Tuesday, July 26, 2005

Participate

If you would like to participate in this blog. Please register as a regular contributor, email texaspolygamy@sccn2.net. This is Democracy in action. Everyone needs to contribute to help make this a big picture.

41 comments:

ATAR_i said...

You can also go to the bottom of this page (under the large 'leave your comment box' at the bottom).

There is a place (under username and password)it says.

No Blogger account? Sign up Here.

click the sign up here part.

If you wish to remain anonymous. Go to Hotmail.com and establish an account using a nickname. They are free and it shouldn't take more than a few minutes.

Come back here, and use that email as your registration email.

fttc said...

It is probably a vain hope to think any of warren's faithful will come on here as a registered user. He has taught that you cannot discuss religion with an 'apostate' without apostatizing yourself. We know the real reason is that he cannot stand any scrutinizing. If the truth is placed before his people they would be able to see in an instant that warren is a hoax.

To any thinking person this would raise a red flag. They have chosen to put on their reality shades and look beyond the mark. There seems to be a belief that "warren will be responsible if we are doing wrong" attitude. People will be held responsible for their own actions. We cannot blame 'the prophet' for what we do or don't do.

It would be good for the dialogue to see anonymous comments returned. I understand why they were removed, but these people live such a double standard life and under such paranoia that you will not convince very many that warren cannot trace them if they register.

ATAR_i said...

Yeah - it doesn't actually even seem to exist anymore.

fttc said...

It is not only Hitler he is similar to. Read "Animal Farm" for those in the know there is a person in the FLDS for every character in that short book.

On closer examination you will find similarities to nearly every dictator that seized power through-out known history. It is only the self-inflicted ignorance of the people of the FLDS that keep them from seeing it.

fttc said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
fttc said...

I did not read "Animal Farm" by George Orwell until after I had left the FLDS. I could not get over how it fit. It is frightening how every part has a character in today's show with the FLDS. It was written in allegorical satire of the communist socialist takeover of Russia. I would recommend it for anyone who is or was FLDS.

It can be read online at http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/animalfarm

Anonymous said...

Mugwump.....

You're turning into a long-winded, self-righteous pain-in-the-ax.

Why don't you and OTS find a room somewhere?

ATAR_i said...

I wish the "anonymous" who pound on their chests and berate others - but are unwilling to even peek out from underneath their rock with a pseudonym would stop belittling others.

If you're not willing to take accountability for your own posts by leaving a signature of some sort - you probably aren't worth listening to.

Muggy has had some great words, you might disagree - but I'd like to see you express your opinions as eloquently, and put a pseudonym on it (if not a name).

I agree with mugs on several points - but when I think of Maslows Heirarchy of Needs - I remember that it is shaped like a pyramid (for illustrative reasons only - not religious)

The first need must be met - before you can go on to the rest.

The first need is physiological -air, sleep, food, water, shelter - basically sustenance. All of the FLDS should have that.

The second is safety - and I think that need is NOT being met - and in many cases - you cannot proceed on unless this need is met. Meaning - the security of home and family and even profession is in jeopardy - people don't feel safe.

The third is love - if you have your physiological needs met, you feel save - you can begin to fulfill your love and belongingness. FLDS, the group you have associated with for so long, now doesn't want you - where is your safe secure place? insecurity creeps in. People need to be loved and to belong - then they can move on to...

Your esteem needs - self esteem (from competence or mastery of a task, and second attention and recognition from others).

And lastly Self - actualization or basically becoming everything that your are capable of becoming - maximizing potential - seeking out learning experiences.

So - I suppose encouraging a teenage girl to go on and get a great education - and making that my goal - would be to overlook the fact that she doesn't feel safe, doesn't feel loved, and has poor self esteem. Those areas need to be the building blocks.

We start with SAFETY - making people feel safe. I think in order to change, people will have to begin to feel safe again.

Anonymous said...

The problem I see mugwump, is that your sterotype of the flds "cricker" is horribly skewed by the sensational media stories, authors like crackhour or what ever his name is, flora's brand of ravings, and pissed off ex-pligs, activists, reporters, bloggers, and lookie-lu's etc, etc.

It's terrible how people are so willing to suck up on all the smut. The prejudice is really something.

With the law, it's innocent until proven guilty, but with the media and public opinion it's guilty until proven innocent.

If someone tells you that most of these people are "normal" you dont even want to belive it.

It's kind of like having your intimate "autobiograpy" writen by your angry ex-wife. There would be enough truth to make life miserable and enough error to make you roll your eyes on every page.

So what do you? Write another book to try to confirm what you agree with and untell each lie and mis-reperesentation one by one. It only gets worse.

Everyone has a little dirty laundry, and none of it looks good run up the flagpole.

Why don't ya'll just assume that unless you actually know otherwise; that people are, smart, educated, free, happy, religious, moral, well adjusted, law abiding, and minding thier own business. You'd be right more often than not.

Granted warren has made a mess that needs an "adjustment" but this public image of deluded lost ignorant souls is not accurate.

Nothing but a birth certificate for a complaint is what is really disgusting.

fttc said...

Anon 12:10

I can go with you on the lack information coming from within the FLDS. But I don't think anyone can comprehend how someone who has all the platitudes you list can behave as the FLDS has. Christ said by their fruits you shall know them.

I don't doubt there are those who follow warren out of fear. But this does not show a well adjusted personality. Where would we be today if every man who had some fear in their heart cowered down and did nothing to promote what they beleived to be right. Our countries history is full of men who put their fears aside and took care of business to maintain our freedoms.

Anonymous said...

I think it was General Patton who said, "You don't win wars by dying for your country, You win wars by making the other bastard die for his."

Anonymous said...

Straight Shot Says,
To persecuted, dirty laundry run up on the flagpole anonymouse -- Just think about this for a minute.

These birth certificates you're talking about - would they be registrations of babies born to underage girls who were assigned to men who already had wives? Would these girls have been under the age of 18 when they were impregnated by said men??

Are all of the men in CC Elders in the FLDS or CP/CC (I know they aren't all the same place and don't all believe exactly the same thing - except that in all these groups males are ordained to the "priesthood" when they are twelve and NOONE RECEIVES A WIFE - EVEN ONE WIFE UNLESS THEY HAVE BEEN ORDAINED TO THE MELCHEZIDEK PRIESTHOOD INTO THE OFFICE OF AN ELDER IN THE CHURCH.)

I don't have any idea what other kinds of position in the FLDS structure of things these men had but I do know that everyone of these men would be Elders in their church and as such are in a position of "trust and authority" over all members of the community. As such they are bound to safegaurd the children of their Church and Community -- not impregnate them - even if they try to use the excuse that their prophet made them do it.

There is not another town, county, State, or province in North America where so many Elders, Priests, Teachers (and I mean School Teachers) Principal's, and City Officials and Police Officers have EVER BEEN ABLE TO GO FREE FOR DECADES AFTER COMMITTING THESE ACTS.

The Governments have stated that they aren't going after polygamy itself - so quite whinging and whining. Just because, as in the publicized case of Dan Barlow Junior he got off with a ridiculous sentence of no more than 3 months of actual jail time for molesting 5 of his daughters doesn't mean that the crimes against children there will go unpunished forever.

Men who are Elders go to jail for impregnating females under the age of 18 in the real world. If this Elder was younger and there was the proper parental consent then there would be no problem. But when said Elders are older and already have wives and children - it is a crime.

Welcome to America - the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave. And quit thinking that freedom of religion exempts you anymore than Catholic Priests are exempted for their abuses of children in their trust. And don't try to say -- "Oh but they are loved and their children are loved and wanted and sacred and chosen and elect - not like all the homeless children in the wicked world!"

That's old and tired and not the point at all. All responsible careing adults in North America are trying to remedy this problem as well. Its not possible to sit back and pretend it doesn't matter when you are truly part of a county, state, and country where there is the love Christ expected people to have for each other.

ATAR_i said...

I would probably agree that many in FLDS are more normal than not. Normal doesn't make the news as much - we see the more outrageous acts of the FLDS. Why? Because that's exactly what they are - unbelievable.

What I find the most compelling in YOUR situation - is that your LEADER is one of the individuals doing the most outrageous, unbelievable acts, and encouraging others to do so.

I think in mainstream America, in most religions - you would find that when a leader behaves innappropriately or encourages others to do so - he is held to a higher set of standards, more accountability - and more light is brought to the matter. One of his followers could do much the same thing, and probably hide it for longer because of his anonymity.

However, the leader, is just that - sometimes a moral compass, but usually the one who is encouraging those who follow him to act in a moral, ethical, righteous manner - not causing themselves or anyone else to stumble.

Your situation is different - in that your leader is asking you to stumble, asking you to throw away your moral compass, asking you to do things that are unimaginable - and even more astounding - people are DOING THEM.

I'm sure some of the stories are sensationalized - but, the meat of the situation even without any of the frills - is still morally bankrupt.

The meat

girls who are young (too young) are given to men who are old, and already have wives.

the frills

how the girl tried to escape, how she felt pressured, how the new wife treated her, how she couldn't run away.

The objective data - without any of her subjective feelings (though they might be true or sensationalized) is what is burying your group.

On objective data alone - many of your group are committing crimes against the weakest members of your own society. I'd say the moral compass needs to be resurected - quickly.

fttc said...

Atar

That was very well said. I couldn't agree more.

fttc said...

Mugwump

I have to take exception to your comments on the LDS scriptures not being valid in argument because they are not accepted as divine by some. I have to add a side note about OTS and Ruth; they have made quotes supposedly from our scriptures that have been skewed beyond recognition. With that said these are our scriptures whether you accept them or not. If you want to truly understand you will have to bear with what you consider a hoax. It is not much different than me listening to your interpretation of the Bible. You cannot understand the customs of the orthodox Jew without some understanding of the Torah; the muslims and the Koran; the Hindu and their beief system.

Joseph Smith and his teachings are what we found our beliefs on. If you want to understand what makes us tick you have to be willing to view our scriptures from our viewpoint.

fttc said...

4:27

So is the "other bastard" your children? I guess I don't get your point. None of the men who I refer to as cowering are doing anything to dethrone warren.

Anonymous said...

I don't mean to advocate violence. Just making the point that if you don't survive, whats the difference?

The other bastard is the one shooting back trying to take you out. Is that you?

fttc said...

I have thought it was warren. That's why it didn't make sense. If you feel I am shooting at you it is because I have struck a chord of truth.

fttc said...

And by the way there are thousands of American soldiers that didn't survive that made a lot of difference. Is it better to live under opression and tyranny than to die fighting it? If you answer yes you are a coward. If someone knows warren is doing wrong and they do not stand up to it I consider them a coward. They are not worthy of the freedom they have lost.

ATAR_i said...

Just making the point that if you don't survive, whats the difference?

Are you listening to what you are saying?

As a mother, as a human - I know - I WILL NOT SURVIVE on this earth past the 100 year mark - probably. NONE of us survive.

It's not the dying in life though - which dictates how I live. It's the living of life. What legacy do I leave behind for my children? You will leave one to.

I question some of the decisions of my ancestors - decisions which caused generations of pain for their decendents. I wonder if they knew how much devestation would be attributed to their actions - would they behave otherwise?

My mother changed our destiny by her decisions. In the stories I tell my children - my mother is a heroine. Some ancestors are more sad and pathetic figures, unable or unwilling to be like my mother.

So, you can choose to "survive", and believe that your actions are in your best interest, and perhaps for your life span - that might be true. But, I doubt that. Standing up and making a difference has never been easy - would you put that off on your children and grandchildren because you are to weak? Or will you stand up - make a difference, face some adversity - and leave the legacy of one who made a difference.

Anonymous said...

I wasn't saying there wouldn't be any difference. But you have to think about what difference you can really make.

Ya'll seem to have it all figured out, but sometimes the people who believe the lies are in worse shape than those who told them in the first place. At least until the final judgement day.

A mob of vigilanties is usually composed of ignorant ill informed members of the public who have been incensed by propoganda. They rush headlong into taking the Law into thier own hands, so that "justice" can be done. And NOW.

Atar-i is usually very objective. Mugwump isn't. Thats my take.

ATAR_i said...

Anon, you might not make the kind of difference that will hit the papers - or land you in Time magazine.

But each stand, builds upon the next stand. You might not make the *big* difference - BUT, the difference you make, might be the catalyst for another person to stand tall - and so forth, until a chain of events leads someone in the right place at the right time - to change EVERYTHING.

So, don't be disheartened - and don't ever believe the lie that what you have to give isn't enough - and thus isn't important.

Directly, you might only influence one or two, indirectly you might save ten thousand.

Do what YOU can, what is in your power. Make the changes to be everything you need to be, and an example to those who need good examples. Live and stand tall, making decisions that are right, true, moral and something you would want to sign your name to.

Help others make those changes to, be there as a support to them, to hold them up when they are weak - YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

rumor-has-it said...

If you have read Stephen R Covey's Book "The Eight Habit" it helps with the understanding that every voice counts.
This blog is a great way to express personal opinions and to learn how to deal with the facts and opinions of others. The more people that add their opinion, the bigger the picture is for all of us.

ATAR_i said...

OTS <------ hunc tu caveto, advocatus diaboli

absit invidia

ATAR_i said...

Wow - that's profound - you must have thought it up all on your own.

"Beware of Black Tar at the bar"

You truly show the depth of your intellectual pool (or shall I say puddle) when you dazzle us with profound statements like that - טיפש.

ATAR_i said...

Um, still not impressed.

ATAR_i said...

My yiddish is better,

Ya putz

Anonymous said...

Every once in a while someone adds a post that is priceless. It doesn't make me burst out in uncontrollabel laughter, but I get this sort of deep belly chuckle/laugh that doesn't go away for hours. I'll still be chuckling tomorrow.

So, thanks 10:10 itar
where ever you are,
near or far,
in a car or in bar,
even covered with tar.

I'm chuckling till I have tears in my eyes.

Long Time Gone

ATAR_i said...

Glad I made you laugh

You will not find me in a bar
You will not find me covered with tar

You can find me in my car
you can find me near and far
you can find me here and there
you might find me anywhere

I don't like sam
sam I am

ATAR_i said...

"the Lord will stamp his impression upon me."

Probably with a nice thick soled boot.

ATAR_i said...

You're the one talking about God stompin on you - you're just a masochist (I can't be held responsible for your deviant thoughts).

ATAR_i said...

I don't think you have very many of the same thoughts as God, so you're pretty much in constant deviation.

ATAR_i said...

I'm not speaking of creation or of circles - I'm speaking of you - in constant deviation.

Deviation is something that acts to create an error. Deviation is NOT constant.

(variation yes, deviation - no)

The word for "corners" in the original Hebrew was Kanaph - which can be translated a variety of ways - but basically means an extremity.

in Numbers 14. 38 - it is borders
Ezekiel 7:2 it is four corners
Isaiah 11:12 it is four corners
Job 37:3 it is "ends"

The Bible makes it quite clear that the earth is a sphere Isaiah 40:22.

If they had really meant it to be corners it would be another Hebrew word which actually meant corner (Pino, Paioh, Zivovyoh, Kmouth, Paamouth).

But back to you again - spouting a bunch of junk that isn't even true - it's your deviant signature. If it rhymes it's true, if it's opposite what I say it's true, if warren said it it's true. Your grasp on the truth floats in the wind just as much as you - it has no basis in Biblical theology.

ATAR_i said...

How do you know angels have wings? - give me the scripture. HUMANS have made movies with angels who have wings - so you must watch too much TV.

IT has no basis in biblical theolgoy - it's plain and simple Streetology

THE BIBLE NEVER MENTIONED THAT ANGELS HAVE WINGS - ya schmuck

ATAR_i said...

Well that's not exactly quite true.

A schmuck is a jerk - and surely enough - people can be jerks.

Now your getting into some doctrine - predestination. Romans 9:13 "As it is written, jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated".

Before the twins were even born or had done anything good or bad - Rebekah (mom) was told - "The older will serve the younger." "Just as it is written Jacob I loved but Esau I hated".

Take also the scripture which procalims to Pharoah "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." God has mercy on whome he has mercy and he hardens his hear on whom he wants. Exodus 9:15-18

So, his creation is his creation - with free will - or is it all just designed? I find this topic very interesting - and read my first book on this subject as a teenager.

What say you all?

ATAR_i said...

No - it is what it is OTS. I'm not adding or subtracting from the Bible - just reading it - as it is.

You can WANT it to say something different - but the bottom line is...it says what is says.

And, if you've never studied the topic of predestination - it might be interesting for you.

And, I'm not calling you a schmuck because you speak the truth, I'm calling you a schmuck because you are an irritating little weasel.

ATAR_i said...

No weaseling - just refusing to restate scripture and editorialize it - it speaks for itself.

And that is the argument of predestination vs. free will.

The issue of predestination is complex and not essential to salvation. It's a Calvanist vs. Arminian argument that has spanned centuries.

It's not something that can be adequately dealt with on this blog - but it certainly is an interesting subject.

ATAR_i said...

Well you are an arogant schizophrenic to think you can understand God almighty.

To come unto God you must be as a child - to understand him completely is ludicrous.

Isaiah 55 8-9

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,neither are your ways my ways,"declares the LORD.

9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

ATAR_i said...

Can you give the reference - I believe your talking about when Jesus called the little children unto himself.

Salvation, and the message of the gospel is such that the little children can understand. We are not talking about THAT.

God knows all and sees all. The present, the past, all of his creation, his plans. You do not have the mind of God. While you possess the potential to be intelligent - your arrogance that the scant amount of knowledge you have is even remotely close to Gods mind is laughable and pompous.

ATAR_i said...

I'm not biting (Galileo has nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion).

ATAR_i said...

a. God created the world
b. You don't know how I was conceived
c. You don't know how I was delivered
d. I am a child of God, created for his pleasure.