Friday, May 04, 2007

Maybe warren's malady is not FLDS specific?

I do not justify the FLDS for their position in regards to warren. I do hope this story will help some who think it is only the culture and lifestyle of the FLDS that have led them to where they are to see that it is more human nature than otherwise. (Click the thread title to read article).

62 comments:

fttc said...

This story has some similarities that are striking. Living high off the people that trusted him until he thought himself so far above others that they couldn't deny what he wanted. Holding himself above the law. Indulging himself in actions that he publicly condemns. In the end going off the deep end. Now he will likely plead insanity, end up in a mental institution and the victims of his perfidy will be his strongest sympathizers because of their forgiving natures as faithful Christians.

Quiet & said...

Thank you, fttc.

You are probably more right than you realize. Many, as what they have believed in all their lives is shattered, will try desperately to patch it back together and still believe it. Very few will try to find out why it broke.

IITMOC

bbgae said...

Wow. I agree with both of you.

bbgae said...

Ok. I just read your link, fttc. Wow again. that happened in Spokane? Scary....

Anonymous said...

Anyone know anything about the new FLDS compound in Texas? Lubbock TV had the Eldorado newspaper editor on talking about a new place he found but I didn't catch the details. Any of you heard anything about this?

feralfem said...

Anon, you're probably referring to TV station KAMC's story.

There's also a story in Thursday's The Eldorado Success. (You'll have to cough up $1.25 to see all of it.)

Here's the first paragraph:
"Word reached Eldorado this week that Samuel C. Fischer, one of Warren Jeffs loyal followers, has been busy acquiring property, including a manufacturing facility, on the Texas South Plains. According to Alice Gilroy, editor of the Floyd County Hesperian-Beacon, Fischer is in the process of purchasing a 176,368 sq. ft. manufacturing facility in Lockney, Texas. The site formerly housed the Tye Company, a farm implement manufacturer."


Here's the Hesperian-Beacon article referred to in the above quoted paragraph. (It's kind of long - recounting lots of historical stuff you probably already know.)

ATAR_i said...

I don't know about anyone else - but the small comment box does not allow for resizing any more.

So can I request that we post the full URL of the the link so that it can be pasted.

feralfem said...

Yes, the lack of resize is VERY irritating!

Admin, is there anything you can do about it from your end? Or is it Google/Blogger's fault?

However, there is another way to read comments (besides clicking on the comments link - which now brings up the annoying non-resizable window). Click on the time link, bottom left of each thread, which will expand that particular thread in the original window to show all its comments. From there you can right click on any posted link and choose to open it in either a new window or a new tab (for those of you with tabbed browsers).

But... here are the full URLs for my previous post:
TV station KAMC's story:
http://www.kamc28.tv/news/default.asp?mode=shownews&id=2289

The Eldorado Success:
http://myeldorado.net/

Hesperian-Beacon article:
http://www.hesperianbeacon.com/#bytheway

Anonymous said...

you can still resize.
drag from the lower left corner.

resize the text with control+scroll (FireFox)

Anonymous said...

Oh, no another God on earth, someone needs to tell Warren.

LIVE CONFERENCE -THE MAN CHRIST JESUS (666) IN ORLANDO!

The man Christ Jesus - Dr. Jose Luis De Jesus Miranda – arrived in Orlando, May 5, 2007 for a seminar that promises to bring prosperity, joy and peace to your life.

Proclaimed God in more than 30 countries, the renowned Apostle is catching the world by storm with a message that has recently banned his entry in 3 countries,
while millions worldwide have already tattooed their bodies with the 666 in recognition that the second coming of Christ has taken place.

Hundreds of followers from around the nation (the Antichrists) are traveling to hear him speak LIVE at Park Eola - Amphitheatre, for this exciting free-admission conference that is open to the public. All welcome!

Who is this man?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZSNMCrY8zM
Dare to listen to the most controversial message in History?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TkBmvI--27Q
666
http://www.youtube.com:80/watch?v=Hh573AmSz10

Anonymous said...

Everytime I look at any pictures of Warren or the picture of "The Temple" I cringe!!!

Anonymous said...

Re the 666 dude: Any of those videos in English for those of us chronically un-integrated?

feralfem said...

Check out the Wiki entry on this guy:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jose_Luis_de_Jesus_Miranda

And here's a quote from:
http://www.allaboutcults.org/jose-luis-de-jesus-miranda.htm

"Jose Luis de Jesus Miranda’s message is basic: “freedom to indulge.” He teaches that:

* The devil, hell, and sin are non-existent,
* Prayer is a waste of time, and
* The Ten Commandments (moral or ethical guidelines) are irrelevant.

His followers believe they are God’s chosen people, predestined for salvation, no matter what they do on earth. As such, all other religions’ teachings are rejected, believing that all other faiths are false and must be destroyed -- even when Crescendio en Gracia’s marches result in violent consequences. Miranda esteems himself above Jesus of Nazareth. His responses during interviews are startling: “I am greater than him . . . I teach better than him . . . I won’t die. Even if you tried to kill me! I will be president of the biggest government that this earth has experienced. I’m going to change the whole world.”


And another thing: the above article also says "...Miranda travels with a security team of nine bodyguards."

So, if he claims he won't die, why does he need all those bodyguards? Huh?

Based on what I'm reading, I don't need an English version of those videos. We really needed one more bigger, badder cult in our midst, didn't we? ;-)

Anonymous said...

Matthew 24

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

bbgae said...

Hmmmm... How come I have to manually sign in again? i was liking it sooo much the other way....:)

Anonymous said...

My firefox won't resize - and I've tried. : (

and gosh darn it - it won't let me log in again!

atar

feralfem said...

Atar, You're right. Firefox IS a problem. I'm having no success with logging in either.

However, I had no problem logging in with Internet Explorer (IE), but resizing the comments window is totally broken. I can resize any other IE or Firefox window.

This is really annoying! It appears to be a Blogger issue not Texas Polygamy's fault.

Admin, any ideas about what's going on here or what can be done about it?

Anonymous said...

I was finally able to go to google.com - and log in there, and then log in. Although - it drives me crazy that it logs my searches - so I turned it off, and I'm probably not signed in anymore.

So....that's that. I'm sitting right there with you feral.

atar

bbgae said...

Well... It's behaving it's self for me today...Maybe it will for you, next time, too, Atar.

bbgae said...

Atar-
Will you forgive me for trying to defend you from the troll? I assure you I was only trying to help, not make things worse...

Does everyone else forgive me? Please.

Anonymous said...

Heavens no forgiveness needed, if the troll gets rabid sometimes it's hard to ignore.

Sometimes the 'chat' in here goes in cycles, it's probably just the downward cyle - so don't worry, or take it personally.

You are probably one of the reasons we had such a chat fest not that long ago - you sparked a lot of good conversation!

ATAR_i said...

that was me - atar (the post above) I thought I signed in, weird

bbgae said...

Thank you, Atar. I feel better now.

Anonymous said...

Does anyone know what "The FLDS Temple" is like inside and if they actually use it and what for?

Anonymous said...

Warren Jeffs lawyers realizing that loopholes in Utah law can allow trial to be delayed for years, have filed for a competancy hearing for Jeffs.

From SL Trib: Competancy Hearing for Warren Jeffs

In 2003 two polygamists by the name of Brian Mitchell & Wanda Barzee were arrested for kidnapping a 14 year old Salt Lake City girl and forcing her into polygamy. Their defense attorneys have prevented their trial for 4 years by useing insanity defense.

Warren's lawyers are watching and appear to be moving to prevent trial by useing insanity defense to tie up case for years. Result like Mitchell & Barzee, Warren spends years in mental hospital as patient rather than convict in prison.

Anonymous said...

Do patients in a mental hospital get conjugal visits?

Anonymous said...

Can someone be put into a mental hospital just because they claim to speak with God?

Can someone be put into a mental hospital just because they claim to BE God?

Anonymous said...

His guilt is driving him to insanity. 4 years waiting for his trial? Another 6 months and by that time his guilt will have turned anything that remains of his mind to mush.

God help him. But we reap what we sow. History repeats itself and messianic narcissism always ends the same.

To bad the flds people had to share so much of the burden of one man driven to madness by such deep unconscious guilt.

fttc said...

Anon 8:42

Perhaps it will be good to remind us that warren is not incarcerated for claiming to speak with diety. He is not incarcerated for claiming he is diety. He is incarcerated for breaking the laws of the land. A warrant was issued for his arrest and he fled. The state of Utah passed a law prohibiting him from performing marriages on underage girls and he thumbed his nose at the law. On top of that we are slowly coming to the realization that he took the money of thousands and spent it living in a pompous and hypocritical lifestyle.

It may be true that his guilt is slowly driving him mad. It probably is going to end up in an insanity plea, but let's not forget how he got to this point.

Anonymous said...

Did anyone hear about Dan Timpson
(still faithful to warren) getting a DUI? Whats strange is he isn't even kicked out yet. Though Wendell M sure got the boot faster than anyone. Hmmm... I wonder if Will(the bishop) evens knows about Dan's boozing, he probably does but they're brothers so Dan is safe(he hopes) for now. We'll see what happens eh

Anonymous said...

Why are you so anxious to rat out Dan Timpson that you post on multiple threads? DUI is serious in my book, but not serious enough to axe a family over it.

bbgae said...

9:05
Didn't you get the memo saying rules can be broken or bended according to the way the bishop feels at the time? (sarcasm off now.) lol.

I think the main difference in these two instances was Warren considered Wendall M.'s DUI a breach of faith because of the possibility of it's leading to his possible capture. Come on, you all know how Warren thinks. It's not that hard. It wasn't that Wendall drank, IMHO, it was that he allowed himself to get into a position where he was pulled over. And it was worse for him because he was an 'inside' man. Warren interpreted it as a loss of faith ( I assume.)

If he had been thinking of Warren, he wouldn't have drank. If he hadn't drank, he probably would not have been pulled over. If he hadn't been pulled over, the police wouldn't have had a lead on Warren's whereabouts. Therefore, his lack of faith put his prophet in jeopardy, and he was then considered unworthy. Can you see the thought process I assume Warren used here?

For the record, I think the above paragraph is a load of cr-p. There is no excuse in the world for tearing Wendall's family away from him like that over something so insignifigant as a DUI.

Wendall, if you're out there somewhere, your story touched my heart and you have my prayers and support.

Anonymous said...

I come back to the blog after a few weeks and the only thing I read about is a rumor about DT getting a DUI? If it's true, I'm glad he didn't get in a bad wreck or kill someone, but I knew DT in high school and it didn't take much more than 1/2 a BudLight to make him pass out back then. I'm sure not much has changed. A boozer? I'm skeptical, although I would be if I still lived there and was constantly worried if I was going to lose my family.

LTG

Anonymous said...

And if they kicked out someone for drinking they'd have to boot the whole town.

LTG

TBM said...

Is this another sign that Warren's losing authority over the FLDS?

feralfem said...

Polygamist leader gets jail visits from doctor, family

http://www.myfoxphoenix.com/myfox/pages/News/Detail?contentId=3180759&version=2&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

I'm glad to hear his mother (Merilyn) is visiting him. I wonder how she is doing -- how all this is affecting her as a mother. I can hardly imagine.

bbgae said...

Thankyou for the info., Feralfem. :)

Anonymous said...

Ya... don't see what your point is anon 9:05,Posting that on multiple threads.I knew dan and he was always real decent to me. I say
stay out of other people's problems and worry about your own life!

Anonymous said...

Come on all you crows on the fence line. Warren is in jail, get over it, move on, fly of to another fence line to crow on. Warren is history, he is gone, NOT coming back, any time soon. They should put him in a padded cell next to Tom Green, they could talk to each other, they are both about as stupid. Some body else will take over, hopefully smarter than Warren.

ATAR_i said...

Clearly warren was able to participate in his own defense when he was initially brought into custody.

Is this new instability a breakdown, a fake, will it make a difference in his sentencing - who knows.

But, if he spends time in his little cell, or in a loonie bin - he is still not free. Perhaps the only thing an insanity defense will gain him is a less heinous criminal record.

Anonymous said...

How does one who has been so active in disobedience to the law, theft of money belonging to the very ones whom he instructed and indeed who have trusted him gain forgivness?

If he is sent to a mental institution how long do you supposed that he would have to stay in order to regain his sanity? Do you really think it possible that he would ever again be able to have the absolute trust of his followers? There is a good probability that were he temporarily declared incapable of standing trial due to mental distress that once the physicians claimed him fit, he will stand trial.

Do you think that as a condition to his gaining freedom he should submit to castration, be demoted from his high position as Prophet of FLDS, held in isolation without the benefit of items with which to communicate to the outside world, denied visitation from anyone within FLDS for the rest of his life?

He has thought himself to be above mere mortal man for years. I'll bet he is singing another song (maybe in private) now.

Should he receive pity? Forgivness? I forgive him, he has done nothing amiss to me. I am glad that he is to face those whom he has hurt with his arrogance, duplicity and by his tearing families apart. He hasn't nor can he affect me. I don't fear him. Even were he in my presence and made the mistake of attempting to harm my person he would fail. I am much stronger than he.

Forgivness is a difficult thing to accomplish. If dishonor, shame, mental or physical abuse has been performed by the one, or ones now asking forgivness can you forgive them their foul deeds?

This is just something to ponder.

Anonymous said...

Give it up this blog is over... RIP

fttc said...

Anon 7:00 PM

Warren seems to still have the absolute trust of his followers. That really is the problem.

If his followers really were able to see him as he really is they would likely never trust him again. Forgive him, yes, but never would they trust him completely. It would not be possible.

I don't think anyone that really gets a handle on what has happened would have a hard time forgiving warren. Anyone that will be honest with themselves will have to admit they are to blame for most of the hold he has over them. He did not start out a dictator with a sword or gun at the back of the people. The people got what they asked for. Some are still happy with what they got.

A few reallize now that they have exchanged freedom for 'spiritual' security and have removed themselves from his control. Any claim to security through the loss of freedom is an oxymoron and will not stand the test of time and they are seeing this. Some of them are too blind to see they are as much or more to blame than warren and they are very bitter against him. Someday they too will see. Others have just moved on with thier lives and are doing just fine.

(I am speaking here of the family breakups that we know occurred, and the money pilfering which we know occurred. I am not addressing the claims of sodomy and other abuses whick he is accused of but not proven guilty of. I am in no way saying these alleged victims brought this on themselves.)

ATAR_i said...

Interesting points fttc.

bbgae said...

Fttc-
I completely agree with you. However, I will also admit to liking the prospect of Warren facing up to some of his OWN ACTIONS. (Just like he had all of us do.)

Anonymous said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Anonymous said...

and you anonymous coward, are mentally and morally bankrupt.
uncaduff.

bbgae said...

Hey guys!
I just read an article wherein it was reported Warren will go to court in September. The judge ruled he is physically fit to attend court and that his medical records may be released.
Also, the reporter who enhanced the note warren wrote disclaiming himself as prophet will not have to testify.

ATAR_i said...

really - what will he testify to?

where did you find this info?

feralfem said...

Here are some related stories I've read over the past couple of days(different tidbits in each and I'm sure there are other published accounts):

Polygamy Attorneys argue for privacy of sect leader's papers
{ http://www.azcentral.com/news/articles/0524sect-ON.html }

Judge says Jeffs fit for trial
{ http://origin.sltrib.com/ci_5993103 }

Making the media the story
{ http://blogs.sltrib.com/plurallife/ }

bbgae said...

I found a link on MSN after checking my e-mail that led me to a news site with the story. I forget which new company it was.

I THINK there was the possibility he (the reporter) might have to defend his actions of digitally enhancing Warren's paper, but the judge ruled for stricter media rights in the court room instead. This is just my assessment of the situation. I don't know for sure.

feralfem said...

Latest news on Warren's "maladies":

Unsealed reports reveal life in jail for FLDS leader
{ http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,660225015,00.html }

He's depressed. (I would be too, under the circumstances.)

fttc said...

I thought warren looked much better in the court photos. He is brighter eyed and has better color. Perhaps he is eating again?

Does anyone know who the supporters were at the hearing? Last time there were some photos. I couldn't see any in the album this time.

bbgae said...

Thankyou, feralfem for the info, once again. :)

Ok, I knew Warren was skinny, but 136 lbs at 6' 4"! See, fttc? Malibu Ken definatly wins......

Anonymous said...

fttc,
this time it was the same group of FLDS supporters as attended the past 2 hearings.

fttc said...

Thank you Anon. Were you at the hearing?

BB At that weight and hieght he has to be mostly bone mass, but didn't you think he looked better, or at least healthier?

I better not comment on Ken. It got me in trouble last time. :)

Anonymous said...

fttc,
Yes I was at the hearing. Warren looked much better than he did at the March hearing. He was more alert and his color was much better - not as ashen.

Although he seemed to just stare at the attorneys who were speaking to the judge, he kept his eys open and did not fall asleep this time - at least as far as I could see.

Warren looked very thin. The bullit-proof vest he wore protruded through his suit jacket very visably. He looked thin on Friday like he has at the other hearings over the past 6 months. But maybe not as gaunt and hollow-cheeked as he looked in March.

It was good to see him looking more alert. You probably know by now that the judge has ruled that Warren is competent to stand trial for the legal charges filed against him in Utah.

His demeaner on Friday made him appear much more competent than he appeared in March.

bbgae said...

Fttc:
Yes, he DID look better and I was very glad to hear he had been pronounced healthy.

It did not either get you into trouble last time. We were teasing, and it was fun. :)

Anonymous said...

Warren Jeffs if convicted will be subject to the sex offender law known as "Adam Walsh Child Protection and Safety Act" which was lobbied for by John Walsh & polygamy victim Elizabeth Smart. Warren Jeffs, if he ever gets out of jail will be required to provide LE with his address for as long as he lives.

Jeffs can blame fellow polygamists Mitchell & Barzee for this law being passed. The SL Trib reported: "could be years before accused kidnappers Mitchell and Wanda Barzee - each charged with felonies that include kidnapping and sexual assault - are declared mentally fit to stand trial."

Read article: Trib Story

IMO Warren Jeffs attorneys will copy tactics used by Mitchell & Barzee's lawyers to tie up case for years.

Anonymous said...

long as they keep him locked up,who cares?

Anonymous said...

All the millions of us who have been following this case are tired of the tiptoe through the tulip appproach of both sides of this case. Were it anyone of less prominence he/she would probably cop a plea in an effort to get their jail time over with asap. Not FLDS though, publicity, even as deluded and sordid as it appears, ensures that Jeffs will continue to make it on to page one or two of newspapers who have followed the story from it's beginning.

Feed him until his weight nears one hundred ninty-five pounds. He will look less like a cadaver, besides good nutrition will improve his overall health.

Anonymous said...

9:17,
And your point is?
_____________(fill in the blank)