Sunday, May 20, 2007

Sam Fischer Moving to Lockney, TX

Since bbgae asked about Sam Fischer moving his business (and family) to Lockney, Texas (located in the Panhandle), I thought it might be best to discuss it in it's own thread. So far it's been referred to in the "Mother's Day" and "Maybe Warren's Malady..." threads.

If you want to follow this story (or any FLDS story) the HOPE Organization does an excellent job of posting on their website every news story that goes to press.
http://thehopeorg.org/news.html

98 comments:

feralfem said...

I don't know Sam or his family at all, but it sure seems to be a major departure from the FLDS norm for him to be as disclosing as he is let alone his commitment to hire non-FLDS folks in his furniture business. What's up with that?

Anonymous said...

WEll I think its kinda strange too, but he might just be telling people what they want to hear. Just my opinion.

Anonymous said...

Here's what many in Texas feel about the FLDS activities in Eldorado, TX & Lockney, TX.

This country may have been founded on religious principles, but it runs on secular law. Those who feel constrained by that fact are free to leave."

Read the rest of article: The Texas Veiwpoint

Anonymous said...

Who cares?

Anonymous said...

I care!

Anonymous said...

So tell us about your personal life here on the public blog then!

feralfem said...

9:27,
Even better would be if YOU do what your asking others. You know, like set a good example here and tell us about YOUR personal life. We'd be interested! Really! (I'm not being sarcastic here.)

Then at the end of your post, give yourself a little signature - something like this:

SAGE (= Setting A Good Example)

bbgae said...

I would be interested too, Anon 9:27.

I don't know Sam's family very well but I used to go to their fabric store to buy cloth for dresses all the time.

I question whether he is thinking on his own or being directed on this move. I'm hoping it's a show of individual thinking, but we'll see.

Have a good holiday, all! :)

Anonymous said...

This blog is dieing a slow lingering death. RIP Pull the plug its over

ATAR_i said...

maybe we're all just trying to pretend we aren't here so you'll go away.

bbgae said...

Or, we could also just keep posting as usual ignoring every one of your posts as though they never existed.

Then your lovely plan of getting rid of us would backfire. Hmmmm....

Anonymous said...

You could start by saying something interesting.

Anonymous said...

Anon 7:13
I dont know why you are so worried about the blog being stopped. Stop looking at it and you wont have to worry!! :0 :)

Anonymous said...

anon 6;01,why should we provide all the entertainment? if you don't have anything to contribute yourself,then quit yer snivilin!

uncaduff.

Anonymous said...

A slow lingering blog death. RIP

ATAR_i said...

well, I don't know about y'all - but I'm totally waiting for the start of Big Love - just wish I had hbo or showtime, whatever channel it's on.

Anonymous said...

I sounds like someone wants the blog to go "repent from a distance".

bbgae said...

Oh, yes. I'm waitibng for Big Love, too.

feralfem said...

Here's something probably related to Sam Fischer's move to Texas.
{ http://www.foxnews.com/hannitysamerica/index.html# }

Sunday, June 10th, Hannity's America will be including a segment about "polygamy in the Lone Star state."

I have two requests:

1. Since I don't have cable, could those of you who do (have cable) watch this program Sunday night (June 10th) and post your thoughts and observations?

2. Look lower on that web page and you'll see a couple of videos featuring Flora Jessop. What do you think of some of the things she says?

Of particular interest is her account of two girls who (presumably) tried to escape CC and their bodies were found tied together in a nearby lake the next day. This apparently happened some years ago when she (Flora) was a little girl.

Was there some kind of coverup?
Who were these girls?

Anonymous said...

boy, that story gets better every time I hear it. both these girls were my sisters in law, they never had any desire to escape. they drowned in a swimming accident at the south reservoir. I helped find, and remove them from the water. they WERE NOT tied together, they were several yards apart when we found them. there younger sister, Ruby, was with them, and went for help. people have tried to make something out this incident so many times, when everyone, at the time, knew what happened, its no wonder the folks at CC don't believe anything they hear in the news.

uncaduff

feralfem said...

Uncaduff,

Thank you!

You were there. You saw and participated in the real story. I, for one, sure appreciate your clearing that up.

And I sure have to agree with you about believing the news.

Anonymous said...

Especially don't ever believe the latest flora drama. She has zero credibility. If her lips are moving.....

ATAR_i said...

Wow, you wouldn't even know it's the same story.

A couple things

Firstly, Flora is compelling, whatever the truth of the content, she's compelling.

She's also quite thin, has she always been that thin, or am I just noticing it.

I'd say she comes off much better in the short documentary/diary style videos. She seems upbrupt an austere in the interview, and not as compelling or personal.

bbgae said...

Thankyou, Feralfem for the video clip.

I heard of the two girls who drown when I was a child. The way it was told to me, they just went swimming. This tragedy was used as an example by worried parrents to the young people to not go swimming in the reseviors.(Thanks for clearing up the rumor, Uncaduff!)

Yes, there are many people in C.C. who get away with things they never should have, but we all know people there do not get away with murder.
Also on that note, the people who get caught committing incest ARE NOT patted on the back and sent back home. They get turned over to the law and kicked out of town. They loose their families. Top on my list of examples: Jack Cooke, and Daniel Barlow jr.

IMHO-I agree that Flora is compelling. She really is trying to do good and does do alot of good. She was hurt and she just wants to see others avoid what she endured. I respect what she is trying to do.

However, I know two people she said she could help, tried to help, and did not help AT ALL. And I can assure you it wasn't because they were unwilling to go the distance, despite what she says about them.

Flora is not THE saviour of Colorado City. Some of us left without her help, and we are doing just fine.

(The trick is to be 'normal'- thus committing an unpardonable sin- and you will then be ASKED to leave. They won't chase you down.)

And, no. I'm not saying we should all go out and start sinning.

Anonymous said...

You know there are alot of people that have been hurt like Flora has, but they go on with thier lives and make the best of everything. You dont have to point fingers so hard at other people and make a scene like she does. If people want to leave from there, they can.
There are many many people such as Oprah, Teri Hatcher, the list goes on, but the havent spent time feeling sorry themselves. She just loves the attention. It really is sad what happened to her and i feel bad but its done and over with, get some help and move on!

Anonymous said...

Flora is just addicted to the attention. She takes stories that have a "basis" in truth, and then senationalizes them. She should go work for the National Enquirer!

ATAR_i said...

I think my only message to Flora, given her high profile would be to make sure you objectively give factual information.

In genealogy, you might notice if you look online that you see the same family trees, if you are looking for lineage. Because you see that family tree multiple times, you might believe it, 'because everyone has the same information' - it must be correct.

However, that is why documentation is soooo important. One person, who happened to be prolific might have posted 'wrong' information, and the information was repeated over and over again - but it does not make it TRUE.

So, as an important mouthpiece, you have to realize that those sorts of errors happen - not always maliciously, but they do - a rather viral grapevine that sometimes gets it wrong, or sometimes morphs the story in the telling of it.

It's not just with Flora, it happens in every area and age group - Objective information, factfinding and documentation ARE must haves in order to be viewed seriously. The truth can be compelling enough to illicit shock value.

Anonymous said...

OK, now I'm worked up enough to leave a comment. I usually just lurk to see if I can find info about other expatriates who are coming out of the creek, but after watching the interview with Flora, I am just frosted!

She is such a LIAR!

I am her age and I left the creek about five years ago. So I heard the same stuff and grew up in the same era that she did.

She knows damned well that Myrtle and Mishie died swimming, and that they were NOT tied together, as Uncaduff confirmed.

I cannot figure out if her brain is completely disconnected from her head, because she has to know that at some point everything she says can be investigated and that her penchant for prevarication will be unveiled.

And then all the salivating, rumor-mongoring alarmist interviewers will drop her like a hot rock because they are going to come out with rotten egg all over their faces.

It's really a sad thing, because now anyone who tries to step forward to help the kids who are leaving en masse, (without Flora's help, I might add) are going to be compared to Flora and all of the rest of us are going to lose their credibility too.

She really should have stopped while she was, ahem, behind.

I might add that babies in the creek are a prized commodity and nobody, but NOBODY would consider murdering one. The reason there are so many "baby" graves is because whenever a mother had a miscarriage, she was as bereft as if she had lost a full-birth baby, and as such, she was given a funeral with a proper burial for the FETUS. This doesn't happen in other places, hence you don't have as many baby graves.

I know of one woman alone who had (if I remember the correct number) 9 miscarriages before she figured out what was causing the problem and was able to carry a baby to full term. Each and every one of those miscarriages were buried in the baby graveyard, many under the name of "Baby Jessop".

Think about it, Sean Hannity. If a parent were to murder his or her baby that the world didn't know about, would he/she BURY it in a PUBLIC graveyard? Or would the miscreant quietly dispose of the evidence in a landfill or other obscure place?

Whew. Now I feel better. I think the kids coming out of the Creek deserve help. And they also deserve to not be lied about on national TV.

I hope to God that the newscasters catch on to Flora before she spreads much more of her oily, pernicious, self-serving lies.

Frosted Female

Anonymous said...

To Frosted Female. Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
I could not have said it better myself. Where have you been for so long while Flora and others have been spewing such garbage? Please, anyone else out there who knows the truth, please speak up where it can be heard. Let's not allow these horrible lies to be continued and carried on by Flora and her cohorts. I have no sympathy for Warren Jeffs but many of those who follow him are actually very fine people who have been shamefully lied about.

Anonymous said...

frosted, you touched on an extremely important point. the most important thing we should do to help these kids that are leaving, is to get them to tell the truth. the simple truth will do far more good than the best concocted story. the whole unfortunate mess at the creek, is the result of a web of lies, woven, "here a little and there a little,lie upon lie......." the truth is what these kids,young or old,need the most, the most effective way to learn truth,is to be truthful to the best of your ability, in even in the smallest things. wow how preachy is that!

uncaduff.

Anonymous said...

Amen, uncaduff!

bbgae said...

Frosted female-
Thanks for the part about the baby grave yeard. I wrote a few lines on that subject in my orignal post, but it was deleted, and I forgot to put it in the second time.

I completely agree with you about the truth, and about helping the people who are leaving.

Anonymous said...

HURRAH!!! It's about frikkin time!! Somebody that can tell it like it is!!! I am SO DAMN TIRED of the credibility that people give Flora without checking her story out! It seems like she's gonna need to start being a little more careful! If any of those stories (lies)were about me, I'd sue her ass off!! I hope somebody does! You go, Fried Female!!

Anonymous said...

You, too Uncaduff! I have a lot of respect for you! I know that you have just as many reasons to be mad at the "stuff" that goes on at the Crick, but you are the voice of sanity on this blog. It is cool that you don't just sit and spout sewage like Flora does. I know she reads this blog, but I bet $100 bucks that she doesn't have the guts to apologize for her bulls**t lies. It takes a fer-real person to stand up and admit when you are wrong, and that sure ain't Flora, I'm bettin' my boots.

bbgae said...

Soo..
If Flora appologizes, you'll give her your boots, or $100? Or... your $100 boots?

(Forgive me for teasing.I mean no disrespect- I just couldn't help myself....)

Anonymous said...

Uncaduff, I meant to give you accolades for your ability to tell the truth, even when a "little white lie" would make your detractors look worse.

It makes people have to face the fact that when you DO say something, it will be the truth instead of something that everyone has to fish through to find the reality.

Of course, when we were growing up, we were taught that all the apostates were liars and that they could not be believed in the slightest.

Now that I read your posts, I realize that you are willing to tell the facts as they are/were, not as they would make you look better.

Thanks.

Frosted Female

Anonymous said...

I can't seem to find the clip referred to about Flora. Could omeone could tell me the date in the archives at Hannitys American and the articles title. Then again, maybe it's just as well I can't find it.

Anonymous said...

I think there is just as high a percentage of faithful that lie (Sam Barlow) as apostates (Flora). People are people, and there are honest people and truth stretchers on both sides of the fence.

Anonymous said...

The link is here:
http://www.foxnews.com/hannitysamerica/
(Copy it and paste in your browser or the window will be tiny and you can't resize it)

Just scroll down on the page and you'll run into a polygamy section with two videos of the delightful flora saga. One is a "special" little music video and the other one is her interview. Beware: you may just want to barf if you watch it.

11:06--that was just my point. The "faithful" are so busy trying to protect their lies that they have to go around calling other people liars to cover their own fannies.

FF

fttc said...

FF- I finally watched the Hannity video. I applaud your response here as well. Hannity got suckered here and even his credibility could be on the line. It would not take much of an investigation to see through what she is saying. She is an expert tear jerker. I wonder how willing her brother was to get involved. It sounded like he did not share her opinion that the authorities were trying to keep them away. Then her cover-up for that was pathetic. There are problems in CC without a doubt, but she only makes them worse. Her stretching of the truth will only serve to undermine the efforts to fix this. Uncaduff got it right about the truth in his post above.

Anonymous said...

Lockney and Sam Fischer is going to be featured on Hannity's America this weekend.

Anonymous said...

Good grief, Flora

When my mother ran over my foot, she didn't try again to get the accident done right. She felt awful about it.

Anonymous said...

I've always given Flora the benefit of the doubt in the past...can't do that on this story.

Back in the late 70's (give or take a few years) there was a TV movie made about CC. The story line went something like this...It had a young girl who fell in love with one of the young boys in town, a big no-no. He tried to get her to run away with him to Mexico, but she wouldn't go. So, the young boy took off and the young girl was found dead in the south reservoir.

The story line was very similar to Flora's story. Maybe she was hiding underneath the quilting frame and overheard her mom tell someone about the movie, and didn't stick around long enough to hear her mom say how nothing about the movie reflected reality.

Or maybe, just maybe, she made the whole thing up to get more publicity.

LTG

fttc said...

9:47

Your foot is a long way from your head. How did she miss by so far? You must have been one of those rebellious children that wouldn't hold still while you were abused. ***BIG GRIN***

Thanks LTG, doubtful benefits have their limits and Flora keeps exceeding them.

ATAR_i said...

The last time I seriously questioned Floras credibility, an emotional tidal wave hit me. Letters from Flora threatening to throw in the towel for being misunderstood, letters from supporters telling me I didn't understand.

Honestly, I think we all just want truth. But it's really hard to know when everyone sees the same circumstance differently.

Objective information is about as close as we can come to truth. How do you ascribe motivations to someone? How do you discern how and why people do things. We can guess, we can even come pretty close with anecdotal information, but we can also completely miss the target, and get it all wrong.

I think we can all agree 'the cause' the kids need a new mouthpiece, someone who doesn't slant every morsel of information with their own agenda.

Is there no one out there who can be that of you? The gauntlet has been thrown - will someone stand up, and be an objective mouthpiece?

Anonymous said...

I vote for Lord Challenge.

Here is a piece of his writing from Polyabuse site.

I'm thinking bill-boards. These people claim to love the truth. You have to give it to them, or at least something that they can't disprove as truth, but something that will make them think. Their main motivator is truth, even above polygamy or any form of marriage, they seek the truth.

What happens here and on TV is that people judge, call them backwards, etc, but that is all opinion and not truth.

Post the facts, let them decide the truth.

Example: 1 in 4 girls is sexually abused or assualted before she reaches 18. Where does this leave your family?

Example: Esteins says, "Only to the individual is a soul given." Who controls your mind?

I think that little tid-bits of truth, or fact, given to make a mind think, would possibly help.

What people tend to want is to save people. What these people want to do is save themselves. They will resist any attempt of outsiders to save them. I say, give them what they need to save themselves.

Most of these people honestly want to be good. If you can, in truth, show them that what they are doing is wrong, they will change. What you haven't been able to do, is prove them wrong. And when you have people that answer to a higher law, making lower laws to make them wrong isn't going to help.

You want to change their minds, work with higher laws.

What the US government doesn't do is recognize higher laws. How can they control people that live by them? They can't? They simply want to say, "Polygamy is illegal" and have everyone respect that, even though no one does. They just bend the law to make it suite them, e.g., lie to the wife, hide the mistress, whores don't talk, etc.

These people are begging for truth, they believe it will set them free. Give it to them. If you can't, leave 'em alone.

If you speak truth, they will listen. If your laws are based on truth, they will obey.



Personally, I've haven't seen or heard of a single person qualified to do this, but that's what I'd do.

Even if you talked to them and said, "hey, we think you have higher sexual abuse cases then the average community, but because your community is so closed, we can't get the facts.

Can we please come in and interview some children. You can watch, we just want to evaluate some of the kids." I think they would probably let you.

Problem is, they see you as the enemy. They don't trust you. But they don't just see you as enemy of their people, they see you as enemy of their faith. They don't trust you. They think you would twist the facts. They know they have abuse issues, but could you show them that it is worst then the average community? Probably not, because you don't have stats on an average community.

These are good people. Give them truth. If they deny it, or fight it, you have just cause against them.

"Show them what you want them to see."

fttc said...

Anon 7:23

You missed the boat on this one. Lord Challenge does not know of what he speaks. Truth is not a motivator with the warrenites. They had the truth before them and they chose to not accept it. They have chosen to worship a man and accept all he does as 'the truth'. They have put a king over themselves to be responsible for all their sins. Personal responsibility went out the window. As long as they are in the good graces of their king they consider themselves saved. No 'truth' outside of that realm will suffice to convince them of anything. Opposition to it will only make them stand bolder. ONly when they have suffered long enough under tyranny will they free themselves with the truth. The community has been effectively destroyed. Not from without but from within. Not from so called apostates but from so called faithful. Truth has literally been stood on its head to the point that it is unrecognizable by them. For many of them life is a balance on a thin line between insanity and reality. The sins of the parents will be answered on the heads of the children for generations to come.

Anonymous said...

I kinda have to agree with fttc on this one. It would be lovely to think that the Warrenites could know the truth when they see it. However, they have been so carefully misled and artfully deceived that they wouldn't know the truth if it bit them on the ass.

Every one of them is dealing with this huge discrepancy in their minds; logically they KNOW that a huge gap exists between what they were taught before and what Warren is doing now. But emotionally the want so bad to BELIEVE that he is the prophet--because if he is not, who is?

And if he is not, then they have to own the fact that they were led down the primrose path by him, and acknowledging you have been swindled is worse than swallowing the loss to a lot of people.

So, aside from the pride issue, if they disavow Warren, then they are left prophet-less, and having been raised all their lives under such a structure, they are rudderless.

You can see it's a delicate dance. And history shows that you can't just go in and wipe out tradition, or you have massive social problems like with the eskimos and Navajos: high suicide rates, high substance abuse problems, etc.

I think the best approach here is to just let people come to the truth themselves, because helping them out before they are ready is akin to breaking the shell before the chick is developed. You will kill them.

I tend to give humanity the benefit of the doubt. At some point, their brains WILL make a big enough fuss that their emotions will just have to take a back seat.

Anonymous said...

Pretty close anon. we need to consider, though, the fact that God hasn't abandoned these folks,and that they are learning through his plan,which consists of, simply , the experiences of this life.
theres not much we can do to help them, until they ask. I remember when I started to see a few glimmerings, and when I think back on trying to tell anyone about it, it reminds me of watching ,on TV, the folks praying at the wall at the old temple site in Jerusalem. it looks like there just banging there heads against the the rocks.

Anonymous said...

8:19

One man I know said he won't deny Warren, because if he did, he would have to deny Joseph.

Anonymous said...

Very good point, 12:05, a point I really wonder about.

If Warren is not "the one" then wouldn't the current faithful have to also deny U. Rulon, U. Roy, U. John - all the way back to Joseph Smith?

How do those who currently DO deny Warren's claim to the leadership reconcile your religion now, the religion you were brought up in and lived until U. Rulon died? He said he was the last one, and it was preached from the beginning the faithful would never be without a God-chosen leader.

I'd like to know the answer to that.

bbgae said...

Ok.
I'll go first.

But before I do, I'd just like to say I agree with fttc and Anon 8:19 in the above assment.

For me, it wasn't a blatant 'Warren is not the prophet' at first. Fear of betrayal was too strongly ingrained in me. It was more of an acceptance that some things that were going on were just not right. And these thoughts were because of my own personal (heart breaking) expierences as mentioned by 8:19. Soon, this developed into a very strong conclusion that I would do what I needed to do, to see that my children were not subjected to what I had endured. With this determination came the slow knowelege that the only way I would set my children in a place where they could controll their own destiny was to free myself.

My husband did not feel the same, yet we still agreed. He said he had never had a very strong testimony and he no longer felt like following what we had been taught. As I have mentioned in previous posts, we were planning on leaving before they asked us to go.

For me, denial of Warren as prophet was slow, but when it came, it did cause the chain reaction mentioned above. Joseph Smith was just as hard for me to question in my own mind as Warren had been. In the end, I concluded that these 'prophets' were sometimes good men with good intentions, and sometimes bad men with selfish intentions.

I am not afraid to say I do not know, and leave it at that.

Anonymous said...

bb, the more you trust directly in God, the less you will fear men.

uncaduff.

fttc said...

Anon 1:15

Where was it "preached from the beginning the faithful would never be without a God-chosen leader"?

I had no reconciliating to do in not accepting warren. The real reconciliation is in accepting him. If you take the teachings of warren and the teachings of Joseph Smith you find they do not coincide. That is the very reason I don't accept warren.

As Uncaduff said, our direct link to God is not affected by men unless we allow it to be so. When I took counsel formerly from U. Rulon it always coincided with God's word. If it did not I was under no obligation to obey it. Joseph Smith himself in his own record confesses to making mistakes. He was not perfect and when his counsel was not according to the revelations from God he said he spoke as a man and should be listened to as a man. I know of instances where U. Roy made mistakes in his teachings. He did not expect anyone to accept it just because he said it.

The analogy that if warren is wrong Joseph was wrong just doesn't hold water for me. I know there are warrenites now and there were men before him who claimed we would always have a 'prophet' to follow. I just don't know where you can find it in any of the revelations we accept as scripture. In other words it is the opinion of men that was apparently incorrect.

Anonymous said...

fttc:
How would the people at CC know when URoy was talking as a man or talking as a prophet? URoy didn’t own up publicly to the mistakes he made “as a man” when people believed he was speaking as a prophet. People forge ahead with decisions based on the false information, and then after his death his survivors lamely explain “Oh, he was speaking as a man, not a prophet”.

When he bared his testimony of Joseph Smith, was he talking as a man or prophet? When he placed my mom and dad together, was he talking as a man or prophet? When he preached of the second coming and that the faithful would move back to Jackson County, was he talking as a man or prophet?

If the people have to guess then you are not much of a leader or prophet. Someone may be a helluva good guy, smart, and caring, but not a prophet.

I guess the "prophets" will have to start repeating the same disclaimers as used car salesmen...(talking very fast)…'does not include taxes, batteries, or license, only on approved credit, prices may vary from time of advertisement, there may be a yellow dog, I kinda dozed off during the revy so maybe Jackson County isn't the right place, and man just might get to the moon without asking!’

LTG

fttc said...

I thought I was quite plain in what I said. It is the connection each of us have with our Father in Heaven that will let us know when the truth is being spoken. I have stood on this all the way through. Those of our people that have been willing to accept everything at face value are those who have been snookered by the leadership or at least feel they have been. It requires a lot of faith, study and prayer to not be led astray by other people. They may be parents, siblings, prophets or a stranger on the street. If we are unwilling to think for ourselves we deserve what we get. We all have access to the scriptures. We have been told since the days of Joseph Smith that if something does not square with the scriptures to not accept it.

Anonymous said...

How do those who currently DO deny Warren's claim to the leadership reconcile your religion now, the religion you were brought up in and lived until U. Rulon died?

That is exactly the crux of the problem. The ones who deny Warren's claim are the ones who couldn't reconcile the religion they were raised in with the one he was enforcing.

Perhaps the question should be: How do the ones who ACCEPT Warren's claim reconcile their religion with the one U. Rulon taught?

Anonymous said...

Reading Anon. 1:15's post and trying to step into his/her shoes, the answers to these questions may be what is being sought. (Conceivably, the answer to each one might be the same.)

1. Who now holds the keys of the Kingdom of God on Earth?

2. Who has the right to rule?

3. Who has the authority to seal plural wives in the new and everlasting covenant of marriage for time and all eternity?

4. Who has the authority to confer the Melchizedek Priesthood on other men?


5. How does one reconcile their life nowadays with D&C Section 132 Verses 4-7,13-21?
http://scriptures.lds.org/en/dc/132/4-7,13-21

These are questions one might ask of anyone who does believe in Fundamentalist Mormonism as Joseph Smith taught it, but does not acknowledge Warren as a true prophet.

-----
Anon. 7:50, you also pose a very good question!


So here we have questions to both sides of the Warren wall.

Anyone?

Anonymous said...

My solution after leaving was to use Occam's razor and not accept Joseph either.

Anonymous said...

I'm not saying the answer is Winston, but at www.sharethelight.com, you can see this group's reasoning.

Anonymous said...

In my opinion, giving another (hu)MAN the reigns in your life, or asking him to tell you what God wants is complete insanity.

The solution to both sides would be just go to God yourself, and ask Him what he thinks.

I'm bettin' that if you were the watcher of the playground, you wouldn't set up one of the kids over all the other kids and smite down anyone who didn't worship the first kid.

Just my guess.

bbgae said...

2;43-
Your reasoning seems sound to me. IMHO, could it not also be considered either false humility or maybe laziness to depend on another (hu)MAN to go to the Lord for us?

Anonymous said...

Ask of your God and ye shall receive……whatever you want.

I was feeling bad about working too much so I asked God if I could take a day off. I was honest and sincere in my request, and He told me “YES, BY ALL MEANS, TAKE THE DAY OFF”! Since he was so forceful in his demand that I take the day off, I had to do what he told me, so I took the day off. I’m an early riser and was up at 5:00 am on Friday morning (I’m glad he didn’t’ tell me to take Wednesday off, we had a potluck at work and the food was excellent!)

But then I had another question, “God, do you want me to watch TV all day or should I go golfing?” The answer was as loud as a clap of thunder, “MY SON, DO NOT WASTE YOUR TIME IN FRONT OF THE TELEVISION!”. So I went golfing. You don’t want to disappoint the Lord.

But during the round of golf, as much as I begged, yelled, and threatened, he wouldn’t help my putter. But he finally accepted my sacrifice as the evil club was sucked into a lake about the 15th hole.

Since I had worked up such a sweat fighting with the burden of the evil club that God had seen fit to remove from my presence, I was very thirsty. I asked God to deliver refreshments and quench my thirst. Right about that time the beer cart showed up. She was out of water, but had plenty of beer. I took that as a message straight from Heaven. And I was even more convinced that there IS A GOD IN HEAVEN ABOVE, AMEN.

Its Saturday morning and I’m sitting here with a God-given hangover. Its his small reminder not to ask for too many favors on Friday. He entertains a lot of requests and gets a little pissed off when I keep asking…Friday after Friday after Friday...but I’m a frequent customer and have one of those “Frequent Request Cards” (Its kind of like the frequent flyer miles cards that the airlines give out). I knew I shouldn't have crossed the line and asked him to accept my sacrifice putter. It takes a lot of special powers to pull a putter 50 yards across a fairway into a lake.

Ask of your God and ye shall receive….comfort, denial (ask again), acceptance, disagreement, conformity, refusal, loyalty, love, the cold shoulder, a full on embrace…basically, whatever you want.

How do you think warren, ujeffs, URoy, jt, joesmith, the pope, or pickaprophet, got so many people to believe in their brand of bs?

This is a little long winded, but that's what God wanted; I know because I asked.

LTG

Anonymous said...

Damn, LTG! You're at it again. You really should do stand-up comedy.

I wanna have a talk with the God YOU're talkin to. . .

Anonymous said...

LTG. BLASPHEMY!!, may you be cursed with a hangover next saturday .

(what golf course, was the beer lady pretty)?

uncaduff

Anonymous said...

unca: God willing, I will be ready to accept another hangover...His will be done, amen. And yes, she was easy on the eyes.

How's your brother (one of my favorite uncles)?

LTG

Anonymous said...

unca Fiz? he's jist bein unca Fiz.
he's tryin ta git me off my Duff, (pun intended) an go git some wood.I been busy with Heber's cow cooker, but thats about done, so I'll ether have to go, or find a new excuse.

uncaduff

bbgae said...

Uncaduff & LTG-
I like you guys! You are so funny!

God bless the hangover.
Amen.

Anonymous said...

I’m FLDS (with a lot of questions that have fallen of the shelf), and I have some questions and observations concerning the prophet, one man rule, etc.

"If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not, and it shall be given him." (James 1:5)

The reading of that by Joseph Smith is what started the whole Mormon religion. What I don't see is where it says you must ask the Lord's "one man" for wisdom or revelation, because according to that quote ALL men have the right of going directly to the Lord. LTG is proof positive that, his god answers his prayers :)

"I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves."

This is said to be a quote from Joseph Smith when a lawyer visited Nauvoo and wondered how he governed the people with such ease. It is interesting to note that this quote cannot be found in LDS literature until the early 1860's, but regardless of when the Church leaders began to publish it, that quote sure does seem at odds with the teachings that “the prophet has the right to dictate every aspect of your spiritual and temporal affairs.”

“And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work...” (1 Peter 1:17)
If God is no respecter of persons, how come He respects “one man” so much that he has the “right to rule” and is the “mouthpiece” of God? Does the quote not say we will each be judged for our own actions? I don’t see where it says He will respect one man so much that he is His “one judge” on Earth. He gives each of us the opportunity to judge ourselves based on our own actions

“For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward.” (D&C 58:26)

God is a God of love, not control. He loves us unconditionally no matter who we are. Our reward is the result of our own actions. Being a member of any religion and/or profession of loyalty to a man does not guarantee salvation, and willingly seeking the will of a man to guarantee your salvation seems that you are willingly wanting to be compelled.

It really comes down to this: RESPONSIBILITY. If we want to justify our actions with the words or teachings of someone else, we in essence are not willing to take responsibility for our own actions. Unfortunately, all of life is governed by principles. As ye sow, so shall ye reap. Just because you were told to plant oat seeds, you are the one responsible when you grow a crop of oats, even though you wanted a crop of wheat. The problem in the FLDS is that we think we will be justified before the Lord with whatever “crop” we are told to plant by the leader. We feel that we will be guaranteed it is what the Lord wants because the “one man” told us to plant it, thus removing the responsibility from ourselves. The responsible course would be to search out what “crop” you want to have grown during your life, search out the principles that govern the growing of that kind of crop, and plant the seeds in the right season for that sort of crop.

I hope this made at least some sense and can stir some thoughts and conversation.

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

Not Fiz, Lee.

LTG

Anonymous said...

Oh, yeah, unca Boobas. well last I heard, he was doing pretty good,Humpy says he's happy and feeling better. sounds like he's getting to know his apostate kids, and they aint so bad after all.

uncaduff

bbgae said...

IITMOC-
Excellent, excellent post (as always). :)

Anonymous said...

What does IITMOC stand for? (The acronym, not the person.)

Anonymous said...

IITMOC = Integrity In The Moment Of Choice

It is my basic mission. We are always making decisions, I want mine to be made with and through integrity, not what is popular or easy. It means I can look in the mirror at the end of the day and feel good about the person I see looking back.

IITMOC

bbgae said...

Thank you for explaining that, IITMOC.

I asked you the same thing once when I first started posting, and you never answered.

I like the acronym. And the mission. :)

Anonymous said...

In reference to Anonymous 6:49pm,
In speaking of the “loyalty” to the priesthood, to the FLDS that means, what ever the prophet says is right. Although loyalty in and of itself is an admirable trait, this kind of loyalty is based in weakness, fear, and in the lack of faith and willingness to be held acountable. It is one, which is so rigid that Joseph Smith saw fit to label it “slavery in the extreme”.

“We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark, that they would do anything they were told to do by those who presided over them, (even) even if they knew it was wrong: but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God, who seeks for the redemption of his fellows, would despise the idea of seeing another become his slave, who had an equal right with himself to the favour of God; he would rather see him stand by his side, a sworn enemy to wrong, so long as there was place found for it among men. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty (!) authority, have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the Saints were told to do by their Presidents, they should do it without questions.
When the Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience, as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves and wish to pave the way to accomplish that wrong; or else because they have done wrong, and wish to use the cloak of their authority to cover it with, lest is should be discovered by their superiors, who would require an atonement at their hands. “
(Millennial Star, 14:594 Nov 13 1852)

Anonymous said...

Nice post and quote anon 8:05AM.!

"But isn't obedience the first law of Heaven?"

That is a question many "faithful" will ask. It is a good question to, as uncle Rulon stated many times that it was.

"Obedience to what? To the principles and ordinances of the gospel"

That is a quote from uncle Rulon that is on one of his "Keep Sweet" cd's.

I feel that one of the great compromises of the FLDS people is turning from obedience to God's principles to obedience to a man.

How about this little saying that is taught over and over to the children: "perfect obedience produces perfect faith." Another mantra from uncle Rulon. I don't know about anyone else, but I have felt for years that is backwards. I would think “perfect faith produces perfect obedience” is more accurate. Obedience for obedience sake has no saving characteristics, and as stated by Joseph Smith is “slavery”. But obedience because of a belief in an ideal or principle does have saving characteristics. The problem I see with teaching it with the focus on faith is it removes the control of unquestioned obedience that the leaders have. Are they “leading us to Zion” or are they actually trying to “make” us Zion through control?

The way I view those in authority and how they use their position is to look at the motive in what the teach or require of those who look to them for guidance. Are the teachings, the requirements, the "revelations" done with the intent to lead through love (in which case they don't require obedience to them as a person, but to the principle they are teaching and trying to live themselves) or is it done with the intent to control.

A person who is leading through love will never say “do as I say and not as I do.” Also, if they are leading through love, pointing those who look to them to correct principle and not to themselves, they wont be concerned if their teachings and “revelations” are compared with the teachings of previous leaders.

The Lord is love and leads. The devil is all about control. We all know that a good end can never be accomplished with an bad means, nor should we ever do evil that good may come of it. Even though a leaders intent is a perfect people, if he tries to accomplish it through control, it will fail. As I understand it, that is the very reason Lucifer was cast out of Heaven and his plan for our salvation was rejected.

How does anyone else see it?

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

IITMOC.
excellent post, but here's how I see it. no rule is perfect. the common things in life are a blessing, or a danger. water can bless you or kill you, same with fire. the element Iodine is necessary to keep our bodies alive, but certain isotopes of Iodine will kill us. obedience will gain for us the blessings of the principles which we obey, or it can kill us, spiritually if not physically.
it's up to us to know the difference, thats what our brain is for. thats why must we own it, and not allow it to be controlled by some man who is probably no smarter than we are.

perfect faith comes through perfect experience.......but don't forget Murphy's principal.


uncaduff

Anonymous said...

IITMOC, how are you surviving? It seems that you must have on some frozen mask to not allow anyone out there to see how you really feel.

At some point, you will no longer be able to lead a dual life, and, like I did, you will have to reveal your true colors and pull away.

Believe me when I say I understand the hell you're living in, trying to act like you agree but in your heart rebelling.

You haven't mentioned if you are married. If you are who I think you are, you have a wife. And you are scared that if you reveal how you feel, she will leave you.

I say be brave. She comes from very intelligent stock and is probably just waiting for you to make the first move. You have plenty of family "outside." They/we would love to have your association.

Come on in! The water is fine!

Anonymous said...

uncaduff,

I think we are in agreement. It is our conscience or ability to think that we each must use in making our choices to gain what we want out of life. Big problem I see is so many people that don't know what they want. It is much easier to have someone tell them what to want and guarantee salvation by following that prescribed path. You will see this in more areas of life than just the FLDS. You are so right, to let someone else tell you how to live is not a responsible way to live.

BTW, I was the poster on the Noreen Nielsen Birk thread that said we are impacted by who is calling the shots. To clarify, I personally may not be as much as others, but my family, friends, and many who I know and love and still associate with are. Perhaps I should have clarified it a little better.

anon 7:51,
It sounds like you went through much of what I'm going through. Yes, I have certain things I can't accept and don't agree with. However, I value the association of my family and that of my wives (yes, I am married; no, I am not concerned that my family will leave me). I would have made my feelings know a long time ago, but there are those still in who need me here worse that I need to be out. I feel I can do them more good by sticking around.

Yes, eventually, I will let my true feelings be known. Thank you for caring. If you want, you can reach me @ iitmoc@gmail.com

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

7/08/2007 8:05 AM
Anonymous said... "But isn't obedience the first law of Heaven?"
I agree totally, but who is it that reigns in heaven?

Anonymous said...

6/27/2007 5:30 PM
Anonymous said... I began the previous quote in the middle. After some thought, I felt the preface to it should be included. It is as follows and is from the sam Millenial Star Ref:
The minds of men generally do not have the capacity to receive the ministrations of perfect beings; hence each grade of intelligences is administered unto by the next above in capacity, power, and glory, like unto the way of life to a Saint, which is from grace to grace, and from faith to faith, living by that which is in part until that which is perfect shall come. When the government of God is thoroughly established upon the earth, through the immediate agency of men and angels under God's own supervision, and as so far gained the supremacy over contending powers, that the King's person can be safe among men, and be duly honoured by them, then will he again come to reign, and bring in that which is perfect; then shall a universal day of peace and righteousness be enjoyed by those who inherit the earth; for the King has decreed that all who cannot abide and honour the perfect administration of his laws in that day, shall be destroyed from off the earth.
According to examples which are recorded in sacred writ, and which have actually been witnessed by many of the Saints of the present dispensation, men are called to receive the Priesthood, and in virtue of it, perform a certain work for which they seem adapted, and afterwards they are suffered to dishonour that Priesthood by using the influence which they have gained, to lead others astray; and thereby dishonour and reproach have at times been brought upon those who consider it a duty to listen to their counsel. By being enabled thus to accomplish their covetous, lustful, and unlawful ends, they have brought disgrace and suffering upon others, incurred the wrath of God and the disapprobation of His people upon themselves, and the power of the Priesthood has altogether departed from them, for its virtue will not abide with those who violate its laws.
Because of these facts, and the apparent imperfections of men on whom God confers authority the question is sometimes asked, to what extent is obedience to those who hold the Priesthood required? This is a very important question, and one, which should be understood by all Saints. In attempting to answer this question we would repeat, in short, what we have already written, that willing obedience to the laws of God, administered by the Priesthood, is indispensable to salvation; but, we would further add, that a proper conservative to this power exists for the benefit of all, and none are required to tamely and blindly submit to a man because he has a portion of the Priesthood... We have heard men... If interest is show, I will complete the end of the quote next post.

Anonymous said...

ignorance among the people, is a prerequisite for the success of Priest craft.

uncaduff

Anonymous said...

You sir are a wise man, Uncaduff. My hat is off to you. By any chance are you related to another wise man I know named Ben?

Ttttfwmhp! said...

We would ask, for what is the Priesthood given unto men? It is that they may have a right to administer the law of God. Have they then a right to make void that law? Verily no. When the law of God has gone forth from His own mouth, and been declared by the mouths of His Prophets and Apostles, saying, "Thou shalt not lie"; who can say by virtue of the Priesthood. You may lie and be approved? The Lord and His Prophets have declared it as a law unto His People, "Thou shalt not commit adultery.” Then who can say, Thou mayest commit adultery, and it will be no sin? It is written as a law unto the Saints "Thou shalt not kill.” Then we ask again, who can kill and be forgiven? And in like manner it might be asked of all the laws of God, who has the right to make them void? None can revoke the decree but Him by whom it was given; neither can the laws of God be trampled upon with impunity or revoked by a lesser power than that by which they are framed. It is written of God that He cannot lie; then none need suppose that He will approve of it through His authority, which is on the earth; neither is He the Son of Man that he should repent; therefore He will maintain the law by which His kingdom is governed. Should any think that they can give counsel to gratify their lusts, or answer avaricious ends, [or to otherwise alter the decrees of God], and say, "No one seeth us," while they indulge therein, and indulge in sin as a sweet morsel, they will learn with sorrow, that an eye which never sleeps has been upon their path, and He that seeth in secret shall make manifest, and reward openly every man according to his deeds, whether good or evil. God will not change or repent of that which He has said., as it relates to doctrine , laws , or ordinances! (It is as Alma said, if God changed, He would cease to be God.)
If a man could have as much authority as the Almighty, it would not authorize him to do wrong, nor counsel another to do wrong, or lead others to do wrong and the man that will administer with partiality, for the sake of screening iniquity, will find his stewardship will be taken from him.
In administering the government of God, there are three parties concerned, viz., the subject who is governed, the person who governs, and the person by whose permission or under whose approbation, he governs. Should a person be required to violate a known law by his President, or if he is not satisfied with the counsel which he gives, he should not openly rebel against that President, but if they cannot see eye to eye, he should appeal privately to the next higher power or President, and where there three are thus brought together who have a spirit to do right, right will prevail, and harmony be maintained. While such is the character of God's government that its genius and policy is to the end that iniquity may be swept from off the earth, persons need not think to excuse themselves for performing a known unlawful act simply because they were told to do it by another; if such an excuse as this would justify, none would ever need to come under condemnation; for men would be sure to find someone on whom to lay the burden of their sins. The day has come when every one may expect to answer for their own sins, without attempting to cloak them with another's Priesthood. (Millennial Star, 14:594 Nov 13 1852)

Anonymous said...

uncaduff,

You are dead on with that statement on ignorance!

It was more than just a "worldly" learning the leaders were and are afraid of when they discouraged public schooling and especially higher education. If you control what the people know, it makes it much easier to control their actions and loyalties.

Sad but true, many are proud of their blind faith and obedience. To them, it guarantees them salvation. If not proud, then they are fearful that if they do learn more, it may shake their faith and they will lose their salvation.

We learn from the time we are very small by asking questions. I ask all FLDS then, why are we discouraged from asking questions that we may have about what we are taught as being the truth? Is that not active ignorance? Is that not hiding up the “talent” of our mind, conscience and free agency?

Just some thoughts to ponder.

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

anon 6:53
Ben is my brother.

uncaduff

Anonymous said...

has anyone noticed, as I have, that those who seem to be otherwise intelligent,but lacking in practical ability, spend there efforts in getting the things they want, by using others with these abilities, through deceit, fear,or blackmail?

uncaduff

Ttttfwmhp! said...

The truth should be easily discerned, if we are willing to ask/examine the thing we hear being taught as such. If a doctrine/teaching contradicts or sets at naught the words of a former prophet who has spoken in the name of God and is acting in his calling as prophet, then we may be sure it is false. If it alters the decrees of our God, whose words do not change, as they pertain to the eternal ordinances and doctrines of the kingdom, then we know it is false. Here are 5 keys by which we can test any doctrine irrespective of its source. We may not be able to apply all, but 4 out of 5 would probably keep us on the path.
1.A doctrine cannot contradict scripture (All doctrine however, cannot be proven by the standard works, otherwise, no new revelation could come)
2.A doctrine cannot contradict the words of a former prophet (this does not exclude the receiving of NEW revelation, but new revelation will continue to build line upon line. It will not destroy or replace or be found to conflict with the foundation already established)
3.A doctrine must stand the test of reason within the context of doctrinal law
4.A doctrine must withstand the test given by Moroni:
Moroni 10:4
4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
5 And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things.
5. The truth will always taste good to the soul. (Joseph Smith Jr.)

Anonymous said...

When a people are so accustomed to lying to themselves, they could read what 7:10 posted and yet figure out how everything they are being taught agrees with the above passage. That would be child's play compared to how they already justify some things.

Now, what tastes good to one person doesn't taste good to another. As to the test of Moroni, be careful; God will tell you whatever you want to be true is true. (LTG, if you see this, where was you sattire?)

Anonymous said...

As to the test of Moroni, be careful; God will tell you whatever you want to be true is true.


interesting you should say that, could you tell us why you believe it to be so?

uncaduff

Anonymous said...

Anon 12:26 here

What I was saying is that Man created God from his own image--ination

Anonymous said...

12:26
I can't reuse material...I would sound like Muggsey.

I do have a Jewish Rabi living next door. He's funny and cracks me up and I tease him all the time about going to Hell. So tonight we were chewing the fat over the backyard fence and I asked him if he had prayed to God with faith in Jesus and asked if his prophets were on the right track. I caught him mid-sip and this was the first time I’ve ever seen a short Jewish Rabi shoot red wine out of his nose. He was laughing pretty hard (and choking a little), but I think he is converting because when the wine spurted out he yelled, “Jesus Christ, that hurts!”

LTG

Anonymous said...

"Should a person be required to violate a known law by his President, or if he is not satisfied with the counsel which he gives, he should not openly rebel against that President, but if they cannot see eye to eye, he should appeal privately to the next higher power or President, and where there three are thus brought together who have a spirit to do right, right will prevail, and harmony be maintained."

In light of the truth of this, I ask all FLDS, (I am still in) can this happen here? If for example, one who was asked to leave, not knowing what they had done seriously wrong, wished to go to the next higher authority to gain justice or at least some understanding, who would they turn to?

Tmuf

Anonymous said...

Tmuf,
turn the denial switch to off position, push the common sense button and hold down till the on indicator lights up. take a deep breath,that wonderful essence is the smell of freedom. you now have the ability to find the answer to your question.

uncaduff

Anonymous said...

Uncaduff,
Thank you for your advice and concern. Let me clarify. I am not living in denial. I am still in for very specific reasons. Although I know enough about things, to not believe everything I am told, but to search out the truth, I would just like to help others see the light. There are many people here whom I love that I feel I can help more by being here than leaving, and I have my freedom of thought wherever I am. No person can take that away from me, and God will not. It was my choice to stay here. Someday all the truth will be known.

I appreciate your light-hearted
and often wise approach to life.

Tmuf

fttc said...

Tmuf

It is people like yourself that will wake anyone that can be awakened. The sleeping malady that afflicts the FLDS is much like hypothermia- the longer they sleep the harder it is to wake them. Thanks for your comments. I hope you will post often.

mdj said...

I have plans to move to Lockney and I have plenty of thoughts on the FLDS. Years ago I belonged to a religion that the world seemed to reject. Honestly I did not fit into society and followed one person that "led us". I left the sect and a husband behind which was very difficult. I have also had Bible studies with Mormons and Latter Day Saints. During my troubled youth I moved from one religion to another seeking something that I needed. As the years past I left teaching to pursue my interest in law. I became a legal advocate for victims of domestic violence and sexual abuse. This led me to work with "at risk" youth. It was at this time that I had the chance to see, work near, and talk with FLDS members. Bottom line, Lockney it's time to pray. Pray to our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ to protect our families.