Tuesday, June 27, 2006

FLDS and LDS and Polygamy

What makes a religion grow and become strong?? What are the differences between WJ and Gordon B. Hinckleberry?? What are the differences between LDS and FLDS??

Well for one thing it is NOT the following of religious doctrine. Both churches make that a laughable matter. Only the most gulible can believe their doctrine. Of which there are plenty who do in both groups. Both groups are way off from where the religon came from and taught.

What makes the difference is the pratical business methods the LDS use, daily. They are very adept at making their religion a very successful business.

And the FLDS while having some good leadership in the past are now falling into the cultish waters of instability and poor business decisions. Poor business decisions and religious decisions that turn the members against each other. Any leader who tells you your going to be beamed up to heaven in a short time is on the brink of mental instability.

This is really not about religion or polygamy as many of you seem to think it is. This is really more about how a business is run than anything to do with religion or polygamy.


Anonymous said...

Who wants YOUR opinion anyway.I have'nt seen your license judge please forward it to the appropriate authorities. to judge.If you have a license to

mugwump said...

When people practice religion instead of faith they substitute an image as an object of worship in place of the Lord. Christianity as such, should reflect a change in perception of life's values. Greed is not a part of serving Christ. Neither is the lust for power.

Christ himself came as the suffering servant not the ruling king. He came to redeem the lost from their helpless estate which amounts to being out of contact with their maker.

I don't think that any religion should make its chief goal the earning of wealth in order to exwecise power through porportioning that wealth through the "right" sources for purposes of gaining recognition from man.

Christianity is the faith of peace. The history of nominal christianity is filled with individuals and examples of those who have exhibited practices that are not giving, but taking, not helping but grabing power, not forgiving but condeming. Not instructing in justice but condoning behavior that does dis-service to the name of Our Lord.

"Love one another, even as I have loved you." is an example of what Christ would have of his children.

Like the old evangelist said, "that makes easy preaching, but hard living." We desire to get even, not to forgive, to get more wealth, not sacrifice so others can have their needs met. This attitude is reflective to the fall of man in the Garden of Eden. Since that first temptation and subsequent breaking of God's commandment, Satan, the power of the Prince of the Air, has held sway on planet earth. Only those strong enough, through the grace of God to rebuke Satan gain power over his temptations. This is not an easy task. It is a battle we fight daily, but with knowledge of God's wil and purpose we don't have to fall, we can remain victorious through the shed blood of Jesus on Calvary. Our faith is not in our ability, but in God's ability to keep that which He has claimed as His Own.

Until the people of earth realize that Jesus Christ was not political, but God, in flesh and accept His sacrifice for their salvation, the world will continue in it's present disillusioned and selfish path. How can we as mere humans impress God? Think about it. There is no answer that is satisfactory. Quit trying and let the Lord of Grace act through your life. Amazing changes will become evident to all your acquaintenances.

ATAR_i said...

I think it's too murky to say that it is all business.

Sure, yes, some of it is the day to day runnings, accounting, tithes, checks and balances.

But there is another element - fear, that has crept in like weed.

Women. men, leadership, children all infected with fear. Fear makes people do crazy things. Tell on husbands who get booted, not trust parents to help them, makes leadership paranoid.

It's more than just polygamy and religion to be sure - it's definately about daily operations - but it's also about a culture of fear.

fundy said...

What's the matter are you a girly man??

Anonymous said...


The more I read your posts the more I picture you as some sort of trashy person that lives in a trailer park and beats his wife..girly man? Even if he was, what does that have to do with anything? You sound like an uneducated hypocrite. I'm going to start ignoring your posts like I do OTS.

I'm glad I was raised by my mom and "Girly-man" dad. He is not girly really at all, but he sure has some higher emotional levels than you'll ever have. And his intelligence level far surpasses yours the more I read about you.

Anonymous said...


The more I read your posts the more I picture you as some sort of trashy person that lives in a trailer park and beats his wife..girly man? Even if he was, what does that have to do with anything? You sound like an uneducated hypocrite. I'm going to start ignoring your posts like I do OTS.

I'm glad I was raised by my mom and "Girly-man" dad. He is not girly really at all, but he sure has some higher emotional levels than you'll ever have. And his intelligence level far surpasses yours the more I read about you.

Anonymous said...


The more I read your posts the more I picture you as some sort of trashy person that lives in a trailer park and beats his wife..girly man? Even if he was, what does that have to do with anything? You sound like an uneducated hypocrite. I'm going to start ignoring your posts like I do OTS.

I'm glad I was raised by my mom and "Girly-man" dad. He is not girly really at all, but he sure has some higher emotional levels than you'll ever have. And his intelligence level far surpasses yours the more I read about you.

ATAR_i said...

I'm a female - (ahem, idiot).

oops did I say that?

fttc said...

Anon 5:01

I thought you made your point very well the first time. LOL

Anonymous said...

obvoiusly it wasn't posting properly and kept making me re enter a code. So, I apologize for the repeat, but it was a computer error. I would not type the same thing in three times in a row. My memory may be good, but not that good.

onthestreet said...

Well, you're either an excellent cloner, or have a photographic memory, the latter of course being the product of FLDS membership. Everyone knows that. No question there, rite fokes.

Or do we just call you Ms. Butterfingers.

onthestreet said...

mugwump said (6/27/2006 7:31 PM):
When people practice religion instead of faith they substitute an image as an object of worship in place of the Lord.

REPLY: That was well put, Les. You’re right, for a people to practice their faith, even in the face of arrest and the laws of man, which the Lord often referred to as opposite the laws of God, and even preferring death than to compromise their eternal existence, SUCH FAITH. Now Les and I would call that practicing your faith.

Joseph Smith never claimed to establish a new religion but to initiate a new beginning, a restoration of the everlasting gospel of Jesus Christ. "The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it" (TPJS, p. 121).

Life is a trial, a probation: "All these things shall give thee experience" (D&C 122:7). Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac was a similitude of the Father's sacrifice of his Only Begotten Son. One cannot attain the heirship of the Son without being willing to sacrifice all earthly things. The overcoming of such trials is the foundation of perfected love, and until one has perfect love, one is liable to fall (TPJS, p. 9). The view that all suffering in the world is punishment for sin is "an unhallowed principle" (TPJS, p. 162). The Saints must expect to wade through much tribulation, but afflictions may be consecrated to their gain.

Anonymous said...

Street, you are just tunnel visioned and RUDE!!!
You, like all the rest of humanity are just one little speck in the whole spectrum of your existence.
Why don't you try loving your neighbor as yourself for a change?
Sure you have your opinions, but are yours anymore valid or right than John Doe's? NO! Live and let live.

TBM said...

QUOTE: "it is NOT the following of religious doctrine. Both churches make that a laughable matter. Only the most gulible can believe their doctrine."

Please, Fundy! Why do you have to be so condescending and disrespectful of those opinions that differ from yours? I assume you are not LDS, therefore you have at best an imperfect comprehension of Mormon doctrine.

And, as a little thought should tell you, dismissing the likes of the Marriot family (the very wealthy founders of the hotel chain), the governor of Massachussets, Utah's governor, state attorney, both its senators and most of its representatives, the mayor of Salt Lake City, the entire faculty of BYU, much of the faculty of the U of U, the senior businesss managers who make all the money that you mention, and some 50,000 BYU students across three campuses, are all "the most gullible" is, well, somewhat presumptious.

Actually, most Mormons find mainstream Christianity pretty difficult to take seriously. It's all a question of point of view and tradition. By all means, state your opinion. But please, there's no need to disrespect those who disagree with you.

Oh and, if you are going to criticize the LDS church, you really should get it's president's name right!

ATAR_i said...


Your post brought up a couple questions for me. Firstly let me say I completely agree with you. Because we believe differently, there is no reason to be disrespectful.

First, I was under the impression that there had been a nudge from the LDS powers that be to actually have mormons consider themselves Christians. It was also my understanding that LDS members believe not only the Bible, but the BOM D&C, and the Pearl of Great Price, wheras mainstream Christianity believes only in the Bible.

It seems as if Christianity has about 3 books less to believe are divinely inspired, and LDS claims to agree with the ONLY book that mainstream Christianity believes - so why do they have a hard time taking it seriously?

Your comment:

"Actually, most Mormons find mainstream Christianity pretty difficult to take seriously."

Can you explain what you mean by that? And also, why would your leadership want to subtly shift over time the thinking of it's congregation to 'call themselves Christians' if indeed they do not take Christianity seriously.

I don't hear any Christian groups calling themselves Mormons - it actually seems like a technique to lure unsuspecting Christians to convert - and has meaning only to those who can be duped.

Perhaps you can enlighten me.

Let me liken it to the Mormons constant statement that the FLDS aren't really Mormons.

I have to say it's not playing nice to do the same thing to Christianity, that you don't want someone to do to you. Can someone take this request to Mr. Hinkly and stop the move towards LDS faithful now declaring themselves Christians as well.

TBM said...

Hi Atar_i. Thank you for the courtesy of your response and questions.

Firstly, I want to emphasize that I speak as a private individual Mormon. I am not a spokesman for the LDS church, and my opinions are not necessarily those of the LDS church.

It all depends on how you define Christianity. A lot of Mormons call themselves Christians because Jesus Christ plays the same role in Mormonism as He does in mainstream Christianity -- He is the Savior and Redeemer of the LDS Church, same as for the Baptists or Episcopalians or Catholics or anybody else.

Personally, I don't agree (although millions of Mormons from Zimbabwe to Japan would have a real problem with that). If a Christian is just somebody who believes that Jesus is the Savior, then that makes Messianic Jews Christian -- and they would be the first to disagree!

I think Christianity is a doctrine. The differences between all the different Christian churches are based on technicalities, not fundamentals. For example, a Baptist and a Catholic might argue about the appropriate age to baptize a child. But they both agree that baptism is necessary.

Mormonism disagrees with Christianity on the fundamentals.

In her basically anti-Mormon biography of Mormonism's founder, "No Man Knows My History", Fawn Brodie argued (I think convincingly) that Mormonism is to Christianity what Christianity is to Judaism. It's an evolution, a step forward in the theology.

I think the FLDS are Mormons, in that they accept the BoM and D&C as scripture, which is the fundamental difference between Mormons and Christians. But they are not the same church as the LDS, and their followers are not members of the LDS church. The two churches are as different as the Methodists and the Baptists. Again, a lot of LDS would disagree with me, on the grounds that only the LDS church is the true church, and any other Mormon church is an apostate organisation like any other. ( I agree, but that doesn't mean I don't consider them Mormon!)

When I said that a lot of Mormons have difficulty taking mainstream Christianity seriously, I would hope that in most cases, that doesn't mean we belittle or denigrate mainstream Christianity. I don't think I've ever heard anybody do that, though I'm sure that some do -- we're human, after all. But it is well understood throughout the LDS church that such behavior is inappropriate.

But Mormonism teaches that we have always existed, and will never cease to exist; that we fulfilled a role before this current life, and will continue to do so after death.

By contrast, mainstream Christianity (so far as I understand) teaches that God decided for no very good reason to create an Earth for a blink in the eons of time, during which we have a life (again for no very good reason) lasting a mere blip. And if we behave ourselves during that blip, we get to sit around in paradise doing nothing for all eternity. And I think "Why? What's the point?"

This is why I say Mormons have a hard time taking mainstream Christianity seriously. It all seems so pointless! Whereas Mormonism provides a vast and (I think) enormously inspiring purpose of life!

That much said, and although generally Mormons consider mainstream Christian beliefs to be in error, that doesn't mean Christians don't have a right to follow them without interference. The position of the Mormons is that as and when the Lord wishes them to receive the truth, He'll send the Mormons in their direction!

ATAR_i said...

TBM, That was an thoughtful, complete answer to my questions - and I completely appreciate it.

Although I claim no special knowledge about God's rationale for creating the earth, and our lives in particular - I do believe he has one.

It's good to have you aboard on the blog! I look forward to some great exchanges!

onthestreet said...

That is, as long as they're not sexual exchanges, right Tar?

"Be ye clean that bear the vessels of the Lord".

onthestreet said...


You see, the title of this thread is …”Polygamy”. Yet, men as a rule can’t even handle ONE. Most of you men think you’re quite the incredible hulk, until you look at that pathetic little knob behind your zippers. That is, if you can find it. Compared to the other two twigs, it is just incredibly tiny, and about as ugly as a sea-slug. So get over it.

That is one little log you should never have to worry about stumbling over, except morally. Then, it is an incredible stumbling block affecting everything you do. Why do families and businesses and sports-teams generally lose? There are “internal affairs”, which blows their energy, creativity, and team-work down the toilet, where browned little logs belong. Can you imagine a man stumbling over his own wanger!!! You do that every day.

This is well known, because you laugh about spiritual unions and immaculate conception as if Jesus Christ was a joke. He is the very one who spoke favorably about planting seeds in fertile ground, and bringing forth the fruit thereof, “some an hundred-fold, some sixty, and some thirty” (Mt. 13:23). See! Jesus is a polygamist. He’s the one who directed Mary and Martha at home. Only a husband directs the domestic affairs of the home, and He was the very bridegroom at the marriage in Cana. It says so emphatically in John 2:9:

9. When the ruler of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and didn't know where it came from (but the servants who had drawn the water knew), the ruler of the feast called THE BRIDEGROOM,

10. and said to him, "Everyone serves the good wine first, and when the guests have drunk freely, then that which is worse. You have kept the good wine until now!"

All of you are also polygamists (one Father of us all, and many mothers). It’s just incredibly hard for you to kick against the pricks, yourselves (Acts 9:5, 26:14). So you stumble over your wangy and kick it daily. No wonder you have to go to the dogs, to lick your wounds. Let it heal. Take a sabbatical, study self-hypnosis, reprogram yourselves, and let that replace your viagra. Then your outlook and potential will expland and flourish.

TBM said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
TBM said...

I'm not even going to deign a comment like that with a response.

TBM said...

Thanks Atar_i. I'm looking forward to the dialog also :-)

ATAR_i said...

WOW, interesting how you sexualized Jesus relationship with Mary AND Martha. Even the heretics only give him one wife!

The the slug comment - you're in especially rare form tonight. Forming sentences AND relishing your ability to be utterly disgusting.

Yikes - I hope you enjoy hot places

Anonymous said...

I think I knew Fundy in grade school. He was the kid who could take ANYBODY's name and add or take away a few letters and make it into some sort of an insult. He thought that made him the smartest kid in the class.

It didn't then, either.

Anonymous said...

Those polygamists keep trying to tell us that polygamy is NOT all about sex. But OTS's phallo-centric rant kind of blows that absurd claim.

Anonymous said...

OTS's descriptors for the male organ:

"pathetic little knob"
"incredibly tiny"
"pathetic as a sea-slug"
"little log"

These are not words normally used by sane men in describing their anatomic features.

Anonymous said...

There may be a good reason why he's out "on the street".

Don't step in him.

Anonymous said...

It may not be ALL about a polygamous, racist community with a leader who is on the FBI's most wanted list, but one must wonder if you cannot do any WORSE than that in the BUSINESS WORLD!!! The two chruches are completley different worlds...

mugwump said...


I am in agreement with your accessment that a Jew who has adopted Christianity would never consider himself as anything but Jewish. I have known several Jews who have made the transition and they refer to themselves as "Completed" Jews, having come to a positive conclusion regarding the acceptance of Jesus Christ as "Messiah." The "Competed" Jews that I have known are equipped with conviction that far surpasses that of most nominal Christians. I have had the opportunity to listen to them on occasion and have conversations with others through the years. Their understanding and knowledge of the Holy Scriptures and the understanding that they possess regarding the fulfillment of prophesy is truly amazing.

Regarding the 'time' alloted by God for the age of the populated world my take is this: God created man, in his own image, for the purpose of fellowship. The angels in heaven are never reported to have the ability to do anything, but God's bidding. Man, on the other hand, was given the ability to pick and choose, to determine which course of action to follow. This single difference shows that God, although knowing all things, created man for the purpose of adoration, worship and fellowship. Remember, God gave Adam the responsibility of naming the creatures in the Garden. God did not name the animals, Adam did. Why was this done? God's test of man to see man's imagination at work. Man's ability to think is a great pleasure to God.

Satan, a disenfranchized, fallen angel, who's sin was that he wanted to be like God, has since the beginning tempted man to go against God's plan. Man has allowed Satan to direct his path. This is not God's plan for man but, to test man he has allowed man to continue in his sinful estate.

Knowing that man would sin, from the beginning God intended to redeem man in order to restore the original fellowship God enjoyed with Adam. Without the sheding of blood there is no remission of sin. God in his infinate wisdom understands that no sacrifice offered by man would be sufficient for forgivness of sin. Therefore, God, in the person of Jesus, came to earth, demonstrated perfect fellowship and harmony with God while on earth, and went to the Cross to sacrifice himself in perfect attonement for the sins of man. God's desire was that man use his great gift, free will, to come to an understanding of his (man's) sinful nature and accept the gift of grace (sacrifice upon the cross) through man's faith as forgivness of man's sin. Man then was to demonstrate his repentance and changed direction in life through works that would give praise to His God, who saved his eternal soul from hell.

The Word of God only gives a brief accounting of the future but, there is one thing that is made perfectly clear. Satan nor his hosts of powers of darkness will have any power in the hereafter. Whatever God has in mind for his redeemed is to great for me to imagine. I don't need to know, I am God's child and he will care for me. I don't think for a minute that I will be sitting on a cloud struming a harp, I believe that I will be occcupied doing whatever God had originally planned and prepared me to do. I'll be available to do his will, with no timeclock or any other worldly care to distract me from being all that God desires. Even so, Come Lord Jesus!

Anonymous said...


Your extraordinately imaginative diatribe offers dramatic proof of what a person is capable of, when he chooses to remain separate from communication with the Prophet of God.

You don't need to guess. Just follow the Prophet!

(hint.....he is in Salt Lake City.)

Anonymous said...


Do we HAVE to keep being subjected to Street's disgusting and degraded tirades? Is there any way that you can just block him so he can't post? He is in no way represtenting anyone's but his own opinion, and we have all heard enough of his gutter mind!!

Anonymous said...

He's in SLC? Send the FBI if you know where he is

ATAR_i said...

5:52 - If you take the time to read mugwumps posts they are always very well thought out, coherant, and doctinally aligned with what Christians consider the infallible word of God - the Holy Bible.

Theology is really rather interesting, and you get a nicely explained theological perspective from mugwump. Someone like myself does not believe that there is a prophet in SLC (I heard him once - it was creepy), and thus, traveling there would probably be a headache (mostly because there is no coffee OY!).

I am linking to The Canons of Synod of Dort, if you find all of these to be true - that is Calvanism.

Sometimes a short little quip is really not enough. I'm not always in the mood to read long posts (and yet I can always write them - interesting) however, that doesn't really make them rise to the level of a diatribe (that seems like a rather negative slant to his post).

ATAR_i said...

Street and fundy both silent - everyone is going to have to go the extra mile and start posting - otherwise the room will be silent.

Oftentimes we wait for them to bait us and then we come out. I hate to see it quiet when they leave....because then it makes we want them back (oh goodness did I just say that).

Anonymous said...


That is some strange kind of scripture you link to.

Has someone been adding to the Bible again?

TBM said...

Thanks for your thoughts on Chritian doctrine, Mugwump. And I don't consider them a diatribe at all. In fact, I have no idea where anonymous is coming from on that one.

I have to say, with respect, that you seem better informed on Christian doctrine than most Christians are, in my experience :-)

But I still find it difficult to believe that God created man simply so that man could worship and adore Him. With no intention whatever of being disrespectful or offensive, that seems, well, kind of arrogant and pompous, actually.

mugwump said...

Anon. 7/13 5:25

Thank you for your kind observation. I have no desire to be connected an any way to any prophet of LDS, FLDS, PDQ or XYZ.

My Lord is Jesus Christ.

mugwump said...


I don't think that I implied in the lengthy post that man's only duty was to worship and adore God. We should be about our daily lives with the principles HE taught us, love one another, forgive one another, keep the commandmants but, remember the first four deal with our relationship to the Worship of Allmighty God. The last six are rules for us, as humans, to live in harmony with each other. I hope this clarifies my position.

If I were shomehow reincarated on another earth how, If there I am no better person than I am here ever hope to achieve godhood? Aren't the promotions you recognize determined by the human priesthood? How do you know that they haven't been "bought off?" I'll bet that the operate upn the principle of man's 'golden rule', "He with the gold, makes the rule."

TBM said...

If I were shomehow reincarated on another earth how, If there I am no better person than I am here ever hope to achieve godhood?

It's a good question. Let me first answer a technicality: Mormonism teaches that we will be resurrected (not reincarnated) on this earth, not another world.

Mormonism teaches that the purpose of our life on Earth is to improve ourselves, and to become better people -- not to remain the same person we have always been. That is, mortal life is a probationary period.

If by the end of our lives, we have overcome some of our weaknesses and shown we are willing to work toward perfection, we will have the opportunity following the Second Coming to work much more efficiently at becoming perfect. Once we have attained complete perfection, as God Himself is perfect, then we too shall become gods. But none of us will achieve that in this mortal life.

I'm not at all sure what you mean by "promotions". Within the priesthood, there are different offices (as in any church), to which anybody may be called according to their age and ability. Pretty much any active Mormon adult man becomes an Elder. I'm not sure of what gets an Elder called as a High Priest.

If you're refering to those who are called to lead the church -- seventies, apostles and prophets -- there is no suggestion that these people are closer to godhood than anybody else. That calling is God's to give, and His alone.

And certainly, the LDS church's leadership is by no means universally rich. Thomas S. Monson, currently the church's 2nd most senior leader, is well known in Utah as independently wealthy (I met him personally some years ago, and I liked him a lot. He's a very pleasant, funny and likeable man). But plenty of other LDS church leaders come from quite modest backgrounds.

mugwump said...


Christians believe in resurection, but not in a resurection to continue life on planet earth. Our resurection is in fulfillment of our Lord's promise to his diciples regarding eternal life and His going away to prepare a place for us, that where He is there we will be also.

When we have been given salvation, by a gracious God through our faith and His Grace, there is no further need to be resurected.

Symbolic of this event is the practice of baptism. We are symbolicly buried with Christ, as he was buried in Joseph's tomb. Why were we buried? Because we, by faith in Him have become dead in relationship to our former sin. Symbolically, when we arise from baptism, we arise from death to walk in eternal life. This symbolic death, burial and resurection is a lesson for us to experience that which is to come. We are now charged to "walk in newness of life." What is the meaning of this? Our "works" should give honor to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

On the Great Day of The Lord, Jesus will call His own to Himself. His own will know his voice as sheep know their shepherd's voice. Those of us who have physically died will arise from the grave into the arms of our Savior. Those of us who are alive will imediately join those who preceeded us in death to meet Christ in the air, and thus we will ever be with the Lord. To do what? I don't know. I would not presume to assume.

Read Chapters 38 - 42 in the book of Job. God addresses Job, Job replies, Job humbles himself, God rebukes Jobs 'friends' for their critical judgement of Job's righteousness, commands them to give sacrifice and ask Job's forgivness. God then blesses Job by giving him another family and twice the great wealth he had prior to his calamity.

God's knowledge, abilities etc. far excell our greatest imaginations. I will not attempt to second guess his intent for my heavenly future. Whatever my reward, it will be just. I will know His Justice and in it be greatful. Why? How could any little contribution on my part equal His Contribution toward my eternal salvation through God's Eternal Love for me as expressed by the giving of Himself, in the person of Jesus Christ, on Calvary's Cross for my sin.

ATAR_i said...

Anon 10:02

That wasn't an addition to scripture it was a clarification of theology.

John Calvin vs. Jacobus Arminius

At the heart of the controversy between Calvinism and Arminianism is the emphasis on the sovereignty of God by the Calvinists and on the free will of man, or human responsibility, by the Arminians.

Arminian theology teaches that man has free will and that God will never interrupt or take that free will away, that God has obligated Himself to respect the free moral agency and capacity of free choice with which He created us.

Calvinism, on the other hand, emphasizes that God is in total control of everything, and that nothing can happen that He does not plan and direct, including man's salvation. Both doctrinal positions are logical, both have Scriptures to back up each of their five points, and both are, in my opinion, partially right and partially wrong.

mugwump said...


I am in agreement with your previous statement. God knows, but he doesn't "force" his divine will upon us.

We have "free will" to accept or reject that God has made provision for our sin.

Once we have accepted forgivness and are indeed are one of the redeemed, we have no free will to return to our previous un-saved estate. God is not an 'Indian giver' He keeps His promises. As redeemed, we are numbered as one of the saints.

If we could be saved, lost, saved, lost then God wouldn't be God. We, in our own selfish heart would be calling the status of our salvation on a day by day basis rather than allowing God to be God. Godf is a better judge of me than I am. He sees the inner person and cannot make an error in judgement.

He knows if a profession of faith is genuine, and if it is indeed genuine, that to which we have committed unto Him is His, forever.

ATAR_i said...

So, are you more calvanist or armenian - or a mixture?

mugwump said...


I'm probably more of a Calvanist, but have many Methodist relatives and Luthern friends who are born again believers and I don't doubt their salvation.

I would not profess to being hyper-calvanistic. I certainly do not believe that Me, my wife, our children and no more are bound for the promised land, it's my way or the highway or any similar foolishness. I do however stand firm on the belief that salvation comes to us by our faith in the acceptance of God's Grace, as demonstrated by Christ living in us. It is not my position to sit in judgement of others. I will take issue however, if I don't agree. If I disagree I will make an effort to explain my reasons for doing so

Anonymous said...

You nominal "christians" should get your act together.

If you're both gonna thump on the same Bible, and proclaim it to be complete and infallible, shouldn't you both be at least playing the same tune?

You guys REALLY need a Prophet.

I am happy to share mine!

Just give me your address, and a couple of very nice, well-dressed boys (or girls, or an older couple) will come to your door, with a very important message.

Anonymous said...

ATAR_i said (7/14/2006 7:54 AM):
Street and fundy both silent - everyone is going to have to go the extra mile and start posting - otherwise the room will be silent.

Oftentimes we wait for them to bait us and then we come out. I hate to see it quiet when they leave....because then it makes we want them back (oh goodness did I just say that).

STREET's Reply: Admin has been moderating and deleting all my posts, so I have pretty much left the forum.

God wannabe said...

Interesting how limiting the non-FLDS Christian religions are.

We are forordained to have free will. God knows what will happen with each of us and has control over all things, we don't have either, thus for us to join in the inheritance of His Son we must use our free will to do His will. Then we become like Him.

Satan's sin was not that he desired to be a God. But that he wanted to remove free will from the equation and save all by force. He wanted to be the Savior. When he couldn't he rebelled and was cast out of heaven.

From the Pearl of Great Price:

"And I, the Lord God, spake unto Moses, saying: That Satan... is the same which was from the beginning, and he came before me saying- Behold here am I, send me, I will be thy son,and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor. But behold, my Beloved Son which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning said unto me- Father, thy will be done and the glory be thine forever. Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down. And became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to decieve and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice."

The angels in heaven cannot sin(they have no desire to) because they are not subject to the fall of Adam, by which we became subject to the TEMPTATION to sin. If we overcome all temptation through faith in the sacrifice of our Lord Jesus, unto overcoming though the gift of repentance, then (and only then) will we be worthy of the highest heaven. To be perfect is to be ever repenting (improving) Godhood is not atttainable here, but is attainable. It is by our condition, not our position.

Isn't that wonderful? Why would you not want to believe that?

Anonymous said...

god wannabe, you ask why? Why would I not want to believe that???


"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." ~Stephen Roberts

ATAR_i said...

3:42 - It's interesting that you feel we all need to be in absolute agreement about the theological meanings of each passage of scripture.

The meaning of certain passages of scripture have been the topic of debate for centuries. Since none of us can know the mind of God (no man - which IMO includes your prophet), we read the scriptures with our small limited understanding.

I think perhaps you're upset because your understanding of theology is hampered by abdication of study in favor of someone elses spoon fed explanations.

If you want to open fire on a thinking mind, be my guest - based on your post, I assume you'll be coming unarmed.

Anonymous said...

Wow, Atari looks more like you are upset. I am sorry.

It is interesting to say that the whole gospel is in the Bible, and then have such vastly different ideas of God and heaven.

Prophets are for the purpose of helping us understand.

muggsey said...

Yeah, just like they want you to understand. You have no mind of your own. Puppet on a string, cant move without the profit pulling the strings.

ATAR_i said...

Heavens no, not upset.

But - how can you expect anyone to agree about heaven. When I was a child I thought of the most wonderous place I could imagine - and heaven was clouds of ice cream with gum drops and chocolate bars everywhere - I could imagine nothing better.

How can one understand heaven - we all have our own idea about how it is, but can we truly understand - we can only imagine it as good as we can - but is that really what it's like?

As far as the gospel, Mugs and I have no dispute over that at all - we feel quite the same. It's really the issue of predestination that causes people to dissent. Biblical theologians have debated the meaning of the original texts on this issue and still have no consensus.

I honestly loved learning about this kind of stuff - it's interesting.

god wannabe said...

Jesus Christ was quite a brianwasher wasnt He? I am happy as a lark to be on His string.

Now why would you not believe that we have the possibility to become gods and goddesses over worlds of our own? That we are the actual children of a heavenly father and mothers? It is logical, can be supported by the Bible, and gives the greatest possible explaination of eternal life.
Why would you not want to believe that?

Is it because of the doctrine or because of the source?

TBM said...

Muggsey: Yeah, just like they want you to understand. You have no mind of your own

I'm not trying to start a fight, muggsey, but I think that is more than just a tad unfair. Mormons have plenty of mind of their own. And they are minded to accept that the prophet is guided by God, and that they should follow him.

Just because people disagree with you doesn't mean they have no mind of their own!

muggsey said...


Not only interesting, but assuring also. I take a bit of a different twist on predestination. Those whom God FOREKNEW He did predestinate. Herein lies one main variance with the common view of predestination. Before "Let There Be Light" God foreknew Abel, Seth, Noah, Abraham, Moses, David, Elijah, Elisha, Isaiah, Ezekiel, Daniel and other O.T. prophets. He had a purpose for each of them. He foreknew Joseph, Mary, Zacariah & Elizabeth, the diciples and even Judas for his particular purpose. He foreknew Saul (Paul), Silas, Barnabas, Phillip, Stephen, and hosts of those other redeemed in of the New Testament.

Now here is the difference: Those previously mentioned He knew beforehand, before the formation of the world. They were preordained for a particular purpose. Freewill does not prohibit ANYONE from becoming a child of the Grace of God. For by Grace are you saved through Faith, it is a GIFT of GOD, not of works less any man should boast. It should be recognized that one may become saved by their free will of accdptance of the shed blood of Christ in redemption but, cannot be lost again by the same. If you ever become a child of the King, you can never be lost again. Were becoming 'lost' again an option, Christ would have to die again for each sin. If his redemption is insufficient then He is not Lord. Saved, lost, saved, lost is not an option. You are one, or the other.

Purpose of good works: To allow the Born Again Christian to show Christ's love through his (man's) life and lifestyle.

ATAR_i said...

god wannable - in your post you ask:

Who wouldn't want to believe that?

Well, I'm not a huge believer in levels of heaven. Actually - not, a believer in that at all.

And, I wouldn't want to believe that. Every time I fail here on earth I would feel so down on myself. I think I would lose my hope, feeling destined for a lower level of heaven.

I think that is MAN, that is how MAN views things. Nothing in that purported scripture seems like Gods nature. It seems like High School, or Class Reunions, or any manly effort where people try to outperform with anything (beautiful wives, cars, rich husbands, big houses) - 'Mine is bigger and better than yours'.

UCK - yuck - no no no - NOT IN HEAVEN.

muggsey said...

god wannabe

The very title you have chosen as your pen name speaks volumes about your attitude toward Christianity. Wanting to be God was Satan's sin. Because of this sin he was cast into hell which is his dominion and his ultimate place of incarceration. He currently roams about the earth seeking whom he can devour. What does that mean? It simply means those whom he can disillusion into believing that they (mankind) will have nothing to answer at the end of time to but themselves, that he (man) is, or can become like God.

Your posts lead me to believe that you have bit the bait and taken the hook in your mouth and can't escape, nor do you want to. Satan is in full control.

TBM said...

The gods of Mormon theology exist in a hierarchy. No man live on this earth will replace Heavenly Father. Heavenly Father will always remain superior.

Satan's sin was that he attempted to replace Heavenly Father.

god wannabe said...

It is interesting that atari blasts me for denying mercy, and mugs blasts me for denying judgment.

Let me put it this way:
We were born as spirit children to a Father and Mothers in heaven. We lived lives without bodies before we came here. We saw our parents had physical bodies and we did not. We were taught that in order to have physical bodies we must be subject to the fall of Adam. (To gain bodies but be shut out of heaven and lose all memory of our former existence.)
Jesus Christ came to earth to redeem us from the fall, which gives us all the resurrection of our physical bodies. He also gave us repentance, which gives us the OPPORTUNITY for forgiveness of all our sins, if we overcome the temptattion for them. Our God is merciful, and also just. Just because you accept Jesus as your personal Savior does not make you saved. Repentance is a condition, a path of becoming more and more like Jesus Christ, doing as He would, and giving Him the credit. For He gave us the opportunity. Though we may stumble, we must stay on the path. Our works show our faith in His love.

We will most all be saved, but to which mansion in His house we are saved to depends on us.

Those not taught these things here, will have another opportunity in the next life, before the resurrection, to repent, as the thief who was on the cross next to Jesus.

In the end we will be judged by our condition, not our position.
We CAN become joint HEIR's to Jesus Christ, and that would be the third heaven Paul mentioned in the Bible. (2 Corinthians 12:2)

Satan wanted to be the Savior, and wanted to give us a resurrection without judgment. His plan was more merciful than just. So merciful that it made him angry that it wasn’t accepted. He fell from heaven. He had legions of our brothers and sisters who followed him. They cannot have bodies of their own, but are ever seeking to enter ours.

So we lived a life of meaning before we came here, and we will all live a life of greater meaning after we leave here, but this life is where we attain bodies to purify and prepare to be worthy to be saved to the highest heaven, eternal parenthood.

god wannabe said...

"O my Father thou that dwellest in a high and glorious place,
when shall I regain Thy presence and again behold Thy face.
In Thy holy habitation did my spirit once reside?
In my first primevil childhood was I nurtured by Thy side?

For a wise and glorious purpose Thou has sent me here on earth.
And withheld the key of knowledge of my former friends and birth.
Yet oft times a secret something whispers youre a stranger here,
and Ive felt that I have wandered from a more exalted sphere.

I had learned to call Thee Father through Thy Spirit from on high,
but until the key of knowledge was restored I knew not why.
In the heavens are parents single? NO! the thought makes reason stare.
Truth is reason, truth eternal, tells me Ive a MOTHER there.

When I leave this frail existence, when I lay this mortal by
Father, Mother may I meet you in your royal courts on high?
Then at length when Ive completed all You've sent me forth to do.
With your mutual approbation, may I come and dwell with you?"
-Eliza R. Snow
(plural wife of Joseph Smith)

god wannabe said...

And just because I wannabe, doesnt mean I will be. For I have a struggle with hope also, but I still I wannabe! Dont you?

god wannabe said...

We were all forordained and predestined. God could see the whole earth from beginning to end, including each of us. He knew what we would do, but (other than prophesy in some instances) we have no idea our own future. But we do know what we DESIRE. We have free will, but God already knows where we will end up. Its gotta happen in order for Him to see it. God will not force His children, and Satan cannot force us.

ATAR_i said...

How do I respond to your complete and utter remodel of scriptures - where would I even start. Theologically you not only missed the target, you killed the princess - ugh, what a nightmare.

muggsey said...

His theology ought to be a sidewalk, or a pound cake, the first consists of cement, all mixed up and permanently set. The second has to be baked to reach it's potential.

So, Grave vaults and Hell are the eventual destination.

god wannabe said...

Yet I say it is true, and if I go to hell believing and seeking ever to obey, and become like God; and His mercy is not sufficient for me, then hell is where I should be.

But even if you dont believe, I think you will have another opportunity, I forgive you and leave you in the hands of God.

muggsey said...

I have been in The LORD'S hands since I was nine years old.

I am persuaded that He is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against THAT DAY.

I suggest that you might spend about thirty years in intense study of the Bible. Remember, the text therein pre-dates that to which you follow by at least 1700 years, and parts of it up to 3300 years. Allow it to be it's own testimony and commentary. Then, if you have spent that amount of time in study and in prayer to God, who is in Heaven, the Great I AM. If you compare the truth therein to the little so-called book of Mormon you will be much better prepared to offer better judgement. I will warn you however, the truth in the Bible will cause you to shudder in fear when you consider the falseness to which you have heretofore been practicing. The Bible and it's witness to the Salvation Offered unto man by the Presentation of GOD'S ONLY BEGOTTEN SON, JESUS, THE CHRIST as sin's atonement should cause you to fall on your face and beg forgivness, not only of GOD, but of all the people whom you have led astray with your false doctrine, authored in the pit of hell.

There is no other name in heaven, or upon earth by which you must be saved. That Name is the Name above ALL Names, THE NAME OF JESUS. FOR AT HIS NAME SHALL EVERY KNEE BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT CHRIST IS LORD.

Truth in the Bible is the scale that tests Mormon, not the other way around.

onthestreet said...

Mug: When will you get it? The FLDS has been preaching and living that for 170 years, since Joseph introduced the Gospel again to mankind. The fact that you choose to hate it, and not believe Joseph when he says that Jesus Christ is the only name under heaven by whom man can be saved, doesn't make your opposition to Christ any more true.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. (Mt. 7:22)

muggsey said...

Joseph, nor Warren nor You nor any man is my Lord. I repeat, My Lord is Jesus Christ, the ONLY Begotten SON of I AM GOD.

Joseph Smith received nothing, it was made up to make him and his buddies money. From what I read here the deceit is still going on and the people with whom you associate are victims, not among the saved.



onthestreet said...

Well, when you have to SCREAM it, MUCK-SEE, it will not save you. It blinds you, and then ye see nothing but MUCK, SEE?

onthestreet said...

You deny Him daily, Muck! See? And when you have to SCREAM it, MUCK-SEE, it will not save you. It blinds you, and then ye see nothing but MUCK, SEE?

You proclaim His Holy Name often, in vail, having rejecting His laws and ordinances, and His very authority upon the earth.

Now do you see, or just Muck-See?

ATAR_i said...

I wondered how long it would take for OTS to make something more out of your nickname.

Hey, perhaps call yourself OTSS - see what he has to say then. Some of OTS' self-flaggelation might be interesting to watch.

muggsey said...

Maybe ODESSA - not the city in Texas or the Former Soviet Union, but the post war S.S. criminals who went to ground to avoid prosecution.

Most of his utterances are nothing but propaganda anyway. In his efforts to be cute he has to act as if he is insane.

Maybe it's not an act?

god wannabe said...


Of course I do not deny it. But neither do I deny that without Moses Isreal would have been freed, that without Samuel David would have become king, that without John the Baptist The Savior would have been baptized, and that without Joseph Smith, the dispensation of the Fullness of times would have come forth.

ATAR_i said...

You're getting into sticky theology without realizing it.

Did God create all of us and have full knowledge of the actions we would make even prior to our life beginning. Were those actions something we were predestined to make so that prophecy might be fulfilled, or is God just aware of the actions we will take.

Could only John the baptist have baptized Christ? - good question. In Matthew, some of the first words Jesus speaks EVER recorded, state that John should baptize him to fulfill all righteousness.

You might interpret that to mean that he is stating 'anyone can baptize me to fulfill all righteousness' but you might be wrong. There is no way to KNOW that for absolutely 100% certain sure.

So you can make statements like that, but realize you could be wrong. You might be right, but you might not be.

Since God knew all since the foundation of time, chances are he KNEW who would baptize him, and so there is NO WAY, he could mean anything other than John would baptize him - (SINCE HE KNEW John would baptize him from the beginning of time).

god wannabe said...

atari, obvious even to you prove that I was right, but to answer all of your questions, YES!

In my view there is nothing sticky about it. It is plain and simple.

My question is this. What can God NOT do?

Clearly he had a purpose in creating the earth. And clearly he could see the future, or else prophets would have never known anything. SO if He could see the future, and He is eternal, isnt it obvious He could see the future before He made the earth, and if He could see the future, isnt it obvious that He would know what we will do? I dont believe any of it is chance. He knew what we were going to do, and He stepped in when He needed to.

In saying that, you might think God was cruel. Why would any of us choose wickedness if He controls everything? Well it is pretty simple. We are His children. Do we not call Him Father? He wants us to proove ourselves to ourselves. In other words, He wants us to learn for ourselves. He gave us the power to choose right or wrong. Why? Our free will will either save us or damn us. Why? If we are not ABLE to ovecome wrong, we are not ABLE to have eternal life. This life is but a trial.

Adams fall gave us bodies, and gave us agency (free will). But it also made us subject to death, and damnation through sin.
Jesus, The only "begotten" Son, the Son of Man(Adam), was God in the flesh, He Died willingly not just to give all of Adams children the ressurection of our bodies, but also the gift of repentance. That we, by faith in the atonement (forgiveness) made for us, can overcome all sin. We are NOT saved until we see Him on judgment day, and are free of guilt.

Now what does it mean to be saved?
In the above you may say to be saved is to have eternal life. But in my religion there is more to it. All will be saved, but few will be saved to the third heaven.(That is to have children in heaven.) I believe that Hell is only Hell because of the guilt we will feel in what we have done. We will know what heaven we are worthy of. And all who are not worthy of the highest heaven, will beg to be given the second death, which is the death of the body AND the spirit. Damnation is to cease to exist. Fire and Brimstone is a mercy.

Of course you dont have to believe anything I say, but it is a awesome religion. Judeo Christian completion. My religion is my faith.

But I have questions for you if you dont believe me.

Did we exist before we were born?
When we die, will we cease to have families?
What is more important to you than your family?
Why do we call God Father?
Does Jesus Christ, and God the Father have physical bodies?