Monday, July 25, 2005

The Persecuted become the Persecutors

Andrew Chatwin built his home on UEP land and left for his construction job and when he came back, his Father and Brother Sam Chatwin was moved into his unfinished house. In a 7 hour standoff with local law enforcement, Sunday Night, Andrew and his family were forcefully removed from a house that he had possession of. His belongings were hauled to the curb and dumped. He was written up for trespassing on UEP land. Orson Black who had abandoned the house and was living in another home across town, came and ordered the squatters off of "his" property and said that he was just remodeling. The town fathers came in and had the power and water on within a half hour and started remodeling. Carpet, sheetrock, doors and windows were taken out as we watched. The UEP is under a Temporary Restraining Order. Any improvement over $500 must have a written letter from the UEP Trustees. They only enforce this when someone is not FLDS. Over 100 people showed up (Dowayne Barlow and crew, Fred Barlow, Fred Jessop, LeGrande Barlow, Abe Barlow, Joseph Allred, Jim Jeffs, Bob Barlow, Joe Timpson.)

The FLDS cops were there to enforce the FLDS rules. The were not there to protect the citizens. They have been moving people in and out all over town with out permission. As if the Judge's orders don't even count.

83 comments:

Faithful Woman said...

The cops were there only to harrass Andrew. Just a year before they made a police road block to deniy him access to his own home while his brother Sam moved in. Now they create a 7 hour standoff while the FLDS big wigs root their slave labor out of bed to come do a "remodel job".

Harassment, pure police harassment.
If they would get involved in every house moving and stop them equally, that would be fine. But they pretend ignorance,"I wasn't aware of that" and very predudicedly enforce "tresspassing" laws. Andrew is every bit as much a UEP beneficiary as Orsen Black, or any of the guys out there doing remodel, he worked with most of them for years.

Orson had abandoned the house, moved into another by the FLDS, AFTER the restraint order on the UEP, he built fences, perminantly mounted his junk cars in the new yard, and has a garden growing. How is that for just moving to remodel?

Those guys are really going gung ho on the remodel. Most of them have been there all night, ripping out carpet, doors, walls, etc. This morning they were replacing windows, have the flooring guys and cabinet guys here to take measurements.

Is this what it will take to have our homes back?

Antique Mormon said...

Those folks are not one bit interested in the judicial process. Decency hasn't been a part of the flds vocabulary since Uncle Rulon informed us that we were going to honor the states law regarding underage marriage.Sam Barlow and Warren both stood up and said we were not going to honor it. We were told that no one was going to be evicted from their homes. These very people will scream prejudice until you can hardly hear yourself think, and then set up a police road block while someone else moves into the home a man built with his own hands and means. And they are doing this for their prophet? Not a chance. They are doing it because they have lost touch with the spirit of God, which is the spirit of decency.

GBNF said...

Antique,
They lost the spirit of decency a long time before Rulon. Jerry Jessop, his boys, Joe Timpson, Stanley Jessop, Sam Barlow, Nephi Barlow and a host of others were doing "the Lords work" and deciding who was worthy or not. There was no decency or fairness in the beatings and harassment they dealt out.

Fredonia Friend said...

So why didn't someone call the "real cops?" Please help me understand.

rumor-has-it said...

We did. The Mohave Sheriffs dept was called. They drove clear from Littlefield/Beaver Dam and told us it was a civil matter and that no one was to be arrested. But then had to leave because they were spread so thin; then the local cops took matters into their own hands. The Sheriff told us that the town marshalls could only keep the peace. Boy! Did they! They had no complaint, just acted on their own volition.
Next time it will be different.

rumor-has-it said...

This may be the final straw that breaks the camels back and get the thugs removed from being cops. We have been harrassed for years now. It is time to turn the tide. Fred Barlow, Jonathan Roundy, Mica Barlow and Sam Roundy Jr. and I wish that Stevey Barlow had a badge...he was the first one in hauling the furniture out. His time will come.

red rocks girl said...

We just got a little more "rumor" to add to the mill...Sam Barlow was in St George today and mentioned that he was "sick of being pushed around, and the next time they are going to come out with fists flying"

rumor-has-it said...

I hear that Uncle Orval is gone now. Take a look around town. All of the old guys are gone. Kim Johnson is prob the oldest guy on Main Street. Alvin Barlow, Sam Barlow and Jeffery Jessop are some of the oldest ones left. And their turn is coming.
We got every bit of this last episode on video camera, actually three video cameras and it is unreal. I didn't believe some of the stories that people would tell of when they tried to stand up or when they were leaving and all their possessions were pilaged. Now I totally understand. I only wish that we had stood up to the bastards sooner. I also heard that the Barlow Brothers were warned two days before they were kicked. They were told they were going to recieve a correction and if they didn't take it sweetly there would be dire consequences. They didn't even try to stand up--when they realized the TRUTH. It was too late.

red rocks girl said...

How much of a stand do we have to make before they (the big boys) get the hint that they are no longer in charge and cannot push US around. The Chatwins (who are beneficiaries just as much as current FLDS) were the ones who were being pushed aound. The cops were enforcing the trespassing and eviction on the Chatwins but never enforced it on all the other beneficiaries that were "house hopping"

Who was telling them to move?? Other beneficiaries, because there are NO trustees at the moment.. The only thing they had was more guys to do the pushing, intimidating and what not.

fttc said...

Maybe I need to ask you to pardon my ignorance. Was Sam talking about the law pushing him or was he referring to Warren? How much is Sam involved in the evictions now? His name was not mentioned in the original post?

fttc said...

Rumor

Did Uncle Orval lose his family?

red rocks girl said...

Sam was there today with his gloves on touring the "remodled" house. He wasn't there last night or if he was he was not seen by anyone.
As for the "pushing" thing...You know he was talking about those rotten Chatwins who dared defile a uep house by moving into it without his or warren's consent

fttc said...

OK I just hadn't heard of Sam in the headlines for a while. I had the impression that he was taking a back seat in all the recent happenings. I know his day for Warren to "handle" him is coming. I think he knows it also. Looks like he is still trying to play the game.

red rocks girl said...

what we really need is a number we can call when we see people "house hopping" alert????? maybe someone can come up with some numbers we can call, because the cops here won't do anything unless it's for warren.

fttc said...

I agree with the comments here about the town cops. Sam Roundy is not interested in the law only as it fits in with his own agenda.

He was quoted in the Specrum as saying he does not let religion influence his job in law enforcement. Several years ago I got counsel from Uncle Rulon and made some decisions respecting one of my sons. I thought I was within the law. Sam Roundy called me and told me I couldn't do what I had already done and I needed to undo it. I contacted a lawyer who confirmed my right to act as I had. When I told Sam he was wrong he did not go to the code book to check it out. He went to Uncle Rulon. I know from experience his statement was a lie.

Faithful Woman said...

Those dang guys have perfected the "i don't know" ruse.

The first officer on the scene was very profesional and polite but he asked for the phone number for Mr Wisen, the UEP fudiciary, when I called Sam Brower to get the information from him, Sam said that they had the number.
Sam had given them the paper and the cops photocopied it there in front of him, then the attorney's office sent him more papers, and the FBI themselves delivered that same information. When I confronted the officer about that he just lamely said that well, he didn't have it with him.
Come on people, those cops were on the phone every 5 minutes. Surely they have someone in the office who could have looked up the number for him!

HARRASSMENT!

Faithful Woman said...

Oh yeah, how come the rooky gets to be the new captain? Well Fred?

Fredonia Friend said...

I respect and admire you for going head to head with the "authorities" in CC/Hildale.

Are Sam Brower and Gary Engels living in the Short Creek area? If so, do people contact them when they see violations occuring, and if so, do they come to the scene to witness the activity? How would someone contact them to report violations or request investigation of violations?

You might want to hire a local attorney that could be contacted when you see violations of the UEP trust occuring. Maybe Carolyn DeGraff?

As a beneficiary of the trust, you have a definite interest in making sure the assets are protected. Carolyn's office is here in Fredonia, so I know she is licensed to practice law in Arizona. Not sure about Utah.

red rocks girl said...

the facts are Andrew origionally built a house on Willow St. in Hildale. His work took him all over the country. He left the house in care of his father. when it came time to enroll his daughter in school,they wouldn't let him back into the house. The CC/Hildale cops were there keeping him away while up to 100 of Warren's faithful were there moving his brother in. His uncle has graciously let him stay at his house while while he sorts this matter out and let his daughter go to a great school... The house next to his uncle's was Andrew's grandmother's house built by the uncle he is staying with. they watched and filmed Orson's family moving out on June 2 and move into another house. It had remained vacant until Andrew decided to move in on July 24th (the same weekend as the '53 raid). That's when Orson decided to not stay in his nice new home with the garden and fence and all the other improvements. Instead he is going to try and move back in without court papers or permission from the uep trust board, to a house that his wife does not want to move back into.
This is what happens when you lie for Warren, and distort the real facts. You don't get to stay in your new home so you can keep Andrew out and to maintain the lie that you never moved out you were only remodeling.

ogre said...

Faithful:

Is this the same Andrew Chatwin who grew up in SLC in the 70's-80's?
If so, then tell Andrew he still has a friend in SLC

rumor-has-it said...

The thing that is amazing is that they didn't do anything until midnight. It took them five hours to figure out a plan and then at midnight they had the power turned on and the garbage truck over with a dumpster. Goes to show when someone has total control over a town, amazing things happen.

If someones life depended on it, the non-flds couldn't get them to do it for them.

red rocks girl said...

yes it is the same one !!
and he said COOL glad to hear from a friend!

fttc said...

Was this Saturday night?

red rocks girl said...

no, it was sunday evening. They moved in at 5pm and the cops moved them out around midnight

fttc said...

You say Andrew moved in at 5 PM on Sunday? Did he have the approval of Mr. Wisen? I must be missing something.

red rocks girl said...

well no they didn't have permission from Mr Wisen, but neither did anyone else when the restraint was issued. They were showing the double standards that the cops have with the Warren faithful and the "apostates"

fttc said...

The double standards are too obvoius. But this explains the position of the county cops at least. I think I begin to understand. The CC police should not have even been involved. Of course the warrenites do not consider the ruling of the courts as valid. They live above all the laws of our country.

People like this always have boggled my mind. They are not answerable to any laws but as soon as the same laws can be turned to their advantage they want full benefit.

What a disgrace to the founding fathers of our country! What a disgrace the FLDS is to the simple laws of Christ! It is truly pathetic. A people who have been given so much and have lost it all and more.

Faithful Woman said...

It reminds me of a little kid, when some one else starts to win at his rules, he changes them.

Faithful Woman said...

The FLDS faithful who have been setting around dormant, wishing for a chance to prove themselves true to waren, have thrown themselves into a 24/7 effort of referbishing a house not worthy of their notice.

And why? So that some one non-FLDS can't have it.
They brought Orson in on Sunday midnight and had his say that he had only left it to remodel, so why are they moving some one else in on Wednesday?

Where is the truth is this?

ATAR_i said...

As an outsider, I guess I don't understand how it usually works.

Can you explain how the whole process of getting a house, land, remoding works, and perhaps how the process has changed over the years (if it has).

Faithful Woman said...

A long story, we will have to start a new thread for that one and have lots of input.

Antique Mormon said...

Atari. When it all began some years ago, we had some young men who had done very well for themselves. They had built large beautiful homes and they were the only ones living in them. Some of them came forward and said to the church, "I don't need this big house, I want to turn it in for you to use it for someone who needs it". That was wonderful news for a bishop that had a family in his care that was living in substandard conditions. You can't do anything to a house really that is being lived in like our people were living in their homes. Anyway, we would move a family into the home that was turned in, and then on a work day we would go remodel the other one. Since we now had another one ready, we would do it again, and again. Gradually, our housing standards were improved and many peoples lives and standards were greatly imporved. Still it was strange to many.

The outright lie in this case is that Orson and his family were planning on coming back to that house. It wasn't planned on happening, believe me.

Does Andrew have a claim on that house? No. Does he have a claim on a place to live? Yes, and he should be patient for a little while longer. His large home that he built with his time and money was denied him by the same rascals that hauled him away. The day is right around the corner when something will be done.

In the beginning young men that wanted a building lot would make it known and then they would be assigned a building lot in which to fence, improve, build, pay taxes, and add to the base of our UEP society. Gradually there was a fee established which helped offset servicing, surveying etc. Some would diligently go to work and build. Others would not. Our work day effort was designed to help jumpstart those who needed some help, but in so doing we ruined our local economy because people who had labor to sell now were expected to donate their labor, forms, materials etc. As the house juggle continued in my day, I don't know of anyone that was not bettered, with the exception that some of those people who turned their beautiful finished home in, were sometimes forgotten. I think they should be remembered.

red rocks girl said...

well said Antique Mormon!!! well said....
How long do we wait, what is the outcome? Who can give me a "heads up" on this big question.

rumor-has-it said...

Well, this little experience on Sunday will help it happen faster than anything I know.

fttc said...

Is there any news on action being taken on the above infraction of the injunction?

red rocks girl said...

not yet, it is coming though

red rocks girl said...

not yet, it is coming though

Anonymous said...

Nintendo - what do you mean?

red rocks girl said...

Thursday it will be decided on the board of trustees, will they be fair, who knows we have to wait and see.
that's what I meant by the above remark.

ogre said...

Faithful:
Please let Andrew know that he can stay with me anytime he needs to come to SLC or if he needs anything and I can help, I will

Anonymous said...

Andrew has a perfectly good home in Colorado. Yes, the State. He is giving up his good life to come here and raise H*LL because he's angry at Warren for beating him at Alta Academy when he was a child. He's a trouble maker just like Ross. Perhaps you have been to one of their meetings in which they plan which boat to rock next. GO HOME Andrew! You're tactics are as dispicable as Flora's.
And by the way, Lori and Rumor-has-it (Ross?). You're initial story about Andrew and his plight was way off. I dare you to tell it like it really is! Did you take lessons from Flora about telling stories to make them fit your agenda? Well keep it up. You're getting good at it.



Gone but haven't forgotten!

fttc said...

Gone

You tell us the real story. You've just discredited anything faithful can tell us.

Are you suggesting Ross should have just moved and gone away like so many others? I agree that Ross has made a lot of trouble, probably some that he didn't need to make. It has to start somewhere. He at least is willing to make a stand for what he knows is right.

I really would like to hear another side to Andrew's story. There were some items that did not look right. What can you give us?

Anonymous said...

Hey goner,
Please tell us the real story.
I was there and rumors account was very acurate.
Were you there?

ATAR_i said...

If there IS another side to the story - let it be told. If there isn't, and this is a bluff - please remain silent.

As far as Flora is concerned. She brings anger, because she brought a spotlight. I haven't seen everything Flora has done - but what I have seen, has been documented, and substantiated. Meaning, the girls she takes away, called HER for help, they said THEY needed it - and they told THEIR story. And, I don't forget that Flora had her own story, and in her own right has the ability to speak of things how she sees them.

Her subjective opinions about FLDS might be polar to your own - but does that make them a lie - NO

The objective data that she has brought is sufficient for me. The spotlight she brought made your men look as they truly were behaving (and it wasn't flattering). The objective data said - by definition of law, that your men were rapists and pedophiles.

Flora might have made those statements too - but YOUR OWN ACTIONS - the actions of your men, have been the objective data that gives her thoughts, ideas and talk it's weight.

So, I will NEVER take the side of a man who sleeps with an underage girl. I will never allow myself to believe the excuses - each adult makes their own decision - if you sleep with children, then you can rot in the spotlight.

If you are a father, and gave your child to another man - for him to have sexual relations with - please lay underneath the man already in the spotlight for sleeping with her - for your betrayal of your own blood is even more disgraceful.

Anonymous said...

Bearing in mind here that we only have circumstantial evidence:

That was very judgemental. You are disqualified to sit on this jury.

However well intentioned you seem,
You would tend to disinfranchise the constituional rights of an entire segment of society. Specifically those between the ages of 15 to 18.

Next applicant?

ATAR_i said...

I don't think a birth certificate is circumstancial evidence - that's objective proof, not subjective data.

Juror disqualification does not mean I'm not right (just to be clear).

Children have many rights not given to them - but no one has considered it unconstitutional.

Unless of course you want kids to be able to purchase alchohol, drive in elementary school, vote, buy cigarettes and tobacco products - and of course - have sex with old married men (we don't want to forget that).

You must be the defense attorney -

And,

Your argument is less than compelling.

So, your fired -

wanted - new defense attorney

Anonymous said...

Sorry. I'm the future Supreme Court Justice.. with a life appointment. lol

... and jsut think of it. If the girl had only not told her parents, not told who she chose to sleep with, and got an abortion you wouldn't have any evidence.
Not only that you would have supported her in it and even paid for it.

ATAR_i said...

Hmmm I used to picket abortion clinics for years every weekend.

Have you ever done that?

Better watch who you call supportive of abortion. I don't know many whose committment to the unborn has been on the same level as mine.

I would venture a guess that my committment to the unborn has vastly outshined yours - and of the two - your statements more closely rememble YOU than me.

Anonymous said...

I am proud of Ross and Lori for standing up and not leaving their home. I wish I had not left so fast. By leaving, we gave more control to WJ.

So what if we had the same circumstances in CC with no abuse allegations and no under age marriages by WJ? There is still a BIG problem. It is a untouchable problem by the states or government. What can be used to stop it? What would you do to make a difference?

fttc said...

What part do you say is untouchable? Warren and his goons have characters that have been developed over the years of their lives. If Warren had the character that would not abuse others and fly in the face of the law wouldn't the other probelms not exist as well? By their fruits you know men. Figs do not grow on thistle, nor thistle on figs.

Anonymous said...

OK I'm sorry. I meant no personal offense. And No. I haven't picketed any abortion clincs.

That may not be you. But it is the Law.

The unintended consequences though, are that since this is actually a religious issue, the thing that happens is there will a be a tendency to just not document the birth and create this "evidence." That only creates more injustice.

Back to my original point. Get a real complaint. When Law Enforcement starts creating their own complaints you have "1984" YOU will be the next criminal.

fttc said...

Where is the injustice in not documenting a birth?

ATAR_i said...

I believe that all births need to be documented. NOT documenting a birth might help a family trying to fly under the radar, but not the child.

The child - will have no proof of birth, citizenship, ability to vote, get a drivers license, passport, social security number, play a sport (my daughter has to provide hers every year for her select sport), how would you prove a child is lost - if there is no proof that child ever existed?

If you were a child whose parents chose not to document your birth, you were born at home, and your parents were never married - how would you prove you were born in the US - what early public records would there be?

That would be a travesty for a parent to choose to make that sort of decision for a child - devestating consequences.

ATAR_i said...

I don't understand what you mean by creating their own complaints. Can you give an example?

I mean - if someone is breaking the law, let's say they run a crack house - no one is complaining - but the cops find out. I can imagine that despite a lack of complaints - they would generate whatever they needed to close down the crack house (cuz it's against the law).

If a child is being abused, and the child is not complaining does that make it ok?

onthestreet said...

That's right. Now, by the same token, if a nation breaks the law, and creates laws that break the law, so that the populace doesn't even know who's the muzzle of the horse and who's the horse's ass, because of the infinate number of conflicts of law, does that make it okay? Is it different between a nation breaking laws, and an individual. Show us some wisdom.

fttc said...

Atar

I asked the injustice question tongue in cheek. I was hoping to go somewhere with anons answer. I guess I was baiting. :)

You gave an excellent answer.

Anonymous said...

ya, what she said. Exaclty what I meant but she even said it a lot better than I could have.

Now tell us about the rights of the girls that could be swept under the rug if you can force them out of relationships they want to be in.

I know, you are assuming they are too "blonde" to make that choice, but what if they are smarter than they look, and are where they want to be. Then what?

Wait broke the wagon. That's a different issue. (with it's own train of unintended consequences) We've heard you on that already.

fttc said...

What rights are you talking about? If you want to go back to the original intent of the constitution you have to acknowledge that when it was written girls had no rights until they were 19. Boys had no rights until they were 21. These are the ages they became adults under the law. Now of course it is at 18 for both. The law is specific about how a girl under the age of 18 can be married. Those are the rights she has in regards to marriage.

I guess my point is that waiting is not a seperate issue. And I might add, if any warrenites cared what the two last prophets this group had felt on the matter we would not be having this discussion.

ATAR_i said...

Well, the thing is children do not always act in their best interest. They like to do things that are not incredibly healthy.

So laws have been set up that kids don't have access to alchohol and tobacco to protect them. Now, they can get access if an adult buys it for them - and then - that adult is held responsible for providing a minor with an illegal substance (and only arguments by pathetic individuals claim that they taking away the childs civil rights).

I know a drug dealer who would agree with you. He is very upset that most drugs are illegal - and thinks that it's stupid, that if people want to do that - they should be able to. YOU AND HIM would be on the same side of this argument. It's a stupid law - and he should be able to give drugs to anyone who wants to buy them.

So, I'm seeing a law about children having sex with old men. I'm sure the old men don't like the law. The young girs are too young to consent. They might believe it's the right thing to do (great - they can wait until adulthood) or marry a YOUNG BOY with their parents consent.

It's just a wishful thinking on someone's part to think that a young virgin really wants to sleep with them. She's doing it because she's compelled to do it. She'd pick a younger boy - if she had the choice. But that young girl wasn't given a choice. Her option was sleep with this old man, or have your family disgraced. That's the opposite of handing her her civil rights.

Or, if you say she wants it, it's only because it's the only rope your throwing her and she's on the edge of a cliff and is losing her grasp.

"the worlds going to end, you'll be in hell forever if you don't marry an old man with at least three wives - hurry, hurry - the end is near". Scare tactics surely would motivate someone who believed that was the only way. Yeah - very grown up of you guys to do that to kids - very mature - NOT

Anonymous said...

Wait a minute!
I am a young girl who married an older man just when Warren was beginning to take over.I pushed the issue all the way. If circumstances were different I probably would have waited, but my choice of a husband would have remained the same. You say that no virgin would choose to sleep with an older man that has multiple wives, but you're speaking for yourself. I chose who I wanted to marry and relied on God to help it happen.Even before I knew for sure who I wanted to marry I knew I wanted to marry into a plural situation. I wanted the security of having close friends(sister wives)Who would help me out when I needed it. I wanted my children to grow up with lots of brothers and sisters, and I wanted to marry a man who had some experience with life and had conducted himself in an honerable manner. I wanted to marry a man who had the same values and love for his children that my father did, and I'm glad to say I was not disappointed.I'm not defending underage marriage, I'm just saying there are reasons why a young girl would want to marry a man who is a lot older and more mature than herself.I think that if you'll take a broader view you'll find there are many girls in the world who would rather marry someone older,who has already proven himself honest and just and kind, than find herself with someone close to her own age who is immature,and still trying to find his place in life.I know everyone has to be there sometime,but I thank Heavenly Father that I met up with my husband when he was older, and wasn't around when he was going through his adolescent and young adult struggles. I married a man who could understand my struggles in life because he had already been there. I married a man who would never hurt anyone, and who is the kind of Father that every Father should be.I can honestly say I married a gentleman in every sense of the word. Now do you feel that my choice is wrong?I think we should teach our children to weigh the consequences of their actions very carefully before they make a choice, but I beleive that choice is theirs to make and no one should take that right from them.

onthestreet said...

There is a true daughter of Eve, a saint, an example for all women who will.

Anonymous said...

atar-i;

That was just more rationalization for taking away thier rights. I want to hear your version of how you protect them.

So ya; we were a long time giving 18 and 21's their rights. That's the point, They don't have any until they are 18?

Ok fine. But then there is equal protection under the law that should apply everywhere.

Maybe there should be some critera besides age?

Anonymous said...

atar-i;

That was just more rationalization for taking away thier rights. I want to hear your version of how you protect them.

So ya; we were a long time giving 18 and 21's their rights. That's the point, They don't have any until they are 18?

Ok fine. But then there is equal protection under the law that should apply everywhere.

Maybe there should be some critera besides age?

rumor-has-it said...

Hey Goner 8/03/2005 1:44 PM

You say Andrew is angry at Warren for beating him at Alta Academy when he was a child.

Maybe there are alot MORE abuse issues we should be talking about. I would be mad if Warren had done that to me. As a matter of fact, I am still mad at Carson Barlow for beating me on the school bus. Those kind of things don't ever get forgotten.

Anonymous said...

It is interesting that those kinds of things are so remembered later on in life. It makes us think we should be especially careful with the kids we deal with. They, too, are going to have memories of today.

Wrighter

Anonymous said...

Yepper. I remember the strappings, but damned if I can remember what they were for, with butt few exception.

onthestreet said...

Is yur butt still red to help you remember? Not hardly. What happens to the body makes lasting impressions on the mind, right? Now, can you think of one good that did for you? We can all find good in everything, if we want to. But you're right, beating children is not God's will. Correct their mistakes, yes, but in a more loving way.

Anonymous said...

More loving riiiight. Adjust them. Send them off to repent from afar.

onthestreet said...

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
... The God of "love and peace" will be with those who manifest the same ...

ATAR_i said...

Dear Young girl - you are right - I cannot speak for all young virgins.

However, ALL young virgins - like you, deserve to decide for themselves WHO they will marry.

You say you chose this man - but do you agree that many young virigns in your community DO NOT get that choice?

You use your "choice" to choose this man, this man in particular because he was kind, because he was older, because he was a good husbnad - you say you CHOSE.

I would not take away your RIGHT TO CHOOSE - just the timing - you must be of age - THEN your choice will be made - and no one can dispute YOUR choice as an ADULT. Why the rush.

I would never take away the right of a woman to choose her mate when she is an adult - LIKE YOU DID.

Have you ever heard of NAMBLA. It's the national organization for man/boy love. They want to lower the age of consent - they feel that little boys (meaning - any age) can choose for themselves to have sex with older men. And that the courts/laws should not say that these men cannot have sex with these young boys because that's violating these young boys rights.

I don't find NAMBLAS arguments compelling - and I don't find FLDS arguments compelling about lowering the age of consent. I don't think kids should be having sex with adults - I don't think it should be legal or encouraged.

onthestreet said...

Not even adults should be having sex with adults. Why go half-ass? You're either pure, or you are filthy.

ATAR_i said...

No, adult married couples should definately be having sex with their spouse. I think you're in your own little theology zone again here street.

We had this discussion before - you're the only one who thinks that immaculate conception should occur in every marriage - this is your deal - not FLDS, not LDS, not Christianity, not the Bible - is more of your rot and nonsense.

But, based on the shallow gene pool you're sitting in, I'm going to say that is DEFINATELY the way for you to go!

onthestreet said...

You're right. It is NOT for the world at all. Only for an elect and chosen people.

ATAR_i said...

Yeah - I agree - that streetology will work very well for you. I'm sure if you ever do get married again, and she get's pregnant from NOT having sex with you - it's really immaculate, and not one of the other men in the neighborhood.

Whatever floats your boat - besides, mental illness can pass through the genes so your better off going the "immaculate route" just make sure the neighbors are intelligent before you move in.

red rocks girl said...

when my husband was "talking" to one of his cousins husband, the guy was telling my husband that he was committing adultry with me because we had not gotten married by Rulon Jeffs. this is the kind of mentality that is going on around here, there is NO logic behind the blah blah blah.

ogre said...

nintendo:
that guy sounds like a total fool and I would laugh at him if it weren't so shameful how people have become such man worshippers in colorado city. It seems that people the world over want to be told how to live their lives.
COME ON... stand on your own 2 feet people!!! Guys like Andrew who use their agency are too few!!!!

ogre said...

marriage is ordained of GOD whatsoever God puts together, no man can take apart
If you made a vow with your husband and GOD, no one can end the marriage but the parties involved

red rocks girl said...

that's why he laughed in the guys face..We knew that our marriage was of God, no matter where or who married us.

onthestreet said...

UNTIL DEATH DO YOU PART.

red rocks girl said...

only in your world street!!!! not mine

onthestreet said...

So right! So right! The world I live in, it is till death do they part. And so right! It is NOT your world, for "the meek shall inherit the earth."

red rocks girl said...

did everyone else on the blog get tired of you baiting them? don't ruin this thread oh demoted one with your rantings and comments that never seem to get to a point!!!!

onthestreet said...

Well, you got to the point yet ninny? It's been a whole week. Maybe you're too busy with your. . . nintendo.