Tuesday, December 20, 2005

Bruce Griffen does his job?

An anonymous poster brought this to our attention. Griffen is proposing that the anti-polygamy laws in Arizona be done away with. Anonymous says the perverts are cheering. Anyone who has followed this blog knows where I come down on this. Where do you stand?

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2005/Dec-15-Thu-2005/news/4795608.html

60 comments:

Anonymous said...

If a person can honorably take care of two or more families, more power to them, but if they "bleed-the-beast" to support their families, well, something needs to be done.

Merycia said...

The anti-polygamy laws do not protect people, they harm people. There are many welfare users who are abusers and that is an issue that the government needs to address with welfare in general. If anti-polygamy laws are abolished, then plural families can be recognized as a whole, and handled in the same way every other family is handled. Qualifications, restrictions, requirements, etc., would apply across the board.

Anonymous said...

well said merycia

Merycia said...

Hold on, Arizona doesn't have anti-polygamy laws. Arizona's bigamy statute is clear in that it only applies to individuals who have more than one marriage license. The child bigamy statute that is worded similar to Utah's would be the only law that comes close to being anti-polygamy. It's the Constitutional prohibition that Griffin is taking aim at, and I'm not sure how meaningful that is, considering these cases are sexual misconduct cases where minors are involved.

What he's really putting to the test is whether or not sexual misconduct applies if the parties involved are "married", and the court will likely say that if there is no legal license, there is no marriage, and therefore the conduct is not protected by marriage.

Even so, if it is true as reported that this particular defendant is charged with "rape", then there is no marital protection for that anyway, and the argument is moot.

I don't think it's surprising that the defense lawyer is pressing this strategy, especially when the FLDS have doggedly asserted their "right" to continue marrying underage girls. Under those circumstances there is nothing that can be done but to put that assertion to the test and see where it goes. The state isn't going to stand for it, and now they have a chance to see how it will play out.

I'm especially curious to see how this goes since Arizona's laws are different from Utah's, and Arizona is not charging bigamy in these cases, so the cases are specifically focused on sexual misconduct, rather targeting the "polygamy".

Anonymous said...

You're pretty good at that, Merycia. Are you a lawyer, or do you just play one on TV?

ogre said...

Because some (not all) polygamist familys rely on state assistance for all the "single mothers" collecting all kinds of benefits, what would happen if polygamy was legal? Would the state save money if the welfare dried up? Also, would polygamist believing people start limiting their family sizes?

THe ag's of the various states are correct. Go after the sickos marrying young girls and those engaging in welfare fraud.
The polygamy is a non issue, because prosecuting the act itself sucessfully would probably open the way to prosecuting adulterers and homosexuals, or anyone in a non-traditional, state sanctioned marriage.
People tend to be all for a law until it hits home.

Anonymous said...

This "Bleeding the Beast"must and shall end.Underage polygamy must also cease.I care not how many spouses are in a marriage,provided all are of age.No state government has time or resources to enforce anti-polygamy laws,any more than anti-adultery laws.

Anonymous said...

When taken in context of "present time" bigamy, polygamy, and adultry all fall into the same category, one's individual understanding of moral behavior. All parties hold equal responsibility.

However, the giving of or taking of the innocence of a child, male or female, is and should be considered a carnal act with intent of completion for lustful gratification and therefore should be considered a crime of equal culpability as is murder.

Anonymous said...

It's bad.

Really bad.

But murder is worse.

Anonymous said...

12/21 4:11 PM

If you weren't sexually abused as a child what makes you think yourself an expert on degrees of guilt?

onthestreet said...

Are you saying you have to be sexually abused to understand something? (12/21/2005 8:31 PM)

Anonymous said...

Can you come back from being murdered? How then can you compare the fact that murder is worse than being an abused child? Do you not think that at least the dead child experiences peace whereas the abused child is continually haunted by their experience?

ATAR_i said...

If, by some strange happening the law did recognize polygamous marriage - and a 'multiple marriage' type license was issued. Would the couple actually get one? Seems to me they would be discouraged from obtaining one - even if it were legal.

1. They would lose their benefits from being a single mother (food stamps, health care, monies). (a NEGATIVE for the husband who has to support her and the kids)

2. It would give the husband more legal access to the children should she be re assigned. (a NEGATIVE for the wife who is now with another man)

3. If she left, she would be elligible for spousal support and child support on a different level as the legal spouse. - (a NEGATIVE for the man and a POSITIVE for the woman.

4. She would be elligible for part of his pension, social security etc etc if they were married for a decent amount of time - EVEN if both were remarried. (a NEGATIVE for the mans current wives).

So, do I really think that that little piece of paper would be worth it to the individuals who are planning on doing this. I honestly think they have more to loose than they have to gain.

Of course - there are exceptions to this. I'm speaking really of the big FLDS groups with massive reassignments, huge public assistance reliance, large quantities of wives and tons of children that are constantly being shuffled.

Anonymous said...

atar_i

Your post makes perfect sense therefore I concur that in all probability it will not find favor among those to whom the effects are needed the most.

Since a total absence of responsability seems to be the order of the day. Matrimony seems to have no legal bonds, as far as the rights and responsibilities toward children are concerned. Why bother with ceremony? No more hypocrisy, no more pretense. According to the laws of the state polygamists live in a perpetual state of bigamy and/or at least adulterous behavior, quit trying to hide behind a false face. Why not form a 60's type commune where free-love reigns supreme, everyone is everyone elses child, babe, man, or whatever and no one does anything but sit around all day and smoke pot and contemplate the vastness of their bellybutton, and lie around all night with a different partner.

Only one cardinal rule: Be sure to be available on the day of the month that you go get your unemployment, welfare, WIC, disability check and your food stamps, I mean man, after all, you gotta make some kinda contribution. If you want to live like vagrants be perfect vagrants not pretenders.

On one hand you want to sell yourselves as resourceful, industrous, worker bees, never idle, constantly in motion building a better society.

You have confused physical plant, buildings, dwelling places, municipal buildings, airports, streets, businesses with God's ultimate delight in man . . . Fellowship. Instead you have neglected to build the most important structure, a complete, secure, loving, kind family. Oh you have wive(s) whom you have married as a matter of political convenience and a husband who, because of his place within the priesthood ensures you a more lofty place within the community but, do you really love each other? Do you forsake all others and cleve only to him/her. Would you be the one whom he/she would choose to save from the flood? Would he/she give his/her life to save yours?

To me the proposal of reverting to a 60's free-love society makes just as much sense as does polygamy, as evidenced by FLDS. At least it doesn't attempt to put a legitimate front on debauchery.

onthestreet said...

Ahh, still no clarity in you, is there? The FLDS is the least of debauchery in the world, as many outsiders have acknowledged, including governors and senators.

Okay, let us try this, since we are talking about the foundations of society. When something or someone is founded, it is conceived. The foundation of all things is their conception. Thus, the degree of your sexual purity determines the nature of your entire structure, and that of your offspring. The FOUN-tain of youth or of health is the same root as FOUN-dation, and that foundation is the basis of one being healthy, wealthy, and wise. People get sick, poor, ignorant, and old, generally because of the sexual impurity of their parents and/or themselves. It's like drugs or alcohol. If it's in the parents, it is passed on to the children during conception and gestation, as well as their maturation or growing up.

Purity is parity, and the beginning of the setting-apart (Pur-Par). It is the foundation of the APA-crapha, and the Isle of APAT-mos. "Isle" means "Is God" (Is-le). "Le" is "The" or "Thee", which pertains to God, and permuting it, "El" is God (as in Elohim). An Isle, like God, stands alone, unlike man. There is a song: "No man is an island, no man stands alone".

onthestreet said...

Let me finish:

There is a song: "No man is an island, no man stands alone". This is true of man ("no MAN alone"), but that is his problem. He is not standing alone like God, or with God, but is all mixed up in the sins, diversions, and misconceptions of others. Then the cancer feeds on itself and spreads throughout society. This is why you have no "coherence", and ask for "coherence".

To be like God, a man and woman must come to stand alone, or divine in nature, apat from the fallen nature and the sins of the world. If you ever go into heaven, we go in single-file, although not disconnected. It is a system of spiritual marriages and introductions. We must be set apart (alone) by one having authority. For no man is his own daddy. Still, you must do your own work; you alone must choose the preparation, purification, sanctification, redemption, and exaltation designated by the Lord, under that one authority anointed by Him. There is a saying: Every tub must stand on its own bottom. So there it is. This is why the FLDS Priesthood is called "The Work".

Hope that helps in your quest for clarity. It starts with you having faith in it, in the first place, or else it doesn't start at all.

Anonymous said...

Street's blabbery is word for word identical to his post on the aimoo blog; he is still trying to convince us that the men should collect enough fluid from themselves to raise a family, buy little liquid nitrogen to keep the fluid preverseved, and then snip ourselves in order to be saved in heaven.

onthestreet said...

Ahh, it's nice to know you're enjoying both blogs. Keep up your studies, my child, and you'll get some good larnin.

onthestreet said...

As far as our seed is concerned, there is nothing wrong with raising families. That is the very foundation of society. It is when you freeze your balls off waiting for your seed to do something good, immaculate, in an orderly and authorized way, that you go wrong. Marriage is of God, but only if He authorizes it. Otherwise, it is no more that the breeding of dogs and cats. Christ referred to those outside of His Zion as "dogs", as unwise virgins, or not virgins at all.

I Tim. 4:

1. Now THE SPIRIT SPEAKETH expressly, that in the latter times some SHALL DEPART FROM THE FAITH, giving heed to SEDUCING spirits, and doctrines of devils;

2. SPEAKING LIES in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

3. FORBIDDING TO MARRY, and commanding to abstain from meats (or strong doctrine), which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Anonymous said...

4:52 may be enjoying both blogs but you instead are annoying all those those from within your faith and who do not follow your prophet's pathetic whimperings. Why? Because in your posts you bray like an ass and produce vanities the like of which only can be imagined by an idiosyntric buffoon. Don't you even understand the principle of hyperbole? Good grief! Don't give us a sermon. Offer a reasonable solution to your people's problem. Depending upon you for a rational solution to anything is like depending upon a screen door to serve as the main hatch on a submarine.

Anonymous said...

Gracious!

Lemme guess:

You teach "creative writing" in some junior high school?

quiet canadian said...

Merry Christmas and a happy New Year to all of you in the South.
On the subject of welfare, here in Beautiful British Columbia, we were told several years ago, by Social Services that in a community such as ours, we are responsible to take care of our own therefore none of the members of our community are eligible for welfare. This was told to Winston after an elderly woman in our community lost her job as a "home care aid" when she applied for assistance.
Now all through the years, we have been doing just that taking care of our own. Now the Government auditors have assesed the company directors huge penalties for using money for the community without declaring it as personal income.
How do you win with anything with the closed minds of the governmen today?

Anonymous said...

See, when the "tit" is retracted you can still survive. You'll just have to go to work and take care of your own instead of asking your neighbors to take care of what should have been your responsability all along.

The idea is to 'grow up' and become responsible. I know that this is a dificult concept with your limited ability to think but even the most backward people in the world manage to do it on their own. Why can't you?

You need to read and apply the lesson of the simple fable of the "Grasshopper and the Ant." Are you willing to lay by to provide for lean times or do you intend to "fiddle away" allowing, or desiring someone else to make preparation for your livleyhood. I don't think so......

Anonymous said...

Anon 12/23/ 11:37

Not at this time. But given the chance I might. The point here is that at least it is not the same repeatedly worn-out tripe served up by street on this blog since it's inception.

May I encourage contributors to be candid, be frank, be funny, be provoking, challenge, confront but cut out the canned bull. If possible be original, if you can't at least find some good models to quote. Make a point without going off into a self defined infinity to make your point. Be cocky, be rude, if it helps make your jibe better. Above all, see if you can make your post interesting.

This is addressed not only to you but to myself and those of us both within and without the FLDS who both attact and attempt to defend the peculiar and particular society that those of you call yourself by the name of The Principle and thus daily endure and/or love it's meads and boundries.

I wish for each of you the Peace on Earth that only Christ can give.

onthestreet said...

NONNY (12/22/2005 9:13 PM, 12/23/2005 1:08 PM):

If 4:52 and others are enjoying both blogs, and communing with their fellow man the best they can, who are you to stop them, or to complain about it? You’ve made yourself naked, saying that it annoys those within the faith who do NOT follow the Prophet. You’re not following this faith if you’re not following the Prophet. That just stands to reason. Now, that is your choice, but you have made it and we have not. So who are you to decide, because others defend him, that it is annoying, other than that fact that you were caught in your since and cast out. That may annoy you, but peoples’ faith and communion one with another is really none of your business, now is it. Then you complain about “repeated worn-out tripe”. It is only by repetition that children learn, and the true Gospel doesn’t change.

Merry Christmas and Happy Smithmas.

onthestreet said...

By the way, I recently heard that there are hundreds who enjoy my posts who never post. So if you don't care to learn anything from anyone here, from myself or otherwise, as I learn from you, that's a mighty big lump to have to lump. Just don't let it turn into a tumor, okay. I'd like you to stay happy, and healthy. Then we will all have a very happy Smithmas, yes? (or whatever you choose to call this Holy Day).

ATAR_i said...

If OTS had to have a meaningful job and support his family, he couldn't spend all day reading the blog and coming up with his wisdom (sarcasm) could he?

Perhaps we just need to rename a few departments

Smithfare (used to be called welfare)
JSHS
Smith Stamps

I'm sure Joseph would be so proud to have his followers so completely unable to function without charity.

Anonymous said...

Street said "I recently heard that there are hundreds who enjoy my posts who never post."

Sounds like he is going off his meds again. Don't do it Street! For your own sake.

Anonymous said...

I emailed Griffen yesterday, I will have to see how he responds before having an opinion of him. I suspect he will ignore me, however if the shoe was on the other foot, I might want to know as much as I could before formulating a defense that will be challenged.
If you have an opinion that you think Bruce needs, you can email him here;
lcureton@awdlaw.com

Anonymous said...

Street = incoherent circuitous imbecilic ramblings indicating no direction and totally without purpose or object therefore resulting in nothing of worthwhile known value. ie sub-zero. Of such little importance, unable to produce enough methane gas to cause a bubble in a septic tank. Wanders aimlessly in a maze of smithisteria so vast that none has been exposed to the light of truth in 185 + years.

Anonymous said...

Street, there may indeed be "hundreds" of people who enjoy your posts (although it taxes the imagination greatly) but just be aware there are "hundreds of THOUSANDS" who are appalled and abhor them. If you are going on the strength of public opinion, stop now while you are ahead.

Anonymous said...

Warren is being judged by both Street and Ruth's postings. I suspect MIB enjoys seeing each new posting, no matter what he might say otherwise. Knowing the media is tracking this site and how that medium thinks, a few more like street could be the prophets demise. The lack of posting by several is like offering more rope at a self sponsored hanging.

In the end, in Warren's absence, his spokesman and Public Relations team doesn't know when to stop, nor how much "damage control" is needed in their wake! Street is right, hundreds read his postings, but generate print text derogatory to Warren, neatly archived here!

CEO

Anonymous said...

We just can't get ATAR_i figured out. Most of the time she writes intelligent conversation on the blog, but sometimes it seems as though she is constipated she just sits on the blog and grunts.
re. 12:17 AM post

Faithful Woman said...

to anon of 12-23, at 12:45 with the grashopper and the ant post

Just who the He** do you think you are?
Quiet Canadian just got through telling you that they never were on government aid in the Bountiful community and now they were being charged for using money to support their community and not declaring it as income!
Did you watch the Disney animation "Ants"? The danged grashoppers made slaves of the ants and stole their food!

OK guys, I'm better now.
Just so you know, one size doesn't fit all.

Anonymous said...

Faithful Woman:

This is from Annon: Re. Grasshopper

My dear lady,

If the shoe doesn't fit, don't attempt to put it on. It wasn't meant for you. It was meant for those who, according to state and national record, plant their children and wives in sub-standard housing, isolated from civilization, never lending support, but who expect those wives to go to the welefare offices and make claims as single women who have X number of children and are living without support. If that is not your case, the shoe dosn't fit, does it.

These "husbands", (studs is probably a better term), good members of the priesthood, show up at the woman's ovulation time to ensue the women stay with child all the time. To them they have fulfilled their duty.

Unlike the majority of the world they don't accept any responsabilty for nurturing or providing for the children that they cause to be born. They are the grasshoppers. You, dear women are the ants.

ATAR_i said...

LOL poster 5:45 - it's true!

rumor-has-it said...

Back in the days I was growing up, we had a big family (of 12 children,) and each of the children did everything they could to help support the family. The oldest boy started work at 14 and turned his paycheck to pay the power and water. I started working in third grade. I was paid a $1/hr and it made all the difference. Just $50 a week made a big difference with tissue and groceries. I did everything I could to earn grocery money. At our sunday school Grandfather preached staying away from the government handouts and foodstamps.

We had a prepaid power meter that we could buy $25 at a time and we would turn off the water heater and use it only on Wednesday and Saturday. We could make that $25 last for weeks.

We ate alot of macaroni & cheese and taters and gravy.

I don't think this "bleed the beast" has to do with the FLDS people. I think it comes directly from Flora. I have never heard it from anyone else.

It is such a hassle to get on foodstamps or government assistance. If there is anyone in CC that is on it, they must really need it.

Peaches said...

As a single mother you can be told that if you renounce polygamy and come from Colorado City there is all kinds of programs that will help. They are wrong.

The State of Utah will give you exactly $76 foodstamps for three children.

Stinger said...

anon 10:08, If the shoe fits, don't put it on? That is a load of crap. What the hell are we supposed to do? It doesn't matter if it fits or not. You wonderful people keep attempting to ram it on to anyone that believes in polygamy. It doesn't matter if they are the best parents in the world or the worst. We all get lumped together and there isn't a damn thing we can do about it.

Anonymous said...

there are all kinds of programs that help. I know this myself. I did not have to denousce polygamy and I got more than $76 in food stamps for more than 3 children.

Peaches said...

I am telling you, it is NOT worth it.

I am homeless with three kids and the state could care less.

No matter what happens, if your daughters get married at 14, and you have no control over your life, and you have to ask permission to go to the bathroom, the fridges locked up and no car. At least you have a place to stay and family around you.

Anonymous said...

"the fridges are locked up"?

Could you please explain that a little better, Peaches?

Faithful Woman said...

It happens, another control thing. I personally have not seen any homes run that way.

Anonymous said...

Stinger:

If your family is self supporting I applaud your effort to self sustain. The shoe does-not fit. If however you are in the hand-out line to get freebies when the male head of the family is handing all the cash over to the prophet the shoe DOES fit. His responsibility is FIRST to his family, to ALL his family. IF his family has grown to a size that it is larger than he can support it is time for him to get a VASECTOMY and quit taking more wives than he can support. THERE COMES A TIME WHEN STUPIDITY BECOMES IMBECILEC.

Stinger said...

The point is that the shoe doesn't fit the majority of polygamists. However, if you read the papers you get the idea that all polygamist fit into one of three catagories. Old horny geezers, young naive girls, or teenage boys waiting to be kicked out and become "THE LOST BOYS". The majority of us are just like the average person anywhere else in this world. We live our life to the best of our ability. We take care of our families. We try to pay our bills on time. We go to work every day to make the money to do these things. Then along comes some old broad who claims to have been a polygamist years ago and knows for certain that all that is happening there is old men marrying young girls, beating their children and trying there hardest to screw the government. The papers jump on this story and don't give a hoot how many innocents are hurt by it. Maybe there are some people from the communities that are doing this. I would be willing to bet that there are people in your communities that are doing the same thing. Does this mean you are guilty of it? (If you are, shame on you, and disregard my whole post. You are a bad example. CREEP.) I have yet to see proof that even the majority of the warrenites are doing the things attributed to them. I know some of them are, but alot of them used to be smart, hard working people who loved their families. I am sure that some of them are still like this.

Anonymous said...

If you ain't guilty then you ain't the target. Most of the "bleeding the beast" bunch live northwest of the Hildale-CC bunch. No, Flora didn't put me onto them. There are plenty of perpetrators outside the polygamous community so don't think that I think your people have a monopoly on the welfare act. We have a number of books in our public library that give in depth insight into polygamy. I don't personally agree with the principle, but If you are living it and can support your family without having to depend on any government funded hand out, my hat's off to you. The thing that really gets my "goat" is street's self righteous failure to accept responsability for anything. He reminds me of a democrat. Stuff happens! Hurricaines and tsunamis are George W. Bush's fault if you believe the likes of Chuckie Schumer, Howard Dean and Teddy Kennedy. Street may be a fruitcake. He may prefer sex with a male partner. He may be neutered. He's just gone up against a pretty sharp buzz saw if he thinks his idiotic preaching is going to win any arguments or make any converts to Warren Jeffs or Jeffs way of life. As far as most of us here are concerned, Jeffs is a fugitive from the law deserving anything that the law can offer to apprehend his duplicitous carcass.
We've called his or anyone is CC's hand regarding Jeffs lie that there is no Temple building going on in Schleicher County, Texas. Come on down, we'll take you out to the gate and you can see for yourself. Why don't you make up a caravan so that when you get back home everyone can tell the same story. Bring mom and the kids. Don't they deserve the truth too?

Stinger said...

Hey.. if you aren't one of the people who think that all polygamists fit into those three catagories you aren't my target either. Just for the record, I would rather see warren dipped it hot oil, lit on fire, and thrown down a deep mine shaft full of venemous snakes, as not. I also think street has a few screws loose.

ogre said...

12/27 6:09 p.m.
hear hear stinger well said!!!

furnace said...

Just for the record, I don't enjoy seeing people wanting to kill Warren or writing graphic ways to handle him, although I certainly think his pedophilia is rotten. It's easy to detect guilt simply by the pious wimperings--instead of hiding guilt, it makes it more obvious. Let the law of the land handle him when he is caught.

Anonymous said...

I agree. I just wish someone with some credibility in the Hildale - CC area would verify to Jeff's followers the truth about the diggins in Texas. They are here!!!

Stinger said...

Who said anything about killing? I would very much like for him to live in the pit.

Anonymous said...

I think Stinger, the question for you is not what to do with mr jeffs once he is caught, but rather how to get him caught.

more importantly is the much bigger question that faces you and your neighbors.

At which point do you decide when it is time stop defending virtue of your ways and start addressing the error of your ways?

Either way many people, even the good people, are going to get hurt. but somehow I think God will understand. don't you?

This question must have cost you many nights of rest.

keep sweet (and merry christmas) eldorado
stg

Anonymous said...

errrr...sorry for the typos

....when it is time TO stop defending THE virtue of your ways...

stg

ATAR_i said...

Hey Stinger - are you polygamous now (I mean physically as well as ideologically)?

You've been gone for awhile and I wondered if you 'made the leap'?

Hey, did you guys know there is going to be a polygamous drama on TV? I just heard of it. I saw three wives (could be more - that was just a promo shot).

ATAR_i said...

Let me give a bit more info

It's an HBO drama called 'Big Love'

Here is a Newsweek article on it.

Stinger said...

Tell me, stg, what are the errors of my ways? I can't lose sleep over my errors if I don't know what they are. Currently the thing that causes me to lose sleep is wondering if the problem my styer is having is in the computer system or the hydraulic system. Maybe once I have that figured out I will ponder my errors. As to getting warren caught... do you really think that the big FBI couldn't grab him anytime they wanted? They're probably just sitting back laughing themselves silly at his crazy antics as he tries to avoid him. And trust me, if I ever saw him I would be turning him over to the police.
Atar, I still only have one wife. I've got another child since we last talked, though.

Anonymous said...

Stinger:
you misread me. the "your" was plural, not you personally... not unless of course in a past life your name was Joseph Smith

Being that I'm only looking in from afar and the fact that I'd be the first to admit when I'm wrong, still doesn't mean I don't mind that taste of my own foot. So instead of making assumptions, allow me instead to ask you a few questions.

What do you see as the future of your little renegade group? Sit back and wait for jeffs to fall and quietly join back with the rest, like nothing ever happened? Throw in the towel and bleed into the general population? I can't see such a small group as yours going at it alone....or maybe not.

With Winston at the controls, I'm thinking things are pretty much safe and sane for now, but happens if that were to change, you know, he gets hit by the proverbial bus, carted off to jail? Who would take over? What changes for better or worst lay ahead. Sooner or later Winston will be gone, how will that affect the future of your kids and their kids as well. (Congrats on the new one BTW)

Which raises the big question. Is warren just a sole tyrant, just a fluke or is he just a typical product of an isolated community such as yours? I can tell you for sure from the outside and looking around that jeffs' types are a dime a dozen. You find them everywhere... running corporations, in politics, lawyers, investors, street gangs, dictators of foreign countries, even in silly places like playgrounds, ball fields and used car lots. Only difference is that seldom do these jeffs' types enjoy the absolute power as he and seldom do they make it through their lives without paying hefty price.

Then throw in the nasty stuff. Children being married off by arrangement rather than choice, boys tossed on the street without money, education and experience, families rearranged without a disputable cause... the list goes on and on.

Is the principle worth all that? Is this the kind of results that God and Jesus would approve? Do You approve?

I'm guessing (and only guessing) that the authorities aided by your (plural) knowledge would be a whole lot more successful in solving this problem and getting life settled for all of you..., but correct me if I'm wrong.

keep sweet eldorado
stg

Stinger said...

Stg, for your first question, I don't consider that I am part of a "renegade" group. I believe in the same things that I did before warren came to power and I will still believe in these same things after warren is gone. You refer to us as a "small group going it alone." From your posts I am assuming you belive in God so answer me a question. Where is it written that a man has to even belong to a group in order to survive when he is following God? I consider myself part of a group with God and Jesus at the head. If you look at it this way I belong to quite a large group. This should answer your next question. If Winston wasn't here I would still carry on doing the same things as I do now. My salvation and that of my family is in my hands. Not Winston's. It is my responsibility to teach my family the principles of my religion. Is not this the same for you, or do you follow blindly behind someone, expecting them to save you? As to the future, I hope very much that my children will be interested in the same gospel that I am, however, it is their choice. I will do the best I can to keep them believing as I do but if they choose differently it won't change how I feel for them. Would you do any different with yours? Next question...where ever there is a group of people willing to be led there is a snake willing to exploit them. This can be seen in the history of every religion and nation on this earth. As you said, warren's type are a dime a dozen, but I think there is a lot more examples of his kind of absolute power than you want to believe. Every religion has their offshoots with someone like warren. They just aren't as much in the spotlight. I agree that there is a hefty price to pay for following these kind of people. I definitely don't think children should be getting married. However, I have no problem with arranged marriage, if it is mutually agreed on by both parties. My marriage was an arranged one, I have been married for over seven years, and have never regretted it. I have been very much in love with my wife since almost the moment I met her. The boys getting kicked out, I don't live down there so I don't think I could really give an opinion on them. If they are getting kicked out with nothing and no one I think it is dispicable. If I was a young man living down there I would kick myself out of the city. From what I have noticed it isn't that grand of a place to live in the first place. I can't really comment on the families getting rearranged because the words I would like to use to describe my feelings on that aren't considered very appropriate for a public forum. My mother is one of those women who have left their husbands to live with another man. These things aren't the principles I believe in. I think my principles would closely match your own and I believe God approves of the things I believe every bit as much as he does of any of his other children. I think there are many paths to heaven and it is the way we follow these paths rather than the path we choose that makes the difference in the end. We have invited the authorities into our community, including the BC School Board, but they have so far declined. It's hard to prove something to someone that doesn't want it proven.
So... hopefully I answered more questions than I created, that was a bit too much typing for a logger and I have to go to a dance so I don't have time to spell check. If you need anything more from me you know how to ask.

Keep it Real
Stinger

Faithful Woman said...

Wish I could come to that dance too Stinger. I love to dance and it has been years.

quiet canadian said...

Happy New Year from Canada to all our Southern friends