Monday, January 29, 2007

Does anyone want to tackle this one?

This question was posed on a thread and I thought that maybe it would be a good topic. I took jqseer as asking some one in the FLDS to respond so I didn't as I am no longer a member. Perhaps someone could help him understand that has been there since I have....

"I read some of the comments from other people on your other posts.... i just had a couple of questions.... do people really get kicked out? or are there a set of standards that if they are not followed the get the choice to straighten up or get out? with you having been a part of them or have family in there i thought you might have an idea and it seems people post on that are currently a member. if you can or will help me understand this or anyone that reads this comment can email me at drag8racer@yahoo.com. put something in the comment line so i wont accidently delete it. the info i get is completely confidential and i will be the only one to read it... im just trying to understand distant relatives. my grandpa and some barlows and zittings worked together in the 30's and things so... "

104 comments:

ATAR_i said...

A call for objective information has gone out. It's from someone new to this forum, and not aware of all the posts in the past.

If you have information, and person experience, first had knowledge - it would be really helpful to him/her.

ogre said...

Well, from my experience in the past. When I left, I was called on the phone and told I had to profess my loyalty to the prophet. I was told if I didn't to consider myself not welcome in meetings anymore.
Later, my family still in were warned to avoid us.Of course this was about 15 years ago.Now, there is really no chance to stay in if there is even suspision that you are wavering.

Anonymous said...

When we were asked to leave two years ago, some of the brethern were sent to our house to ask if what they had heard about us was true. I was gone, but my husband answered the door. They gave him a chance to admit or deny before quietly asking him to leave as soon as we could find a place to live. We had known they might be comming and had planned on quietly leaving before word got out about us, that way we could still have some contact with our families. So, we were sad to go, but not heart broken. We knew the rules. We had been taught if we showed by our behavior we did not want to obey, we would be asked to leave. We found an appartment and left. My parents refused to say good-bye, but we still see my husband's parent's occasionally. They bring us mail that accidently got into their p.o. box, and we are carefull not to ask about anything religeous that they might have been told not to speak about. We are carefull not to offend them, but it's nice to still see them sometimes.

Anonymous said...

Dear 6:32


You mentioned not obeying? Obey what? Warren's teachings?

Anonymous said...

yes.

Anonymous said...

There is a great differance since Warren took over the Flds.I have noticed,increasing secrecy,financial misdeeds,lots of doctrinal changes even between Rulon and Warren.Fttc. could certainly explain this idea better,but it seems the Flds changed quite a bit after the Hammon- Timpson split as well.

Anonymous said...

WARNING this post is VERY LONG! It is also my views, which may be flawed. If I get it wrong, would someone with more knowledge please let me know. I’m also still “in”, so I am somewhat familiar with what is happening out here in CC. This post is not intended to give offense, but to educate. If anyone is offended by it, I’m sorry.

"Do people really get kicked out?"

The simple answer is yes.

"Are there a set of standards to be followed?"

Once again, yes, but the standards set up by Joseph Smith have be continually changed by the “one man”, who is Warren Jeffs.

"if they are not followed, do they get the choice to straighten up or get out?"

This one could get tricky, so I will give as brief an explanation to the way the Priesthood in the FLDS works. I will also break those who are “kicked” out into four parts: unmarried boys, unmarried girls, married men, and married women.

In the beginning of “The Work” it was about keeping fundamental Mormonism teachings, specifically plural marriage. That was the main difference between the fundamentalists and the mainstream Mormons. It was all about keeping the teachings of Joseph Smith. It was not about control of the people. In fact, in the beginning of “The Work” it was more about plural marriage and families than total loyalty to one man, seeing that there was more than one man set apart by John Taylor to perform the marriages. Over time it has evolved into the current FLDS where loyalty to the “one man” who has the sealing powers is more important than anything else, including families.

Keep in mind that now in the FLDS it is all about control. We are taught that the Prophet is as God to us. As an FLDS poster who referred to himself as “CTR” said a few months ago“he who has the right to rule is paramount in the FLDS.” That would be the prophet, the “one man.” Since he is the only one who can receive revelation for the people, is the head of all Priesthood on Earth, and is also the only one who can seal couples together for time and eternity, he calls the shots (usually referred to as modern revelation).

In the FLDS, only men can hold the priesthood, women can’t. However, a woman must be sealed to a Priesthood man to receive her salvation, and a man must live the Principle (plural marriage) in order to attain the Celestial (highest) Kingdom in Heaven (this is how it has been since Joseph Smith). If a woman stays with her husband and he has “lost” priesthood, she will also be dammed to hell. The judge, jury, and executioner who decides if a man has lost his Priesthood in the FLDS is, of course, the Prophet.

Age 8 is considered old enough to be baptized, both boys and girls. Age 12, the young men usually receive the Aaronic Priesthood. To honor this Priesthood, the young men must keep themselves morally clean, honor their Priesthood father, and be teachers of the gospel. They can’t have a wife until they receive the Melchizedek Priesthood. The Aaronic Priesthood holders, if they have a job, are also to turn over their money to their Priesthood head, which is their father. Once a young man is considered “worthy” (these days it is total submission to those over them) they can receive the Melchizedek Priesthood.

When a young man is ordained to the Melchizedek Priesthood, his father is no longer his Priesthood head, it is now the Prophet and those in church leadership acting under the Prophet through delegation. But all are ultimately accountable to the one man, the prophet. The young man may still live in his father’s house, and must obey the rules of the house, but his father is now his “brother” in the Priesthood. The young Melchizedek holder now shows his worthiness by his loyalty to the prophet and those in position of authority that act under the prophets direction. Most are asked to turn in their monies to the storehouse, except what they need for their “just wants and needs.” If the Prophet feels they are loyal enough, he will give them a wife. Both men and women are placed in marriage, it is the Prophet who decides, he arranges the unions.

A man loses the Priesthood by being morally unclean, or doubting the prophet in the smallest detail. Loyalty to the Prophet has now become more important than anything else, even treating others with love and respect. The Golden Rule only applies to those the Prophet says it can. FLDS are forbidden to associate with any former members or “apostates,” and if they do, that is grounds enough to lose ones Priesthood. If a man loses the Priesthood, he can’t have a wife or family, and if he already has one, she is released from him. If the prophet considers him unable or unwilling to repent, the wife and family are married to another man who has proven his loyalty.

In July of 2003, Warren got up in front of the people and told them the Lord was displeased with them for building a monument of the 1953 raid, making a slide show of the raid, and for some of the men taking sides in justifying a fight between one of the older men and a young unmarried man. What was this fight? It was a father taking a baseball bat to a young man and beating him up quite badly because the young man had molested this man’s young daughter (not sure her age, but I think she was not even 6). Some men thought he (the father) was justified, some thought he should have “kept sweet” and only reported it to Warren and let him handle it. Both men were told to leave town.

Because the Lord was upset with the people, Warren told the people the blessings of the Priesthood would be removed. That meant no more meetings, baptisms, Priesthood ordinations, and marriages. Since that time, there has been one baptism day that I am aware of. I don’t know how many men have received either the Aaronic or Melchizedik Priesthood, but there have been a lot of marriages (but done in extreme secrecy). Now Warren says that Colorado City is cursed, and the faithful should be yearning to go to Zion. In Zion, the blessings have been restored. This puts extreme pressure on the people to be strictly obedient to Warren or else they won’t get called to Zion (its by invitation only). If you are not worthy of Zion, you won’t have the opportunity to receive the Priesthood blessings, and therefore you can’t receive your salvation.

OK, unmarried boys: Many have been sent away from their father’s homes and the community. Many others have left without being sent away. In all cases, if they don’t profess total loyalty to Warren and complete submission to him, the family will cut of all ties. If the family does not, they risk being sent away because they are talking with an “apostate” son.

Why do they get sent away or leave? As is often the case, it is because they won’t obey their father’s and/or the Priesthood authorities exactly. What I mean by that is they may do any of the following “sins”: talking to girls, watching movies, listening to “gentile” music, not following the FLDS dress code of long undergarments and being fully clothed to the neck, wrist, and ankles (although many are questioning this, especially with the way Warren was dressed when arrested). With these “sins”, they are usually counseled to do better, but if they don’t change their ways, the father must remove them from the house or risk losing his Priesthood.

Why would a young man want to rebel? More often than not it is because they don’t feel like they are loved unconditionally. The only love and sense of belonging in the FLDS household is conditional. They feel a lack of freedom. You see, in the FLDS, as a loyal young man, you are to check in with the Prophet and be told what to do and become (profession wise). In the past, the young men could get a building lot and build themselves a house. This gave them something to work towards, a goal, an identity, a place to raise a family. Under Warren, they are to simply turn in all their money over to the Prophet, and they may get a house, or a trailer, or who knows what.

We are taught that our only value is in supporting the Prophet. Young men are not to have an identity of their own, but are to conform to whatever the “Priesthood” over them tells them they are to be. It has become a very restrictive culture. Individuality is strongly discouraged, as are most forms of recreation including sports, and brevity is also a sin. Why? Because it will take our focus of the Prophet.

I dare say we all make mistakes as we grow up, and we need someone who loves us and will listen to us, without judging, to guide us through to manhood. With recreation removed, there are fewer ways to channel the energy and emotion that all of us go through in the change from a boy to a man, when we have more hormones than brains. Many of the young men, at least at first are not trying to be rule breakers, they are simply trying to deal with adolescence. Many of these young men badly want to open up with their fathers and confide in him, but don’t dare. If they do try, instead of listening, the father starts to lecture about “keeping sweet” and “doing the will of your Priesthood head” and “never questioning authority.” You must understand the father often doesn’t dare have a one on one with his son because some of his own (the father’s) questions may come out, and you can’t ask questions about why you should or should not do anything. If you do, you will lose Priesthood, and therefore your family. “God and the Prophet always do right.”

Because the young men feel that they are only loved and listened to if they are perfectly obedient and without sin (and few of us are without sin), they begin looking for an identity, a friend, someone who will listen. Who do these confidantes end up being? usually other young men with questions and a poor relationship with their fathers. This is usually not the best source of guidance through the troubled teenage years. The real problems start when the relationship between father and son gets so bad the son turns to alcohol and drugs to try to escape it all. When this happens, the father has no choice (if he wants to keep the rest of his family) but to send them away, sometimes as young as 13 years old.

Unmarried girls: There are not as many girls sent away. Usually the ones that were sent away had been morally unclean with the boys (adultery). There have also been girls who decided they didn’t want the lifestyle and looked for a way out. Sometimes the only way they could see to get out was to be immoral. Usually, though, even if a girl is “rebellious” and leaves, the parents will try to gather her back up and bring her home. More often than not, if a girl starts to show signs rebellion against her parents and the Priesthood, the parents try to get the Prophet to seal (marry) the rebellious daughter to a loyal Priesthood man.

Married men: Yes, married men have been “kicked” out of town. Told to leave their families and repent from a distance. In most cases that I am aware of, the men were not told what their offense was. They are told, however, to write letters of confession to the prophet. Some of the men say they know what they did wrong, others don’t have a clue. Now we all make mistakes, but I would think it would take a serious sin to lose ones family. Not so in the FLDS. All you have to do is doubt the Prophet.

Once sent away, very few are ever allowed to come back. When a man is “kicked” his family must remove all pictures of him from the house, and are not to have contact with him. Usually, one of the older boys of the family if he holds the Melchizedik Priesthood is the temporary head of the family until the family is reassigned to another man, or the family is resealed to the father if he “repents” by proving his loyalty to Warren.

It is my position that many men were sent away because they posed a threat to Warren and his power. Some knew to much about him and the inner workings of the FLDS. Many realized what Warren was and is teaching is not what had been taught in the past. Some were community leaders that perhaps had reservations about his claim to being the legit head of Priesthood. I don’t claim to know every action taken by the men that have been kicked, but I would be surprised if any of them had committed any real sin.

Married women: It is very seldom that married women are sent away. The only ones I know of are those who committed adultery, or were extremely disruptive and disobedient to their husbands. There have been women leave that have not committed any great sin, but they left, they weren’t kicked.

Why the willingness to “kick” out sons, daughters, or even the father? Because it has been drilled into every FLDS member that they must be sealed to a Priesthood man. Fathers don’t want to risk losing their families because of wayward sons, the women don’t want to risk not going to Heaven because the husband has “lost Priesthood.” The control in the FLDS is that Warren and he alone currently decides if a man has this Priesthood.

Sorry for the long post, sometimes I start typing, and it just doesn’t stop. I do hope this answers your question, jqseer.

If I got something wrong, I apologize. I’m only human and need to do better.

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

Extremely accurate IITMOC. Reading your post helps me remember why i left that place in '05. I hope the young people will have the courage to stand up and change their lives for the better.

One of the reasons many of them are still there, is because they are so afraid to crush their parents. They've seen the sacrifices their parents have made for them and the last thing they want is to hurt their feelings by leaving.

They need to realize that their parents chose their lifestyles at a young age (chose to stay) and that's why they are in this mess. They need to think about their own future children and make the choice to end the cycle now. Then maybe this world can move one step further with its inhabitants and they can become the unique individuals that they are.

Anonymous said...

IITMOC,you have listed in your post nearly all the outstanding
characteristics of a cult,i know the flds have been taught not to question the "prophet" , but consider this,the apostle
James, a man who knew Christ personally,stated; "if any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all men liberally and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him." now these are the words Joseph Smith relied on to start his work, so we cant use the old saw about a mistranslated bible.
Learn where your new testament came from and how it came down to us, that info is available in any respectable library.(but I forget, you are allowed
to listen to a mortal man only, for your enlightenment.).........
and Jesus answered,and said unto them:Take heed that no MAN deceive you;
for many shall come in my name, saying...I am "Christ...and shall deceive many; ( St. Matthew)...read the whole thing again, it will do you good.

Anonymous said...

IITMOC, as an ex FLDS member I thought your post was pretty accurate. Accurate meaning that is what has happened and what does happen. But not accurate in what is right and wrong....of course I believe you already know this. Anyone who has studied the teachings of Joseph Smith knows that no man can take another man's Priesthood away from him. A man can only lose his Priesthood through HIS actions, not through the judgement of another, even if this other man is the ONE MAN. Which leads to another point.....you have just illustrated, atleast in my opinion, the fallacy of the ONE MAN Doctrine. The Lord intended for there to be quorums in every office in the Priesthood. Why did he intend this? You can call it a checks and balance system if you like. It's my opinion that when ONE MAN has complete power and doesn't have to seek the unification of a quorum his personality begins to taint and skew doctrine, his personality begins to lead instead of his Priesthood.

We have seen Warren's personality rule. Now honestly, this wouldnt be so bad if he had the personality of a Bro. Johnson. Bro Johnsons administration, for the most part, produced happiness and unity in the community. Interestingly enough Bro Johnson was never the ONE MAN. I dont care what anyone says, to say that he was the ONE MAN would be to say that Bro. Jeffs never held the office of an Apostle. No, they both held that office and Bro Johnson held it in seniority to Bro. Jeffs. Bro Jeffs acknowledged this until the day Bro Johnson died. Did Bro Jeffs need an ordination immediately before or after Bro Johnson died? NO! He already held the keys to that Priesthood. Which leads to another point........

If you look back at the history of this dispensation, especially post 1886 you will notice that there has NEVER been only ONE MAN who ruled. FLDS will deny this, and for years I denied it, but after studying the history its as plain as day. Bro John Woolley had a council, Bro Barlow had a council and Bro Johnson had a council and as much as current FLDS members dont want to admit it Dell Timpson and J.M. Hammon were on that council.....or should I say Bro Timpson and Bro Hammon. Now the history from that point on gets a little confusing to me. Alot of he said she said dialogue. But it wasnt until Bro Johnson died that the ONE MAN doctrine was truly applied, because, as I said previously, Bro Jeffs held that Priestood. But, once Bro Johnson died Bro Jeffs was left standing as the ONE MAN to the people. Then he died. And as far as I am concerned NEVER ordained Warren to ANYTHING. So can Priesthood be transferred and given without ordination these days. If you think that youre no more enlightened that the Mormon Church circa early 1900s. Now, interestingly enough, the people that were booted from the FLDS (the Centennial Park people, better known as second warders) believe in there being a quorum to this Priesthood with a President within the quorum, something that this dispenation had ALWAYS taught. Weve always been taught that by their fruits ye shall know them and beauty is as beauty does. Im not a member of the Second Ward, but it is interesting to note the difference in the fruits they bear when compared to the FLDS. Just visit CC sometime. You can always spot a second warder, they generally have a sincere smile on their face and shun noone.

One last point............If Warren truly is the ONE MAN an ordination would be necessary before he died to perpetuate the Apostleship in the FLDS. Mark my words, that will NEVER happen. Warren is far too egotistical and narcissistic to do such a thing. Warren will die and leave the FLDS even more confused than when he was alive.

This is the first time I can recall in the history of Fundamentalism that baptisms have been denied to worthy eight year olds. You people in CC who have allowed this to happen to your children have turned your backs on everything you KNOW to be true.

Anonymous said...

anon 12:28:

I was trying not to let toO many of my own beliefs color what is currently going on in the FLDS. I was just trying to say it how it is. I had a whole page written on the flow of the work from John Taylor to the present, but deleted it because my post was getting so long (it was still very long). If you read between the lines, you will see that I have some issues with the "one man rule."

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

I do see that IITMOC. Im sorry if you thought I was attacking your post, I want, to the contrary actually. I would love to see your flow chart of John Taylor to present day. Maybe you could help me with the confusion Im dealing with.

GBNF said...

IITMOC, and all the rest of you,
The folly in all of your arguments is that your religion is bullcrap based on lies & trickery. You all parse & disect doctrine that is moot. Go get some stones , put them in your hat, shake 'em up and look for your own revelations, then get on with your pathetic lives.

GBNF

Anonymous said...

Its funny how someone is socially crucified and labeled a "homophobic" for speaking out against gays but its perfectly acceptable to rail against someone for their own personal religious beliefs. Pull your head out of your ass GBNF. What is your religion, because we all have a theology, a system of beliefs that we live by. Please, tell me yours. Because it would be just as easy for me to say that what you believe in is a complete sham. Religious intolerance is what lead to Islamic terrorism, not to mention many other unfortunate events in the history of the world.

Anonymous said...

GBNF:

I wasn't trying to argue it for or against or say if Joseph Smith was or was not inspired of the Lord. I just tried to answer jqseer's question about how the FLDS work.

I would be interested to know what you do believe in. It is much harder to state one's own beliefs than to criticize others.

BTW, I am not here to judge anyone's beliefs. Just be certain your beliefs don't trample on the rights of others.

We must stand for something or we will fall for anything. We must all have core principles that we try to live by. I am not trying to be hostile, and I would truly be interested in what do you stand for GBNF?

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

anon 10:59

Concerning cult similarities.

If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, looks like a duck and feels like a duck, it must be a duck, right? Wrong! The Priesthood leaders have clearly told us it is a cow. A sacred Cow. You can't possibly be saying the Priesthood leaders would lie to us, could you? They speak for the Lord, and He never lies.

You must be an apostate, a servant of the devil, and as such you are a LIAR, so I can't accept anything you try to tell me. You see, that is why we should not listen to or associate with apostates, you will LIE to us and tell us our cow is really a duck!

Read between the lines, I think you will see what I am saying :)

I know what your were.

IITMOC

GBNF said...

Religious intolerance is what lead to Islamic terrorism, not to mention many other unfortunate events in the history of the world.

2/11/2007 2:37 PM

Religion is what leads to religious intolerance. Everyone thinks his/her religion is right!

The TRUTH is, religions were created not by God, but by man to control other men. The FLDS is a perfect example.

IITMOC,
I believe in seeking the truth. I don't believe I need some Jack-ass telling me what to believe or some Priestcraft-type rituals for my salvation.

Most of what is taught in ALL organized religions is specifically geared towards control & manipulation of their members. Money & Power.

So,
Anon 2:37, when you pull your head out you might realize you don't need some mamby-pamby, mumbo-jumbo to get you to your god. Are you lucid enough to follow along here? It's all about YOU, not someone else. Take responsibility for your own life! Stop putting YOUR salvation in the hands of others.

GBNF

Anonymous said...

I'm sorry. I guess I don't get it. I don't see how believing in a religion puts my salvation in anothers hands. My salvation is MY responsibility. Also, I would hardly call Jesus a jack ass.

GBNF said...

Muslims wouldn't call Mohamed a Jack-ass either.

GBNF

Anonymous said...

----------------------------------------
IITOMC......got it
---------------------------------------------

Anonymous said...

gbnf,

I think we agree in many ways. Thank you for your follow up posts.

My view is that religion is a tool (we don't need to get into whether it is of God or not),and like any tool can be used for good or bad (I believe this is true for any religion).

I think our difference may be in how we view the tool. You see the tool as bad. I see the improper use of the tool as bad.

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

anon 12:45,

What exactly is the confusion you are dealing with? If I can help, I'd love to.

The flow chart, to do it any justice, would take some time. If I can find any in the next week or two, I will try to post it.

IITMOC

furnace said...

I firmly believe One-Man-Rule is correct doctrine. I am the one-and-only who has the right to rule in my life; IITMOC is the one-and-only who has the right to rule in his life, and everyone is the one-and-only who has the right to rule in their life.

Anonymous said...

Furnace,

You can't be serious! Are you saying that we, each one, are responsable for our actions and what we do in this life? We will be judged by our actions, not by our loyalty to another man?

I don't know, that seems like a lot of responsability and nowhere to send the blame if I screw up :)

IITMOC

GBNF said...

IITMOC, We shall have to agree to disagree. Religions are useless tools.

Furnace, ROFLMAO.

GBNF

Anonymous said...

Well put, gbnf. To IITMOC: You seem remarkably level-headed and logical for siomeone who is still "in". Congrats!

Anonymous said...

IITMOC: A poster under a different topic, who lives in CC but is not FLDS, said they noticed a change in behavior of the FLDS, people are acting nicer to outsiders than they have in the past. Are they being told to change? Are people catching on that warren only needs them for their money and are changing on their own? I'm sure most of the people will still follow warren off a cliff, but are you seeing the same change?

gbnf: --throw some stones in a hat, shake them up and get your own revy-- I like that one; I'm going to have low belly chuckles all night, probably tomorrow too.

LTG

Anonymous said...

gbnf,

Perhaps you are right... We do see it a little differently, and I really appreciate your responses.

Just keep in mind, if one does not know how to use a tool, it is definitely useless to that person.

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

IITMOC: BTW- excellent long post. I'd like to see the flow chart too. Men do get kicked with at least one wife--add another category and explain if you can.

If you decide its not for you, you'll do just fine out here. Lot's of us have.

LTG

Anonymous said...

IITMOC

What is Jesus to the FLDS?

Anonymous said...

LTG,

I have not noticed any real changes with the "faithful" members that I associate with. However, most of the most zealous and loyal followers have moved out of town.

We have not been told to be any nicer to outsiders, I think its just some are realizing we receive back what we give out.

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

LTG,

Could you clarify what the category is you want me to explain. I guess I missed it.

To the anon wondering about Jesus to the FLDS.

Jesus is the second member of the Godhead (Father Michael, Jesus, and Joseph Smith). He came to Earth to atone for the fall of Adam. Because of his atonement, we can now be resurrected after we die and receive a body.

I hope that answers your question.

To all: I won’t be posting for a bit here (at least a few days, possibly more than a week). I will try to post again as soon as I can.

IITMOC

fttc said...

IITMOC

Thanks for taking the time to post above. Someone up there put the challenge to me and you did much, much better than I could have done. I hope life is treating you well. Last I heard you were working on your family to get them to see. Perhaps it is too personal to answer here, but have you had any success? It is such a comfort to know there are those still "in" that are level-headed as you are. It would be a shame if your family gave you up.

Anonymous said...

Thank you IITMOC for your answer.

I find it interesting and disturbing that Jesus and Joseph Smith hold the same rank.

Why not Abraham, Moses or Enoch instead of Joseph Smith?


One more question. I do believe in Rulon's doctrine Joseph Smith is the Holy Spirit. Did I interpet wrong?

Anonymous said...

IITMOC: Some of the men have been kicked out and one wife has been kicked out with them.

LTG

bbgae said...

What does ITTMOC stand for?

Anonymous said...

bbgae; what does bbgae stand for?

ATAR_i said...

balance between good and evil (ying-yang).

it's in her profile

Anonymous said...

Isn't it.... be...be gay? Suttle mind trick if you ask me!

fttc said...

It's easy to stand behind the anonymist bushes and throw rocks. It's also very cowardly.

bbgae said...

LOL- I knew this was comming when I chose the name, but they wouldn't let me go by ying-yang like I wanted to. (sigh) bbgae was only the sucky alternative. My imagination has limits, sometimes. :) Go ahead, call me what you will... sticks and stones and all that.
FYI: I am not gay (I think lesbian is the proper word here) nor do I have anything against homosexuals. I have an '"ex"- husband', a husband and three children, and several ex-boyfriends. And no, I'm not a sl--, either. :)
Let's just get along, shall we?

bbgae said...

By the way, thanx, fttc for defending me.

bbgae said...

but I don't think annon. 11:11 meant any harm.

Anonymous said...

Can anyone tell me who is on the present
Centenial Park Priesthood Council?

Anonymous said...

all in good fun...glad you took it lightly bbgae (ying-yang)

ex creeker said...

Last I heard JT was president. I don,t think anything else has revelance. LOL

Anonymous said...

Ex-creeker,I recently saw a program on Abc tv. of a
Centenial Park church service and just wondered who the row of "White-Ties"sitting behind John T. were.

Anonymous said...

I was reading back on some of the archives of this blog and I would like to correct something in the missing persons string. Henry Jessop's wife MOST CERTAINLY DID N O T take the children with her when she left. I know. I am her sister.

Anonymous said...

Hey Heidi's sister; why did Heidi leave, anyway? I have heard several different stories, but none of them make any sense. Did she REALLY get kicked out? Why?

Anonymous said...

Yes, she really got kicked out. She was talking to a man on the internet and then felt guilty and confessed and they kicked her out. Pleas tell what you heard, It would be interesting to know.

Anonymous said...

One story is that she was looking at Porn on the net, and she got caught, one other is that she was having internet sex with some guy and got caught. One other is that she stole some money from an employer and was running from the law. (That one came from a VERY unreliable person that she used to work for, who is very dishonest herself, so I didn't believe it. I don't think anyone believed that one.)

So why would they kick her out for just talking to someone? Why did she go? Where is she? This makes no sense at all. Does she want to be with her family? If so, she should just go back. I think she is an awesome person. I hope the best for her.

ATAR_i said...

Heidi's sister - is your sister alright?

Anonymous said...

My sister is ok. She is living with our saint of an aunt who is sister to one of Nehpi Barlow's prievious wives and one of Alma Barlow's prievious wives. Hiedi still talks to her children on the phone once in awhile. But I don't want to say too much about it because I think it is her story to tell, and not mine. And because I don't know who might or might not be reading this, and I don't want anything I write to hurt her or her chances of still talking on the phone with them. I will tell you this, however. She never got caught looking at porn, she never had cyber sex. She might have been flirting a little because she was lonely, but that was all. she never ran off with that "lady's" money. The "lady" asked Heidi to put the money in her (Heidi's) name (so Heidi would take the heat for her crooked buisness) and Heidi was just naive and kind enough to do it. And then she had a mess to get out of. But she only paid the "lady's" bills with the "lady's" own money. Then she closed the account.
As far as the real reason she left, she won't tell me about it. It has been two years and every time I aske her, she gets really upset and says she can't talk about it and changes the subject.
Yes, she wants to go back, but she won't because our other sister wrote a letter to our parents telling them the man she was talking to had dark skin and they freaked out and showed it to 'Uncle" somebody (Will T. J.?, Warren?)who promptly declared she was not allowed to return. She still believes the FLDS are right and Warren is her prophet but she won't return because they have asked her to go live her life apart.
I agree that she is awesome. You can't talk to her for longer than five minutes without laughing your head off. I miss her too.

Anonymous said...

OK, that's really sad, but I'm glad she's being taken care of. It's bad enough that she's away from her family, but to have no one would make that so much worse.

I hope she gets her family back.

Anonymous said...

weird, that last comment was mine - but I don't show up - weird.

ATAR_i said...

the last couple comments were mine but I'm not showing up - I've had to log in with google, lets see if that works

bbgae said...

I didn't know Heidi very well, but I knew who she was. That is very sad. But I don't think Warren will let her back in. He doesn't seem to be very forgiving...

Anonymous said...

, its been said , “a brief summery of the
work of the Lord, could be, the
increase of wisdom among his
childern” (to you folks in texas and
other scattered remnents of “Isreal”,
it means, make ya smarter.) this
being said, it follows that Warren
must be a servant of the Lord, because
he seems to be, “makin yall
smarter”there seems to be an unusual
amount of cerebral activity among
both the innys and outies

bbgae said...

And you know this because you've been scanning us all with your brain wave detector?

Anonymous said...

signal's weak, but ya.

ATAR_i said...

Is your brain wave scanner wireless, because my brain wave scanners signal is being interupted by some powerlines in the area, and I was wondering if I should go with the satelite model.

Anonymous said...

bbgae; why would you say that you don't know Heidi? You are her sister!

bbgae said...

And why would you think that?

bbgae said...

Anon 6:32-Who are you? Do you know me? Do I know you?

Sigh...I posted that because I realized I had said too much about myself in my post of 2-21@ 11:34 on the "WJ Mental Breakdown" thread and I was hoping that by doing so it would throw anyone into confusion as to my real identity.

It appears my plan back fired.

Anonymous said...

It's ok, sweetie, your identity is safe with me. I am just very good at picking up on the energy of different posters. I knew who you were before you said that about Heidi....I kinda like my anonymity, too, so post away! You are good to go!

feralfem said...

Hey anon 10:58 (and yesterday @ 6:32),

I am appalled at your inappropriate and disrespectful online behavior!!

You say you like your anonymity??
Well, with FEW exceptions, everyone else on this board is anonymous too, including bbgae!!!

Just because some choose to have a login ID does not mean we're not anonymous -- just like YOU.

Outting ANY anonymous contributor on this blog is completely out of line and irresponsible.

Shame on you!

feralfem said...

Darn it bbgae, you should have stopped with, Who are you? Do you know me? Do I know you?

Perfectly tactful call on an irresponsible blogger.

::jumps off high horse::

Possibly I've misjudged how anonymous you were trying to be in the first place.

I'm really enjoying your posts, btw.

Namaste

bbgae said...

Thanx, Feralfem :)

I really appreciate that.

Two reasons why I 'fessed up-
1: I wanted to be truthful
2:To keep Anon. from spilling anything else...But, it appears they won't.

Thanx, Anon.

bbgae said...

Anon-You most certainly were NOT telling me to cool it, or you would have done just that. You purposefully ousted me and it was a very mean and rude thing for you to do. I had every right to be angry with you, and I was not.

But, I changed my mind.

Feralfem was right. Just because some of us choose to register as a blogger does not mean that we are not ALL still annymous.

Only someone with inside knowlege of me would have known who I was. So, I say again WHO ARE YOU?!

And, what makes you think Feralfem is a girl?

Administrator- Can Anon call feralfem a Bi--- and get away with it? And, if they reveal anything else about me, will you please delete it?

bbgae said...

Yes, and I know- it was my fault for admitting to it.

But, gosh darn it, I couldn't keep up a charade. It goes against my grain.

Perhaps, I should have just refrained from answering.

fttc said...

Posting under a 'name' is the only way to keep the dialogue on a blog half way sensible. If everyone on here only posted under Anonymous it would be very confusing. I can't count the times the debates have become very confusing because several topics get going on the same thread between the Anon and the 'names' and it is very hard to follow.

And about being Anonymous. I have revealed my identity to several people on here whom I chose to and whom I trusted. To my knowledge as long as I have been on here I have not been 'outed' by anyone of them. Given, I have not posted sometimes when I felt the topic was unique enough to me that it would be revealing. Or I have posted under Anonymous in my several comments on that topic. But still, most of the posters on here have had the courtesy to leave identities as the owners choose. It has been a long while since anyone has openly outed another blogger.

Feralfem is only stating what others of us have come to accept as the rules of engagement. This forum has been a place where we can voice our feelings and frustrations in a forum that is not going to be judged by our peers. (Since they do not know who we are.) Topics that most of the FLDS would not think of breaching are brought up and discussed often by those who would never do it openly. This is often a beginning place for people to actually look at themselves and see where they are.

I think Anon owes bbgae an apology. Certainly not the hissing spitting response that eminated from them above.

feralfem said...

Kudos! fttc,

That was well said, well grounded and much appreciated. As usual, I couldn't have said it better. Happily, you've stolen my thunder. ::grin::
------

To all and for the record:
I do not respond to name-calling or ridiculous logic. I am not an argumentative person. I have no interest in flaming or denigrating anyone or their opinions from behind my anonymity. True engagement requires trust and civility.

However, I am NOT one to sit still when "contributors" -- anonymous or not -- trample the "rules of engagement" by threatening other's anonymity.

I think, live and breathe "outside the box" but abide by the groundrules of whatever forum I choose to participate in. Often my opinions are SO unconventional, I won't offer them - especially on this forum.

To anyone who wishes to confront me on a personal level (and one of the reasons I have a login ID in the first place), my email address is always available in my profile.
------

Lastly, I agree with fttc; bbgae deserves an apology.

Namaste

ATAR_i said...

but i still wanna know who ots is

fttc said...

I am not inferring that I do not want to know who other posters are. I too would be interested in knowing who OTS is, as well as some others. Knowing some background about a person gives a different perspective to their comments. In OTS case it would make a huge difference in how serious he is to be taken and whether he deserved pity or contempt.

I know the names of several other posters on this blog. They have indicated to me they want to remain anonymous and I will always respect that.

ATAR_i said...

fttc,

Yes, I agree with you and namaste. I have personally email a few people and know their names.

I think it's especially important to allow people to decide for themselves who they trust to reveal themselves to.

There is only one person on this board who knows my real first name.

I'm curious how many people others have revealed themselves to.

INFORMAL POLL

How many people on this board have you told your real name?

feralfem said...

Atar and I have exchanged emails but not our real names.

Only one person on this blog knows my name - and I haven't seen her/him post here in a long time.

(There are several who know who I am - and vice versa - on the Polygabuse forum who might easily be posting here anonymously.)

fttc said...

I have told three or maybe four. Three of them revealed who they were in private email before I gave them my real id. The other person chose not reveal their name, which was fine by me. I requested all to keep my identity confidential on the blog and they have respected that.

Anonymous said...

OTS is Val Jessop, I tell you! I KNOW he is! How long has it been since he posted here? And (coincidently) how long has it been since Val disappeared? Hmmmm??? This is a no-brainer, people!

bbgae said...

There you go...telling on people.....

I have not revealed myself to anyone, even if 'Grouchy Anon' thinks he/she knows me. I am willing to bet it is not as much as he/she thinks it is.

'Grouchy Anon.'- this is not a challenge. Don't take me up on it unless you e-mail me.

I also have a very good idea who 'Grouchy Anon.' is.

There are a few others I susptect I know but I have not e-mailed them and asked yet.

Anonymous said...

I know UncaDuff's real name...helluva good guy and an all around excellent human being.

LTG

Anonymous said...

Has uncaduff tried to keep it a secret. On another blog, he openly admitted it. Those that know him call him that in real life.

Anonymous said...

LTG , awww,sweet.

uncaduff's wife.

Anonymous said...

J W, you aint too smart, are you? Of course that was a challange! DUH!!!

fttc said...

IITMOC

If you are out there and willing I need to contact you in some way. If you will email me at fttcrack@hotmail.com.

Anonymous said...

8:40
I was trying to make a joke, one of the limitations typing (and my sense of humor, or lack of it). For the first 35+ years of my life I always called him UncaDuffy. Even for someone with my limited range it was easy to pick up on the similarities when he shortened his name to Uncaduff.


LTG

bbgae said...

3/11@ 1:16- You still owe me an apology.

You just made a lier out of yourself by posting what you thought were my initials, because in your 3/2 @ 10:58 you said, "It's ok sweetie, your identity is safe with me."

And.... you just gave yourself away because I have several sets of initials and every time I move I use a different one. Anyone talking to anyone else who used to know me could have a complete converstaion about me and not even know they were talking about the same person.

Now I know where you know me from...

Why won't you e-mail me? Oh! I know! Because then you will loose the attention because the only person to see your vile words would be me!

DO NOT EVER CALL ME SWEETIE AGAIN!!!!!

bbgae said...

Administrator- Would you be so kind as to delete Anonymous' 3/11@ 1:16 comment, because once again, they are trying to compromise my anonymity?

Anonymous said...

Have a cow, Jo! I am not the same person that you were barking at before...I am a different anon. I figured out who you were by your ranting and raving at the other anon! (I would know that B. temper anywhere!!) (smile!!;)

But I want to ask you this...Who cares who you are? What is the big deal about being anon? I for one actually read your posts with more respect, knowing who you were. I don't think I would have had the same apprecication for them, had I not known WHO you were! It's ok to make a stand and let your voice be counted! We need more like you! I wish I dared to do the same! I just don't want to compromise my family...So, relax!! It's all good! And in the future, if you don't want a big deal, don't repsond! You are actually provoking the other anon to reveal your whole name! Chill, girlfriend!!

bbgae said...

And you say this from an anonmyous post! Hah!

Coward!

It is a big deal when someone posts something personal about someone else without their permission. So far I have been pretty open about myself. I guess that was a mistake. I don't care if you know me. I don't care if they know me. It isn't a big deal. But YOU DID NOT ASK ME!!! If I had wanted people to know my full name, I would have used it instead of bbgae. You have no right to compromise me. EVERYONE here has the right to anonmity.

I do not for a second believe you are a different person. I do not trust you. Honeyed words will not bring you favor after what you have done.

Leave me alone!

'C'mon guys! Back me up here.

Anonymous said...

7:50- If all the people bbgae used to know are dispicable like you, I can't wonder that she wanted to remain anonymous! It is unfortunate for her that you have the knowlege of her identity because it is obvious you cannot be trusted.

If you weren't the other anonymous, why did you answer her challenge?

bbgae- don't listen to the wolf's howl.

Anonymous said...

hello, everyone. there is a saying that is a personal favorite of mine, which goes like this, let there be peace on earth. so i think we should all take a deep breath and remember this blog site was made for discussion......
so lets discuss the subject of this link in a friendly manner.


grateful mama

bbgae said...

7:50- Posting a name makes you as bad as the other anonymous. IF you are not the same person...

1- It breakes the rules of engagement as described by feralfem and fttc.

2- You say it would hurt your family? If my identity is revaeled any more than it has been it can hurt me and my family, too. What happened here to me is almost equivelant of your identity here being exposed and then bantered around Colorado City. It may allready be too late for me....And you tell me to chill. Hah!

As for my temper- it is the only thing that kept me going and gave me the strength to come out alive and sane on the other side of all the sh-- I've been through.

fttc said...

bbgae

I'm behind you but don't know what else can be said. Some people are just downright inconsiderate and rude. They get a bang out of making everyone else miserable. Probably because misery likes company. I read this theory about stupid people. Those you want to avoid are the ones who will do stupid things without gain to either party involved. This is what you are up against. I hope you can win but these kind of people are the worst to deal with.

feralfem said...

bbgae,

Fttc is being a little kinder than I'm about be.

IMO, the most effective tool, against blog stupidity and internet trolls (perhaps the epitomy of stupid), is your IGNORE tool. Everybody owns one, it lasts a lifetime and it never wears out with use. Unintelligent (stupid) troll behavior generally does not tolerate being ignored.

By definition, trolls (which is what I think we're dealing with here even IF she/he/they be FLDS-associated - as many of us on this blog are) intentionally try to cause disruption "by posting messages that are inflammatory, insulting, incorrect, inaccurate, absurd, or off-topic with the INTENT of provoking a reaction from others."

All you have to do is deny them their INTENT by ignoring them.

From Wikipedia: "Experienced participants in online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore him or her, because responding encourages a true troll to continue disruptive posts — hence the often-seen warning 'PLEASE DO NOT FEED THE TROLL.'"
[all emphasis mine]

Just a few words to those who think it's "cool" to out someone: If you don't want to be considered "stupid" or "a troll," think about your intent. As fttc says, doing (and saying) stupid things gains NOTHING for either you or your intended target.
Get a grip!!

Just my two "sense" worth
(misspelling intended)

bbgae said...

feralfem= I do not consider your last post unkind.

It is just hard for me to not say anything when anonmyous es make me so %^&#@$# mad!

I will no longer be a troll.

switching to ignore mode now!

Anonymous said...

Thank you!! Well said, Fem! The rest of us were just sitting here thinking how to say what you just said! Ahem, bbgae, your "troll" gave you that very clue! And you gave them just what they wanted!!

And, Atar started something when she stated that she wanted to know who OTS is, too! That just brings them out from under their rocks!

Anonymous said...

LOL!! bbgae, I was the 7:50 poster, (and your cousin!!!) and NOT the same person as your "troll" friend. Ya, I know that temper!!! Sorry, fer being naughty, and stuff... I didn't mean to invoke your wrath! Sheesh! I am just glad I am not within throwing range! (sheepish smile....) I am wearing my "I'm sorry face...does that count?

Anonymous said...

I tried to sign in as "Black Sheep", but it wont let me, so I will just sign it that way from now on.....

Black Sheep

bbgae said...

7:50(3:38)-I forgive you, and I'm sorry for yelling at you. (It's a good thing you were out of throwing range yesterday!) LOL

If you want to e-amil me, I would like that. You don't have to say which cousin you are.

Black sheep- I think I know you.

bbgae said...

3:38- I really am sorry for yelling at you. I realize you were just trying to help me, and you didn't deserve to get yelled at. Thanx for not getting angry with me over that...

Fttc & Feralfem- thanx for straightening me out. :)

Anonymous said...

bbgae, I am the the 3:38 poster, and your "cuzzin" and it's good to know the mushroom cloud has blown over.....(whew!!) so hows it goin'? You sound like you are in good form, sassy as ever!

Black Sheep

Anonymous said...

Sing this to the tune some of us know so well...

Let us all throw big rocks at each other
At home or where ere we may be,
Let us all throw big rocks at each other
Big rocks are sweet tones of.....the heart.

LTG

bbgae said...

Black Sheep:
Hey cuz!
I have to say you completely blew me off my feet. I thought you might be a member of my family, but I was not expecting a cousin.
Yes, I am doing fine. I am as happy now as I ahve ever been. And sassy too, looks like (did EVERYONE really know how feisty I can be???!!!)
How are you doing? It is good to hear from you. Would you care to e-mail me so we can discuss it?
I promise to be nice.
I take back the coward thing, and the trust thing, and all the other things I said when I thought you were the troll trying to be sneeky.

LTG- LOL I love that. (And I deserved it!) Thanx! :)

bbgae said...

By the way, Black Sheep,
If you want to have your blog name at the top of your posts, just e-amil the administrator and sign up with google. It's on the right side of the main page in the grey colored area.