FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs may be serving life in prison, but his followers continue with their work on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas where the group's white limestone Temple towers over the town they are building. Polygamy, the practice of plural marriage, appears to be alive and well in the Lone Star State, despite laws to the contrary.
Wednesday, May 17, 2006
Short Creek Shut Down
The townspeople are scared and every business in town is shut down. What is happening? Rumors are that the cops have been arrested by the FBI for not co-operating.
Sounds like some thing P.O.S.T. or DPS might know! In time I would expect this, the media has already voiced concerns about their safety, if LE is still ansering to a priesthood authority.
County Sheriff was on site yesterday and seemed to be incharge. Heard a few names of officers now under investigation, but don't know how many or if all.
It could only happen in CC. I guess the cops had to go out of town to testify and out of town cops were in town. So the whole town shut down, the store, the dairy, the gas station, even the town offices were shut down. Seems like everyone is running scared. Only in the Creek !!
The other day, the fire department got a 911 call. A lady was in her closet with all her little children and told the dispatch "they are here and they are coming to get us" After the dispatch calmed her down, they realized it was someone from out of town knocking on her door.
Sounds like Warren Jeffs has told them the government is coming to get their children and they believe him.
The local therapists said that most of the people have dropped out of their program and they can no longer do house visits
Cult Watch The Flavor of the present time; 05.18.06Prosecution of polygamists justice not “persecution”Posted in Miscellaneous at 3:00 pm by Rick Ross | Link
As the FBI closes in on Warren Jeffs, the fugitive “prophet” of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), other polygamist leaders are beginning to sweat and wonder who will be next. One example is Canadian polygamist leader Winston Blackmore, who wants the media to know that his group is “not…like Jeffs” reports ABC News in Canada.
Winston Blackmore, was FLDS bishop At a press conference Blackmore attempted to put his spin on recent events, speaking from his home in Bountiful, British Columbia.
Rulon Jeffs, the deceased father of Warren Jeffs, once ruled over approximately 10,000 polygamists, primarily located within Arizona, Utah and British Columbia. Blackmore was once one of his “bishops,” ruling over the faithful Canadian faction serving like a feudal lord within the Jeffs kingdom.
But with the death of King Rulon, Blackmore no longer wants to be simply a vassal, so he broke away from Warren Jeffs.
It seems when it comes to the younger Jeffs current status; Blackmore is more than content that the FBI is stalking his enemy.
Winston Blackmore reportedly has 28 wives and about 100 children, but he says “We are not [Jeffs] and he does not represent the fundamentals of our faith.”
Whatever “fundamentals” Blackmore observes they seem to be essentially the same as Jeffs. And the only difference between their communities is largely whose the boss.
Something new has happened in recent years and that is the decisive and growing law enforcement crackdown concerning the criminal behavior of polygamists.
For half a century polygamist leaders pretty much did as they pleased, sexually abusing and exploiting children, violating labor laws, beating up or otherwise brutally punishing those that dared to disobey their edicts and expecting taxpayers outside their communities to pick up much of the tab through welfare and various public funded projects.
However, after years of government neglect the bad behavior of polygamists has caught up with them as reported by the Los Angeles Times.
The early beginnings of what can be seen as a virtual “sea change” amongst government officials from apathy to sympathy regarding the polygamy problem can be traced back to the late 1990s.
Tom Green, a relatively obscure self-styled Utah polygamist with five wives and 25 children, began grand standing and touting his lifestyle on television, through afternoon talk shows and evening magazine programs. In the end Green must have regretted this grab for attention, because it landed him up in prison after a child rape conviction.
Green is currently scheduled for parole in August 2007.
The image of polygamist patriarchs was rapidly changing by the turn of the last century, from the perception that they were somehow strange but honest and pious religious men, to that of wanton child abusers and sex offenders.
In 1998 a 16-year-old girl that fled from the rich and powerful Kingston polygamist group in Utah, after being raped and beaten, testified in open court against her father and an uncle she was forced to marry.
A sordid picture was being brought forth of sanctioned incest, brutal enforcement practices, which shocked the public and the leaders of the Mormon Church. What Mormon leaders in Utah like the proverbial “crazy uncle in the attic” had once tolerated became fodder for the tabloids and focused unwanted attention on their state.
In the fall of 1998 Gordon Hinkley, the President and “prophet” of the Mormon Church spoke out publicly. Though the leader of millions of Mormons acknowledged that polygamy had once been a teaching of the church he denounced it and tacitly stated that polygamists “don’t belong to the church,'’ and not pleased with how such group labeled themselves stated flatly, “There are no Mormon fundamentalists.'’
Senator Orrin Hatch, who at first attempted to describe Jeffs and his minions as “very fine people,” was later pressed to make a public statement against polygamy. ‘’No one should be raping a child … we need to protect our children,'’ Hatch finally said.
However, it should be understood that the so-called “Mormon fundamentalists” have a long history that goes back many decades. The FLDS itself goes back some 60 years in Arizona.
According to popular legend none other than Brigham Young himself once visited what later became FLDS land, then known as Pipe Springs and he beheld its towering Vermilion Cliffs.
“This is the right place [and it] will someday be the head and not the tail of the church [and]…the granaries of the Saints,” Young supposedly said.
But today the place is more like a pain in “the tail” of the Mormon Church.
And since the death of the preeminent polygamist Rulon Jeffs, the land that Young beheld has never been the same. The partriarch begot a sprawling rural religious and commercial empire that crossed state and national boundaries. Jeffs also beget at least 60 children and may have had 75 wives.
Warren Jeffs, on FBI 'Most Wanted' list But his son Warren is not as wily or wary as the elder ”prophet” was and he failed to keep his father’s legacy intact.
Increasingly, internal community problems within the Jeffs kingdom spilled into the pages of the press. There were forced evictions, lawsuits and investigations and the younger Jeffs seemed fated to be deposed. Today he is a hunted man, forced to flee and live on the lam. Jeffs recently was placed on the FBI’s “Most Wanted” list of criminals with a bounty on his head.
Perhaps this was due to the changing times more than just a single man.
An ill-fated raid on the Arizona polygamist communities some fifty years seemed to insure that they would be left alone. Polygamists and their problems were perceived as a political “tar baby” by state officials as reported by the Los Angeles Times.
But Marshall Trimble, Arizona’s state historian acknowledged, “We are a different society today than in 1953, and [state authorities] could take action without the political risk.”
Too bad for Warren Jeffs.
A seminal statement was made during 2004 by Arizona State legislators that probably marked the no turning back point. ‘’For too long, Arizona has allowed this grave problem to deteriorate. Too many young women have lost their virtue without their consent. Too many young lives have been shattered. Too many witnesses have been ignored. The time has come for Arizona to act,'’ they wrote.
And Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard was willing to act. '’This issue should unite all Arizonans,'’ he said.
In Utah with the support of the all-powerful Mormon Church, its state officials were likewise willing to move forward there too. An unprecedented cooperation began between the two state attorney generals, which continues today.
Jeffs remains a prime target for Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff’s prosecution of polygamists regarding marriages to underage girls. Shurtleff told the Phoenix New Times, “Once we establish the case and have the evidence, we will charge him.”
Caught between the two top law enforcement officials that held within their jurisdictions his largest groups of followers Jeffs watched as his power was stripped away. His polygamist police, judges and other officials lost their positions. At the same time public funds utilized by the communities was scrutinized and eventually Jeffs assets were frozen.
Polygamists from the Kingston klan in Utah likewise faced withering criminal prosecutions and official scrutiny.
The once mighty and powerful polygamist kingdoms were crumbling.
It’s no wonder that Winston Blackmore wants to preserve what’s left in Canada, considering that his little remnant of the former FLDS empire is worth millions of dollars.
Blackmore recently told the press that he expects to be arrested any day on charges of sexually exploiting girls in Bountiful. “We have one very reliable source that indicates that it will happen,” he said in an e-mail.
The polygamist patriarchs would have the public believe they are being “persecuted.” Not surprisingly the newspaper the Washington Times and wire service United Press International controlled by purported “cult leader” Rev. Sun Myung Moon reported that story.
Whenever ”cult leaders” are questioned about their actions it seems like it isn’t long before allegations of “persecution” surface.
For example Rev. Moon, once convicted for tax fraud made that claim, but the jury didn’t buy it. Interestingly, Orrin Hatch once defended him.
Posing as a concerned taxpayer Blackmore lamented the use of public funds to pursue polygamists. ”A million and a half dollars, [a] five-year run to the Supreme Court of Canada — all when every single person knows, including the RCMP, that it would be a waste of time,” he said.
But if you ask the children that have fled polygamy, it seems doubtful that they would feel the same, especially considering the arrests of their one-time tormentors.
Canada and the United States have a history of protecting religious freedom. The question arising about polygamy and its adherents has legally never been about their right to believe whatever they wish, but rather focused upon their desire to do anything they want in the name of those beliefs.
Polygamists live under the law and the prosecution of polygamists that break the law is not “persecution,” it’s justice.
Makes you wonder who is paying for Rodney Parkers services, the man doesn't work for free! Salt Lake City Tribune 5-17-06 Court rejects polygamy defense Utah's chief justice dissents, says state law violates privacy
The Utah Supreme Court rejected a former Hildale police officer's bid to decriminalize polygamy Tuesday, in a historic split decision that wrestles with same-sex unions and the meaning of marriage. Four of the court's five justices said Rodney Holm's relationship with a 16-year-old ''spiritual wife'' fell ''squarely within the realm of behavior criminalized by our state's bigamy statute.'' The majority added that constitutional protections for religion don't shield polygamists from prosecution. But in a 37-page dissent, Chief Justice Christine M. Durham said she would have overturned Holm's bigamy conviction, finding the law doesn't apply to relationships that lack a marriage license. Durham pointed to the increasing number of couples who live together outside the bonds of a traditional marriage, and noted they are not prosecuted. "While some in society may feel that the institution of marriage is diminished when individuals consciously choose to avoid it," she wrote, "it is generally understood that the state is not entitled to criminally punish its citizens for making such a choice, even if they do so with multiple partners or partners of the same sex." It took the court just over 15 months to release the 85-page opinion.
Assistant Attorney General Laura Dupaix said the decision ensures the state will continue to enforce laws against bigamy, a third-degree felony, especially when children are involved. "I assure you there will be [more prosecutions] as we get evidence of underage marriage, welfare fraud, tax fraud," she said. "We are going to continue to go after these crimes. This means polygamists are not going to be able to commit these heinous crimes and shield themselves under the cloak of religion".
Attorney Rodney Parker, who represented Holm in the appeal, said the outcome was disappointing and he will consider an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court. He said Durham's dissent is a legal landmark. "In my recollection, this is the first time you see such a scholarly and rigorous analysis of this issue yielding a conclusion that the practice of polygamy should be a constitutionally protected practice among consenting adults," he said.
Purporting to marry: Holm had appealed one bigamy and two sex offense convictions stemming from his "spiritual" marriage in 1998 to 16-year-old Ruth Stubbs, with whom he had two children. At the time, Holm was 32, legally married to Stubbs' sister and had another spiritual wife. All were members of the polygamous Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. State law says a person is guilty of bigamy when, "knowing he has a husband or wife or knowing the other person has a husband or wife, the person purports to marry another person or cohabits with another person." Holm argued he did not "purport to marry" Stubbs because neither expected to gain the benefits of a legal marriage. Justice Matthew B. Durrant, writing for the majority, responded that Utah lawmakers did not intend to narrowly define marriage as a state-sanctioned union. There can be no doubt that Holm purported to marry Stubbs, Durrant wrote, citing her white dress, her vows and their life together. "The crux of marriage in our society, perhaps especially a religious marriage, is not so much the license as the solemnization . . . by which two individuals commit themselves to undertake a marital relationship," Durrant wrote. Durham disagreed, saying the state interest in marriage does not extend to those who enter informal religious unions. The majority's ruling subjects religious leaders to criminal sanctions for performing ceremonies "that are not intended by anyone involved to have significance beyond the community in which they occur," Durham wrote. "For example, a minister officiating in a commitment ceremony involving a same-sex couple may now be held in violation of [the law,] (though perhaps only if at least one partner is wearing a white dress)," she wrote.
Assailing the polygamy ban: Attacking the constitutionality of Utah's ban on polygamy, Parker argued Holm should be able to have a legal marriage with a first wife, then enter into religious unions with other women as a way to reach the highest degree of heaven as part of his religion. Reynolds v. U.S., a famous 1879 U.S. Supreme Court ruling that upheld the prosecution of a religiously motivated Utah polygamist, is a "hollow relic of bygone days" of fear and prejudice, Parker contended. But Durrant said the U.S. Supreme Court continues to cite that decision and has since said a state statute can restrict an individual's exercise of religion if it is a neutral law that applies to everyone. The framers of Utah's constitution clearly understood the ban - a condition of statehood - "to mandate the prevention of polygamy and not to merely prohibit government recognition of polygamy," he wrote. But Durham concluded the ban was meant only as an acknowledgment that polygamous marriages would not be legally recognized. She would find Holm's relationship with Stubbs qualified as an exercise of religion.
Also at issue: the impact of a landmark 2003 U.S. Supreme Court ruling, Lawrence v. Texas, that struck down that state's same-sex sodomy law. It found private, consensual sexual behavior is protected by the due process clause of the 14th amendment. But Durrant wrote that ruling was limited to private, intimate acts by gays and lesbians. The Utah case hinged on the institution of marriage, which involves both private and public behavior, he said. Dupaix agreed. "What the majority points out is marriage is more than just private sexual relationships," she said. "Marriage has always been recognized as an institution the state has an interest in defining."
'Differing from the norms': Rowenna Erickson, co-founder of the Salt Lake City-based Tapestry Against Polygamy, was overjoyed with the ruling. "Polygamy itself is a breeding ground for other types of abuses," said Erickson, who left the Salt Lake City-area Kingston polygamous clan in 1992. "The more people become educated about polygamy, the more aware they'll become of its diabolical conditions." Anne Wilde of Principle Voices of Polygamy, a group that supports decriminalization of plural marriage, said she was not surprised by the decision. Pointing out that it took years for blacks, women and gays "to get anything close to equal rights," Wilde said the ruling is a step in the process and hopes the case will go to the U.S. Supreme Court. "Just recently people have been speaking out in defense of the lifestyle," said Wilde, a widowed plural wife who describes herself as a fundamentalist Mormon. Salt Lake City civil rights attorney Brian Barnard was pleased that Durham acknowledged the law criminalizes consenting adults who "chose to live in an intimate relationship differing from the norms of the majority." He and Parker criticized the majority for relying on the century-old Reynolds case. "A majority of the Utah Supreme Court . . . keeps Utah jurisprudence in the 19th century," Barnard said. A Utah federal judge in 2005 rejected a similar challenge from Barnard to the prohibition on polygamy. Despite the rulings, Barnard said "a thorough and intellectual discussion [about polygamy] is going to have to occur."
The prosecution of Rodney Holm * Hildale police Officer Rodney Holm was "spiritually" married to 16-year-old Ruth Stubbs in 1998. Then 32, Holm was legally married to Stubbs' sister and had another spiritual wife. * He was charged in October 2002 with one count of bigamy and two counts of unlawful sexual relations with a 16- or 17-year-old, third-degree felonies. * A Washington County jury convicted him in August 2003. He was sentenced that October to one year in jail and has since been released. * Holm's Utah certification as a police officer was revoked after his convictions.
Quotes
"Marital relationships serve as the building blocks of our society. The state must be able to assert some level of control over those relationships for the smooth operation of laws . . . The people of this state have declared monogamy a beneficial marital form and have also declared polygamous relationships harmful."
Justice Matthew B. Durrant, Writing for the majority
"Any two people can make private pledges to each other, with or without the assistance of a religious official, but these private commitments are not equivalent to marriage absent a license or an adjudication of marriage."
Chief Justice Christine M. Durham
The Holm ruling "probes a particularly sensitive area of our state's identity. No matter how widely known the natural wonders of Utah may become, no matter the extent that our citizens earn acclaim for their achievements, in the public mind Utah will forever be shackled to the practice of polygamy."
The FBI in conjunction with the Department of Justice and The Utah Governer have de-certified every officer in CC thus taking away the "marshal and police powers" they once had. The county Sheriff has been instructed to post overtime officers (deputy's) in CC with a new substation in the works.
``The conflict lies in when they are asked if they are going to uphold the (state) Constitution or are they going to follow the dictates of Warren Jeffs,'' said Townsend, who added that he was aware of the grand jury proceedings. ``Rather than answer the question, they are choosing silence.''
That silence was evident in depositions of Barlow and two other officers taken last month by attorneys representing the court-appointed accountant now in control of the UEP trust.
The officers dodged questions about the disappearance of a grain elevator, a modular building and other equipment from trust property in January. The trust holds most of the property in Colorado City and Hildale, including homes and businesses.
Barlow also failed to answer when asked if he is a Jeffs follower or if he would follow orders from church leaders before upholding the law.
I was there and photographed the elevator being dismantled and provide those pictures to the press. I also noted peticular law enforcement vehicles circling the Mill facility. Personally I am aware that local law enforcement was on site while the elevator was being taken down.
Where is the deniability and with such disregard for the law, these same officers are carrying guns with a lethal potential to cross other lines as well, if defending the religion is required. If you would lie abouth theft, what would they do to obstruct the law or worse bounty hunters coming after their leader who is a fleeing felon?
Leahy singles out Hatch on plural marriage Gets a grilling: '[Hatch] says he knows a number of polygamists in Utah, says they're fine people'
By Robert Gehrke The Salt Lake Tribune
WASHINGTON - There was no "Big Love" between Sen. Orrin Hatch and Vermont Sen. Patrick Leahy on Thursday, as Hatch angrily denied Leahy's suggestion that Hatch defends polygamists. Leahy raised Hatch's past comments on the issue of plural marriage during a debate on whether a constitutional amendment aimed at banning same-sex marriage should also prohibit polygamous unions. The Democrat wondered aloud about the amendment's impact on polygamy. "[Hatch] says he knows a number of those polygamists in Utah, says they're fine people," Leahy said. Hatch took exception, saying he hadn't made such statements. But Leahy countered that Hatch has been quoted saying as much in past news reports. "You don't think they're fine people?" Leahy asked. "I've met some who are very sincere, but I don't justify it," Hatch said. "Well, if you know they're out there committing a felony and you haven't reported it, then you . . . ," Leahy began. "Don't accuse me of wanting polygamy," Hatch snapped. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints publicly disavowed polygamy in 1890 and it was outlawed in Utah at the insistence of the federal government as a condition of statehood. Under Utah law, plural marriage is a third-degree felony. But breakaway groups continue to practice plural marriage. There are believed to be tens of thousands of polygamists throughout the West. Warren Jeffs, the leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a polygamous group that split from the Mormon church and set up an enclave on the Utah-Arizona border, was recently added to the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list, prompting renewed national interest in the practice. Vicky Prunty, executive director of Tapestry Against Polygamy, a support group for women seeking to escape the lifestyle, said Hatch has done nothing to help stop the practice and has declined to meet with her group. "This has been going on under his nose for decades and he has never taken a strong stand against polygamy when it's been a felony all along," Prunty said. "I don't know what it's going to take for Senator Hatch and others to start
caring for the voiceless citizens of Utah, namely children, whose human and civil rights are being violated." At a meeting in southern Utah in 2003, Hatch was pressed to take a stand against polygamy, but balked at a hard-line stand. "I'm not here to justify polygamy," he said at the time. "All I can say is, I know people in Hildale who are polygamists who are very fine people. You come and show me evidence of children being abused there and I'll get involved. Bring the evidence to me." Asked to elaborate on his view on polygamy Thursday, Hatch said in a statement: "Polygamy is against the law. It's that simple." "Some of the people who live in polygamous communities are very sincere and are striving to live their religious beliefs. But that doesn't justify what they do. Polygamy is still against the law," he said. "Nobody, whether they are in a monogamous or polygamous relationship, should be raping or abusing a child," Hatch said. The senator said he has also helped secure $750,000 for shelters, legal services, education, and training for women and children who leave polygamist sects. Like most people with Mormon lineage, Hatch has polygamist ancestry. His great-great grandfather, Hezekiah Hatch, had four wives, as did the senator's great-grandfather, Jeremiah Hatch, who fathered 30 children and founded the town of Vernal at the direction of Brigham Young. --- MediaNews reporter Evan Lehman contributed to this report.
WHO IS NEXT? GOT TO CONSULT A IRON CLAD PAPER TRAIL. FOR SENATOR HATCH, ITS NOT A GOOD IDEA TO DENY WHAT HE SAID, AS VIDEO CAMERA'S WERE ROLLING THE NIGHT HE SAID IT. YOU CAN GO FROM KNEE DEEP, TO WAISTE DEEP IN A SINGLE STATEMENT, SO I SUGGEST THE SENATOR LISTENS TO WHAT THE PUBLIC HEARD, BEFORE DENYING SOMETHING WAS SAID.
Well for those historians here, Robert Gehrke wrote that piece today about Leahy & Hatch and was one in the same who wrote and followed the September 2000 lift off in Colorado City. I'd say there was a pattern here, if you know what I mean.
The writers who are following this issue are old veterans and know the history. Likely they already had what MIB was offering. You wouldn't accuse Senator Hatch of misplaced loyalties, without first having both the 2003 transcript and the video of that now famous St. George Town Hall meeting. Since Orrin denied this at first, I am wondering who will get the video feed up first of that meeting.
Its a new word of technology and communications and you can no longer escape your own past. If you interview and have been quoted in the press, you can depend on the them finding that quote.
Imagine if you will what Leahy knew this morning, verses what he will know next week, when the media continues asking him questions??? A Senator in search of answers and I am sure his staff is busy tracking answers down.
the FBI went around town and were going into the stores asking questions and givig sopenas(sp) along with them knocking on doors who else would shut the door in an FBI agent but a warrenite...So any way the next day all the stores connected to Warren were closed. The grocery store had a sign that said "closed for inventory" which is kind of funny because the lights were out and no one was in there, so I guess they have found ghosts that can inventory in the dark ha ha. The FBI is still haning around so everyone is on edge
"A seminal statement was made during 2004 by Arizona State legislators that probably marked the no turning back point. ‘’For too long, Arizona has allowed this grave problem to deteriorate. Too many young women have lost their virtue without their consent. Too many young lives have been shattered. Too many witnesses have been ignored. The time has come for Arizona to act,'’ they wrote.
THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT HOWARD PILE SAID IN 1953
THIS IS WHAT THE UTAH ASST AG SAID: "I assure you there will be [more prosecutions] as we get evidence of underage marriage, welfare fraud, tax fraud," she said. "We are going to continue to go after these crimes. This means polygamists are not going to be able to commit these heinous crimes and shield themselves under the cloak of religion".
THIS IS WHAT ORRIN HATCH SAID: "I'm not here to justify polygamy," he said at the time. "All I can say is, I know people in Hildale who are polygamists who are very fine people. You come and show me evidence of children being abused there and I'll get involved. Bring the evidence to me."
YOU SHEEPLE AMAZE ME!!
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO BRING TO THE SENATOR. IT DOESNT EXIST!!
THE REASON WARREN JEFFS IS ON THE 10 MOST WANTED LIST IS BECAUSE OF PUKING RABID PUPPIES, HE IS MORE INNOCENT THAN ANY ONE OF YOU!(Or even me.)
The mentality here is the same that murdered Joseph Smith. GO FIND Mr. Jeffs, kill him. Then after the fact look through all the "evidence" and you will find you murdered an innocent man. Kill all of the men that follow him, and there will be more men raised by the faithful mothers.
This is the same mentality of the people who raided Short Creek in 1953. The same claims of welfare fraud, forced marriage, and slavery. WHERE IS THE PROOF? JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE YELL AND SCREAM THAT THIS IS GOING ON DOESNT PROVE ANYTHING!! THEY ARE LYING!! Do you really think that the only reason that this has never been proven is because of lack of effort? Ask the welfare People, ask the child protective services, ask the AG office, they believe the mob, they just cant seem to find proof, they are even going on the record agreeing with the mob, they just can't seem to find that doggone elusive evidence of wrongdoing.
Rodney Holm was convicted of breaking a law that was created after it was broken. Why did the judge give him the minimum sentence possible? DUH!! Ask Ruth if she wanted Rodney to go to jail. She will say no.
All the UNCONSTITUTIONAL laws that are being broken by the FLDS were created after the fact, just to appease the mob.
The Mob yells "SLAVERY, FORCED MARRIAGE, WELFARE FRAUD, CHILD ABUSE" (And anything else thier vile brains can invent) YELLING AND SCREAMING IS THE ONLY PROOF THEY HAVE!
The lawmakers hear this and make laws against beeing able to exercise the freedom of religion.
I will prophesy, and tell you all, that the FLDS church will outlast the United States. (That came from me) Because there are mothers who teach their sons and daughters that this is the true religion of heaven.
Sooner or (more likely) later you will all realize that Warren Jeffs is innocent of any crime against any person who ever lived.
Proof, you want proof. Look what happened to my sister.
My sister was forced into a marriage at age 14. She was forced against her will! Forced against her mothers will! Her father was never even told until after the fact.
Then raped repeatedly!
Then when the went to Warren Jeff's for help what was she told... that your husband has every right to rape you! That you are to surrender your body to your husband. This is how lost to all that is right and good this man has become!
Rumors... we are not talking rumors. I've seen first hand how warped and twisted this religion has become.
Jesus of Nazareth said "by their works you shall know them".
Well, what is it going to take before we wake up!
Look at what has happened. Families ripped apart. Children thrown out like the are garbage, as if they were less then human. Girls being forced into marriages. Families being exploited financially for all they are worth. Workers being exploited. Robbery of those who create value to build the mansions of those who have never worked a day in their life! How right can that be!
Fear mongering... How many ends of the world will their be before we finally wake up!
And then being commanded to pray for the destruction of others.
Have we lost all discernment in what is good and holy????
This madness has got to end!
Wake up! There is nothing noble, right, or good about what this religion has become. It is time for this madness to end. But nobody is going to do it for us. It is not until we ourselves say enough is enough. We're not going along with it anymore!
Lastly, there is no man that is perfect, this is emphatically stated over and over again in the Bible - and I don't believe that D&C or BOM contradict this (is that so?).
Anyhow - that is why we NEED salvation - correct?
There is none without sin - NONE. So, wether some commit more sin than other - that is for NO MAN to know. God is the ONLY one who can forgive the few or the many sins.
So there could be one who commits many sins - and receives much forgiveness, and one who commits little sin - yet asks no forgiveness - NO MAN can judge which is the man who stands in good favor with God (from the outside).
My hair stands up when people call a MAN perfect - what doctrine is this?
As far as evidence of wrongdoing, perhaps you haven't been involved in secrecy in a city government level where your boss told you to quit talking so much or you could get him put in jail. I've been there.
Yes the truth will come out, but at what cost? You could build many houses from the savings from lawyer fees alone. Let alone the freedom from bodily harm or prison.
He may be guilty of breaking laws that have been created just for the very purpose of making him a criminal, but he is innocent of any crime against anyone on the face of the earth. Do you people think that the accusations of abuse, force and fraud are new to the FLDS since Warren Jeffs became the leader? Go and read the newspaper archives, the stories repeat themselves over and over again clear back to Joseph Smith.
It is obvious that he is on the FBI list not because of what he is charged with (performing marriages, fleeing); but he is on there because of screaming rabid puppies. (accusations of abuse, force, and fraud). Is this not obvious?
I admit I have lied. I posted on here again when I said I wouldn't. I apologize. I should do better, and quit reading this garbage, but here I am.
atar_i That was not her mother.
I AM A LIAR for posting again on here, (I was posting anonymously as 2:00), but definately not of the same class of liar as Flora Jessop, or whoever that is. I happen to know Ruby, and her mother.
Warren Jeffs does not think he is perfect, nor do I, but I think he is as good a man as his father was, and the prophets in the Bible were. I think it an honor to be classed with Jeffs. He has never forced anyone to do anything. You are free to go, and do, whatever you want. The only thing is if you want to be FLDS, you will WANT to seek him, and WANT to listen to him. I know that he wants only the best for everyone.
Nothing can shame me except my own doings. (I am actually kind of ashamed for posting on here, because it has the appearance that what I seek to defend needs my defense, IT DOES NOT) I do not care if you do not like me or my religion, or my leader. I do not seek your approval, or your destruction. I just seek the freedom that was given to me by God, and supposedly given to me by the first amendment.
How can you say warren is innocent of everything except the laws that were created *after* he had already acted the way he did.
I only ask, because I know you have absolutely no ability to know that.
You yourself state that you are in 'the crick' - you are not with him. You can state that he hasn't done anything, but unless you've been attached to his side since his birth, went into the mens lavatories with him, lay in his marriage bed, sat in on all his private meetings - there is NO WAY you can know what you say you know.
You believe him to be innocent, based on your experiences with him - and that's ok.
The way you speak, we need no judge, jury, prosecution or defense - you'll do all those jobs based on your limited knowledge of him.
Granted, you have a lot MORE knowledge of him that me, but a lot LESS than FTTC - and he has a completely different opinion of the situation.
Just look at what you say, let your own mouth show you just what you have put your faith in. You are honest about yourself, but be honest WITH yourself - you cannot know what you say you know.
Mark my words: Even if Warren is ever brought to trial, you still will never hear the whole truth! It has never come out in the past, nor will it now or in the future.
Argue and speculate all you want about Warren Jeffs. Like Furnace says, there are secrets - many many secrets - only known by very, very few people. A court of law is probably the LAST place you would ever expect to hear the whole truth.
atar_i Actually I have much more knowledge of him than fttc, I heard him speak many hundred more times than fttc has. I have sat in on private meetings with him many, many times, and he never once deviated from exactly what he said in public. It is plain that fttc is a rabid puppy. He had disputes with both of our two previous leaders as well.
I believe that if you were born where I was born, and raised as I was raised, you would be on my side of this issue, you seem sincere.
mugwump You seem to know all about it. But all you have heard is the stories of puking rabid puppies.
Your rape claim is putrid. Your source is rabid puppies.
Hunting retreats. Hunting peace and freedom.
He is my prophet because he is and was the most qualified. I heard his father say so with my own ears.
The UEP taxes have always been paid, the non payment now is just a sign of protest.
The faithful have never lost their homes until now. The UEP was set up in the first place to hold land for the faithful to build on. Only the unfaithful were asked off. Did you know Benny Bistline got his house he now lives in from the FLDS? That same help was offered many other rabid puppies.
Jeffs has made no prophesy of the end of the world on a certain day. The prophesies that you have heard of, I heard from the same place as you. The newspaper.(rabid puppies)
Warren Jeffs, I am sure, mourns for his nephew. I do. I knew Brent when he was a cute little boy. I knew his brother Claine who commited suicide. These fellows were taught one thing by their father, and then later taught the opposite. That lawsuit is so bugus and disgusting it is not even worth mentioning. Why did he wait until Warren became the leader? And why is it in civil and not crimial court? I really honestly feel sorry for Brent. I think he is being taken advantage of by his father and Dan Fischer. Did you know that Dan Fischer and Ward Jeffs both have children who are as brainwashed as I am? Go figure.
Who is being fooled here.
I apologize for coming here and giving the truth as I and several thousand others see it. I know it ruins all your fun.
I don't expect the truth to come out now, but it will slowly. The wheels of justice grind slow, but they grind excedingly fine.
Maybe they get Mobsters on tax evasion, maybe they will get Warren Jeffs on rape. The point is that the sins they commit are far greater than that...but they have to be stopped with something, so a little log is put in front of a big snowball coming down the hill. It is a little bump, but if we get enough little logs it will be a wall, That should do the job.
Continue to support the demon spawn of Satan who goes about doing satins' work of removing the God given agency of the people. and Ripping apart families to feed his own ego. He is a spineless wimp who hides behind women and children. if he had answered the charges against him he and you would not be in the position you are in know but he cares nothing for you or anyone else, only his own power trip. So pleas continue to support him so that when God gives him his reward you can have an equal portion of those comforting fires of hell
When I went to Salt Lake with Lawrence Steed and the community band to perform for Uncle Rulon, some of the other students were wispering in hushed tones about the nephews being messed with. There are students from Alta that are now talking that Clayne and Brent confided about being molested. No, these charges did NOT wait until he "became the prophet". Why was Clayne kicked out of the Jeffs school? It was because he shouted through the halls, "Warren molested me and I am going to kill him."
Look at how cults operate if you dare to open your eyes and go to a public library. One very common thing is the leader is sexually deviant, and to cover his sins, he puts on such a good show that he deceives others, and I will dare say, Warren even deceived Uncle Rulon (gasp! Wasn't Rulon a prophet who could discern such things). Warren, by his own voice, said "When I confessed to Father some of my moral sins, that is when I began to get close to him. Young people, confess to your parents your sins; they aren't hidden. We know what you are doing." Sounds to me like a guilt complex over something more serious that a JCPenney lingerie picture. Whenever a person is so damn holy that he is unhumanly holy, he is hiding sexual deviance.
Anne compares Warren to Joseph. Was Joseph Smith innocent? More and more evidence is proving him more and more of a cult leader. Every cult has its "apostates", and the first thing the cult does is try to discredit defectors as rabbid hate-mongers.
Just reconcile the following--
(1) It was actual prophecy that Rulon would live 320 years into the millennium. Now, Heaven's Gate made a similar prophey when Ti dies and Do explains it away as Ti is preparing a place for them and will come back. Sounds similar.
(2) Were Uncle John and Uncle Roy off their rocker when they declared that it was against the laws of God for any man to marry one of his father's wives. If Warren descends from these men, why is he blatantly contradicting his heritage. Uncle Roy declared that any man that will marry one of his father's wives is one of the wickedest men there is.
(3) Just what great virtue have the FLDS done that makes them so damn much holier than all others. Read about cults. That is the beginning of disaster in every cult. It becomes "us righteous them wicked". Once that mentality sets in, the cult goes off the deep end. If Centennial or Winston starts isolating themselves from the world with the attitude of "us righteous them wicked", these groups, too, will go off the deep end. Look at Jonestown, Heaven's Gate, and other cult disasters. The people isolated themselves from the wicked world and took a judgmental attitude "them wicked, us only rightous".
(4) No actual dates on a prophecy, huh. Well SLC was to be destroyed BEFORE the olympics, and we got all excited because of a little wind storm that removed the roof off a building as evidence of SLC being destroyed. Sounds like sign seeking to me, and read what the Jesus said about sign seekers. Everything about Warren reeks of sign seeking from incoherent conjured up revelations to failed propecies.
I had a leader whom I believed in sincerely. And I'm not saying he was a bad leader, and that he didn't love God - he surely did. But he had some struggles - he was human.
When those struggles were brought to light (he asked for help) some people chose to be disgusted. I personally was not, I got it. My opinion of him, or my beliefs about his sincerity towards God never wavered.
It was incredibly intense having to deal with his struggles publicly - having everyone know the secret he hid for so long. Some do not recover from that, and I do not know if he ever did. I do know that I will always cherish who his was to me, and thank God for his presence in my life as an example and a help.
That said, warren is no different than any other human. We all have secrets, things we struggle with. For some, it's easy to see, others not so easy, or more insulated and protected. And, if they don't want to deal with it, no one might ever know.
I realize that in some situations people choose to make false allegations, but those circumstances are less common. Brent has made specific allegations, and so did his brother - who took his own life. He sounds like a tortured soul.
If, years and years ago, while the boys were still young, allegations were made, and no one listened, and no one acted these boys had no where else to go.
Now, one does, and he went to someone who would listen.
I would like to see this brought out in open court, I would love for you to go watch, and see if you can listen to the facts and the testimonies and let them speak for themselves. Does everyone see something you don't - I guess you will see at the end when a verdict is returned.
False allegations are infinitesmal when compared to declarations of innocence.By percentile alone - it is certainly more probable that warren jeffs is claiming he is innocent - than a young man is making false allegations.
I for one would like to compliment you for having the "guts" to come on this blog and take on the masses. I wish there were more FLDS faithful who would get involved in the discussion. An open dialogue would be helpful--to both sides. I'm sure the media misrepresent Warren more than they do him justice. I know that is the case with the FLDS as a whole. The media only prints half of the story at best. But that is because the FLDS will not give their side. It's time for some balance.
I do have one issue for which I would like more clarification, though. You say, "He is my prophet because he is and was the most qualified. I heard his father say so with my own ears."
What are those qualifications? Was he ordained to any priesthood office that would qualify him to sit in his position? If so, what ordination does he have, who performed the ordination, and what witnesses were present. We have this information for ALL of his predecessors, but not for him.
All that quoting and he still didn't answer the question.
Everyone else had a ceremony - did warren have one? - that was the question.
And BTW - the 'you shall know them by their fruit' - probably isn't the greatest scripture to lead off with when you're trying to support warren. Just an FYI.
atar-i: I'm rotflmao! I was just thinking the same thing. "By their fruits ye shall know them." INDEED!!! That's how we all know what warren the fruitcake is!
anne: I believe that if you were born where I was born, and raised as I was raised, you would be on my side of this issue
I WAS. And I'm not on your side of this issue. Because I finally opened my eyes and allowed my brain and my heart to finally tell me what my poor churning guts had been for 4 years: Warren is a FRAUD and he has systematically changed EVERYTHING. Be honest. Look in your heart and listen to your inner voice. You know you have doubts about him but even at this moment you are stifling them in hopes of having your eternal salvation "through Warren". Does this actually make sense? Did God actually command us to rely on the arm of flesh in the form of Warren?
Please, just for your own sake, just THINK about it. You don't even have to reply. Just listen to your still small voice you were taught to from infancy.
No-one but God is the witness--this is cult mentality. Everything about Street's recent response reeks of cult mentality. Refusing to answer with common sense and replying with a barrage of incoherent religious dogma. Cult leaders also believe they are maligned and misrepresented.
My personal view of Jeffs is that God's punishment for pedophilia is a scrambled mind, and I think he sincerely believes his nonsense. Pedophilia is RAMPANT in cult leaders. So is followers thinking they talk to God, as is evidenced by Street's replay that no one but God witnessed the ordination done by God himself. Shake you head, street, that is total cult-mentality. It isn't just Warren.
A continual flippant adolecent take on life and issues of great importance to others.
Get off the blog ots. No one wants to read your garbage. You just waste scroll down time until those of us who read the posts are weary of your hysterical garbage get past your tirades and your general lack of respect for anyone, but your wonderful (your description) of that paragon of Satanism Warren Jeffs.
Goodbye and go to sheol-hades, and take that little homosexual pervert with you. You would make a good pair. You could even form a company "Queers R Us."
What happened to the basic Article of our Faith, number 5?
Priesthood comes from the laying on of hands. Period. No excuses. Why would Warren ascend to his position in a manner differently than John Taylor, Lorin Woolley, John Y Barlow, Leroy S Johnson? Each of these were ordained to their offices by another human being. We have the dates, and the wording of the ordinations.
Wake up, Street. I have no idea who you are, but you are showing a complete lack of respect for the priesthood that has gone before. This belief that Warren got the priesthood from God himself argues squarely in the face of all Mormon history and tradition. What an insult!
Uncle Rulon is the last prophet and Warren speaks for Father....(for about a year after Uncle Rulon died.) Now Warren IS the prophet, walking and speaking with GOD. He is AS God to the people.
This blog is proof that all there is is a bunch of hate mongers with skeletons in their own closets believing that proof comes by getting enough people to yell and scream.
Warren Jeffs is the leader of the people who want him for a leader. Everyone else please go away and have a great life!
Why do you try to tell us what to believe? Why do you lie and say he committed a crime against you? You know you are lying. But of course I saying it doesn't prove it, but you know, and we all will answer for our own deeds won't we?
I do not claim to be holier than anyone else on the planet, I just happen to believe that Warren Jeffs is the man who has the authority on earth over me, and he became my leader because his father put him there. I witnessed that. Now you do not have to believe it, and I am in no way trying to get you to believe as I do, I just wish you people would quit blaming him for your own problems.
And you "rescuers" of "victims" please realize that there are few or no victims here. And everything you do to attack Warren Jeffs or any of the other men is not appreciated by any girl here. IF you want to help real victims, help these poor people who are so overwhelmed with hate that they can't see straight. It seems that most of them believe themselves when they blame all their problems on Warren Jeffs.
I believe atar_i would be on my side of this issue because she was sincere in her beliefs. But atar_i your leader was not Warren Jeffs. IF you were to see his sincerity, you too could see these hate mongers lies as plainly as I do. IF you would have gone to school with those two boys you would know that they were never mistreated by Warren Jeffs. I did. My brother was Claine's good friend. I know for a fact that Claine never once made this allegation until after he died. I am appalled beyond belief that his father would say that his only boys who were abused by Warren are Brent and his two dead sons. It is pathetic, I feel sorry for Ward, and his living sons.
If Clayne never made this allegation until Rulon died, why did he get kicked out of Jeffs school after shouting that Warren molested him and he was going to kill him?
He didnt get kicked out. He finished eighth grade. He dropped out. He had two younger brothers and a sister that finished highschool at Alta.
Quote from a SLTrib article:
" Among Jeffs' targets: children of his half brother, Ward. Jeffs apparently considered one of Ward's two wives too free-spirited and her children, who lived in the compound, a bad influence. As an experiment, Jeffs suspended her four children from school for two to three months to see if their absence improved the "spirit" in their classrooms. "There was nothing extreme to them that would justify keeping them out," said Dan Fischer, Jaleena's father. Fischer met with Rulon Jeffs, who had succeeded Johnson as prophet, and argued the expulsion would psychologically harm the children. Fischer said Rulon Jeffs turned to Jeffs, asked how long the suspensions would last, and then gave his approval. One of the suspended children, Brent Jeffs, alleged in a lawsuit filed in July 2004 that when he was 5 or 6, Jeffs and two other uncles repeatedly sodomized him in a bathroom at the school. Brent Jeffs, backed by his father, also alleges the men abused two of his brothers; one brother committed suicide in 2001."
The other "victim" died of a heart attack after the suit was filed. Why was he not named a victim then?
Why did they want back in to the school if they were abused?
Oh Street and Anne, Your millenium is a sad and woeful thing!!! If your prophet can't do any better than this the eternal destiny of this earth is a terrifying thing. The Second Coming of Christ was supposed to happen with NO DOUBT in the mind of EVERY soul on the earth that Christ had arrived with all HIS power and Glory. THAT MEANS EVERY SOUL -- inculding those in darkest Africa. "So every knee shall bend and every soul rejoice." Your prophet is a pathetic sniveling horror who hides behind women children and young boys. You are Grim --- and your people will tell on you to this slimy snake prophet.
It sounds like the boys didn't talk to the girls after all. The boys coming out of Jeffs school that are willing to talk tell how these boys made noise about being molested for years, not just after Warren was the "prophet".
I myself, went through some mild molestation by a man who is still the in FLDS. I have made a few rumblings, but nothing serious. I would just as soon leave the man alone and not make an issue of it 25 years later. If that man were to ever think he was the prophet or start ruining other people's lives, I would make a stink about his own past. Isn't it obvious why Brent didn't say too much until now?
Anne, I was like you, and I probably would have believed exactly as you do - I couldn't imagine doing such things, and the people who taught me to be the way they am - I ASSUME they couldn't possibly be capable of it either.
But, I was wrong.
Many of us were wrong.
It is possible for people you love and respect to struggle with things that we have no knowledge of.
I guess I learned that we are all human, and all capable of sin - despite appearances.
Just as easily as I defend those who look less saintly (because you cannot know the condition of the heart by the outside), and cannot endorse those solely based on position, family ties.
None can know the condition of a mans heart - only God.
I do not endorse Warren Jeffs solely on position and family ties. I had great respect for him when all he was was a volunteer schoolteacher. I could see in him a great love and loyalty even back then.
IF Warren Jeffs had not become the leader of the FLDS, I have no doubt that whomever would have been would be on the FBI list now instead of him. HE is not to blame for these people hating him.
"anne n you say you chose warren as your prophet because his father put him there and you saw him put in that position. how and when did this happen?"
The answer to that question will serve no purpose for you. It is a matter of faith, and belief, and if you do not believe now you won't when I tell you. But I will tell you anyway.
In a 2002 general meeting, Rulon T Jeffs said: "The finger of the Lord has pointed to Rulon T Jeffs, and he will speak to us now."
When Uncle Rulon said those words, he turned to his son, and gestured him to the pulpit.
I understood what he said, but he had a severe stroke in 1998 that kept him from speaking clearly, and I acknowledge God for giving the people a test to see if they would understand.
There is your answer, and please dont argue with me about it, because it won't make you right.
Warren Jeffs had no desire to be the leader, he never once proclaimed himself leader. THAT is what qualified him the most in my mind.
Calling names is very immature Anne. Warren hiself in his tapes told the youth not to call names.
But you are human, maybe you forgot an item or two in the keep sweet effort.
Are you by any chance married to Warren right now? If not, he is missing out on a very devoted helpmate, or at least a wanabe. If you are, when is the last time you were with him? Or even saw him? Or are you one of the ones who are trying desperately to be good enough to be blessed with a baby?
You must not be married to him or you would not have the freedom you so love, especially to be on this blog.
Or are you one of his special helpers who keep tabs on what is being said and reporting to him what goes on. Did you forget to tell him you were writing? Or are you an exception to the rule, one of the "elect"? Don't expect his comforting arms around you for a while. He seems to be buisy right now.
p.s.You can use the internet to look up cults. You don't have to actually GO to a library.
So, every person who gets on the FBI's top ten list by saying "Holy Jesus" and marrying underage girls is the Lord's prophet? This certainly isn't that original of a method for getting on the FBI's top-ten list. Couldn't Warren be a little more original?
OTS You are a sick individual and so, I second the motion by MUG.
By the stench of your rotted fruit you are known. Now, what is done with OLD rotted fruit? It is tossed to the pigs or the compost to be eaten up, made into poop or to decompose and go back to the dust of the earth.
Why don't you report in to the closest Wisan office and find out who's really in charge.
FLDS are ones that heareth the sayings of warren's and doeth them also and so shall they be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Trust not in the arm of flesh lest ye be decieved.
Poop it out OTS or be flushed with the wicked "WARREN"
Anne You are the typical Cricker that is naive and fear driven. I once talked like you,until I became the target of a corupt society and cult the FLDS way. When it is your turn will you come back and let us know how you feel now? Will you be one of the ones trying to get back in favor or will you realize the control they have over you?
I agree with Anonymous who said... "Proof, you want proof. Look what happened to my sister". TBC below
"Probably MJ" Many like her including myself have stories like this. Where was my Mother? Where are the mothers? They should be there to protect the young girls. They should be included in the list of abusers if they are not. Parents should stand up to the FLDS leaders and stop the abuse or be charged for neglect and abuse. WArren should stop using people for his own personal gain and you Mothers and Fathers, wake up. Your leader is a fraud. You are ignorant and naive. Stop your lies in the name of WARREN. You were born with the knowledge of good and evil and you need to start using it. Search your soul and you will find that he "WARREN" is not doing good but evil. Look past what you see and hear and look at the result of his actions. Families are torn apart and broken hearted. People are losing loved ones every day in the name of obedience to his evil ways. Young girls are being raped and having babies before they are adults.
I have lost 2 of my children and many other family members to his deciet. I lived the lie for many years and faithfully, but was turned out when lies/rumor left me out of favor. God bless all those still there to wake up lest you be left by the wayside, unable to fix his heartless comands.
Cont from above... Anonymous said... My sister was forced into a marriage at age 14. She was forced against her will! Forced against her mothers will! Her father was never even told until after the fact.
Then raped repeatedly!
Then when the went to Warren Jeff's for help what was she told... that your husband has every right to rape you! That you are to surrender your body to your husband. This is how lost to all that is right and good this man has become!
Rumors... we are not talking rumors. I've seen first hand how warped and twisted this religion has become.
Jesus of Nazareth said "by their works you shall know them".
Well, what is it going to take before we wake up!
Look at what has happened. Families ripped apart. Children thrown out like the are garbage, as if they were less then human. Girls being forced into marriages. Families being exploited financially for all they are worth. Workers being exploited. Robbery of those who create value to build the mansions of those who have never worked a day in their life! How right can that be!
Fear mongering... How many ends of the world will their be before we finally wake up!
And then being commanded to pray for the destruction of others.
Have we lost all discernment in what is good and holy????
This madness has got to end!
Wake up! There is nothing noble, right, or good about what this religion has become. It is time for this madness to end. But nobody is going to do it for us. It is not until we ourselves say enough is enough. We're not going along with it anymore!
How many of you feel the same way?
5/21/2006 1:38 AM
AMEN
my story is not exactly the same but the heartache is not less. I trust every day that my children left there will see the light and realize that God is love and not what Warren is doing.
Anne, I would love to know what education makes you aware of how/when an abused child's time to tell on his/her abuser is the right time? You should look up stories of abused children. They keep their abuse hidden for years because a child fears they are in the wrong when someone touches them wrong. They are ashamed themselves, when really they should feel no shame at all. A child will feel dirty until they get older and realize they were not in the wrong at all,b ut wronged against. And, often, it takes getting out of a situation and seeing life in a new perspective to even realize they were abused. I was a sexually abused child for 15 years. I did not speak of it to anyone until I was 24 years old. The abuse happened to me from when I was five years old until I was almost 20 years old. There is no right or wrong time for any person that was abused to speak up about it. The right time is when it is right for them. You should not judge those that are abused and question why or when they decided to speak about it. Luckily for you, you were not abused. You ahve no idea what it's like until it has happened to you. Unless you have some formal education in psychological affairs I would refrain from questioning a victim's rhyme or reason.
I think that says a lot. So many from there speak of things they know nothing about. Lack of education is only one reason for not talking, and being narrow minded about every subject is very common for the FLDS. Thank you for that comment. It was so clear and true.
OTS "Story" is right. You weave whole cloth? That is a stupid analogy, but I am sure Warren the CRIMINAL has his story. When you say things like that It makes me think of how it applies to the man you defend. It made as much sense as he does, none. You seem to be so quick to talk retoric. You have woven a mighty wierd cloth of lies and misquotes. Confused is the what I call you. God bless you to have better days ahead, maybe you could get on some meds or something. I know of people that talked like you do and they were helped by meds. Seriously
Thank you for comming forward. May I ask what made you decide to post here on this blog? What will influence others to post as sister, anne n., yourself and others have done? What is it that makes the difference?
One of the greatest tools warren has used on the people was the order to not communicate and compare stories. At the time it was aimed at Sunday after-church-dinner gatherings.
That order was just one of the many things that made me realize that something wasn't just out of place, but SERIOUSLY WRONG.
70 comments:
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If there is any truth to this...the cops being arrested for not cooperating...then it's about time!
LTG
Sounds like some thing P.O.S.T. or DPS might know!
In time I would expect this, the media has already voiced concerns about their safety, if LE is still ansering to a priesthood authority.
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(0- l -0)
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~l-----l~
County Sheriff was on site yesterday and seemed to be incharge. Heard a few names of officers now under investigation, but don't know how many or if all.
why would the stores, and everything be shut down just because the fbi was here? Doesn't add up to me.
It could only happen in CC. I guess the cops had to go out of town to testify and out of town cops were in town. So the whole town shut down, the store, the dairy, the gas station, even the town offices were shut down. Seems like everyone is running scared.
Only in the Creek !!
Anybody catch the story on CNN last night?
I hear they were talking about Paragon and Prism and stalking their employees on jobsites for comments, and said that WJ was the real owners.
I didn't see it myself.
The other day, the fire department got a 911 call. A lady was in her closet with all her little children and told the dispatch "they are here and they are coming to get us" After the dispatch calmed her down, they realized it was someone from out of town knocking on her door.
Sounds like Warren Jeffs has told them the government is coming to get their children and they believe him.
The local therapists said that most of the people have dropped out of their program and they can no longer do house visits
Cult Watch
The Flavor of the present time;
05.18.06Prosecution of polygamists justice not “persecution”Posted in Miscellaneous at 3:00 pm by Rick Ross | Link
As the FBI closes in on Warren Jeffs, the fugitive “prophet” of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS), other polygamist leaders are beginning to sweat and wonder who will be next. One example is Canadian polygamist leader Winston Blackmore, who wants the media to know that his group is “not…like Jeffs” reports ABC News in Canada.
Winston Blackmore, was FLDS bishop
At a press conference Blackmore attempted to put his spin on recent events, speaking from his home in Bountiful, British Columbia.
Rulon Jeffs, the deceased father of Warren Jeffs, once ruled over approximately 10,000 polygamists, primarily located within Arizona, Utah and British Columbia. Blackmore was once one of his “bishops,” ruling over the faithful Canadian faction serving like a feudal lord within the Jeffs kingdom.
But with the death of King Rulon, Blackmore no longer wants to be simply a vassal, so he broke away from Warren Jeffs.
It seems when it comes to the younger Jeffs current status; Blackmore is more than content that the FBI is stalking his enemy.
Winston Blackmore reportedly has 28 wives and about 100 children, but he says “We are not [Jeffs] and he does not represent the fundamentals of our faith.”
Whatever “fundamentals” Blackmore observes they seem to be essentially the same as Jeffs. And the only difference between their communities is largely whose the boss.
Something new has happened in recent years and that is the decisive and growing law enforcement crackdown concerning the criminal behavior of polygamists.
For half a century polygamist leaders pretty much did as they pleased, sexually abusing and exploiting children, violating labor laws, beating up or otherwise brutally punishing those that dared to disobey their edicts and expecting taxpayers outside their communities to pick up much of the tab through welfare and various public funded projects.
However, after years of government neglect the bad behavior of polygamists has caught up with them as reported by the Los Angeles Times.
The early beginnings of what can be seen as a virtual “sea change” amongst government officials from apathy to sympathy regarding the polygamy problem can be traced back to the late 1990s.
Tom Green, a relatively obscure self-styled Utah polygamist with five wives and 25 children, began grand standing and touting his lifestyle on television, through afternoon talk shows and evening magazine programs. In the end Green must have regretted this grab for attention, because it landed him up in prison after a child rape conviction.
Green is currently scheduled for parole in August 2007.
The image of polygamist patriarchs was rapidly changing by the turn of the last century, from the perception that they were somehow strange but honest and pious religious men, to that of wanton child abusers and sex offenders.
In 1998 a 16-year-old girl that fled from the rich and powerful Kingston polygamist group in Utah, after being raped and beaten, testified in open court against her father and an uncle she was forced to marry.
A sordid picture was being brought forth of sanctioned incest, brutal enforcement practices, which shocked the public and the leaders of the Mormon Church. What Mormon leaders in Utah like the proverbial “crazy uncle in the attic” had once tolerated became fodder for the tabloids and focused unwanted attention on their state.
In the fall of 1998 Gordon Hinkley, the President and “prophet” of the Mormon Church spoke out publicly. Though the leader of millions of Mormons acknowledged that polygamy had once been a teaching of the church he denounced it and tacitly stated that polygamists “don’t belong to the church,'’ and not pleased with how such group labeled themselves stated flatly, “There are no Mormon fundamentalists.'’
Senator Orrin Hatch, who at first attempted to describe Jeffs and his minions as “very fine people,” was later pressed to make a public statement against polygamy. ‘’No one should be raping a child … we need to protect our children,'’ Hatch finally said.
However, it should be understood that the so-called “Mormon fundamentalists” have a long history that goes back many decades. The FLDS itself goes back some 60 years in Arizona.
According to popular legend none other than Brigham Young himself once visited what later became FLDS land, then known as Pipe Springs and he beheld its towering Vermilion Cliffs.
“This is the right place [and it] will someday be the head and not the tail of the church [and]…the granaries of the Saints,” Young supposedly said.
But today the place is more like a pain in “the tail” of the Mormon Church.
And since the death of the preeminent polygamist Rulon Jeffs, the land that Young beheld has never been the same. The partriarch begot a sprawling rural religious and commercial empire that crossed state and national boundaries. Jeffs also beget at least 60 children and may have had 75 wives.
Warren Jeffs, on FBI 'Most Wanted' list
But his son Warren is not as wily or wary as the elder ”prophet” was and he failed to keep his father’s legacy intact.
Increasingly, internal community problems within the Jeffs kingdom spilled into the pages of the press. There were forced evictions, lawsuits and investigations and the younger Jeffs seemed fated to be deposed. Today he is a hunted man, forced to flee and live on the lam. Jeffs recently was placed on the FBI’s “Most Wanted” list of criminals with a bounty on his head.
Perhaps this was due to the changing times more than just a single man.
An ill-fated raid on the Arizona polygamist communities some fifty years seemed to insure that they would be left alone. Polygamists and their problems were perceived as a political “tar baby” by state officials as reported by the Los Angeles Times.
But Marshall Trimble, Arizona’s state historian acknowledged, “We are a different society today than in 1953, and [state authorities] could take action without the political risk.”
Too bad for Warren Jeffs.
A seminal statement was made during 2004 by Arizona State legislators that probably marked the no turning back point. ‘’For too long, Arizona has allowed this grave problem to deteriorate. Too many young women have lost their virtue without their consent. Too many young lives have been shattered. Too many witnesses have been ignored. The time has come for Arizona to act,'’ they wrote.
And Arizona Attorney General Terry Goddard was willing to act. '’This issue should unite all Arizonans,'’ he said.
In Utah with the support of the all-powerful Mormon Church, its state officials were likewise willing to move forward there too. An unprecedented cooperation began between the two state attorney generals, which continues today.
Jeffs remains a prime target for Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff’s prosecution of polygamists regarding marriages to underage girls. Shurtleff told the Phoenix New Times, “Once we establish the case and have the evidence, we will charge him.”
Caught between the two top law enforcement officials that held within their jurisdictions his largest groups of followers Jeffs watched as his power was stripped away. His polygamist police, judges and other officials lost their positions. At the same time public funds utilized by the communities was scrutinized and eventually Jeffs assets were frozen.
Polygamists from the Kingston klan in Utah likewise faced withering criminal prosecutions and official scrutiny.
The once mighty and powerful polygamist kingdoms were crumbling.
It’s no wonder that Winston Blackmore wants to preserve what’s left in Canada, considering that his little remnant of the former FLDS empire is worth millions of dollars.
Blackmore recently told the press that he expects to be arrested any day on charges of sexually exploiting girls in Bountiful. “We have one very reliable source that indicates that it will happen,” he said in an e-mail.
The polygamist patriarchs would have the public believe they are being “persecuted.” Not surprisingly the newspaper the Washington Times and wire service United Press International controlled by purported “cult leader” Rev. Sun Myung Moon reported that story.
Whenever ”cult leaders” are questioned about their actions it seems like it isn’t long before allegations of “persecution” surface.
For example Rev. Moon, once convicted for tax fraud made that claim, but the jury didn’t buy it. Interestingly, Orrin Hatch once defended him.
Posing as a concerned taxpayer Blackmore lamented the use of public funds to pursue polygamists. ”A million and a half dollars, [a] five-year run to the Supreme Court of Canada — all when every single person knows, including the RCMP, that it would be a waste of time,” he said.
But if you ask the children that have fled polygamy, it seems doubtful that they would feel the same, especially considering the arrests of their one-time tormentors.
Canada and the United States have a history of protecting religious freedom. The question arising about polygamy and its adherents has legally never been about their right to believe whatever they wish, but rather focused upon their desire to do anything they want in the name of those beliefs.
Polygamists live under the law and the prosecution of polygamists that break the law is not “persecution,” it’s justice.
http://www.cultnews.com/
Makes you wonder who is paying for Rodney Parkers services, the man doesn't work for free!
Salt Lake City Tribune 5-17-06
Court rejects polygamy defense
Utah's chief justice dissents, says state law violates privacy
The Utah Supreme Court rejected a former Hildale police officer's bid to decriminalize polygamy Tuesday, in a historic split decision that wrestles with same-sex unions and the meaning of marriage.
Four of the court's five justices said Rodney Holm's relationship with a 16-year-old ''spiritual wife'' fell ''squarely within the realm of behavior criminalized by our state's bigamy statute.'' The majority added that constitutional protections for religion don't shield polygamists from prosecution.
But in a 37-page dissent, Chief Justice Christine M. Durham said she would have overturned Holm's bigamy conviction, finding the law doesn't apply to relationships that lack a marriage license.
Durham pointed to the increasing number of couples who live together outside the bonds of a traditional marriage, and noted they are not prosecuted.
"While some in society may feel that the institution of marriage is diminished when individuals consciously choose to avoid it," she wrote, "it is generally understood that the state is not entitled to criminally punish its citizens for making such a choice, even if they do so with multiple partners or partners of the same sex."
It took the court just over 15 months to release the 85-page opinion.
Assistant Attorney General Laura Dupaix said the decision ensures the state will continue to enforce laws against bigamy, a third-degree felony, especially when children are involved.
"I assure you there will be [more prosecutions] as we get evidence of underage marriage, welfare fraud, tax fraud," she said. "We are going to continue to go after these crimes. This means polygamists are not going to be able to commit these heinous crimes and shield themselves under the cloak of religion".
Attorney Rodney Parker, who represented Holm in the appeal, said the outcome was disappointing and he will consider an appeal to the U.S. Supreme Court. He said Durham's dissent is a legal landmark.
"In my recollection, this is the first time you see such a scholarly and rigorous analysis of this issue yielding a conclusion that the practice of polygamy should be a constitutionally protected practice among consenting adults," he said.
Purporting to marry: Holm had appealed one bigamy and two sex offense convictions stemming from his "spiritual" marriage in 1998 to 16-year-old Ruth Stubbs, with whom he had two children. At the time, Holm was 32, legally married to Stubbs' sister and had another spiritual wife. All were members of the polygamous Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
State law says a person is guilty of bigamy when, "knowing he has a husband or wife or knowing the other person has a husband or wife, the person purports to marry another person or cohabits with another person."
Holm argued he did not "purport to marry" Stubbs because neither expected to gain the benefits of a legal marriage.
Justice Matthew B. Durrant, writing for the majority, responded that Utah lawmakers did not intend to narrowly define marriage as a state-sanctioned union. There can be no doubt that Holm purported to marry Stubbs, Durrant wrote, citing her white dress, her vows and their life together.
"The crux of marriage in our society, perhaps especially a religious marriage, is not so much the license as the solemnization . . . by which two individuals commit themselves to undertake a marital relationship," Durrant wrote.
Durham disagreed, saying the state interest in marriage does not extend to those who enter informal religious unions. The majority's ruling subjects religious leaders to criminal sanctions for performing ceremonies "that are not intended by anyone involved to have significance beyond the community in which they occur," Durham wrote.
"For example, a minister officiating in a commitment ceremony involving a same-sex couple may now be held in violation of [the law,] (though perhaps only if at least one partner is wearing a white dress)," she wrote.
Assailing the polygamy ban: Attacking the constitutionality of Utah's ban on polygamy, Parker argued Holm should be able to have a legal marriage with a first wife, then enter into religious unions with other women as a way to reach the highest degree of heaven as part of his religion.
Reynolds v. U.S., a famous 1879 U.S. Supreme Court ruling that upheld the prosecution of a religiously motivated Utah polygamist, is a "hollow relic of bygone days" of fear and prejudice, Parker contended.
But Durrant said the U.S. Supreme Court continues to cite that decision and has since said a state statute can restrict an individual's exercise of religion if it is a neutral law that applies to everyone.
The framers of Utah's constitution clearly understood the ban - a condition of statehood - "to mandate the prevention of polygamy and not to merely prohibit government recognition of polygamy," he wrote.
But Durham concluded the ban was meant only as an acknowledgment that polygamous marriages would not be legally recognized. She would find Holm's relationship with Stubbs qualified as an exercise of religion.
Also at issue: the impact of a landmark 2003 U.S. Supreme Court ruling, Lawrence v. Texas, that struck down that state's same-sex sodomy law. It found private, consensual sexual behavior is protected by the due process clause of the 14th amendment.
But Durrant wrote that ruling was limited to private, intimate acts by gays and lesbians. The Utah case hinged on the institution of marriage, which involves both private and public behavior, he said.
Dupaix agreed.
"What the majority points out is marriage is more than just private sexual relationships," she said. "Marriage has always been recognized as an institution the state has an interest in defining."
'Differing from the norms': Rowenna Erickson, co-founder of the Salt Lake City-based Tapestry Against Polygamy, was overjoyed with the ruling.
"Polygamy itself is a breeding ground for other types of abuses," said Erickson, who left the Salt Lake City-area Kingston polygamous clan in 1992. "The more people become educated about polygamy, the more aware they'll become of its diabolical conditions."
Anne Wilde of Principle Voices of Polygamy, a group that supports decriminalization of plural marriage, said she was not surprised by the decision. Pointing out that it took years for blacks, women and gays "to get anything close to equal rights," Wilde said the ruling is a step in the process and hopes the case will go to the U.S. Supreme Court.
"Just recently people have been speaking out in defense of the lifestyle," said Wilde, a widowed plural wife who describes herself as a fundamentalist Mormon.
Salt Lake City civil rights attorney Brian Barnard was pleased that Durham acknowledged the law criminalizes consenting adults who "chose to live in an intimate relationship differing from the norms of the majority."
He and Parker criticized the majority for relying on the century-old Reynolds case. "A majority of the Utah Supreme Court . . . keeps Utah jurisprudence in the 19th century," Barnard said.
A Utah federal judge in 2005 rejected a similar challenge from Barnard to the prohibition on polygamy. Despite the rulings, Barnard said "a thorough and intellectual discussion [about polygamy] is going to have to occur."
The prosecution of Rodney Holm
* Hildale police Officer Rodney Holm was "spiritually" married to 16-year-old Ruth Stubbs in 1998. Then 32, Holm was legally married to Stubbs' sister and had another spiritual wife.
* He was charged in October 2002 with one count of bigamy and two counts of unlawful sexual relations with a 16- or 17-year-old, third-degree felonies.
* A Washington County jury convicted him in August 2003. He was sentenced that October to one year in jail and has since been released.
* Holm's Utah certification as a police officer was revoked after his convictions.
Quotes
"Marital relationships serve as the building blocks of our society. The state must be able to assert some level of control over those relationships for the smooth operation of laws . . . The people of this state have declared monogamy a beneficial marital form and have also declared polygamous relationships harmful."
Justice Matthew B. Durrant,
Writing for the majority
"Any two people can make private pledges to each other, with or without the assistance of a religious official, but these private commitments are not equivalent to marriage absent a license or an adjudication of marriage."
Chief Justice Christine M. Durham
The Holm ruling "probes a particularly sensitive area of our state's identity. No matter how widely known the natural wonders of Utah may become, no matter the extent that our citizens earn acclaim for their achievements, in the public mind Utah will forever be shackled to the practice of polygamy."
Justice Ronald E. Nehring
The FBI in conjunction with the Department of Justice and The Utah Governer have de-certified every officer in CC thus taking away the "marshal and police powers" they once had. The county Sheriff has been instructed to post overtime officers (deputy's) in CC with a new substation in the works.
Here's the article.. They should be back now.
http://kutv.com/local/local_story_138222829.html
``The conflict lies in when they are asked if they are going to uphold the (state) Constitution or are they going to follow the dictates of Warren Jeffs,'' said Townsend, who added that he was aware of the grand jury proceedings. ``Rather than answer the question, they are choosing silence.''
That silence was evident in depositions of Barlow and two other officers taken last month by attorneys representing the court-appointed accountant now in control of the UEP trust.
The officers dodged questions about the disappearance of a grain elevator, a modular building and other equipment from trust property in January. The trust holds most of the property in Colorado City and Hildale, including homes and businesses.
Barlow also failed to answer when asked if he is a Jeffs follower or if he would follow orders from church leaders before upholding the law.
I was there and photographed the elevator being dismantled and provide those pictures to the press. I also noted peticular law enforcement vehicles circling the Mill facility. Personally I am aware that local law enforcement was on site while the elevator was being taken down.
Where is the deniability and with such disregard for the law, these same officers are carrying guns with a lethal potential to cross other lines as well, if defending the religion is required. If you would lie abouth theft, what would they do to obstruct the law or worse bounty hunters coming after their leader who is a fleeing felon?
MIB
Leahy like fly paper on Senator Hatch!
Leahy singles out Hatch on plural marriage
Gets a grilling: '[Hatch] says he knows a number of polygamists in Utah, says they're fine people'
By Robert Gehrke
The Salt Lake Tribune
WASHINGTON - There was no "Big Love" between Sen. Orrin Hatch and Vermont Sen. Patrick Leahy on Thursday, as Hatch angrily denied Leahy's suggestion that Hatch defends polygamists.
Leahy raised Hatch's past comments on the issue of plural marriage during a debate on whether a constitutional amendment aimed at banning same-sex marriage should also prohibit polygamous unions.
The Democrat wondered aloud about the amendment's impact on polygamy.
"[Hatch] says he knows a number of those polygamists in Utah, says they're fine people," Leahy said.
Hatch took exception, saying he hadn't made such statements. But Leahy countered that Hatch has been quoted saying as much in past news reports.
"You don't think they're fine people?" Leahy asked.
"I've met some who are very sincere, but I don't justify it," Hatch said.
"Well, if you know they're out there committing a felony and you haven't reported it, then you . . . ," Leahy began.
"Don't accuse me of wanting polygamy," Hatch snapped.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints publicly disavowed polygamy in 1890 and it was outlawed in Utah at the insistence of the federal government as a condition of statehood.
Under Utah law, plural marriage is a third-degree felony. But breakaway groups continue to practice plural marriage. There are believed to be tens of thousands of polygamists throughout the West.
Warren Jeffs, the leader of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, a polygamous group that split from the Mormon church and set up an enclave on the Utah-Arizona border, was recently added to the FBI's 10 Most Wanted list, prompting renewed national interest in the practice.
Vicky Prunty, executive director of Tapestry Against Polygamy, a support group for women seeking to escape the lifestyle, said Hatch has done nothing to help stop the practice and has declined to meet with her group.
"This has been going on under his nose for decades and he has never taken a strong stand against polygamy when it's been a felony all along," Prunty said. "I don't know what it's going to take for Senator Hatch and others to start
caring for the voiceless citizens of Utah, namely children, whose human and civil rights are being violated."
At a meeting in southern Utah in 2003, Hatch was pressed to take a stand against polygamy, but balked at a hard-line stand.
"I'm not here to justify polygamy," he said at the time. "All I can say is, I know people in Hildale who are polygamists who are very fine people. You come and show me evidence of children being abused there and I'll get involved. Bring the evidence to me."
Asked to elaborate on his view on polygamy Thursday, Hatch said in a statement: "Polygamy is against the law. It's that simple."
"Some of the people who live in polygamous communities are very sincere and are striving to live their religious beliefs. But that doesn't justify what they do. Polygamy is still against the law," he said.
"Nobody, whether they are in a monogamous or polygamous relationship, should
be raping or abusing a child," Hatch said.
The senator said he has also helped secure $750,000 for shelters, legal services, education, and training for women and children who leave polygamist sects.
Like most people with Mormon lineage, Hatch has polygamist ancestry.
His great-great grandfather, Hezekiah Hatch, had four wives, as did the senator's great-grandfather, Jeremiah Hatch, who fathered 30 children and founded the town of Vernal at the direction of Brigham Young.
---
MediaNews reporter Evan Lehman contributed to this report.
WHO IS NEXT? GOT TO CONSULT A IRON CLAD PAPER TRAIL. FOR SENATOR HATCH, ITS NOT A GOOD IDEA TO DENY WHAT HE SAID, AS VIDEO CAMERA'S WERE ROLLING THE NIGHT HE SAID IT. YOU CAN GO FROM KNEE DEEP, TO WAISTE DEEP IN A SINGLE STATEMENT, SO I SUGGEST THE SENATOR LISTENS TO WHAT THE PUBLIC HEARD, BEFORE DENYING SOMETHING WAS SAID.
Well for those historians here, Robert Gehrke wrote that piece today about Leahy & Hatch and was one in the same who wrote and followed the September 2000 lift off in Colorado City. I'd say there was a pattern here, if you know what I mean.
The writers who are following this issue are old veterans and know the history. Likely they already had what MIB was offering. You wouldn't accuse Senator Hatch of misplaced loyalties, without first having both the 2003 transcript and the video of that now famous St. George Town Hall meeting. Since Orrin denied this at first, I am wondering who will get the video feed up first of that meeting.
Its a new word of technology and communications and you can no longer escape your own past. If you interview and have been quoted in the press, you can depend on the them finding that quote.
Imagine if you will what Leahy knew this morning, verses what he will know next week, when the media continues asking him questions??? A Senator in search of answers and I am sure his staff is busy tracking answers down.
the FBI went around town and were going into the stores asking questions and givig sopenas(sp) along with them knocking on doors
who else would shut the door in an FBI agent but a warrenite...So any way the next day all the stores connected to Warren were closed. The grocery store had a sign that said "closed for inventory" which is kind of funny because the lights were out and no one was in there, so I guess they have found ghosts that can inventory in the dark ha ha. The FBI is still haning around so everyone is on edge
nintendo - are you there in town?
"A seminal statement was made during 2004 by Arizona State legislators that probably marked the no turning back point. ‘’For too long, Arizona has allowed this grave problem to deteriorate. Too many young women have lost their virtue without their consent. Too many young lives have been shattered. Too many witnesses have been ignored. The time has come for Arizona to act,'’ they wrote.
THAT IS PRECISELY WHAT HOWARD PILE SAID IN 1953
THIS IS WHAT THE UTAH ASST AG SAID:
"I assure you there will be [more prosecutions] as we get evidence of underage marriage, welfare fraud, tax fraud," she said. "We are going to continue to go after these crimes. This means polygamists are not going to be able to commit these heinous crimes and shield themselves under the cloak of religion".
THIS IS WHAT ORRIN HATCH SAID:
"I'm not here to justify polygamy," he said at the time. "All I can say is, I know people in Hildale who are polygamists who are very fine people. You come and show me evidence of children being abused there and I'll get involved. Bring the evidence to me."
YOU SHEEPLE AMAZE ME!!
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE TO BRING TO THE SENATOR. IT DOESNT EXIST!!
THE REASON WARREN JEFFS IS ON THE 10 MOST WANTED LIST IS BECAUSE OF PUKING RABID PUPPIES, HE IS MORE INNOCENT THAN ANY ONE OF YOU!(Or even me.)
The mentality here is the same that murdered Joseph Smith. GO FIND Mr. Jeffs, kill him. Then after the fact look through all the "evidence" and you will find you murdered an innocent man. Kill all of the men that follow him, and there will be more men raised by the faithful mothers.
This is the same mentality of the people who raided Short Creek in 1953. The same claims of welfare fraud, forced marriage, and slavery. WHERE IS THE PROOF? JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE YELL AND SCREAM THAT THIS IS GOING ON DOESNT PROVE ANYTHING!! THEY ARE LYING!! Do you really think that the only reason that this has never been proven is because of lack of effort? Ask the welfare People, ask the child protective services, ask the AG office, they believe the mob, they just cant seem to find proof, they are even going on the record agreeing with the mob, they just can't seem to find that doggone elusive evidence of wrongdoing.
Rodney Holm was convicted of breaking a law that was created after it was broken. Why did the judge give him the minimum sentence possible? DUH!! Ask Ruth if she wanted Rodney to go to jail. She will say no.
All the UNCONSTITUTIONAL laws that are being broken by the FLDS were created after the fact, just to appease the mob.
The Mob yells "SLAVERY, FORCED MARRIAGE, WELFARE FRAUD, CHILD ABUSE" (And anything else thier vile brains can invent)
YELLING AND SCREAMING IS THE ONLY PROOF THEY HAVE!
The lawmakers hear this and make laws against beeing able to exercise the freedom of religion.
I will prophesy, and tell you all, that the FLDS church will outlast the United States. (That came from me) Because there are mothers who teach their sons and daughters that this is the true religion of heaven.
Sooner or (more likely) later you will all realize that Warren Jeffs is innocent of any crime against any person who ever lived.
2:00
Proof, you want proof. Look what happened to my sister.
My sister was forced into a marriage at age 14. She was forced against her will! Forced against her mothers will! Her father was never even told until after the fact.
Then raped repeatedly!
Then when the went to Warren Jeff's for help what was she told... that your husband has every right to rape you! That you are to surrender your body to your husband. This is how lost to all that is right and good this man has become!
Rumors... we are not talking rumors. I've seen first hand how warped and twisted this religion has become.
Jesus of Nazareth said "by their works you shall know them".
Well, what is it going to take before we wake up!
Look at what has happened. Families ripped apart. Children thrown out like the are garbage, as if they were less then human. Girls being forced into marriages. Families being exploited financially for all they are worth. Workers being exploited. Robbery of those who create value to build the mansions of those who have never worked a day in their life! How right can that be!
Fear mongering... How many ends of the world will their be before we finally wake up!
And then being commanded to pray for the destruction of others.
Have we lost all discernment in what is good and holy????
This madness has got to end!
Wake up! There is nothing noble, right, or good about what this religion has become. It is time for this madness to end. But nobody is going to do it for us. It is not until we ourselves say enough is enough. We're not going along with it anymore!
How many of you feel the same way?
lies, lies, and more lies and you know it too. Why? Do you feel good about yourself?
You should go see a vet.
I only wish they were Anne. I only wish they were!
Wow Anne, I'm suprised and dissappointed.
What do you say when a monther tells a story about losing her daughter.
You told her to go see a Vet?
A Vet?
As a mother yourself, oh forget it, let your actions speak for themselves
I didn't realize women could prophecy
As I understand it - that is an inspired utterance of a prophet viewed as a revelation of divine will.
BTW what is the significance of 2:00?
Lastly, there is no man that is perfect, this is emphatically stated over and over again in the Bible - and I don't believe that D&C or BOM contradict this (is that so?).
Anyhow - that is why we NEED salvation - correct?
There is none without sin - NONE. So, wether some commit more sin than other - that is for NO MAN to know. God is the ONLY one who can forgive the few or the many sins.
So there could be one who commits many sins - and receives much forgiveness, and one who commits little sin - yet asks no forgiveness - NO MAN can judge which is the man who stands in good favor with God (from the outside).
My hair stands up when people call a MAN perfect - what doctrine is this?
Well anne n you said you were done with with us Rabid Puppies.
See Atar_i anne n had compares the apostates to rabid puppies, not on this blog but somewhere else. That is why they said go see a Vet.
And they also said they were leaving this blog for good.
Hmm.....they have trouble telling the truth also.
Imagine that.
PS anne n
Joseph Smith fired the first shots. He wasn't murdered.
yes Anne_n,
there are so many lies
orrin hatch said
"show me the evidence"
...what a lie.
people don't need to show "evidence"
nope
only "reasonable suspicion"
and/or "probable cause"
... don't even need a victim
law enforcement's job is the prosecution of criminals
not retribution for victims
you see
the evidence is HIS job
not ours
when the criminal and judicial system fails
....mob rules
keep sweet eldorado
stg
As far as evidence of wrongdoing, perhaps you haven't been involved in secrecy in a city government level where your boss told you to quit talking so much or you could get him put in jail. I've been there.
Yes the truth will come out, but at what cost?
You could build many houses from the savings from lawyer fees alone. Let alone the freedom from bodily harm or prison.
He may be guilty of breaking laws that have been created just for the very purpose of making him a criminal, but he is innocent of any crime against anyone on the face of the earth. Do you people think that the accusations of abuse, force and fraud are new to the FLDS since Warren Jeffs became the leader? Go and read the newspaper archives, the stories repeat themselves over and over again clear back to Joseph Smith.
It is obvious that he is on the FBI list not because of what he is charged with (performing marriages, fleeing); but he is on there because of screaming rabid puppies. (accusations of abuse, force, and fraud). Is this not obvious?
I admit I have lied. I posted on here again when I said I wouldn't. I apologize. I should do better, and quit reading this garbage, but here I am.
atar_i
That was not her mother.
I AM A LIAR for posting again on here, (I was posting anonymously as 2:00), but definately not of the same class of liar as Flora Jessop, or whoever that is. I happen to know Ruby, and her mother.
Warren Jeffs does not think he is perfect, nor do I, but I think he is as good a man as his father was, and the prophets in the Bible were. I think it an honor to be classed with Jeffs. He has never forced anyone to do anything. You are free to go, and do, whatever you want. The only thing is if you want to be FLDS, you will WANT to seek him, and WANT to listen to him. I know that he wants only the best for everyone.
Nothing can shame me except my own doings. (I am actually kind of ashamed for posting on here, because it has the appearance that what I seek to defend needs my defense, IT DOES NOT) I do not care if you do not like me or my religion, or my leader. I do not seek your approval, or your destruction. I just seek the freedom that was given to me by God, and supposedly given to me by the first amendment.
Anne,
How can you say warren is innocent of everything except the laws that were created *after* he had already acted the way he did.
I only ask, because I know you have absolutely no ability to know that.
You yourself state that you are in 'the crick' - you are not with him. You can state that he hasn't done anything, but unless you've been attached to his side since his birth, went into the mens lavatories with him, lay in his marriage bed, sat in on all his private meetings - there is NO WAY you can know what you say you know.
You believe him to be innocent, based on your experiences with him - and that's ok.
The way you speak, we need no judge, jury, prosecution or defense - you'll do all those jobs based on your limited knowledge of him.
Granted, you have a lot MORE knowledge of him that me, but a lot LESS than FTTC - and he has a completely different opinion of the situation.
Just look at what you say, let your own mouth show you just what you have put your faith in. You are honest about yourself, but be honest WITH yourself - you cannot know what you say you know.
No, dear bloggers, the truth will NOT come out.
Mark my words: Even if Warren is ever brought to trial, you still will never hear the whole truth! It has never come out in the past, nor will it now or in the future.
Argue and speculate all you want about Warren Jeffs. Like Furnace says, there are secrets - many many secrets - only known by very, very few people. A court of law is probably the LAST place you would ever expect to hear the whole truth.
Simon Says
atar_i
Actually I have much more knowledge of him than fttc, I heard him speak many hundred more times than fttc has. I have sat in on private meetings with him many, many times, and he never once deviated from exactly what he said in public. It is plain that fttc is a rabid puppy. He had disputes with both of our two previous leaders as well.
I believe that if you were born where I was born, and raised as I was raised, you would be on my side of this issue, you seem sincere.
mugwump
You seem to know all about it. But all you have heard is the stories of puking rabid puppies.
Your rape claim is putrid. Your source is rabid puppies.
Hunting retreats. Hunting peace and freedom.
He is my prophet because he is and was the most qualified. I heard his father say so with my own ears.
The UEP taxes have always been paid, the non payment now is just a sign of protest.
The faithful have never lost their homes until now. The UEP was set up in the first place to hold land for the faithful to build on. Only the unfaithful were asked off.
Did you know Benny Bistline got his house he now lives in from the FLDS? That same help was offered many other rabid puppies.
Jeffs has made no prophesy of the end of the world on a certain day. The prophesies that you have heard of, I heard from the same place as you. The newspaper.(rabid puppies)
Warren Jeffs, I am sure, mourns for his nephew. I do. I knew Brent when he was a cute little boy. I knew his brother Claine who commited suicide. These fellows were taught one thing by their father, and then later taught the opposite. That lawsuit is so bugus and disgusting it is not even worth mentioning. Why did he wait until Warren became the leader? And why is it in civil and not crimial court? I really honestly feel sorry for Brent. I think he is being taken advantage of by his father and Dan Fischer. Did you know that Dan Fischer and Ward Jeffs both have children who are as brainwashed as I am?
Go figure.
Who is being fooled here.
I apologize for coming here and giving the truth as I and several thousand others see it. I know it ruins all your fun.
I don't expect the truth to come out now, but it will slowly. The wheels of justice grind slow, but they grind excedingly fine.
Maybe they get Mobsters on tax evasion, maybe they will get Warren Jeffs on rape. The point is that the sins they commit are far greater than that...but they have to be stopped with something, so a little log is put in front of a big snowball coming down the hill. It is a little bump, but if we get enough little logs it will be a wall, That should do the job.
We all LOVE Warren Jeffs to his face, just as he loves us to our face.
It's all the things that happen behind our backs the make us MAD.
to ann n.
Continue to support the demon spawn of Satan who goes about doing satins' work of removing the God given agency of the people. and Ripping apart families to feed his own ego. He is a spineless wimp who hides behind women and children.
if he had answered the charges against him he and you would not be in the position you are in know but he cares nothing for you or anyone else, only his own power trip. So pleas continue to support him so that when God gives him his reward you can have an equal portion of those
comforting fires of hell
QuietMan
When I went to Salt Lake with Lawrence Steed and the community band to perform for Uncle Rulon, some of the other students were wispering in hushed tones about the nephews being messed with. There are students from Alta that are now talking that Clayne and Brent confided about being molested. No, these charges did NOT wait until he "became the prophet". Why was Clayne kicked out of the Jeffs school? It was because he shouted through the halls, "Warren molested me and I am going to kill him."
Look at how cults operate if you dare to open your eyes and go to a public library. One very common thing is the leader is sexually deviant, and to cover his sins, he puts on such a good show that he deceives others, and I will dare say, Warren even deceived Uncle Rulon (gasp! Wasn't Rulon a prophet who could discern such things). Warren, by his own voice, said "When I confessed to Father some of my moral sins, that is when I began to get close to him. Young people, confess to your parents your sins; they aren't hidden. We know what you are doing." Sounds to me like a guilt complex over something more serious that a JCPenney lingerie picture. Whenever a person is so damn holy that he is unhumanly holy, he is hiding sexual deviance.
Anne compares Warren to Joseph. Was Joseph Smith innocent? More and more evidence is proving him more and more of a cult leader. Every cult has its "apostates", and the first thing the cult does is try to discredit defectors as rabbid hate-mongers.
Just reconcile the following--
(1) It was actual prophecy that Rulon would live 320 years into the millennium. Now, Heaven's Gate made a similar prophey when Ti dies and Do explains it away as Ti is preparing a place for them and will come back. Sounds similar.
(2) Were Uncle John and Uncle Roy off their rocker when they declared that it was against the laws of God for any man to marry one of his father's wives. If Warren descends from these men, why is he blatantly contradicting his heritage. Uncle Roy declared that any man that will marry one of his father's wives is one of the wickedest men there is.
(3) Just what great virtue have the FLDS done that makes them so damn much holier than all others. Read about cults. That is the beginning of disaster in every cult. It becomes "us righteous them wicked". Once that mentality sets in, the cult goes off the deep end. If Centennial or Winston starts isolating themselves from the world with the attitude of "us righteous them wicked", these groups, too, will go off the deep end. Look at Jonestown, Heaven's Gate, and other cult disasters. The people isolated themselves from the wicked world and took a judgmental attitude "them wicked, us only rightous".
(4) No actual dates on a prophecy, huh. Well SLC was to be destroyed BEFORE the olympics, and we got all excited because of a little wind storm that removed the roof off a building as evidence of SLC being destroyed. Sounds like sign seeking to me, and read what the Jesus said about sign seekers. Everything about Warren reeks of sign seeking from incoherent conjured up revelations to failed propecies.
Anne
I had a leader whom I believed in sincerely. And I'm not saying he was a bad leader, and that he didn't love God - he surely did. But he had some struggles - he was human.
When those struggles were brought to light (he asked for help) some people chose to be disgusted. I personally was not, I got it. My opinion of him, or my beliefs about his sincerity towards God never wavered.
It was incredibly intense having to deal with his struggles publicly - having everyone know the secret he hid for so long. Some do not recover from that, and I do not know if he ever did. I do know that I will always cherish who his was to me, and thank God for his presence in my life as an example and a help.
That said, warren is no different than any other human. We all have secrets, things we struggle with. For some, it's easy to see, others not so easy, or more insulated and protected. And, if they don't want to deal with it, no one might ever know.
I realize that in some situations people choose to make false allegations, but those circumstances are less common. Brent has made specific allegations, and so did his brother - who took his own life. He sounds like a tortured soul.
If, years and years ago, while the boys were still young, allegations were made, and no one listened, and no one acted these boys had no where else to go.
Now, one does, and he went to someone who would listen.
I would like to see this brought out in open court, I would love for you to go watch, and see if you can listen to the facts and the testimonies and let them speak for themselves. Does everyone see something you don't - I guess you will see at the end when a verdict is returned.
False allegations are infinitesmal when compared to declarations of innocence. By percentile alone - it is certainly more probable that warren jeffs is claiming he is innocent - than a young man is making false allegations.
I am just curious...has Brent Jeffs passed a polygraph to see if his allegations are based on the truth?
Just wondering
anne n
I for one would like to compliment you for having the "guts" to come on this blog and take on the masses. I wish there were more FLDS faithful who would get involved in the discussion. An open dialogue would be helpful--to both sides. I'm sure the media misrepresent Warren more than they do him justice. I know that is the case with the FLDS as a whole. The media only prints half of the story at best. But that is because the FLDS will not give their side. It's time for some balance.
I do have one issue for which I would like more clarification, though. You say, "He is my prophet because he is and was the most qualified. I heard his father say so with my own ears."
What are those qualifications? Was he ordained to any priesthood office that would qualify him to sit in his position? If so, what ordination does he have, who performed the ordination, and what witnesses were present. We have this information for ALL of his predecessors, but not for him.
anne n: how is your father Wendell?
who is wendell?
The silence to the question posed by Anon 4:09 is deafening. Not even Street will profer an explanation.
Hmmm
All that quoting and he still didn't answer the question.
Everyone else had a ceremony - did warren have one? - that was the question.
And BTW - the 'you shall know them by their fruit' - probably isn't the greatest scripture to lead off with when you're trying to support warren. Just an FYI.
atar-i: I'm rotflmao! I was just thinking the same thing. "By their fruits ye shall know them." INDEED!!! That's how we all know what warren the fruitcake is!
anne: I believe that if you were born where I was born, and raised as I was raised, you would be on my side of this issue
I WAS. And I'm not on your side of this issue. Because I finally opened my eyes and allowed my brain and my heart to finally tell me what my poor churning guts had been for 4 years: Warren is a FRAUD and he has systematically changed EVERYTHING. Be honest. Look in your heart and listen to your inner voice. You know you have doubts about him but even at this moment you are stifling them in hopes of having your eternal salvation "through Warren". Does this actually make sense? Did God actually command us to rely on the arm of flesh in the form of Warren?
Please, just for your own sake, just THINK about it. You don't even have to reply. Just listen to your still small voice you were taught to from infancy.
No-one but God is the witness--this is cult mentality. Everything about Street's recent response reeks of cult mentality. Refusing to answer with common sense and replying with a barrage of incoherent religious dogma. Cult leaders also believe they are maligned and misrepresented.
My personal view of Jeffs is that God's punishment for pedophilia is a scrambled mind, and I think he sincerely believes his nonsense. Pedophilia is RAMPANT in cult leaders. So is followers thinking they talk to God, as is evidenced by Street's replay that no one but God witnessed the ordination done by God himself. Shake you head, street, that is total cult-mentality. It isn't just Warren.
A continual flippant adolecent take on life and issues of great importance to others.
Get off the blog ots. No one wants to read your garbage. You just waste scroll down time until those of us who read the posts are weary of your hysterical garbage get past your tirades and your general lack of respect for anyone, but your wonderful (your description) of that paragon of Satanism Warren Jeffs.
Goodbye and go to sheol-hades, and take that little homosexual pervert with you. You would make a good pair. You could even form a company "Queers R Us."
rcn
To STREET:
What happened to the basic Article of our Faith, number 5?
Priesthood comes from the laying on of hands. Period. No excuses. Why would Warren ascend to his position in a manner differently than John Taylor, Lorin Woolley, John Y Barlow, Leroy S Johnson? Each of these were ordained to their offices by another human being. We have the dates, and the wording of the ordinations.
Wake up, Street. I have no idea who you are, but you are showing a complete lack of respect for the priesthood that has gone before. This belief that Warren got the priesthood from God himself argues squarely in the face of all Mormon history and tradition. What an insult!
Where are the written FLDS articles?
What do you go by?
How do you know what to believe?
I'm serious - is it just word of mouth or is there anything that is concrete?
If the BOM and Articles are part of it - which version? I mean what version is accepted?
I'm totally confused.
Just how long has that milk and meat been sitting out before you digested it?
Oh Yes!
Uncle Rulon is the last prophet and Warren speaks for Father....(for about a year after Uncle Rulon died.) Now Warren IS the prophet, walking and speaking with GOD. He is AS God to the people.
Huh! What happened to the first theory?
Next!
This blog is proof that all there is is a bunch of hate mongers with skeletons in their own closets believing that proof comes by getting enough people to yell and scream.
Warren Jeffs is the leader of the people who want him for a leader. Everyone else please go away and have a great life!
Why do you try to tell us what to believe? Why do you lie and say he committed a crime against you? You know you are lying. But of course I saying it doesn't prove it, but you know, and we all will answer for our own deeds won't we?
I do not claim to be holier than anyone else on the planet, I just happen to believe that Warren Jeffs is the man who has the authority on earth over me, and he became my leader because his father put him there. I witnessed that. Now you do not have to believe it, and I am in no way trying to get you to believe as I do, I just wish you people would quit blaming him for your own problems.
And you "rescuers" of "victims" please realize that there are few or no victims here. And everything you do to attack Warren Jeffs or any of the other men is not appreciated by any girl here. IF you want to help real victims, help these poor people who are so overwhelmed with hate that they can't see straight. It seems that most of them believe themselves when they blame all their problems on Warren Jeffs.
I believe atar_i would be on my side of this issue because she was sincere in her beliefs. But atar_i your leader was not Warren Jeffs. IF you were to see his sincerity, you too could see these hate mongers lies as plainly as I do. IF you would have gone to school with those two boys you would know that they were never mistreated by Warren Jeffs. I did. My brother was Claine's good friend. I know for a fact that Claine never once made this allegation until after he died. I am appalled beyond belief that his father would say that his only boys who were abused by Warren are Brent and his two dead sons. It is pathetic, I feel sorry for Ward, and his living sons.
If Clayne never made this allegation until Rulon died, why did he get kicked out of Jeffs school after shouting that Warren molested him and he was going to kill him?
He didnt get kicked out. He finished eighth grade. He dropped out. He had two younger brothers and a sister that finished highschool at Alta.
Quote from a SLTrib article:
" Among Jeffs' targets: children of his half brother, Ward. Jeffs apparently considered one of Ward's two wives too free-spirited and her children, who lived in the compound, a bad influence. As an experiment, Jeffs suspended her four children from school for two to three months to see if their absence improved the "spirit" in their classrooms.
"There was nothing extreme to them that would justify keeping them out," said Dan Fischer, Jaleena's father. Fischer met with Rulon Jeffs, who had succeeded Johnson as prophet, and argued the expulsion would psychologically harm the children.
Fischer said Rulon Jeffs turned to Jeffs, asked how long the suspensions would last, and then gave his approval.
One of the suspended children, Brent Jeffs, alleged in a lawsuit filed in July 2004 that when he was 5 or 6, Jeffs and two other uncles repeatedly sodomized him in a bathroom at the school. Brent Jeffs, backed by his father, also alleges the men abused two of his brothers; one brother committed suicide in 2001."
The other "victim" died of a heart attack after the suit was filed. Why was he not named a victim then?
Why did they want back in to the school if they were abused?
Oh Street and Anne,
Your millenium is a sad and woeful thing!!!
If your prophet can't do any better than this the eternal destiny of this earth is a terrifying thing.
The Second Coming of Christ was supposed to happen with NO DOUBT in the mind of EVERY soul on the earth that Christ had arrived with all HIS power and Glory. THAT MEANS EVERY SOUL -- inculding those in darkest Africa. "So every knee shall bend and every soul rejoice."
Your prophet is a pathetic sniveling horror who hides behind women children and young boys.
You are Grim --- and your people will tell on you to this slimy snake prophet.
It sounds like the boys didn't talk to the girls after all. The boys coming out of Jeffs school that are willing to talk tell how these boys made noise about being molested for years, not just after Warren was the "prophet".
I myself, went through some mild molestation by a man who is still the in FLDS. I have made a few rumblings, but nothing serious. I would just as soon leave the man alone and not make an issue of it 25 years later. If that man were to ever think he was the prophet or start ruining other people's lives, I would make a stink about his own past. Isn't it obvious why Brent didn't say too much until now?
anne n you say you chose warren as your prophet because his father put him there and you saw him put in that position. how and when did this happen?
Anne, I was like you, and I probably would have believed exactly as you do - I couldn't imagine doing such things, and the people who taught me to be the way they am - I ASSUME they couldn't possibly be capable of it either.
But, I was wrong.
Many of us were wrong.
It is possible for people you love and respect to struggle with things that we have no knowledge of.
I guess I learned that we are all human, and all capable of sin - despite appearances.
Just as easily as I defend those who look less saintly (because you cannot know the condition of the heart by the outside), and cannot endorse those solely based on position, family ties.
None can know the condition of a mans heart - only God.
I do not endorse Warren Jeffs solely on position and family ties. I had great respect for him when all he was was a volunteer schoolteacher. I could see in him a great love and loyalty even back then.
IF Warren Jeffs had not become the leader of the FLDS, I have no doubt that whomever would have been would be on the FBI list now instead of him. HE is not to blame for these people hating him.
"anne n you say you chose warren as your prophet because his father put him there and you saw him put in that position. how and when did this happen?"
The answer to that question will serve no purpose for you. It is a matter of faith, and belief, and if you do not believe now you won't when I tell you. But I will tell you anyway.
In a 2002 general meeting, Rulon T Jeffs said:
"The finger of the Lord has pointed to Rulon T Jeffs, and he will speak to us now."
When Uncle Rulon said those words, he turned to his son, and gestured him to the pulpit.
I understood what he said, but he had a severe stroke in 1998 that kept him from speaking clearly, and I acknowledge God for giving the people a test to see if they would understand.
There is your answer, and please dont argue with me about it, because it won't make you right.
Warren Jeffs had no desire to be the leader, he never once proclaimed himself leader. THAT is what qualified him the most in my mind.
Calling names is very immature Anne. Warren hiself in his tapes told the youth not to call names.
But you are human, maybe you forgot an item or two in the keep sweet effort.
Are you by any chance married to Warren right now? If not, he is missing out on a very devoted helpmate, or at least a wanabe. If you are, when is the last time you were with him? Or even saw him? Or are you one of the ones who are trying desperately to be good enough to be blessed with a baby?
You must not be married to him or you would not have the freedom you so love, especially to be on this blog.
Or are you one of his special helpers who keep tabs on what is being said and reporting to him what goes on. Did you forget to tell him you were writing? Or are you an exception to the rule, one of the "elect"? Don't expect his comforting arms around you for a while. He seems to be buisy right now.
p.s.You can use the internet to look up cults. You don't have to actually GO to a library.
So, every person who gets on the FBI's top ten list by saying "Holy Jesus" and marrying underage girls is the Lord's prophet? This certainly isn't that original of a method for getting on the FBI's top-ten list. Couldn't Warren be a little more original?
Amen to that Mug.
OTS
You are a sick individual and so,
I second the motion by MUG.
By the stench of your rotted fruit you are known. Now, what is done with OLD rotted fruit? It is tossed to the pigs or the compost to be eaten up, made into poop or to decompose and go back to the dust of the earth.
Why don't you report in to the closest Wisan office and find out who's really in charge.
FLDS are ones that heareth the sayings of warren's and doeth them also and so shall they be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Trust not in the arm of flesh lest ye be decieved.
Poop it out OTS or be flushed with the wicked "WARREN"
Anne
You are the typical Cricker that is naive and fear driven. I once talked like you,until I became the target of a corupt society and cult the FLDS way. When it is your turn will you come back and let us know how you feel now? Will you be one of the ones trying to get back in favor or will you realize the control they have over you?
I agree with
Anonymous who said...
"Proof, you want proof. Look what happened to my sister".
TBC below
"Probably MJ" Many like her including myself have stories like this. Where was my Mother? Where are the mothers? They should be there to protect the young girls. They should be included in the list of abusers if they are not. Parents should stand up to the FLDS leaders and stop the abuse or be charged for neglect and abuse. WArren should stop using people for his own personal gain and you Mothers and Fathers, wake up. Your leader is a fraud. You are ignorant and naive. Stop your lies in the name of WARREN. You were born with the knowledge of good and evil and you need to start using it. Search your soul and you will find that he "WARREN" is not doing good but evil. Look past what you see and hear and look at the result of his actions. Families are torn apart and broken hearted. People are losing loved ones every day in the name of obedience to his evil ways. Young girls are being raped and having babies before they are adults.
I have lost 2 of my children and many other family members to his deciet. I lived the lie for many years and faithfully, but was turned out when lies/rumor left me out of favor. God bless all those still there to wake up lest you be left by the wayside, unable to fix his heartless comands.
Cont from above...
Anonymous said...
My sister was forced into a marriage at age 14. She was forced against her will! Forced against her mothers will! Her father was never even told until after the fact.
Then raped repeatedly!
Then when the went to Warren Jeff's for help what was she told... that your husband has every right to rape you! That you are to surrender your body to your husband. This is how lost to all that is right and good this man has become!
Rumors... we are not talking rumors. I've seen first hand how warped and twisted this religion has become.
Jesus of Nazareth said "by their works you shall know them".
Well, what is it going to take before we wake up!
Look at what has happened. Families ripped apart. Children thrown out like the are garbage, as if they were less then human. Girls being forced into marriages. Families being exploited financially for all they are worth. Workers being exploited. Robbery of those who create value to build the mansions of those who have never worked a day in their life! How right can that be!
Fear mongering... How many ends of the world will their be before we finally wake up!
And then being commanded to pray for the destruction of others.
Have we lost all discernment in what is good and holy????
This madness has got to end!
Wake up! There is nothing noble, right, or good about what this religion has become. It is time for this madness to end. But nobody is going to do it for us. It is not until we ourselves say enough is enough. We're not going along with it anymore!
How many of you feel the same way?
5/21/2006 1:38 AM
AMEN
my story is not exactly the same but the heartache is not less. I trust every day that my children left there will see the light and realize that God is love and not what Warren is doing.
onthestreet you get more asinine by the day.
Anne, I would love to know what education makes you aware of how/when an abused child's time to tell on his/her abuser is the right time? You should look up stories of abused children. They keep their abuse hidden for years because a child fears they are in the wrong when someone touches them wrong. They are ashamed themselves, when really they should feel no shame at all. A child will feel dirty until they get older and realize they were not in the wrong at all,b ut wronged against. And, often, it takes getting out of a situation and seeing life in a new perspective to even realize they were abused. I was a sexually abused child for 15 years. I did not speak of it to anyone until I was 24 years old. The abuse happened to me from when I was five years old until I was almost 20 years old. There is no right or wrong time for any person that was abused to speak up about it. The right time is when it is right for them. You should not judge those that are abused and question why or when they decided to speak about it. Luckily for you, you were not abused. You ahve no idea what it's like until it has happened to you. Unless you have some formal education in psychological affairs I would refrain from questioning a victim's rhyme or reason.
abused as a child
TO:abused as a child
6/13/2006 4:46 PM
I think that says a lot. So many from there speak of things they know nothing about. Lack of education is only one reason for not talking, and being narrow minded about every subject is very common for the FLDS. Thank you for that comment. It was so clear and true.
OTS
"Story" is right. You weave whole cloth? That is a stupid analogy, but I am sure Warren the CRIMINAL has his story. When you say things like that It makes me think of how it applies to the man you defend. It made as much sense as he does, none. You seem to be so quick to talk retoric. You have woven a mighty wierd cloth of lies and misquotes. Confused is the what I call you. God bless you to have better days ahead, maybe you could get on some meds or something. I know of people that talked like you do and they were helped by meds. Seriously
M & L
Thank you for comming forward. May I ask what made you decide to post here on this blog? What will influence others to post as sister, anne n., yourself and others have done? What is it that makes the difference?
One of the greatest tools warren has used on the people was the order to not communicate and compare stories. At the time it was aimed at Sunday after-church-dinner gatherings.
That order was just one of the many things that made me realize that something wasn't just out of place, but SERIOUSLY WRONG.
I don't understand how it is right for Joseph, Roy, Rulon to have services, and now evil for warren.
I don't understand the constantly fluctuating standards.
OTS,
Get your head out of your a**. Actually keep it there. Maybe it will shut you up at some point. Your ramblings and nonsense are assinine.
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