Thursday, July 06, 2006

What are warren Jeffs weaknesses and strengths

I wonder what warrens weaknesses are?

Examples: An inability to take correction, an highly overestimated opinion of ourselves, the inability to complete a task, a nagging insecurity, procrastination, inability to work hard, being judgemental, critizing, not listening, addictions to food, TV etc etc.

Don't write 'warren is crazy, he kicked me out for watching tv', say something like, 'warren is very judgemental, and hypocritcal, he kicked me out for watching TV, but he watches his all the time'.

I also wonder what some of his strengths are?

I don't want to hear 'what he did' I want to hear the strength that allowed him to do it. Don't say 'he built a barn in one weekend' say 'he's a hard worker'.

52 comments:

Anonymous said...

Warren is crazy, and he kicked me out for watching TV.

Anonymous said...

Eldorado, Texas has an annual festival each summer where people tell tall tales called the "Running of the Bull" Now Warren Jeffs when it comes to spinning the biggest line of "BULL" can't be beat. Every sermon he preaches is pure BS. But Warren Jeffs dosen't have the intestinal fortitude to show up.

Unlike YFZ which welcomes no one, Eldorado, Texas welcomes all to come to the "Running of the Bull"

Running of the Bull Festival

Anonymous said...

Anytime you delude yourself into thinking you speak for God you are destined for a big fall.

Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. How long do you think you can keep a sane mind if no one ever questions you and you believe you speak for God?

He's greatest weakness is his own delusion. And that will be what takes him down. He will be his own undoing if left to himself long enough.

Hopefully he doesn't take to many more innocent lives with him.

Anonymous said...

No has anything nice to say about a pedophile, crook & a fraud!

Anonymous said...

I don't think anyone has anything good to say . What a surprise!

fttc said...

There is good in the worst of us. I think one of warren's strong points is his ability to speak and get his audience to feel what he is speaking. His elocution is very good. He also has a sharp mind for details. He has been very thorough in his efforts at getting to the top of the hierarchy.

For Anon 5:26

Do we know warren is a pedophile? He is definately a fugitive for some reason and it does make him look very guilty of the charges when he does not answer them, but really we do not know. I would like to see him brought in and placed on trial so the truth can be established.

ATAR_i said...

fttc thanks.

I really was searching for examples just like that.

I'm not attempting to make him look good (surely no one can question that), however, clearly he has some strengths - and I would like to know what they are.

I would also like to know his achilles heel, the tempermental qualities that trip him up.

I think only people who know him, or have met him can answer these questions. But I think the answers will be interesting to those who do not.

Anonymous said...

Does Warren have a college degree or did he go to college period? I think Uncle Rulon did & I know Uncle Roy did. The only thing he may have in his favor is his education & obviously an ability to brainwash thousands.

mugwump said...

A point for consideration:

Both Adolph Hiter and Benito Mussolini were gifted orators. Their message was in the same vein as is Warren Jeffs, which was and is self-servng. None of the three really cared nor care about those people mesmerized by their individual gift of gab so long as the devotees were and are at their beck and call. All seem to possess the extreme callousness and personal pride associated with dictatorial power. None of the three came from a particularly affluent nor noteworthy familial background.

ATAR_i said...

A note of clarification. I am not trying to demonize, nor am I trying to praise warren, I am simply trying to look at his strengths and weaknesses in an objective manner by those who knew him.

I'm not actually looking to find the qualities that hitler or any other individual has, just warren.

If he does possess a college education I would be curious if he obtained a degree, and where he studied.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous said(7/13/2006 4:45 AM):
Does Warren have a college degree or did he go to college period? I think Uncle Rulon did & I know Uncle Roy did. The only thing he may have in his favor is his education & obviously an ability to brainwash thousands.

Hey Non, NONE of the Prophet were so handicapped with a college degree. That would have disqualified them. They are beyond the 33rd degree. LSJ graduated 8th grade, RTJ did high school and CPA school, WSJ did about the same. Prophets' missions do not pertain to this world, but only in working with the powers that be (God's ministers) to putting the lands and nations of the earth asunder. LSJ's name wasn't "Sunderland" for nothing.


mugwump said...
A point for consideration:
Both Adolph Hiter and Benito Mussolini were gifted orators. Their message was in the same vein as is Warren Jeffs, which was and is self-servng.

STREET's Reply: Hey Les, Jesus Christ was the most gifted orator. So is He evil. Oratory is not the deciding factor, but the quality of truth in their oratory, and anyone would blame Christ Himself as being "self-serving". "What the Father hath, He has given to the Son, and I shall return in my power..." etc, donchusee?

Get with it, bud.

ATAR_i said...

8:09 What did you mean by the Sunderland comment, can you explain?

Also, warren completed HS and CPA school, or was it a different sort of trade school? I would really love to know the answer.

Did anyone go to school with warren, or know someone who did?

Anonymous said...

Maybe someone has the wherewithal to check with BYU. It's said Warren graduated from there with an accounting degree - following his father's footsteps.

Rulon never went to a brick and mortar institution. He received his CPA certification through courses via mail. He kept his certification current for many, many years.

As for LSJ - Sunderland is his middle name (Leroy Sunderland Johnson). ots is just being a little kid, playing with words again trying to extract something meaningful only to himself:

"...putting the lands and nations of the earth asunder. LSJ's name wasn't "Sunderland" for nothing. "

See? Just more ots BS.

Anonymous said...

Warren only graduated from high school. He became a teacher at Alta Academy in 1973, the year after he graduated.

TBM said...

QUOTE: BYU. It's said Warren graduated from there with an accounting degree - following his father's footsteps

I can assure you Warren did not go to BYU, nor Rulon. And given what the FLDS think of the LDS, I really doubt they'd ever even considered applying. Nor can I imagine BYU accepting an application from known leaders of a polygamist organisation that is in total opposition to the LDS church.

The FLDS and the LDS are completely different churches, and have nothing whatever to do with each other.

TBM said...

I've also heard the FLDS are against putting their kids through college. They've done it a number of times, sending them to Southern Utah University in Cedar City. But they always end up quitting the church and never returning to Hilldale/Colorado City.

mugwump said...

Street:

Your understanding of the purpose and personality of Jesus Christ is so foreign and convoluted it is not worth my time to get into a discussion. Believe as you want. I don't care any more. You can go to the lake of fire and brimstone. It is your choice to have done so.

Pursuant to the two comments concerning wj having gone to the 33rd degree, this very bit of information supports the fact that Mormon assention is based upon Masonic Tradition. The 32nd. degree is the highest earned step in Scotish Rite Masonry. One only achieves 33rd degree as the result of having lived such an exlimpary lifestyle and having been so unselfish with time, talent and wealth as to live their lives as an example to others. The 33rd. is an honorary degree, rarely confered, never earned.

TBM said...

Have any of yu read "Under the Banner of Heaven", by Jon Krakauer? I have a copy on my bookshelf.

I found it a fascinating book. It's an investigation into polygamist Mormons, their history, their mindset, their way of life, and their political and legal situation. It deals mostly with the Lafferty Brothers, Ron & Dan, who in the 1980's were convinced they had been commanded by God to murder their sister-in-law and her infant daughter. But it also deals a lot with the FLDS.

It was written shortly after Rulon had died, and Warren had assumed the presidency. It noted how Warren was unloved within the FLDS community, was never refered to as "Uncle Warren" the way his father was "Uncle Rulon", and predicted that Warren's intolerance and sense of self-righteousness would be the undoing of the FLDS.

Well, it's looking like Jon Krakauer was right.

TBM said...

Mugwump, I really cannot imagine where you've got this idea of freemasonry from. I know a lot of people have suggested our temple ceremonies are closely related to Masonic ceremonies (I can't comment on that -- I'm not a Mason, and I'm not going to reveal details of the Mormon temple ceremony). But I can promise you that this concept of "degrees" is totally alien to any concept of Mormonism.

Anonymous said...

tbm--07/14/06--12:02 PM
I don't know why you think we are against having our children obtaining a good education.
We are just people who are individually free to make that personal choice; the option is there for us the same as it is for you or anyone else.
Some of my children have gone on, after graduating from high school, to further their education in order to attain the goal they desired and I am so proud of them for making the decisions they have.

And what's more they are all still members of the FLDS religion.

fttc said...

tbm

The current attitude of the FLDS toward the LDS church is of modern making. (Last 25 years or so) There were members before this time that tried to condemn the LDS church and the leadership at the time reprimanded them severely. It was the teachings at the time that the LDS was Christ's true church and while they were on a detour they would be set straight one day. The detour part is quite obvious to anyone interested enough to review the teachings of JS, BY, JT and others of the early leaders of the church. The doctrine that the President/Prophet can do no wrong and is always led by revelation had to be crammed down the members to facilitate this detour.

As far as Rulon Jeffs and his being a CPA; he was a CPA while he was still in good standing in the LDS church, long before he was associated with the Priesthood group. He grew up in southern Idaho so if he attended college it was likely in that area. I don't remember him ever talking about being educated at BYU. I doubt he attended there, but he was a very faithful member of the LDS church until they cast him out. I know warren was doing a lot of research at the BYU in the late '80s and early '90s. Not as student in attendance but a guest at the libraries there. Perhaps this is where the notion comes from that he attended classes there.

As Anon 8:01 pointed out, there are a number of college graduates still in the FLDS. They have at least two doctors, a dentist, several engineers and many nurses that are faithful members. That some and perhaps many that have attended college for a degree have left the FLDS is unfortunately true. It is also true that a large percentage of those who left were convinced in college to become atheist. That is a reflection to me on the mindset of the instructors and attendees in college and not particularly the faith they came from.

ATAR_i said...

TBM, so you are LDS and have read Under The Banner of Heaven?

What did you think when you read it? Was there any introspection, and self reflection.

Not being mormon, I read it fascinated by the story - but unchallenged personally, but in the last chapter, when they were discussing the issue of the Lafferty Brothers sanity I found that chapter challenging.

Jon seemed to really pull the whole story, into a big philosophical question on religion, the power of beliefs....

I'm curious your reaction to the book

mugwump said...

tbm

Smith's cry as he fell from the window of the Carthage jail was a Masonic utterance. Several Masons were present and attest to that fact. Smith had killed two persons with a handgun smuggled into his unocked cell.

The use of the "All Seeing Eye", "handclasps" and other adornment of Mormon Temples can be traced to Freemasonry. I too have read Krakauer's book, "Under the Banner of Heaven" plus works, both supportive and critical of the Mormon viewpoint, including Faun Brodie's "Nobody knows my Name."

I have visited the temple sites in Salt Lake City and St. George and have passed by many LDS meeting houses in the western US. On at least three occassions I have had Mormon Missionaries in my home attempting to get me to believe that the book of Mormon is another revelation of Jesus Christ. Having read and compared the two I would be an utter fool to accept that presumption as fact. The New Testament is so superior in it's understanding the nature of God, and the purpose of the church there can be no comparison. I am not totally ignorant as to the ways and means of Mormonism. I do not profess to be well informed. I probably know as little about Mormonism as does the average Mormon know of the Saving Grace of Jesus Christ.

Certain individuals in my ancestory were present during, and have bourne familial witness to the early ministry, and confusion, surrounding the beginnings of Mormonism. At least one was personally acquainted with Smith. This ancestor didn't think too highly of Smith's character. In my research I have found nothing to change my opinion from that that has been passed down through the family.

ATAR_i said...

Mugs, did I tell you I found I had mormon ancestors from the 1800's. Apparently when the polygamy revelation was revealed my ancestors (who had moved to the Nauvoo area), along with other mormons of that time, founded their own mormon church called the "Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" Now called the "Community of Christ".

I recently found this out (probably about one month ago) when doing my genealogy search. It explained a lot about that one branch of the family that had been eluding me.

That said, a different branch of my family had been heavily masonic, serving as grand masters etc. My father burned all of my grandfathers aprons, books etc over a fire (so I cannot scan them to show), but it is no secret to anyone who has any erudition in masonic rituals/symbols that mormon rituals/symbols have been patterened after them.

Most of public society is not aware of masonic rituals or mormon rituals making comparison difficult. However, diligent study and research has indicated that Joseph Smith spent some time with the Masons, and the rituals he sets forth in his writing resemble them too closely to be coincidence.

Anonymous said...

I have not studied the specific ins and outs of masonry much, but I do understand firsthand that FLDS (and of course LDS) temple rituals are indeed patterned after masonic ones. I was taught that even as a youngster.

Atar_i said:
My father burned all of my grandfathers aprons, books etc over a fire (so I cannot scan them to show), but it is no secret to anyone who has any erudition in masonic rituals/symbols that mormon rituals/symbols have been patterened after them.

This reminds me of my (former) FLDS husband's temple-endowed garments. After being excommunicated by mainstream LDS authorities (for practicing plural marriage) he was still required (by FLDS leadership) to wear the old-style garment with all its special sewn-in symbolic "marks." At some point I had to make (sew) his garments myself because LDS stores no longer sold the old style to the public. When he wore out a pair, I was required to cut those marks out (collar, two breast marks, three sets of ties, one navel mark and one knee mark), then burn them. It was not allowed to just throw them away. The rest of the garment made very nice rags, but the marks were holy - they had to be burned. Period. Did that for many years.

mugwump said...

Atar_i

Your insights are accurate and as far as I am aware, right on mark.

Freemasonry was the cement that allowed the American forefathers to administer the American Revolution and set up the current American Government. Freemasony is a brotherhood of freemen who, because of common assurances, could trust the word of his brother. Most of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were members of the Masonic order.

George Washington, a Mason himself, set the cornerstone of the U.S. Capitol Building in Washington D.C. in a Masonic cornerstone ceremony. Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe and Jackson were all Freemasons. It would be in order to say that much of the foundational work of American society was laid upon Christian principles as demonstrated by Masonic rule and guidance.

I have lost track of just where I read that Joseph Smith had united with the Masonic Order prior to his revelations. I will review my sources and repeat dates, places and witnesses A.S.A.P. I really am surprised that, [reading the records concerning the dishonesty, theft, and being charged in The Justice Court of Judge Joel K. Noble of Broome County, July 3-4, 1830 on charges of money-digging and fortune telling. After a lengthy trial Smith was released after receiving a severe lecture and a stern reprimand from the judge who found him to be "a Vagrant idler Lazy (not Drunkard) but now and then Drunk Liar {and} deceiver...{who is}a nuisance to good society." from: (Who wrote the book of Mormon? p. 382)], that Smith's continuing demonstration of dishonesty would allow him to even be considered as a candidate for the Masonic Order.

Appendix I 'Chronology of Joseph Smith' 1822 - 1830 [ibid] is cram-packed with similar unsavory instances in the Life of Joseph Smith.

Anonymous said...

Someone mentioned Leroy Sunderland's name and OTS mentioned the earth being divided asunder. Is Street aware that there was a LaRoy Sunderland who was a very vocal anti-mormon?

Anonymous said...

TBM said (7/14/2006 5:05 PM):
Mugwump, I really cannot imagine where you've got this idea of freemasonry from. I know a lot of people have suggested our temple ceremonies are closely related to Masonic ceremonies (I can't comment on that -- I'm not a Mason, and I'm not going to reveal details of the Mormon temple ceremony). But I can promise you that this concept of "degrees" is totally alien to any concept of Mormonism.


STREET’s Reply: 36 paths of wisdom (The lights, and the crucibles): 3 degrees in each of the 3 degrees of glory equal 9. That is nine in each of the four worlds: Assiyah, Yetzirah, Beriah, Azilut. Thus 36 degrees.

Mat 5:13 said...

"Appendix I 'Chronology of Joseph Smith' 1822 - 1830 [ibid] is cram-packed with similar unsavory instances in the Life of Joseph Smith. "

Of course they only tell the part of the story that demonizes Joseph

Just ask the non-Mormon lawyer who defended Joseph at that trial.

"Nothing was proven against him whatever. Having got through with the examination of their witnesses about 2 o'clock in the morning. There was not one particle of evidence against the prisoner. Then the court proceeded to reprimand him severely; not because anything derogatory to his character in any shape had been proven against him by the host of witnesses that had testified during the trial, but merely to appease the fiends in human shape who were engaged in the unhallowed persecution of an innocent man, sheerly on account of his religious opinions."
DHC VOl 1 pp96

Mat 5:14 said...

Also you will find that the painting of George Washington laying the cornerstone of the capital was not actual history. But he was a Mason.

Joseph Smith was 24 in July 1830

muggsey said...

aka Mugwump

You're offended by quotes from "Who Really Wrote the Book of Mormon", stand by, you ain't seen nothin' yet!

If you reply, if you want to be credible, I suggest that you give name, date and place of the one who refutes the hard evidence, taken from public record, often witnessed and sealed with Notary Seal. Anything else you offer will be considered as heresay.

TBM said...

Oh boy! I disappear for a few days, and so much happens, I hardly know where to start.

But after some deliberation, I think I'll start with Street: 36 paths of wisdom (The lights, and the crucibles): 3 degrees in each of the 3 degrees of glory equal 9. That is nine in each of the four worlds: Assiyah, Yetzirah, Beriah, Azilut. Thus 36 degrees

Street, what in the world are you talking about? You might as well be writing Italian for all the sense any of that makes to me!

Mugwump: Smith's cry as he fell from the window of the Carthage jail was a Masonic utterance. Several Masons were present and attest to that fact.

There are two versions of Joseph Smith's last words. One is,"Oh Lord my God", which really doesn't strike me as an especially Masonic thing to say.

The other is, "Is there no help for a widow's son". This is based upon the testimony of a single man, a self-confessed member of the lynch mob that murdered him.

Unreliable testimony? Well, the same man admitted he was a militiaman with the Carthage Grays, and that he was part of the lynch mob, and that he fired his gun, but that he took no part of the actual murder. So I guess maybe he was just ... ummm ... shooting rabbits, or something.

But think about the situation. There's a huge gun battle going on. More than a hundred people, shouting and running around, are firing muskets.

Have you ever seen one musket fired? They're loud. Very loud. Much louder than a modern gun. You can hear a musket report a mile away. Stand next to it, and you will have temporary hearing loss. At Carthage jail, there were over a hundred muskets going off simultaneously.

They also produce a lot of smoke. Vast clouds. So everyone would have been blind and choking too. Ever had smoke in your eyes? Hurts, huh?

Deaf, blind, with streaming eyes and burning throats, how well do you think anyone would have heard, or even cared, what Joseph Smith's last words were?

Look at it from Joseph Smith's position. You just saw your brother and one of your closest colleagues blown away. You have musket balls flying past you. You are terrified, certain that you are about to die. And yes, you too are deaf, blind and choking. You've just been shot three times, and you are in the process of falling out of a second-floor window.

And yet, you still take time out to say a lengthy, convoluted sentence like, "Is there no help for a widow's son?"

I think "Oh Lord my God" is the more likely expression -- assuming anybody actually heard what he said, which I personally doubt.

I don't think anybody is denying that Joseph Smith was a freemason, briefly. If you've read "No Man Knows My History", you should be aware that he was also rejected, and his membership cancelled by the Masons. All that is being denied is your assertion that "Mormon assention is based upon Masonic Tradition"

And yes, Joseph Smith was charged with money digging. There seems to be doubt as to whether or not he was actually convicted. But this was before Joseph Smith received the golden plates, and as he freely admitted in his testimony that he fell into wrong paths and bad company. As do many teenagers and young adults, most of whom reform as they mature, and become worthy and productive citizens.

As for the relative merits of the Book of Mormon and the New Testament, the Book of Mormon's depth of insight is one of the foundations of my testimony. You, no doubt, will disagree strongly with me. But, with respect, I suspect I have studied the Book of Mormon in much greater detail than you have.

Finally, family anecdotes about Joseph Smith mean nothing at all. You've heard bad. I've heard good. And they're probably ALL true!

TBM said...

Atar_i: "TBM, so you are LDS and have read Under The Banner of Heaven?"

I thought it was a fantastic book. And no, it didn't cause me any introspection at all. Mostly because its modern bits had little to do with the LDS church, and its old history didn't tell me a whole lot I didn't already know.

I felt Jon Krakauer could have done better in setting the historical bits in perspective. He did to an extent, but I think it was fairly superficial. The origins of the Mountain Meadows Massacre, for example, can be traced right back to the Haun's Mill Massacre nearly 20 years earlier -- which I don't remember Jon Krakauer mentioning. And my experience is that, placed into perspective, a lot of Mormon history becomes justifiable, or at least understandable.

I do agree with him that the LDS church has tried to sanitize its history, and (as a member of the LDS church) I think that's a shame. But there is, and probably always has been, this rather paranoid assumption among a lot of Mormons that non-Mormons are all hovering like vultures, watching us all minutely, just waiting for one of us to make a wrong move that they can broadcast to the world and use to destroy the church. It's a pretty stupid idea today. But it's a very common attitude, and I think probably dates all the way back to the 1830's, when Mormons knew first-hand the very real consequences of antagonizing non-Mormons.

As for me, I could care less. I'm proud of my religious heritage, and I see no need to apologize for any aspect of it. Some of it was plainly wrong. Most of it was really not wrong at all, when viewed in perspective. Much of it was simply people defending themselves when the law and the Constitution either could not or would not.

But it was all a long time ago, and many generations have passed since then. Like Juanita Brooks wrote in "The Mountain Meadows Massacre", we've reached a point where wounds have largely healed, and it's time to stop pointing fingers and just reconcile in an appreciation of another aspect of America's often brutal, rarely pretty, but none-the-less glorious heritage.

ATAR_i said...

No introspection whatsoever, I find that an interesting fact in and of itself.

As a non mormon - I even had some. I wasn't looking to find it, I was in for an interesting read.

I don't remember if you recall, but at the end of the book it waxes slightly philisophical when dealing with the issue of religion and belief. It prompts questions - did you not read that?

I suppose if your mind, and your opnions, feelings, ideas and abilities to learn are so thoroughly clamped shut, so that no foreign idea (or at least not one pre sanctioned by the LDS church) is allowed to touch it - then you might not have any introspection at all.

Probably sounds harsh, but I'm amazingly suprised.

muggsey said...

tbm:

The summary of your 7/20 4:57 post has completely verified that Joseph Smith was indeed a Mason.

That he was a seer, a gold digger, a con artist, a carnival fortune teller who also frequented racetracks and made odds based upon his seer stones. All these are documented. Many are the times that Smith was taken to court, sentenced to jail for fraud, the records of such occurances entered as public record are numerous.

The biggest joke of all, those who professed to have handled the golden plates later renounced that testimony. No one actually saw anything, but what Sidney Rigdon stole from Solomon Spalding, abridged and gave to Smith to enable his hoax.

TBM said...

Muggsey: The summary of your 7/20 4:57 post has completely verified that Joseph Smith was indeed a Mason.

Really? How interesting! Do tell how.

TBM said...

Muggsey: the records of such occurances entered as public record are numerous

No, they're not.

TBM said...

Muggsey: what Sidney Rigdon stole from Solomon Spalding, abridged and gave to Smith to enable his hoax

The only people who advocate the Solomon Spaulding theory are those who've never read his manuscript. You can, if you want to. It's available on the internet:

http://www.solomonspalding.com/docs/rlds1885.htm

You can also compare it to the Book of Mormon:

http://scriptures.lds.org/bm/contents

If you can find a significant comparison, you're a better man than I am!!!!!!

Anonymous said...

tbm--Wasn't Haun's mill the result of MORMON atrocities at Gallatin? To say the Mountain Meadow's incident was revenge for Haun's mill may be true, but lets look at the deeper picture. Of course, Gallatin was the result of ... which was the result of ..., etc.

ATAR_i said...

TBM, I'm not going to dive into this discussion, but I'm curious how mormon women deal with Smiths treatment of his wife in D&C 132.

Perhaps if I were raised LDS I might not be so offended about how he wrote his wife into 'scripture' and basically blackmailed her, but as an outsider looking in - it seems preposterous.

That said, I have several mormon friends and I NEVER broach this subject with them, I just can't - majorly taboo sort of stuff.

So I'm really asking, because I don't know how LDS women deal with that.

TBM said...

Wasn't Haun's mill the result of MORMON atrocities at Gallatin?

I don't know that it was the result of anything much. It was just a sad period of lunacy and brutality, where if people had an opportunity to act like thugs, they took advantage of it. And the Mormons were certainly no angels. But for reasons that are far too numerous and complex to detail here (I can e mail you an essay I wrote about the "Mormon War" if you wish), it is my honest opinion that the Mormons were the more-sinned-against.

TBM said...

atar_iI'm curious how mormon women deal with Smiths treatment of his wife in D&C 132

It's certainly strong language, but we don't know what was going on between Joseph and Emma Smith at the time. Possibly they were having a fight at the time. But what about, and what was being said, we have no idea.

But this was a personal revelation, directed specifically at Emma, and based on the situation that faced her at the time. It doesn't apply to anybody else.

In fact, I'm really not sure why it's even in the D&C at all. I guess the First Presidency has its reasons. Possibly they just don't want to give all the anti-Mormons yet another platform to berate the LDS Church from :-)

D&C 132 was not the first time by any means that Joseph Smith received revelations directed specifically at an individual. The D&C is full of them. We are a religion that believes in the ability to talk to God personally, and that God can reply personally.

But in spite of the strong language, when you look at it, it's really only restating the commandments -- a woman should cleave unto her husband and none other. And if she will not, she is under the Lord's condemnation.

I wouldn't have thought it would be a problem if you wanted to discuss it with your Mormon friends. As long as you did it with respect and integrity, which I'm sure you would. Mormons tend to be wary of non-Mormons' questions, because we do tend to get quite a lot of people who are really only asking so they can start a fight and tell us how evil we all are. And they really are a pain. But most Mormons, if they were certain that your inquiry was honest and sincere, would probably be very happy to talk about it.

muggsey said...

Oh, I HOPE that my observations are a PAIN. You people have bought into a man-made religion assembled by a ne'er'-do-well, seer, fortune telling, adulterous, thief of widows savings, gold digger,liar, cheat, and general menace to society. Then, to give credibility to his actions he would justify them by including them as another of his Doctrines & Covenants. His lieutenants have, to justify their actions, just piled it higher and deeper.

Your piety is disgusting.

TBM said...

You're right, Muggsey. Your observations are a pain.

Come home Street! All is forgiven!

muggsey said...

What's the matter tbm? Your sarcasm not equal to streeties?

ATAR_i said...

TBM,

Thanks for the response, I though that part of the D&C was for all mormons, not just JS's wife. Many times in the Bible, it seems that God is talking to a group of people, but the relevance is for all - not just that group. That's how I read that chapter of the D&C.

I don't think I can, I don't feel comfortable. Being anonymous I say things I wouldn't normally say to someone I'm not incredibly close to. So, I'll just ask my questions here. Thanks for indulging my curiosity.

onthestreet said...

MUCK-SEE said (7/25/2006 1:47 PM):

Oh, I HOPE that my observations are a PAIN. You people have bought into a man-made religion assembled by a ne'er'-do-well, seer, fortune telling, adulterous, thief of widows savings, gold digger,liar, cheat, and general menace to society. Then, to give credibility to his actions he would justify them by including them as another of his Doctrines & Covenants. His lieutenants have, to justify their actions, just piled it higher and deeper.

Your piety is disgusting.




STREET’s Reply: Yes, Judus also accused the Brethren of robbing widows, because of such “waste” being lavished upon the Lord’s Anointed. Nor are tithes and offerings robbery, but to fail in such, THAT IS ROBBERY of widow, child, and of God Himself (Mal. 3:8):

Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.

muggsey said...

ots

Your convoluted intrepetation and lack of understanding of the predestined and preordained actions Judas took. The Bible follows Judas complaint with the statement that Judas was a thief.

You have no understanding of God's plan for man's returning a portion of God's blessing as witness of his (man's) dependence upon God.

You don't know me nor do you know anything about my monitary functions. You have no concept of what sacriffical giving consists of. In your estimate if a tithe is given to another church it is robbing God.

I wouldn't give LDS or FLDS the time of day. So, if that sends me to terrestial heaven, or something similar, so be it. Just keep it up and see where you awaken on judgement day.

onthestreet said...

You speak well of yourself, and out of the abundancne of your heart hath proceeded your state of being.

TBM said...

Street, you sound like someone who's had rather a lot to drink.

ATAR_i said...

hmmm, that might explain a lot tbm. I hadn't thought of OTS as a lush, I had only considered that he is mentally ill and probably not consistantly medicated.

muggsey said...

Thanks tbm & atar_i

Your elloquence in describing ots strange behavior is noted, and appreciated. Most of the time I don't think he/she/it has a clue!