John Llewelynn was calling a Spade a spade or just spit in the eye of the Utah Attorney General!
The traffic after this obscure editorial in New Zealand, has already bounced back here at home. No doubt controversial, but controversary sales newspapers.
John was a former member of the AUB, while being a Deputy Sheriff for Utah County, a history that makes his perspective interesting to say the least. I know tempers will flare after reading this one......
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0509/S00173.htm
MIB
118 comments:
That's an excellent article - and, makes me think twice about my attitude regarding not prosecuting bigamy/polygamy.
Why the heck not? If they doing something that is against the law, then it needs to be dealt with. The law is clear, wether you like it or not - it's clear.
I also agree that LDS brought this into UTAH, if you speak to a Mormon, even the ones from Utah, they pretend it doesn't even exist. I would like to see them take a more active role in insisting that bigamy and polygamy be prosecuted.
Despite what OTS contends - men have a sex drive, and, some men (though I doubt all) might find the prospect of sleeping with mutiple women sexually arousing, and could further develop an unhealthy appetite for this sort of sexual contact because of their continued exposure to it.
Why isn't Rachael's complaint being investigated - that's pretty lame and pathetic of the DA's office to let this one go.
As a female - a vocal female, an active female I'll make it my aim at work to see that the individuals I come into contact with are aware of the DA's inactivity in this matter.
At least once - and sometimes twice a day I have the opportunity to share with individuals about the situation in Utah. I work in a professional environment, and without disclosing too much information about myself, the individuals I have been able to share with are quite educated, and many have begun to read 'Under the Banner of Heaven'. It's actually spreading like a little bit of wildfire - and other individuals in the same field, different locations are being made aware as well.
Shame on law enforcement.
MIB Interesting article. LE because of recent Supreme Court rulings that threw out laws making gay relations illegal, LE is faced with case law from U.S. Supreme Court that makes gay relations between consenting adults legal, this case law could be interperted as applying to all adults, hetro, gay or bisexual. Which could be interperted as making anti- polygamy laws as relates to adults unenforcable.
LE may be afraid that all laws applying to relations between consenting adults maybe thrown out by future Supreme Court rulings, ie: Bigamy & polygamy laws.
IMO LE is not going to push enforcement of polygamy laws as relates to adults, because it would be very unpopular with general public is USA that sees nothing wrong with gay relations ships, hetro relationships where people live together etc.
THe US Supreme Court has basiclly made relationships between all consenting adults legal. Which is why we see LE going after polygamy involving minors.
I don't like polygamy, don't think it is a good thing, but the above is my opinion as to why polygamy laws are not enforced.
Signed a Texan.
I don't think that popular opinion is going to swing in favor of polygamy on this one.
I don't think that mainstream America is ready to accept the fact that a man can have 18-70 wives and only be financially responsible to support one wife and the offspring of that union - with the taxpayers footing the rest of the bill.
I think most of us, when we find out that these men and women are abusing a system we all support (for those who are actually needy), to provide for women they consider to be their wives and children they prolifically create - will be majorly pissed off.
They have muddled their racist, financially irresponsible, child molesting ways so heavily in with the polygamy - if they had ever dreamed of getting polygamy legalized they surely made a sticky, pungent mess of it.
Perhaps the US is sexually open enough to wrap their arms around polygamy, but with all the other baggage they have right now - I wouldn't count on sentiment being to highly in their favor - ESPECIALLY WHEN SOMEONE IS COMPLAINING.
Now, I can understand if the polygamist wives aren't complaining (makes it difficult) - but this young ex-polygamist wife IS COMPLAINING - and no one is listening.
So......if I were her, I'd get an attorney who is HIGH profile but willing to spend the time on the case in exchange for getting another high profile case under his belt.
Anyone know any African American attorneys (they might really enjoy getting their hands on a case like this to expose other negative aspects of these types of faiths). I think anyone who knows someone who would be willing to be a 'junkyard dog' on Rachaels case should contact her ASAP.
It is an interesting point in this article that the writer admits there is a group of LADIES fighting in support of polygamy. Are they doing it in fear? I don't think so. There have been several posters on this site who have advocated polygamy from a womans point of view. Not all polygamy is abusive. Not all polygamy stems from sexual desires of males or females.
That there are abuses is unarguable. If the story of Rachel is factual that man needs put in prison or stoned to death. All abuse needs to be dealt with according to law (yes I know stoning is not according to law, but her account is that horrible).
Where there is evidence of abuse action should be taken by LE. But because one man or even a few men, and it really is a relative few, abuse their plural wives doen not mean all men living polygamy are abusive.
For the record: No I am not living polygamy. Yes I do believe in it and it is a tenet of my faith.
And if you viewed Monagimst relationships the same as these hyped up media freaks, you would be stoneing some one ever day. I think it is gross enough what they put on the news. Oh, but that does not count; you like to persicute people for religion. I think you people are sick. You have made it clear you care nothing about people. you are like dog's after after a bone. Well, nibble and you may be chewing on your own toe.
This is not a Texas Polygamy blogg. This is a "Every creep in the nation" "Telling your filth," Hope they curl up and wither" Blogg. YOu people are sick. You and this whole blogg and Jim Ashurst and all connected to them. SICK. I think that this is what was spoken of in the bible about the Dogs out side the city.
It doesn't really matter if it is a polygamous, monogamous, or otherwise relationship. If someone is abusive it is wrong. The worst of these abuses are against children. Don't use the excuse that LE should not enforce the law among polygamists because there are abuses in monogamous relationships. Abuse is abuse.
As MIB states controversy sells papers. So does sensationalism. This is because of human nature.
"A lie will travel the village over while truth is getting its boots on". If anyone is falsely accused of abuse they should be willing to be examined. I don't see this happening under warren's rule.
Ruth go somewhere else. No one is making you be here.
Shut of the computer or google something you like.
You are always talking about freedom...It is a free county and I don't think anyone is holding a gun to your head to read or participate here.
Walk away from this blog and do something more contructive, like getting a job.
I say this topic has taken a turn in the muck.
If you were to examine monogimist's like these sensationalist media people, and take your own advice you would have to stone some one ever day. Watching the news is bad enough. This blog is full of Queer's. Jim Ashurst's blog is worse. I know there are normal people in the world. They just do not participate on these hate blog's.
And as some one made a reference to this being a free country; What would you know? What would you know about anything. You are like a stink bug, full of filth. This is a creep talk blog. It has nothing to do with real life. Your stories are so full of smuck and mire they smell up the whole nation. Jay Beswick said he was hoping things would disintergrate. You are all scum, in my book. And abuser's are ignored. They need evidence. Bull, you are all full of bull.
Nobody is in trouble for living the fundamentals of fundamentalism.
All of the problems are the result of turning away from them.
Anons
Gotta say, I'm sick of old men who've had sex with adolescent girls and have multiple wives telling me (the girl whose only had sex with her husband and was a virgin on her wedding night) that I'm a whore and a creep and etc.
So get over yourselves, you're not more holy because you have sex with more people (including children), have more wives, have more kids or use more food stamps.
I'm not impressed. Not at the accusations, not at the accusers.
The new anons hadn't posted when I replied - I'm speaking to the older anon postings.
I agree one hundred percent, to the person who said, "Nobody is in trouble for living the fundamentals of fundamentalism. All of the problems are the result of turning away from them."
I agree. I agree. Maybe there is some one on this blog who is sensible. Celestial Marriage is a Fundamental law of the gospel. I would defend it with all my soul. I would not support abuse in any way. I know what filth some of you speak. I would not trade places with you if you stoned me. I would not trade places with you for all the gold in the world. I would not trade places with you for all the honor of men. I would not trade places with you for any thing upon the earth. And since you point out the rights of American's. I shall point out my right to disagree with you filthy scum, that spread your filthy lies and prevent Just Judgement upon the abuser's. You filthy scum, that cover up your own abuse and allow other's to do the same. YOu will be stopped and rooted out. All evil will be. That is a promise of God.
And as to the media sensationalism, I think that God has given them what they wanted. They have a big wave across the sea, and a Hurricane upon American soil. So do not blame the government entirely for your thirst of evil. You say public opinion does not support our church. What is new? We have been persicuted from the begining and We care not one whit for your diabolical persicution upon us. Nor do we ask this government to sensor our relationships. We do not support your filthy law's. We support the constitution of America. We did not base our faith upon gentile public opinion. We based our faith upon the right's of American law to worship according to our consience and The book of morman supports this Idea too. If you make law's against this, that is your tyranny.
You don't get to have it both ways.
You can't be persecuted and prosecuted.
So far Ruth, I have never come down on you, and called you names. But I'm getting pretty darn sick of being called filthy tyranical scum by you.
I've been on a few lists/blogs or whatever you want to call them. People get pretty heated up about stuff. You're no different, no better, and your comments do not acend to some higher level. You are just as cruel, mean and biting as any middle class soccer mom whose little darling sat on the bench the whole game and has decided to muck up the whole blog with her bitter rants.
I just don't understand the rationale behind claiming a higher spiritual level and then acting in that manner.
Cuz I just won't buy it.
Oh, I don't know about that. Remember they are warrenites, with a little twisting, contorting, changing a little here, a little there they can make anything fit.
I meant that for Anon 1:35.
You tell her Atar!
If the acusations are true it's prosecution.
If they are false it is persecution.
You might be able to pull one over on the AG, but you can't trick God.
I understand. I said it tongue-in-cheek.
And right now, I think you could pull any thing over on the AG. All a person would have to do is say they love Warren Jeffs and they would go to Jail.
And all a person would have to do to get away with a crime is say he told them to do it. Then they would be patted on the back and sent out in the world to scam the rest of them.
And the one who said, they loved Warren Jeffs would wait for twenty year's for a hearing. And the AG, would be in his office reading the Polygamy primer scratching his head. And as long as he bolted his door and did not watch T.V. he may be alLright. Until the crimnal's that said they supported Warren Jeffs decided they wanted to throw another victum to the dog's, Then the DA would be knocking on there door that day, Why they gave them the choice to turn away from their church or not have any law. I say, God has said, he would root out all evil. NONE OF YOU ARE EXEMPT. I AM NOT EXEMPT.
I wondered after reading this Lewellyn article if maybe this Law of Chastity Musser doctrine isn't the real source of a lot of the abuse and perversion that seems to have inflitrated it's way into the culture.
The un-natural pressure it puts into what would otherwise be a wholesome normal lifestyle is less than noble.
It was also always peddled by the old burnt out duffers who were past the age of being virile.
That would make an interesting study.
And Atari, all I would have to do to be on your leval with insults is say I do not support any church. I say this blog suck's! And it is infiltered with filth. Filth and lies. YOu all know it. I know it. So your insults fell on deaf ear's.
And to anonymous poster 9/14/2005 at 2.00
You proved my point to perfection. You call the law of chastity, a musser doctrine. YOu have proved my point. The law of chastity is a biblical doctrine. It is a book of MOrman doctrine. And this is a filthy web page, supported by filthy nongrels.
OK Ruth, so do us all a favor and stop infiltering it with your filth and lies. Followt the advice above and take your stink and muck elsewhere.
you obviously dont know the meaning of, perfection, chastity, biblical or doctrine.
but you probably don't need to go look up filthy.
Look fttc,
you had a spelling error; followt
I wonder if you did mean followt.
And if you did, what was it that you did mean? Your filth is rancid.
If your idea of filth is a spelling error you had better look that one up too.
To fttc. Oh, that one was said with toung in cheek, as I was repeating some of the insults I read earlier. I was being sarcastic. Of course You understand I do not care one bit about how you spell. In truth, I would like it a lot more if you could not spell at all. Then this filthy web page would not be able to exersise the right to filth quite as freely as it does.
And in spite of you people's filth and rancid opinion's, Our city's have grown. And in spite of the government's harrassment, Our City's have continued to grow. We build in spite of your persicution. We build in spite of your harrasment. We build and God has written the book's and put out his law's. He has put these book's out in every nation. "The law of Christ. The law of Chastity. The law of the constitution." I say this is a filthy blog, unless I am speaking on it. And a few other's who defend honesty.
I am sure you would like me and others to go away as we make you uncomfortable. The truth will do that to those who have rejected it and chosen a lie in its stead. So go forth and repent, return unto God and He will return unto you. Make yourself clean so you will not pollute this blog with your muck and filth.
And you are already far from me, fttc. I am lucky. All I have to do is push a button and you are away from me.
Out of your own mouth you shall make your judgement.
Speak again and that is what will befall you. Be very careful how you mock the words of the Prophet's.
All through history, what evil men have thrust upon other's have fallen upon them. Read the fate of the persicutor's of the Prophet Joseph. I say, Be careful how you mock. He may deliver. Like Cora hore in the book. And the only sign that shall be given to this nation is the sign of Jonah, And the Queen of the south shall rise up in Judgement of this nation. For she came from the bowls of hell, and she came to hear the words of Jonah, and one greater than he is here. I say fttc, and all other's who promote filth and discord, you did not write the law. I did not write the law. I say be very careful how you mock the words of Christ. He may deliver what you throw out, back upon you. BE careful, what you wish on inacent people. You may find your judgement in your own hands. You say, some of you, that you have heard the teachings of Christ and say he has done nothing, better think again. Time with God is not in exsistance. We are upon event's and experiences. I say watch your mouth. god will throw it back upon you. I will speak as Joseph did. "I wish nothing more for my fellow man , than there eternal salvation." This is an eternal law. What you give out comes back ten fold.
It is the people who uphold the law's. God has put his law upon this nation. If you vote against this law, you have voted for your own down fall. If you can make up filth and lies to persicute inacent people because of religion, you have voted your own freedoms away. If you vote the constitution away, because of amendment's, you have voted your own amendment's away. It was written, "Nation shall be against nation. City against city. It will appear that there is no government." There will be mobs and men hunting the lifes of other's. The plauges will come upon the land. The plauges of flies. And God said, he would cut this short, in rightouseness. When the people collectivly turn from the law's of Christ, what is left? If you all are publicly supported in the destruction of a church, you have then asked God for the destruction of the wicked. You have filled your cup. YOu have turned completely away from his teaching's. If you do this, what is left. TOLAL ANARCHI. Think then what it is you vote for. Liberty or communisim. The rights of all men, or the imprisionment of your own country. I vote for the law of Christ. I vote for peace. Peace can only be had by peacable people. Think about your insults befor you throw them out. YOu will affect all men. You will affect your own right's.
Anonymous said...
And in spite of you people's filth and rancid opinion's, Our city's have grown. And in spite of the government's harrassment, Our City's have continued to grow. We build in spite of your persicution. We build in spite of your harrasment. We build and God has written the book's and put out his law's. He has put these book's out in every nation. "The law of Christ. The law of Chastity. The law of the constitution." I say this is a filthy blog, unless I am speaking on it. And a few other's who defend honesty.
9/14/2005 2:34 AM
RUTH GET OFF THE BLOG. IF YOU THINK THIS A FILTHY PLACE AND YOU KEEP COMING BACK TO IT YOU ARE SINNING. SO.....STAY AWAY.
BY THE WAY WARREN YOUR KING AND GOD IS BUILDING FOR SURE, BUT NOT FOR THE GLORY OF YOUR GOD, HIS.
Ruth, the magnificent wisdom of your posts hath confounded thy humble servant. I tremble in my boots at thy threatnings. Please accept my humble apology and post no more of thy gibberish.
Ruth, ask Uncle Warren to give you a home in Mesquite, Colorado or Texas. He has built some mighty fine ones there. Why are you homeless if your Prophet is so kind and forgiving? Why do you have to depend on the kindness of others. Where is your home Ruth. Why do keep defending a child molester Warren, Ruth.
Is Warren and Winston the only two who have over 20 wives in the FLDS group. And why is that........?
Inquiring Mind
I think the issue of tax supported religion will hit the fan, spreading manure. The public gets up in arms more over taxation than morality. Exampled by Thomas Green, Thomas was not able to support 5 wives and 30 some odd children on his magazine sales business that grossed about $12,000. its last successful year. When tally'd up over a few years, Thomas had used over a million dollars in public support funds.
Here in California where we are famous for liberals, the gay marriage proposal was voted down by popular vote. The reason it persists here in California is the legislature that refuses to let it die! If as John Dougherty pointed out, we focus on what it cost Americans who don't practise polygamy, but who are tollerent of it, even they will retreat from picking up the tab.
Most of us make more income than the average polygamist and have only 2 to 3 children. How does one make it when you have 20-40 children? You have to look beyond food stamps and visible social service programs to understand a dozen ways that there exist a tax supported lifestyle. The 8 to 1 ratio in Mohave county of tax revenue recieved verses services provided, only addresses the counties cost, which extends to school and other services.
Living in Utah for 10 years, the locals in Hurricane were less interested in abuse, next to the cost to taxpayers. Should the lifestyle continue to grow by exponential increases, who will foot bill?
MIB
Jay beswick; where in have you been threatened. I say you shall decide your own judgement, so be careful how you speak. I do speak as they speak in the bible, and you contend it is a threat.
LIke Nephi spoke unto his brother's. And as they hung Jesus on the cross, they did mock and accuse him too.
I will keep my opinion. This blog is infested with Anti-American's. You try a man for his religion.
I was asked who our next leader would be, so that these people would know who to persicute.
I have also sat in church with a lot of you, and heard your testiomonie's, and now you turn from the very principles that you claimed to believe. What is the law of Christ. ARe you so contaminated that to say, I uphold the constitution and so not support law's that take away America's freedom's, and you call me names. I say, I am seeing with my own eye's the prophacy's being fullfilled. I say, it is written, By your own mouth's you shall speak your own Judgment's. You think I threaten because I quote the books. I say, "I stand with My Lord." And I have a right too. And to say that he has filth upon him: You do speak your own sin's. As you accuse, so speak you, your own guilt. I know he is an innacent man. I know. I know and when you speak your filth and accuse, I know then what you are guilty of also. Jay Beswick, there is no threat from me to you. I will say again, "I wish nothing more for my fellow men, than there eternal salvation." And I think this blog is infiltered with filthy men. For the most part. People who want to promote a lie, to stop religion. Besides Jay Beswick, you know that the things on your film by a certain innacent girl was spoken in truth, and who would try to stop a child mollester, but you put out filth, that we are taught this in our church, when you know it is not so.... Condend with God now. I am tired of the lot of you.
I agree with MIB about the government support. I grew up in a polygamist family with more than thirty brother's and sisters. My Father never accepted one dollar of welfare or government assistance. We did not have a million dollar home but we had a good life. Our Father made sure we all received a highschool education and most of that was homeschooling again without government assistance. So he educated us without even the advantage of tax dollars most people have. Our homeschooliing ended with a GED and in every case was passed with top grades. And yes some of us chose to go on to college.
My point once again is that, yes, there are those who are abusing the welfare system. But it does not mean all are. It is not the principle of plural marriage that is causing the problems in Short Creek but rather the character of the people living there.
It is shameful to me how many residents there are on some form of welfare if not every form available. The people there will excuse themselves because we have welfare fraud throughout the nation. It is no excuse. On the one hand the FLDS wants to claim they are the best people on the earth and in the next breath they are excusing themselves because of the wickedness of others. The abuse needs to be stopped and I say there is not a better place to start stopping it than CC/Hildale. And it shouldnt't stop there. Let's get to the root of the problem and go after the people that are abusing the system and not try to blame the polygamy issue because it may be more unpopular.
And I say, youdo contend with My God. He did write the law. I did not. He did cause his books to be written. I did not. He did cause the constitution to be wrote. I did not. I say you contend with him already. YOu and your filth. You and your filth. I say that the constitution will not be done away with. I say that Tyranny upon American soil will be put down. I say the the right's and freedom's will be again established upon this continant. I say all tyranny will be put down. I speak in boldness upon the matter, Because God caused this to be written a long time ago. This is an age old war. God has alway's triamphed. I shall fly his flag. WITH LIBERTY AND JUSTACE FOR ALL. AND THE EARTH WAS HIS IN THE BEGGINING. MAN HAS NO RIGHT TO PUT A PRICE UPON IT. AND IN DOING SO, SELLS THERE OWN BIRTH RIGHT.
Mugwump
LOL
I'll be laughing the rest of the day.
Good to see that everyone here still practises Freedom of Speech! Lucky we are to be able to voice our opinions, even to those that disagree. Freedom of religion however allows for a freedom in belief, sometimes not permitted in practise! The examples given in the courts, have been you don't have the right to yell fire in a crowded theatre. Freedom of speech has its own limitation when it violates the rights of another or the law.
Argued by other fringe religions, there is a "Church of Satan", which used to be located in San Bernardino County. They had ritual ceremony that used blood, but was animal and purchased like meat from a butcher. They had another preference, but this was regulated under the law. Religious freedom permits the most extreme of belief in thought, but not in practise.
Over and over we have continued with the law in America in regards to whether polygamy was ever legal, it was not! Early America adopted the British Common Law, which placed the penalty at death, a rather extreme measure for the times.
The history sighted in Reynolds Vs the US offered;
“Polygamy has always been odious among the northern and western nations of Europe, and, until the establishment of the Mormon Church, was almost exclusively a feature of the life of Asiatic and of African people. At common law, the second marriage was always void, and from the earliest history of England polygamy has been treated as an offence against society. After the establishment of the ecclesiastical courts, and until the time of James I, it was punished through the instrumentality of those tribunals, not merely because ecclesiastical rights had been violated, but because upon the separation of the ecclesiastical courts from the civil the ecclesiastical were supposed to be the most appropriate for the trial of matrimonial causes and offences against the rights By the statute of 1 James I (c. 11), the offence, if committed in England or Wales, was made punishable in the civil courts, and the penalty was death. As this statute was limited in its operation to England and Wales, it was at a very early period re-enacted, generally with some modifications, in all the colonies. In connection with the case we are now considering, it is a significant fact that on the 8th of December, 1788, after the passage of the act establishing religious freedom, and after the convention of Virginia had recommended as an amendment to the Constitution of the United States the declaration in a bill of rights that ‘all men have an equal, natural, and unalienable right to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience,’ the legislature of that State substantially enacted the statute of James I., death penalty included, because, as recited in the preamble, ‘it hath been doubted whether bigamy or poligamy be punishable by the laws of this Commonwealth.’ 12 Hening’s Stat. 691. From that day to this we think it may safely be said there never has been a time in any State of the Union when polygamy has not been an offence against society, cognizable by the civil courts and punishable with more or less severity.”
Where religion dictates or compells its faithful to reject or ignore the law, the practise is suspect. If the religion could bare to make women the head of the house and the priesthood leadership, those outside the religion might better accept the religious tenet. Historically men have made the rules, and to their benefit in both religion and society. Requiring ones females to submit or be damned in a society of equality under the law, presses the limits of tollerance of church and state.
Is it freedom that compells women to support polygamy or fear of damnation in a belief historically invented by men from the old testament through Joseph Smith and on to men like Thomas Green, Thomas Sliwinski and Warren Jeffs. To say you believe in Uncle Roys teachings or Rulon Jeffs, is an admission that "Sarah's Law" for women still exists and that it overrides free choice. Free choice is to submit to perfect obedience and the priesthood council, its the same between the AUB, FLDS, Kingstons and Jim Harmston's TLC.
Every year at the county fair I watch 15 people get hypnotized on stage and it happens in 10 minutes. Elizabeth Smart was programed in something less than the 9 months of her captivity. So if you are raised to narrowly believe that the moon is made of cheese since birth, in your reality its made of cheese! If a hypotist can do it in 10 minutes, think about a life time of programing. Often children of a Republican, grow up to be the same. Vice-versa Democrats the same.
There is no arguing where belief is up for grabs, a Baptist, Lutheran or ??? But under the law and seperating religion from laws violated and abuses documented, this debate has no leg to stand on.
If John Llewelyn was addressing this in California the programing or tollerances here, would result in a much different reaction and outcome. John not only a former sheriff and a member of the Allred's was also a SEX CRIMES investigator and was trained in that discipline. Under the law, unenforced, his conclusions are correct.
As Atari stated Jon Krakauer's book has continued to be read and remains a best seller. Addressing the broader issue now or in the courts is headed for a showdown, but assisting is Warren Jeffs who is demonstrating his disregard for the law. His actions are serving another side, not that of his religion.
On trial in 1998 before Mary Ann Kingston was beat unconscious, the movement to decriminalize polygamy had great hopes. After 5 years of the FLDS making the news, the movement has become frustrated and now fears a backlash in public opinion! Give Warren another year, not to mention spokes people like OTS and Ruth, then what will be the future? The public with each posting are being given a window of this belief and with it the court of public opinion is not likely to support a belief that is still defending the concept of Mary mother of Jesus being wed at 12 to 14 years old. From ignoring one law to another, decriminalizing polygamy is on trial now, with a poor choice of spokes people, but POST on, it gives me more to download!
MIB
Ruth
After dialoging with you outside this forum, I have tried to not engage you personally with an audience. Your blaming is convoluted, making some of us responsible before we were even aware of abuses in Colorado City.
If you are to continue playing god and condeming others, the focus here might change. You obviously have alot of time on your hands. Working in your garden is a healing thing, cursing those who don't share your religion is a black hole.
Maybe you are ready to tell these folks how you exist, who pays your bills and something more about yourself. I'm thinking some are curious. Drawing attendion to yourself is about self and you will never find peace in this garden (Texas Polygamy Blog). You know the truth within your life and as Warren has stated "leave them alone, talk to them not". To be true to your prophet, are you the best spokesman (woman) to exemplify and represent Warren to the media and Law Enforcement? You do what you think is right, but you are casting your pearls amongst swine, if you have really been following Warren's edict.
You have not watched the news lately if you think that polygamy is being debated.
I think that another hurricane landing is being debated.
I think that they contend in court wheather a human being is a soul, befor it is born.
I think that it is clear, why god does speak as he does. He does not esttem one flesh above another, and the court's have the odassity to debate wheather there is life ih a human being. And you also do contend in the court's your right's to bear arm's. Oh, how wicked and pervers is this nation. That they could even debate this thing. I say, that by your own words you have condemned the right to freedom of speach, in filth. You claim that as an American you have the right to believe what you think, just so as you do not ecersise your right, and speak. I say that as an American And according to the Book of MOrman, it is written, "In the day's before I said, The angels will go up before you." IN this day, it is written, "I the Lord will fight your battles. I have required you to sacrifice all evil feelings and forgive your brother, and I will forgive whom I may." God will fight our battles. We have endured much, We hope to endure all things. We will worship and we will live it. If you destroy us for this, That is your debt to god and speaks heavily of your evil.
And I in know way try to speak for My Lord. I in no way do have to account to this nation. I walked your streets. I saw for myself. I saw for myself. I ask not of you. I thank those who gave to me. Who they are they know. And You also have evidence, and make a mock of me. And you also speak the truth. This blog is not a garden. It is a filthy mire. You are right about me being disobedient, and contending with you in your filth. And I am in no way pretending to play God. I am not as he. I am not as he. I only Do the best I can. I am not in the Garden, and do not pretend to be. I am upon your filthy blog. When I shut this evil down in my self, I shall be happier. You all claim to want to stop abuse. Well, LIes never did a thing to stop this. And I shall live my religion. I shall honor my Heratage and if you disagree, that is your choice to believe in your right to free speach, but not to exercise this right. Keep your mouth shut. By your own law you are obligated to be silent. And I shall be too. And what God will do, we shall all see.
This language of God fighting your battles for you is what concerns the world beyond. Krakauer only scratched the surface in "Under The Banner of Heaven" in reporting on a violent faith. It is the fringe that interpret what they will from scripture and their actions will judge many. The Lafferty brothers were on the fringe, but cast a bad light on many. If you are representing the FLDS, then many will judge the FLDS by what you personally say and do! By the way, you were xlint on "A Current Affair", but the world will judge many by such a self proclaimed spokesperson.
Do you really think Warren will thank you for the spotlight you are placing on all who follow him? I wonder if this is beyond your reasoning? You should really be running this by Rod Parker, who yes still communicates with Warren.
I will remind you, I do not spead for Rod Parker, or do I speak for Warren. YOu sound like Other men who oppress, that blame me for What this scamming media does. I was interupted at the grave yard and they did pull there scam on me. So take your bull ----and tell it to the moon. I would not care if I never seen another Media filth scum bag again. They can leave me alone. They can stay out of my City. And I do love this Uncle WArren. And I would be glad if you perpetuated your Idea about religion on the Freedom of the press, and tell them they could have all the freedom they wanted as long as they Just had it and did not use it. The Media people are filthy scamming liers and they edit a lot of what people say to look like what they wanted said, and That ding dong, in Prime Time perfected there filthy deciet to a perfetion. And I am not in need of Rod Parker's services. If I am I supose That he would be here. I am not fighting over the land. I am not fighting over religion. I do not support gross advantage of the disabled by filthy media people. So can your lips. Leave me the h---alone. All you scum that think I am an easy target and think you will get your Sensationalism from me. I do not like your approach. I do not like your law's. I do not like dishonesty. There-fore pick on sombody else to beat up. I only asked for a stupid ding dong to follow his own filthy court order. That is all. And you would have thought i was a terrorist. And the Black hole you threaten me with was dug a long time ago and the die cast with out my knowledge. So thereaten the moon. And can your Idea's. I need them not....And to say that Rod Parker still defends our Prophet speaks of his honesty. But do not mix your filth and try to brush it off on me.
And I will remind you that the world did Judge me from the day of my birth. And your threats are just that: Threats. God did not condemn me. He does help me. And by all means do not judge any one by me. I think it woudl be wise if you judge other's by themselfs and not by me. I was judged and condemned a long time ago. And YOur threats are filth.
And it was not hte media that fed me in Texas. It was not the media that walked with me across the desert. It was not the media that fed me at the grand canyon. It was not the media, that gave a damb about me. It was the media who waited until I was upon my city to scam me, and make me look like a retard, because it promoted there filth.
Ruth, why don't you go out into the desert, never to return. Walk to your God's Temple in Eldorado and let us know if you get there. It hurts me see someone suffer the way that you do. Similar to a dog suffering next to the highway after being hit by a car. I pray for you to have peace after you are done with this life. It's surely evident that you are not living in peace in this one. Go to your God.
Black Jack, Tiddly winks and Willy Wonka
Besides that walk across the desert was facinating. The People who came to help me were human and cared. They were not like the ravaging wolf's who wait for a prey to feast upon. They were kind and compasionate. They did do a mighty mericle for me. And I only told you what I thought about the media technuiqe. And the one's in Texas, I thought I had died and God was playing a joke on me, because they were so kind. And the Indian's in the lodge at the grand Canyon, were very compasionate and loving. I think that the one's who bought me breakfast were great too. And the one who gave me twenty dollar's. And the one's who sat at a table and I was so sore, I could hardly walk, and they asked me if I would do it again, and I told them I would, if I needed too, They did cry at my love of our Prophet. Who these kind compasionate people were, I know not. And I see men spend money on dog's they would not spend on human being's. Street did again remind me of the love of friends. That is what matter's the most. It is the one's who truly care. It is the one's who care when all the chip's are down. It is the one's who offered me solace like the Poor wayfaring man did to another a long time ago. What you do for the least of these you have done unto me. I was the least in Zion. I was the least and I love my God, and I do go out into the desert and find compassion. and your sympathy sounded a lot like Dick. He told me that too. I will take you our on this desert and drop you off, way out, where you can not come back, before I will take you to the Bishop's house. And I say again, you filthy soul's who feed of other's misery, I need not your sympathy. I need not your money. I need not your condolances. I know who helped me, and who used me.
Ruth
But you still need an audience and that is about self and ego. Compassion is good, but you need professional help and its not going to come from this blog. Is it the character of the religion that keeps you coming back to battle? Is this the meaning of "keep sweet" or has this been redefined?
men in black you are a viciouse wolf. I am glad you moved to california. One less dog to deal with. And believe me, if you think that this blog in any way represent's Professional, well; fix your own life. quit trying to tell me what to do. quit telling me what I think. Quit trying to tell me what my religion consists of. Your politict's are written in filth. You said, that there was people who only cared about the money. I know there is people who only care about lies and distortion, of truth's: to feed your wicked ambition's. That is my opinion. I am entitled to this opinion. I based my opinion of what I know about you. You are not welcome to advise me. I can get free insults any where. Why would I need to pay some one to tell me I am retarded. It looks like your filthy group is doing a great Job.
Atar_i asked: "hy isn't Rachael's complaint being investigated - that's pretty lame and pathetic of the DA's office to let this one go."
I'll tell you why. The existence of emotional abuse or pressure in a relationship does not constitute a
"criminal" violation. I personally agree that Harmston sounds like the kind of person who should be prosecuted, but again, the question is: is this about prosecuting POLYGAMY, or ABUSE? Like it or not, if you prosecute polygamy because someone leaves a polygamous relationship with REGRET after INITIALLY consenting to it, are you going to prosecute monogamous or cohabiting couples?
Can a MISTRESS have her lover prosecuted because she becomes SOURED to the relationship, or later comes to the conclusion that it was an abusive relationship?
In Utah, adultery, fornication and cohabitation are ALL against the law. Adultery and fornication are misdemeanors and cohabitation is technically a felony IF one of the parties is married to someone else. So, extra-marital relationships are felony bigamy in Utah, and if Mark Shurtleff starts prosecuting "consenting adult" polygamists then he has to prosecute every person who has a mistress or an extra marital affair, because they are also defined as bigamy, AND he has to start prosecuting adultery and fornication, because they are ALSO against the law.
Where do you draw the line? The truth is, some laws are simply on the books to dictate the morality of the majority, something to which I strongly and vehemently object, and they serve no other purpose because THEY ARE NOT USED for any other purpose.
Rachael Strong has every reason to feel violated and abused by Harmston, if her story can be relied upon as true, but it does not necessarily MEET the evidentiary demands of a criminal case. If she was not consenting, then that constitutes rape, but my contact within the AG's office tells me that her case did not meet that standard. Had it met the standard, they would have prosecuted, regardless of the ages of the parties.
It amazes me how worked up people can get over one story. Thousands upon thousands of abuse stories exist about monogamy, yet at least half the nation is trying to immortalize the "one man one woman" concept into the Constitution as the ONLY legitimate marital form.
The irony and the hypocrisy.
One thing about John Llewellyn that I didn't see mentioned in this thread. John was an investigator of sex crimes BEFORE he became a polygamist himself. He has since left the religion. I don't care what his beliefs are now; he has a right to them. I take issue with his determination to ascribe his own motivations upon everyone else involved in polygamy, a process which is called "projecting." I have no idea what his motives were, but he himself says they were to salve his libido. Sometimes, though, when people become disenchanted, their perspective of the past morphs into a more negative reflection and the good experiences fade away. If I have any issue with John, it is with his need for accolades and his constant self-congratulations. I've read some of his books, and his writings always include some form of back-patting. Notice even this story about Rachael Strong is really centered around John and what JOHN did to help Rachael. I call that self-aggrandizing, and it has already generated far too much discussion in ignorance than it merited.
If you really care to learn more about Principle Voices, the group John Llewellyn refers to in this article, and what they're about, go to www.principlevoices.org. They do not support abuse, underage marriages, or bilking the tax payers. Check out their "values" and "positions on current issues page"; it is interesting.
Ruth
If I agreed to move to another posting, inspite of being the author of this one, you and OTS would simply follow me to the next and the next. You both crave an audience and if we, them or they wish to post here, both of you will be working harder than the rest of us, to have the final and or last word.
Tell you what I will start another post or string and I am willing to bet, that you will drop this thread to dominate whatever I start.
In the end new need the audience, call us what you will, but you need us more than we need you. Suggesting that you need counciling in order to bring peace and closure in your life is not a threat, nor with malice, but always gets answered that we are all filth. Is this your testimony? You accuse many of having heard theirs, but those of us who missed these church meetings can't judge those you accuse. We can read your ranting archived here and from it, determine both pain and hatred. The abuses you have discribed didn't occur from me, nor from thos in California, nor mainstream Mormons. The abuses that you discribed in your emails occured from those within the FLDS and as a great contradiction to your emails, they are those whom you now defend.
So rant on, I need to start another posting to prove, you and OTS will just move in again, like unwanted house guests.
MIB
Call a spade a spade or ???????
And I will remind you, I do not support abuse. That is being stopped. And religion is not the cause of it. And you must have an ego too. I thought when I talked to you, that you cared. I see by what you said to me, that you did. I see that you may also need counsling. You have a film, with a testiomnie on it, that a girl is afraid of her father, and the girls are removed from their home, and the man continues on like a hero. ONe think I do agree on is this; I do not need the kind of help I have been getting. Let's stop religion, and tho we all know about a certian abuse, well that is not good politicts, let's just hope the church disintagtrate's on it's own. And the District Attorney's put out a polygamy primer like we are retard's.
Thanks for all the info Jay.
I think Rachael needs to be heard, and I'm glad you sent the word out. When a woman complains, and she has a valid complaint it needs to be investigated - AND IT'S NOT.
So, it might be difficult to drop into a polygamist compound and root out polygamy - fine. BUT, those that practice it should realize that should something go sour, and someone from that union comes to make a complaint, and the complaint is valid (someone did something against the law) - then, they need to accept that is part of the risk of the lifestyle (freedom of speech, religion aside).
Ruth, it is my understanding that you live alone, that you do not raise your own children, that you have been cast out, hurt, and perhaps are/were at risk for hurting yourself or others.
Why do you so easily call everyone else filthy scum. People who are married to only one person, raising their families, obeying the laws, exercising their freedom of religion and freedom of speech just like you - why must you call them filthy names?
And, just for the record people ARE still prosecuted for being married to more than one person.
The cases I've heard of have nothing to do with LDS, just men who have women and families all across the US and when they get caught - they get in trouble with the law. Of course, if no woman complained, or alerted the media - no one would probably ever know about it. But, if a woman scorned does contact the law, and the man indeed has married more than one wife - he's up a crick.
So, if Rachael, though she be an adult, goes to the police and complains about a man who married her and he is a bigamist/polygamist (and honestly....is he her natural father - they stated he was married to her mother?) - then guess what - like it or not - she HAS a case.
You are clearly an intelligent gal Mercyia, but this is NOT an antiquated, victorian law, and it HAS been sucessfully prosecuted.
Atari,
Cause it is people like you that pick up gossip and carry it across the nation, and nobody gives a damb about the truth. I can tell you have been talking to the people who tried to destroy me. And if you think you understand correctly you are as much like Men in Black as the Filthy media. I say you have helped keep a little six year old in an abusive home. I say you are wrong about what gossip you hear. And this web page is a filthy gossip collumn, that help's keep the District attorneys from doing an honest Job. And I think that I need not debate with you agian. You are so narrow minded as far as I can tell, that you think your life style is the only thing that is good. We do not live in a compound or a cult. And this topic was about calling a spade a spade. And to make all of you my enamies, only mean's I will no longer have to listen to your insult's. I say again. This is not a Texas plolygamy talk blogg. This is a filthy scum talk blogg, that help's keep victum's victum's. I shall gladly bid you all good by. Jay Beswick know's the truth. He watched the un-edited film. I only seen a little. And all the other's that talked about the same abuse, and they were conviently branded. And the mollester's are put out on America's street's. And for Prime time to dig up my father, like it was an act of heroism, that my sister could face her father, and the past, I say, "I would be glad if I could forget the past. And he was arrested when I was seventeen and the district Attorney thought my testiominie was good enough at seventeen, but now at fourty, I am not credible. Why? Why? Because a man I met for one year, was a good looking man, an he made more money than me, But who put me out on the street? And who keep's my child condemned from ever seeing her Mother. You and your filthy scamming lies. You and your religiouse crusader's. You who take it upon yourself to take advantage of me. I lost. I told you all, I lost. I lost the day I met a man and lived with him for a year. A man who was and is sicker than My father was. I lost and your insults and sensationalism, and religiouse persicution and with holding evidence. I am not speaking to you personally Atar, but I see you as a gossip monger. I know who my freinds are. YOu are not one of them. Neither is Jay Beswick. And Neither are the men who scammed me. And they are not member's of my church. People in my church are good and kind. They are genuine. They do not stir up public opinon's against a person simply because of their religion. And I think that if this govenment was intersted in stopping abuse, they would have. And I say again, Your insults have no sway with me. I lost. I lost the day I met that man, and he destroyed my life. And none of you are my friends. none of you. YOu appear to me, as gossiping mongrels.
Ruth, you tell us in every other posting that you are not going to talk to us anymore. Then you come right back. MIB is right. You need an audience far more than you mind any insults. You call us all filthy scum so we will continue to talk to you because you think it is the only way to get a response. You say you do not want our compassion, then beg for it some more. You contradict yourself and then cover it up with another contradiction. You need serious professional help as MIB so kindly recommended. Please get it!
fttc,
You are right. I need a professional. I shall seek it. I did not realize that MIB was different than fttc. I am glad you pointed this out to me. I will tell you like it is. When I was in the hospital, I had no choice about smoking. I was infilterated because other's had a right to smoke. I was put away for what other men did. I liked these people in the hospital. The patience that is; They were america's worse. And they were more decient than the one's I lived with, that put me away for their abuse. I began to realize that in order for the insult's of these sick men, to be true, I would have had to be worse than these Poor people in lock down ward. I sang to them, and patched their britches. I liked there jokes. They were interesting. Now since I have gotten out of that hospital, and I get feeling like I am not worthy of much in life, all I have to do is get on one of these web blogg's and I realize how important life really is. I think that if I hear all you people's insult's that I am still in the catigory of humanity. I have found out, I do not need dick to call up people and spread his lies. I do not need to go to Willard's house. When I get home sick and miss my daughter, All I have to do is speak upon your blogg, and you repeat their insult's and it reminds me of why I will never go to eaither one of their houses again. Not ever. I think all you people who really, really, really, really, want a crusade against poligamy: Please, just start your religiouse crusade with him. Then maybe I would not be as disgusted with your propaganda. And you would serve two purposes at one time. YOu would be rid of the retard, and you would have an honest polygamy crusade. And you would save all the tax payers money, because the government would not have to hire a counsler, to help the retard recover. And..........
Just think what a great public service you are doing, to call me names and say rude things. Just think what money you save the tax payer's by insulting me. Just think what hero's you are. Wow, ain't America great. Free counseling. Free insult's Free counsling. And you call a spade a spade or ???????
And just think, You will not even have to hire a judge and a lawyer, to draw up the paper work behind my back. Just think of the money you save the tax payer's. YOu do not have to pay a judge, for law with no representaion. YOu do not have to hire a lawyer, with no representation. Just think You do not have to hire Dcotor's and Just think, YOu offer a free, tax free insult's. At least I have to say this about you. At least you did not cheat a lot of tax payer's there wage, by hireing these people. Just think, this is free on this web page. Just think how great a public service your insult's are. Just think, you do not have to hire a lawyer to debate this. It is free.
Besides, I was seeing what it was like to be 'good old traditional American's and critazise.' I think I like Unlce Warren's way, better; Forgive and let God judge. This certianly feel's better. I can not do any thing about dishonest people, but I can forgive and feel better. So, I forgive you all. And I shall grace my Lord, and refrain myself from your blogg.
until next time.
Ruth, all the information I have about you, came from you. I saw your poetry and your more candid personal discussions on another blog.
And, for the record - most of the negative opinions regarding polygamy are almost exclusively saved for the men - they are not meant for you.
Atar_i
You do have my apoligy. I said, what I said, I did not say this to you personally. I do not feel bad towards all men. Just lier's. And I am working on forgiving them. And for the record. I was put away for what they did. But, I was the dumb Cooke. Supossidly living in my head my father's abuse. I think that a man who would take advantage of an abused women like that is sicker than the one who origanlly abused the person. And he was grosser. My father drank, but he never did drugs. And I had some freedom's. I was not forced on drugs. I was not forced in every aspect of my life. My father was gone some of the time, too. And I had almost forgotten until that scum Prime time crew came and plastered it all over america. Do you know what it is like to live a life with people saying and thinking, "There goes so and so's, daughter." "He was a mollester." I am not his daughter really. I am my Grandmother's. She was an honorable women. She was a pioneer. She is worthy of talking about. She was very smart too. I am going to live in her old house. She was named Ruth. She was married to WArren. I like this. I like my Grand-mother. WEll any how. I know you may not understand Celetial Marriage, but I can feel that you may care some.
FILTH - LIES - MUCK, over and over again. I feel like I'm reading a Monty Python script.
Y'know what just buggs me? When people gripe and moan about the "tax abuses" and the "walfare" abuses" *gasp* Horror! What shall we do? OUR TAXES dollars at work, suporting citizens of our own country!!! When we know we have a whole world to tend and aggitate and pay to fight our troops who are destroying them, so we can turn around and rebuild their cities......etc.
America is so cocky. We think we are so smart that we can dictate the "morals" of this entire world. It has always amazes me how the smart-ass media can portray an entire country as "starving" or "Oppressed" or "terrorist" or "In-need-of-a-good-blowing-up- by our ever-omnipresent protector, Dear Uncle Sam" =>
And the thing that just really gets me is the way "THEY" portray the "attrocities"...it's always "The Cheel-drun" who are the ones who are suffering. And we holy Americans only need to hear once that "The Cheel-drun" are being mistreated or are suffering from neglect, or poverty, OR, Higher-being help us, they are taught, FROM THEIR YOUTH *gasp* the RELIGION of their Fathers! And you know it is OUR DUTY to protect the "Cheel-drun" of the world.
All the BIG MEDIA has to do to get us on our righteous indignation is to show us a pair of those sweet little eyes, you know the ones--they have worked in achieving all kinds of things since the first baby neanderthal Crawled ashore.(or whatever it was)
Well I just wonder if anyone has looked into just how many taxes those people in Colorado City/Hildale pay. I think if any of us had the tax burden on our heads that they have, We would get the Media in here right now to show the world how our "Cheeld-run" aren't gonna see another Christmas in the lap of luxury-- OH, BOO-HOO-HOO!
From June 2002 through June 2003 the Arizona Attorney General's office reports 8 million tax dollars in welfare services have gone to support polygamy.
During this year, 80% of Colorado City has received food stamps totaling 2.3 million dollars.
5 million dollars in free healthcare and an additional $660,000 in tax dollars were funneled in to the community.
In total the residents of Colorado City, the entire community, only paid 72 thousand dollars combined in taxes.
Where do your figures come from? The amount you say was paid by CC is not even equal to the property taxes. Then you have other hidden taxes. It does not sound realistic.
Now before Street agrees with me and starts to slobber all over my statement, I am convinced CC takes in much more than they pay out. Somebody give the numbers from the records. If Anon 9:48 is correct MIB is more than right.
OTS - your first sentence made sense - but you lost me after that - I know you can do it - I honestly think you want to sound crazy sometimes.
And Anon 4:02 - what's with the accent on children (cheel drun) I don't get it. I read your whole thing, but I can't connect the dots. You seem to be quite upset, you have very strong feelings, you mention all sorts of different things - but I don't understand the bottom line of what you are trying to communicate.
Atar
I think OTS called it "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED!"
Atar_i:
The Great Media Hyperbole is the emphasis on children and abuses and attrocities inflicted upon them. The whole nation is fed the "propaganda", for lack of a better word, of whatever great cause the media are involved in. Then, to further enunciate the portended "evils", they show us, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the children are being made to suffer. And the way the reporters say it, when they REALLY want to incite an outcry of indignation, they stressss the word, hence, "cheel-drun".....
Don't tell me you believe all that the media dishes out to you. Surely you have been involved in, or have had first-hand knowledge of, an incident wherein the media took a story and twisted the facts to the extent that they were unrecognizable. This is the way to SELL, SELL, SELL!
So my point is this:
My tax dollars are being spent to support our fellow Americans....they are sent to school, they are awarded grants to further education, they are even fed and clothed, and given health care!
I love to see the citizens of my Country provided for. I love when I see my hard-earned money STAYING HERE to benefit the less-fortunate among us.
Can't I, in my priveleged state, share with those in need? Don't they come into the work-force and return that to me? I enjoy our beautiful parks, our streets and highways, and YES! I very often get BACK from the government almost every cent I put in!
Are we really going to snivel when our money supports the people of our own country, rather than sending it to arm the foriegn countries we are at war with?
I feel to report crimes and abuses when I am made aware of them, HOWEVER, I have no business deciding how many children a person should have, or whether they are teaching them according to my beliefs and opinions. I see daily parents who are incompetent, in my OPINION, who are out there making horrible mistakes that many children won't recover from. Is it my place to jump in and fix every social problem in America? Am I so virtuous that I am able to dictate the standards by which the goodness or badness of human actions and character are measured?
Must we, as parents, be under the moral scrutiny of the POPULAR OPINION? Who sets our maxims?? Do you agree with the education of our children? Are there things that we were taught as children,i.e; Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, Tooth Fairy, that we later learned were lies? And how many of us are irrevocably damaged by the fact that our parents LIED?
It's time to mind our own business. There are many crimes being perpetrated on the young, the innocent and the gullible. I feel to protect my children from abuse as I can, and teach them the moral codes I believe to be right and just, and explain to them that there are many conflicting opinions of ethical decorum. And the sense of propriety in one society greatly differs in another.
It is so amazing how we take our freedom of press to try to remove others freedom of religion. And to justify it by exclaiming that someone else took away anothers freedom.....
to 9:48:
whoever gave you the tax figures was so grossly mistaken. This is a matter of public record. Look at the property taxes payed by the individual cities. That figure is into the millions. What about the rest of the taxes? And it's my understanding that the FLDS church itself is not exempt from any taxes....Oh, they pay. They definately pay their share of taxes.
Hey does anybody know what has happened to Truman Barlow's family? Are they being split up and remarried and where has Karen gone?
Anon
Thanks for the reply, I now understand what you are saying.
I realize that my tax dollars go to those in our country that need it. I am aware, and agree with that. There is a system set up whereby the government decides who financially meets the criteria for help.
Of course, there are those that lie (a stripper who makes 100,000 a year because the money is 'under the table' can qualify for welfare and get her birth control pills for free because she only claims $10,000 income per year).
All I ask is that the women of polygamy do not lie. They are married, and they need to state that they are. They need to provide their spouses income.
And again, how do you know they lie. The government checks every thing with a fine tooth comb, for food stamps. On the form every person living in the home is listed. I think the media has pulled a fast one. And why they pull the public funds to feed their own pocket's, who really was hurt. THE CHILDREN. All at once the government, at the complaint of a person, with no investigation's, a Judge has condemned children from their home. And they suffer the most horrible pain's of homesickness. And Who benifitted. Some-one? Only a few. A Jugde. A lawyer. A squabbler. And American's have there sensationalism.
You know Atar_i, I can't speak for every plural wife, but I will say that most would give anything in the world to acknowledge that they are "married" and are not "single". Technically, they are not married, and they can be accused of "fraud" if they say that they are; they can be accused of "fraud" if they say they aren't. It's a catch-22. Some want them to "admit" they are "married", but others resent it because they do not recognize any marital form whatsoever but legally sanctioned, monogamous unions. In general, the service providers themselves are not the ones who give a damn about this. They are there to provide the service, and they'll do whatever they can to help a woman/family fill out the forms, and walk them through the process, and make the services available if the requirements for qualification are met.
I personally believe every family should be assessed as a whole family, and each plural wife should be free to acknowledge her relationship with her committed partner openly, as should any cohabiting "single" person. It is actually not that different from committed, cohabiting couples, except there are three or four instead of two.
Some of the communities have formed committees to help their members properly fill out government forms where there may be some confusion (and there is some because the forms are designed for either a monogamously married individual or a single individual), to help them make referrals for abuse, or to receive whatever help they need if they are the victims of abuse, to receive resources and other support if they are leaving a polygamous marriage, etc.
Centennial Park and the Davis County Co-op have already invited DCFS and other state agencies, including medical professionals, into their communities for trainings in how to recognize and address abuse, as well as providing parenting classes for families.
Centennial Park, in particular, have a high education rate in their community, and many women who are nurses. They have been well-trained in how to recognize abuse, and they also know their duty to report abuse and take it seriously.
The AUB has historically reported abusers to law enforcement, and taken steps to discipline/excommunicate them from their organization.
The three communities and many Independents are actually working together to help each other address the needs of their members. The FLDS and the Harmston followers are not.
And let me clarify, people ARE being prosecuted for having multiple spouses with MULTIPLE MARRIAGE LICENSES. They are NOT being prosecuted for having a long-term mistress (and even children with that mistress) alongside a legal spouse. That, in Utah, is considered bigamy by the same cohabitation language that polygamy is bigamy. You do NOT have to have multiple marriage licenses, neither do you have to consider yourself "married" to more than one person to violate Utah's bigamy statute. You simply need to first be married to one person, then cohabit with another. Those relationships exist all over the place, and the state would be opening a can of worms to start prosecuting every single person who carries on extra marital affairs.
In a perfect world, these families would be treated like any other families, and the wives would be able to safely acknowledge they are wives.
On the one hand, because a woman becomes disenchanted with her choice to enter a polygamous relationship, or the relationship is an abusive one and she chooses to leave it, you would say, "Prosecute them, that is the risk they take when they break the law", but on the other hand, you want plural wives to openly acknowledge their relationships without also recognizing the extreme risk they take in doing so, a risk that their beloved "husbands" could be prosecuted should someone become disenchanted or the relationship deteriorate and end in divorce.
Many a divorcing party would jump at the chance to string up the "ex" the way a disenchanted plural wife can stir up public animosity and sentiment with a tale of woe.
I want to make one additional thing clear: I do not know Jim Harmston, but I detest what I hear about him and the way he "practices" polygamy.
How many men in general are manipulative, emotionally abusive and who use money and sex as a tool to control their wives? And yet, those behaviors, as detestible as they are, are NOT criminal offenses. They justify divorce, and can justify a protective order (but generally only if there is some physical threat), but not prosecution. Why should anyone wonder at the lack of evidence in the Rachael Strong case of anything other than polygamy? And WHY SHOULD THE POLYGAMY BE THE CRIME THAT IS PROSECUTED WHEN CLEARLY IT IS THE OTHER OFFENSES THAT ARE THE PROBLEM?
10:03
I agree with what you say, except that People in Colorado City and Hildale Utah, do prosicute all they think are crimnal's. They also excomunicate all predator's. They also have government regulating all government department's, like food stamps and welfare. They also have government regulation's on wick and They just put in another office to servace this comunity. And in every house that recieve's government aid, they have to fill out the same government form's. They may not state, that they are married, but they have to list every soul in the house and their income. And if the State was to prosicute all polygamists and cohabitator's, and Drug addicts, I think there would be about a one percent of the population left upon the street. If they were to prosicut every person who cohabitaed, they would have to arrest aproximately ninty nine percent of the people: And who may I ask is going to build a jail this big? I am not afraid to say, I support Multiple wives. I say you are right about one thing. If they were going to arrest people for cohabataing, they are opening the greatest can of worm's in the nation. It was one thing, in ninteen fifty three, when Our church was small, and it was ok, to prosicute a church, but today, there are so many people who live in a cohabatating attitude, that monogamy is a minority. And we can not prosicute monogamy now, can we? That would be persicution. And frankly, I do not know any plural people who would get a government marriage. It used to be, that the government marriage ment something, but now the government regulates every thing and marriage has no value. And as far as I can tell the only reason a person would get a government marriage is to qualify for government assistance if they should get a divorce and that would give them fuel to fight with their partner, over their children, like their children are not human, but object's to give the maddest partner fuel. And if you love some one, you would never sue them. And abuse is when some one is taking advantage of another. And if they could hire some one to slander them more, they are still in an abusive position. I think that it is ok, to use government to regulate the Tax to pave roads and help those who need help, but to regulate a relationship? Frankly I think it is none of their business. Since law is based on who can pay the best and having a lawyer that can represent some one, there is no honest law. I think that if they are going to regulate things in a court, they should do it honestly, and pay all equally and hire some one who cared about humanity and not who followed their regulations the most. I think that an abuse case should be investigated, and religion left out. And I think that honest people would never hire a lawyer.
I guess it's just my .02 but I think if you can't provide for your children, you should stop having them. I know in FLDS women don't use birth control, but you can abstain (if marriage was ots's way - I think there would be no children in polygamy - what with all the 'immaculate conception').
Amen to that Atar!
atar_i: "I think if you can't provide for your children, you should stop having them."
Oh, I FULLY agree. Would there even be a need for welfare if this were the case?
:o)
Ah, but life happens, and life brings unexpected twists and turns that cannot always be precipitated.
LOL, I meant "anticipated", not "precipitated."
And nobody that I know of uses this Idea of immaculate conception. How weird is that any-how. We are not chicken's. And a person who would reveal their personal relatioship, is weird also. What weirdness people say. And I think that a person should take care of their children. I think that if a man can not controle himself, he is a moron. And I think that if a woman can not controle herself she is a moron. Self controle is definatly a must. And teaching children self controle is important. But, then the reallity of every one being decient is like living in a fantasy land.
I agree. It is written that In the begining, God made man. He made them after his own image. Jesus was born like all man and God is his father. He had the power of life and death in his hand. He was a man. He is still a man, But in all his glory and has triamphed over death. He is about to return in all his glory and the earth is on the brink of resting. It is the few remaining midnight hour's before the millianial reign. All those who fight will be destroyed. All those who have faught for his destruction and the destruction of his ways are about to know him, personally, again. It is written, "Every knee shall bend and every tounge confess that he is the Christ." And it is written, be fooled by no man. For he will come again in all his glory. It is written in the Bible. It is written in the Book of Morman. It was spoken about by every Prophet upon the earth. And now you will see this. It is written, the seasons will be mixed. They will cry peace and there will be none, and Only a remnant of the house of Isreal will be left. IT will be those who truly live the Law of Christ. It could not be any other way. God does not force. The devil can not. There-fore you have a choice. Did you Pick up a sword and try to cheat your neighbor, or did you promote peace. I did not write the books. YOu did not write the books. do not worry tho, God has said, I have prepared a place for all people. I think those who want war, will be put with people who want war, and they will be contending eternally. But those who want peace shall live in eternal Peace. Why do you supose this is so? Because that is what you chose. And the Law of Christ is perfect. And the seasons are mixed. The ice melts in the North. War is uon the land. And in Zion, there shall be peace. God has declared it.
I agree, and it is not nateral for people to tinker with the nateral things of God.
Isn't there a reference in the Bible that says the marriage bed is not defiled? I can't think offhand for scripture references, but OTS, your need to defend this sterile idea of marriage without intercourse as some higher form of marriage is absurd and requires leaps of twisted logic.
It's disturbing that you have such an antagonistic and bent view of sexuality and conception of children. It does not surprise me that your women drop their husbands at the mere instruction of your prophet; what affection exists in your marriages? What bonds? What commitment beyond obedience to Warren? What warmth? What joy?
Sex within the bonds of marriage is not a sin, and the "marriage bed" is not defiled. A husband and a wife are entitled to love each other. Is there any greater commandment than to love? Jesus said to love others as you love yourself, which by extension suggests that it is an understood that you will love yourself first, then love others as you love yourself. I'm not talking sexually or physically here, but expressions of physical love, like gentle and nurturing touches and tender hugs and kisses, are in NO WAY a sin to God, and are, in fact, outward expressions of what is felt inside.
You consistently refer to sex as GROSS. Well, in the way you all practice it with turkey basters and sterile interaction of the spouses, I'm not at all surprised you think of it as gross. I am, however, very surprised that any person in this day and age would even THINK to defend such a practice. Do you realize that if your minor girls are "marrying" then impregnating themselves with turkey basters (if, by whatever stretch of the imagination that can even be possible!), that this is nothing short of "object rape"? Who is teaching these young women to do this? Their husbands? Their mothers? What kind of instruction are they receiving, and how can you possibly JUSTIFY that kind of instruction as PURE and HOLY and according to GOD, but natural intercourse GROSS!?!?
Merycia, please do not think that just because street harps on it and goes on and on ad nauseum, that his perverted ideas of marriage and sex are taught or practiced in short creek. I am no longer "in the fold" but let me assure you that street is the only one who has ever said anything about such disgusting bunk. While I will not attempt to defend Warren in the rest of his perversions of the religion, I will say that he never said to not have sex with your wives. He DID try to control when, where, and how, but he did NOT say not to do it and that children would be conceived with the immaculate conception thing.
For everyone out there who really wants to know the truth, my advice is to IGNORE onthestreet and quit baiting him to vomit forth his perversion of Warren's perversion.
Been there done that, I appreciate your cogent response. I am a very tolerant person, generally, and I usually do not rise to the bait, but I have honestly never come across anyone actively preaching such gibberish...
I have a clue to Street. He doesn't believe JS, he doesn't beleive any of the Mormon scriptures, he doesn't believe the Bible. His scripture is the INTERNET! No wonder he is so confused.
Been there
Good advice but Street does keep some dialogue going when things get quiet in CC/YFZ. And he is fun to bait. It would be awful quiet here if he started to live what he claims to believe.
fttc, I realize that street is a diversion, somewhat akin to taunting the autistic boy in the schoolyard and taking his toys, but in the interest of not perpetuating some salacious lies and horrible pictures of people, some of whom are my dear friends and relatives, I was just wondering if maybe we could give street a little rest. At least acknowledge that what he says has NOTHING to do with the people out there and his version of reality is completely skewed. That way, people won't think he represents the people we are trying to help by having this dialogue in the first place.
Thank you Mugwump.
Been there
You are right. Thank you. Sometimes it is easy for me to forget there are people who really believe Street is representing the folks still in the FLDS. Those of us who have been "in" know he does not. It needs to be made clear to all reading here that many of his ideas are far beyond what the average person there (CC/YFZ) believes. He does base much of what he says on warrens teaching, he just takes it even further. Your description was perfect: a perversion of warren's perversion of our religion. And your picture of the autistic child brings me a little shame. I will leave him alone now.
If Street is using the Turkey Baster defense, maybe he is William Black. He is the only one in the FLDS who used such an absurd defense.
You can keep quessing about street. Any one who knows any thing about William Black would not mistake any thing street says to William Black. Street may have some Ideas about things that I do not agree with, But William Black is pure filth and would never utter a good thing.
Street uses the turkey baster offense.
And fttc, it is shocking that you also think to speak, like you are connected to Short Creek. Your river runneth black.
And for the record, the honest people in Colorado City and Hildale Utah, would never participate on this blogg. They would be doing some thing good and worth-while. And that includes me. If I was totaly honest, I would have never gotten on this filthy blogg. And participated in it's filth. It carrys a filthy spirit.
Reply to Anon at 9/15/2005 1:11 PM
whoever gave you the tax figures was so grossly mistaken. This is a matter of public record. Look at the property taxes payed by the individual cities. That figure is into the millions. What about the rest of the taxes? And it's my understanding that the FLDS church itself is not exempt from any taxes....Oh, they pay. They definately pay their share of taxes.
_____________________
The figures came from the Arizona Attorney Genera'l office. I highly doubt that his office "was so grossly mistaken".
During this year, 80% of Colorado City has received food stamps totaling 2.3 million dollars.
5 million dollars in free healthcare and an additional $660,000 in tax dollars were funneled in to the community.
In total the residents of Colorado City, the entire community, only paid 72 thousand dollars combined in taxes.
The numbers quoted - $72,000 - paid in taxes were the total amount paid in INCOME TAXES by everyone in Colorado City during this time period.
It has nothing to do with PROPERTY TAXES paid.
In America, if you earn a wage from working, you must pay income taxes. It is not necessary to own property in America, but if you do, you probably pay property taxes in most situations.
But the point is that many hundreds of citizens in Colorado City, Arizona received over 8 million dollars in services provided by income taxes paid by all citizens, but these Colorado City citizens only paid in $72,000 in income taxes.
This just goes to show that other people are paying to financially support the citizens of Colorado City. Those people are not pulling their weight. They are just mooching off of the general public.
The other point is that the FLDS church is a non-profit religious orgnization and I am not sure that they pay ANY income taxes. The UEP pays property taxes, but this is not the same thing as paying income taxes. Yet, so many of their members receive welfare, WIC, Food stamps and Free medical services - PAID FOR BY OTHER PEOPLE.
Merycia
Centennial Park, in particular, have a high education rate in their community, and many women who are nurses. They have been well-trained in how to recognize abuse, and they also know their duty to report abuse and take it seriously.
The AUB has historically reported abusers to law enforcement, and taken steps to discipline/excommunicate them from their organization.
You state that "the AUB has historically reported abusers to law enforcement".
You say that Centennial Park knows "how to recognize abuse, and they also know their duty to report abuse and take it seriously."
Who do the Centennial Park group report the abuse to?
Doesn't the AG still get all their information from Flora, or did something change.
My comments regarding Centennial Park and the AUB were not intended to be used against each other. When I referred to Centennial Park, I was specifically talking about their nurses. My understanding is that those in the medical profession are required to report abuse to DCFS/CPS, but since I am not from Centennial Park, I don't know what Arizona's requirements are.
Since I know they also have very good schools there, I would also assert that their teachers and administrators know well THEIR responsibility to report abuse. I believe Centennial Park has a social services committee organized, also, that has been working with the state to assure that people within their community have a safe place to go, and resources available, should they need them. When I said they know their responsibility to report abuse, I meant it. They know what constitutes abuse, and who they are required to report to.
Anon 8:07
Thank you for clarifying. Using the Income Tax for camparison of pay in to take out is the best way to illustrate your point as that is where the welfare money comes from. Property taxes pretty much fund the local government. Welfare comes from federal government. I don't have a hard time believing your tax figures now. It is pathetic how much welfare our people are receiving.
I agree, the school is very competant and all the teachers. I agree, that centenial park has a lot of very competant people, as do Colorado City and Hildale Utah. And I am also wondering if the District Attorney is getting information from any one besides Flora, or if the Public was getting information from Flora and the Media tricks and putting pressure on them. At any rate, I am as curiouse as any one else if Flora is still the law in the area. And as for myself, I seriously doubt I ever call a cop as long as I was live. And I would never servive a trial, and facing an abuser. This weakness would cause me to lose, so why humilate myself again. But I think that to do what the media has done has hurt every abused person greatly. They have twisted truths and THERE ARE A LOT OF VERY GOOD PROFESSIONAL PEOPLE IN THIS AREA.
It is not hard for me to beieve Sam Roundy did not know he was supposed to report. I wonder how he ever became the Chief of Police. When I ran into some trouble Sam came down on the wrong side of the written law. Funny thing was when I contested what he wanted me to do he did not go the the code book. He went to Uncle Rulon. U. Rulon knew more about the law than Sam did, he supported me in my position which turned out to be correct.
What a surprise!
PHOENIX A former Colorado City Police chief told investigators that he never notified child-welfare authorities in Utah of sexual abuse cases he investigated in two polygamist towns along the Arizona strip.
According to records released last week, Sam Roundy told an investigator for the Arizona Peace Officer Standards and Training Board that he failed to notify state authorities about the 20 to 25 child sexual abuse cases he's investigated over the years in Colorado City and Hildale, Utah.
Per comments by Merycia, Centennial Park needs to report the circumstances of that Halloween Night "hit and run" of one of their 15 year old daughters then, in 2002. Its a sticking point of trust not yet gained. Its not a pick and chose of what should get reported and allowing the perps. to get away with such crimes, often allows the past to repeat itself.
Judge Walter Steeds son, sound familiar?
I can think of a dozen episodes that were not reported or poorly dealt with in a coverup. Centennial Park needs to report abuses as well.
MIB
Hmmm...
OTS said;
You're the one who MOVED, all the way to the edge of the continent, ready to be washed, or shall I say dumped, when California does a graceful and terrific slide into the Pacific.
And both Rulon and Warren preached the sun was a spiritual place, not a mass of gasses and fire. California will sink into the ocean after Warren takes his belief to the sun. I think we can pass the hat and pay for his ride in space toward the sun. If his theories like that of Rulon's are correct, he won't break into a sweat! On the other hand, as he approaches that big firey ball, he might decide a mistake was made.
OTS tell these folks about what Warren teaches of the Sun! Celestrial WHAT?
MIB---
You are the last person who should want to uncover old cover-ups!!
If, or rather, WHEN all of your wingdings are brought to light, and your stirrings unmask your own corruption, Well, Dude! you are going to look like the pimple on the Butt of Society!
Some of my Uncles had a idea of some quote of John Taylor...that they should not let a year go by that a child was not born in to celestial (plural) marriage. Many old timers have the same idea.
These guys would have a child every year and lived in some of the poorest conditions in town. As the children got bigger, the circumstances got better because of more help from the children working.
I certainly don't think this is a good idea...but they feel it is a mission from God and will totally wipe themselves out doing it. It really isn't that easy to raise a big family.
I was just stating the FACTS.
God is within every person. He is the still small voice that tells you what is right and wrong. What he tells me is different than what he tells you.
absolutely beyond normal comprehension, he avidly supports jeffs and acts as THE spokesman for god. which god he doesn't say.
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