Monday, September 11, 2006

Remembering September 11th

I have just recently been made aware that FLDS view 9/11 as something that the United States Government 'set up' so that they could take more control over the citizens of this country, as well as the citizens of the world.

This saddens me, not because I believe it to be true, but because they consider their own government this evil. The filtering of information in this manner is disconcerting, and I am saddened.

105 comments:

Anonymous said...

where did you get this idea?

just because one (1) flds person feels this way, PLEASE! do not consider for a moment that we all fit into this catagory.

I was very saddened by your remark.

I too feel deeply saddened that this tradgy happened. And I pray to Hevenly Father that it will never happen again.

Anonymous said...

We all need to be careful how we use the word "they". Because someone thinks the 9/11 tragedy was a set-up doesn't necessarily mean all do. I think your comment shows a sad degree of ignorance, and hopefully you'll consider this in your stereotyping in the future.

Also Saddened

ATAR_i said...

I don't doubt there are a some in FLDS who understand that there was a terrorist attack on Sept 11th.

Perhaps I should have inserted the word "some" before FLDS to make the statement correct.

But, aren't you being overzelous as well when you claim that I am ignorant because I didn't use one simple pronoun. If you are part of the FLDS then you DO realize that a certain percentage of people believe this to be true.

It's interesting that you don't actually state that you DON'T believe it - only that EVERYONE doesn't believe it.

I've just heard in two other posts from another thread - that some FLDS DO believe it to be a 'set up'.

Anonymous said...

Hey Ataretard! A recent survey published in a reputable weekly US news magazine stated an astounding percentage of Americans believe there was some form of cover up or internal involvement in the 911 tragedy--to the tune of over 60 million Americans-- according to the article. And you are attacking a miniscule portion of that percentage based on what? Rumours, assumptions and outright bigotry. You want to go on the offensive? Start attacking those 60 million Americans and quit sterotypically accusing a population of people because you might have heard that ONE FLDS member agreed with the conspiracy theories! I'll wager that the ratio is 100 FLDS that believe it was a an actual act of terrorism to 1 that believe otherwise. The ratio in the rest of America according the news article in 3:1. You are an obvious prejudicial bigot looking at any angle and any cause to attack those people.

ATAR_i said...

Are you FLDS?

Do you know how many FLDS faithful are on this board?

Answer - not many.

I asked the question today, and within a few hours had two direct responses. Both from people on the inside.

IIMOC stated he didn't believe it, but that "MOST of the people he knew believed it was a conspiracy".

Second poster stated that she believed it was a "set up".

Do you have some better information?

So don't get your panties up into a wad, it's not just me making nasty stereotypical comments, MANY ACTUALLY BELIEVE it, I'm merely bringing it to your attention.

The answers aren't pretty - is that why you're upset?

Did you ever see the interview with the two Fawns? Even after they were out of FLDS for awhile, they still didn't really believe man walked on the moon. Why? Because that was a lie, made up by the government.

Are you new to this blog, and to and issues of the FLDS?

ATAR_i said...

1. Also - can you name that news magazine so I can verify.

2. Cover up is very different from the government setting up the planes to fly into their own Pentegon, Twin Towers, kill their own citizens in a plot to take control of the country and the world.

Anonymous said...

Ataretard again! You are worse in reality than your introverted ramblings paint you to be. You told on yourself in a big way. It is not just the FLDS you would attack; you would attack anyone that is helpless. You are just like a typical playground bully: pick on the weak and helpless because they can't defend themselves. You showed your colors by stating "Do you know how many FLDS are on this board? Not many" So in your warped estimation, it's free to attack the defenseless, in that none of the FLDS are going to come on board and challenge you. But like most playground bullies, when they are ultimately challenged by "a big brother" they retreat and cry foul. It is attitudes just like yours that let 6 million defenseless Jews get slaughtered in WWII. Who is there going to be left to defend your rights when you finish attacking everyone else? Chew on that and get rid of your bigotry and accept people as people. Wow! you got two responses out of a population of 10,000 people and that sure does verify your assumption that everyone of the FLDS are guilty as you have charged. Have you ever read Time Magagine?

desert darling said...

It seems that it is not only the FLDS that think that the twin towers incident was some sort of government conspiricy.
After all, what about Wacco and the Oklahoma building?
Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't.

Anonymous said...

Well I haven't been to Waco, but I know several law enforcement fellows who experienced it. And it happened. There is a church still there of followers who are waiting for their prophet Karesh to come back.

As for the Oklahoma boming, I have been to the sight. It is very moving, to see the chairs representing the dead. The small ones really choked me up. The momentos of things left by grieving family members and public.

The man who blew the Federal building up did so because he was upset about Waco. He was white, a home grown terrorist.

As for the FLDS I heard a "rumor" that at the Oler Canadian School had a photo of the twin towers after the planes hit them on their wall. Will anyone venture why?

Aarti said....Did you ever see the interview with the two Fawns? Even after they were out of FLDS for awhile, they still didn't really believe man walked on the moon. Why? Because that was a lie, made up by the government.

Obviously Uncle Rulon Jeffs believed they went to the moon.
He was on the board of the corportation who's O Ring failed on a shuttle. Remember that, I guess it was a conspiracy.

And Muslim fanatics are real. I hope you never get blown up by one personally.

I would stay out of Las Vegas. It a main target.

Anonymous said...

Atar_i, have you not heard such rumors
outside the world of the FLDS?

You must live quite a sheltered life.

Such conspiracy theories are certainly not limited to those in the FLDS community and are quite widespread in other communities as well, including "educated" communities such as universities (where I first encountered such ideas).

Such stereotypes directed toward a particular group is a gross underestimate of social conspiracy theories generated by a critical society in general. A critical society in the US today,if you have not noticed, is approximately 50% of the US population, according to the 2004 presidential election.

In a world in which no one authors or entertains such critical ideas, such tragic actions may indeed be more likely to come to pass in reality.

This is certainly not to suggest that I assume such atrocities to be true. However I do recognize the importance of not limiting the origin of such theories to a group of people with whom your only contact is through a mouse and a keyboard.

ATAR_i said...

To the lovely anonymous poster who keeps calling me a retard - are you sure I'm the bully

Other than IIMOC (who says most believe it's a conspiracy, but not him) I haven't heard any faithful FLDS on this board say that the main bunch of FLDS do not believe this is a 'set up'.

I have heard YOU say how horrid I am for saying such a thing, implying 'who would believe something so ridiculous'. Isn't that more of a condemnation than I had, I was only sad.

The 'retard' poster is upset because it's a 'stereotype' - which is an oversimplified opinion. You can do that to an individual as well as a group. Have you stereotyped me? Have you ever noticed how much yiddish I use (perhaps the WWII example wasn't the best to use to illustrate how I'll feel about Jews).

And, my rationale for pointing out that every FLDS person on this board thus far has aknowledged it, and for letting you know there aren't many is - because you made me a bet. Remember your ratio babble up above because you were sure the FLDS wouldn't think that way.

Well guess what - a great many of them do. Why do you assume to know so much about these people, clearly you do, or you wouldn't have made such an assinine bet.

Why do you assume to know so much about me - you've no idea who I am. I have most of these individuals in my personal email - we don't agree all the time - but we certainly don't call each other names (OTS being the exception).

To the last anonymous poster, until today, the answer is no, I hadn't heard those theories. I did look them up today, and see just like any other conspiracy, they have their followers.

It's not mainstream accepted, or even chatted up - I'm in the mainstream, and I have NEVER heard those theories expressed before. I'm still blown away by it.

Lastly, to the 'retard' poster. Can you give yourself a signature, so I can stop calling you the 'retard poster'.

muggsey said...

Conspiracy theorys abound. I am sure that there are those within certain cultures who have never been in or near a hurricane that would self-righteously announce that one of these terrible storms never occurred last fall, let alone two that hit the Gulf Coast.

Man never walked on the moon nor did an Astronaut or Cosminaut ever go into orbit around the world. space shuttle disasters never haappened, even though the television cameras of the world were upon at least two of them as they were destroyed. to admit such a thing happened would be to admit that there was indeed a space program.

Conspiracy theories are fun to organize, even more fun to expand. The conspiracy can range from gosip within a community to the explosion of a thermo-neuclear divice. Things happen that will be denied.

We have a local talent who still denies that man walked on the moon. His reason is based upon the fact that he looked into the Almanac and noted that the moon wasn't even out when Neil Armstrong took that "one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind."

desert darling said...

Oh Muggsy,

You gave me the giggles with that last one.

"the moon wasn't even out when Neil Armstrong..........."

ROTFL

talk about a "blond" mentality

Anonymous said...

The FLDS leadership under Warren is no friend of the United States or its government, or so it would appear. They don't trust them and feel they are out to make life hard for the lord's chosen people. They feel the government and all its officials are corrupt and have only the goal of destroying the lord’s people.

The “New World Order” or one world government is taught and believed by many in the FLDS to be Satan’s counterfeit of the “Holy United Order” (All things held in common under a “benevolent dictatorship”). The FLDS faithful are waiting and praying for the destructions to come which will destroy all the wicked of this land and the Priesthood will then rule this nation and the Earth with the one man (who is currently Warren Jeffs) as the leader.

We used to have very patriotic celebrations on July fourth of every year, but under the Warren reign, all celebrations have been stopped because they might make us focus on things other than the lord and his "anointed". It has gone so far that I know of some who were reprimanded severely for flying an American flag in their front yards. Drive through the town, the only flags are those in front of government buildings or “unbelievers.”

Also, there are definitely those who buy into the conspiracy theories a lot more than others. Needless to say how much different individuals in the FLDS believe in the Towers conspiracy, it is an FLDS view that the US government is doing all in its power to get us into a “One World” government, which, I repeat is believed to be a counterfeit of the United Order that will be lived during the Millennium.

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

I am afraid of how many of our rights we are giving up for security. It does scare me how many things this administration does in the name of preventing terrorism.

I am as patriotic as it gets but I cant help but puke everytime I hear the President say terrorism.

The conspiracy stuff is all over and I cant help but believe that the government is covering up something. How about the WMD in Irag?

I do not believe that the people controling this country have well being and concern of the people in mind when they do what they do. I dont need someone to pull patriotism over my eyes as our civil liberties are stripped away.

God Bless America!!

Anonymous said...

Atar_i

I enjoy your posts. I am glad you ammended you statement so it was not so broad. Its is just not fair to label a whole society. Dont let the anon guy get you down.

Anonymous said...

To all on this blog;

I want to take this time to apologize if I have truly offended any of you, that was not my intentions when I first started posting. In looking back, I have spent a good deal of time on this blog when I had other items which I really cared more about. Also, in looking at some of my posts, they were not totally aligned with the values I hold dear. This I do not want, so I have come to the point where I have decided to quit reading and posting on this blog.

This is a personal decision and not because of any one or group of individuals. I simply feel that for now my time could be of better use in other endeavors. I may at some point in the future continue blogging, I just don't know when that will be.

Thank you to all who have contributed, I have learned a lot from others, and hopefully the little I posted was helpful as well.

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

iitmoc-
I know you hate Warren as much as the rest of the people here. But please don’t lie and say that he teaches or has taught disloyalty to the Constitution of the United States. Especially the lie about being reprimanded for flying the flag. We believe the U.S. government was set up by God for the purpose of making a shelter for the Gospel to be re-established on earth. But we also believe that Joseph Smith was a prophet when he wrote the 10th article of faith.

"I" (me personally) contend that the government is NOW run by the Anti-freedom, un-American fear mongering, fascists. Who can run for office? (Mussolini would be proud)

Fascism is a system of government that disenfranchises the workers, and gives only the controllers of big businesses the right to govern.


It is interesting how you are eager to believe all the conspiracy theories regarding the FLDS, but none about your own government.

I KNOW that September 11 was a terrorist attack, by planes flown by suicide Jihadists. But If you could just open your eyes and see WHO funded them, and WHO has made the most money, and gained the most power by them? Big oil, Defense contractors, and citizen control. Obvious.

Liberals want big government in Welfare, Neo-Cons want big government military. Democrat-Republican, same party.

The biggest conspiracy that has been perpetrated by the Fascist One World, ANTI-American's against free America is:

Who owns the Federal Reserve Bank?
Where does all the national debt interest money go?
How in the free-American way did Income Tax become required?

Go watch a video called "The Money Masters" on Google Video and be amazed by truth.

CTR

furnace said...

Every conspiracy theory I have heard from the FLDS is also making its rounds on the internet. They aren't the only who reject lunar landings. They aren't the only ones looking for an alternate explanation to the twin-tower disaster. One man told me that empty remote-controlled planes crashed into the towers, while the real planes were shot down by the military over the ocean, and all this to put blame on terrorists when the terrorists were really our own government. I didn't believe one word of it, but I did find that view to be making its rounds on the internet.

Now, not all the FLDS deny lunar landings or get caught up with conspiracy theories.

Anonymous said...

CTR

There are indeed a lot of problems in the world. That is one of the main reasons people get caught up in cults; they feel that the cult is a security blanket against the ills of society. This hope is even found in their theology--all the wicked except them (and those capable of being converted) will be destroyed. They don't want to face the big, mean, dog-eat-dog world.

Anonymous said...

The Prophet Joseph Smith Jr. said

"the time will come when you will hear of Wars, Wars, and rumors of Wars, BUT little do you know the hearts of men in your own country."

The Lord said

"Not one word UTTERED by the Prophets will fall UNHEEDED to the ground."

Anonymous said...

Back when there was a "priesthood council", it was the belief of council members that a man never set foot on the moon. At least that is what they were saying in the 1970's. If Rulon Jeffs didn't believe that, then he was keeping silent about it back then.

Rulon Jeffs was on the board of Hydrapak, the company that made the faulty o-ring and I am sure that he had no doubts about spacecraft going into outer space. But going to the moon is a different issue. If Rulon Jeffs, or any other former council member, claimed that man did land on the moon, then that is contrary to what was coming from the council in the seventies.

muggsey said...

11:37

Where have you been???? Certainly not on planet earth over the past five years. Do you honestly believe that there were no WMD in "Irag"? Masses of Iraqui people and nearly 3000 Americans have been killed since we first bombed the Iraqui homeland and took out Saddam and his two murderous sons. Don't you remember the warehouses along the route that were abandoned just recently? Do you remember what the soil samples from those warehouses discovered? Residue of Chemical Weapons, the same type that killed so many Iraqui Kurds.

Do you remember just how many "Insurgents" have been found to be tied to Osama Bin Laden? Do you think that the people who are blowing themselves up with explosives and kill several hundred people each week are not mass killing terrorists? Do sane people, who have seen their neighbors come out of the polls from free elections with purple thumbs, smiling because they were able to vote, go tie 20#'s of plastic explosives to their body and drive a vehicle next to a recruiting office and set the explosive off, destroying themselves, the automobile, surrounding buildings and people.

Incidently, recruitment among the Iraqui people has not diminished. They know that they are at risk just to go stand in line in an attempt to be considered as Iraqui recruit in the militia.

Why is it that everytime "facts" are stated in an argument between democrats and the rupublicans who state the facts, as exemplified today by the partisan accusal that the president took unfair position in his address to the nation last night becaused he described both Iraq and Afganistan as Terrorist Activities?

If you are one of those individuals who can't be pursuaded by fact, you will go on with life believing anything you see on any blog as truth.

All I ask is for is for you to weigh the information. Check out the facts. Are people dying in other lands as the result of terrorist attacks? Why have those attacks been held in check here in the U.S?

We Americans are a trusting, caring, but extremely naive people. We want to think the best of everyone. Our push over the past fifteen years toward "political correctness" has compromised our safety. We are a ripe target, the most powerful and wealthiest nation ever, and personally pretty corrupt.

Our self interest served at any price, will eventually be our downfall.

Gossips rule the day, from Hollywood to the press to the T.V. networks, to our towns and neighborhoods. Quoting John Foster Dulles, Eisenhower's Secretary of State, "we live in a moment of brinkmanship." We, at any moment, are on the brink of destruction. Why? Because men with a hidden agenda, such as Osama, Saddam the Dictatorial President of Venezuela, and countless other ruthless heads of state and crime syndicates await with hope for an opening to attack. You desire conspiracy theories realized, keep an eye on these guys plus the various terrorist groups in the middle-east.

Why? Because they are children of the Devil and need no other reason to kill innocent women and children.

I rest my case.

Anonymous said...

Muggsey,

I have looked at the evidence and I find that the government lied to the American people. They have used terrorism to advance our political agenda into the middle east.

There were no Bin Ladin ties until we went into Iraq. We know they had minor stuff. Why did we go after Iraq? Why not North Korea or Iran?

Now we have thousands of terrorist living in Iraq. We have no crediblity with the Arab's or the rest of the world. They think we lied to them so now we have a lot more enemys. How many millions of Arab's are training right now to kill Americans.

How many more of our civil liberties must we give up for security?

Anonymous said...

Bye IITMOC

YOU WILL BE MISSED. THANK YOU FOR YOUR POSTS. I AM COMFORTED YOU ARE OUT THERE, WITH A SOUND MIND.

Anonymous said...

How many more of our civil liberties must we give up for security?

All of them.

Like Jefferson said, (paraphrasing)

When people are willing to sacrifice liberty for secruity, they will neither have, nor deserve either.

ATAR_i said...

IITMOC

You probably won't see this, but if you do - I'll miss you. You are top notch in my book. Intelligent, insightful, truthfull, humerous, and humble. Your family is extremely lucky.

Don't let them throw you out, fight to stay, fight for the family you created - they will not be better off without you. You are in my thoughts, and I will always wonder what happened to you after you left.

If, in a while you want to email me, or just blog about how you are doing - I'd appreciate it.

Ciao

muggsey said...

6;46

I COULD CONTINUE TO GIVE YOU FACT AFTER FACT, DAY AFTER DAY BUT, YOU HAVE MADE UP YOUR MIND THAT THERE IS A CONSPIRACY WITHIN THE GOVERNMENT REGARDING TERORISM.

THAT, PERHAPS, A CLOSED MIND, IS THE MOST DIFFICULLT OF CHASMS TO CROSS. I COULDN'T PURSUADE YOU TO QUIT READING SPY NOVELS THAT ABOUND WITH CONSPIRACY THEORIES. YOU HAVE BEGUN TO TAKE, AS TRUTH, INSTEAD OF A FABRICATION TO SELL BOOKS, AS TRUTH. YOU WILL NOT BE CHANGED.

Anonymous said...

So Muggsey have you ever considered yourself the closed minded?

I love the Jefferson quote

When people are willing to sacrifice liberty for security, they will neither have, nor deserve either.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. The facts are that we are giving up liberty for security.

TBM said...

CTRWho owns the Federal Reserve Bank?
The American people.

Where does all the national debt interest money go?

As with any debt, the interest goes to whoever lent the money -- foreign governments, foreign banks, American banks, treasury bond investors, other investors, private financiers -- the list is endless.
How in the free-American way did Income Tax become required?

You can't run a government without it. How would you like to live in a country with no government? Somalia, for example. Most of Afganistan. And let's admit it, Iraq.

muggsey said...

I remember the late 50's & 60's when the John Birch Society was running loud and strong. I vividly remember having read one of their booklets concerning the connection between Marx, Engles, rhodes Scholarships, The London School of Economics, The Tri-Lateral Commission, the Brookings Institute, and the Council on foreign Relations. All these were supposed to be in cahoots for the purpose of ensuring communism would prevail and that only the proletariate, or those with great wealth (and therefore great wisdom) would rule the world.

Communism was a "bust" in the Soviet Union. It has been Capitalized in Red China and is proving to be a disaster in both North Korea and Cuba. But, individuals still buy into the dogma that 'someone is out to get me' therefore there must be a conspiracy.

I beleve that the greatest possible source of conspiracy is the Congress of the United States, the Judiciary, and especially the Diplomatic Corps. Term Limits would solve the congressional problem but, it will never pass since the fox is in charge of the hen house. Not all congressmen or women are corrupt but, the longer they stay in office the more I am suspect of their real agenda.

The courts, appointed for life have only to justify themselves one time, at their appointment. The only possible way to even question them aftward is to bring charges of impeachment. This accontability needs to be reviewed and adjustments made.

Of all the representives of our government I detest the diplomatic corps the most. Each diplomat becomes God over their embassay and become bedfellows, literly, with those who would take our lives, our liberty and our wealth.

Strong dicipline should follow any diplomats action that would thwart the intelligence efforts of the United States against potential threats to security, both at home and abroad. if that means being able to listen in on telephone conversations between known terrorists calling individuals within the United States and those same individuals calling others whether in the U.S. or abroad, the intelligence service should be able to listen to their conversations. I don't have conversations with anyone that I would object to a government official listening to because I have nothing to hide. In this day of instant messaging and spy in the sky capability we need to have instantanious ability to thwart terrorist activities. 911 was a Bin Laden event, there is no proof otherwise. 911 would serve no purpose to George W. Bush. He is not a lawyer. He holds B.A. from Yale and M.B.A. from Harvard. You don't graduate from those two univeristies by being stupid. His good-old-boy attitude and his high moral values and genuine concern for the average American is real. He is not a Bill Clinton look alike nor act alike. He publicly has stated repeatedly that he will NOT govern by poll. I say hooray, it's about time!

TBM said...

Muggsey: The courts, appointed for life have only to justify themselves one time, at their appointment. The only possible way to even question them aftward is to bring charges of impeachment. This accontability needs to be reviewed

Appointments for life was a policy adopted by the Founding Fathers, and I agree with it. If a Supreme Court judge is accountable, he can be pressurized to make a political ruling rather than execute the law. If the judge does end up abusing his office, he can be impeached, but the point of the Congressional investigation at the time of appointment is to establish the judge's character and integrity, and history shows that it usually works.

What you don't want is innocent people being convicted, unjust laws being enforced, Constitutional rights being undermined, and the government becoming tyrannical, because the Supreme Court judges were worried that they might lose their jobs unless they voted a particular way. Justice is not, and should never be, democratic.

muggsey said...

I don't disagree with your statement. I don't think that a Judge's job should hinge upon the political correctness of his/her decisions. I do hovever believe that impeachment processes should be a bit easier to impose. Especially when a judge continues to rule against an established precident, especially those related to basic law based upon early determinations made by the Jay and Marshall Courts. It was these courts that established the fact that we as a nation was built upon Christian principles.

Reference to Divinity, God, the ten commandments, statuary depicting early establishment of law based upon biblical principles should be considered as the foundation of this nation appear throughout the buildings in Washington D.C. and in many of the buildings scattered nationwide and under the governance of the State Governments.

For instance, a witness appearing before a court to give testimony is sworn to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. The term, "So Help Me God" was a part of that oath for over two hundred years of our nation's history. Now, an individual swears to tell the truth, whole truth and nothing but the truth. There is no presumed punishment for the individual who wants to lie under oath. To prove purgery is a difficult task. In order for the sworn oath to have teeth, consequences for lying should be beyond the reason of man and left to the power of an all knowing Supreme Being. No, there is still no way to know if the individual is telling the truth but, one of the questions that should follow the oath is to require the witness to describe to the judge and jury just whom he believes 'god' to be. The weight of this ('who is god') testimony should be considered in taking that witnesses evidence into account, especially if the testimony, taken at face value, would have some benefit for the witness, directly or indirectly. Many people will sware to anything, especially if they think that whether or not they are telling the truth is of no consequence now or in eternity.

ATAR_i said...

I think our highest court HAS TO BE for life. Their jobs are not in jeopardy if they have an unpopular opinion.

They ARE responsible to uphold the laws of this country, and live to extremely high standards. I think any judge sitting on that bench must prove themselves to have the highest regard for the ethics of law, judicial conduct, and be extremely adept in their knowledge and practice of law.

Now, as to term limits. I think indeed we need some in offices that don't currently have them. We need a little new blood, a little less politicking, and more work needs to get done.

.02

muggsey said...

The Supreme Court is to interpret laws passed by a publicly elected legislature. It is the court's responsability to determine the constitutality of a particular law, not to re-write that law in ANY form.

Over the past fifty years we have increaseingly seen the Court, in effect, write law instead of interpret law. I firmly believe that this is absolutely and totally unconstitutional. Their acts and rulings are in opposition to the constitution regarding division of powers. The Executive and Legislative do not ajudicate or interpret law. Using the same standard, the Court should, in no way, be allowed to write or endorse legislation.

If the court determines a particular law unconstitutional it should be returned to the legislative process for change or improvment, not re-written to a pre-judged standard established by a five-four vote of the court. The vote of the court should only be yea or nay.

Really, that which is decreed by the court is not the law, but a revision devised to better suit the court's majority. As such I believe that legislative challenge should be begun to establish that the duties of the Supreme Court are limited to the exact specifications determined in the original document of the Constitution. If an amendment to the Constitution is the only solution to the problem then the process should move toward that end.

If this axiom of justice is true for the Supreme Court it should be doubly so for lower courts. Lower courts have repeatedly overturned or ruled against the rule of common sense.

A graduating High School Senior who happens to have earned the distinction of being valadictorian can, because of court rule, not the law of the land, neither mention God nor the name of Jesus in their address. It is however permissable for them to mention any other Religion's founder, any philosopher, any person of academic renoun, regardless of their effect on humanity.

How is Justice served in by this example? Christmas has been defamed and demoted to being a winter Holiday. In some instances traditional Christmas decorations, having been traditional in both homes and schools, are now outlawed because the mention of Jesus' birth might be offensive to some Islamic student, even though no known Muslims live within two hundred miles of the school district.

I am sick and tired of the courts ruling where they have no business ruling. Sticking their pseudo-intelectual and all-knowing noses into events that they don't understand nor care to understand.
Their whole concept of Christmas is Ho! Ho! Ho!, a laughing Santa, a hot toddy and a cup of egg nog. Geting drunk on Christmas Eve and staying that way until New Year's day is the celebration of choice for the ACLU and it's cronies on the court.

These self serving courts are a festering boil on the buttocks of the United States.

The purpose of the court is to rule on law, and protect liberty, not issue license.

In efect: Your liberty stops right before it comes into contact with my nose. If you don't like what I write, don't read it. If you don't like Christmas Carols coming from my Church at Christmas time, stay away. If you don't like a particular program endorsing Christianity turn off your T.V. I exercise the same priviledge in rebellion to your foul contributions every day.

If you don't like the declaration by a student of their love for Christ, buy yourself some ear plugs. I don't have to tell you to go to hell. I don't have to make the judgement call regarding your salvation. It's your choice to make in your own behalf.

Anonymous said...

tbm-
The American people do not own the private bank called the Federal Reserve Bank. Other private banks do. It may have an appointed board of governors, but its income is not given to the government, and you cannot buy shares in the FED. Your money in your pocket is printed by the Treasury for the Federal Reserve Bank.
That bank has never been audited since its inception in 1913.

“The colonies would gladly have borne the little tax on tea and other matters had it not been that England took away from the colonies their money, which created unemployment and dissatisfaction. The inability of the colonists to get power to issue their own money permanently out of the hands of George III and the international bankers was the PRIME reason for the Revolutionary War” -Benjamin Franklin

Had Jefferson had his way:
“I wish it were possible to obtain a single amendment to our Constitution; Taking from the federal government their power of borrowing” -Thomas Jefferson

It is definitely possible to run the government without income tax. There are a lot of other taxes that could be, and have been made without requiring private individuals to report their income to the government. The best one of course is the tariff. Nothing benifits a nations industry more.(Which the income tax was in its inception, a tariff on personal foreign income)

There was one year in U.S. history where the government printed its own money, 1862, it was called the greenback dollar.

“The Government should create, issue, and circulate all the currency and credit needed to satisfy the spending power of the Government and the buying power of consumers. The privilege of creating and issuing money is not only the supreme prerogative of Government, but it is the Governments greatest creative opportunity… By adoption of these principles the taxpayers will be saved immense sums of interest. Money will cease to be master and become the servant of humanity” -Abraham Lincoln


“Let me issue and control a nations money, and I care not who rights the laws”
-Amshell Rothschild 1790

Now you know why it is easy for me to believe in conspiracies.


Also-
Had the founding fathers created the judicial portion of the 3 parts of the government similar to the Nephite government, it would work better. Having a unanimous group of lower court judges able to remove a judge from the higher court.


mugs-
I agree with your posts 120% The 20% would include religious polygamy.

CTR

TBM said...

The Supreme Court is to interpret laws passed by a publicly elected legislature. It is the court's responsability to determine the constitutality of a particular law, not to re-write that law in ANY form.

I hear what you're saying about Christmas and Christianity in schools, Muggsey, and to a large extent I agree with you (now there's a first!!!!!). But when it comes to "writing" law, what the law actually says is not always clear. That's is why appeals happen, because one side or the other thinks the judge has made a mistake, or failed to take something into consideration.

The key word here is interpretation. Laws rarely say anything that is absolutely black and white. There's always vague bits leaving room for flexibility. Judges have to look at the wording of the law books, compare it to the case they are judging, look at how other courts have applied the law's wording to similar cases (if there are any), and then make a judgement call -- that's why they're called judges!

But new cases keep come up with special circumstances which challenge the way the law has been interpreted in the past. What are the judges supposed to do? They have to make a ruling. Saying "We're going to do nothing for months or even years until the legislature passes an amendment to the law as it stands" -- is not an option. So they make a decision. And because all courts are expected to apply the law equally, the law is, in effect, re-written.

It's not a matter of the judges arbitrarily deciding to make a new law where none existed before. Sadly, it's not that simple.

ATAR_i said...

Mugs - I read your notice - and tried to see who you were responding too, because you were all heated up.

Who were you responding to? - other than a short post by myself and TBM, you were the only other poster.

I don't know that you would get much disagreement from me about the sterilization of our ability to express ourselves in certain forums (like schools)

muggsey said...

atar_i

I read a line from a post, I thought it was on this one so I went back and read them all but can't find the one that 'heated' me up now. The line alluded to our God Given Rights. It may not have been on this thread. The whole idea of any freedom beeing God Given is absurd. God may grant to us the ability to choose right from wrong but, it is up to us as citizens to guarantee that we and our children live to enjoy those rights.

ATAR_i said...

: )

Anonymous said...

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed"

muggsey said...

life, liberty & the pursuit of happiness. Fine. OK with me. Does it address justice? How about freedom? Joy? How about anarchy? attacks from hostile terrorists? et. al.

Then there is this small disclaimer "from the consent of the governed." Small phrase but carries tremendous potential. Shouldn't that one phrase carry as much weight as the rest of the declaration?

Anonymous said...

mugs-
Is it not obvious to you that anytime the government STOPS protecting God given rights, the government is the problem, and not the rights?

The government loses its right to govern when their power stops being JUST. Majority should not matter.

The Constitution was meant to outline what the federal government should, or could, do, and the Bill of Rights was what they should NOT and could NOT do.

Of course now it is backwards.

The Bill of Rights should not be, or have even been, up for discussion.


CTR

Anonymous said...

Here is the LINK to the actual 3 departments of the government. Look at the bottom of the graph.
Republican= Defense
Democrat= Welfare
Bank= Dictatorial Department of Decision Making. (The owner of your house, your car, etc.)

The National Debt is borrowed from the Federal Reserve System (private bank). It is growing at 1.7 BILLION per day.

Notice how we have a perceived good economy when the Deficit is higher? It is because the Banking System is based on debt. And our standard of living is based on debt. The money supply is generated by borrowing it. More money = good economy = more debt. The money supply is created by the government. The supply is created by borrowing it. The reserves of the Fed bank is your Income.

That is a conspiracy fact.

CTR

ATAR_i said...

What is a conspiracy fact?

Is it fact that a conspiracy exists, just as you say it does, where you say it does?

Or is it an objective fact, that you believe is a conspiracy?

muggsey said...

I echo atar_i's assessment.

The terms Republicn, Democrat, and Bank are too broad for specifics. As long as there are individuals who don't really trust themselves, or anyone else there will be conspiracy theories. Granted there are in all probability small groups who would do anything to gain control, of even our smallest political subdivisions. an effective conspiracy would have to include political power, finance and military might. Any of the three missing links would cause the conspiracy to fail. Stability at any of the three would also guarantee lack of success. Military coups have been attempted and in some nations perfected the take over of that nation. One thing needs to be noticed. A country that is born of a military conspircy will end by the same manner. The politically powered conspiracy gaining predominant force of opinion has the greater opportunity of success.

Example: The thirteen independent colonies in British America became united politically, collectivly went home and assisted in rasing milita to support the cause, went to war with the mightyiest nation on earth, England and won their independence. It was only then that banking was established and that only following the estaablishment of a permanant government. Militas' were under the governance of the individual states. One of the guarantees of the constitution was that the Federal Government, in a nationally expressed need could call and establish an army and navy.

The Civil War was, in it's own way a conspiracy, led by thirteen states of the south who did not want to bend to the rule of pending abolishment of slavery. The argued statute for the establishment of the Confederacy was "states rights" but in actually the issue was slavery.

Time has elapsed, there are still groups who, because of their own peculiar and unusual reasoning believe that they have a better manner of governing people. They raise their heads occasionally and usually die from lack of interest or the death of their leader at the hand of an even more despotic member of the club. And so the cycle goes on and on.

Things that go around tend to come around. There is no perfect form of government formed by man. Only with Christ as King can we enjoy an internal and eternal freedom from the hoaxes and plotting of "little men."

onthestreet said...

The government of "THE" God of all equals THE-ocracy, the perfect government, if it indeed follows all of His law and His designated authority.

muggsey said...

If you live for the millenial reign of Jesus you will experience a THE-ocracy. I just can't help but wonder how you will survive the tribulation in order to experience meeting Jesus face to face.

onthestreet said...

Correct Les. That is what we live for. That is what we experience. To wonder is good, for God's work is "a marvelous work and a wonder".

Anonymous said...

If you only get your news from the mass media, and learn history from "approved" textbooks, then your will never see the conspiracy.


Watch This version of history. It might not all be true, but it is definately compelling. The financial version of history.

Watch This clip of a PBS documentary on the Iran Contra scandal.

And watch This To see the most incredible video.

If even the smallest of any of these is true, then there is definately a hidden agenda.

CTR

Anonymous said...

How's the FLDS any different; they only teach "Priesthood" history; all other history is "irrelevant and worthless".

onthestreet said...

We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

muggsey said...

Wow! some conclusion! did you think that up all by yourself?

Anonymous said...

Muggsey--that is a cut and paste from one of the Mormon's "Articles of Faith."

muggsey said...

Very good - - -

Did you just say that GOD made some things known in the past, is making others things known now and will reveal future events in the future?

You know what! I've known those facts nearly all of my considerable life span.

Anonymous said...

mugs-
even ones NOT in the Bible?

CTR

muggsey said...

A simple answer to a simple question. God knows all, therfore is not stumped by the need of revelation at any time.

For instance, a person has been diagnosed as having a terminal disease and told by the doctor that he had X amount of time to live. In concern for his health and longivity, his friends and neighbors collectivly go to GOD in prayer and ask that the individual's life be spared. God hears and answer the prayer. The individual lives for another ten to twenty years.

Who should receive the glory? The sick man? The faithful prayer warriors? GOD to granted the request and extended the life?

The answer here is obvious. The praise and thanksgiving belong to the LORD.

Can man interceed in behalf of another individual? Yes, if the outcome is within GOD's will.

Remember the death pronouncement was made by a man. Men do not know or understand GOD'S love and mercy. We cn make a request by faith, believing that what ever the outcome might be it is GOD'S will.

Anonymous said...

The FLDS are so lousy at prophecying that they can't even get an elderly man "going the way of the earth" right. They prophecy that he will lieve 320 years IN THIS LIFE. Then, in denial, we try to convince ourselves that the prophecy somehow is now fulfilled. George Orwell stated, "a lie repeated often
enough becomes the 'truth'" That's how cults work; circular lying until it becomes the 'truth'.

There was a thread some months ago, maybe even a year, about failed prophecies. When the "prophet" prophecies that someone will be found in thus-and-such a place, and search-and-rescue doesn't find them there, how will that prophecy be fullfilled? He weren't where Warren said he would be. Too late.

Anonymous said...

Warren did not say where Jerry would be. I could tell you all about it, but I would be wasting my time.

CTR

ATAR_i said...

Or CTR, would you be providing information that could be refuted?

You have been the author of many a long post, thus, I suspect your motive for keeping quiet - AND I'M CALLING YOU ON IT.

I don't buy the excuse above - you either don't know, or aren't telling because the facts do not bode well for your case.

I believe if you had information that exonerated a 'true prophecy' of warren you would share WITH RELISH.

Anonymous said...

The post would take more prose than even long-winded street can put out to twist that incident around.

Anonymous said...

It appears Warren only tried this once, since you knew exactly who 2:13 was referring to. He must have gotten wrong if he has never tried it again.

Anonymous said...

I for one would be happy to read a long post if you'd please describe "that incident" for those of us who have no idea what you're talking about.

fttc said...

I second the motion. I keep hearing little snippets about the search and rescue 'inspiration' but have never heard the full account. CTR Please! Please! Tell us what happened.

Anonymous said...

The reason I didn’t tell you all about it is I don’t have enough time in the day to type everything I could on this blog. Besides, everything I type is refuted. If even by rumor, it is automatically considered proof.

I knew Deloy Bateman's faithful son Jerry. I talked to him for quite a while after he was rescued. Some of those who went looking for Jerry had gone to Uncle Warren and asked him where to look. He said "Go south". Jerry was found after he himself turned around and went south, and found a telephone to call for help. That is the extent of the prophesy.

Here is the whole story for your enjoyment:

Jerry went on a Sunday drive with his wife and children; he went up the Highway 89 to the east entrance to Zion National Park. There is a dirt road that connects Hwy 9 to Navajo lake on Hwy 14. It is a road he had never been on, nor even knew where it went, but he was exploring. He was driving on this northerly route for a ways when it began snowing really hard. He did not realize how long the road was, so he kept going expecting to come out the other end. But then the truck he was driving lost its transmission. It would only go in reverse, so he tried to turn around in reverse, and got the truck severely stuck. He tried for a while to get unstuck, but stayed in the truck with it running to keep warm, and the snow coming down hard. When he realized it would run out of gas he decided to try to find shelter. It may have been the next day I can’t remember. He had passed a hunters trailer house and hiked back there and got inside where he made a place for his family. After he got them there, having no way of contacting anyone, he still though he was close to the North end of the road. He began hiking out; he trudged through the snow for hours until it began to get dark. He could see cars headlights way off in the distance so he kept going, he was in snow up to his waist, and it got really dark. Then he stopped; he stopped for no other reason other than he was impressed to go south. He could see cars, but he stopped and went back to the trailer; having hiked almost all night. On the morning of the third day, he hiked south instead of north. That road is over 40 miles long, and he was near the north end, but he went south anyway. He hiked for a while and then saw a small cabin up in the brush; he hiked up there and found a snowmobile, which he hotwired. It was out of gas, and he had never driven one before, but he still drove it south the 40 miles to Mount Carmel Junction, which took quite a while. There he called home. He had no idea that there were hundreds of people out looking for him, and that the entire community was praying for him.

There you have it, my fingers are tired, and I doubt I have done any good for you. But at least you know. Every so-called “failed prophesy” is similar. Those who hate us use it as an excuse to not believe. That is fine, don’t believe, but realize there are many who DO believe, and they are just as smart as you.


CTR

Anonymous said...

I don't know which mountain Jerry was stranded on, but S&R were looking on the right mountain and would have likely found him any minute, but Warren's "inspiration" drew them away from the right place and to another mountain.

Anonymous said...

anon-
you proved my point. I bet most of the people here believe your rumor over my facts.

CTR

Anonymous said...

CTR, at the time I posted, your post wasn't yet approved.

Anonymous said...

CTR
You didn't explain why the S&R also went south (pun intended)

Anonymous said...

Every "successful" prophecy has the pieces put together after the fact, memories of "being impressed", etc. Well, I am not FLDS, and I have had impressions that turned out correct, too. Maybe Jerry was impressed to go south, but S&R also pulled off the corrent mountain and went south. It sounds like the prophecy was more vague than a daily horoscope, and yet I wouldn't consider it fulfilled; he was telling S&R to go south, but true to FLDS nature, it was twisted around to Warren meaning Jerry was to head south.

I knew you could find a way to twist it around.

ATAR_i said...

I still don't understand how 'head south' is a prophecy at all.

I'm rather suprised that's what all this hullabaloo is about.

That's the 'big prophecy' that proves he's a prophet - that's just whacked.

fttc said...

CTR

Thank you for the account. I am sorry it tired you so. Are you saying in your subsequent posts that the S&R did not get close to Jerry (being on the same mountain as Anon inferred) and pull back to look elsewhere? You did not say much about the S&R team. Was it just rumor that did not happen?

I am really not trying to challenge you on this though you may not see it any other way. I was sincere in my post above when I requested your account of what happened.

Concerning your statement about the rumors being believed above your statement of fact, I have some thoughts to share. There are very few posters on this blog who have acknowledged who they really are. When I post I purposely leave details out that would allow someone to trace who I am. I assume you do the same as you have repeatedly stated you wish to remain anonymous. As long as this is the case can anyone take what is posted here as anything but rumor? This would include your own statements as well as mine.

Unless you can establish it as fact that you were present when the 'prophecy' was given you have no more credence than anyone else on the blog. This has nothing to do with the character of any poster. (I don't believe you are a dishonest person). Nor the truthfulness of any religion. (Be it warrenism, winstonism or any of the various christian groups that are represented here). It is the inherent nature of a dialogue such as this. We can share our ideas and perspectives here and that is really all.

I am very glad you have continued to post. You are doing more good than you seem to realize. You have shown that several of the notions put forth by Street are not FLDS tenets. Before you came along he was the main poster that spoke in behalf of the FLDS and he did nothing to quell the rumors. You probably will not change my mind about many things. I don't think you will convert Atar or any of the most outspoken posters here. I am finding out that there are very many readers for every poster and you will help them get a better picture of the whole issue. There are two sides to every story and your side has been lacking in those who will talk.

Anonymous said...

Search and Rescue went everywhere. They did not "stop" looking on any of the mountains. The CC/Hildale S&R is part of Washington County, he was lost in Kane county. Those who went to Uncle Warren did go south, and of course did not find him. I am not trying to prove it was prophesy, I am just telling you that it was not "failed prophesy" either.

fttc-
Thank you, I really needed that. I hope I have a bigger audience than those without ears. I can see how my side is lacking.

CTR

Anonymous said...

atari-
last night I read your post about your dying relative for the first time, and I wrote a really long reply, but I got WAY too personal. So I deleted it.

I did not think I was here on this blog to prove my religion is right,or to make anyone convert. I post on here to tell everyone that there is a REASON I believe. That MY faith is not blind. That I am not a victim of stupidity because I want to obey Warren Jeffs. But it seems that I HAVE to convince people that my religion is TRUE, in order for them to let go of the worst lies that they hear about the FLDS. To help them realize they are NOT doing good by trying to destroy my religious freedom.

Amen :)

CTR

Anonymous said...

I forgot to add the punch line:
Had Jerry continued North, he would have gotten to the road after it was closed because of the Snowstorm. He said he was at least two miles away when he stopped, and on the other side of a lake he could not see and did not know was there.


CTR

Anonymous said...

Many things I thought were lies I found to be true once I dared get out of Egypt and away from "de Nile".

Now one apostate LIE doesn't mean everything is true. Neither does one faith promoting story mean everything is perfect.

I would gladly leave you alone if I had been left alone. However, I am thankful that the FLDS eventudally did get the hint that my wife wasn't going to leave me. I know others that weren't as fortunate as me. One case where even after the wife agreed with the husband that she would stay with him, the husband leaves, and the pressure is immediately put on the wife and she left her husband.

IF YOU WANT TO NOT BE PERSECUTED FOR YOU RELIGION, LEAVE OTHER MEN'S FAMILIES ALONE. As I told LDS father, NO ONE knows better than he does what is best for his family. I certainly didn't like deciding the best thing for my family was to leave, and then having to hide my wife for a while to keep the FLDS goons to keep their distance. There was a failed attempt to steal her behind my back while I was at work that failed simply because the goons didn't know where she was (an insider--traitor in your eyes--leaked this out to me). I had to get home to hide her elsewhere before the goons got there. I don't know what would have happened had not the insider leaked out to me what was going on.

FYI--Warren instructed the kidnapping behind my back.

Anonymous said...

oops, I meant to say "One apostate lie doesn't mean it is all a LIE"

Anonymous said...

Wow, kidnapping? Come on! You sure it is not you who has kidnapped your wife? What does SHE think about the whole deal? You speak as if she is property. Is SHE happy? Let her go if she wants to. She will come back if she loves you most. I know we are all free to choose. Even the girls.

CTR

Anonymous said...

CTR

You are doing your argument more harm than good. You are showing that the FLDS believe they have a right to "get the girl away from her apostate husband come hell or high water."

If I went drove into a city and went into a house at random and tried to get the wife to leave the husband behind his back, what would any decent husband do. Say, "she's not my property, take her if she wants you instead of me" NO! I could expect a few holes in my torso, and rightfully so. Does that mean that man is treating his wife as property?

When a man and wife need time to think things over, a bunch of goons trying to break up a family is the last thing they need.

By now, the wife is glad I defended her and even told others and word has gotten back to me, so I know it isn't a coerced statement from her, but anything else is private and NONE OF YOUR DAMN BUSINESS--DAMMIT, stay out of other people's families. You act like she is FLDS property and the FLDS have a right to get her back.

If there is one reason Warren should spend life in prison locked up, it is for interfering with other's families behind the man's back. LEAVE THE WOMEN ALONE AND LET THEM CHOOSE. You've got it backwards. You say, "Steal the women, and if she is determined enough, she'll eventually find a way back to her husband, assuming he can find her"

Anonymous said...

I consider it kidnapping send a high and holy person over behind my back and pressure the wife by telling her in all sacred holiness that what I am doing is wrong, and they are to take her away and not let me see her or the child. It's cultish no matter how you look at it.

Fortunately, this was broken up by a man of integrity who warned the "man-of-the-house" because he didn't want to go behind my back. I was fortunate enough to work in town at the time and got over quick enough to stop it.

Any man of decency will stay out of another man's house and not seduce his wife behind his back. It's seduction no matter how you look at it to pressure her into breaking her marital vows with "holy BS". It's just as immoral as convincing her to have an affair while the man is gone. It's still violating another man's house, and yes, I will use the term "another man's house" and let you call it property. This tendency of Warren's to violate men's houses behind their back alone tells me he is one hell of an immoral man.

feralfem said...

CTR

How can you say "we are all free to choose" if from the cradle you are indoctrinated with fear of damnation and of losing the love, camaraderie and support of your family, friends and community if you make the "wrong" choice.

Choosing out of fear is NOT true choice.

Choose what you've been told all your life is the "right" choice or suffer an unproven consequence (damnation) and top it with a horrendous observable consequence (loss of family).

Some choice!!

fttc said...

CTR

My point was that you cannot prove your religion true here. It is not because no one will listen. It is not because anyone thinks there is no good in the FLDS. It is because it is outside the parameters of this blog.

You have succeeded in showing there are those intelligent enough in the FLDS to hold their own here. You have succeeded in putting some of OTS's garbage to rest. You can only express your opinions and experiences here and let people judge them for what they are. We all see things differently. None of us have all of the truth.

There have been a few posts that have seethed with hatred from Anons. Other than those few posters are reacting to what has been posted here and your side is practically untold. I think if you will be honest there are issues that really are a problem in the FLDS. And yes, there are posts that are entirely based on rumor without facts to back them up.

You may not be promoting the S&R incident with Jerry as a prophecy fulfilled. There are those in the FLDS that did and do. I think you are taking things here a little too personal. YOU are not the FLDS. You are only one little voice and person in the group. YOUR experiences are not everyones. You have a common point with those following warren in that you are doing just that, following warren. I know for a certainty that the FLDS does not speak as one voice. There are about as many interpretations of warrenism as there are members in the group. As I said above, I do appreciate YOUR voice.

Anonymous said...

CTR
You sidestepped into a flame war, but this thread already kept taking tangents. Why did S&R leave the correct mountain if "Go South" was meant to reach Jerry through spiritual telepathy?

Anonymous said...

Man o man do I need a new hobby.


8:44-
I sincerely hope you and your family find happiness. I am in no way saying a man should not defend his family; nor am I advocating going around your back. (I doubt she had nothing to do with it.) I AM defending your wife in choosing for herself. I REQUIRED that of my wife, from the first day we met. If she agrees with you in principle, you never have to worry.

feralfem-
We don’t believe that damnation is anything worse than disappointment. (TPJS pg357) We define "Eternal" to mean "From God". (D&C 19:10-12)
Hell is no worse than being alive like we are here. Except that if we die again there, we REALLY die. Dissolution (the second death) will be mercy; freedom from disappointment. Exaltation, on the other hand is to become fathers and mothers of children in heaven. Eternal increase. There are many who will have eternal life without eternal increase.

Eternal damnation is disappointment because we KNOW we displease God. And we KNOW we are not worthy of exaltation.

My ONLY fear is that I don't please God. Faith is the opposite of fear. Our RIGHT to choose is the right to choose what WE believe to be TRUE. IF we WILLINGLY choose to do what we KNOW to be WRONG, our choice has been made, and there are results that we cannot choose. A wife will never leave her husband if they both agree and DO what is TRUE to both of them. Families separate because someone CHOSE to do what they KNEW was WRONG. Believe me, I KNOW.

To lose my LIFE is better than to choose wrong in my faith. (Lectures on Faith 6:7)
My family is not "mine" anyway, they belong to God, until God decides I am worthy, and I will find out when I am resurrected.

fttc-
It DOESNT MATTER if I or THEY believe it to be prophesy. We have that privilege. And you can believe it to be a bunch of nonsense. I am saying that it is a FACT that it was not "false prophesy". Neither Jerry nor his family was in any way put in more danger by his words.

10:52-
Search and Rescue did NOT leave the correct mountain. Those who went south were never on it in the first place. There were snowmobiles on the trail to his family within an hour.


Have a nice day.

CTR

Anonymous said...

Two of my sisters were removed from their husband while the husband was away. Quit denying that this behind-the-back nonsense is going on.

As far as a family not being mine, leave it alone until God himself judges me in the next life; not some self-appointed big brother.

What you KNOW to be wrong (leaving the FLDS), the husband KNOWS to be right. Religious convictions where both side KNOW they are right can be ugly.

If you want any credibility left on the blog, quit denying that you don't leave people alone who choose to leave. Quit denying that behind-your-back treachery has gone on.

Religious contentions are just plain ugly. People who just KNOW they are right are very dangerous. The WTC was destroyed by people who KNEW they were doing RIGHT. Us American KNOW WE ARE DOING WRONG, therefore, we SIN KNOWINGLY and must be destoryed.

You say families split up because one party chooses wrong. I disagree. I believe there have been family split-ups because someone didn't mind their own business and butted into another man's family business. I believe there are women who left their husbands that would still be with their husband if a flood of FLDS didn't come work them over emotionally.

One last point. I have never, not even once, tried to convince any FLDS woman to leave her husband or leave the religion; that would make me as low as Warren. Same with children; I have never tried to convince any of my brothers to leave. When my own mother asked me why I was making the choices I was making, I told her I wouldn't tell her without Father being present. I don't believe any man has the right to get a woman in a religious controversy without the husband present.

Anonymous said...

I honestly had no idea "behind the back" as you call it, was going on. If that makes me less credible, so be it. I think that if your wife agreed with you, you wouldn't feel threatened by "the goons" (probably her parents)at all anyway.

"Religious convictions where both side KNOW they are right can be ugly."
This is only true if either religion tries to ENFORCE their religion on the other. (As some Muslims, and the "religious" police show)

But this quote from you jumps out at me:

"I have never, not even once, tried to convince any FLDS woman to leave her husband or leave the religion"

You sure about that? What about your wife?

I support you in your decision to do what is RIGHT according to the dictates of your own conscience. I support you in trying to convert your wife. I also support HER seperate, but equal right to decide for herself if you or Warren Jeffs is right.

CTR

ATAR_i said...

CTR - I know what it's like to be stoned on a blog. Believe it or not, I went to the aimoo blog and had a good thrashing.

To them, I was brainwashed, uneducated and everything I said was garbage.

They didn't listen to me, they didn't understand me, it was frustrating, and I left.

You're probably a really decent fellow, you treat your wife and your family nice, and treat others with respect.

It probably frustrates you to no end that people associate you and your religion with all manner of hideous things when your intent is only to live in a righteous manner.

You read all our emails through a filter of being attacked, and your emails are read through a filter of evil masked in religious piety. The more we write, the less we read, the more we assume, the less we try to understand each other.

Perhaps we can try to wipe that slate clean, and start reading without our filters, reading thoroughly, and not responding in haste. Perhaps a more meaningful dialogue will emerge over time.

Anonymous said...

I'm no longer threatened, but a man that won't defend a family and allow hyenas in his home behind-his-back is not worthy of the title of Man. He is a puscillanimous coward, effeminate, wimpy, and not worthy of his Y chromosome. I was trying to get you to quit living in Egypt by de Nile. If you must know, she was done with the cult before I was, but I still question her ability to stand up if I hand't defended her. It took time for pressures to die down.

It pained me to see you tell IITMOC that he should change his name to CGWTLI (or something like that--can't get wife to lose integrity) It pains me that you are anxious for family break-ups. I believe IITMOC, like I told LDS father, knows what's best for his family; Warren doesn't know better than IITMOC does what is best for his family.

Let me prophecy, and I am sure I can do it better than Warren. Any man that is anxious to see another man lose his family because he is "apostate" will see all the family breakup his heart can handle.

The reason you get a good thrashing as atar_i puts it is you try to say "none of this goes on" and I'm trying to convince you it does.

If I reveal any more about the situation, some insiders that aren't really insiders will be handled by Warren's goons and their family lost.

Good bye

You can have the last word, CTR. I won't be replying any more to this thread, and I am probably done replying to CTR, as well.

Anonymous said...

Don't try to tell me the FLDS don't force others! Maybe not gentiles, but when a person tries to leave a cult, there is coercion.

Incidentally, the FLDS are violating Grandfather laws where fathers aren't allowed to see their children's children.

Shunning is a type of force. There are more forces in the universe than physical force. Magnetic forces are powerful enough to drive large motors, yet there is no physical contact between rotor and stator in a motor.

Anonymous said...

I admit I was not complete in my statement of: "Families separate because someone CHOSE to do what they KNEW was WRONG." That can mean two things.

1. One has done something they personally knew was wrong. (like me)
2. One has done something the other knew was wrong. (like in your example of the man and his wife)

CTR


Atari-
I appreciate your comments. But we all have to be totally honest and admit that we are on this blog for a reason, I post for a reason, you post for a reason. We have a purpose, We all post to accomplish something. And what is that something? To learn, or to teach?

I openly admit that I post not to learn, I post to teach. I openly admit that I have learned about what other people have experienced. I have learned about how people think. I have learned about how people portray their experiences. But I will never learn about Warren Jeffs or the FLDS doctrine here. I was taught too well. I know him too well.

I am reading posts through the filter of being attacked because, ..well, it is...what it is. Like a tree.



CTR

Anonymous said...

Atar_i

It's real easy to get along with the people at the aimoo blog. Just follow these simple rules.

(1) Don't let them know you believe in God.

(2) Don't let them know you're Republican (I don't know whether you are or not)

(3) Don't let them know you have more than two children.

If you believe any of these things are right, keep it to yourself when posting there.

ATAR_i said...

My cover is blown - I can never post there again. Not that I really want to, I tend to be more moderate, and despite all, this is a fairly moderate board.

CTR, initially I came to learn, I was drawn here because I lived a similar experience, and I understand more than you realize.

My whole life I spent defending my way of living against all the other people who thought I was in a cult. I didn't believe them, they were misinformed, uneducated, and completely wrong. They didn't understand the kingdom of God, they didn't understand God in the superspecial way we did, they were missing the truth, and weren't as special as our group was.

I looked down on everyone else and felt sorry that they would never understand, I felt SET APART for something greater. We wanted our own town, and our own police force, I was so excited!

I embraced my life with exuberance, my closeness and understanding of God with a sort of religious superiority (I didn't realize that at the time - I do now).

When it all came crashing down, and I realized the leaders had flaws they weren't willing to correct with the same humiliating experiences they expected of their followers. They didn't live up to the same standards they expected of the followers, and they didn't embrace the gospel in the way they exorted their followers to.

Who was I without this group? What was my relationship with God without this group? What was real? What was fake? I had no idea what to believe and what not to believe. They told me what to believe, and I followed because I trusted them. But when you lose that trust, what was real?

There were thousands of us, trying to sort through our experiences. Some set their face against God. Some couldn't make it on their own, and went back to something they didn't know how to live without. The rest of us have been working it out, taking it slow, making a journey.

But what I went through, traumatizing as it was, is nothing compared to what your group is. We were getting there, but decades behind. We only wanted the town, we didn't have it.

Our groups weren't the same, but there are similarities.

Anonymous said...

anon 8:29 PM-
To be honest, it pains me that I said that to IITMOC also. I actually had tears in my eyes when I wrote it. If I could take it back I would. But I was sad in a much different way than you think. I felt sad for him AND his wife, because of his apostacy, not because of the possibilty of losing his family.

I AM sad to see families broken apart. I AM devastated that my family is not with me. But I am not saddened because I am a victim of Warren Jeffs. I am saddened because of ME. I KNOW I deserved it.

I never want anyone to lose their family, but when I had to choose, I chose to seperate from them. I did not WANT my wife to have to choose between me and her religion. But I did that, and I cannot change that. I accept the correction, and I will let God decide. I love them enough to want them to STAY in the religion I know is true, with or without me.
I would rather DIE than to see MY mistakes hurt someone else ever again. THAT is much more manly if you ask me.

I am sorry, I should stop posting.

CTR

Anonymous said...

CTR

I said I was leaving this thread alone now, but I must ask forgiveness for being overly harsh and getting into a flame war. I don't know why I sometimes get this way. Now, let's see, whose fault it is... Oh yeah, somehow it's ... fault.

I am also finding out that everywhere you turn, you can find problems. I think from your viewpoint, you see things different than me.

I am actually considering leaving the blog entirely alone.

BTW--you said the "goons are probably her parents". I wouldn't say such things about in-laws.

O.K. We can't erase our past, but I feel embarrassed in re-reading what I actually said.

Anonymous said...

Back on Topic

ATAR_i said...

CTR I had no idea you went through that. How extremely painful, I feel really hideous about how glibly I have made statements that must have been so painful to you.

I agree with 10:09 above and yourself, I'm embarrassed by some of the statements I have made as well, and I ask you guys to forgive me for not treating everyone on the board with respect.

Anonymous said...

CTR
God Bless You.

CTR you are a thinking person, I do not know what sin has separated you from your wife and children. I gather from your above post you choose to not to cause conflict when ask to leave by warren.

CTR all mankind are sinners. But, God wants all mankind to love Him, and he provided Christ to be the open door.

Do you really believe in Jesus?

Jesus told his disciples when ask by them about forgiveness.
Forgive not seven times, but 70 x 77 times.
Matthew 18:21-35.
I won't post all of it except the last verse 35..."This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."

If you are a child of God, God forgives and forgets when you confess.

Then you have to forgive yourself. That's the hard part. The devil is a master of dredging it up over and over again. Tell him to get lost.

If warren was a true prophet of the true and living God he would forgive. It is demanded of him.

He would not of kicked you out of the fold of your church and from your family, if he followed Christ's teachings, completely.

Matthew 6:14-15

Jesus said "For if you forgive men when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you".

But if you do not forgive men their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins".

Matthew 18:15-17
If your brother sins against you or(Church), go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. (DID WARREN DO THIS) If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.(DID WARREN BRING WITNESSES TO YOU)

If he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.

DID WARREN GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO ASK FOR FORGIVENESS BEFORE HE KICKED YOU OUT.

CTR you are a bigger and better person than warren any day.

Don't leave.

Anonymous said...

Where is Fundy when you need him to delete a thread?

FOOLISH, and SORRY is how I feel.

IF WHAT I HAVE SAID HAS GIVEN ANYONE REASON TO HATE WARREN JEFFS MORE, SHAME ON ME!

Warren Jeffs is innocent. My wife was innocent. I am the one who was not. I can not REQUIRE anyone to forgive me, I am not God. I forgive ALL!

I will NOT share in your hatred of Warren Jeffs. I CANNOT pick up a stone. My religion requires ME to repent. Warren Jeffs has forgiven me, I know this as I know I live. HE TAUGHT ME WHAT YOU(anon 2:43) ARE TRYING TO SAY. But I (thats ME!)must satisfy the law for me to require God to forgive me. I could quote scripture to explain, but I hope you know what I am saying is true. I will not kill the messenger, because of the message.

atari-
The only thing about you or anyone else on this blog that has ever hurt me, is seeing misinformation and disinformation become reason for you to hate Warren Jeffs. I guess what I am saying is that I feel sorry for you.


Now I MUST go, and find another hobby. Maybe a conspiracy theroy blog. :-)

Goodbye, but O REMEMBER, There is another side to the stories you hear.

Have a good day.


CTR

ATAR_i said...

CTR - I never had it in my heart to hate the leaders either. Despite everything, I never did. I didn't respect them, or revere them anymore, but I didn't hate them.

I don't know warren, so I have no natural feelings of affection for him. Nothing you have done has affected my feelings about him one way or the other, lest you be worried about that.

The people who have affected my feelings about him are:

1. The boy who stated he had sex with him in the alta academy bathrooms
2. The fact that he marries underage girls
3. The fact that he married his fathers wives
4. The fact that he closed his Sunday meetings, doesn't encourage the girls to get an education, doesn't stop the families from abandoning boys.
5. The fact that he doesn't give men the opportunity to repent before he reassigns their families.

Nothing you have said has any bearing on these things.

Anonymous said...

CTR--
Atar_i started this thread, not Fundy; he can't delete it.

The list of how to get along with the aimoo blog. Add #4--don't let anyone know a Mormon has treated you right; more especially, don't let even this blog or the aimoo blog know if an FLDS member treated you right.

Anonymous said...

12:35,

I understand your first sentence.

Couldyouclarifywhatyousaidinyoursecondparagraph? Please?

Anonymous said...

Look back in the earlier post on this thread. The aimoo blog is very hostile, and atar_i was warned what not to talk about. If you are the least bit friendly towards the FLDS or Mormons on the aimoo blog, you will be thrashed.

Anonymous said...

ctr, you are right, there are two sides to every story, thank you for sharing yours. As I heard it once said, "there are two sides to every story, and then there is the truth."...... don't get me wrong, I am not saying anyone is lying, we just all see and relate things from our own point of view. Once again, thanks to all who share their points of view.

onthestreet said...

Ahh, you're quite welcome.

muggsey said...

according to all the major news sources, a smal single engine airplane veered off course and crashed into a high-rise apartment building on 72nd. (Avenue or street is not the important issue here.) This event supposedly occurred at 2:29 P.M. EDT today, October 11, 2006. Did this event really happen or was it part of a diabolical CIA plot to rid the universe of left handed Martians?

Two people lost their lives. Both were in the airplane. No one in the apartment building was killed or seriously injured. Ten NYCFD fire fighters were treated for minor injuries.

Why did the accident occur? At the present time, 5:57 CDT, an absolute reason has not been found.

My prayers are in behalf of those who lost loved ones in this fatal crash.