Monday, May 29, 2006

Anne

I can't seem to find your blog - will you email it to me.

atar_i@hotmail.com

Or - you can just post a response to this, and I can follow the link.

92 comments:

Anonymous said...

Anne's blog is http://hiimannesblog.blogspot.com/

ATAR_i said...

Does anyone know where Anne went?

onthestreet said...

Think about it.

Anonymous said...

onthestreet said...
Think about it.
6/01/2006 7:05 PM


So cryptic.

Anonymous said...

Good try Atar_i and fttc.

Anne n is the another street playing with your time and mind.

ATAR_i said...

anon 7:32 what do you mean?

fttc said...

Yeah, what do you mean? Anne's posts have been very close to what many of the FLDS claim to believe. She sounds very authentic to me. On the other hand Street has posted garbage that completely discredits the FLDS as anything that can be called Christian. He has turned most of the tenets of the FLDS on their head.

onthestreet said...

STREET’s Reply: The weak and the fence-sitters always imbibe false tradition, and this is what Uncle Warren has had to cast out.

Brigham Young said it best: ”Your minds may be divested of false traditions and early impressions that were untrue…This is the same struggle between the false traditions of men and the eternal traditions of heaven…It is the same with religion; but our traditions are such that it is one of the most difficult things in the world…

Brigham Young also said, "People who fight the truth don’t stop fighting it after their death" (Doc. of Sal., Vol. 11, p. 195.) In the Book of Mormon, the prophet Amulek told some repenting apostates, "This life is the time for men to prepare to meet God ... For behold, if ye have procrastinated the day of your repentance even until death, behold ye have become subjected to the spirit of the devil, and he doth seal you his-, therefore, the Spirit of the Lord hath withdrawn from you, and hath no place in you, and the devil hath all power over you and this is the final state of the wicked" (Alma 34:32-35). Alma also said, "The plan of redemption could not be brought about, only on condition of repentance of men in this probationary state of life on earth ..:” (Alma 42:13)

Anonymous said...

I just looked at Anne's blog. She makes a lot more sense than OTS. He sounds like he's nuts and more likely to scare people away from WJ and the FLDS. Anne sounds more rational, though somewhat in denial about some of the things that have happened.

ATAR_i said...

I enjoyed my chats with Anne. She was articulate, educated, passionate and a good communicator. We didn't agree on all, but she was always pleasant and considerate to me.

I wish she hadn't gone.

onthestreet said...

Think about it.

Bee Good said...

Anny. 12:05
Are you sure SHE is the one in denial. I have seen a true un-willingness in the media and the blogs. to believe anything but the negative and the vile of the FLDS people. Why is it so hard for people to see anything positive or worthy? If all you know of the people is what you read or hear, then you have missed a lot. Sure, there are bad examples in every group, but not the whole group.
Two people doing the same thing will not have the same experience based on the experiences of their lives. So, not everyone in a Religion will have the same understanding at the same time.

onthestreet said...

Well put. So right. People speak and act on their own knowledge and experience, so if they themselves are in denial they deny themselves of truth, and of their very life and liberty and happiness. This is why the Lord and His governments must now do what they are doing.

onthestreet said...

I am speaking of the wars, and spying, and the removal of your rights, and even your very franchise, appointing presidents by court order, and natural disasters, and the imminant spread of disease, and forced evacuations, and forced innoculations, and genocide, and endless disaster until the consummation has been completed, because you have supported the slaying of millions of innocent children and the denial of marriage and the birth of other.

What does the Lord say about that? (I Tim. 4):

1. Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2.Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3. Forbidding to marry.

pligchild said...

I have not been here because I feel I am imposing on most of you people's sick enjoyment to blame everything on Warren Jeffs. I will step out of your way so you can have your fun.

Thanks bee good. That is what I have been trying to say all along. Those who are still FLDS (and 9/10 of those who are repenting from afar) have the same outlook as I do. I am not in denial about anything, I just have an inside view.

OTS, were you ever FLDS? And if you were why are you not now? You cannot defend the right by quoting scipture to make personal attacks. I want to see you in heaven as well as myself, but just because some people's brains are in the gutter doesnt mean you or I have to. (Go ahead, blast me, I know, I am here in the gutter)

A quote from Warren Jeffs:

"No matter how right you are, you are wrong if you fight back."

He is a perfect example of "turn the other cheek". I wish I could say the same about me.

I want to apologize to fttc for my blog. I think that last post was a token for me to stop.

Have a great life!

ATAR_i said...

Anne,

My first months on the blog were just like yours - believe it or not.

I don't want you to go - I've really enjoyed seeing things from your perspective.

I'm assuming you're still FLDS faithful, and thus your perspective is rare.

I don't want to offend you, and you are right, I take a lot of unnecessary pot shots are warren without realizing how I might be offending other people on this blog.

I'll really try to tone that down, if it means you will stay.

I think I can speak for a good many people on this blog who would really LOVE for you to stay. I have so many questions - not ones meant to trap, or advance my own opinions, but just plain questions about a different culture that I would am interested to learn more about.

I hope you can feel somewhat more comfortable here, and consider staying.

fttc said...

Anne

There is really no apology needed. I came across as presumptiuos in my final post on your blog. I was really having some fun with you. It was quite apparent that something was wrong and I was looking forward to your response.

That you and I believe in different religions is obvious. I did not mean to offend you or anyone. How you and I can come from the same roots and have such a different perspective on so many issues is very interesting to me. I do not blame warren for everything that has changed. He could do nothing if the people did not want what he had do offer. To say that I am full of bitterness is not a true statement either. I will readily admit that there are those 'sent to repent' by warren that hate him. I am not one of them. I realize he teaches and believes different from what I have been taught and believe. I did not want a part of his program so we went seperate ways. I believe just as strongly that you are deluded as you do me. It pains me to see it and I put my perspective into what I say and do. Why should that offend anyone?

I have asked questions pertaining to the history of our people that the answers to would discredit warren. I have not recieved a satisfactory answer from him or any one of his followers.

The dialogue with you in your blog helped me to understand somewhat more of where you are coming from. I appreciate very much your input here and with Atar, and others I am sure, do not wish you to leave. As Atar said you are a rare perspective on here and could be huge influence on letting people know that not all FLDS are like Street. He has given those who frequent this blog a false idea about who you are. I have in the past posted in defense of the FLDS when things have really gotten rotten with the condemnation. It is not as bad as it looks at first. You said it is too little too late. I disagree. There are many reading this that truly have no idea who and what the FLDS are. Street has so contradicted himself and been so radical that he has lost a lot of credibility if he had any from the start. Still he is about the only one here that will defend warren and he has made the FLDS look pretty bad. It will be an advantage to your cause to have you give some truth about who you are. Already there are those who have seen that you are not uneducated as many seem to be who come on Anonymous in defense of warren. One myth put under already. Keep it up and the truth will become apparent.

pligchild said...

atari your experience on this blog cannot be the same as mine. You came here for the same purpose as most of rest of the people here.

This blog is by the people attacking Warren Jeffs, for the people attacking Warren Jeffs, and of the people attacking Warren Jeffs.

You came here for that same reason, I did not. I know the truth about most of what is going on, YOU do not believe me. YOU only want me to stay so YOU can try to find more ammo to shoot at Warren Jeffs. YOU advocate attacking Orrin Hatch (whom I dont really like either) BECAUSE he said something nice about the FLDS. YOU advocate spying on JNJ BECAUSE they believe as I do. ME being here actually damages my own integrity. I cannot discover the truth here. I can only be pulled into the gutter by being here. I do not advocate arguing, but all I can do here is argue. I feel it as a weakness in me to come here and read this garbage. I have so much improvement to make myself. I want to improve myself, and I want to help others. But you know as well as I do I have not changed your perception of Warren Jeffs. You think rabid puppies (those who hate what they formerly defended)are as credible about the FLDS as I am.

IF THERE IS ANYTHING THAT IS NOT KIND AND JUST AND FREE IT IS NOT SANCTIONED BY WARREN JEFFS. THAT IS "WHY" I BELIEVE. EVERYTHING ELSE IS A LIE!!

To fttc: I think I would become more like street if I were to stay. I can see his frustration. You came here for the same reason as atari. The only "satisfactory" answers to your questions is apostacy. Not that they are true. My religion is not bad at all from my prospective. The only thing bad comes from NOT living it.

TO OTS: I want to apologize to you for the above comments. YOU are free to say whatever you want as far as I am concerned. Your views are definately more credible than most here, but your tactics do not represent the FLDS. (Neither, probably, do mine) The most faithful are those who have the least reason to be here. (Self improvement, MYOB)

Have a great life!

fttc said...

You would be wrong again. The satisfaction I want from the questions I have is the truth. In nearly every instance the questions are answered not with any kind of an explanation but that we must 'just believe'. I had an ardent FLDS once ask me incredulouly why something had to make sense before I could believe it. This is what I meant. If I can't take the teachings that were given by all the former leaders and match them up with what is taught today am I a true fundamentalist? Warren has said that is putting the dead prohpets against the live prophets. I am sorry but no one can change history, not even the prophet. From our beginnings with JS we are only required to follow a man in his position as he follows Christ. In this am I justified.

Anonymous said...

Would like to know what OTS, Anne N, mugawump, and atar_i Think about each point of the following sermon preached in 1998 by Gordon Hinkley of the LDS church.


"More than a century ago God clearly revealed unto His prophet Wilford Woodruff that the practice of plural marriage should be discontinued, which means that it is now against the law of God. Even in countries where civil or religious law allows polygamy, the Church teaches that marriage must be monogamous and does not accept into its membership those practicing plural marriage."

Also what are your opinions of each point in the sermon?

Hinkley Sermon

fundy said...

GBH is as much profit as WJ is. They are both hogs in the wallow. Another words they are both full of hog wash. Gordon B. Huckleberry

fundy said...

Thus saith the almighty federal government to my subject Wilford Woodruff, thou shalt serve me and have no others before me. Thou shall give up polygamy or thou shalt forfiet all thy property and be cast into prison, along with thy other breathern. Come serve me and be my servant. And sell thy soul for gain, and thou shalt prosper in the land.

Anonymous said...

Question for FTTC.
Why can't the FLDS just follow Christ and listen to what the Comforter, the Holy Spirit has to say?

fundy said...

This blog is by the people attacking Warren Jeffs, for the people attacking Warren Jeffs, and of the people attacking Warren Jeffs. says anne

Not true ,, I am a equall opportunity attacker. I think all the profits out there need some mud thrown on them , even Gordon B. Huckleberry.

The big time huckster.

onthestreet said...

Hey, we're all made of clay. It's already on us. Your challenge is to purify your own clay, not to rip it off your bones and throw it at someone else. Then what do you have? Bones (give a dog a bone).

ATAR_i said...

Anne,

I didn't mean to infer that the content of our writing was the same, the the fervency with which we defended our beliefs was met with less than open arms.

When I came to this blog, I knew little about the individuals here, I thought polygamy was an abomination and all individuals who believed in the golden tablets to be fools.

My responses, despite my past experiences, were strong, and I was assured of my 'rightness' on all issues.

I got a few tongue lashings, but I stayed long enough to learn a little something about the people here. And change a bit of my strongly held opinions.

You are a puzzlement to me, and fly in the face of everything I've heard about the women of polygamy (in CC specifically)- which is why I would like you to stay.

I find it comforting to know there are women such as yourself there. I certainly wouldn't come here if each and every post I wrote were dissected and twisted and used as ammunition against the people I cared about.

I think you have represented your beliefs well, and hope that you can offer unique perspectives - basically I hope you stay.

ATAR_i said...

Anon - these are the questions - are you asking why my views are - or my opinions about Hinkleys views?

Question 1: What is the Mormon doctrine of Deity, of God?

Question 2: What is your Church’s attitude toward homosexuality?

Question 3: What is your position on abortion?

Question 4: What is the Church’s position on polygamy?

Question 5: To what do you attribute the growth of the Church?

Question 6: What about spouse and child abuse?

Question 7: How does the Church finance its operations?

Anonymous said...

Anne,

You said: "IF THERE IS ANYTHING THAT IS NOT KIND AND JUST AND FREE IT IS NOT SANCTIONED BY WARREN JEFFS."
and......
"No matter how right you are, you are wrong if you fight back."


Was it "kind and just and free" - not to mention fair - to assign me, a completely submissive and trusting young woman, to a pedophile??

Was I wrong to fight back when my highly-regarded husband was molesting my children?

Please, please, Anne, tell me what you would have done.

fttc said...

Anon 9:14

I am not FLDS so I can't answer your question. It is a good question though and any Mormon Fundamentalist (In spite of GBH they do exist) would do just that.

Anonymous said...

Both your (Atar_i) opinion & viewpoint on the questions.



Anon - these are the questions - are you asking why my views are - or my opinions about Hinkleys views?

Question 1: What is the Mormon doctrine of Deity, of God?

Question 2: What is your Church’s attitude toward homosexuality?

Question 3: What is your position on abortion?

Question 4: What is the Church’s position on polygamy?

Question 5: To what do you attribute the growth of the Church?

Question 6: What about spouse and child abuse?

Question 7: How does the Church finance its operations?

ATAR_i said...

I would have taken my children and been single mindedly intent on making sure that we found a safe place - and nothing, nothing would have stopped me in this pursuit.

ATAR_i said...

Question 1: What is the Mormon doctrine of Deity, of God?

My View I'd have to say the Nicene creed comes closest to my personal views on the diety of God. The one sentence I would remove is 'one holy catholic and apostolic church'. I don't believe God resides with only one denomination, but looks on the hearts of men.

My View on Hinkley View I think it's interesting that the entire church rests on the validity of the glorious first vision.

Question 2: What is your Church’s attitude toward homosexuality?

My View There are any number of sins, mentioned in the Bible, wanting your neighbors wife, coveting what others have, lies, murder, taking the Lords name in vain etc...I believe homosexuality is a sin like that. I do not believe I am a 'better sinner' because my sin is different.

My View on Hinkley View Seems close to mine.

Question 3: What is your position on abortion?

My View I don't think it's right for any man/woman to take the life of another, unless it is to save a life.

My View on Hinkley View He has more allowances than I.

Question 4: What is the Church’s position on polygamy?

My View It's a cultural thing. And in this culture is against the law. I think that should be respected. I don't really think God has a strong opinion one way or the other about how many wives - HE DOES have strong opinions abot respecting/obeying the laws of the land.

My View on Hinkley View He states it shouldn't be practiced because of Woodruff said so 'and so it is the law of God'. Interesting. I can surely see where fundamnetalism came from given that rationale - it just doesn't make sense that one day it's 'God's law' and the next 'it isn't'.

Question 5: To what do you attribute the growth of the Church?

My View I personally think it's the community - when you join - you have instant community - it's enticing, safe, wholesome.

My View on Hinkley View He's probably got more of a handle on it than I do.

Question 6: What about spouse and child abuse?

My View If you hit your wife, you might be able to get your anger under control with counseling and help. If you molest your daughters/sons, the roots are too deep, you can still love God, and pray for his mercy, but you would never live in my house, or be with my children - nor should you be with anyone elses.

My View on Hinkley View He shows no mercy.

Question 7: How does the Church finance its operations?

My View Tithing, fundraisers, smart decisions. I think it's important for pastors/elders to not KNOW who gives what. Favoritism can be a nasty weed, and we are all suceptible.

My View on Hinkley View Do the people in authority know who is tithing - and contact them when they stop or decrease their giving?

pligchild said...

I have to ask myself why? Why do I keep coming back and reading this stuff? What purpose does it accomplish in my life? Do I gain from it? Does it improve me in an way?

The only thing I come here for is curiosity, and I see it as a weakness in me. There are thousands of faithful FLDS women who are much smarter, stronger, and better than me, and they prove it by NOT coming here. There are many, many, who are not FLDS who are better than I, who I believe will be FLDS in the next life. INCLUDING Black people.

I only post this because I want to reply to the abused mother. Anon 10:54:

Quote from Warren Jeffs (quoting Brigham YOung):
"Wives, be submissive to your husband, AS he obeys God"

That means IN AS MUCH AS.

That, to me, does not contradict in any way the do not fight back quote. To not fight back is the same as saying two wrongs DONT make a right.

But to the degree my file leader is doing wrong he ceases to be my file leader, he loses his authority over me, and if there is even a hint of abuse I must leave him and go and find another. It is my DUTY to my children to leave him, and report him to his leader. It is NOT my duty to fight him. There are women who had similar experiences to yours who are still faithful to the FLDS, but their former fathers and husbands were disfellowshipped. AS WAS YOURS. Warren Jeffs is not to blame for your suffering any more than God is.

It is interesting that people blast Warren Jeffs not only for causing women to marry men, but also for taking women from men.

I KNOW that the only purpose in both was to benifit all (especially the innocent) in the greatest way he could.

Now I must tell you, my skin crawls and my blood boils to think that a man would abuse his wife, or his children in any way. I feel like atari said they should die in prison. But I am not the judge, but I trust the great judge, our Father in Heaven, and HE will make everything right in the end.

ATAR_i said...

Anne

So if a woman is in that situation, she contacts her leader, and she is given to another husband.

Can you tell me how that process works. I know I'd be pretty stunned if I was abused, then left a husband, and then received another. How does the FLDS help a woman through that transition?

I'm certain they must have some sort of way to deal with it.

Anonymous said...

Anne,

When a religion takes it upon themselves to rip apart families for cases of abuse, that religion is viewed as a cult. If you want to stay off the FBI's wanted list, turn over abusive husbands to the state and let them deal with it. The government doesn't like vigilateeism or cult mentality.

You despise being called a cult. Read a book called "Deadly Cults--The Crimes of True Believers". In there, you will see so many parallels. The wonderful communal feeling from being in a cult is the same thing that all these other cults experienced. Feeling like their leader was holy was the same thing these other cults experienced. Psychology and peer pressure is a powerful force, and is mistaken as a testimony by people in a cult--even boxers can train themselves to not feel pain during a match. Similar psychology (peer pressure) can get people to do things that those outside of the cult would revolt against in an instant, such as 20 hour days, and be able to do it and train themselves to ignore the fatigue and pain.

Now, is Warren really wanted merely for a few underage marriages? Are Mafia leaders really hunted so hard for tax evasion?

Anonymous said...

Atar:

You ask who knows which Mormons pay tithing, and I do know the answer to that one.

The Bishop of each ward knows about the members of his own ward. The Ward Finacnial Clerk, who provides printouts to the families for their records and tax purposes also has access to the information, and is excommunicated if he divulges the information to anyone. That confidentially is very rarely breached.

Each member comes in for Tithing Settlement with his Bishop at the end of every year and declares himself a full-tithepayer or not. The information does not go "up the ladder" with any names attached.

There is very little pressure from the pulpit or personally to "squeeze" more money out of people.

The reason we pay tithing is not because someone pressures us to do so, but because we have each witnessed the blessings promised in the book of Malachi for those who pay tithing. The promise is real, and still valid.

When other Christians visit our meetings, they are very surprised by the lack of talk about money, coming from churches who talk about it A LOT.

ATAR_i said...

When I was younger, a leader of our church noticed a slight drop in tithing from a member. He approached that member who had begun tithing off the net, and not the gross of his paycheck - he was chastised.

I had never considered that our leadership would be going over each persons contributions with that much interest.

I'm glad that your church has that separation - I believe that is important.

Anonymous said...

Anne,

Thank you for your response. I believe in more ways than one we are sisters, you and I. Please do not feel that your curiosity puts you at some disadvantage or at cross purposes. Oft have I felt the same on this blog. You may think you gain nothing from it, but I know I gain little seeds of perception in subtle but significant ways and perhaps you do too. For instance, here we are, you and I, speaking of our experiences and feelings regarding our FLDS lives.

I do believe that if there is a God, s/he knows my heart and knows it is a good heart. I no longer believe I will go to Hell. Like you said, if I am to be judged, I am content it will be a far greater judge than any living being we have ever known.

You responded as though I blame Warren. I certainly do not. He is but a microscopic pinpoint in the bigger picture. My allegience and faith does not reside in the arm of flesh. Bitterness nor anger have never been part of my personality. A flaw perhaps?

I did not - nor could I - go the route you suggested which is based on correct principle as taught by our fathers and forefathers. I knew well it was the "correct" route, but my file leader's file leader would have nothing to do with me without the presence of my "faithful" husband. No way. He was so absolutely and highly regarded by his leading brethren that in spite of my well-established faithfulness and obedience to correct principle, it finally dawned on me there was nothing I could do or say that would be even remotely convincing or accepted. I was just a weak woman. I was appalled. I was betrayed. I was literally isolated and trapped. So I did the only thing I could do which was precisely what Atar_i said she would have done in the same circumstance.

Actually, for nearly a year before escaping with my children, I did contemplate one other choice: suicide. Before I could execute that plan, my maternal and survival instincts kicked in and we escaped to the other side of the mountain, so to speak.

But Anne, please tell me: do you know for a fact that my husband was "disfellowshipped" as you put it?

There is much more I could both ask and tell, but will desist for now. I truly appreciate your candor.

Sister

mugwump said...

Ever since my first postings on this blog I have repeatedly suggested that it is not the mainstream of the community of this particular brand of religion that pulls the strings. The priesthood is a bunch of "good old boys" who have learned from their predecessors that they had better all hang together or get hung separately, to quote Ben Franklin.

It is through their arrogance and conceit that those of you who do not qualify for their elite group are treated as sub-human and worth no more than your gifts to the church, or whatever you call FLDS. The dollars you send to them, unqualified and unaccountable, are the only thing of value that you are capable of producing, in their estimation.

They control the purse stings therefore, those who remain in their good graces receive favors while those who, for some unknown or imagined reason, are not considered worthy of those things that benefit the whole.

Intentionally, I have pulled no punches. I have been lambasted, cursed, threatened with hell fire and damnation for my even expressing to you that there may be a better way than that which you are headed. Your leadership has blinded your eyes to truth, on purpose. The choice is yours. I wish you well.

ATAR_i said...

Dear Sister and Anne,

Your words explain so much - I have truly learned from you both.

I am too verbose for my own good, I should just sit back and listen more often.

I think as women we have a perspective unique to our gender on many issues. I truly appreciate having more women like you gals on this blog.

miraclesandlove said...

I am also a woman that did much the same thing that

Sister described in her last entry.
6/05/2006 7:36 PM

I agree with everything she said and feel her story inside of me when she talks.


I was intelligent, outgoing, honest, hard working, intuitive, happy, and industrious, a good neighbor, an obedient wife, a mother of 8, at that time, and the backbone of the family. It is so hard to have a husband that lives, eats and breaths the power of men. It mattered not what he did, he was a man. There were many times I had no resources to feed or care for my family without my own earnings and working 20 hours a day. There was no shame for him in that I carried most of the load. There was no man in the community that saw him for the way he was. They were "men"! I was a women and no amount of hard work and obedience gave me anything of respect from the men or the women of the community. I once went to the home of my BEST friend (her husband took much better care of her) in town and told her some to the things I felt. I told her that I was strictly obedient and still got blamed for everything. She told me that maybe I should not discuss any of it and just obey quietly. I always tried to communicate what I felt and only got told I should just be sweet no matter what. When my children started to become rebellious then I was taken into see the "Prophet". My husband asked him to comment on what could be done to help the upcoming children avoid such behavior. My 14 year old daughter was with me and at the time very obedient to the FLDS faith. The "Prophet" said “Show me a rebellious child and I will show you a rebellious mother. The children answer to the Mother and the Father to the Key holder and if the children see the Mother in disobedience they follow the mother". I went home and felt like a terrible mother and yet knew that I had done nothing wrong. A few months later I was taken back to see the "Prophet" to be instructed in the way a good women should be and instead told all the family secrets of how he had neglected us and how he abused us (physically-emotionally- sexually-verbally). I spent over an hour talking about it to him and in the end he sat there for about 5 minutes before saying “Go home and start over. Start from today and obey your husband. If you want to you could even get re- married and re-baptized together to start fresh". I asked if I had done something that warranted re- baptism and he said "NO". It would only be for starting over". I did not want to start over. I did not want to be married to that man. I felt horrible. I went home and wanted to die. I prayed to die. I went from a size 12 dress to a size 6 in 2 months. I lay in my bed and only got up to take care of very basic needs of my children. While laying there I endured the devastation of having my children turned against me and come into my room and tell me they were ashamed of me. They had been told by their Father, teachers and fiend's mothers that I was not a good person. One of my daughters even said that she couldn't have picked me for a mother when she was in heaven because she would never have picked someone like me. That was when I realized the abuse they were suffering at the hands of the FLDS and got up for the love of my children. I finally became able to get out of bed and start over. I had for years known there was something wrong with the teachings, but dared not to speak it to anyone. I felt it in my heart- spirit and only became harder on myself when I question them inside. I felt that maybe I was the bad one and that God didn't love me. I went to my husband and asked him what I could do to improve and become worthy of being lifted up. He said that if I did not know by now then I was raised wrong and knew nothing of the Gospel. He said the end times were so close that the "Prophet" had told us there was not time to repent.

The things I went through are so many and yet I love all of those people very much. I have seen the light of following my own conscience and knowing the happiness of obeying what I know is God's way. I know that they are people stuck in the teaching they were given and do not DARE to lift their eyes to God. I am not affiliated with any church and yet have been blessed by God in many, many way since I moved away. After my husband kicked me out ,for being a non believer, he came to me and told me that since I had turned my back on God that now my life would be much harder because God would turn his back on me. How wrong he was. I have a wonderful life. I experience the same everyday ups and downs that all humans do, but I have food in my house, a new car, loving people in my life, happy children, and many more blessing too many to number. I know that until I looked for God, he was unable to bless me. Like Jesus said they new him not, I did not know God only FLDS leaders opinion of God. Thank you my ex, who should have been "disfellowshipped" for the abuses he put upon me and my children. You gave me my freedom and all the blessings of God followed. During the time I laid in my bed wanting to die, I saw an angle watching over me. I thought she was a dream until one day I was not sleeping and saw her. I know that dying would have been the worst thing I could have done. Thanks to a loving God I was preserved to see my children escape the persecutions and grow to wonderful adults. The only children of mine that are still struggling are the ones still stuck in the FLDS past and present.

I am so happy to be able to hear the stories of other women that have come out of there and feel good about it. WE are sisters.

With all my love and devotion I leave you with this little story about my last days there. It seems so long ago. I have forgiven. But I will not forget

Miracles and Love

Anonymous said...

Anne, what was so wrong with Leroy Jeffs and Allen Steed, Those men raised their families well and treated their wives very well. They supported King warren as good as any man every has. What did they do wrong???

ATAR_i said...

Miracles and Love,

I am so happy that you and your family are well.

sister said...

Miracles and Love,

Thank you so much for sharing your poignant story. It's such a good feeling knowing I have sisters and soulmates out there. Wouldn't it be lovely if we could get together someday, throw our arms around each other and share more of our experiences?

Sister

onthestreet said...

M & L Said (6/08/2006 6:28 PM):

After my husband kicked me out ,for being a non believer… Thank you my ex…You gave me my freedom and all the blessings of God followed. I have forgiven. But I will not forget.


STREET’s Reply: WAIT! That could never have happened! The FLDS imprison girls, and they are NOT ALLOWED to leave. So you were NOT kicked out. Either that, or every FLDS critic who ever spoke is now a proven LIAR, nor have you forgiven. To forgive is to forget, back to the condition as if it never happened. And who know, maybe it never did (as you describe it): After all, you yourself said that not only your husband, but even your children turned on you. Okay now, be honest. What you hiding? What really were you doing, or not doing?

For one thing, you admit going to bed and only seeing to “bare necessities”, as you put it. Well, that’s not very dutiful, nor is it sweet. You also said: “I did not want to be married to that man”. Well, that’s telling. Was he neglecting your sexual needs? Don’t know. I can’t judge you. But whenever a woman leaves a dutiful and caring husband, one who the children prefer to be with, something’s going on. You also said: “I prayed to die”. The Lord says: “The wicked will call for the mountains to fall upon them, and seek death”. Only the righteous have the spirit of life in them. So, a little soul searching even now is good, yes?

You say: “I finally became able to get out of bed and start over. I had for years known there was something wrong with the teachings…” What exactly? Have you figured that out yet, even at this late day?

I ask this, because you say: “Yet I love all of those people very much”. See??? You say they are wrong, and yet you love them ALL very much”. That means you love what is wrong, by your own confession. Either that, or there were serious things wrong with YOU, which is very likely, since you say you “HATED YOURSELF”, but “LOVE THEM very much”. See? There were things you didn’t like about YOURSELF, but loved about them VERY MUCH.

You also said: “The only children of mine that are still struggling are the ones still stuck in the FLDS past and present”. That is the Work of God, the STRUGGLE upward, and the Work of the Devil to “finally be at ease”, as you put it. As long as there is evil in the world, saints will struggle, and the wicked will take pleasure.

What we need to do is what Uncle Roy told us to do decades ago: “Get your thinking straight”.

Anonymous said...

Get out of town street....You are so obnoxious!

onthestreet said...

ANNE Said: OTS, were you ever FLDS? And if you were why are you not now? You cannot defend the right by quoting scipture to make personal attacks. I want to see you in heaven as well as myself, but just because some people's brains are in the gutter doesnt mean you or I have to. (Go ahead, blast me, I know, I am here in the gutter) A quote from Warren Jeffs: "No matter how right you are, you are wrong if you fight back."


STREET’s Reply: Born and raised, but asked to “not attend” for awhile, for a purpose wise in the Lord, and in my humble opinion also because of my weaknesses, NOT Warren’s. Now I can do what the castoffs have done, and take offense, and create in my mind and the minds of others numerous crimes that he has committed, even if Christ-like he is the most innocent man alive to day, which he is. Or, I can accept the TRUTH, that I had personal weaknesses that HAD TO be addressed, even from afar.

As far as my “tactics” go, I try to stay with the Lord and His Word, which is often MIGHT rough around the edges, even personal attacks, the calling of men “dogs” and “dung”, which in that days was the same as “shi!, and our very Redeemer saying things like:

34. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.


Every true Prophet is BLUNT, and Uncle Rulon was often well-noted as being “BLUNT”. It does us well to try to be like unto the Prophets. Uncle Warren is right, in saying that: "No matter how right you are, you are wrong if you fight back." This is true within Priesthood families, but you see sister, in the world saints MUST fight. Many time, the Prophet fought back in the courts, and Ephesians 6:

12. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

You see, the Prophets have also warned that “women are often overzealous in spiritual matters”. I believe this comes from Joseph the Prophet. But as for you, I consider you just right, and you are right that it would be well for you to say little here, as you have been doing quite admirably. You are a fair model of our dear sisters at home, with Uncle Warren.

onthestreet said...

FTTC Said:

I have asked questions pertaining to the history of our people that the answers to would discredit warren. I have not recieved a satisfactory answer from him or any one of his followers.

STREET's Reply: Okay FTTC, ask your favorite, one or two at max. No need for us to go running off into another brainstorm of perceived abuses, right. Just one or two of your most agregious.

It was probably answered before, and quite fully, but butting personalities often reject any sight of it. No matter. What's your greatest concern? I will be glad to give you the answer you have requested.

onthestreet said...

Oh, and one more thing: You said:

Street has so contradicted himself and been so radical that he has lost a lot of credibility if he had any from the start. Still he is about the only one here that will defend warren and he has made the FLDS look pretty bad. It will be an advantage to your cause to have you give some truth about who you are.

MY Reply: In what way? Name one or two max, where I made the FLDS Church look bad, if you can. Oftentimes, we get so worked up over a blunt and honest man like Warren, that we completely reject all truth, even when we profess to seek it.

If I made you look really bad because the Word of God completely contracted most of the things that people are saying here, then if that is "radical", we glory in being so "radical". Christ was called a "radical".

onthestreet said...

You see, if Anne has not "given some truth about who we are" at this point in time, then it is not truth at all that you seek, but something entirely opposite. If you having been FLDS, do not know some "truth about who we are", then the Lord has referred to that as a "seared conscience".

onthestreet said...

FTTC Said: I had an ardent FLDS once ask me incredulouly why something had to make sense before I could believe it. This is what I meant. If I can't take the teachings that were given by all the former leaders and match them up with what is taught today am I a true fundamentalist? Warren has said that is putting the dead prohpets against the live prophets. I am sorry but no one can change history, not even the prophet. From our beginnings with JS we are only required to follow a man in his position as he follows Christ. In this am I justified. 6/03/2006 11:08 AM

STREET's Reply: FAITH IS FUNDAMENTAL. "Without faith, it is impossible to please God". That is the very beginning of the Gospel of Christ. So he follows Christ. No justification otherwise.

onthestreet said...

You see, a newborn child has absolute implicit faith in its mother. Yet, the child cannot what you call "take the teachings that were given by all the former leaders and match them up with what is taught today". Yet, is the child not fundamental? Just as fundamental as one can possible get, "for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven".

onthestreet said...

NONNY Said (6/05/2006 7:36 PM

You responded as though I blame Warren. I certainly do not. He is but a microscopic pinpoint in the bigger picture. My allegience and faith does not reside in the arm of flesh… Actually, for nearly a year before escaping with my children, I did contemplate one other choice: suicide.


STREET’s Reply: The Prophet of God, that man who has God in him literally, is not the “arm of flesh”. Put not your trust in your own arm”. Throughout scripture, this is what the Lord has advised against, trusting in yourself in rejecting the Lord in the earth, and trusting only yourself. That man who has God in him is the ENTIRE picture, the forest, and you cannot see the forest for the trees. Proof? Suicide is PROOF of blindness, not being able to see clearly. Even considering it is PROOF of blindness.


Anonymous said (6/05/2006 2:52 PM):
Anne, When a religion takes it upon themselves to rip apart families for cases of abuse, that religion is viewed as a cult. If you want to stay off the FBI's wanted list, turn over abusive husbands to the state and let them deal with it. The government doesn't like vigilateeism or cult mentality (Matthew 10):

34. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.


Anonymous said...
Get out of town street....You are so obnoxious!
6/09/2006 4:21 AM

Street’s Reply: That is good. Mission accomplished. If the truth upsets the apple cart, that is good. If it is not truth, then it could not upset you. Only truth upsets bad apples.

ATAR_i said...

OTS, do you consider that you might be a prophet?

furnace said...

One common line of reasoning I see in some of the apologetic arguments, street included, goes like this:

"Warren is obviously not a molester because I know someone he hasn't molested."

Or,

"... is lying; I know of a similar case where the prophet did the exact opposite of what ... posted, so obviously they are lying."

Sorry, I don't buy that line of reasoning.

miraclesandlove said...

Anne,

When you talk you defend Warren and the FLDS. I hear what you say and remember defending it also. Some times I would defend the wrongs and yet my heart knew they were wrong. Below is an example of how you defend him and how my heart tells me he is wrong. I do not fault you but only reflect with you on this.
You said “It is interesting that people blast Warren Jeffs not only for causing women to marry men, but also for taking women from men”.
My view on that is as follows.

Warren marries a woman to a man (usually one she does not know) and children are born. Then he takes the woman from him. The children love him (or don't. some men are so distant from the children) but he gives the woman to another man that only marries her because he is told to. He does not want to take care of another man's children nor can most men love another’s children like his own. He would dare not pass on the marriage proposal if asked to marry her by Warren. (My father was one of those men. He admitted to me before he died that he only married because the key holder asked him to and that he did not want to do it.) The children are made to take the last name of that man, leave their given name off and call him Father as well. Then Warren takes the woman from that man and also his other wives and children too. He then marries the women to other men and the saga continues. The victims are the innocent children that know not who they should love or call Father. They are taught to be faithful only to Warren’s commands. He damages their hearts and confuses them. That is so sad because women and children are used for Warren's gain. Women have wanted to stay married to the original husband they had and been asked leave while other women want to be released and marry another man and are asked to leave also. Children have born in them a natural love for the father and mother that put life in them. He destroys that love and rips families and hearts apart and there is no God that approves.
I pray you keep writing on this blog because you have a good heart and I would like to keep writing to you.
With love
M & L

Sister

My heart is wrapped around you even though I do not know you. Yes, we are sisters and God made us so in more ways than one. We may have come from opposite sides of the track, but not so different. Until if ever we meet you are in my prayers.
With love
M & L

Atar_i
It took a while to find my way, but my success comes from God and the love he has for me. Thank you for your support

Also
OTS has all the signs of a self made prophet. Maybe he was Warren’s rival for wanting to hold the Keys, or it may have been a sexual weakness he took on trying to be like Warren. . Oh, that would have been a mistake for OTS. All the sex is the FLDS is dictated by Warren. Who knows, but it makes a thinking person wonder doesn't it?

M & L



OTS

To write the longest reply to you seem like a
You sound like one of my son-in laws, literally. You praise Warren when he has abused you. Repentance is a correct principle, right? Warren believes there is not repentance. I did not make that up but heard it from Warren's mouth. If you ever get back in you will only be worthy of being a servant in the eyes of Warren. You cannot go to the highest degree of glory if he has said you won't. If you uphold his teachings then he is your judge in heaven. Are you willing to let a mortal self made God dictate your fate? I once read a scripture that went something similar to this. Trust not in the arm of flesh lest ye be deceived, and if you trust any man completely, you will be deceived. I do not quote scripture exactly. In order for anyone to understand scripture they must look past the letter of the law and embrace the spirit of it.
Whoever you are and what ever weakness you have now or ever had, do not make Warren's action right. He is known by his works and the fruits he offers his people.
You quoted Uncle Roy as saying “Get your thinking straight”. Now practice what he preached. To me your thinking reflects the evil dictated by the standard FLDS way of life. It does not reflect the works of Jesus and what he offered to his people.
Also
You say only truth upsets bad apples. I believe that both good and evil are upset by truth and by lies. There is nothing that dictates who gets upset and if they are good or evil. Why would God who is good be upset at the evil of Satan who wanted all God’s children to come to earth and be made to obey God, and not be just as upset about Warren using the same plan Satan proposed? Truth upsets God and he is good. Truth also upsets evil people because truth does not serve evil purposes. Warren has a "seared conscience", he gets upset at the truth and creates evil. He uses truth to manipulate and hurt others. He gets upset at evil only when it does not serve him best. He loves evil when it does. He comes as and angle of light but is not one. Do you see how ignorant of a statement you made when you say “only truth upsets bad apples”? It is possible and even probable that Warren is mentally ill. That explains his evil doings. Should he get on meds he might even become good. Warren seems so pleasant when he talks and yet Ted Bundy was a very pleasant person and smart also. He was also a serial killer and when no one was looking came to young woman as an angle, but snuffed out their lives and loved it. Warren has snuffed out the souls of many.

As for your reflection on my entry dated (6/08/2006 6:28 PM):

I shall reply soon. I have much to do today and might have to find time on the weekend to expound. I have truth to tell.

M & L

miraclesandlove said...

OTS

You wrote "The Prophet of God, that man who has God in him literally, is not the “arm of flesh”. Put not your trust in your own arm”. Throughout scripture, this is what the Lord has advised against, trusting in yourself in rejecting the Lord in the earth, and trusting only yourself. That man who has God in him is the ENTIRE picture, the forest, and you cannot see the forest for the trees. Proof? Suicide is PROOF of blindness, not being able to see clearly. Even considering it is PROOF of blindness".



As for the propet being the one man that has God in him you talk as if no one else has God in them. God does not reside in a man, but all of man have God in them because we are his creation and children. We all have the right to ask of God and have him give up personal revelation for ourselves. When going to one man considered to be God on earth you are putting you trust in the arm of flesh. Uncle Roy use to say that he did not want the people to worship hem as he was only a a man. He said to take everything he said and square it up with the scriptures of don't believe it. he also said that he was only ther to council a person. He very often left it up to individual to go home and pray and get an anwer for themselves before taking his counsel as truth. I was personally present and heard those things preached and said but things are different and changed when men wanting power started to twist the truth for personal gain. The Barlows. Jeffs. Mussers, Timpsons, Hammons,Jessops and more all wanted things to go in their favor and that is what stoped the spirit of brotherhood and tore them apart. Polygamy did not bring about the current state of the FLDS but men like Warren.
People are now blind and cannot see the forest for the trees as you put it because they do not use the rights they have to trust in God and not their own arm or the arm of a false prophet like Warren. It sounds to me like you may be one of the people raised in such a closed way of thinking that you also cut off your nose to spite your face.
May God bless you with the truth.

M & L

miraclesandlove said...

OTS

We finally can use the same quote however not to the same reference. I believe we differ on almost all points. I caution you to make sure you are not the one divested of false traditions and early impressions that were untrue. You said "Brigham Young said it best:”Your minds may be divested of false traditions and early impressions that were untrue…This is the same struggle between the false traditions of men and the eternal traditions of heaven…It is the same with religion; but our traditions are such that it is one of the most difficult things in the world…".



OTS
Behold, if you procrastinate the day of your repentance even until death, behold you become subject to the spirit of the devil, and he shall seal you his-, therefore, the Spirit of the Lord may have already withdrawn from you, and have no place in you, and the devil may have all power over you. This is the final state of the wicked is it not? As Uncle Roy use to say “As long as there is life there is hope" so it is not too late.

Much like the statement" come out of her oh ye my people and be not partakers of her sins" I use to think that meant traditions of the world like Christmas, Halloween, appearance of clothing, smoking and more but have come to realize the greatest sin of all in the world is when one turn against another and judges them as if they are GOD. As Jesus said “Let ye who are without sin cast the first stone". We should be minding to our own lives and love one another. I do not have to agree with you to love you nor you with me. I do not have to forget your wrongful acts to forgive you. Christ also taught to forgive seven times seven and let God be the judge. To forget would be wrong if gaining knowledge is our mission here on earth. Uncle Roy once said that if a man takes advantage of you once it is his fault and if he does it twice it is yours for letting him. In order to not be taken advantage of twice you cannot forget. There is another quote from back when things were better.
No one ever said there is no good in the FLDS and or Warren, only that the wrongs should be stopped. Just because there is much good the wrong cannot be ignored. I am not bitter nor do I profess to be perfect. But I do know when I see abuse I cannot be complacent with it or I am a fault for not doing something about it. Evil is what happens when good people do nothing.

Defending it is a step closer to owning it.

Assisting in evil at another’s request is to me owning it.

Ordering it done and not assisting in executing it owns it also.
There are many ways to be partakers of her sins.

Like the structure of a house, the studs hold up the roof, so are the men or women who uphold wrong doing. Only when they are taken action to stop it or not assist does it leave evil without support. The FLDS people are like that to Warren. He could not commit the crimes he does without the support of the people and how is he going to get their support? By teaching false traditions and using early impressions that are untrue to deceive them.

Something to think about HUH!

miraclesandlove said...

Anne

I do not believe that women are any more overzealous that men. Saying little or saying a lot changes little in being overzealous or not. A person can be quiet and never talk and still be overzealous in something and a person can dive in and execute something with preciseness and not be overzealous. For OTS to say that you should say little here is only again the standard of the FLDS men thinking that God made them superior beings. I hope you are reading this even if you do not comment.


OTS:

Your remarks/advise is very condescending and egotistical. I believe that for Anne to comment at all while still FLDS is quite admirable. She may be a fair model of the sisters with “Uncle Warren”, but there is much good in her heart in spite of that and I pray God will give her the strength to make the best choice for herself without feeling wrong or out of line for having a say just because she is women.

M & L

miraclesandlove said...

TO ALL


More reflection on this in the future but for now may the Good Lord bless and keep you till we talk again.

M & L

onthestreet said...

SATAN AS AN ANGEL OF LIGHT.

onthestreet said...

ATAR_i said (6/09/2006 7:18 AM):
OTS, do you consider that you might be a prophet?


M & L Said (6/09/2006 4:04 PM):
OTS has all the signs of a self made prophet. Maybe he was Warren’s rival for wanting to hold the Keys, or it may have been a sexual weakness he took on trying to be like Warren. . Oh, that would have been a mistake for OTS. All the sex is the FLDS is dictated by Warren. Who knows, but it makes a thinking person wonder doesn't it? You praise Warren when he has abused you. Repentance is a correct principle, right? Warren believes there is not repentance. I did not make that up but heard it from Warren's mouth.


STREET’s Reply: How can one cast off by the True Prophet, like the LDC Church was and all others, be a prophet, except they be truly rogue and self-proclaimed. “There is one man at a time on whom these powers are conferred”, says the Lord, referring to the sealing power and the leadership position. I praise Warren for NOT abusing me, or any other, and he is right: There is NO REPENTENCE after a certain point, saith the Lord, who specifically referrs to the “sin unto death” (I John 5):

1.If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

2.All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

3.We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

4.And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.

(Romans 6):

14. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

15. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

17. But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18.Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

YOUR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING DOESN’T MAKE OTHERS WRONG. IT ONLY MAKES YOU WRONG.

onthestreet said...

M & L Said (6/09/2006 4:04 PM): If you ever get back in you will only be worthy of being a servant in the eyes of Warren. You cannot go to the highest degree of glory if he has said you won't. If you uphold his teachings then he is your judge in heaven. Are you willing to let a mortal self made God dictate your fate? I once read a scripture that went something similar to this. Trust not in the arm of flesh lest ye be deceived, and if you trust any man completely, you will be deceived. I do not quote scripture exactly. In order for anyone to understand scripture they must look past the letter of the law and embrace the spirit of it. Whoever you are and what ever weakness you have now or ever had, do not make Warren's action right. He is known by his works and the fruits he offers his people.

STREET’s Reply: What you mean, if I “ever get back in”. I’m already back, doing the work God has now for me to do. And to be “only” a servant of the Prophet Warren is the ultimate, and the highest. God Himself is a servant of His Father, and even serves man and devils with every needful thing. So for you to say the you “do not quote scripture exactly” is a gross understatement. Yes, the Prophet Warren is my eternal judge, and yours, and I glory in that, not “looking past the law” as you propose, but living unto its fulfillment and its spirit. My actions do not make the Prophet’s actions right, for they are right regardless, and his glorious fruits. We don’t trust man, but God in the man. Did not Christ say: “I shall be IN YOU, and YOU IN ME. This is both literal and esoteric, and every plane in between.

Your deceptions are obvious, and especially with such lies as this: “Both good and evil are upset by truth and by lies. There is nothing that dictates who gets upset and if they are good or evil…Truth upsets God” (end-quote).

Does anyone else on this planet really believe that “truth upsets God”, that “good is upset by truth”, or that nothing dictates who is upset, and if they are good or evil? The evil that is in anyone dictates them being upset, and whether they are good or evil. Nothing difficult about that. So you are obviously very confused, since you are very upset. SEE? That confuses you, and then you go and make stupid and false comments like that.

(6/09/2006 5:32 PM): You also said: “I caution you to make sure you are not the one divested of false traditions”. What! “MAKE SURE YOU’RE NOT DIVESTED OF FALSE TRADITIONS”? That’s the very thing that ALL PEOPLE want to be divested of. You also said: “We should be minding to our own lives and love one another. I do not have to agree with you to love you nor you with me. I do not have to forget your wrongful acts to forgive you.” There you go, mind your business and love us, and receive your own healing, for you have obviously been hurt by being caught in something that caused you to be handled by the Lord. In order to have that healing, you MUST forgive BY FORGETTING. Look at the Lord’s Prayer:

“FORGIVE us our trespasses…and GIVE us this day”. Do you see it, brother? Do you see it? Once you foregive, then it is given unto you. In other words, you GET. Put the two together, and you have FORGET.

You also said: “No one ever said there is no good in the FLDS and or Warren”. Do you see it? By your own confession, they are good. Good and evil cannot drive a person simultaneously, for either they serve one master or the other (Luke 16):

12 - And if ye have not been faithful in that which is another man's, who shall give you that which is your own?

13 - No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

I was going to respond to the rest of your posts, but no need. Everyone can plainly see that you are certainly confused, and just very upset. Hey, we’ll all pray for you, that you might one day be healed. Warren heals.

ATAR_i said...

So OTS, you do not consider yourself a prophet - because there is only one right?

But you were cast off at one time - correct?

Have you committed a 'sin unto death' or are you able to repent?

Are you able to go to the 'highest level of his glory'?

miraclesandlove said...

OTS
Back at you buddy,
YOUR LACK OF UNDERSTANDING DOESN’T MAKE me WRONG. IT ONLY MAKES YOU look uneducated and brainwashed.

You are the one confused about me. I am not upset at all, that is your opinion of me. I do not agree with much if anything you wrote. God is very upset with the truth about Warren’s EVILS. and his works clearly show that. Look at reality. It’s not as scary as they have told you it is. There is nothing you can say that will get me to see him as any kind of God or God in a man ruler. It does not make any sense and you appear very ignorant almost to the point of an idiot when professing his position on earth. I have nothing to fear. I know my works and my heart and so does God. Warren needs not come between the real God and me. Thank the true and only God that Warren will not be my judge. Let him be yours if you want him to. He does not care about you and yes the real God teaches repentance. Are you a son of perdition? The original “Priesthood” told us that being a son of perdition was the only unforgivable sin. By following Warren you turn your back on God. Oh do you remember when Uncle Roy and Uncle Fred taught with hope, love, patience, long suffering and charity? Warren teaches thing with fear and he has changed all the original teaching of the FLDS. God is unchanging and constant; there is the evidence of Warren’s delusional ways. Also, just look at all the false prophesies his puts out and all the pain he causes innocent children. Jesus would cast him out of the Temple for he knows him not.

There is nothing you can say that will help you to look good or better than I. Quoting scripture does not become you well. You dwell on the thing you feel you can argue, (AGAIN I SAY) what about the truth of the things I said? Uncle Roy, Uncle Rich, Uncle Fred, lived different and taught different doctrine than Warren does. Now is God is unchanging then Warren is not of God. Answered that if you can. I remember lots of things. You skirt the real issues and take everything back to Warren and he is not everything. When you respond you talk in riddles. Warren has no more of God in him than I do. Are you so na├»ve that you cannot see how many people do both good and evil in this world? Where were you raised? Oh yes, it was in the FLDS… that right, face it, Warren uses good words and works to bring about his evil works and hurts Gods innocent children. He is a chameleon sheepherder and you his sheep.
I hope you are able to get away from the brainwashing and one day you can feel the great pleasure of KNOWING you are out from under Warrens spell. I am sure that at this time in your life you cannot comprehend it, nor even want it, but I shall pray for you to be enlightened by the real God and not the "God in man" pagan God that you follow.

I feel that talking to you is like eating ipecac and so much of it makes me sick to my stomach. I hope to find others I enjoy conversing with and leave you with yourself and WARREN, your mind made GOD.

M & L

Anonymous said...

Warren is definitely a god; his atomic number is 50.

ATAR_i said...

???

miraclesandlove said...

What does and atomic number have to do with being a God?

Anonymous said...

No-one able to handle a riddle, huh? Tin has an atomic number of 50, and Warren is a tin god.

Faithful Woman said...

So nice to read your post M&L

ATAR_i said...

So warren is a 50 year old god? I still don't get it.

Please enlighten me - be specific, it's late and I haven't had coffee in hours.

feralfem said...

I think Warren's age is just coincidence. The anonymous poster 5:52 was referring to the Periodic Table of Elements.

Each element has an atomic number which reflects the number of protons (electrical charge) in the nucleus of an atom. The atomic number for tin (Sn) is 50.

Then... there is an idiomatic saying, "little tin god" which means:
someone who behaves as if they are more important or powerful than they really are

Therefore, Warren really is a god - a little tin god.

::whew!::
Atar_i, I hope you got a good cup of coffee while you were waiting. ;-)

ATAR_i said...

LOL - thank you so much!

Oh....I got lost in the public records of Mohave County Arizona and Washington County Utah (some interesting stuff).

But I was in a bookstore today, the smell of coffee was intoxicating. I smelled as if they ground up 50 lbs of coffee when I was there - I am telling you - INTOXICATING!

onthestreet said...

Poor Atari: She would have to drink the dredge out of a cup with that atomic number 50.

However, it is very honest of you to admit that you smelled, and that you are intoxicated. Sometimes it might be wise for you not to reveal too much about yourself, okay sister?

Actually, I'm just playing with your typo there, having fun teasing my little sister. But that kind of thing is only fun for me, if you're also having fun, and learning right along with everyone else, with a varitable and virtual SMOOOOOCH.

onthestreet said...

ATAR_i said (6/10/2006 8:29 AM):
So OTS, you do not consider yourself a prophet - because there is only one right? But you were cast off at one time - correct?
Have you committed a 'sin unto death' or are you able to repent?
Are you able to go to the 'highest level of his glory'?


STREET's Reply: Only one man at a time on the earth who holds these keys. Yes, we are able to repent. Everyone is, but it comes too late if it is only on your death-bed, or beyond a set time, see?

ATAR_i said...

So what does that mean for you? Are you worried it will come to late? How do you ensure that you are back in the fold before the set time?

Anonymous said...

So, which "one-man" is it? John Timpson, Art Bulla, Gordon Hinkley, Warren Jeffs & Rulon's ghost (what we were told at first--sure blows a hole in the one-man-rule), the Pope, the Kingson leader? I'll tell you who the one man is in my life--it is my OWN CONSCIENCE. I don't need some pious minister telling me right is wrong and wrong is right and obfuscating the gospel. I know theft is wrong. I know adultery is wrong. I know judging others over nits and taking their family is wrong. I know Uncle Roy at Carl Holm's funeral very pointedly talked about not even he has the right to judge other men. Then where the !@#$%^&*() did warren get the right to start judging? Even to the point of family breakups? Whenever any group starts promoting "one-man", I say "there goes a religion heading toward a cult like a bunch of lemmings."

onthestreet said...

Which one man? "Ye shall know them by their fruits":

Which man brings forth more children into the world, the fruit of the loin?

Which man disciplines the people the most, the fruit of the mind?

Which man is the most blunt in holding to the truth, the fruit of the heart, even to the point of offending the rascals of society?

Which man displays the most courage and valour, a fruit of the spirit, even to the point of continuing to marry young girls AFTER a Federal indictment for that very thing?

There are many fruits spoken of by Christ and his Prophets, by which you many know, which have been fully enumerated, leaving the whole world without excuse.

Uncle Ratt said...

OTS, Paul tells us in Corinthians that "they will believe a lie and be damned." If you believe Warren Jeffs is a man chosen by God to lead his people you definitely have believed a lie and according to Paul YOU ARE DAMNED. I hope you enjoy your reward that is waiting for you in Satan's realm (YFZ).

onthestreet said...

Ahh, but who dat? Who's "They"? As for reward, I am enjoying quite the opposite of Satan's rewards even now, a peace within me, and a love for you, and a motivation to serve God and keep all of his commandments. So by the fruits we are known.

Uncle Ratt said...

OTS,
Hey, Streetless, let's get this all on one blog. Let's call it the chess game. You scare me when you say you love me. Is that because I have just taken your Queen? And I didn't nee Warren's help.

onthestreet said...

Well, I'll just peet, peet, and re-peet what I said on your Chess thread:

Amen, Shi!less. Actually, I guess you have plenty of that. It's just constantly being pooped. I guess when you rub it on your chess or your privates (what one would call your pawns), to try and get one or two hairs to grow, and make yourself a real man's man, that's where the stench has been coming from. All that mating, see? Then it is CHECK-MATE. You're all done for, see? No more manliness. You just go all limp like a wimp, and all the kings horses, and all the king's men, cannot put humpy back together again.

6/16/2006 3:46 PM

ATAR_i said...

The fruits (how you will know them)

Love
Joy
Peace
Patience
Kindness
Goodness

Are these just fruits that are supposed to be displayed to 'the faithful', or are these fruits to be displayed to 'thy neighbor' (meaning people you come into contact with). People who visit your city, people who are on this blog, just people.

That questions was rhetorical - these fruits are witnessed by 'thy neighbor' - meaning the men who ride into your town on bicycles, news reporters, gentiles, apostates, bloggers.

And love your neighbor, as yourself.

onthestreet said...

ATAR_i (6/16/2006 8:03 PM):

Christ answers your question. You consider Him an authority, don’t you, even the ultimate authority? Okay, and what does He say?

1.“Who is thy neighbor? He who attends to the wounds of him who falls among thieves and is stripped”. The FLDS in CC have fallen among thieves and been stripped of every house and all their property, and their very freedoms as citizens. Yet, you do like the priests and levites, and continually try to wound them further, and then to pour salt into those wounds. Is that Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness…?

2.Now, as for your first question, displaying these fruits to the faithful (Mt. 10):



34. Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

36. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.

37. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.


Is that neighborly? Would you blame your Redeemer of lacking Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness…? Yet, Christ says it, the ultimate authority, according to your own confession.


38. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

39. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

40. He that receiveth you receiveth me, and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

41. He that receiveth a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward; and he that receiveth a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward.

42. And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.


Meanwhile, the saints at the YFZ mind their business, pay hundreds of thousands of dollars into the local gentile coffers, and avoid upsetting the balance of power in the voting booth, even though they could, and do not speak against the wickedness of their neighbors. Is that Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Goodness?

ATAR_i said...

Interesting that you should bring up MATTHEW 10.

A consequence of the malice of wicked men, breaking up the ties of relationship.

In a word, Christ fortells that the world will come to such a state of confusion, that all the bonds of kindred will be treated with indifference, and humanity will be no longer regarded.

He does not mean that this will uniformly take place, (as certain fretful persons foolishly imagine that it will be impossible for them to be good disciples without forsaking parents, children and wives).

On the contrary, every lawful bond of union is confirmed by unity of faith: only Christ warns his followers, that when it does happen, they must not be alarmed.

My family is still together, close and loving - How about yours?

ATAR_i said...

Ousted FLDS dads stuck with aching stigma

http://www.sltrib.com/search/ci_3938871#

onthestreet said...

TAR Said (6/17/2006 5:35 PM):
In a word, Christ fortells that the world will come to such a state of confusion… He does not mean that this will uniformly take place, (as certain fretful persons foolishly imagine that it will be impossible for them to be good disciples without forsaking parents, children and wives).On the contrary, every lawful bond of union is confirmed by unity of faith: only Christ warns his followers, that when it does happen, they must not be alarmed. My family is still together, close and loving - How about yours?


STREET’s Reply: Yours “till death do you part”; Mine, “for time and all eternity”. Big difference. As for the state of the world, yes, Christ means that this will UNIFORMLY take place:

Rev. 12:9 – “And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world”. THE WHOLE WORLD is pretty uniform, just as uniform as you can get. Yet, you blast your Redeemer as “fretful and foolish” for saying so. Furthermore, what does your Lord specifically say regarding the forsaking of parents?

Mt. 10:35 – “For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

Luke 14:33: "So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple."

Yes, honor thy father and thy mother…But “who is my mother, and who are my brethren”, saith the Lord?

Mt. 12:47. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49. And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

50. For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

onthestreet said...

If you or yours violate any of the commandments or scriptures, you violate the whole, and therefore "doeth not the will of my Father". Therefore, your relations are severed, in time and eternity, and your assumed unity is but a fantasy.

Remember, "The whole world shall be deceived".

Anonymous said...

You speak for once with some small amount of truth.

Remember, "The whole world shall be deceived".

That would include YOU.

In some way or another everyone is decieved. For most of the FLDS it comes from within, and Warren is not the exception. He also is of the world and decieved. SAd and yet true.

onthestreet said...

"My kingdom is not of this world". Only the world are deceived, not the Kingdom of God upon the earth, for said kingdom is not of this world. “Ye shall know them by their fruits”, saith the Lord. All of the fruits of body, mind, soul, and spirit, are present with him, as I have outlined in many posts. Here, let me show you again:

Don’t you know that a tenth is tens? It is all ten. That is the least the Lord will accept: EVERYTHING. A tenth of the Tree is 100% of all earthly things, and we are commanded to “sacrifice all earthly things” to the control of the Lord and His Prophet, having all things in common. Then, you can be more than a little purple pansis. You can be a sunbeam for Jesus. Atari in another post only named only five of the fruits of the Spirit named by Paul to the Galacians (5:22), by which they shall be known. This includes faith, “against which there is NO LAW”, says the Lord.

Spirit: Love, Joy, Peace, Longsuffering, Gentleness, Goodness, Faith, Meekness, Temperance.

Now, let’s seer in depth, and get a glimpse of it, and see if the Prophet and God’s Elect possess these gifts by which the true Church of God SHALL BE KNOWN. See, without all ten of them, “the full armour of Christ”, you sever your link to this Spirit, which is the crown, the King of all (Eno-ching). That comes first, and to sin against that is unforgivable. Then, there are the other nine, the fruits of this Spirit. Let us start with the Crown, the Spirit:

1. Spirit (Enoch): Grace, Crown: “Owb”: Father’s Name. “Akatakritos”: Without trial or law, uncondemned.
“Mowadah”: God’s purpose, congragation, appointed place.
“Nitzbah”: Firmness, to be expelled, desolate.

The women make up the crown. The many wives are the spikes or the tribes of the crown, and the glory of the man (Proverbs 12:4): “A virtuous woman is a crown to her husband: but she that maketh ashamed is as rottenness in his bones”. This is why the Prophet casts such out of the Kingdom.

I Cor. 11:7: “Forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.


Do you see it, the fruit by which this man is known to be true and faithful? Who cares for more women in all the earth, than Warren Jeffs, in making sure that they can fulfill the true measure of their creation, according to their very nature and privilege, which every saintly woman cried out for unto God.

“She washed His feet with the crown of her head”. See, the footstool is joined with the crown, the earth with the heavens, by the sweeping and cleansing process. “For the crown of the anointing oil of his God is upon him” (Lev. 21:12-14). “From the soul of his feet to the crown of his head” (2 Sam. 14:25).

Now, does he have God’s spirit? Although “the things of God can only be known by the Spirit of God”, the true seeker possesses a measure of that spirit and can find out beyond any doubt, by reviewing the language, the original Bible language: Spirit is “mowadah”, meaning “God’s purpose, congregation, and appointed place”.

Who upon this earth has a congregation and spirit and appointed place with more purpose, faith, and determination in the face of all the world notwithstanding, Yearning For Zion, including the building of a House unto God and a City unto God, than this man and his people, even to the point of excluding all the world and its influences, in order to abide the pure and full law of God.

That Law includes the fruits of the body: “letting the children come”, and the fruits of the mind which are discipline, learning, action, will, readiness, mindfulness, soundness, fervence, lowliness, and oneness. Also, the fruits of the heart or soul, which include truth, judgement, mercy, thoughts (Gen. 6:5), laughter (Gen. 17:17), integrity (Gen. 20:5), gladness (Ex. 4:14), hardness (Ex. 4:21), plagues (Ex. 9:14), willingness (Ex. 35:5, vs will and willfulness), stirring (Ex. 35:21), courage.

There is no other leader or people on this planet who have done all of this in our generation, not one, with such courage, stirrings, willingness, plagues or hardness in the minds of many, and with such gladness, integrity, laughter or joy, thought, mercy, judgement, and truth.

There are also the fruit of the loom (shorts), and I the Lord shall cut my work SHORT. And this post being quite long, I will cut my work short for another time, for there are many more fruits that are obvious in this people, by which God’s Church may be know by the honest in heart. None other, for the things of God are understood only by the Spirit of God. All else are destitute, and now they begin to suffer the wrath of God upon the earth, in wars and storms and plagues, and numerous other judgements by God and by His ministers of government, until the consummation that is decreed in the heavens.

In another post, I will innumerate many other fruits by which they are known.

Anonymous said...

Wrong move, OTS.
Check!

onthestreet said...

Okay, you hand me the check for that fine meal. Now, pay up.