FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs may be serving life in prison, but his followers continue with their work on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas where the group's white limestone Temple towers over the town they are building. Polygamy, the practice of plural marriage, appears to be alive and well in the Lone Star State, despite laws to the contrary.
An interesting interview. I liked Brooke's a lot better. This interviewer seemed to be leading Kathy. It was too orchestrated, not real enough. If the real interest is the truth they need to just let her talk without the coaching.
I agree. It is a lot better when the journalists let the story be told, whether or not is "sounds" like they want it to or not. After all, I bet that even Kathy had some good memories about growing up. And who doesn't have "bad" memories about the things that happened between parents? At least her dad claimed as wives all the women he slept with and fathered children with! How many of us can say the same?
Thank you, I remember reading it somewhere before and Brown name appeared there also.
When you are being interviewed by a TV crew/reporter, the video hits the editing the intent can come out different.
But I thought her interview was spot on considering she had only minutes to tell a painful section of her life especially after reading her full story, with the help of Brown.
This part of her story is very telling.
"I no longer accepted the aspects of the Principle that didn’t make sense to me. Why did the Heavenly Father require men to have three wives in order to get into heaven? Why were women required to share their husbands, but not the other way around? Why did the Prophet need more than 50 wives? Increasingly, as I stitched my dress, I felt as if the needle were piercing my heart and soul. Who would stand beside me when I wore it? Would I be his first wife, his second or his third? Nobody could answer me. My fate had yet to be decided. Angering my elders."
I liked the part about questioning. The truth can always withstand questioning.
When I was studying for my engineering degree, there were several times something didn't add up or make sense, and I would approach a professor and get answers. He might inform me I was confusing momentum with kinetic energy, or some other blunder, but in the end, the laws of physics stayed internally consistent. I was never kicked out of a class for questioning what I was told in a class.
Kathy Jo was pretty accurate about what happens/happened at the Creek. However, the bit about the people "gathing in fields and parking lots, awaiting the lifting up" is fictitious. I wouldn't be surprised if she had heard that through the grapevine after she left, as a lot of people were told that by people trying to make fun of the FLDS, but that never happened.
Laurene Jessop talked about the people gathering in the field to be lifted up. It is a truth, they believed that the only reason they were not lifted up was because they had failed in their faith. There are many more who spoke of this event.
That is an old story that went way back to at least the 70's, when I first heard it. The people who loved to poke fun at the "plygs" would say that that they would gather on Berry Knoll from time to time, waiting to be lifted up and it would never happen.
Then for the past few New Year's eve, there were big stories in the media that Warren had decreed the lifting up on that night, and that was also fictional.
Anybody who's been around for a while has heard it all before, in all the variations.
My point is, let's stick to the truth. What Warren & Cronies are doing is bad enough without embellishment, and when people fabricate stories to make it sound even worse (ala Flora) it takes away from the credibility of the rest.
It was true... Trust what Laurene said to the world. It is on tape as I understand. May the heavenly father bless her for the truths she has revealed to save the women and children still enslaved. So that they may realize their potential.
Sounds kinda nutty doesn't it, when you put it in print.
But I do believe Rulon Jeffs did predict the world was going to end in 2000. Workers were called back to Shortcreek and equipment and jobs in California and Salt Lake were left behind. I believe some families where fiancially strapped afterwards, too.
Maybe you did not "know" because you were not one of the "selected to be lifed up".
Something to ponder, because the count has gone to 500 instead of 2500 last I heard.
Oh certainly it is easier to con 250 than 500,especially,when the 500 all think you are God.250 believe they are chosen,and the other 250,believe it just a test.
Why would the "lesser saints" willingly be "conned?"
We look at history and wonder how folks really thought that "indulgences" would work, and yet the church in the dark ages convinced the people that they would. You would think that a reasonable mind would know better.
Is it that much different than trying to “buy” your salvation with large tithes and blind obedience?
I'm not saying the faithful are committing sins or plan to, but it is the fact that they believe that by giving blind obedience and their all (including all income) they will be seen as faithful and guaranteed a place in Zion. Zion, we are told, is where the saints can walk and talk with God. Who wouldn't want that if they were striving to go back to Heaven? Can you not see the strong emotions involved here?
History repeats itself because we as humans make our decisions based on emotion and then back up that decision with we believe is logic. The less informed a people are, the less informed their decisions and logic can be.
As uncaduff has said, ignorance is definitely a prerequisite for the exploitation of a people. I’m not limiting this to just religion either.
Makes one wonder if the "dark ages" are really a thing of the past. For some, they certainly are not. An even bigger problem is that they are afraid of more "light" because it may cause them to "see" contradictions and shake their current faith.
Active ignorance is the curse which seems to hold too many abusive organizations and relationships together.
If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. But do not care to convince him. Men will believe what they see. Let them see. ---Henry David Thoreau---
just one at a time, as each person learns. surely you don,t think that God dosen't know,or care that people insist on wallowing in ignorance. .thats why he allows these charlatans to stay in power.it's a lesson in learning life's skill's. we either learn that ignorance don't work, or we end up catching a ride on the comet,or taking a drink of Jimmy's koolade. either way we learn. contrary to priestly propaganda,this life aint all there is.
There is only "one way" for eternity of bliss and it has nothing to with being a muslim, catholic, buddist, atheist, baptist, methodist or mormon.
Eternity has nothing to do with works, priesthood, having more than one wife, tithing, baptism or going to church every time the door is open or building a perfect society on this planet.
<<...contrary to priestly propaganda,this life aint all there is>>
unca, how do you know? I'm asking because I've always valued your opinion, even when I was just a little kid and you were the funny genius next door who played guitar and built HAM radios out of old 8-track parts. And I know you've been a whole lot closer to whatever is on the other side than I have (except that time I took a dare and drove 3 miles down the railroad tracks looking for an exit). But I do hope there's more explanation than the Bible.
LTG,caint tell ya on the net, its to personal. theres no way to prove anything to anyone, without a mutually accepted idea to compare your story with. if you don't accept intelligent design,you'll just have to wait and see. if you do,then a one shot go at life just isn't in sync with the kind of intelligence were talking about.
nope, jist 67 years of livin among various and sundry specimens of Homosapiens, and observin nature an how the Good Lord makes stuff an does stuff. uncaduff
unca: I must admit, I'm have more of a natural selection bend. To tell you the truth, I can't tell the difference between intelligent design and creationism...it sounds exactly the same to my ears. But I would still love to hear your ideas. One of these days I'll stop by and get a lesson. Whenever you're talking, I'm learning.
LTG, if the universe just happened all by it's self, then "its self" must be pretty damned intelligent. ever try to make anything that worked, even a little bit? uncaduff
Anonymous said... So, 11:44, are you holier than atheists? Even atheists who may have died in the battlefield for your freedom?
7/18/2007 11:51 AM
Only "One" is Holy-God.
But if there was an atheist that died on the battlefield for my freedom, I am thankful for their sacrifice and sad they die, leaving this world for another world reserved for the Devil and his followers. Eternally separated from God.
But personally I don't believe there is such a think as an "atheist".
what caused the big bang?what existed befor it? nothing? if nothing comes from nothing,can anything happen without a cause? can we even comprehend a system where infinity is incorporated as a psychical dimension ? so much of scientific theory has changed since I was born, I for one have to wonder about it as much as I wonder about religion. one thing fer sure, aint nonna us what really knows all about it. :>
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44 Pg.373 If Abraham reasoned thus -- If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.
5:52,....if the egg showed up first, there wouldn't a been no chicken ta hatch the egg,an if the chicken showed up first, there wouldn't a been no rooster ta fertileise the egg so there's no way there could be chickens. ...I jist don't believe in chickens!
Hmmmm...... Interesting discussion you have going here. I think I will weigh in now. (I have been unbelievably busy lately and my net was down. Stupid Baja Broadband....sigh....) I am on Darwin's (science's) side, and I agree that the chicken came first.
However, I also think it is virtually impossible to KNOW with all or any amount of certainty how the universe was created, by whom (if anyone) it was created, and what EXACTLY happens to us after we die.
Pure %100 truth is unattainable.
The best we can get is an unshakable belief so strong we FEEL it is true. Whether that believe is in God or in science it doesn't really matter. They are two sides of the same coin.
7/20 @6:09-You should watch the science channel sometime. Most science is quite logical, if you can get over the lump in your throat when it clashes with your religious beliefs. (I am not trying to be rude here, so please don't be offended. Maybe you already do watch educational programs? And maybe you were being sarcastic?) :)
bbgae, you misread me. Most people say probability rules out Darwin, but I was saying that Darwin is more probable than a God that mysteriously appeared somehow or mysteriously appeared from all eternity. I am not afraid to study into the epic of Gilgamesh, evolution, or anything else, including UFO's.
Amazing. No wonder so many of these discussions degenerate into some contest between "believers" and "non-believers".
You all have your various faiths because they were pounded into you as a child. This is why there are no Muslim children born to Catholic parents, and vice-versa. Yet you persist in arguing your sentimentality as though it contained some kind of universal truth.
I advise you all to take a trip to China, and meet ONE BILLION PEOPLE who are alive today, and come from countless generations, who have not even heard of Jesus, nor speak a single word of ANY of the languages the Bible has been translated through.
Don't you think it is rather selfish of people (and even borders on the spirit of murder) to want salvation only to themselves, to hell with everyone else? Sooner or later the Lord will kill all those I don't get along with so I won't have to deal with them.
2:59 A few years ago I was sitting in a hotel bar in Hong Kong, sipping a cocktail and waiting for the shuttle to the airport. An elderly couple sat in the two open stools next to me and we started to chat, with patience because of the accents. They were from China but had traveled quite extensively. They asked where I was from, and I said I was from Utah. The older lady asked "Are you prwowrigomous?"
I've come to the conclusion that the only thing that I can do is stick to the things that I understand the most. 1, Knowledge that God does exist.
2, That He does forgive those who seek forgiveness.
3, That We All are his children, no matter what we look like.
4, He is no respecter of Persons,no matter who you are, where you are from, or what religion you say you follow, if your heart is true to doing the best that you know how with the knowledge you have, he will bless you.
I disagree!! There are lots of people that have the knowledge that God lives. Well, maybe not so many but there are some. I am really surprised at you, coming from your background!!
79 comments:
An interesting interview. I liked Brooke's a lot better. This interviewer seemed to be leading Kathy. It was too orchestrated, not real enough. If the real interest is the truth they need to just let her talk without the coaching.
Did Brooke interview this gal too? Is there a link?
I agree. It is a lot better when the journalists let the story be told, whether or not is "sounds" like they want it to or not. After all, I bet that even Kathy had some good memories about growing up. And who doesn't have "bad" memories about the things that happened between parents? At least her dad claimed as wives all the women he slept with and fathered children with! How many of us can say the same?
Atar
I was referring to the last video link you put up. I don't know of any other interviews with Kathy.
Her story if featured in the July issue of Glamour magazine
http://teamsugar.com/user/Shiloh+Jolie+Pitt/blog
Here is a link that has the Glamour story.
It has more detail.
She did an interview with someone else before the Glamour interview.
I am still trying to find that.
I watched the ABC video and did not think she was "coached".
No Brooke did not interview her, but did mention the story was to be featured in the July 2007 Glamour issue on her blog.
Anon 1:38, perhaps this is the previous story you're looking for?
Christianity Today story:
http://www.christianitytoday.com/tcw/2006/novdec/12.64.html
Glamour story:
http://www.glamour.com/news/articles/2007/06/polygamy?printable=true¤tPage=all
Both stories are written by Jan Brown. The Christianity Today story has an email address for Kathy Jo at the end of the article.
Thank you,
I remember reading it somewhere before and Brown name appeared there also.
When you are being interviewed by a TV crew/reporter, the video hits the editing the intent can come out different.
But I thought her interview was spot on considering she had only minutes to tell a painful section of her life especially after reading her full story, with the help of Brown.
This part of her story is very telling.
"I no longer accepted the aspects of the Principle that didn’t make sense to me. Why did the Heavenly Father require men to have three wives in order to get into heaven? Why were women required to share their husbands, but not the other way around? Why did the Prophet need more than 50 wives? Increasingly, as I stitched my dress, I felt as if the needle were piercing my heart and soul. Who would stand beside me when I wore it? Would I be his first wife, his second or his third? Nobody could answer me. My fate had yet to be decided.
Angering my elders."
Kathy Jo Fan
Wow. I know exactly how she felt. Thank you for bring this to our attention, Atar.
I liked the part about questioning. The truth can always withstand questioning.
When I was studying for my engineering degree, there were several times something didn't add up or make sense, and I would approach a professor and get answers. He might inform me I was confusing momentum with kinetic energy, or some other blunder, but in the end, the laws of physics stayed internally consistent. I was never kicked out of a class for questioning what I was told in a class.
Questions are part of learning.
Questions are not a sign of unbelief.
Jesus was asked questions daily by his diciples.
Jesus gave answers and continues to do so.
Kathy Jo was pretty accurate about what happens/happened at the Creek. However, the bit about the people "gathing in fields and parking lots, awaiting the lifting up" is fictitious. I wouldn't be surprised if she had heard that through the grapevine after she left, as a lot of people were told that by people trying to make fun of the FLDS, but that never happened.
Really
Laurene Jessop talked about the people gathering in the field to be lifted up. It is a truth, they believed that the only reason they were not lifted up was because they had failed in their faith. There are many more who spoke of this event.
8:30
How do you know what went on? The left-hand of the "faithful" knoweth not what the right-hand doeth.
Now, I don't know the truth of it. I was never involved. My wife claims she knows it to be true.
That is an old story that went way back to at least the 70's, when I first heard it. The people who loved to poke fun at the "plygs" would say that that they would gather on Berry Knoll from time to time, waiting to be lifted up and it would never happen.
Then for the past few New Year's eve, there were big stories in the media that Warren had decreed the lifting up on that night, and that was also fictional.
Anybody who's been around for a while has heard it all before, in all the variations.
My point is, let's stick to the truth. What Warren & Cronies are doing is bad enough without embellishment, and when people fabricate stories to make it sound even worse (ala Flora) it takes away from the credibility of the rest.
It was true... Trust what Laurene said to the world. It is on tape as I understand. May the heavenly father bless her for the truths she has revealed to save the women and children still enslaved. So that they may realize their potential.
Sounds kinda nutty doesn't it, when you put it in print.
But I do believe Rulon Jeffs did predict the world was going to end in 2000. Workers were called back to Shortcreek and equipment and jobs in California and Salt Lake were left behind. I believe some families where fiancially strapped afterwards, too.
Maybe you did not "know" because you were not one of the "selected to be lifed up".
Something to ponder, because the count has gone to 500 instead of 2500 last I heard.
Fried Female
Please tell me where these big media stories are about the New Year's Eve lift ups.
I don't recall reading about these.
Warren Jeffs is indicted again four counts of sexual with a minor and four counts of insest (two men, two females).
http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/hourlyupdate/191494.php
8:38,anon.
The count is now down to 250.to be
lifted-up.
Well is that Jeff's immediate family?
Is that count include children, women?
Or just priesthood men?
Not all his immediate family.
I guess the 500 divided by one half.
I suppose it means priesthood men with their families.
Well I guess it is easier to con 250 priesthood men, than 500.
Oh certainly it is easier to con 250 than 500,especially,when the 500 all think you are God.250 believe they are chosen,and the other 250,believe it just a test.
Which 250 make the grade. Those who think you are a God, or those who past the test? Test of who can hand over the most "Money". The real "God".
the people who are being conned, are the majority, of the "lesser saints",who are paying for the whole scam
uncaduff
Why would the "lesser saints" willingly be "conned?"
We look at history and wonder how folks really thought that "indulgences" would work, and yet the church in the dark ages convinced the people that they would. You would think that a reasonable mind would know better.
Is it that much different than trying to “buy” your salvation with large tithes and blind obedience?
I'm not saying the faithful are committing sins or plan to, but it is the fact that they believe that by giving blind obedience and their all (including all income) they will be seen as faithful and guaranteed a place in Zion. Zion, we are told, is where the saints can walk and talk with God. Who wouldn't want that if they were striving to go back to Heaven? Can you not see the strong emotions involved here?
History repeats itself because we as humans make our decisions based on emotion and then back up that decision with we believe is logic. The less informed a people are, the less informed their decisions and logic can be.
As uncaduff has said, ignorance is definitely a prerequisite for the exploitation of a people. I’m not limiting this to just religion either.
Makes one wonder if the "dark ages" are really a thing of the past. For some, they certainly are not. An even bigger problem is that they are afraid of more "light" because it may cause them to "see" contradictions and shake their current faith.
Active ignorance is the curse which seems to hold too many abusive organizations and relationships together.
I for one would like to break the curse.
IITMOC
"Perhaps in time the so-called Dark Ages will be thought of as including our own."
- Georg C. Lichtenberg
I agree, I also would like to help break the curse. How many of us will it take?
Tmuf
If you would convince a man that he does wrong, do right. But do not care to convince him. Men will believe what they see. Let them see.
---Henry David Thoreau---
How many of us will it take?
just one at a time, as each person learns. surely you don,t think that God dosen't know,or care that people insist on wallowing in ignorance. .thats why he allows these charlatans
to stay in power.it's a lesson in learning life's skill's. we either learn that ignorance don't work, or we end up catching a ride on the comet,or taking a drink of Jimmy's koolade. either way we learn. contrary to priestly propaganda,this life aint all there is.
uncaduff
***Gasp***
Are you saying, uncaduff, that my imagining myself holier than others doesn't guarantee me an eternity of bliss?!
only temporary.
uncaduff
There is only "one way" for eternity of bliss and it has nothing to with being a muslim, catholic, buddist, atheist, baptist, methodist or mormon.
Eternity has nothing to do with works, priesthood, having more than one wife, tithing, baptism or going to church every time the door is open or building a perfect society on this planet.
Jesus/God said "I Am The Way"
So, 11:44, are you holier than atheists? Even atheists who may have died in the battlefield for your freedom?
<<...contrary to priestly propaganda,this life aint all there is>>
unca, how do you know? I'm asking because I've always valued your opinion, even when I was just a little kid and you were the funny genius next door who played guitar and built HAM radios out of old 8-track parts. And I know you've been a whole lot closer to whatever is on the other side than I have (except that time I took a dare and drove 3 miles down the railroad tracks looking for an exit). But I do hope there's more explanation than the Bible.
LTG
LTG,caint tell ya on the net, its to personal. theres no way to prove anything to anyone, without a mutually accepted idea to compare your story with. if you don't accept intelligent design,you'll just have to wait and see. if you do,then a one shot go at life just isn't in sync with the kind of intelligence were talking about.
uncaduff
Uncaduff!!! Woah!
That was carefully worded, but that is some pretty progressive thinking. Did you have one of those NDE's or something?
nope, jist 67 years of livin among various and sundry specimens of Homosapiens, and observin nature an how the Good Lord makes stuff an does stuff.
uncaduff
unca:
I must admit, I'm have more of a natural selection bend. To tell you the truth, I can't tell the difference between intelligent design and creationism...it sounds exactly the same to my ears. But I would still love to hear your ideas. One of these days I'll stop by and get a lesson. Whenever you're talking, I'm learning.
LTG
LTG, if the universe just happened all by it's self, then "its self" must be pretty damned intelligent.
ever try to make anything that worked, even a little bit?
uncaduff
Well, how did God "just happen?" That's more improbable than even Darwin's evolution.
Uncaduff, it was this "one shot go at life" that caught my interest. Coming from your background and all.
Thats the idea'r I would want to share with you over a beer. I think you could be onto something.
Anonymous said...
So, 11:44, are you holier than atheists? Even atheists who may have died in the battlefield for your freedom?
7/18/2007 11:51 AM
Only "One" is Holy-God.
But if there was an atheist that died on the battlefield for my freedom, I am thankful for their sacrifice and sad they die, leaving this world for another world reserved for the Devil and his followers. Eternally separated from God.
But personally I don't believe there is such a think as an "atheist".
So, a "rat" that believes is saved?
So, a "rat" that believes is saved
absolutely, look at Warren!
uncaduff.
Well, how did God "just happen?" That's more improbable than even Darwin's evolution.
explain how its more improbable.
uncaduff
Nothing comes from nothing, nothing ever could.
--Sound of Music
Where did God come from? Who designed him? A more powerful God? Where did that more powerful God come from?
what caused the big bang?what existed befor it? nothing? if nothing comes from nothing,can anything happen without a cause? can we even comprehend a system where infinity is incorporated as a psychical dimension ? so much of scientific theory has changed since I was born, I for one have to wonder about it as much as I wonder about religion. one thing fer sure, aint nonna us what really knows all about it. :>
uncaduff
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843-44 Pg.373
If Abraham reasoned thus -- If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John
discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose
that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And
where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree
or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes
in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which
is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a
Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine,
for the Bible is full of it.
anon 2:04,
You seem to have it figured out. So now if you could answer me something I have wondered for a long time, what came first, the chicken or the egg?
the chicken....
I think darwin would even agree
: )
5:52,....if the egg showed up first, there wouldn't a been no chicken ta hatch the egg,an if the chicken showed up first, there wouldn't a been no rooster ta fertileise the egg so there's no way there could be chickens. ...I jist don't believe in chickens!
uncaduff
I think eggs come from the egg fairy myself. The things they say are chickens, are really just disabled eagles.
are we talking about the same chickens?
uncaduff
The chicken came first.
Immaculate conception.
Ummm,
Immaculate Conception would mean that the egg came first, unless I completely misunderstand the conception concept.
Chickens are a myth,Eggs are a fantasy.No such things ever existed.It is just a trick of the Devil,to lead the faithful astray.
then where did warren get all his chicken $&%t from?
uncaduff
By throwing out all the eggs that were roosters.
Hmmmm......
Interesting discussion you have going here. I think I will weigh in now. (I have been unbelievably busy lately and my net was down. Stupid Baja Broadband....sigh....)
I am on Darwin's (science's) side, and I agree that the chicken came first.
However, I also think it is virtually impossible to KNOW with all or any amount of certainty how the universe was created, by whom (if anyone) it was created, and what EXACTLY happens to us after we die.
Pure %100 truth is unattainable.
The best we can get is an unshakable belief so strong we FEEL it is true. Whether that believe is in God or in science it doesn't really matter. They are two sides of the same coin.
7/20 @6:09-You should watch the science channel sometime. Most science is quite logical, if you can get over the lump in your throat when it clashes with your religious beliefs. (I am not trying to be rude here, so please don't be offended. Maybe you already do watch educational programs? And maybe you were being sarcastic?) :)
bbgae, you misread me. Most people say probability rules out Darwin, but I was saying that Darwin is more probable than a God that mysteriously appeared somehow or mysteriously appeared from all eternity. I am not afraid to study into the epic of Gilgamesh, evolution, or anything else, including UFO's.
Here ya go bbgae, let the mastermind himself, Albert Einstein, substantiate what you're saying....
"Science without religion is lame. Religion without science is blind." -- AE
keep sweet eldorado
stg
anon July 20 7:20 AM.
When ya wanna drop by fer th beer an bull session?
uncaduff
I would if I could uncaduff, and I would want heber and humpy to be there too, but I am in an alternate universe.
So go ahead on without me this time.
well, ok quantum leap, well do our best without ya.
cheers.
uncaduff
7/27 @6:11-
Sorry I misred you. Sounds like we think the same thing. Thank you for understanding. :)
Keep Sweet Eldorado Stg-
Thanks for the quote. :)
One thing I should warn you though, don't ask hebs to bare his testimony.
He might just say the closing prayer instead, and the meeting will be over.
Only thing left would be to drink up the refreshments.
Quantum
Quantum. long as theres still refreshments, Heeb aint a gonna close th meetin.
uncaduff
Well, in that case it might just keep going until everyone has to shut their eyes to keep from bleedin' to death.
Quantum
Amazing. No wonder so many of these discussions degenerate into some contest between "believers" and "non-believers".
You all have your various faiths because they were pounded into you as a child. This is why there are no Muslim children born to Catholic parents, and vice-versa. Yet you persist in arguing your sentimentality as though it contained some kind of universal truth.
I advise you all to take a trip to China, and meet ONE BILLION PEOPLE who are alive today, and come from countless generations, who have not even heard of Jesus, nor speak a single word of ANY of the languages the Bible has been translated through.
Then put that in your pipe and smoke it.
Hear, hear!
You make some excellent points, Anon 2:59. I couldn't agree more.
2:59,
Don't you think it is rather selfish of people (and even borders on the spirit of murder) to want salvation only to themselves, to hell with everyone else? Sooner or later the Lord will kill all those I don't get along with so I won't have to deal with them.
2:59, these guys cant even fathom numbers like "one Billion" unless it has $$$$ in front of it.
uncaduff
2:59
A few years ago I was sitting in a hotel bar in Hong Kong, sipping a cocktail and waiting for the shuttle to the airport. An elderly couple sat in the two open stools next to me and we started to chat, with patience because of the accents. They were from China but had traveled quite extensively. They asked where I was from, and I said I was from Utah. The older lady asked "Are you prwowrigomous?"
Make that 999,999,998.
LTG
I've come to the conclusion that the only thing that I can do is stick to the things that I understand the most.
1, Knowledge that God does exist.
2, That He does forgive those who seek forgiveness.
3, That We All are his children, no matter what we look like.
4, He is no respecter of Persons,no matter who you are, where you are from, or what religion you say you follow, if your heart is true to doing the best that you know how with the knowledge you have, he will bless you.
Knowledge or belief? If its actual knowledge, you'll be the first person ever!
LTG
Actual knowledge only comes with the forming of the third-eye abyss, the philosopher's stone.
LTG
I disagree!! There are lots of people that have the knowledge that God lives. Well, maybe not so many but there are some. I am really surprised at you, coming from your background!!
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