like people from Colorado City would look at the trouble that Warren has put them in and if God does love only then Warren turns around and teaches to only love the people that do what he says. It is nonsense! He has mental problems!!! Wake up Colorado City Residents!!!
Sorry if I am blunt, 6:34, but this "living by inspiration" thing is so easy to get perverted into "lying to myself." I've been FLDS, and know how easy it is to lie to ones self to justify what you know ain't so--to justify a man dying who we were told would be the last one and there would be non other--to justify a man whose witness to any supposed ordination was two wives tales, not a proper priesthood recording with dates and those officiating, etc.--to justify a man who married his father's wives, who other "prophets" declared was against the laws of priesthood and one of the most abominable things a person can do.
"Faith is believing what you know ain't so." Mark Twain
8:58
I think the Lord is in control of the law as far as warren goes
But I believe the inspiration is from below.....
ah..... you mean purgatory,...
right?
6:47, Mark Twain was a Gentile,don't you know how the "Profit"(sic) has striven to shield the faithful from such deception?
6:34, "This is your Captain speaking,welcome to the friendly sky's of Warren Airlines,please do not be alarmed at disturbing sights sounds smells etc.you will now fasten your seat belts,blindfolds,ear protection and handcuffs, this is for your own protection and piece of mind.have a nice day."
uncaduff.:)
I think the "faithful" FLDS and Warren Jeffs are pretty smug in thinking they are going to survive the "destructions" and help
Jesus build Zion or New Jersulem.
I don't think God, Jesus needs our measley efforts to help build anything other introducing God salvation. Then it is up to the individual believing and accepting the "gift".
Jesus said in John 14:2 "In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you." King James Version
2 In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Inspired Version of Bible
Don't listen to those miserable apostates who are telling you to get off before the F/A closes the door. They are the ones that committed arson on this airplane, you know.
arson? apostates? hell we were thrown overboard in flight, for reporting a suspicious package!
Who ever invented the term apostate?
I would call you "freedom fighters"
or people who can think for themselves.
both are a tyrant's worst nightmare.
6:47, it is easy to justify everything you mentioned. It was taught "Warren and his Father are one." Uncle Rulon is still the last one because Warren and his father are one. Warren doesn't need an ordination; he is using his father's ordination (he is one with his father). He can marry his father's wives by the same reasoning (and even have affairs before his father died), and it is OK, because it was his father's doing.
See how these objections are to justify?
Oops, that last sentence should say "See how EASY these objections are to justify?"
furnace. its imposable to justify an injustice,but lies are what come easy.
uncaduff
So...I am wondering how is it possible for a judge to go after someone's assets in the Musser case. I mean its understandable to help the man find his kid but legally how do they justify allowing them to go after all these 3rd party assets.
Shouldnt the wife be charged with kidnapping and a traditional kidnapping case be started. I think its scarey when we have judges doing things like this.
It reminds me of the patriot act its the kind of thinking that the end justifys the means...but we lose alot of personal freedom...can someone enlighten me or am I missing it??
unca,
Perhaps furnace should have used "rationalize" instead of justify. Break that word apart and what do you get... rational lies. If you want to believe something badly enough, even the most impossible and improbable things can be made "rational" in your own mind.
8:32,
It is the difference between criminal and civil suits. Look up the differences.
Sadly, there seems to be a major lack of understanding in the FLDS of the Judicial system this country uses, and I am not an expert on this subject nor do I claim to be. Yes, it is far from perfect and abuses do happen. However, we are still accountable to it and the laws it is here to uphold. We can not ignore it and think that it will ignore us. It is as laughable as when a small child thinks that by covering its eyes and can’t see you, that you are no longer there.
Just look at what happened to the UEP Trust when the leadership here thumbed their noses at the charges the State brought against them. Whether the State had a case or not, by ignoring the charges and avoiding court appearances, the result of such action was a default judgement. That is the way the law works. Those who are not happy with the outcome (Wisan in charge, etc) have no one to blame but the actions of the leaders. Or is it possible the outcome would have been the same, but the leaders didn’t want their past actions known. It does give them a way to save face by saying that the UEP was “stolen” and their own actions are not published to the world in a public court case.
Ignorance of the law will never change the law or the outcome of it. Ignorance of the law will generate sympathy from those who don’t know any better.
As long as we are US citizens, we are accountable to the laws of this Country. Even Joseph Smith agreed with that in the Doctrine & Covenants. “Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land." (D&C sec58 v21)
Avoiding answering to the law is not keeping the law and does have consequences.
IITMOC
And living under Warren regime is freedom?
Maybe they should go after Lyle Jeffs for kidnapping a woman and her child.
Thank God we have the Patriot Act.
FLDS would have to bend to Islam Extremeist or die.
How much personal freedom have actually you lost today?
Do you live in fear of losing your family, job or church because you follow a prophet who cannot forgive? Who also perceives he is doing "God Will" by demanding correction by kicking out a young man for slipping under pressure of serving him.
If this is the case you gave up "your" freedom yourself.
The Judge understands what is important to Warren.
His money and property.
As for third parties. Watch and wait.
What property?Whose money?Warren has no presonal property,No money exept what is tithed by the Flds rank and file,Do you think Warren cares if they lose?
It is sad that the faithful followers are dumping their hard-earned money down a rat hole to protect Warren the Rat.
I just heard the rumor there was a whole rush of young men kicked out of town. They were told not to talk about it to anyone- it is between the 'prophet' and them and therefore no one's business. They were told they could not move anywhere in Utah or the Vegas area.
Hmmmm.... Sounds like someone doesn't want publicity on this one.
bbgae, are you confident in your source? Id like to know more also.
ucaduff
Any chance Tmuf might know something about "a whole rush of young men kicked out of town?"
BTW, do the letters Tmuf stand for something?
Just curious about both of those questions.
HUH?
Where did Tmuf come from? I can't follow your train of thought because I can't find a Tmuf on this thread.
signed,
Clueless
fttc,
What is the source of the subpoenas? Is it the State of Utah?
I do remember when the FBI showed up at Saturday work meeting, they had a list of men they were going to subpoena (not sure how many, but around 30 sticks in my mind). Anyway, this was before Warren was in custody and they were using the subpoenas to try and bring men before a grand jury to get information to locate him. There were a lot of men at that time who became very hard to find.
I have not heard of 80 subpoenas from the State of Utah being issued and the men unavailable, but it also wouldn't surprise me. There are a lot of men who are “on missions” which can mean many different things. I do know of some men who I am close to who are on “mission” and stated that they can’t be seen in town or found because it would jeopardize the life of the prophet. When ever they do come into town, it is very quiet and often in disguise.
Is it possible to contact the Utah Attorney General and find out if they subpoenaed a bunch of men who they can’t seem to locate?
bbgae,
Where did you hear that? There have been a few I was aware of lately being asked out, but I'm not aware of a "whole rush" of them. Also, the ones I can think of are in the Utah, LV area. I also would be interested in the truth of it.
IITMOC
Clueless,
I'm the Anon 4:53 poster. Unfortunately I wasn't logged in when I hit the submit link.
TMUF posted on the Sam Fischer thread and claims to be "in." Therefore s/he might know something about the issue BBGAE brought up.
On the other hand, IITMOC is in the same position ("in") and has given us (the rest of us who are clueless) his perspective. Thanks for that, IITMOC.
BBGAE, like Uncaduff and IITMOC, I'm also interested in the reliability of your source. Could the "whole rush" be related to the 80 subpoenas FTTC is asking about?
Intesting about jeapordizing the life of the prophet if men were seen in town. Before Warren was wanted by the FBI, I was instructed, among other things, on a silly rock cutting saw that "I was not to speculate where it was going or what it would be used for... If even one word gets out about this computer controlled saw, our prophet's life will be in danger... This is training for how things will be in Zion." I wonder why they have to abandon their families to protect the prophet.
It is because he puts them in the position of "abandon the prophet to protect your lives" as the only other option.
Hopefully some of them will make that choice.
One problem people have with this is they can't fathom the evil. It's always unreal to them, right up until it's time to have their own life ruined, and then it's too late.
isn't it ironic,with all the lip service about "the Kingdom of God,work of the lord,worship the lord" etc. that in order to rule, these charlatans have to destroy the faith of there followers, in God, as a source of personal enlightenment?
uncaduff
unca,
They can't afford to have distractions like a seperate relationship with God that isn't through their "authority."
IITMOC
I'm with you on this one Unca...I'm thinking about God about 60 some odd years ago choosing these people as his "chosen ones" and about what a freaken mess they've made of the whole deal since then. I'm thinking right now, God's sorta feeling like Homer Simpson..."DOH!"
keep sweet eldorado
stg
Did you happen to see the Simpson's movie lately, stg?
"Did you happen to see the Simpson's movie lately, stg?"
nope, I'll have to wait until it comes out on cable.
I used to the take my kids to all of the latest movies
but now since they've both become teenagers
they wouldn't be caught dead in a movie theater with Dad!
must admit
watching all the FLDS antics
was the best show in town over the last few years
that's is until warren got busted
now things have gotten boring!
(just like the state of Utah wants it to be)
keep sweet eldorado
stg
IITMOC and others
I heard the rumor from someone who is not in but is living in the area and tries to keep abreast of what is going on. As I stated it is only a rumor. However it is interesting how many rumors have turned out to be true even after someone who is in has sworn they are not. Since there has not been any substantiating posts here it appears that the information was incorrect.
fttc-
Which rumor are you referring to?
The one on the thread title.
Here I am, I don't come around very often.
I am not aware of a rush of young men being asked out or of 80 subpoenas being issued either. However many times I find out months later of the truth of 'rumors' I had heard and passed off as completely unreal.
Almost nothing is surprising anymore.
Tmuf
I have to wonder how many more "surprises" it will take before more of the "faithful" realize the "Emperor hasn't got any clothes on." (to use the theme from a fable). This can be applied both literally and figuratively.
How many more young people will be sent away because "they can't see the truth" when it is really the parents that are not seeing clearly, or are in denial about what they do see because of their “loyalty.” It is an FLDS mantra “loyalty is life” or “loyalty to Priesthood is life.”
The person or group that expects loyalty to the point you are dishonest in order to “protect” them will in turn be dishonest to you. If loyalty is more important than integrity, it is because someone wants to control, not lead.
If one ever puts loyalty ahead of integrity, they will end up with neither.
IITMOC
My parents, my church and my school all taught me to revere authority.
life has taught me to question it.
uncaduff
Boy Uncaduff,
That really was a profound thing to say!
Wow, IITMOC. Once again, an excellent post.
Like your quote, Uncaduff.
Hi all, I'm back.
I learned about possibly what you were asking about. There are around 200 warrants for arrests issued in this area. Many of these are from people who live here or are passing through, that got a ticket and did not pay it, or never showed up for court date, or some other reason. I am not sure if it includes the whole county; possibly both counties.
Tmuf
Warren will be issuing warrents.
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