Tuesday, July 26, 2005

Participate

If you would like to participate in this blog. Please register as a regular contributor, email texaspolygamy@sccn2.net. This is Democracy in action. Everyone needs to contribute to help make this a big picture.

80 comments:

ATAR_i said...

You can also go to the bottom of this page (under the large 'leave your comment box' at the bottom).

There is a place (under username and password)it says.

No Blogger account? Sign up Here.

click the sign up here part.

If you wish to remain anonymous. Go to Hotmail.com and establish an account using a nickname. They are free and it shouldn't take more than a few minutes.

Come back here, and use that email as your registration email.

fttc said...

It is probably a vain hope to think any of warren's faithful will come on here as a registered user. He has taught that you cannot discuss religion with an 'apostate' without apostatizing yourself. We know the real reason is that he cannot stand any scrutinizing. If the truth is placed before his people they would be able to see in an instant that warren is a hoax.

To any thinking person this would raise a red flag. They have chosen to put on their reality shades and look beyond the mark. There seems to be a belief that "warren will be responsible if we are doing wrong" attitude. People will be held responsible for their own actions. We cannot blame 'the prophet' for what we do or don't do.

It would be good for the dialogue to see anonymous comments returned. I understand why they were removed, but these people live such a double standard life and under such paranoia that you will not convince very many that warren cannot trace them if they register.

Faithful Woman said...

sorry atari, that button won't work. you have to request an invitation fron the administrator at the address given in the beginning of this thread.

ATAR_i said...

Yeah - it doesn't actually even seem to exist anymore.

mugwump said...

Have you tried to click on "Sign up Here" below the comment box and below the blogger identity box?

mugwump said...

I have been reading Ben Bistline's updated version of the "Polygamist of Colorado City". Near the end of the book he quotes Ross Chatwin's interview with members of the press. During that statement he (Chatwin) made a statement likening Warren Jeffs administration to Hitler's as recorded in "The Rise and Fall of Nazi Germany."

I read that book about 45 years ago and since the advent of YFZ have continously made mental notes to compaire the tactics used by Hitler to those being used by Jeffs. There is most positively evidence to similarities of methods and attitudes that both have used to sieze power and subsequent actions taken to ensure continuance in that power.

mugwump said...

I have been reading Ben Bistline's updated version of the "Polygamist of Colorado City". Near the end of the book he quotes Ross Chatwin's interview with members of the press. During that statement he (Chatwin) made a statement likening Warren Jeffs administration to Hitler's as recorded in "The Rise and Fall of Nazi Germany."

I read that book about 45 years ago and since the advent of YFZ have continously made mental notes to compaire the tactics used by Hitler to those being used by Jeffs. There is most positively evidence to similarities of methods and attitudes that both have used to sieze power and subsequent actions taken to ensure continuance in that power.

fttc said...

It is not only Hitler he is similar to. Read "Animal Farm" for those in the know there is a person in the FLDS for every character in that short book.

On closer examination you will find similarities to nearly every dictator that seized power through-out known history. It is only the self-inflicted ignorance of the people of the FLDS that keep them from seeing it.

mugwump said...

I've not read "Animal Farm" but, I did see several things in "Rise & Fall" that caused me to remember that similar tactics used by the Nazi's have been since used by the heiarchy of FLDS. You are absolutely right on target when you say that tactics used by FLDS leaders are similar to or the same as those used by dictators throughout recorded history.

fttc said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
fttc said...

I did not read "Animal Farm" by George Orwell until after I had left the FLDS. I could not get over how it fit. It is frightening how every part has a character in today's show with the FLDS. It was written in allegorical satire of the communist socialist takeover of Russia. I would recommend it for anyone who is or was FLDS.

It can be read online at http://www.online-literature.com/orwell/animalfarm

mugwump said...

Thanks for the reference. I'll make an effort to find and read the book.

On the surface of our "Liberty Bell" there is (in part) a plea for the people to "Proclaim Liberty throughout the Land." This is my feeble attempt to do so.

Communism and Socialism have been proven to be failures. I lived through the entire "Cold War" and having lived in somewhat isolated West Texas, I especially remember the "control" placed upon individual athletes from Communistic states who participated in the Olympic games through the years.
They displayed marvelous talent and dedication, but no concept of freedom. When interviewed on TV, following their winning medals in their particular events, they demonstrated absolutely no personality. These talented people spoke without expression, with no joy of individual achievement. I sense the exact same hopelesness whenever a "regular" person from the FLDS compound comes near any of their "Gentile" neighbors. They live in fear, and awe of US and that is not right.

They want love, and it is denied. Love has been cheapened to the estate of sexual activity, pure and simple. In my opinion that attitude is "sick."

Following the fall of the Berlin wall and the crumbling of totalitarian leadership, many of those same gifted athletes, who had won acclaim throughout the free world, because of their accomplishments, fled their former homes and came to the United States.

I know we in the US are an imperfect people with giant problems. I will not deny that.

When I see the photographs of the orchards and gardens at YFZ, gardens scratched out of a rocky hillside by women and children who are virtual slaves to Jeff's system, my heart breaks. Why? Because unless a change comes about they will never experience real freedom. These people appear to have the qualities to enable them to succeed greatly in a non-commune environment. They do not fear work, they are not lazy. However, their lack of education will hamper their growth. They need to be exposed to a normal ciriculum of study. They need to learn history, literature, basic science and math, the ability to compose a comprehensible sentence. They need to learn to manage their own affairs, have a checking account, put their earnings to work in their own behalf.
I believe that these people have been so endoctrinated and brain-washed that even if they become free of Jeff's prosecution, most will remain faithful contributors to a work to which they so faithfully follow. But then, they have no choice now.

These people yearn for assurance. They have been duped into so many United Efforts, Plans, fund raisers, emergency collections assesments etc. that you have to wonder how the leaders reconcile their ineptness in managing money. These same leaders live in an almost royal lifestyle Their followers, the ones to whom they owe their very existance have been denied fruits of their own labor. Even the ability to live in a house, built with their own money, by their own hands motivated by a genuine love for their family, in the natural state of being, but is now held at the will of an abomination. "One man rule" has removed any recourse ensuring personal liberty.

Jeff's enjoys liberty. He assumes that his actions are a command of God, whom he worshiped as being himself. Therefore, in his mind, his actions are above the law. His lack of any representation at the civil trial related to his sodomizing his own nephew shouts of narcissism, personal greed and wickedness beyond comprehension. His failure to appear at the hearings related to the UEP mismanagement of funds demonstrate his contempt for any power except his own.

The idictment of so many of the FLDS community leaders, the managers of the United Effort, their school officials and church leaders has to be a shock. Finally, even their subjection to the presumption of their prophet's own impending arrest and trial for his part in fraudulent affairs. He is enabling his followers, his flock, and demanding that, children, women, little girls and boys are to obey HIS will, immediately, without question, or face the worst fate possible, separation from their own family. Or perhaps, his own obsession concerning concerning blood atonement. The man is a monster!

I hope this little cry for liberty is heard at YFZ.

No doubt OTS will be babbling about this post for days. If you agree with my observations please pray for the deliverance of these people.

Anonymous said...

Mugwump.....

You're turning into a long-winded, self-righteous pain-in-the-ax.

Why don't you and OTS find a room somewhere?

Stinger said...

I thought that was one of mug's better post. A far cry from OTS' drivel. Maybe a bit long winded, but how to you put what warren has done to his sheeple is only a few sentences? Can heartache and misery be described with only a few words? I think not. Can the story of the breaking up of families and the enslavement of a people be told in a couple lines? Hardly. Can one simple line tell about the pain that someone feels when their mother and grandma brings over all the pictures they have of their non warrenite children, saying that they have no time to look at the pictures anymore and they can't take them to heaven with them so they don't need them? I doubt it. Mugwump may have said some things I didn't agree with in the past but that post was well thought out.

ATAR_i said...

I wish the "anonymous" who pound on their chests and berate others - but are unwilling to even peek out from underneath their rock with a pseudonym would stop belittling others.

If you're not willing to take accountability for your own posts by leaving a signature of some sort - you probably aren't worth listening to.

Muggy has had some great words, you might disagree - but I'd like to see you express your opinions as eloquently, and put a pseudonym on it (if not a name).

I agree with mugs on several points - but when I think of Maslows Heirarchy of Needs - I remember that it is shaped like a pyramid (for illustrative reasons only - not religious)

The first need must be met - before you can go on to the rest.

The first need is physiological -air, sleep, food, water, shelter - basically sustenance. All of the FLDS should have that.

The second is safety - and I think that need is NOT being met - and in many cases - you cannot proceed on unless this need is met. Meaning - the security of home and family and even profession is in jeopardy - people don't feel safe.

The third is love - if you have your physiological needs met, you feel save - you can begin to fulfill your love and belongingness. FLDS, the group you have associated with for so long, now doesn't want you - where is your safe secure place? insecurity creeps in. People need to be loved and to belong - then they can move on to...

Your esteem needs - self esteem (from competence or mastery of a task, and second attention and recognition from others).

And lastly Self - actualization or basically becoming everything that your are capable of becoming - maximizing potential - seeking out learning experiences.

So - I suppose encouraging a teenage girl to go on and get a great education - and making that my goal - would be to overlook the fact that she doesn't feel safe, doesn't feel loved, and has poor self esteem. Those areas need to be the building blocks.

We start with SAFETY - making people feel safe. I think in order to change, people will have to begin to feel safe again.

mugwump said...

Thanks stinger and atar_i

You and several others who don't agree with my particular thought pattern at least recognize that the words on the page were not simply slung-out-to-dry but were carefully considered.

My writing skills are not as gifted as some of yours. My spell-checker doesn't catch all my mistakes, but my ideas and beliefs are mine, developed over a long time and as a result of many discussions with people who have gained my respect by their ability to reason things out.

Some things can be settled with reason. Others are simply a matter of faith.

Anonymous said...

The problem I see mugwump, is that your sterotype of the flds "cricker" is horribly skewed by the sensational media stories, authors like crackhour or what ever his name is, flora's brand of ravings, and pissed off ex-pligs, activists, reporters, bloggers, and lookie-lu's etc, etc.

It's terrible how people are so willing to suck up on all the smut. The prejudice is really something.

With the law, it's innocent until proven guilty, but with the media and public opinion it's guilty until proven innocent.

If someone tells you that most of these people are "normal" you dont even want to belive it.

It's kind of like having your intimate "autobiograpy" writen by your angry ex-wife. There would be enough truth to make life miserable and enough error to make you roll your eyes on every page.

So what do you? Write another book to try to confirm what you agree with and untell each lie and mis-reperesentation one by one. It only gets worse.

Everyone has a little dirty laundry, and none of it looks good run up the flagpole.

Why don't ya'll just assume that unless you actually know otherwise; that people are, smart, educated, free, happy, religious, moral, well adjusted, law abiding, and minding thier own business. You'd be right more often than not.

Granted warren has made a mess that needs an "adjustment" but this public image of deluded lost ignorant souls is not accurate.

Nothing but a birth certificate for a complaint is what is really disgusting.

fttc said...

Anon 12:10

I can go with you on the lack information coming from within the FLDS. But I don't think anyone can comprehend how someone who has all the platitudes you list can behave as the FLDS has. Christ said by their fruits you shall know them.

I don't doubt there are those who follow warren out of fear. But this does not show a well adjusted personality. Where would we be today if every man who had some fear in their heart cowered down and did nothing to promote what they beleived to be right. Our countries history is full of men who put their fears aside and took care of business to maintain our freedoms.

Anonymous said...

I think it was General Patton who said, "You don't win wars by dying for your country, You win wars by making the other bastard die for his."

Anonymous said...

Straight Shot Says,
To persecuted, dirty laundry run up on the flagpole anonymouse -- Just think about this for a minute.

These birth certificates you're talking about - would they be registrations of babies born to underage girls who were assigned to men who already had wives? Would these girls have been under the age of 18 when they were impregnated by said men??

Are all of the men in CC Elders in the FLDS or CP/CC (I know they aren't all the same place and don't all believe exactly the same thing - except that in all these groups males are ordained to the "priesthood" when they are twelve and NOONE RECEIVES A WIFE - EVEN ONE WIFE UNLESS THEY HAVE BEEN ORDAINED TO THE MELCHEZIDEK PRIESTHOOD INTO THE OFFICE OF AN ELDER IN THE CHURCH.)

I don't have any idea what other kinds of position in the FLDS structure of things these men had but I do know that everyone of these men would be Elders in their church and as such are in a position of "trust and authority" over all members of the community. As such they are bound to safegaurd the children of their Church and Community -- not impregnate them - even if they try to use the excuse that their prophet made them do it.

There is not another town, county, State, or province in North America where so many Elders, Priests, Teachers (and I mean School Teachers) Principal's, and City Officials and Police Officers have EVER BEEN ABLE TO GO FREE FOR DECADES AFTER COMMITTING THESE ACTS.

The Governments have stated that they aren't going after polygamy itself - so quite whinging and whining. Just because, as in the publicized case of Dan Barlow Junior he got off with a ridiculous sentence of no more than 3 months of actual jail time for molesting 5 of his daughters doesn't mean that the crimes against children there will go unpunished forever.

Men who are Elders go to jail for impregnating females under the age of 18 in the real world. If this Elder was younger and there was the proper parental consent then there would be no problem. But when said Elders are older and already have wives and children - it is a crime.

Welcome to America - the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave. And quit thinking that freedom of religion exempts you anymore than Catholic Priests are exempted for their abuses of children in their trust. And don't try to say -- "Oh but they are loved and their children are loved and wanted and sacred and chosen and elect - not like all the homeless children in the wicked world!"

That's old and tired and not the point at all. All responsible careing adults in North America are trying to remedy this problem as well. Its not possible to sit back and pretend it doesn't matter when you are truly part of a county, state, and country where there is the love Christ expected people to have for each other.

ATAR_i said...

I would probably agree that many in FLDS are more normal than not. Normal doesn't make the news as much - we see the more outrageous acts of the FLDS. Why? Because that's exactly what they are - unbelievable.

What I find the most compelling in YOUR situation - is that your LEADER is one of the individuals doing the most outrageous, unbelievable acts, and encouraging others to do so.

I think in mainstream America, in most religions - you would find that when a leader behaves innappropriately or encourages others to do so - he is held to a higher set of standards, more accountability - and more light is brought to the matter. One of his followers could do much the same thing, and probably hide it for longer because of his anonymity.

However, the leader, is just that - sometimes a moral compass, but usually the one who is encouraging those who follow him to act in a moral, ethical, righteous manner - not causing themselves or anyone else to stumble.

Your situation is different - in that your leader is asking you to stumble, asking you to throw away your moral compass, asking you to do things that are unimaginable - and even more astounding - people are DOING THEM.

I'm sure some of the stories are sensationalized - but, the meat of the situation even without any of the frills - is still morally bankrupt.

The meat

girls who are young (too young) are given to men who are old, and already have wives.

the frills

how the girl tried to escape, how she felt pressured, how the new wife treated her, how she couldn't run away.

The objective data - without any of her subjective feelings (though they might be true or sensationalized) is what is burying your group.

On objective data alone - many of your group are committing crimes against the weakest members of your own society. I'd say the moral compass needs to be resurected - quickly.

fttc said...

Atar

That was very well said. I couldn't agree more.

mugwump said...

You know, my opinion has been skewed, to a large extent, by those posters who support Warren and his position. Their attempt to argue their point is outside the sphere of understanding the "real world." OTS, Ruth et.al rave in long tirades, quoting scripture excerps from documents that the world does not accept as being divinly inspired.

Someone said I was "long winded."

If that is your take I appologize. What you fail to understand is that this problem has many, many sides. There are more than one question needing an answer.

Answer the questions by telling the truth and quit trying to throw up a smoke screen. It is your cloud of secrecy that is our greatest concern. What are you trying to hide?

fttc said...

Mugwump

I have to take exception to your comments on the LDS scriptures not being valid in argument because they are not accepted as divine by some. I have to add a side note about OTS and Ruth; they have made quotes supposedly from our scriptures that have been skewed beyond recognition. With that said these are our scriptures whether you accept them or not. If you want to truly understand you will have to bear with what you consider a hoax. It is not much different than me listening to your interpretation of the Bible. You cannot understand the customs of the orthodox Jew without some understanding of the Torah; the muslims and the Koran; the Hindu and their beief system.

Joseph Smith and his teachings are what we found our beliefs on. If you want to understand what makes us tick you have to be willing to view our scriptures from our viewpoint.

fttc said...

4:27

So is the "other bastard" your children? I guess I don't get your point. None of the men who I refer to as cowering are doing anything to dethrone warren.

Anonymous said...

I don't mean to advocate violence. Just making the point that if you don't survive, whats the difference?

The other bastard is the one shooting back trying to take you out. Is that you?

fttc said...

I have thought it was warren. That's why it didn't make sense. If you feel I am shooting at you it is because I have struck a chord of truth.

fttc said...

And by the way there are thousands of American soldiers that didn't survive that made a lot of difference. Is it better to live under opression and tyranny than to die fighting it? If you answer yes you are a coward. If someone knows warren is doing wrong and they do not stand up to it I consider them a coward. They are not worthy of the freedom they have lost.

ATAR_i said...

Just making the point that if you don't survive, whats the difference?

Are you listening to what you are saying?

As a mother, as a human - I know - I WILL NOT SURVIVE on this earth past the 100 year mark - probably. NONE of us survive.

It's not the dying in life though - which dictates how I live. It's the living of life. What legacy do I leave behind for my children? You will leave one to.

I question some of the decisions of my ancestors - decisions which caused generations of pain for their decendents. I wonder if they knew how much devestation would be attributed to their actions - would they behave otherwise?

My mother changed our destiny by her decisions. In the stories I tell my children - my mother is a heroine. Some ancestors are more sad and pathetic figures, unable or unwilling to be like my mother.

So, you can choose to "survive", and believe that your actions are in your best interest, and perhaps for your life span - that might be true. But, I doubt that. Standing up and making a difference has never been easy - would you put that off on your children and grandchildren because you are to weak? Or will you stand up - make a difference, face some adversity - and leave the legacy of one who made a difference.

mugwump said...

Good reasonable post, atar_i.

Anonymous said...

I wasn't saying there wouldn't be any difference. But you have to think about what difference you can really make.

Ya'll seem to have it all figured out, but sometimes the people who believe the lies are in worse shape than those who told them in the first place. At least until the final judgement day.

A mob of vigilanties is usually composed of ignorant ill informed members of the public who have been incensed by propoganda. They rush headlong into taking the Law into thier own hands, so that "justice" can be done. And NOW.

Atar-i is usually very objective. Mugwump isn't. Thats my take.

ATAR_i said...

Anon, you might not make the kind of difference that will hit the papers - or land you in Time magazine.

But each stand, builds upon the next stand. You might not make the *big* difference - BUT, the difference you make, might be the catalyst for another person to stand tall - and so forth, until a chain of events leads someone in the right place at the right time - to change EVERYTHING.

So, don't be disheartened - and don't ever believe the lie that what you have to give isn't enough - and thus isn't important.

Directly, you might only influence one or two, indirectly you might save ten thousand.

Do what YOU can, what is in your power. Make the changes to be everything you need to be, and an example to those who need good examples. Live and stand tall, making decisions that are right, true, moral and something you would want to sign your name to.

Help others make those changes to, be there as a support to them, to hold them up when they are weak - YOU CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE.

rumor-has-it said...

If you have read Stephen R Covey's Book "The Eight Habit" it helps with the understanding that every voice counts.
This blog is a great way to express personal opinions and to learn how to deal with the facts and opinions of others. The more people that add their opinion, the bigger the picture is for all of us.

onthestreet said...

Vox Dei, Vox Populi.

ATAR_i said...

OTS <------ hunc tu caveto, advocatus diaboli

absit invidia

onthestreet said...

TAR: You say: "Beware of this man, the devil's advocate. I say: Beware of Black Tar at the bar. I only advocate God, who will take you far. No offense intended here, either.

onthestreet said...

Ist Gott ewig? Dieu Existe-T-IL? Kerdesek A Kezdethez. La Datazione Radiometrica Confuta la Bibbia? ÿ³È'ß|òIóÛaÈôÿmkeò›¢, Stein og Bein, Так кто же проталкивает «плохую науку»? Creación: ¿Dónde está la prueba?

ATAR_i said...

Wow - that's profound - you must have thought it up all on your own.

"Beware of Black Tar at the bar"

You truly show the depth of your intellectual pool (or shall I say puddle) when you dazzle us with profound statements like that - טיפש.

onthestreet said...

TRY THIS ON FOR SIZE:

barmy, bovine, brainless, cock-eyed, cuckoo, daft, dim, dozy, dull, dumb, empty-headed, fool, goofy, imbecile, jerky, loony, lump, lunatic, mindless, muddleheaded, obtuse, sappy, simple-minded, slow-witted, spastic, thick-skulled, unintelligent, witless
airhead, alec (עגה, אוסטרליה), ass, ass, berk, birdbrain, blockhead, bonehead, boob, booby, bozo, bullhead, chump, clod, clot, clown, cluck (מדוברת), coot, cuckoo, daw, dead-head, dim, dimwit, dip (מדוברת, ארה"ב), divvy, dodo, dolt, dope, dork, dotard, duffer, dum-dum, dumbbell, dumbo, dummy, dunce, featherbrain, fool, gimp, goof, goon, goose, jackass, jerk (מדוברת), klutz (צפון-אמריקה), loggerhead, loony, lump, lunatic, mug, mule, mutt, nana, nincompoop, ninny, nit, nitwit, noodle, numbskull, nutcase, oaf, pigeon, pillock, pinhead, plonker, prat, prune, pudding (מדוברת), puppy, sap, sap, schlep, silly, simple, sod, softy, spastic, stiff, thickhead, twit, wally

mugwump said...

is part of that in reformed, perfumed; performed, excavated, hallucinated, premeditated, incarcerated, incantated, plagiarized or whatever Egyptian?

ATAR_i said...

Um, still not impressed.

mugwump said...

nor am I.

Stinger said...

OTS describing itself?

onthestreet said...

Don't you all know Hebrew?

ATAR_i said...

My yiddish is better,

Ya putz

Anonymous said...

Every once in a while someone adds a post that is priceless. It doesn't make me burst out in uncontrollabel laughter, but I get this sort of deep belly chuckle/laugh that doesn't go away for hours. I'll still be chuckling tomorrow.

So, thanks 10:10 itar
where ever you are,
near or far,
in a car or in bar,
even covered with tar.

I'm chuckling till I have tears in my eyes.

Long Time Gone

ATAR_i said...

Glad I made you laugh

You will not find me in a bar
You will not find me covered with tar

You can find me in my car
you can find me near and far
you can find me here and there
you might find me anywhere

I don't like sam
sam I am

mugwump said...

I am not from Boston.
My daddy's name wasn't Sam.
I grew up with meger possessions
But A Child of the King, I am.

I don't have advanced education,
My house is still a sweet home,
My children still call me daddy
And call me weekly by phone.

I know The Lord Jesus is Savior,
No mere man could give His all
To ensure my eternal salvation,
Though I stumble, I never do fall.

Can you, dear friend claim that love?
Is Jesus The Savior to you?
Why not kneel right there where you are sitting,
And let Jesus' sweet love come to you.

onthestreet said...

Such poets.

mugwump said...

So what do you have to offer street. Confusion? Go impress your other self.

onthestreet said...

What I offer is not an offering to you, but to the Lord, and yes confusion to yourself. Well put. And the Lord will stamp his impression upon me.

ATAR_i said...

"the Lord will stamp his impression upon me."

Probably with a nice thick soled boot.

onthestreet said...

ALL YOUR REPLIES BESPEAK YOUR VIOLENT ABUSE, YOUR GUILT, YOUR CRIMES. NOW THERE'S THE BOOT THAT FITS.

ATAR_i said...

You're the one talking about God stompin on you - you're just a masochist (I can't be held responsible for your deviant thoughts).

onthestreet said...

Okay then, stop deviating.

onthestreet said...

I just quote. No better thoughts that the thoughts of God Himself. When you deviate from that, there's where you get in trouble.

God is the one who stomps, and He says so Himself. I only read it to you, like bedtime stories just before I give you cookies and milk and tuck you in bed.

ATAR_i said...

I don't think you have very many of the same thoughts as God, so you're pretty much in constant deviation.

onthestreet said...

Ahh, much like the earth that fulfills the measure of its creation, and its constant magnetic deviation of 0-30-degrees, depending on who you are, your culture or region of the earth. See, it is adjusted to each man's level, and at a constant deviation at any given place.

Do you know why 0-30? Have you heard of the four-corners of the earth. How does a circle have corners?

ATAR_i said...

I'm not speaking of creation or of circles - I'm speaking of you - in constant deviation.

Deviation is something that acts to create an error. Deviation is NOT constant.

(variation yes, deviation - no)

The word for "corners" in the original Hebrew was Kanaph - which can be translated a variety of ways - but basically means an extremity.

in Numbers 14. 38 - it is borders
Ezekiel 7:2 it is four corners
Isaiah 11:12 it is four corners
Job 37:3 it is "ends"

The Bible makes it quite clear that the earth is a sphere Isaiah 40:22.

If they had really meant it to be corners it would be another Hebrew word which actually meant corner (Pino, Paioh, Zivovyoh, Kmouth, Paamouth).

But back to you again - spouting a bunch of junk that isn't even true - it's your deviant signature. If it rhymes it's true, if it's opposite what I say it's true, if warren said it it's true. Your grasp on the truth floats in the wind just as much as you - it has no basis in Biblical theology.

onthestreet said...

Yes, angels float, but I aint got my wings yet, and I think angels and wind have a basis in Biblical theology.

I see you're learning a little Hebrew. That's a good girl.

ATAR_i said...

How do you know angels have wings? - give me the scripture. HUMANS have made movies with angels who have wings - so you must watch too much TV.

IT has no basis in biblical theolgoy - it's plain and simple Streetology

THE BIBLE NEVER MENTIONED THAT ANGELS HAVE WINGS - ya schmuck

mugwump said...

atar_i:

I believe the Cherubim and Seraphim are described as winged creatures. I find no reference to these two being winged "angels." I believe their purpose is to praise, serve and worship God.

Angels have a different purpose.

onthestreet said...

Ahh, very good. You both are coming right along. Atar is right. Angels don't have wings. But see, she jumped the gun in assuming I said so by saying, "I don't have wings."

Mugs is right too. Angels have wings, just not physical wings like the birds, for angels are divine nature, not of the nature of animals. Yet, they rise up on angels' "wings", or the powers of flight.

You all come up with some absolute truths, and the FLDS accept truth wherever it is found. Very impressive.

onthestreet said...

By the way, atar: Nobody's a "schmuck," as you seem to charge everyone that you hate and wish evil upon. Remember, "God don't make no junk," not even you girl.

ATAR_i said...

Well that's not exactly quite true.

A schmuck is a jerk - and surely enough - people can be jerks.

Now your getting into some doctrine - predestination. Romans 9:13 "As it is written, jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated".

Before the twins were even born or had done anything good or bad - Rebekah (mom) was told - "The older will serve the younger." "Just as it is written Jacob I loved but Esau I hated".

Take also the scripture which procalims to Pharoah "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." God has mercy on whome he has mercy and he hardens his hear on whom he wants. Exodus 9:15-18

So, his creation is his creation - with free will - or is it all just designed? I find this topic very interesting - and read my first book on this subject as a teenager.

What say you all?

onthestreet said...

YOU ERR AGAIN: God does not HATE children, for ALL children are innocent before him. You advocate the hatred or abuse of children, by suggesting that God did the same even before they were born. Paul told the Romans that God hated Esau after he had partaken of your gentile nature, vs the pure nature of Israel.

You sound a little Biblical, but still very false, and that makes a false prophetess.

God raises up men, and allows Satan to take them through the evils of the world, to perpetrate their evils, but as children they were innocent before the Lord.

The TRUTH stands: God don't make no junk. Men and devils do that work. Furthermore, nobody's a schmuck or jerk for seeking the truth, or to find their way in life. Much less, they who seek to help others do the same.

I see that you too are still grasping for it, even to the point of seeking it out of any kind of a book, and asked others to support you in the idea that God hates children, or is the author of evil.

I wonder how many succers fall for that.

ATAR_i said...

No - it is what it is OTS. I'm not adding or subtracting from the Bible - just reading it - as it is.

You can WANT it to say something different - but the bottom line is...it says what is says.

And, if you've never studied the topic of predestination - it might be interesting for you.

And, I'm not calling you a schmuck because you speak the truth, I'm calling you a schmuck because you are an irritating little weasel.

onthestreet said...

Why you sure weaseled your way out of that one. That is so irritating. No, actually, I enjoy seeing a weasel set free once in awhile. Just be a good girl and don't eat the eggs. The children are not predistined as evil, but only created to be evil by a society that SLAYS little children, to the tune of 40-MILLION!!! Is that acceptable?

ATAR_i said...

No weaseling - just refusing to restate scripture and editorialize it - it speaks for itself.

And that is the argument of predestination vs. free will.

The issue of predestination is complex and not essential to salvation. It's a Calvanist vs. Arminian argument that has spanned centuries.

It's not something that can be adequately dealt with on this blog - but it certainly is an interesting subject.

mugwump said...

I believe your take to be absolutely on target.

onthestreet said...

"Issues conplex"?
"So simple that a child can understand it," saith the Lord, but only a child of God. For the children of the devil, things are very complex. Well put, indeed.

ATAR_i said...

Well you are an arogant schizophrenic to think you can understand God almighty.

To come unto God you must be as a child - to understand him completely is ludicrous.

Isaiah 55 8-9

8 "For my thoughts are not your thoughts,neither are your ways my ways,"declares the LORD.

9 "As the heavens are higher than the earth,so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

onthestreet said...

"So simple that a child CAN UNDERSTAND IT"

God said it, not me.

ATAR_i said...

Can you give the reference - I believe your talking about when Jesus called the little children unto himself.

Salvation, and the message of the gospel is such that the little children can understand. We are not talking about THAT.

God knows all and sees all. The present, the past, all of his creation, his plans. You do not have the mind of God. While you possess the potential to be intelligent - your arrogance that the scant amount of knowledge you have is even remotely close to Gods mind is laughable and pompous.

onthestreet said...

No, God's ways are not man's ways, nor is man equal to God. Warren is God with us, not equal, but a portion of his light with US (FLDS), and with you too, for the whole world has now seen the light, and understood it NOT. Still, he is with us, is he not (on the earth, keeping it in its orbit: The presence and power of God here and now).

Now, do you still want to TELL Galelio the world is flat!

mugwump said...

Since when have you been authorized to speak for the Lord?

Who authorized you and above all else, "WHY"?

You alienate more people than you attract into believing anything you have to say.

Speak for yourself, it would be a lot more believable. But then, I guess you'd have to decide which self you were speaking for!!!!

ATAR_i said...

I'm not biting (Galileo has nothing whatsoever to do with this discussion).

onthestreet said...

Hey, Galileo gave you a round world to live upon, NO??? At least, in the minds of the people, which minds are so feeble and so impressionable, that you would believe anything.

Well, actually, that is exactly what you have all done. First, your conception was rather violent, nigh unto rape, then your gestation just as violent with many rapes, then your birth with that big squeeze from mom and that big WHAK on the arse, and then that upbringing, believing every diverse folly and "preaching for commandments the doctrines of men", as the Lord puts it.

Result: wala, mud pie.

mugwump said...

voila not wala----- wala is the first half of the name of a town in Washington State, Walla-walla

ATAR_i said...

a. God created the world
b. You don't know how I was conceived
c. You don't know how I was delivered
d. I am a child of God, created for his pleasure.