Wednesday, January 31, 2007

Warren Jeffs Taken to Hospital

Warren Jeffs, leader of the FLDS Church, was taken to a hospital earlier this week after he was found "distressed." Some former members of his polygamist group wonder if the incident had to do with one of his prophecies.

Three years ago Jeffs prophesized that he would die a martyr and this latest medical scare has former members of his wondering if Jeffs is getting a little nervous that prophecy may not be fulfilled.

Click the title above to read more

190 comments:

Anonymous said...

Old new Atar_i, I bet that little transport was a logistical nightmare for Law Enforcement.

On a side note, anyone been to CC lately? They just opened a cafe called The Merry Wives Cafe it is right off the Highway at their Gas Station. They have older pictures of big polygamous families. I was pleasantly surprised at how nice it was. Seems they've figured out that they shouldn't hide from it but exploit it.

ATAR_i said...

Why wasn't it published here?

I know it's several days old, but I didn't know about it - and I thought perhaps others might not either.

Get outta here - that is awesome!

CHRH said...

The Merry Wives Cafe is owned and ran by members of the Centennial Park group. FLDS members would never do that. From what Ive heard theyre in the process of getting a liquor license......and yes, it is very nice.

fttc said...

Thanks Atar, I had not checked the news for several days and it was new to me too when I saw it here.

Anonymous said...

It is probably news to anyone not in the state. That is the top story for this one cow state so we've been hearing it for a couple of days now.

PB

Anonymous said...

Are Ross and Lori Chatwin still residing in C.C.area?I know this is a little off topic but,I would like to know how they are doing?

Anonymous said...

who cares

Anonymous said...

I care!!! Ross and Lori are great folks!!! VERY brave couple who spoke out about the evil treatment from Warren Jeffs.

And, yes they are still living there.

Anonymous said...

rumer sayes, warren is in psycreatic ward because of nervous breakdowen. also,money not comming in like he's used to.

Anonymous said...

wen roomers ar mispelld, i tind two knot bleeve em.

Anonymous said...

Of course Warren was "distressed" as nurses said in that article. After Utah finds him guilty Arizona is going to BURY his butt!

red rocks girl said...

Have you been around town lately? There are kids on bikes, horses with riders going down the street. Women walking with their children(no husband in sight) I even had a lady at the dairy who was serving us tell my daughter that she looks just like her dad (the devil incarnate himself acording to the FLDS) and that our family had some beautiful children. I about had to pick my jaw up off the floor when she said that. Some thing good is happening in CC for once and I'm hoping it continues!!!

fttc said...

Glad to hear it Red! We have noticed an increase in FLDS members willingness to communicate as well. They're headed in the right direction. I too hope it continues.

Anonymous said...

that's interesting to hear. I no longer live in CC, but I have notived that those who are still "in" treat those who are "out?" like dirt. I DO NOT consider myself or family "out", but instead "striving to do the best we can".

I still have my testimony, and I still believe that the time will come when the Lord, Jesus Christ will set things straight.

Whith out this belief, I would have no hope, for a better life.

ATAR_i said...

Perhaps warren is learning his edicts are being tossed in the trash, where they belong - and the FLDS are returning to the values they once treasured.

P.S. - I don't know Ross, but Lori is a dear.

annonymousofficegirl said...

does anyone know anything about the Stanley Jessop family? I would realy appreciate any news.
annonymousofficegirl@yahoo.com

ATAR_i said...

Has anyone else been to CC -

Does anyone know what's up with the attitude switch?

Anonymous said...

I haven't been to C. C. but I saw someone in the store the other day and she acually smiled at me! If you want to contact Lori, I saw her file on classmates. com. I think her e-mail is there, but if not you should be able to leave her a message if she's still a member. by the way, has anyone heard if Jerry Darger has been asked to leave town? I saw him a couple of months ago and he looked like his heart was about to break. Any body know why? I would appreciate the info e-mail me at tendifinia_jo@hotmail.com. Thanks

Anonymous said...

has anyone heard anything about warren confessing that he was not a prophet?
I heard this happened.

Anonymous said...

He's such a liar that if he did make such a statement it at might be enough to make me believe that he really is a prophet.

ATAR_i said...

LOL - good one 10:34

I finally realized why everyone is excited - I told them I was coming to town.

Boom, the next day, a cafe opens up and everyone is smiling.

: )

(tongue in cheek)

fttc said...

Are you always that humble? :)

Anonymous said...

hey atar_i

Don't forget your camera!!!

keep sweet eldorado
stg

Anonymous said...

So how are things at CCUSD these days, with the receiver and all?

Have they found all the awful things in the files that they were going to look for?

Anonymous said...

It is El Capatain now.
No they never found what they were hoping to.

ATAR_i said...

fttc - did you not see my tongue crammed in my cheek : )

fttc said...

Atar-Of course. That is what caused the wonderment. If you can talk that way while chewing on your tongue I hate to see what it would be like if it had full liberty.:)

I'm TJOC. Your explanation for the attitude change is probably as rational or more so than the true reason, whatever it is. Rationality is not a strong point with the FLDS at this time.

Anonymous said...

I know that this is WAY off the subject. But I cannot for the life of me understand how a woman can get pregnant, have a baby, and NOT know who the father is. (news article on Anna N. Smith) several men claiming to be the father.

Thank goodness for people with morals. The only woman who have multiple sex partners are those who:

#1. their husband dies,looses his family.
or
#2. leaves the work.

I read the new and can't understand how people men/woman would have sex quicker that a hand shake.

And...Sodam and Gamorah was wicked???

Anonymous said...

I'm basically refering to the flds when I mentioned the "only woman".

Although I know that there is a lot of good morally clean and sound woman and men out there. Just don't hear of them often.

The new media sure likes to print trash...

Anonymous said...

2:50, I find your comments contradicting in that a lot of the flds women have husbands that have lost their families......several times! Some of the women are on their 4th husband!

Anonymous said...

Anon 7:41

I realize that, but at lease they know what man fathered what child.

I have been married to the same man for 24 years. He was my first, I was his first. And He will be my only partner for as lone as there is life in my body.

Anonymous said...

Back on topic.

Warren had the faithful fast and pray for 3 days last week for his recovery and deliverance from jail. I don't know if he is feeling any better, but he has not yet been delivered.

Then...

He sent word early this week to the faithful that the Lord was not pleased with them and the fast not accepted. They were told to fast once again for three days this week.

This is how I read what he is doing, and I may be wrong:

Warren is in jail and is realizing he may be there for a long time. Extra measures have been taken to make certain that he stays in good health (the last thing the state wants is a martyr on their hands). At the same time, some of the faithful are losing faith in him as a prophet. Warren must show that it is because of the peoples lack of faith and cleanliness before the Lord that he is still incarcerated, not that he isn't a prophet. So, he is now doing a classic trick that has been used before: make the people responsible for his condition by their lack of faith. Now, if he is not delivered, he is sacrificing his all in jail because of the lack of faith in the FLDS.

How does anyone else see the situation?

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

sounds like a logical ploy for illogical minds.

Anonymous said...

Warren Jeffs will be released from jail in a period from 15 to 28 of March.

Anonymous said...

The God will hear prayers about him and will give him freedom.

Anonymous said...

God knows Warren Jeffs needs to stand trial for what he is accused, guilty or not. He is no better than the rest of us.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Warren Jeffs will be released from jail in a period from 15 to 28 of March.

2/11/2007 5:08 AM


Anonymous said...
The God will hear prayers about him and will give him freedom.

2/11/2007 7:24 AM



Illogical minds...I rest my case.

Anonymous said...

anon,putting dates to a prophecy usually proves fatal to a prophet's reputation.
and,"THE god will hear prayers...and give him freedom."

meaning which god?

Anonymous said...

Is the Fld's going to go and brake him out on one of those dates so his prophecy come true?

Anonymous said...

That prophecy (about dates in March) isn't from Warren Jeffs or FLDS. It came from absolutely other man. He said it will be the legal action- bail may be.

Anonymous said...

so now what

ATAR_i said...

I have a hard time believing that he would qualify for bail. But, even if he did, they would haul him off to another jurisdiction and he'd have to do this whole song and dance again.

But I do love prophecies with dates too, I'd like to pin the anon date pusher a little bit more, a less ambiguous statement. I know how these types like to twist things into knots when their prophecies don't come true.

So, tell us about the march prediction - is it a prophecy, or just your own personal wishful thinking?

On another note. Soddom and Gomorrah had not ONE but Lot who was holy. We're not even close to that.

Yes, surely there are those who are overtaken by the flesh, and have slept in the beds of too many individuals. In your own faith, a man sleeping with multiple women is holy, in my religion it's an abomination.

So, are you right, or am I? Do you have the right to judge me, or I the right to judge you?

OR

Do neither of us have the right to judge each other, for judgement comes from the Lord (or perhaps in your case, that guy smoldering in jail?)

I guess I'd rather believe in an omnipotent God who is all powerful, than the skinny man on trial for the shameful acts of taking the innocence of the young men and women whom he was put in charge over.

fttc said...

Atar- Where's your sense of adventure? Go with the skinny guy, pull the lever and see what happens!

wildthangfromCC said...

More like pull my finger and see what happens! Warren has had to self-fulfill all of his "prophesies" in order to make them come true!

Anonymous said...

After all that the law inforcement had to do to acually catch Warren, I do think they are smarter than to allow him any kind of bail, especially just before his court date. I think it's all a bunch of wishful thinking. Ying-yang

ATAR_i said...

fttc, if you must know, since childhood I have always found a stout man so much more pleasing to the eye. I'm blaming it on my Ken doll.

And twice in one thread you call into question my adventurous spirit - what am I to make of such teasing?

Am I to believe you find me faint of heart, or lacking in spirit? That you would encourage me thus, towards the emaciated man, bids not well for your perception of my character.

I need some vapors.

fttc said...

I never thought of warren as a ken doll. That line of thought has some possibilities. Isn't ken blonde? Is warren playing dolls with the people?

Atar- Your perception is amazing. And just when I was having my doubts. ;-)

Anonymous said...

one question has been boggling my mind since wj got busted.

what does he need a lawyer for?
doesn't he speak directly with god?
what possibly does a lawyer know or do that god can't?

keep sweet eldorado
stg

fttc said...

Was there a lawyer Ken doll?

Anonymous said...

how about FLDS Barbie?

keep sweet eldorado
stg

Anonymous said...

There was the divorced Ken doll -- had only shorts.
Barbie had all her stuff and his stuff too!!

ATAR_i said...

Ack - Ken is NOT emaciated - Malibu Ken was my favorite Barbie! He reminded me of the six million dollar man (I'm totally dating myself here) - whom I had a mad crush on.

fttc - I think we need to take a break, I fear you don't trust me. Thus, I think our GI Jane trip will have to be postponed until we get some virtual counseling.

Quick - more vapors.

fttc said...

A truce! A truce! I am hanging out the white flag. PLEASE don't take away my GI Jane! I take it all back. I'm sorry, so sorry. I didn't mean to attack Ken in that way. He really is so studly! Not at all like the emaciated one. (Well, maybe the hieght, but pretend I didn't say that.) Don't postpone the trip. PLEASE!! I'll do anything you want. We don't need the counseling but if you want I'll do it. Anything you say! Just don't walk out on me.

Anonymous said...

Come on, Admin! Pour a bucket of cold water on this pair. They are starting to embarass me.

Anonymous said...

Are they already a pair?

Anonymous said...

Things seem to be going well in CC, business as usual and I even saw a few FLDS at the Cottonwood Park (the first in prob a good 8 months)

Off the subject, They were digging a baby grave on Saturday. I just noticed as I drove by a couple times :) I haven't heard anything about it tho.

There are still those that are IT and threaten anyone that doesn't kiss up that they won't ever see their grandchildren again or nephews and nieces (most of this is said nicely like "if you continue to associate with your apostate children, you won't be seeing me and my children")

And those who have it made...judge others and say "SO and so doesn't deserve his family, he doesn't take care of them, I bet ___ is next on the list to get kicked."

Ain't it great to not be on the list! at least that list...

Anonymous said...

Lee Bistline is in the hospital with serious diabetic complications.
he says when he gets better, he's planing to come home,(whether Gummer jeffs likes it or not).parenthesis mine;

uncaduff

ATAR_i said...

Well good for him, how old is Lee? What is his relation to Ben?

fttc - ok ok, just don't mess with ken.

fttc said...

:-}

Anonymous said...

Did anyone watch the Outsiders last night on TV. It was about Centennial Park and showed a polygamist family that wanted everyone to know that there isn't anything to hide in their community, unlike in CC.

Anonymous said...

atar-i, lee is bens brother,(and mine) he's around 75.....he's not in the best shape, if anybody cares he needs our prayers.....he had pretty good standing in the community before gummer jeffs came along.I think it would do a lot of people good to see him come home...ON HIS OWEN INITIATIVE!..

uncaduff.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said...
Did anyone watch the Outsiders last night on TV. It was about Centennial Park and showed a polygamist family that wanted everyone to know that there isn't anything to hide in their community, unlike in CC.

2/14/2007 9:29 AM


YEAH RIGHT.....IF YOU BELIEVE THIS YOU BELIEVE WARREN IS THE PROPHET.

Anonymous said...

I didn't say I believed it all, but they did open their home, their community and their church to the TV for viewing....why wouldn't CC do this if there is nothing to hide?

I'm not FLDS and couldn't care less to be honest. I was just asking if anyone else had seen it and that they opened up their lives to TV.

Did I say I believe it? At least they opened their doors to the outer world. Why so harsh? Not a happy person are you anon 2/14/'2007 2:30.

You sound very angry.

bbgae said...

I didn't see it but I wish I had know it would be on. I would have watched it.
The FLDS don't open their homes for one reason because they believe anyone from the outside would not fully understand their religion and accuse them unjustly of imangined crimes.I'm not saying I believe that or that it is right, just explaining a little. I don't think they even realize that by shutting themselves away they are only making everyone wonder what they are hiding. But the more public attention they have, the more secretive they become.
I agree with you that it was nice for the man in Centanial Park to open his home for the camera. I think perhaps they are trying to say they are good people and put a definate recognizable difference between themselves and the FLDS. I think it is good for them to stand up for what they belive in and say- "Here we are. We have nothing to hide." The longer I am away, the more I realize the things I heard about them while I was growing up are not true.
We are all just people. Let's get along. :)

Anonymous said...

Did I say I believe it? At least they opened their doors to the outer world. Why so harsh? Not a happy person are you anon 2/14/'2007 2:30.


No I am not angry.

I won't be sucker in.


I believe bigamy/polygamy is against the law of both states, Arizona and Utah.

You can have all the happy smiling faces of wives and children, beautiful homes, weathly husbands but they are breaking the law.


I am sure there are alot of good polygamist, just like good Methodists.

But the Methodists are not breaking the law, last I looked.

It is like making homosexuality common place and normal.

Homosexuality is not normal and neither is polygamy.

Centennial Park and it's residents have their dark dark secrets.

Have you seen Sara Hammon on Banking on Heaven.

It is my understanding her dad was Marion Hammon AKA one of the founders of Shortcreek, and then Centennial Park.

He was a child molester.
Good foundation.

ATAR_i said...

Yes, I saw it. I found it interesting. I wasn't watching it trying to find out why it was wrong and they were lying, or why it was better and they were right.

I watched it like you'd sit at a friends family reunion, just watching the people, watching the interactions. Looking at the things that they perhaps weren't trying to show you, but that you could see just from sitting there.

I was happy that they educated their children, and that the women had choices. Of course, marrying your teacher was probably not culturally odd to them, but for those of us watching outside CP it had shades of impropriety.

The fellow seemed genuine however, and you didn't get the smarmy vibe from him - so the contradiction was interesting. You could see they could not be completely honest, it was too painful. Yes, there was jealousy, but you could see them intellectualizing all the reasons for them not to be jealous (the wives).

Some of the houses were massive and lavish, others quaint and small. It appeared money was not in teaching, but that since the family had been faithful (or they were now on TV) they were getting their house enlarged.

The women seemed to be genuinely choosing to live in polygamy. Would they choose it if it was not the only way to heaven? Good question - I've no idea.

Despite the 'choice' there seemed to be a bit of a contradiction - does the girl choose, does the priesthood choose. It reminds me a bit of a choice one is compelled to accept because the pressure to agree with your spiritual advisors might be incredibly difficult to disagree with.

What did you think of it?

Anonymous said...

What did I think?No matter what type of positive
spin plural groups try to put on their beliefs,The press and the Anti's(Flora,Sara,and their ilk) just use it as an opportunity to ridicule and attack us all.

TBM said...

Thanks for your insight bbgae. That was informative.

ATAR_i said...

10:39 isn't it interesting how some people can always see the negative no matter what is said?

Anonymous said...

5:09 - Well I am not one to condemn anyone for their choices. If someone CHOOSES to live a polygamous lifestyle and they are an adult, that is completely up to them.

I have to say though that you sound VERY judgemental. Mentionening homosexuals. I'm not one, but I do get offended by your comments. There are MANY studies proving homosexuality is not a choice, rather in their genes. I don't think we would see eye to eye on anything really. I give freedom of choice to anyone. As long as it does not harm another.

If no one is hurting me or other people in the world, then why do we care what they do? Just to poke our noses in their business? Sounds like you should worry about yourself more and not about what other people choose.

People can be outstanding citizens even if they don't do exactly what you would do or live exactly how you live. Times are a changing my friend.

ATAR_i said...

The delicate balance between freedom an law must be taken seriously.

Legally marrying two women is illegal, living with two, three or more women is not.

So, in my view, there is nothing technically 'illegal' about the cohabitation.

If, however, parents use this cohabitation to defraud public agencies of funds, by claiming no support from the father, or indeed the absence of a father, that would constitute some sort of illegality.

If one of the partners is underage another problem.

So - I think the sort of polygamy being practiced is 'technically' not illegal, as they are only legally married to one woman.

They just need to make sure they marry women of legal age, and don't have more children then they can support.

Anonymous said...

Who are the current Priesthood Council
of Cenntenial Park?
John Timpson
Jedd Hammon
Clayne Wayman?
Who else?

Anonymous said...

Well Atar_i and 10:01 a.m.

Great posts of "Man" justification of God's Laws.

There is a God.

Polygamy and Homosexuality are both SIN's.

God forgives SIN. God gave man Jesus.

Man Justifies his SIN.

You both did an excellent job of justifying what you think man should do.

You are right 10:01 a.m., we probably would not get along, not my choice but yours. You are so much smarter than me. That's OK.

I believe in God and Jesus and the Bible.

God hates sin and loves the sinner.

But that makes me judgemental so be it.

I love Freedom of Choice if it does not make man SIN.

But your justifications still don't hide the fact Homosexuality and Polygamy are SINS.

5:09 PM

Anonymous said...

5:09

Those things would be SINS (as you put it) if I believed in all the man-written material called "Bibles". Like you have your beliefs, I have mine. Mine (which all of them should) revolve around being respectful to other people, loving them for who they are and believing that if you do good things then good things will come back to you. If I did believe in a God, He would be one of LOVE. Which is really what a God is supposed to be about anyway. Love thy neighbor..no bible says JUDGE thy neighbor. Isn't that his job, if there was a Him in the first place?

I do not judge you for believing your beliefs, nor do I try and push my beliefs on anyone else. If you were my friend or neighbor, I would like you for the person you were unless you were hurting me or others. Which, by the way, you are hurting others by placing JUDGEMENT on them.

I see no harm in allowing people to be who they want to be and believe in what they wish to. As long as everyone has a good heart then what difference does it make what one believes in.

Back to the "Bible" I mentioned earlier..Like Joseph Smith wrote his, any other Bible was written by man. It was translated by man and his translations may not have been what even you or I would have seen in the original writings or story that the "Bible" is written by.

Again, a God does not profess hate in any way, shape or form. And if there were a god alive on earth today I believe he would tell you to love people for who they are. To make the world peaceful and to be kind. And if you're happy with who you are inside, then there isn't any reason to judge another for what they are inside. Only those that are unhappy judge others because it makes the unhappy person have something other than their short comings to focus on.

So, I am not trying go "JUSTIFY" anything to you. Your opinion and mine are very different. You sound hateful, whereas I will accept a person for who they are without judgement.

Who's right? You for reading a "Bible" written by some "Translator" or me for believing that if there were a god he would be about love and acceptance.

In my opinion, I would much rather live in a world following my beliefs instead of yours.

ATAR_i said...

5:09

Coming from a Judeo Christian upbringing I think we share a commonality in the Bible as our source.

I just can't seem to find the 'sin' part in polygamy. Don't get me wrong, as a female - I find it unhealthy and offensive - but that's purely my opinion about the matter.

Clearly in the OT the men had multiple wives, and they were clearly prophets of God. Now in the NT it talks about husbands and wives in a non-plural sort of way - but it doesn't (to my knowledge) specifically elevate a man having more than one wife as a sin.

If I am wrong, please feel free to point this out to me.

Homosexuality as far as men are concerned is quite clear - 'the spilling of the seed' as it were. A big no no. Right up there with lying, murder, lust, envy and the like. However, (and again - I find the act personally distasteful) it doesn't really address lesbianism - however if you can find a specific biblical reference - I would be interested.

Anyhow, do not make the mistake of assuming that your sins are any less offensive than anothers to God. Furthermore someone might consider themselves a homosexual - but might not actually be indulging in homosexual acts. Rather like a heterosexual virgin - if you wish. Definately attracted to the opposite sex, but not engaging in sexual acts.

It's easy to judge, but to quote a wise book 'Judge NOT, lest ye be judged'.

It's ok to express thoughts ideas and opinions that differ - I think it's great. Let's keep the dialogue going.

And lastly, I think your argument against my legal comment was completely off track. YOU specifically mentioned that it was illegal - and I specifically stated how I didn't believe it was.

Had you started off with the SIN argument, you would have received this - and not the legal thing.

But to use the legal argument, and get 'shot down' only to say...how humanistic I am - and it's a sin - well gosh darn it - make up your mind won't you!

: )

Anonymous said...

So atar_i doesn't think polygamy is a sin, eh? You fascinate me!

PB

Anonymous said...

Well Atar_i if I had started with the "Sin Thing" I would of been shot down faster.I just decided to save it for now.

Why do all polygamists from John Taylor to Warren Jeff's "hide" their lifestyle if "they" didn't think it was "illegal."

Why put your candle under a basket?

As for it being a SIN it is. When I have more time, I will share with you with scripture.

As for your comment "Anyhow, do not make the mistake of assuming that your sins are any less offensive than anothers to God".

My sins where offensive to God, but you know what, he doesn't see them anymore, thank God for His Grace and Jesus'Blood Sacrifice.

My dear 3:09 PM

I will take my chances with the man written "Bible" any day over the man written "Book Of Mormon".
At least the biblical names and places can be traced.

But I shared my belief that Polygamy and Homosexuality were SINS and it is very obvious you are very uncomfortable with my observations by calling me judgemental.


You said...I see no harm in allowing people to be who they want to be and believe in what they wish to. As long as everyone has a good heart then what difference does it make what one believes in.

Dear 3:09 with out God's presence and Love in this world man cannot have have a "good heart".

Who is going to monitor the "good hearts" in your perfect world of allowing people to be who they want to be and believe in what they wish to.?

You, Warren Jeffs or the Easter Bunny?

ATAR_i said...

5:09 - I'm not trying to shoot you down, believe me when I first came on this board I blasted through like a tornado - I grew up really right wing, and I hold a lot of those things really tight.

But in all honesty, I had to examine the reasons why I believed the way I did. Was it because of the Bible, or cultural values superimposed upon the Bible.

I swear - if you knew me a decade ago, you would not think my mind possible of even considering anything beyond what I was taught as a child.

I think David, Solomon, Abraham, Jacob and many OT prophets and men of God, were called and lived according to the fullness of their calling. I believe God was pleased with them, and blessed them....and their wives.

Don't get me wrong - I'm totally puritanical about marraige - me and my man - that's it - aint no room for more. I can't conceive of a lifestyle that would bring me to share him with another.

However, if it was not a sin then, and God was not offended by it - what great understanding do I possess, and what revelation do I have that makes it somehow vile now?

Now, legal marriage to two spouses WOULD be wrong, because it's illegal, and because the Bible strictly speaks to 'rendering unto Caesar...etc'. However, the polygamists have found a loophole there.

I think that warrens group does hold their committment to their spouses not as close as they should, which calls into question whether or not they are 'living in sin'. As they don't have a legal wife, and the threads that hold together the fragile unions are made of rice paper, and can disintigrate and reform with another in an instant - their marriages seem sincerely to be sinful in many cases. NOT ALL, just the broken, rebroken, and broken again and again ones.

To me, that's pretty much like sleeping around - it doesn't mean anything legally, or spiritually, there is no committment.

Just my opnions on the matter.

ATAR_i said...

PB really? Why?

What does PB stand for. Honestly, after you tell me, I'll let you know the acronym I know it as. I almost giggle every time I see your sig.

bbgae said...

I agree with atri. It isn't a sin.
As for the other:
Let me put it to you the way my "sister-wife" put it to me, in her own words.
Ahem...
"Do you know why all these women can go from one husband to another and acually love them? It is because of the priesthood the bear. They love the priesthood, and therefore they can love the man...."
But, like so many other things those are just pretty words and not reality.

bbgae said...

My father was a good "priesthood" man and he was kind and understanding. He loved me unconditionally. He still does. My 'ex-husband'was a mean, egotistical, minuplitaing, and abusive #!%$#.
And these were both good priesthood men?
Hmmmmm....

ATAR_i said...

bbgae - I love my father too.

Anonymous said...

To BBGAE...you can smile through a redlight and smile going 90mph down the highway ....BREAKING THE LAW. Does this mean we should throw your sorry butt in jail for it?? You'd be doing as much harm to others for those crimes than the people of Centennial Park with their religious beliefs are.

bbgae said...

Why the hostility? What exactaly was it I wrote that offends you, and we shall discuss it, Anon 10:04. As for the people in Centainal Park, I don't personally know any one of them and I am inclined to not judge them.
However, if someone breaks the law, the should pay the consequence the law requires.
Actions have consequences just like everything else. If a ball goes up, it will come down. Simple science. If you do something, whatever it is, there will be a consequence.

Anonymous said...

Dear Atar_i

I am not offended.

You said "I think David, Solomon, Abraham, Jacob and many OT prophets and men of God, were called and lived according to the fullness of their calling. I believe God was pleased with them, and blessed them....and their wives."

I told you I would get back and explain why I thought Polygamy was a Sin.

Well last night I found a website that can explain more details than posting it here.

This person lived polgyamy.

Please read all of her post.

http://www.shieldandrefuge.org/polyrequired.htm

As for your comment of "To me, that's pretty much like sleeping around - it doesn't mean anything legally, or spiritually, there is no committment."

I belief the terms is fornification or adultry depending on the marital status of the people involved.

In the FLDS world means eternal death, redemption "Blood Atonement".

In God's world SIN, which can be forgiven.

I really hope you read this article slowly and thoughtfully.

5:09 p.m.

bbgae said...

to Anon 10:04:
You do not know me and you do not know how I drive. Although I do admit to smiling while I drive, I can assure you I do not run red light or speed. My husband can attest to this. He has acually ridden with me more times than I can count. He says I drive as cautiously as a granny only a little faster.
Raise your hand, everyone, if you have ever been driving down highway 89 and been nearly blown off the road, or cut off, or witness to a vehicle passing in a no pass zone driven by an FLDS with a God complex of "I am the Lord's chosen so I can drive as fast as I want and He will protect me. God's laws are higher than man's laws."
Me!
Me!
Anyone else?
As far as traffic laws go, I was told if you speed, you will get a ticket. (Or should. The law does it's best, but not everyone is caught. And, thankfully, the officers have been known to be lieniant. Gasp! Imangine that!) If you get enough tickets your licence will be suspended, and if you are pulled over for a traffic violation WHILE you licence is still suspended
THEN you will get to ride in the police car.

ATAR_i said...

5:09 - the title of this article

Is Polygamy Required?

I know you really wanted to use someone elses predigested information to make polygamy a SIN - but this article isn't even addressing that issue.

It's addressing the 'you must have plural wives to get to heaven' belief.

NO ONE in this thread - and certainly not me, is stating that you must (although - someone is bound to come along and state just that...now that I've thrown down the gauntlet).

And, while I will stipulate that the NT does not seem to encourage or promote multiple wives, in fact, I would say the opposite, it encourages and promotes ONE man and ONE woman.

THAT being said - does it go as far as making it a sin. I believe the NT indicates monogamy is the ideal but does it go as far as fobidding polygamy? I don't see that in scripture.

And, as I stated before. The switching partner polygamy as forced on many warrenites, looks like 'sleeping around' or adultry.

5:09 if you're going to discuss your beliefs, you're going to have to think about them, and talk about them, the ones YOU have, and why you have them. Does that one reference in Matthew mean exactly what YOU believe it does?

How big of a deal is polygamy to God, if it is mentioned THAT LITTLE, and actually not even mentioned, but meaning inferred into it.

Remember, David had multiple wives in the Bible, but when he lusted after another mans wife, and took her as his own, he committed adultery - and he was punished for THAT - not because of the other wives.

From THAT union came Solomon, and don't forget the Son of Solomon - WHICH IS ABOUT HIS 141ST WIFE. In our Bible, our holy scripture! And from David and Soloman - Jesus Christ.

How do you feel about the prophets of old? Is the wise man of God allowed 700 wives - isn't that a bit of a man whore? Isn't that how many Solomon had? Honest to goodness it would take two years of nightly sex to even get to every woman! Those are just his wives - he had 300 concubines!

Was Gods offense to Solomons wives, or was it because they turned his heart away from God, to the gods of his foreign wives. It was the latter.

So, I have a very difficult time believing that Gods wrath will be poured down upon the little man in Centennial Park with three wives, when the line of Christ, God's exalted prophets had upwards of 1000 wives without so much as an admonision from the Lord in scripture.

His heart, and his worship towards his God was what our Lord cared about.

ATAR_i said...

sorry about the spelling errors, I typed fast and meant to proofread, but hit 'return' instead of preview.

Anonymous said...

great bbgae...we're ever so thankful you've pointed out the process of traffic violations for us....once again you've dodged the bullet of actually having to back up your opinion with itelligent, ignorant free information. Carry on you just prove my point that much more.

fttc said...

5:09

The article you referred to was supposedly written by a former member of a 'mormon' polygamy group. He has some strange ideas to me about how the ordinance of marriage is performed. It is enough to make me wonder at his claims for understanding. Atar pretty much shot down most of his theories in regards to his interpretation of the scriptures. I would add that his understanding of the rituals within at least the 'priesthood work' from which the FLDS sprung is very limited or severely skewed.

For starters the covenant of marriage used by those who sprang from the 1886 meeting with John Taylor do not include anything but a covenant between the man and the woman. Whether it is plural or not. The other wives do not enter into the covenant with the plural wife. Yet this is the first point that he attacks. The rest is just as twisted and distorted. He makes assumptions from scriptures and uses these assumptions to prove his next point.

bbgae said...

Perhaps I was a little biased in my opinions, but you can hardly call the process of traffic voilations, which I might add YOU started, intelligent free and ignorant. If I got it wrong, by all means, enlighten me. And if you will kindly re-read my 11:31 post, you will see I was unsure which point you wanted me to back up and asked you to tell me so I could. In your failing to tell me, YOU were the one dodging the bullet. What the h--- does traffic have to do with whatever it was you wanted to discuss, anyway?

Anonymous said...

I give up...you're too dumb to continue with

fttc said...

Now THAT's a dodge. There's really nothing ignorant, stupid or dumb in either of your posts. Just a lack of clear communication. At least bbgae is trying to understand.

Anonymous said...

Oh, my word!! Is anybody REALLY THAT STUPID?? bbgae....go back and READ the previous posts!!!!

Read them slowly, out loud, and see if you can understand them a little differently....if not, I suggest you stick to lighter, less stressful reading. Perhaps some nice little Mormon kiddie books....

ATAR_i said...

OK, clearly bbgae is not stupid and neither are you, so stop the name calling. I'm not certain how traffic got people all fired up around here anyhow.

If you wanna talk about traffic - I'd love to be able to go that fast, but there isn't a time during the day where I live where you could go that fast. There are cars on the interstate at all hours.

My commute is enough to give me road rage. A twenty minute drive takes an hour and a half at times.

That said. My husband and I discussed it last night, I rather delved into scriptures after this discussion - what do I believe?

I came up with the overwhelming feeling that God doesn't get nearly as upset about the things we do. Some of the social issues we've made larger than life, is that what he cares about?

Don't get me wrong, I think they are important - but the condition of my heart, my relationship with the creator, that appears to be God's main concern. All other goodness will flow from that right relationship.

So, if too many children and too many wives distract you from time with your God, perhaps THAT is the sin. Not the number of wives, but the distraction.

bbgae said...

LOL. You make me laugh Anon. I'm guessing by your previous posts you are faithful FLDS male. Am I right?
I DO read good little Mormon chilren's books. Every day. (to my children at bedtime.)
I can also assure you that I am very familiar with the FLDS texts. The Bible, the Book of Mormon, and the Student Stars. There are more, but I do not own the books and I am a little rusty. (I have to acually look up the reference I want. I can't quote the precise passage off the top of my head.) I will not attempt to quote it when I cannot back it up.
That being said, let me also tell you that I agree with what Anon who wrote the Bible and the Book of Mormon are man made. I also agree with Atari that the Bible does have scientific proof of the places it mentions. I therefore give up the cry to all you Mormon scientists out there to go out and find us some proof. An Archilogical site of any city will do. But let me also say that I do not like to quote scrpiture and will refrain from it as much as possible.
Atari- Sorry about the trafic thing. I'll be finished with it now. :)
Anon:
You are right, however that I misread the Anon comment I posted about in my first post on this thread. I read the first part, but not the second. I tend to be impatient sometimes. :)
But I still stand by what I wrote before. I refuse to say whether or not there is sin in Cenntanial park. I think it is up to God to judge, and I refuse to spreak about it. I do think though, that their recient efforts to show a good face of Ploygamy to publicity in the face of all the bad publicity genertaed from the FLDS are to be commended. If you are Polygamous, you should be thankful to them for it. You are so eagar to say there is sin. Can you honestly say there is no good as well?
And I did have the right to wonder what precisely it was I wrote that you disagreed with. I wrote about many things. I'm guessing this is the one you meant.

ATAR_i said...

bbgae - I like you.

The Mormon Scientists Speak. I really felt for these guys. Especially Thomas Murphy and the British fellow.

It's a pretty long uTube video but I watched the whole thing. I really wanted to find out what happened to Thomas Murphy - if he was excommunicated. You can see how he wants so badly to be faithful, but it's all crumbling beneath him.

bbgae said...

Thanx Atari!

TBM said...

Do you absolutely require proof before you can believe? Doesn't that rather undermine the concept of faith?

There's no proof outside the Bible that Jesus ever existed.

But there is evidence to support the Book of Mormon. You may be interested by these websites:
http://www.jefflindsay.com/BMEvidences.shtml
http://www.fairlds.org/apol/ai024.html
http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=165

TBM said...

And anon ... are you always this uptight?

You might find your posts would be more influential if you cut out the personal abuse and stopped yelling at everybody. If everyone else disagrees with your opinion, so what? If God is going to hurl all our misguided souls into the deepest levels, how is that your problem?

bbgae said...

Atari- i like you, too. Thanks for the film.
Tbm- thanks for the references.
As far as I am concerned, that is the very definition of faith- beileveing in something that cannot be seen, and all that is written in the Lectures on Faith. But it does make it a little easier to believe something when it has a solid foundation of fact beneth it. As far as I am aware, science and religion have always been at odds. I happen to lean more toward science for myself. Possibly because the shock from leaving my FLDS background and comming into the real world.
I believe everyone is born with a sense of right and wrong, and they shoulg follow their beliefs, whatever they may be. It is right for them, because that is what they believe is right. (This is of course excluding those people who break the law and/ or hurt somenoe else.)

Anonymous said...

TBM - actually, your comment about Jesus is inaccurate. There are several secular writings of his time period outside of the Bible where reference is made to him.

I do not require proof, but the Bible does warn of false prophets. How would I know a false prophet? I cannot take someones word for that.

If they speak lies, wouldn't that be a false prophet?

If what they said was truth, was really a lie, wouldn't that be a false prophet?

If the lamenites were not Jews, and had no civilization, no empire, in fact, they never existed at all - wouldn't that be a lie? It's not that I cannot believe in God, I just can't believe in MAN.

If what JS translated were true - there would have been some sign of it. ONE coin, ONE bone, ONE sword. But truly there is nothing. He says his book is more true than the Bible - yet not one person in the BOM can be shown to have even existed.

They found the grave of Caiphus from the Bible, secular documentation shows the existence of the men in the Bible, the names are the same, the Temples are where they say they are, the seas exist, the land is as described. How is this LESS correct that a 19th century book whose original manuscript cannot even be seen?

TBM - did you watch the movie?

"When a prophet speaketh in the Name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him" (Deuteronomy 18:22).

ATAR_i said...

that last comment was mine.

ATAR_i said...

Secular writings of Jesus They don't prove he was God, only that he did exist, and wasn't a figment of imagination.

Flavius Josephus who lived in 98 AD, a romanized Jewish historian wrote a books on Jewish History for the Roman Empire.

Quote:
"About this time arose Jesus, a wise man, who did good deeds and whose virtues were recognized. And many Jews and people of other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. However, those who became his disciples preached his doctrine. They related that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive. Perhaps he was the Messiah in connection with whom the prophets foretold wonders. [Josephus, Jewish Antiquities, XVIII 3.2]"

This same book also makes reference to the execution of John the Baptist [XVIII 5.2], and James the Just [XX 9.1],

The Talmud makes several historical references to Jesus, his miracles, his crucifixion, the earthquake and tearing in two of the Temple curtain.

In the 2nd century Romans were writing about Christians and Jesus. Pliny the Younger, prodonsul in Asia Minor in 111 AD wrote to Emporer Trajan...

"...it was their habit on a fixed day to assemble before daylight and recite by turns a form of words to Christ as a god; and that they bound themselves with an oath, not for any crime, but not to commit theft or robbery, or adultery, not to break their word, and not to deny a deposit when demanded. After this was done, their custom was to depart, and meet again to take food... [Pliny, Epistle 97]:

The Roman hisorian Tacitus wrote in 115 AD

"The author of the denomination was Christ[us] who had been executed in Tiberius time by the Procurator Pontius Pilate. The pestilent superstition, checked for a while, burst out again, not only throughout Judea...but throughout the city of Rome also... [Tacitus, Annals, XV 44]"

I think that's enough for now. It doesn't prove he's God, only that he did indeed exist, he had disciples, people believed he was God, he did miracles and etc.

FAITH would be ME, believing that what he said was true, and that he was God, and not just a man.

Is it faith or folly to believe that a 1000 year empire existed and there is not one speck of proof, not one coin, not one bone, not one writing, not one document proving the existence of even ONE person in that book. Where are the bodies of the millions slain, where are the remnants of the temple. My guess - they are with the Gold tablets - in JS fantasies.

Anonymous said...

ATAR_i said...
5:09 - the title of this article


OK Atar_i you did not read the post at all.

I thought you where an opened minded person.

Polygamy is a SIN.

ATAR_i said...

It doesn't take an open minded person to believe polygamy is sin.

But, I will state I misquoted above when i said marrige between one man and one woman was optimal.

Seriously - it's not. Being SINGLE is optimal, ONE man and ONE woman is a compromise (if you can't handle being single). ONE man and multiple brides is just further along the continuum.

5:09 dialogue - don't point me to 20 page essays you google.

I love that I'm being called closed minded because I won't say polygamy is a sin - it's the antithesis of closed minded.

You might wanna check out the youtube videos on Westborough Baptist Church, the rhetoric sounds too amazingly similar.

bbgae said...

TBM- If the sites you listed do indeed prove the Book of Mormon to be a true record then your own words cancel themselves out because Jesus is also mentioned in the Book of Mormon. 2 Nephi.

Anon- Did you have a bad experience with polygamy or something? If you have a first hand account of something wrong that happened to you or that you know of, I will belive you, but I still say polygamy and homosexuality are not sins as long as no one is hurt and every one participating in the relationship is an adult and not forced or coerced into it.

Anonymous said...

Well bbgae, no I haven't had a bad experience with either. I know lots of polygmists and even several homosexual men who have since left this earth. Aids kill them.

I think the people of Shortcreek and Centennial Park are good people. But being good won't get you to heaven.

God has define sin, not me.

I beg to differ about no one getting hurt. Lamech was hurt, Abraham was hurt, Jacob was hurt, David was hurt and Solomon was hurt. We are paying for Abraham and Sarah sin with Hagar today, until the end of time. It is called Islam.

God destroyed the earth with a flood, remember? It was because man sexual pleasures ran amuck. Homosexual and polygamy activity was rampant. Just like today.

God loves mankind, He hates SIN.

ATAR_i said...

Abrahams sin was the lack of faith in Gods promise - not the concubine.

I don't disagree God hates sin - but sin is separation from God - and things that separate us from God. Heterosexual behavior can do that as well. Even married, heterosexual behavior...if it keeps you from God, or turns your heart from God - IS sin.

But thanks for the dialogue - I appreciate that.

Anonymous said...

Dear Atar_i

5:09 dialogue - don't point me to 20 page essays you google.


I directed you to a webpage that was put there by a once polygamist woman from Utah.

I thought she explained step by step of polygamy in the Old Testament and thereafter.

I do not think you read it objectively or not at all. I don't think you got past the title.

I do agree with you SIN is separation from God, I see polygamy a sin, just like love of money, or anything keeps your focus off God's plan for your life.

God's plan did not include polygamy or homosexulity, or prositution to be included in His world.

Yes, Abraham's sin was the lack of faith in God's promise. In his lack of faith he accepted Sarah's bondwoman Hagar because he did not wait or believe on God to fulfil His promise. Being Human, Abraham and Sarah took matters into their own hands.

He lived with Sarah for over 80 years before sleeping with another woman. Don't you find that odd, if polygamy was the "norm".

As for God's Chosen Men in the Bible having many wives, God forgave them. It was just a sin with consequences, like all sin.


I could justify polygamy under certain instances like you and others, but I cannot in good conscience.

We will have to agree to disagree.

Here is a YouTube video for you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1cTk2cJQac

Damned To Heaven

The first lady is Sara Hammon. She is holding a photo of her father Marion Hammon, a founder of Centennial Park.


Centennial Park families are not immuned from the scrouge of polygamy.

bbgae said...

Anon:
I rather like your posts today. :)You make a good point. I cannot access your web address. Is there another? Or another addess to the site you were referring to? ( I am a little technologically impaired at times :) .)
I think the idea of sin being what keeps a person from God a rational one. However, I will maintain that the sin was with the individual and not the practice of polygamy or homosexuality.
I HAVE been a personal witness to things in polygamous society. I have seen what is most definitely sin and what is most definitely goodness. I cannot in good concience say the men and women whom I have met who live their life as close to God as they know how (without hurting anyone) and are yet polygamous are sinfull. If there is pain caused of sin, it comes from the individual's sin, and not the group, or religion, or personal beliefs.
If I am still agrivating you on this one, we shall have to agree to disagree and drop it. You can be quite nice when you don't stoop to name calling and I respect you for staning up for what you believe in the face of adversity.

ATAR_i said...

conservative monogomous heterosexual female will agree to disagree <----me

bbgae said...

Ok. Because of the way Atari signed her last post and because I am new and I noticed in previous posts you have all introduced your beliefs to each other I will tell you mine. I am a libral agnostic monogomous. The anon. post on 2/15 @ 3:29 to 5:09 mirrors my own beliefs quite well.
Also, Anon. I would like to apologize for annoying you. That was not my purpose. I wrote about my views on the media comming from Centennial Park AND about FLDS women having husband after husband and the next thing I know someone is yelling at me saying my views would be as hurtfull to society as putting someone in jail for running a red light. Can you wonder why I was confused?
To everyone else, I realize I have made alot of spelling errors, and I apologize for them. I really was educated. :) I promise. I will double check everything before posting from now on.
By the way, the Western Precision building is supposed to be up for sale by the end of the month. The buisness its self has moved to Las Vegas, but the UEP is selling the building. Any thoughts on this?

TBM said...

If what JS translated were true - there would have been some sign of it. ONE coin, ONE bone, ONE sword. But truly there is nothing.

Well, archaeology isn't the fail-safe, all-proving science that Indiana Jones and non-archaeologists makes it out to be. Its limitations are substantial. I have three thoughts on the matter:

In the first place, there are a number of items which may or may not be achaeological evidence for the Book of Mormon. The biggest problem the archaeologists have is, how do they tell if one particular item is of Nephite origin, or from some other culture? If Machu Pichu was what the Book of Mormon calls Zarahemla, how would they know?

In the second place, you're talking about "ONE bone, ONE coin, ONE sword" somewhere on two continents? That's a heck of a big area to be searching for one tiny thing. And if that one sword or whatever happened to be located under, say, Broadway in New York, what's the likelihood of anyone finding it ever? Far less than the chances of it being crushed into dust by a bulldozer, I suspect.

Which leads me onto the third item: Just because it hasn't been found yet doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The Roman ruins of Bath and Pompeii, which are as old as the Book of Mormon cultures, weren't discovered until the nineteenth century. Machu Pichu wasn't discovered until the early twentieth century. If it took that long to discover these major cities, what chance is there for a coin?

Also, cities historically tend to get built on the foundations of older cities. When Troy (also considered a fantasy until it was discovered in the nineteenth century) was excavated, they found no less than seven cities, all built on top of each other, and in a bid to get to the bottom, the excavators actually destroyed all traces of the city conquered by the wooden horse. Perhaps Machu Pichu is built on top on Zarahemla. The only way you'll find out is by demolishing it, and the government of Peru would have a serious problem with that.

Let me make it clear, I'm not saying that Machu Pichu is Zarahemla. Just that an ancient Meso-American city could be without anyone knowing it.

Also, archaeological findings, or the lack of them, cannot be examined in isolation. Historians must look at the archaeology, and compare it to the other evidence. For example, pyramids and traditions of a white god in Central America and Mexico. There's all the evidence mentioned in the websites I listed above.

And, there's the testimonies of twelve people who state specifically that they saw, and even handled, the golden plates on two occasions; and never subsequently retracted their statements, even though most of them fell out bitterly with Joseph Smith. Critics may scoff, but until they can adequately explain this one, it remains powerful evidence

TBM said...

bbgae: If the sites you listed do indeed prove the Book of Mormon to be a true record then your own words cancel themselves out because Jesus is also mentioned in the Book of Mormon

My two statements weren't intended to support each other, but it's a fair point :)

Anonymous said...

FOR THE RECORD BBGAE: "the next thing I know someone is yelling at me saying my views would be as hurtfull to society as putting someone in jail for running a red light. Can you wonder why I was confused?"

My point was not that. I was simply trying to point out that every day we as citizens "break the law" and don't try and tell me you don't. Are we to understand that because of this we should be thrown in jail. Should they have the right to throw us in jail for JAYWALKING? For MOST polygamists less harm is done to others in their choices than for someone rolling through a stop sign or going 5mph over the legal limit. Yet you are so quick to say they should all be thrown in jail for breaking the law. The word charity comes to mind. AND ALSO FOR THE RECORD: SARA HAMMON'S MENTAL STATE SHOULD BE SERIOUSLY IN QUESTION HERE. THE WOMAN IS INSANE! THE APPLE DOESN'T FALL FAR FROM THE TREE...

bbgae said...

TMB- I absolutely agree with you that there may yet be some facts undiscovered about the BOM. I also agree with you that archaeology is not the only way to prove something exists. That is WHY I "gave out the cry" to the Mormon scientists to find more proof. Atari proved that they failed from the DNA angle in her Youtube site, but that does not mean that something else could not be found in the future. I agree that it takes time to find these things. The Bible has been around alot longer than the BOM and scientists have had more time to prove it. By the way, I read a little about the possible Bountiful sites they found. I didn't visit all your sites yet, but I really enjoyed what I did read. I enjoyed Atari's film, too. I love facts! Bring them on!
To Anon.:
Thankyou for clarifying for me. :)
It's nice to see you are willing to defend the polygamous people even if you do think they are sinners.
Allow me to also calrify what I wrote. When I said if you break the law you should be punished as the law allows, that is exactaly what I meant. The polygamous people do not leagally marry their plural wives. Sometiomes they don't leaglly marry their first wives- therefore, as Atari pointed out earlier, they are not breaking the law. They are just cohabitating. Again, that takes polygamy out of the equation. What I meant by "if they break the law they should be punished as the law allows," was this. If ANYONE polygamous or not abuses their wife(s) and children- they should be punished. After a fair court trail, of course. Abuse is against the law. If ANYONE is guilty of incest, they should be punished as the law allows. And if ANYONE is guilty of fraudulent activities, they should be punished ACCORDING TO THE LAW. Now, since the law does not really put people in jail for running red lights or jay-walking you cannot say this is what I meant. The key phrase here is "as the law allows." I will also say that the law does not always get it right. Sometimes innocent men are accused and punished. I think you will agree with me that this is not right. If you have a problem with the law maybe you should seek employment in the government? (I mean no offence by this.) :)

Anonymous said...

Dear TMB,

As a Jewish guide in Israel if he recogizes any of the names in the Book of Mormon? He will say NO.

Names have roots. Your last name can be traced to it's origin.

Can the origin of names in the Book of Mormon be traced back to somewhere or something if the occupants where Jewish?

bbgae said...

Anon. 2/19 10:24- Since it is obvious you and I have a communication problem, I think I had better specify what I meant by that last comment. I do not mean to imply that you have a problem with the law, but I think if someone does, they should do something about it by working for the government so they can make it right.

ATAR_i said...

bbgae, don't stress, we step all over each others toes, but at the end of the day shake hands. I respect the individuals in here, and have enjoyed chatting with them.

I'd be thrilled to have coffee with you, fttc, TMB or any of the other intelligent, articulate, humorous individuals in here....that being said...

Is that the best you have TBM?

Excavate the Hill Cumorah. Didn't millions of warriors die there. Didn't they have armour, spears, arrows, skeletons, probably carried some coins.

Wouldn't any archaelogist (not employed by the LDS), just shake their head and say it was not possible to have that size and type of society, without any residual archealogical remains.

No skeletal remains, no residual DNA, no temple ruins, no smeltering facilities. Not to mention. They didn't have the type of animals described, the crops described, the metals, and of course the coup de gras - the DNA.

bbgae said...

:) <--- This is me no longer stressing. I like everyone here, too. That is why I stopped posting anon. and signed up with the administrator.

TBM said...

11.57: Ask a Jewish guide in Israel if he recogizes any of the names in the Book of Mormon? He will say NO.
This may surprise you, but about a half of the names in the BoM are common to both the BoM and the Bible. Of those that are unique to the BoM, many bare a strong resemblance to names of Middle Eastern origin. The following web page addresses your exact question:
http://ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=366

I guess my riposte should be, How would an uneducated subsistence farmer from a small town near Canada in 1830 have known about the structures of semitic proper nouns? Can you answer me that?

Atar_i: "Nothing illustrates better than archaeology the inadequacy of human knowledge at any given time. It is not that archaeology is less reliable than other disciplines, but simply that its unreliability is more demonstrable." Hugh Nibley, Archaeology and our religion

Like I said above, archaeological findings, or the lack of them, cannot be examined in isolation. You need to look at the other, non-archaeological evidence also, and there's quite a lot of that. I don't know the answers to your questions. You're asking the wrong person. I know something about it, but what you're looking for is an experienced expert in Mormon archaeology, and that's certainly not me.

For a thorough, scholarly analysis of the evidence for the Book of Mormon, including archaeological findings, and responses to questions such as yours, I recommend Hugh Nibley's "Lehi in the Desert". I read it years ago and found it fascinating. I wish I still had a copy. It's available from BYU Bookstore

http://www.byubookstore.com/ePOS?this_category=Front%20Page&store=439&item_number=0%2d87579%2d132%2d8&form=shared3%2fgm%2fdetail%2ehtml&design=439

Hugh Nibley's full essay on the limitations of archaeology is found here:
http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=transcripts&id=51

My wife thinks I should also point out that Mormonism is as much about faith as any other religion. I presume you, as a Christian, do not believe because of proofs of Christianity's truth. You believe because you have faith. Ditto with Mormons. Yes, historical evidences are interesting, but that's not why we believe.

TBM said...

BTW atar, thanks for the quotes of non-Biblical references to Jesus. I wasn't aware of those. I know very little about the Roman historians. I wonder to what extent Tacitus and such examined history as a modern discipline. That is, did they have access to official records and eye-witness statements? Or were they just recording what they'd been told, to provide background for the history of Rome's subsequent persecutions of the Christians?

Anonymous said...

TBM, you remind me of the catholic church that refused to accept the sun as the center of the solar system, and astronomy got so wild with epicycles upon epicycles because they had to make the evidence match the "revealed word". Just like you want the "evidence" to match the "word", and will smear archaeology with doubt to try to force it into your impossibly complex model.

ATAR_i said...

TBM, I've included enough links to people who had a large amount of faith.

Xenu and the Thetans - millions of devoted followers. NO archaelogy - but LOTS of faith.

Suicide to get a ride on a spaceship hiding behind the Hale-Bopp comet - NO archaelogy - but LOTS of faith.

There's no lack of faith - there's no lack of unique ideas for gods and religions. What makes one real, and the other - not real. I guess you have to decide what you believe.

Is there any sort of evidence of Xenu or Thetans? The BOM used a few Biblical names, but any name that exists in the BOM that doesn't exist in the Bible - just doesn't have any sort of provenance to it.

I guess it's your issue to confront, and maybe some day you will want to take it on and look at it. Maybe not right now, maybe this isn't the right time.

Anonymous said...

All: Beware of 'facts' from the FARMS website. These people have a history of starting with the end of the story and making up the middle part.

TBM: In his remarks suring the 1988 General Conference, the President of the Church stated that they have not found any archeological evidence to support the BOM. Several archeologist and regular people with strong faith have left the church after spending several months to years in South America looking for evidence and not finding anything.

I was taught from a very young age (FLDS) that after the Nephites came to the Americas, they populated the land north of the narrow strip of land (North America). North America grew so large in population that they stripped the land of all the trees. Put this in terms of the population we have today and how many trees we have left. This would be the same time frame that Mesa Verde, in southern Colorado, was populated. Yet they can follow, through archeology, the progression and movement of the Mesa Verde Indians from their cliff dwellings down into the high deserts of New Mexico.

The war at Hill Kumorah (sp) never happened. The graveyard of 275,000 bodies would have been uncovered (an LDS estimate of the number of warriors) . The hill is still there, so the graveyard would be also.

TBM said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
TBM said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
TBM said...

First of all, please accept my apologies for the deleted posts above. There isn't an "edit" option on this blog to correct your mistakes (although that would be less of a problem if I learned how to use the "preview" button!!)

Secondly, people seem to be missing my point, so I guess I didn't express it too well. I'll try to be clearer.

I fully accept that no archeological evidence conclusively supports the Book of Mormon, although I do like the line from Hugh Nibley's essay, "If the great Sir Arthur Evans decided eighty years ago that the Minoans and Mycenaeans were not Greeks, then evidence discovered today must be discounted if it shows they were Greeks". I wonder how much Nephite evidence is discarded by archeologists who are convinced that Nephites never existed.

Archeology is at best a very inaccurate science. It's largely conjectural and isn't measured the way, for example, that meteorology is -- and how often are the weather forecasts wrong? If the weather forecasters so often draw the wrong conclusion using all those fantastically precise instruments and mathematical formulas, how often must the archeologists, who just look at a chipped rock and try to guess what it might have been used for, be wrong?

Therefore, you cannot point to archeology alone, and examine it without any other historical evidence, and draw conclusions from it.

Equally therefore, you cannot point to a lack of archeological evidence and say that this is proof that something did not exist. Troy was assumed to have been a myth for thousands of years until it was discovered. The Hittites were assumed to have been a Biblical myth for thousands of years until 1929, since when they have been shown to have been one of the greatest civilizations ever to have existed. There will always be a lack of archeological evidence until you find it (surely you're not suggesting that in twenty-first century, there is nothing left to discover?) and a strength of non-archeological evidence can indicate the veracity of something as well.

There is significant non-archeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon.

Anon 11.34: These people have a history of starting with the end of the story and making up the middle part.
So what? What scientist doesn't? You think scientists just play with stuff just to see what happens? You think that when the quantum physicist goes to Congress and asks for X billion dollars of taxpayers' money to build a particle accelerator, and Congress asks why, the scientist replies, "I don't know. It could be cool"? Every scientist of every discipline (including archeologists) starts a project with a conclusion that he hopes to justify.

I'm sorry 11.34, but that criticism is just silly.

I can't comment on what the FLDS teach. The LDS church doesn't attempt to comment on where the Nephites are supposed to have settled. That's FARMS' job.

TBM said...

Aaaaaarrrggghhhh!!!!! WHAT THE HECK IS UP WITH THIS *@#&~!* BLOG????? First it won't let me delete my previous post without singing up to a new google account that I don't need and don't want. Now that I've done that, it's removed my delete option altogether!

And signing in with Google is more complicated than it was before!

A plague on Google! Why can't they just leave stuff alone?

TBM said...

Okay, I figured it out finally. Man that was hard work! The Help page was about as much use as a chocolate heat insulator.

ATAR_i said...

I can't delete my posts - AND I am signed into the new Google - which makes me unhappy too!

I think I stated before it's not just archeology.

It's no DNA evidence
It's no Literary evidence
It's no Linguistic evidence

Basically - every way in which we know something really happened.

It's like a murder with no body, and no one who actually knew the victim, or saw the murder. Just someone who DREAMED the murder happened.

Thomas Murphy didn't start at the end.

Anonymous said...

tbm, is that any way for an elder to talk? remember," thou shalt avoid even the appearance of evil"


uncaduff.

bbgae said...

It's ok, TMB. You aren't the only one having problems. Administrator is working on it. Take a deep breath and let it out slowly....... :)
Anon. 2/19 11:34- I like you. Have you always been this logical or is it just a pleasant biproduct of leaving the 'work'?

TBM said...

You're right, uncaduff, so right. But given that Google is a tool of the devil, of course it is designed to corrupt the Elders of Israel.

Anyway, wasn't it Oscar Wilde who said that the best way to handle temptation was to submit? And he should know. He did a lot of submitting! :-)

Anonymous said...

tbm, id like to meet you but, bring a friend...if you come alone I'm afraid you'll drink all my beer!


uncaduff

TBM said...

Atar_i: It's no DNA evidence
It's no Literary evidence
It's no Linguistic evidence


I don't know the first thing about literary or linguistic evidence. As regards DNA, I'm even less a geneticist than I am an archeologist. But from what I've read of the studies of people who know a lot more about it than I, I understand there is a particular genetic aberation called "haplogroup X" which is found among Native Americans, and also in Finland, Italy and Israel, but NOT in eastern Asia, where indigenous Americans are supposed to have originated.

It boggles my mind even trying to comprehend how they figure this stuff out, but hagiogroup X is believed to have been introduced to the Americas roughly 30,000 years ago (give or take a mere few thousand years!). So haplogroup X does not prove that the Nephites existed, although it does support the Book of Mormon story of the Jaredites.

What haplogroup X does prove is that pre-historic migrations from Europe or the Middle-East to the American continent did occur, and that native Americans are not solely descended from east-Asians, but do have DNA that can be traced to the Holy Land.

http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDSFAQ/DNA.shtml

TBM said...

And uncaduff, how do you know my friend wouldn't have drunk all your beer before I even found out where you hid it?

Anonymous said...

Not bad, tbm, not bad. One gene out of 23 that made its way into a few native Americans and a few modern Jews. Not bad. Keep going with your insurmountable evidence.

Anonymous said...

Oops; I meant 46; genes are in 23 pairs.

Anonymous said...

bbgae:
(11:34) I should have been from Missouri, the show me state.

tbm: I'm glad you didn't argue that FARMS makes up the middle part. Its interesting that Jeff Lindsay can review the data on DNA and come to a completely different conclusion than several other noted scientists, both LDS and other. I know where to file his conclusions.

FARMS is the LDS church's way of communicating without a church official calling a press conference. We all know where FARMS is based/located, if the church didn't like what they were spewing they would pull the funding.

--There is significant non-archeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon-- What is it? Don't copy a bunch of URLS, and please don't say that its 10 people who signed affidavits that they saw the plates. If warren told 10 of his followers to sign such a document they would do it in a heartbeat. Its not just FLDS. Pres of LDS church could do the same thing. Any leader with a religious vise over the salvation of his congregation has the same power, from the Pope to warren to David Koresh, to Jim Jones, to the wacko's in California who committed suicide a few years ago trying to hook up with a UFO.

Go back to the BOM and sync up a few dates. The Nephites were supposed to have been here less than 2000 years ago. Geologically speaking, that isn't very much time at all. And not much has happened (geologically) during that time to bury any evidence that would be left from that many people.

When it comes down to it, there is no evidence that BOM is true, there is substantial evidence that it is a fraud, and all you are left with is your faith and belief that it is true. The attitude of "don't bother me with the details, just tell me I'm going to Heaven" is enough "faith" for a lot of people. And that attitude plays right into the hands of religious zealots who are paving the path to Heaven with b_llsh_t.

I used to not think about the details....but now I don't have that luxury....I'm ex-FLDS.

LTG

ATAR_i said...

It's been a great discussion - and I've honestly thought a lot about it in my off time.

I've never really had a taste for beer - but I love a good cup of coffee. And, I know it's trashy, but I love coffeemate. Around where I live it's raw sugar and half and half in a cute cup - but Ohhhh I love my coffeemate.

Anonymous said...

tbm; 6:21 he would for sure, if you were to get there late!

Anonymous said...

atar-i I use half& half.

tbm, that last anon was me.

uncaduff

TBM said...

One gene out of 23 that made its way into a few native Americans and a few modern Jews.
Its interesting that Jeff Lindsay can review the data on DNA and come to a completely different conclusion than several other noted scientists

Haplogroup X predates modern times. The point is, there is DNA evidence that supports the Book of Mormon. And if Jeff Lyndsay disagrees with other scientists (like I said, I'm not a geneticist, and I don't know enough about it to comment), what's strange about that? Scientists do that all the time. Have you seen "House" on TV? If two doctors can look at the same symptoms and diagnose different illnesses, why should it surprise you that scientists can disagree about the same evidence?

When I was a business major, the joke was always that the fastest way to start a fight was to stand three economists in the same room and tell them to come to an agreement. It's not very funny. Business doesn't lend itself to great humor.


There is significant non-archeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon-- What is it?

Entire volumes have been written about it. It's been the subject of academic dissertations. You expect me to write it all on this tiny little blog? If you read the URL's I quote, you'll have the answer to your question.

As for the testimony of the witnesses, that is incredibly important. In the first place, twelve people is the number required by the justice system to establish the truth of a given question. In the second place, although it might be argued that the witnesses initially supported Joseph Smith out of goodwill, all that goodwill disappeared in later years. Martin Harris, Oliver Cowdery and the Whitmers had no reason to continue supporting Joseph Smith after Joseph Smith excommunicated them. But they all stuck to their story throughout their entire lives.

So there's no reason to assume that their statement was a lie, and there is no other credible explanation. Joseph Smith clearly did not have the resources to manufacture real gold plates. The witnesses would probably not have been deceived by cheaper metal like brass. Identical simultaneous hallucinations are unknown in psychology. Hysteria does not manifest itself identically on separate occasions. There is no evidence at all that Joseph Smith had any sort of hypnotic powers (hypnotism was in any case unknown at the time). As Sherlock Holmes would have said: "When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth"


FARMS is the LDS church's way of communicating without a church official calling a press conference. We all know where FARMS is based/located, if the church didn't like what they were spewing they would pull the funding.

What a ridiculous comment! The world hardly sits on tentahooks waiting for the pearls of wisdom to fall from the lips of FARMS! It's a bunch of bearded academics debating the implications of a brick. It's men who can't get dates arguing the precise age of a piece of paper. It's women who wear sensible shoes getting exited about a dirty coin. It's funny that you have this idea that FARMS is this mighty bureau of propaganda. They do some interesting research and add their conclusions to the pool of possible explanations. They publish heavy papers that daunt all but the dedicated. If the church wants publicity for its claims, it would do better just to call the press conference.

ATAR_i said...

TBM - I can't in good conscience continue the conversation with you regarding this matter. It would be cruel.

I know you to be an intelligent, articulate, thoughtful man - but you have abdicated on this issue.

I would love to have this conversation with you at a later date though, when you have been able to spend some time seeking to verify independently some of the stances you take.

Until then, my posts feel slightly cannibalistic, and I don't like that. But you make it too easy.

bbgae said...

I will gladly have a beer or a coffee with any of you! If it's beer, I think we should also order pizza. If it's coffee, I'll bring some tasty herbal tea for TMB, orange jasmine, or raspberry zinger, or something.
I like coffeemate, too, Atari. I don't understand the trashy thing. Woul you explain?

ATAR_i said...

Where I live you see coffeemate at the 7-ll - in a gallon size containers with a push down pump. Its the creamer choice for truckers I guess.

If you go into the shi shi coffee shops where everyone talks with a slightly crisp accent, and has manicured nails and jeans that look as if they've been ironed - you'll find raw sugar and half and half.

Don't get me wrong, I love those places, but I tend to buy the same drink down the road for half the price. The baristas smoke like chimneys and have raspy voices, piercings and tatoos - but I have a hard time paying double if I'm not staying to sit in the plush oversize chairs by the fire.

I love my drip in the morning, and so I buy a few coffeemate flavors every week, the favorites, and one or two new ones if they come out. I can't help it - the truckers and I agree on this one.

TBM said...

Atar_i: jeans that look as if they've been ironed
They probably were!

baristas
Is it just me, or is that genuinely the most absurdly pretentious job title in the world?

:-)

Anonymous said...

There is evidence the sun orbits the earth. I can see it plain as day every time I get up.

Now, the Catholic Church did just that. They forced astronomy to fit their doctrine. Simple elliptical orbits around the sun were allowed for explaining planetary motion; instead, it had to get very complicated with epicycles upon epicycles.

The grasping at straws makes me think that eventually, we will realize that the rocks the Brother of Jared used were actually nuclear propulsion devices, and the Jaredite History took place on Mars. Nephi's ship was also a rocket; that's why his brothers told him he couldn't build a ship. Hagath the curious man actually took a rocket ship back to earth and was never heard of again.

Hmm, still doesn't work. Let's complicate the model until it does.

Anonymous said...

typo--"simple elliptical orbits around the sun WEREN'T allowed..."

Anonymous said...

anonymous! that explains that typo,"reformed Egyptian"in the book of Mormon,it should be "reformed Martian!

uncaduff

Anonymous said...

TBM - : )

I cannot iron my jeans - I just can't, it's like dry cleaning a sweatshirt. However, I do have friends who dry clean *everything*. And yes, they do look crisper than me.

Theres this other part of me, sort of at war with the discount coffee and iron my own clothes girl. The other girl wants a weekly french manicure, dry cleaned clothes and a housekeeper. The good news is, I don't have to make a choice. Discount girl wins - we're in the middle of this massive addition and then a complete remodel of the old farmhouse.

So....I work, and dust, and cook, and drive and believe it or not - in my spare time argue with complete strangers for fun - HOW odd am I?

But, this past week I had this epiphany after an experience at work. This darn blog has helped me not get so riled up when someone disagrees with me. It's helped me articulate feelings, and dissect issues and respond better the first time.

So I lift my glass to you you guys, you have made an impact on me.

I wonder what OTS is up to?

bbgae said...

I hate to iron. I avoid it whenever possible.

I also flip between discount girl and sophisticated godess. Discount girl is currently winning with me, too, because of college and raising kids.

I hope next week is better for you. You can argue with THIS complete stranger any time you want. :)

TBM said...

Ummm ... I don't get your point, 7.56. Last thing I knew, we were debating the evidence for and against the Book of Mormon's veracity. What has the Roman Catholic church to do with anything? I don't see how it's even relevant.

TBM said...

bbgae, I LOVE ironing!!! I iron all the time. I know, it's kinda strange for a big, butch, spud-munchin' Idaho boy. But I keep a stereo in the kitchen, and I get to rock out all my music. Confederate Railroad, Alabama, Neal McCoy, Gretchen Wilson, Randy Travis -- all the stuff that my classical-loving wife can't stand. But as long as I'm doing the ironing, I get the freedom to play as long and loud as I want!

ATAR_i said...

What? No Dixie Chicks? : )

I didn't realize you were from Idaho - whereabouts?

BTW - my post above had no sig - I'm discountgirl who can't iron.

bbgae said...

tmb- Dude! That is so awesome. You must do a good job if your wife lets you take the iron AND the radio when she knows exactally what you are going to do with them. My husband can iron too, and while I usually do iron something when it needs it, there's just something nice about a man who can iron. Several times we have been running late and my husband would go in the laundry room and iron his own shirt and slacks while I was putting on my make-up, and thus save us.

Anonymous said...

tbm,

The bit on the Catholic Church is simply an analogy. The Catholic Church forced the "evidence" to fit the "model", rather than creating a model to fit the evidence.

I see the Mormon Church doing the same thing with the Book of Mormon. They try to force the evidence to fit the B.O.M, rather than letting the evidence form a model of the history of the native Americans.

Anonymous said...

@ atari

Why don't you just sign your posts in case the blog forgets who you are? It might save having to post again to confess.


~sum schmuck

ATAR_i said...

Schmuck,

Since you haven't 'officially' logged in, I'm guessing you don't understand the 'issues' that have arisen since Google took over blogger.

I'll take this opportunity to educate you, so you don't have to feel so hostile.

My blogger username and password are filled in, and the circle is checked, indicating I want to post as my official self. That has always worked in the past.

When the switch came, I faithfully developed another login for google, and merged the blogger and the google 'person'.

However, apparently that is not good enough at this point (putting your name and password in) as the sites must not have completely merged. It doesn't make you aware that you are not logged in to google, until you have already posted, and there is no 'identity' to your post - you are posted anonymously despite having already put your name and password in.

There is a small link, which I have now seen exists when you haven't logged in to google. Google logs you out which I am not used to, and thus, I might post and then not realize I am no longer logged in.

I cannot for the life of me understand why they have the text boxes for log in and password if they don't work.

I have never seen you post before 'Sum Schmuck' I'm guessing you don't always sign your posts - why?

Anonymous said...

tbm:

--There is significant non-archeological evidence to support the Book of Mormon-- What is it?

Entire volumes have been written about it. It's been the subject of academic dissertations. You expect me to write it all on this tiny little blog? If you read the URL's I quote, you'll have the answer to your question.--

Entire volumes have been written by Mormons, nothing by non-Mormons that validate stories or evidence.

--FARMS is the LDS church's way of communicating without a church official calling a press conference. We all know where FARMS is based/located, if the church didn't like what they were spewing they would pull the funding.

What a ridiculous comment!--

Then don't ever again use them as a source or reference for information arguing the authenticty of the BOM. I have a lot of family in the LDS church and they, as well as people like you out in blog-land, continuously bring up FARMS as a reference. You are right, not a lot of people outside of the Church pay much attention to FARMS, but the Church pays very close attention. There are several excellent ex-FARMs historians who have made the mistake of writing excellent arguments in contradiction to the Church written history. They have been dis-fellowshipped, excommunicated, or have left on their own. A lot of those still love the Church, they just can't believe the Church is trying to pull the wool over everyone's eyes..still.

Martin Harris- I'm surprised you used him as an example. He left Joeseph, then joined more churches and had more stories about the plates than Anna Nichole had boyfriends. Whitmere's testimony differed each time he told it also. It's interesting that all three original witnesses left the Mormon church and tried to start churches of their own. They all had visions of their own before Joseph came along, and the vision they had with Joseph was very much spiritual...they didn't actually see the plates, they saw a vision of the plates. But it depends on which story of theirs that you want to believe as it changed with the telling.

DNA: Despite what you have seen on the OJ trial, DNA is very accurate. Results are in the 99%+ accuracy range on American Indian heritage, and it ain't Nephite.

LTG

TBM said...

atar_i: I didn't realize you were from Idaho - whereabouts?

I was raised in Rexburg, about 40 miles north of Idaho Falls. It's the kind of small town that has about a hundred LDS churches, and one non-LDS (Presbyterian) church. And it probably wouldn't exist at all if Brigham Young University didn't have a campus there. Yeah, it's pretty Mormon. In fact, I think I was about thirteen before I realized non-Mormons even existed!

But now I'm really going to surprise you. I've been living and working in Britain the last ten years, which is why my posts look like they're always posted really early in the morning. I work for a computer consultancy, and there's not a whole lot of them in Idaho. Maybe one day, somebody will invent a potato-powered PC, and then Idaho will be laughing. Until then, I just have to find work elsewhere. [sobs] I miss my home so much! [curls into foetal position and sucks thumb]
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
11.22: the Catholic Church is simply an analogy. The Catholic Church forced the "evidence" to fit the "model", rather than creating a model to fit the evidence.

Now I understand. Thank you for clarifying.

Of course the Mormon church believes the the Book of Mormon is true, and tries to interpret everything from that perspective. That's what faith is all about. It wouldn't be much of a religion if it assumed its central thesis was false! That would be like the muslims saying Mohammed was just some guy, or Christians acting like Jesus never existed.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
LTG: Entire volumes have been written by Mormons, nothing by non-Mormons that validate stories or evidence.
So what's your point? Does the defense attorney argue the prosecution's case?

As for these "several excellent ex-FARMs historians", who were they, and in whose opinion were they excellent? Can you demonstrate that you know anything like enough about their individual cases to be able to comment on the reasons they quit or were fired? How do you reconcile their disillusion with all the other FARMS historians (probably the vast majority of them) who contentedly and enthusiastically continue to uphold the church?
Oh yes, of course. We're all brainwashed and held in emotional and mental slavery, right?


DNA ... ain't Nephite

I never said it was. I actually said the DNA evidence doesn't prove the Nephites existed; just that a small amount of native American DNA can be traced to the Holy Land.


Martin Harris ... left Joeseph, then joined more churches

That's exactly my point! He ceased to have any reason to maintain his testimony that he had seen the golden plates. But whatever different points he and all the other witnesses chose to emphasize as they told and retold their story over the years, not one ever denied that they'd seen and even handled the gold plates.
And given the way that ex-Mormons always get so bitter and bore the world to death with their whining, that is really surprising!

So I'm afraid that rather puts the burden of proof upon you. You have no evidence that they DIDN'T see the gold plates. It's up to you to prove that it was all a conjuring trick, or that Joseph Smith somehow hypnotized the witnesses years before hypnotism was even known, or it was all some sort of mass hallucinatory phenomenon as yet undiscovered by psychology. Because unless you can demonstrate something like that, you only have two choices:

a) Accept that there genuinely were gold plates, shown to the witnesses by an angel, that there were Nephites, that the Book of Mormon is scripture, that Joseph Smith was everything he claimed to be, and that God is a Mormon

b) Or you can act like a kid, stick your fingers in your ears, and yell, "I'M NOT LISTENING, I'M NOT LISTENING, NANANANANANA"

Anonymous said...

tbm I have always wondered, if there were gold plates,why didn't the prophet re translate the lost manuscript,rather than leave it out of the book. I was never quite satisfied with his explanation. it seems that God is smart enough to foil such a plot,as changing the manuscript and comparing it to the second translation to make it seem fraudulent. I would think this record would be far to important for him to let that happen.

just some things Ive always wondered about.
uncaduff.

Anonymous said...

tbm - I remember that you are in Brittain - and a bishop too right?

atar

TBM said...

a bishop too right?
No. Just an Elders Quorum President -- which is quite enough work!

uncaduff: why didn't the prophet re translate the lost manuscript ... it seems that God is smart enough to foil such a plot
Of course He is. And why He chose not to, I don't know, any more than I know why He doesn't prevent tsunamis, famine or babies dying of AIDS. But not only is god all-powerful, He is also all-wise. It is not the place of mortals, with our limited perspective and understanding, to question God's motives or to dictate what God should do. That would be blasphemy.

Anonymous said...

I knew it was something like that.

When you say computer guy what do you mean, is it a certain type of programming, or networking, or something altogether different?

I love my little puter (but I'm a mac girl).

atar

bbgae said...

TMB- So, are you in England because of your job, or your position in the church, or something else?

TBM said...

I'm a programmer. And even my wife calls me a geek!

And yes, I probably could find plenty of programming jobs in Idaho. The real reason I'm here is that I studied a post-graduate course at the University of Wales, Cardiff, and somehow never got round to going home again! Now we've been here over ten years, and the kids are 9 and 7, my wife feels strongly that returning to the US would be too disruptive. She may be right - the kids are just as English as a muffin!

bbgae said...

My husband is a computer programmer, too. He's almost finished with his bachelor's in Computer Science.

lissa said...

does ayoe have a copy of the dvd banner of heaven that they are willing to loan?

lissa said...

sorry, I meant does anyone have banking on heaven to loan?

Anonymous said...

lissa, I do,cut me an e mail, uncaduff@yahoo.com

ATAR_i said...

I wish blockbuster would carry that movie. I think we should all write to them and encourage them to carry that movie.

TBM said...

Why not just read the book?

Anonymous said...

There's no book. Just a documentary DVD you can purchase online at http://www.bankingonheaven.com

ATAR_i said...

what book?

Banking on heaven is not in book form - it's a documentary.

I OWN the movie, plus a dozen or so other books on polygamy, mormonism and etc - I'm not lacking for books.

I was strictly speaking about it being nice for others to be able to see without purchasing the film.

I really am suprised I had to justify that comment TBM - you came back with more pluck than you led on....

Anonymous said...

Why not just write the book?

Heck, you could even just make half of it up.

ATAR_i said...

Writing a fictional work on polygamy doesn't really tap into creative drive.

Anonymous said...

I don't know about that. From the stories I have read and heard coming from Flora, Pam, Pennie and others, I'd say they have been very creative. However, I'm not quite sure I understand what drives them unless it is a need for attention. From one who knows the other side of the story I have to say they have come up with some fantastic fiction about polygamy.

TBM said...

Sorry, my mistake! I was thinking of "Under the Banner of Heaven"

Anonymous said...

11:02-Flora and the others may have exaggerated a little, and you may have the inside view, but do you KNOW what they went throught, and do you have an outside view as well?
Or, are you simply calling them liers because they are evil apostates and that was waht you were taught- an apostate is a lier?
I'll tell you what I think is driving them, the need to see justice!

Anonymous said...

I do know Flora’s story. I know the people involved. It wrenched one’s soul to think of such abuse. If my love could reach out and erase that horrible blight in her life I would gladly extend it.

However, her experience does not justify extreme exaggeration and total untruth about others who have no connection to such abuse, namely the majority of the polygamous people.

Those exaggerations have tainted the minds of the public and they stand in the way of justice.

Your remark about my having been taught that apostates are evil and liars proves my point. That idea was obviously influenced by someone’s exaggerations because it is not true.

How can justice truly be served by a lie? Truth and justice have to go hand in hand or neither one is served.

Anonymous said...

I don't know about Pam, but Pennie and Flora have excellent insight as to what goes on in the bowels of the flds godhead. I can't exactly relate to their experiences because I was a male growing up in a male dominated religion, but it couldn't have been that much fun. I remember when the accusations were flying and when Flora moved to U.Freds. I always wondered why the people involved didn't get booted and jailed like some of the other "men" that did the same thing. Maybe the guilty are gone now, if they are that's great. The flds godhead should have never have allowed them to stay.

I don't know that much about Pennie's situation, but if it was anything like Flora's, it was total HELL. When both of these girls were very young, about 15-16, I heard (with my own ears from a dyed-in-the-wool FLDS woman) that what they needed was to learn to submit to the priesthood and become a good wife to a priesthood man; that was the only way they were going to be happy.

But they had already tried that. And it appears they make themselves happy exposing the flds godhead for the frauds they are. If it takes a few embelished stories to get the media to respond, then tough s__t. Their stories aren't near as malicious as the lies they were told growing up, and the flds godhead hasn't let up on their lies.

Flora and Pennie; I haven't seen either one of you for over 15 years, but keep the pressure up! Don't let the Bastards win!

LTG

Anonymous said...

@ ltg

a few embellished stories??? What a line of crap.

Two negatives might make a positive in math, but two lies do not make a truth, and two (or more) liars do not change the truth.

Maybe you really have been gone too long.

Anonymous said...

11:17 & 10:34- My comment asking you if you thought Flora was a lier because she was an aposate and you were taught apostates were liers -and believe me, I can quote this for you- also came from an inside view, not from the 'crap' Flora and the others spread around.

BTW- you just proved me right by your post above.

It has been my experience that the longer I've been gone, the more truth I see in their 'stories'. If that makes me a lier, too, so be it.

Anonymous said...

anon 10:34 apparently you aint been gone long enough.

Anonymous said...

How long should I be gone to disregard the life long pain that starts when a father rapes their daughter? I guess a mouthy 10 year old with an attitude deserves it, right?

LTG

ATAR_i said...

(satire)
Well, if a father rapes a daughter she is an apostate and a liar if she runs away.

If she does not run away she is victimized (raped) over and over again.

So the message is - if you run away from evil - you will go to hell.

If you allow evil to steal and torment you - you will go to heaven.

(end of satire)

If that aint confusing - I don't know what is.

bbgae said...

Love the satire!