Sunday, May 21, 2006

The Meltdown

Before violence erupts in a society or culture, they must be immoral.
We used to say that will never happen in the Creek, but now...

Check - Got Immorality!

Dads leave, walk away -- the women and children are un protected leaving them vulnerable. Families get bigger and bigger and more children to less adults. Recipe for disaster.
The statistics for sexual abuse across the US is 50% (abused before adulthood). We as a community used to be immune to it, now with Warren Jeffs help, I'm sure it is average. Nobody likes to talk about things they HOPE are not happening or hope never will happen, but this is REALITY.
Is it the religion or is it the culture?

45 comments:

ATAR_i said...

Child abuse and molestation might be cultural.

But when a girl goes to the police, and they tell the pastor instead of making chargs - THAT'S the religion.

Young girls being sexually desired by old men is realitiy.

But when a young girl is given away to an older man by her pastor - THAT'S the religion.

So - now you have a culture when jr. high girls are sleeping with old men and it's encouraged by the pastor. And a culture when copping a feel with your daughter doesn't get you in trouble. NOW YOU HAVE THE CULTURE OF THIS RELIGION.

When you allow abuses and bad practices to go unchecked - you wind up with problems. Problems in the people - who, have been hog tied in every other way except sexually - sexually it's an ACTUAL smorgasborg. Have your daughter, have someone elses, have 20 have 70, (have the little boys in the bathroom as well apparently).

No wonder they are fighting so hard for polygamy - it's all they have left.

Anonymous said...

What EMPTYNESS. . . . . . . .

rcn

ATAR_i said...

Hey question.

I just purchased a copy of the doctrine and the covenants commentary - it's old, but I can't tell how old.

It still has the stuff about plural marriage in section 132 - is that in all the commentaries?

ATAR_i said...

The Bible Corrected by Joseph Smith

I nearly plotz'd when I saw that title for sale at the deseret books auction site

http://deseretbook.com/auctions/show-auction?auction_id=384352

So when LDS faithful state they believe in the Bible - is This the Bible they are talking about?

Anonymous said...

No the LDS church never adopted Smith's "Corrected"Bible they use the King James Version.

Anonymous said...

Checkout this news report- LE camped out at YFZ. Pilot & Sheriff Doran interviewed.
http://cbs11tv.com/video/?id=10000@ktvt.dayport.com

hydrolab said...

i hope everyone makes it ok
really i do

thats all i have to say about that...

ATAR_i said...

Thanks for posting the video article. I'd never seen the photo with all the individuals huddled.

I'm curious why they sell the Bible with JS corrections if it was never adapted.

"With this book, there is no more searching for footnotes or trying to mentally insert the corrections; using bold type and strikethrough, you can see each one of them as you read."

So do Mormons learn certain scriptures in the Bible aren't true?

Anonymous said...

Mormons Article of Faith #8(of 13)

We believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Joseph Smith Wrote the "Articles of Faith."

Anonymous said...

"We believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly.
We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God."


"I believe I'll have another beer"

keep sweet eldorado
stg

Anonymous said...

Atar:

We really don't have a "list" of verses in the Bible that are not translated correctly. In fact, we are much more likely to say that the Bible means EXACTLY what it says, and leave it to the Catholics and Protestants and their "experts" to say that it does not.

A few examples:

The Bible says that we were created in the image of God. The "experts" say "image" does not mean what everybody knows it means.

The Bible says that Jesus Christ is God's Only Begotten Son. The "experts" say begotten does not mean begotten.

Paul wrote that we are the offspring of God. The "experts" would argue otherwise.

The Bible refers to God as having hands, feet, a face, sides, and "back parts", whatever that is. It also refers to Him as male. Are we the only ones left that believe that?

One example of where the JST does clear up a mis-translation: In Hebrews, the Bible appears to state that Melchizidek was "without father, without mother". The JST clarifies that it is not Melchezidek himself, but the Order of Melchizidek (the Priesthood) that is eternal, or without father or mother.

As to why it is not more widely used...The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not own the copyright. I believe that it was the RLDS that did own it, so now it is probably the Community of Christ. But anyhow, we do have the benefeit of it, and the Bible is pretty darn close.

You're welcome. Glad I could help.

Anonymous said...

Wow, you almost sound like a Baptist, except not as educated in the Old Testament.

Anonymous said...

Well, thankya, i guess.

If "educated" means "schooled by the 'experts'", then I plead guilty.

I think I do know what the Old Testament says. You can have your "Bible Scholars".

Anonymous said...

Hey question.

I just purchased a copy of the doctrine and the covenants commentary - it's old, but I can't tell how old.

It still has the stuff about plural marriage in section 132 - is that in all the commentaries?

By ATAR_i, at 5/22/2006 8:14 PM


I would guess that your edition is yesterday's editon.

Anonymous said...

Mormons Article of Faith #8(of 13)

We believe the bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly. We also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

Joseph Smith Wrote the "Articles of Faith."

By Anonymous, at 5/23/2006 1:36 PM


And thus you have Mormonism, as far as it is translated correctly.

Anonymous said...

Reply to Atar_i

So do Mormons learn certain scriptures in the Bible aren't true?

5/23/2006 7:31 AM


Sure looks like they DO!

If it does not suit the Church's purpose at the current time, things can get a bit distorted.

Anonymous said...

Sounds a lot like an older version of The Di Vinci code, touted as truth, but when compared aginst ancient proof texts fails every time.


rcn

Anonymous said...

Mugwump:

That book just recounts all of the old, debunked arguments, and tends to discount both the authors' and your credibility.

The fact that you are so quickly taken in by the anti's and believe literally ANYTHING they say tells more about you than you would wish known.

A genuine copy of Spaulding's manuscript was found in the late 1800's, and you may compare them for yourself.

There have been many similar manuscripts and theories brought forward, which only tends to PROVE the truth of the Book of Mormon and it's value to the world, in that dismissing it is of such great worth to the adversary of us all.

Anonymous said...

Characteristics of Cults
by Janja Lalich and Michael Langone

**Concerted efforts at influence and control lie at the core of cultic groups, programs, and relationships. Many members, former members, and supporters of cults are not fully aware of the extent to which members may be manipulated, exploited, or even abused. The following list of social-structural, social-psychological, and interpersonal behavioral patterns commonly found in cultic environments may help you assess a particular group or relationship.

Compare these patterns to the situation you were in (or in which you, a family member, or friend is currently involved). This list may help you determine if there is cause for concern. Bear in mind that this list is not meant to be a “cult scale,” or a definitive checklist to determine if a specific group is a cult; this is not so much a diagnostic instrument as it is an analytical tool.

The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader, and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law. (this applies)
Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished. (this applies)
Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, or debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s). (warrens tapes)
The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (e.g., members must get permission to date, change jobs, or marry or leaders prescribe what to wear, where to live, whether to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth). (this applies)
The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s), and its members (e.g., the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avataror the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
The group has a polarized, us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society. ( this applies)
The leader is not accountable to any authorities (unlike, for example, teachers, military commanders, or ministers, priests, monks, and rabbis of mainstream religious denominations). ( this applies)
The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (e.g., lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and control members. Often this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group. (this applies)
The group is preoccupied with making money. (this applies)
Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leaveor even consider leaving the group.

!!!Check it out!!!!

Anonymous said...

Home Run with the bases loaded!

rcn

Anonymous said...

I think one key element that got the cult mentality into high gear was when Warren stated that "Father is so holy, he can't stand the presence of a Gentile."

Anonymous said...

Exactly when did he make that statement?

ATAR_i said...

Mary

ATAR_i said...

Every time you make some hideous comment about your version of Gods conditional love (BTW - it's unconditional)

I will simply say Mary.

You found it opportune to come to her defense and stated 'she came in the perfect package'. I would like to bring to your attention that this is diametrically opposed to all your other diatribes on this subject (remember she was a prostitute).

I will say Mary as a reminder that God looks on the heart.

I will say Mary when you purport God's love to be conditional on clothing, ritualism, and external factors.

I will simply say Mary

Anonymous said...

Ever wonder what was so bad about a Samaritan and why it was such a wonderful thing that on of them of all people did a good deed?

To my understanding, they were the "appostates" from the church in those days. Evil, wicked discenters.

Think about it, two 'good' church men hurried past the missery they didn't want to see, hear, or share, while an 'appostate' took the risk of stopping and carring for the injured party. Even spending money on his care and well being.

Anonymous said...

Faithful:

Samaria, a New Testament reference to the residual ten northern tribes of Israel that broke away from Judea following King Soloman's reign, was so named because of it's one time capitol city, Samaria. Samaria (Israel) never had a Godly King, all were idolators.

Samaritan's were despised by the New Testement Jews because they were considered as unclean, of mixed blood, guilty of Worshiping God in Samaria instead of at the Temple in Jerusalem. Samaritians were considered outcasts. The fact that Jesus made a special trip through Samaria, when the normal route would to be to go down to the Jordan or to cross the central highlands route to reach Galilee. It was in Samaria, the town called Sychar, that He encountered the so called "woman at the well" John 4: 1-42. It is because of this example that Jesus himself gave, referencing outcasts as being redeemable, that encourged Paul and others in begining missionary journeys to Europe in the early days of the Christian Church. (not catholic)

nuf sed

ATAR_i said...

Luke 7:47 (Luke 7:36 - 50) Mary

Wherefore I say unto thee, Her sins, which are many, are forgiven; for she loved much: but to whom little is forgiven, the same loveth little

As for the 'perfect package see Luke 7:37 and vs. 39

37. And, behold, a woman in the city, which was a sinner, when she knew that Jesus sat at meat in the Pharisee's house, brought an alabaster box of ointment....

39. Now when the Pharisee which had bidden him saw it, he spake within himself, saying, This man, if he were a prophet, would have known who and what manner of woman this is that toucheth him: for she is a sinner.

Not a perfect package - looked down on by the religious.

She was forgiven BECAUSE SHE LOVED MUCH, not, because she sinned little

ATAR_i said...

No, you despise sinners - you can't even stand the fact that your own prophets make love to their own wives and procreate.

Your stance on this matter is highly hypocritical - to put it mildly.

ATAR_i said...

I'll start at the beginning.

Each woman has special femal organs. A uterus and ovaries. The ovaries have eggs. An egg travels down the fallopian tube from the ovary to the uterus once a month. If the egg remains unfertilized, the uterus flushes the lining and the egg out.

A man has an organ as well as testicles, which contain sperm (or seed).

When a man puts his organ in a woman, he plants his seed inside her. If there is an egg, it might be fertilized and implant itself onto the nutrient rich lining of the uterus.

That, is the beauty of procreation. God created us with these parts, and with the desire to have families. He commanded us to multiply and replenish the earth.

Your prophets have done so, and I don't think they would enjoy being called animals - YOU should stop calling them animals.

I also think it's a good idea not to spy on your prophets with their wives (come out of the closet).

ATAR_i said...

Dogs eat.

and

Dogs sleep

Do FLDS prophets abstain from those activities as well?

furnace said...

Warren teaches that sleep is a tradition of our fathers that we have got to get out of our system. He is preaching that those that work in Zion will work 20 hour days and pray for strength to work more.

I don't know about eating, but I understand that those in Zion are quite underfed.

So, yes, Warren is limiting food and sleep.

ATAR_i said...

Furnace,

You've spent time with this man, do you have any idea why he would ask this of his workers - do you have any kind of read on his personality that could enlighten us to the rationale on these types of restrictions?

furnace said...

My contact with Warren has all been through middlemen. I have reports of under-nourishment at YFZ, but I have never been there.

Anonymous said...

Street, have you seen people that have been to YFZ? They look like photos taken from a war prison camps; they are bony and have aged considerably.

One common feature of cults is sleep deprivation. Another common feature is weird sexual ideas--either direction. Some cults go overboard to have sex orgies. Others go overboard to get sex out of their system. Heaven's Gate, for example, went further than immaculate conception. A number of its members, including the leader, actually castrated themselves.

Anonymous said...

I have a hard time believing the folks at YFZ are starving. When I lived at the Creek every house I went to during the week always had good food and plenty of it.

Anonymous said...

Are you delusional from lack of food and sleep?

Anonymous said...

There are non so blind as THOSE WHO WILL NOT SEE and have IN THEIR OWN MIND CREATED a perfect sphere in which they become their OWN GOD.

rcn

ATAR_i said...

OTS,

Since many of your thoughts appear to be something that FLDS have not heard of, are these new revelations, that perhaps haven't been revealed to others? Are they revelations to you, or to someone else?

ATAR_i said...

Do you have revelations OTS?

Anonymous said...

to anon 6-4-06 8:17

Yes, there has been food aplenty.

That is why it is so strange to see those who went as strong, healthy men on "missions" to YFZ, come back as worn out and gaunt as if they had a severe case of anorexia.

ATAR_i said...

So the men go, and then come back? How long are they usually gone for?

ATAR_i said...

How long the men are gone when they work at YFZ?

And, do the men always come back? Or do they stay sometimes?

If you can answer great - if not, ignore the question.

Anonymous said...

Faithful's observations about men coming back from the YFZ are correct.

But some of the forunate men who get to do errand on the outside the YFZ enjoy eating hamburgers,fries and drinking "sodas."

ATAR_i said...

Don't forget that Christ drank wine - made wine too.

And, he was not raised in a stall - he was born in a barn.

Anonymous said...

Most common I think is a few months.
Most of the worker bees chosen for that "blessing" go to do a specific job and return to home and family when they are done.
Only the very humble and ... you know, I don't know if there is a specified way to decide who stays, just whatever wj decides. Maybe the compound heavy-hands have a say in the matter also since he surely can't be in every compound at the same time.