Tuesday, July 05, 2005

Our Father's Love

Why do parents tell their children "you are not welcome here."?

Our father in heavens love is boundless. He sends the rain and the sun to shine on everyone. And he says who can measure the worth of a soul.

Yet many religions shun their own children who do not believe the same as them. Not just FLDS. I know many who have been cut off from their former loved ones for many years and history is repeating it self.

What can you do to make sure that you never do this to your children?

My father and mother and former friends have no connection to me. And I find many people who won't talk to their parents because of religious differences or some emotional thing in the past.

I believe that Christ died for us. Forgiveness and repentance is part of the great plan of salvation.

I think that what Louis Barlow did with his family and children is damnation. For a father to walk away from his family and loved ones must mean that he had no natural love or adoration for his wives and children in the first place. A relationship is built on communication and trust. Would you shun your children?

135 comments:

Anonymous said...

my children are god's gift to me
caring for them is my obligation

i'd sell my soul to the devil to guarantee their salvation
if i wouldn't, i wouldn't be a worthy parent

they don't have to respect me
respect is earned, not assumed

... and i'm agnostic

keep sweet eldorado
stg

PS: my kids love me, or so they tell me all the time

Anonymous said...

Oh Rumour! All of us that have been shunned by our loved ones have felt that certain betrayal. After all, we are nothing more than we have ever been. Many people just don't dare do anything else. I had a man sneak in to see me once after dark and after making sure that no one was looking. He was a grown man with two wives and some beautiful children. He knew that if he did not go along with the holy prophet thing then they would have left him and that his father, mother, brothers and sisters would have had nothing more to do with him. He sat there in the dark of my office and wept like a little boy. We both knew what the outcome would be. I love him, I watched him grow up, I protected his honor, stuck up for him when he was in trouble with the church and his family, helped him set up in business, and sitting in the dark across the desk from him I had to advise him to just hang in there as long as he could. He has to pretend that he hates me or else it would be over for him.

I want him to keep his family in tact. If he was found out, his family would be married off to his brother faster than you could sing a hymn. He knows it and I know it. He is just one of 30 or more young men who are in the same fix. With all they are worth they need to hang in there until this monster is tamed. Hopefully their families will be able to see what has happened.

Now in defense of Uncle Louis. None of those Barlow boys had the slightest idea that their being adjusted would be anything like it turned out to be. I think it would have been a different story if they would have stood up and said, "something is wrong" to their families. Instead their families went brain dead with them. The king men who rested control of the government and set themselves up had no opposition to their slaughter. Oh for one good man who loves freedom, who could take his coat on the end of a spear and march for out religion, our wives and children, and for our freedom. Where is Moroni of the Nephites when you need him?

Anonymous said...

The BArlow BOys got back the Karma they dished out in the 80-s and 90-s with the centennial park boys aint karma a b----?

ATAR_i said...

I don't understand many of the actions of family members toward each other. I truly believe given different circumstances, these families would behave differently.

Hang in there, and hopefully there will be some awakenings in the community that will turn the tide.

onthestreet said...

He also destroys nations in his infinate love. Alot of "Jesus Freaks" fail to tell the whole story. He is a God of war, and does battle against evil, regardless of the family or nation in which it lurks. And why? Because "I cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance."

You ask, "would you shun your children?" God says: "I shun the evil doer." God's love may be boundless, but so is his hate: "These six things doth the Lord HATE. . ."

Now, having said that: Some comfort is in order. The repentant soul shall find a higher degree of glory and peace, both in this world and in the next. Repent, which we all must do, and be of good cheer in doing that.

fttc said...

Atar
You are right. I know one of these young teenagers who left. He was not literally kicked out but there's not a lot of difference. His mother still loves him and will talk to him when no one is looking. His father has told him he does not agree with Warren but won't say it loud enough for the mother to hear. It is pathetic. If it was not for the prophetical pressure they would reach out and help the son. As it is they are too cowardly to do so. The boy has been into drugs, alchohol and the other vices so many of them turn to. Fortunately for him he has some family on the outside that is trying to help. His father even appealed to some of them to help him. I don't think anyone can understand the actions of these families toward their members. They don't understand it themselves.

ATAR_i said...

Where is OTS - and who are you?

Anonymous said...

OTS done flipped his lid!

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ATAR_i said...

"God has boundless hate"<----by OTS

is a very unsupported statement made by someone who's trying to rationalize the hatred erupting out of himself.

onthestreet said...

I too "hate six things, yea seven are an abomination," as the Lord himself has said. Is your Lord a liar? And has he not destroyed millions, and entire empires. Where is Babylon, Assyria, Persia, Greece, Rome, etc. Those empires are GONE, and yet raise again their deformed heads.

ATAR_i said...

I take issue with "boundless"

boundless = infinite
six = something I can almost count on one hand

It is YOU my friend who make God a liar.

onthestreet said...

God in his infinate love has decreed that only a tiny elect "few" will find IT (him, his heaven, his presence, eternal life). And why? Because his infinate love for perfection is balanced by his infinate hate for imperfection. He will never be satisfied with his children until they are perfect like unto himself.

onthestreet said...

Anything of God is boundless, whether it be his love or his hate. And why? Because God is boundless. So all things that pertain to him are boundless. See, Atar.

Anonymous said...

All these deadbeats could go see their children every other weekend if they wanted, and they could do it for free. State law provides for minimum visitation rights. Come on fathers, lets get started. Don't let your children forget their last names.

onthestreet said...

You may even count but one finger, which to God is boundless, for even his singular finger is boundless, as is his oneness.

ATAR_i said...

God in his infinate love has decreed that only a tiny elect "few" will find IT

says who?

And

Don't you find that a tad convenient. Almost like two kids in a treehouse where one decides that only kids with blue striped shoes are cool (of course - he's wearing blue striped shoes...)

Sounds childish and completely unsported scripturally - OH, unless you mean he made the scripture to back it up.

OH man - back in elementary school.

onthestreet said...

One child is infinately loved by God, as well as "deadbeat" dads, if they are left in better hands. If such fathers obey, they are better than the sacrifice. Abraham sacrificed his only elect child (as God himself did), yet they live, and infinately more so because of obedience. Obedience is better than sacrifice, yet both are crucial.

ATAR_i said...

You sure do like to twist everything up into such a tight little ball, that debating you is pointless, because you make no point, just a tightly wound string of meaningless statements tacked onto the next so that there is no flow, no point, no message.

While you might find this an admirable quality, I find it deceptive and a method of argument.

Are you a great deceiver?

onthestreet said...

Atar: Not much of a goddess at that rate. I say, "Few will find it," and you spew forth "says who?"

Says your Redeemer (Mt.7:14, 20:16)

Yes, you are back in elementary school.

onthestreet said...

See! The joke's on you:
Where's your flow, your point, and your message? You greatly deceive yourself.

ATAR_i said...

NO,

He doesn't say it the way you say it. With a satisfaction of being superior.

and I really like Matthew 7 verse 15 - read it.

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them.

warren sure has lots of bad fruit (by his own standards)

onthestreet said...

He HAD alot of bad apples, but he sorted the bushel.

ATAR_i said...

He *is* the bad apple dear.

Faithful Woman said...

by his own standards, warren has left a lot of "bad" apples to rot in his basket, but then they were his favorite flavor.

onthestreet said...

Ohh, she's coming onto me again. Now I'm her "Dear".

Yes, God and his watchmen "will rule with a rod of iron," (Rev. 2:27), and will be fearsome to all who hurt and make afraid, and who seek to degrade the women and children of God's church.

To all such, they WILL INDEED be a BAD APPLE!

onthestreet said...

Faithless Woman said:
"they were his favorite flavor", not knowing that he also feasts on meats:

"The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it." (Prov. 30:17)

The Lord will call many to the feast.

ATAR_i said...

Actually I meant the 'dear' in a patronizing way - so don't get the wrong idea.

warren <------bad apple, false prophet

onthestreet said...

God's word: "ALL THE WORLD IS DECEIVED." (Rev. 18:23).

ATAR_i said...

That actually would include....warren and you.

onthestreet said...

He and his are not of this world.

ATAR_i said...

That's a load of theistic hogwash, his parents had sex, and voila - he was born.

I've had my quota of absurd poppycock drivel for the night - gotta go feed the horses.

onthestreet said...

Now there you will get some drivel, and when you feed the pigs don't forget the hogwash. For you know nothing of Immaculate Conception, nor do you care about it. Am I right?

ATAR_i said...

I don't have pigs - and I know of only ONE immaculate conception - the son of God - There has NOT been any more - that's just twaddle.

onthestreet said...

I'm talking about feeding yourself, Atar, for you are in starvation mode and lack much.

"As a jewel of gold in a swine's snout, so is a fair woman which is without discretion." (Prov. 11:22)

ATAR_i said...

How did you know I was on a diet?

Oh, yeah, one of those psychic's - she's a woman - she must be on a diet. I'm offended, truly grievously offended. I most certainly am NOT on a diet - I look quite fine just as I am thankyouverymuch.

And, if you were any learned man, with any experience with women - you would KNOW never to talk about a womans figure - it's vexing.

Anonymous said...

Street, could you tell on your wedding night that Kate was not pure??

R2K said...

Very interesting web page!

ATAR_i said...

ewwww anon - this is getting good.

Faithful Woman said...

Excuse me, Street is definately NOT David Draper. Leave Kate out of this dastardly conersation.

ATAR_i said...

he's not?

Faithful Woman said...

no. David was somewhat quite. When the Drapers first moved down from Salt Lake, he frminded me of the bossy big brother who was trying to keep the wayward younger brothers in line. But he would not stoop to the indecent retorts that Street uses.

Kate is a nice person, just trying to do what she is told. Well, there is the redhead syndrome going on there too.

There I go again, being harshly honest.

Faithful Woman said...

quiet

onthestreet said...

You being harsh? You called it indecent retort, out of the abundance of the heart.

Anonymous said...

I think you are off your rocker Faithful. Mention Kate and OTS doesn't touch the thread for a while.

Anonymous said...

Which man is Kate with tonight Street?

Faithful Woman said...

Maybe she is his sister.

onthestreet said...

She is my sister.

Anonymous said...

And your childrens Mother!

Faithful Woman said...

try Darger

Faithful Woman said...

Any of Lee Darger's kids in phoenix?

Now those, and some of Ronny's kids I would believe could have such sharp, vindictive tongues

onthestreet said...

Vindictive? Same root as Vine, thus to dictate from a vine. And all the prophets shall be vindicated.

Anonymous said...

Hey Faithful!

Honest is a nice change for you! But I really dont think you have any idea what that really is. You just like to pass off your warped opinions as gospel truth. One thing, though, it was really nice for a change to hear you defend an innocent victim like Kate. It sounds like you could actually be a nice person if you really wanted to.

Anonymous said...

to Anon 9:17

Who the HELL do you think you are calling Kate unclean?

Do you sleep under other people's beds? Or are you the one that made her that way? Only a damn child molester would think like you.

I hope that you suffer 1,000 times the hurt and humiliation that you put others through, you son-of-a-bitch.

I hope that someone rapes your reputation and leaves you to burn in public.

Go back to your porn sites and leave your filthy comments off this blog.

New Kid on the Blog

Anonymous said...

It is amazing to me that followers of Christ, (who stated that the great commandment in the law is love of God and the second is love of neighbor) preach the importance of families but practice the division and separation of families in every step from conversion to disfellowshiping, shunning and excommunication. I have family members that claim allegiance to LDS, 'The Work', Catholic, Baptist, and so on. They each claim to have 'God's Love', and the only true path and that makes it okay to leave their parents, siblings, children, grandchildren behind as they are now a bad influence and a threat to their faith and personal salvation. All of the websites that are devoted to proving the wrongness and cultishness of everyone else only further convince me that all groups operate at the tribal or adolescent level of development. The arguments, morals and lifestyles of those who claim to be atheists or agnostics exhibit more love and responsibilty for family and community than I have seen in any organized religion.

Anonymous said...

how dare any of you talk bad about any woman or even another woman

you may be righteous, but you have no class

kate's ok in my book and i have not even a clue who she is

keep sweet eldorado
stg

ATAR_i said...

I have no idea who Kate is. But I do know something. Her character was assaulted out of the blue, by an anonymous man. When a women came to her defense, she was verbally assaulted.

It's not a very gentleman-like response in any circle to harass a woman like that. A good man, in my book would never have uncovered a lady like that.

I have heard in FLDS society, that women are not well regarded. I believe certain men learned from fathers, or from an inate sense of honor they should do better, but I don't think it was encouraged or taught.

I don't mind a good skirmish, and sometimes I get a little fightsty, and I can see a man who might do the same thing - but this situation doesn't seem that way.

mugwump said...

I am in the middle of re-reading Zane Gray's "Riders of the Purple Sage", originally published in 1909.

I have found no other popular, mainstream author who seems to completely understand the selfish hunger for absolute power as do the Mormon bishops and elders.

They use this power, the power of ex-communication, or it's threat, to enforce their (god's) will upon their flock.

They do not serve my God. Their god is reflected in their own mirror each time they view themselves as they shave.

Their flock is continously beeing "fleeced" in an attempt to make the LDS church the greatest economic force in the world.

I don't remember where heard it, but I do remember having been told several years ago that Mormon Church was the largest economic power west of the Mississippi, with the possible exception of Wells Fargo.

The church's goal is to monopolize commerce to further their Prophet's goal of total economic power.

Beside their own reflection in the mirror, their god is colored green with a president's or other great American's picture embossed upon it's surface.

Upon close observation they don't begin to know the meaning of love. To them it has the total meaning of Eros. They know nothing about Philiea or certinly not Agape. They only seek power. If their members desire love, then, and only then, is their brand of "love" handed out, as a reward for total obedience.

Their's is indeed a sick society. I grieve for their false sense of security within their church, earned as a whimsey, only granted as a benevolent act by their despotic clergy.

The tearing apart of entire families, the assignment of those families to other men, deemed more faithful than the natural father is only one example of the corrupt leadership of the Mormon culture.

fttc said...

Mugwump

There seems to ba a hint of jealousy in your post here. I realize from your former posts that you have an aversion to the Mormon faith but why attack the entire Mormon religion and falsely accuse them of doing the things that one breakoff renegade madman is doing? You would be much more effective in your arguement if you would use more facts in your accusations. And you start out using an author who wrote sensation to sell his books! I have read the book you are referring to. He wrote his stories based on the prevalent rumors and popular feelings about the Mormons at the time. Surely you can make your points more effectively.

onthestreet said...

Now that you all got that out of you, put your arms around each other, and of course leave Kate alone.

Stinger said...

Mugwump, maybe you should try reading Louis L' Amour. He writes a way better story and he puts way more research into what he writes. Try Bendigo Shafter.

Anonymous said...

Straight Shot says,
You know Street, you are incredible! "He and his are not of this world." Your use and allusion to scripture in regard to Warren Jeffs and his twisted games is amazing you defy description.

I wish the space ship from the X-files would come gather him and his most chosen few and "Hie to Kolob" with them -- if he and they are truly not of this world. As a matter of fact is Warren Jeffs is who you say he is he could just use his power from "his god" and they'd all be gone in the twinkling of an eye. Then if we got a chance to get into his "Yearning for Zion" prison we'd be able to help the people he decided were "unclean" at the last moment.

I've got your number though Streety and you best keep watch because I'll be there when you least expect it. Try to stay out of the sun, when you go for walks, try to remember that - if you walk for 10 miles without water, you will have to have the strength left to walk back. The body goes into shock at a certian level of dehydration and then you will wither and die under a cactus. I calculate that will be less painful than what you go through most of the time.

There has to be some purpose under the sun that you are still alive and I have a feeling that you need me again. I've got the right medicine for you and I'm on my way.

Just to leave you with a thought --if Warren Jeffs were truly not of this world he would be living the way Christ did -- not destroying business, people and familites. He would be getting his food from the feilds and the last thing he would waste money on is a temple.

Christ worked in the streets with the beggars, in the leper colonies and when the time came he stood in front of kings, magistrates, and priests. He never once skulked around like the serpent in the garden of Eden -- and Christ never once hid behind women, children, and little boys.

I'm worried about you Street - seek and you shall find -- and when you hear a knock it will be me and I'll take care of you -- forever.

For God, for Country and Family!!!

Anonymous said...

Street: "...and of course leave Kate alone."

...now you're talking, Street

like a man that is

stg

mugwump said...

fttc

I might take issue with you regarding my lack of reference in my preceding blog provided that Joseph Smith's "book of mormon", his "d & c's", or his "pearl of great price" had ANY references recorded in the ancient literature of any culture, or any archeological evidence anywhere to support his claims. Smith's myths are an outrageous insult to litrature, to faith in A single "I AM" (GOD ALMIGHTY) instead of his plural gods reigning on many planets.

Smith's writings are a self promoting lie that has led many otherwise good people into a false faith. Anyone who would promote the absurd idea that a good man, living an upright priestly life, supporting a belief in three levels of heaven, claimiming that both GOD ALMIGHTY and JESUS the Christ were mere men and claiming that godhood is atainable by man is a perfect example of idolatry in it's most elementary form.

My argument is not simply addressed to polygamists, but to all who profess mormonism as truth. Go ahead, without reference to the three works named above, moroni, mormon or any other mythical heavenly personality not specifically named in the Bible were created in Smith's immigination, were delusions, and simply never existed.

Your missionary boys have knocked on my door. They allways travel in pairs so one can bail the other out when the spoksman is backed into a theologicl corner and asked to prove his claim as to the truth of their religion, apart from Smith's writings.

God provided a complete salvation for mankind as recorded in the Bible. Why would the complete gospel need any commentary or improvment by a free-wheeling charlatan? What an ego trip!!!

Anonymous said...

Ya, Mugwump!

But aint America grand? We all get to choose what we believe and who we will worship! There are a lot of really stupid religions out there. Presleyterian's that worship Elvis. (I am not making this up!) Scientologists. Etc. Etc. It takes all kinds to make this world, and I say God (Allah, Budda, Elvis, Whoever..) Bless them all.

New Kid on the Blog

divaqs said...

In reply to mugwump:
"Joseph Smith's 'book of mormon', his 'd & c's', or his 'pearl of great price' had ANY references recorded in the ancient literature of any culture"

I doubt I will be able to change your mind, but this statement actually isn't true.
One small example of this is Christ's statement in the New Testament that he has other sheep he goes to visit.
There are numerous historical references that fill a number of books.

You also wrote:
"or any archeological evidence anywhere to support his claims."

Actually you are mistaken on this point as well. Just recently I took a trip to Guatemala and first hand got to see some great archeological evidence for myself.
I think you'd be surprised how much archeology there is that actually backs up the Book of Mormon.

You wrote:
"Smith's myths are an outrageous insult to litrature"

It depends on what literature you are speaking of. From an arabic language perspective there is a poetic nature to the way some things are written.

You wrote:
"to faith in A single 'I AM' (GOD ALMIGHTY) instead of his plural gods reigning on many planets."

This statement by you is a perpetuation of a misunderstanding.

I doubt anything I say will ever change your mind, but I wanted you and others to know that there is actually considerable evidence contrary to the statements you made.

The real key is not what any man or woman says, but what God says for himself.

Anonymous said...

To New Kid on the Blog

Yes America is grand, and I appreciated your last comment excluding the words "There are alot of realy stupid religions out there". You contradicted yourself. Let's remember that we are all God's children. And whatever religion Joe Blow or Jane Pane chooses, is their/our choice and we should respect each other so long as we are not treading on other's rights and choices....God bless us all. Amen.

ATAR_i said...

Divaqs

He visits other sheep? Hmmmmm - you'll have to provide a reference. I know he leaves the 99 to find the one lost sheep - but that's not a parable about traveling to South America my friend.

And, since I happen to have a relative who actually lived in Guatemala for half a century - there are artifacts - they just don't happen to be from the BOM

If you haven't taken a peek at the DNA mapping of the South American people - please do - happened to have been done by a mormon - who was almost excommunicated for printing the results (they weren't even remotely related to anyone jewish or from that area of the globe).

The fruits and minerals mentioned in the BOM didn't actually exist in South America. I found on a mormon archeologist site that they realize that the BOM is largely a work of fiction. I was stunned when I read it, and even more stunned the guy was still a mormon.

Bottom line. You can't equate a recently published work by a man of questionable character, and put it on the same level as a text that's thousands of years old, with multiple sources, and absolutely no 'jot or tiddle' of it can be shown to be false - by archeology and science.

fttc said...

Anon 9:58

I didn't think New Kid made such a contradiction. We all have our opinions. Anyone who will be honest with themselves will have to say they think some other religions are stupid. This comes from our individual perspective. This is the point I was trying to get through to Mugwump. Having said that I want to emphasize that no one has a right to infringe on anothers religious beleif no matter how stupid it may appear. This is a large part of the problem we have with Warren's followers. Most of them sincerely beleive he is who he claims to be. We have no right to interfere with that. Now Warren is being charged with breaking laws, he has infringed on unsuspecting youth. He has been the moving force behind creating delinquency. As this action infringes on society as a whole we have every right to call him to an accounting for it. Of course this is done through the government channels. Remember a government "for the people, of the people, by the people".

ATAR_i said...

fttc

So true. You believe what you believe. Many people don't have a faith of any kind - because they 'can't believe at all'.

All religions require a measure of faith, belief in something beyond their understanding. We might view each other like 'are you crazy buddy?', but turnabout is fair play.

I think dialogue - even though sometimes brutal, and sometimes angry and harsh is helpful. Especially if you have never had anyone question your faith before.

In the end, you have to make the decision for yourself what you believe, and a little pressure, and thought provocation should help you make your informed decision.

So, I think we need to try and play nice - but PLEASE - don't stop the dialogue - it's interesting, thought provoking, and we can handle it.

I don't want to be like warren - controlling what you hear, not asking questions. Controlling the information that is let in lest someone stray. I don't buy that philosophy - so I say don't stop the dialogue.

fttc said...

Ok so where do you get that Joseph Smith was a man of questionable character. He was arrested 52 times and jailed 48 but not one of those times was he found guilty of any crime worthy of his treatment. He was definitely a man that had great infuence and to this day induces jealousy among rival religions. Because of this he was viewed under a microscope and his enemies did all they could to harrass him. His teachings are very revolutionary and hence hard for some to accept. I think you rely heavily on modern science to say the artifacts in Guatemala are not BOM. This same science will tell you the story of Adam is fictitous. How do you reconcile your last statement of "jot and tiddle"?

Anonymous said...

gosh!!!!!!!!!!! get back to the subject at hand.. mugwump et al go start your own thread about how wrong mormonism is Sheesh!!!
Napoleon

fttc said...

Anon 11:15

Give us something to steer us back on topic or quit complaining!

ATAR_i said...

His character to me seemed questionable (not meaning a hideous criminal) but just perhaps not the man of all righteousness and truth he is made out to be. Perhaps just a man, a regular man wanting a life of adventure.

For instance - his translation of the 'book of Abraham' written in egyptian - which couldn't be translated at that time (no one could translate heiroglyphics) - although he *could read it* and translated it. His tranlation has been proven to be bogus and entirely incorrect.

Then, it turns out - even the book is a fabrication.

"it is difficult to deal seriously with Joseph Smith's impudent fraud....the hieroglyphics upon it have been copied so ignorantly that hardly one of them is correct."

"It may be safely said that there is not one single word that is true in these explanations"

"The Book of Abraham, it is hardly necessary to say, is a pure fabrication"

"Joseph Smith's interpretation of these cuts is a farrago of nonsense from beginning to end. Egyptian characters can now be read as easily as Greek, and five minutes study in an Egyptian gallry of any museum should be enough to convince any educated man of the clumsiness of the imposture"

There is TOOO MUCH MORE, but you get the gist.

Then there was how he got some of his wives.

He wanted other mens wives - He asked Sarah Pratt (not her husband) told her that she was given to HIM as a plural wife (despite the fact she was married to someone else). This woman threatened if he kept harassing her, she would expose her, he in turn stated if she did - he would ruin her reputation.

http://www.xmission.com/~country/reason/spratt.htm

He attempted to seduce William Law's life Jane - and they were both made apostates when the husband confronted Joseph.

Hiram Kimball's wife, Sarah; Adam Lightner's wife, Mary; Orson Hyde's wife, Marinda; Windsor Lyon's wife, Sylvi; Normal Buell's wife, Prescindia; Henry Jacob's wife, Zina;

You can read those accounts on the web somewhere if you search.

Do his abuses seem similar in any way? I suppose slightly different - but NOT so different than *exactly* what your fighting now.

The golden tablets (which anyone who actually saw them - only saw them *in their head* not with their eyes). They appear to be a figment of Joseph's imagination. He tranlated them with a stone at his kitchen table. The BOM has proven to be largely a work of fiction.

So yeah - I question the character of a man who fabricates documents, then interprets them, and then in both instances, they are proven to be false.

How he treated his followers, took his wives,....yeah I question his character.

ATAR_i said...

The difference is that some people don't 'believe' the story of Adam'. Is not the same as saying that the story has been scientifically disproved.

divaqs said...

In reply to ATAR_i,

You will find the reference to other sheep in John 10:16

"And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd."

When I visited Guatemala, I was really impressed by the differences between the early mayan and classic mayan differences. The early mayan culture fits with the time period of the Book of Mormon. The following classic mayan period took part in human sacrifice, leaders wearing animal skins, shaving heads, etc, etc... which is described in the Book of Mormon as pertaining to the Lamanites (who destroyed the Nephite based government and religious structure which is detailed in the Book of Mormon)

There is a stark difference in religion displayed between the early Mayan and classic Mayan cultures... For example in Tikal, the early Mayan culture built 3 platforms dedicated to the 3 gods who created the universe. The following classic mayans then built temples on top of those platforms that were dedicated to kings, queens, rain gods and harvest gods....

In Tikal they found hieroglyphics describing a great war with a neighboring group that coincides with the final war in the Book of Mormon that wiped out the Nephite leadership.

There is a sunken city in Lake Atitlan in Guatemala that was sunk at the time described in the Book of Mormon due to massive volcanic eruptions (also described in the book of Mormon)

Etc. etc.. etc... etc..

BYU has a really strong archeology program that keeps discovering more and more evidence supporting the Book of Mormon.

As for food and animals... not matching... an easy explanation is that while translating the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith wasn't familiar with the animals or plants, so he used the closest ones he knew of....

I know that nothing I say can convince you... But the statement that there is no archeological evidence is totally false.

As always, the only real way to know is to ask God for yourself.

ATAR_i said...

Believe me, for 20 years as a young girl I looked up to certain leaders like 'true men of God', and when someone says something about them - you just slough it off - you find a way to rationalize it. The leaders are *so tough* on the followers, but allow themselves such grace.

You get so caught up in the phenomena that only your group knows the 'real truth' BTW - only my group did (yeah right).

But slowly, on my own, I began to see the thing I could not see before - and see my snobbish, prudish, self righteous, I know everything, I'm better than you attitude as black. It's just black to be like that in your heart. And, I didn't want that.

So, I went back to the one book I knew to be true, and started from there. I can't claim to have all the answers, and know all the truth. But once you've been close to monsters - they are easier to recognize in the dark.

Sometimes things are...just what they are.

Sometimes good men have hideous sinfull habits - are they worse than me (no), am I better than them (no), my little or big failings are colored with the same stain - I AM just as in need of forgiveness as any any.

divaqs said...

In reply to ATAR_i,

You wrote:
"The golden tablets (which anyone who actually saw them - only saw them *in their head* not with their eyes)."

I am afraid that this is an incorrect statement. In the front of the Book of Mormon you will find a listing of the 11 witnesses who saw, lifted, and felt the pages of the "Gold Plates".

You wrote:
"They appear to be a figment of Joseph's imagination.... The BOM has proven to be largely a work of fiction."

This is a matter of opinion.

I've seen the website you listed. It mixes opinion with historical records as if they were the same, often takes things out of context, makes some completely false statements, and is very biased (one-sided).

ATAR_i said...

From a mormon, Thomas W. Murphy who did the DNA testing

He decided to examine whether DNA analysis would confirm that many, perhaps most, Native Americans are descended from ancient Israelites. According to the LA Times, "He analyzed data collected by a multimillion-dollar 'molecular genealogy' project at Brigham Young [University] as well as other, similar projects that track ancestry from people worldwide via DNA in blood samples."

Murphy concluded that over the last few thousand years, modern-day Jews and modern-day Native Americans do not share common ancestors. If they did, then genetic markers would be found in Natives identical to those in the descendents of ancient Hebrews. He concluded that: "the Book of Mormon is a piece of 19th century fiction. And that means that we have to acknowledge sometimes Joseph Smith lied." However, he believes that "the book might be fiction, but inspired as well."

divaqs said...

Hi ATAR_i,

I really hear what you are saying about blindly following... I determined when I was about 14 that I wouldn't just blindly follow, but needed to know things for myself....

That is partly why I make it a point to really study and verify (and not just my own religion) and to get answers for myself. I have so much to yet learn. One of the next things on my list is to study the Koran.

I have really been trying to understand the FLDS faith... which is what draws me here.

ATAR_i said...

Did any of those 11 remain faithful to the mormon faith?

I believe the answer is that each of those men died OUT of the mormon faith. I cannot find that reference.

I do believe the account of these men does state that they only saw it *in their minds, as god revealed it*. You might want to check that out.

divaqs said...

I saw the study.

I also know of an explanation concerning it...

Within the Book of Mormon it repeatedly describes there being so many more Lamanites then Nephites, despite their original family split being about equal. It also describes there being many groups of people, but in a couple of locations says that to simplify the religious oriented message, lumps the differing groups into two major groups Lamanites (non-believers) and Nephites (believers).
The reason why there were so many groups and so many more Lamanites is due to there being a sizeable population already present on the America's before the coming of the Jewish family. In the Book of Mormon this is mentioned as well (Jaredites).

I am really not here to argue with you.

divaqs said...

Hi atar_i,

I found a very thorough and scientific response to the non-Mormon Dr. Thomas W. Murphy's book:

http://www.fairlds.org/apol/bom/bom12.html

To summarize, Dr. Murphy's study would have failed to find the DNA evidence for other historically known Isreal groups over comparable time periods.

As I've said before, the only one that you can truly trust is God.... placing trust in a person sets you up to be tricked or manipulated.

So ask God....

fttc said...

Atar

My point about Adam was that the bible states that he was the first man. Science has 'evidence' that man was here on earth millions of years before the period the bible sets for his appearing here. You cannot get around this without some twisting of the stated word. Either the bible is wrong or science is wrong.

fttc said...

Some of the witnesses died out of the LDS faith but not all. All did leave it at some point. A few of them returned. It is interesting to note however that in spite of them leaving the church not one of them ever denied that part of their testimony. One man who was a lawyer after leaving the church was being heckled in court for his testimony, the opposition thought they could make him look bad. He stood before the court and defended the fact that he had seen the plates and an angel had shown them to him.

onthestreet said...

Man's science is always flawed.
Man's mind always in a wad.
Man's words are always suspect.
Man's works to never respect.

Anonymous said...

I was raised in Bountiful B.C. everyone knew everyone, and all the mothers watched out for the children. In case of an emergency or tragedy there was always someone there to help and comfort. I grow up in a very healthy environment, our community has grown many times the size it was and we have split in diffront directions. I still hope and pray for my friends, and I hope to raise my children to be honest hard working citizens. I love my husband, and he is a wonderful father.
Me and my father are on different sides of the divion and he is still very supportive of my disions. he still wants to be the grandpa to my children I truly have been blest.
that is all I have to say about fathers

divaqs said...

ATAR_i,

I owe you an apology. Dr. Thomas Murphy is Mormon.

I found details at:
http://mormonalliance.org/

Native Lonestar said...

Mugwump,Listen to a little Texas wisdom.My Opinion about Joe Smith and Mormonism is close to yours.BUT
Christ said "Give offense to no man"This applies to Mormons as well.You will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.Hateful accusations should be on Recovering from Mormonism blog,,Not texas polygamy blog.

ATAR_i said...

Good chat today - I really enjoyed it and I thank all that participated. I have to say - those are the chats that are most fun to me. People make great points - I make a few, and we all learn a little bit more about each other.

Thanks!

onthestreet said...

You're very welcome.

Anonymous said...

OnTheSreet want to know who is most welcome?Your old Pal Warren steed Jeffs?He is very,very welcome
please invite him,and kathleen as well,We just cant wait to takle you all for picnic!

Anonymous said...

...And why not..everything else that we used to believe in is a lie...why not the BOM too?

onthestreet said...

WHY NOT GOD?

Anonymous said...

psalm 28 Unto thee I will cry, O Lord, my rock; be not silent to me;lest, I become like them that go down unto the pit. 2 hear the voice of my supplications, when I cry unto thee, when I lift up my hands towards thy holy oracle. 3 Draw me not away with the wicked, and with the workers of iniquity, which speak peace to their neighbors, but mischief is in their hearts. 4 give them according to their deeds, and according to the wickedness of their endeavors; give them after the work of their hands; render to them their desert. 5 Because they regarded not the works of the Lord, nor the operation of his hands, he shall destroy them, and not build them up. 6 Blessed be the Lord, because he hath heard the voice of my supplications. 7 The Lord is my streagnth and my shield' my heart trusted in him, and I am helped; therefore my heart greatly rejoiceth; and with my song will I praise him. 8 The Lord is their streangth and he is the saving strngth of his anointed. 9 Save thy people, and bless thine inheritance; feed them also, and llift them up for ever.

mugwump said...

fttc 7/7/05 10:14 am
re. Anon. 9:58 am

as mugwump, I have a responsibility and a right to go fishing. Whether with a net or with bait-hook & line. mugwump follows his/her concience.

You have a right to accept or reject that bait and/or keep away from the net.

Each time mugwump makes an observation it strikes either a note of agreement or a note of opposition.

This is a form of debate. Mormans fear that their underlings, wives, children, concubines etc. will read one of these posts and begin thinking for themselves. Should a thinking process be triggered in the minds and hearts of those oppressed, and named above, mugwump's fishing trip has been a success. And that dear friends is the whole purpose of this effort.

Atar_i

I admire your feisty and educated contributions and your obvious intellect. I wish I had the time available to enter into the debate more vigorusly. God Bless your clear mind and obvious concern for those who are under the control of dangerous despots.

Anonymous said...

To the one that said "Hateful accusations should be on Recovering from Mormonism blog,"

That's OK. I think all of us here need help with the Recovering from FLDS...We have alot of issues from cutting hair to painting our toenails and natural childbirth to drinking coffee. Most of all, our belief structure is teetering...I'm back to barely learning to pray..after all God let this happen to me

ATAR_i said...

God doesn't cause it to happen, but he does allow things to happen. Usually because he knows if we respond and work through it - good can still come from a bad situation.

So yeah, paint your toenails - enjoy your coffee, enjoy all the good things, and remember to thank God for them : )

Faithful Woman said...

God will not take our free agency away from us. We are free to choose, and we are responcible for our choices. So, be informed as best you can before you make those decisions.

fttc said...

I suppose maybe I was more blesed than those who think they are "recovering" from FLDS. I have never thought I had anything to recover from. My parents taught me correct principles in my youth and I have tried to stand by them. The good fruits of following these principles are daily apparent in my life. Yes, I have been cast off by those who hijacked the leadership but I have only pity for the hijackers and those who agreed to let it happen.

Mugwump would have me believe I am something less than normal because I believe in Joseph Smith and his teachings. I have to class him/her with those who are having to recover from FLDS. They are either ignorant of or prejudiced against that man's teachings. If Warren had followed the principles JS taught we would not be posting here.

Now, Mugs don't take me wrong. I am in no way offended by your opinions. Atar is right that dialogue such as this is good for all of us. Contrary to your belief that I don't want my family and friends to see this though, I have printed out some of your postings and handed them to family and friends. Anything that will make them think and check into facts will only strengthen their faith in the truth.

To all those who are cast out or leaving the creek I would say go back to your roots. Study the words of Jesus and Joseph. Learn the truths that your parents failed to teach you. It is not our religion that has failed us, but we who have failed that religion.

Anonymous said...

I personally would LOVE to see a "recovering from FLDS" thread or even a blog dedicated to that. I envision a place where people can go and find old friends, support from people going through the same thing and general advice to make it through "normalizing" ourselves into mainstream society.

We have for so long been isolated from reality and brainwashed--yes, it's true; don't start the big rant--about the "gentiles" that most of us expatriates don't know how to hold a decent job or manage our credit, let alone know who to turn to for help.

It would be really awesome to have a resource for reference and friendships based on that common ground. Anyone?

Anonymous said...

Thank-you fttc, that was very well put.

mugwump said...

fttc

Thank you for thinking me a worthy opponent. I must have made some comment that either you deducted as highly inflammatory or worthy of serious thought and thorough research. How many non-mormons view J. Smith's rise to fame and fortune is still a topic of discussion. Mormon history, from J.S.'s day to the present has been well documented by a non-mormon press. Many other students of history have reached similar conclusions as mine. I still think the whole thing is a grand hoax.

fttc said...

Mugwump

Now you have piqued my curiosity. You seem to have a pretty good handle on the anti-mormon side of the history. What made you interested enough to look so far? Are you a minister? Do you come from Mormon stock?

Anonymous said...

GETTING BACK TO THE TOPIC

I refuse to ignore my child, but it is getting harder to come in contact with her. She has fixed the phone so I cannot phone from my home to hers. I have to call from somewhere else, and then she hangs up on me if any other people are at her house. Her husband doesn't trust her, and keeps someone with her at all times to PROTECT her from her family who dearly love her. She rarely goes anywhere, because she might accidentally meet up with some of US in town. She won't give me pictures of my grandchildren, and has returned all the pictures she ever had of US. I wonder if this is a common thing, or is it just a few who are doing this? Knowing how much she has always loved pictures, and how much work she puts into photo pages, this must be something she has been told to do.

Anonymous said...

I guess Warren's followers
forgot this commandment.

Genesis 20:12 Honor your father and mother, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the Lord your God gives you.

This commandment comes with a condition.

When will the Warrenites figure out by his actions and directions Warren is not the mouthpiece of God.

Faithful Woman said...

warren told the folks to get rid of all pictures of anyone but imideate family who are with warren, or of course, him. That was some time ago, around the decree to not have the heart shape in the house.

onthestreet said...

Well Put, Anony: 7/08/2005 2:07 AM

That is the lamentation of the Prophet Warren, as it was the Prophet Rulon Jeffs. It is also mine, and yours.

onthestreet said...

Anony: 7/10/2005 9:01 PM

"And who is thy mother, the father, thy brother, etc."
(Jesus Christ). He's the one who questions the validity of natural parents when they turn against the will of the Father of the church of God, and of the Father in heaven.

You conveniently ignore and neglect and blaspheme the Word of God and His Christ.

ATAR_i said...

Why can't you have the shape of a heart in your house? (what was the rationale).

Any other odd stuff like that?

I heard about 'throwing away the books with all the naked children' (BOM cartoons and childrens books)

onthestreet said...

Right, pure fantasy imposed upon things holy. In such directives to cast them out, there you see a true prophet in action.

onthestreet said...

You will note that the phony shape of the heart points downward to hell, a trick of the devil. The true heart look upward to heaven.

onthestreet said...

. . .looks up.

Faithful Woman said...

I wondered about what rational was behind that one, got me some good children's shoes cheep cause they had hearts on them. Really helped with school clothes shopping last year. thanks warren

Anonymous said...

somewhere out there doesnt anyone even think of the marriage covenent that says what god put together let no man put a sunder why did all of you women let warren distroy your familys my heart is broken for all of your children

Anonymous said...

all i see in cc is sadness and why not........ there whole world is distroyed.......ther fathers have gone away.....why.....mothers now say this other man is my father.....why...now my name is changed......why....i was so proud of my heratage.......my father.....my mothers union..warren you will pay...

ATAR_i said...

If you have a perverted mind - you can pervert any symbol. The heart just happened to be a casualty in this fight. They made something evil - which was good.

Hearts are for love - you made them lusty and evil - that's just weird and creepy.

onthestreet said...

7/11/2005 6:29 PM:


Yes, God put you together, but you put yourselves asunder. "Men will be punished for THEIR OWN sins, and not for "Adam's" transgressions." Don't blame the keyholder, for he administered the keys faithfully in your behalf.

If you are innocent, even HCK was innocent. Yet his wife was taken. Even Abr. was innocent. Yet his only child was taken. Even God was innocent. Yet his only Son was taken.

Anonymous said...

Back to the topic...

Where do people go if they need eyeglasses? Can you wear sunglasses?

How often do you see your husband and how do the women share his time?

onthestreet said...

Faithless Woman said (7/05/2005 8:08 PM):

"they were his favorite flavor" (rotten apples), not knowing that he also feasts on meats:

STREET'S Reply:
"The eye that mocketh at his father, and despiseth to obey his mother, the ravens of the valley shall pick it out, and the young eagles shall eat it." (Prov. 30:17)
The Lord will call many to the feast. 7/05/2005 8:17 PM

THEN, SHALL WE SAY, YOU WILL BE THE ROTTEN APPLE OF HIS EYE.

onthestreet said...

So why would you need any glasses at all, seeing that you "see" through a glass darkly?

mugwump said...

ots
"glass" refers to the reflection in a mirror. Mirrors were made of brass and polished to a high shine. plate glass is a relativly modern invention.

Old Joe Smith didn't need any kind of glass, he had x-ray vision and translated the book ov mormon while peering through a stone, if you believe that junk.

onthestreet said...

I am a believer. Crystal is stone, and "I can raise up seed from these stones."

ATAR_i said...

Hmmmm, I don't think so.

Anonymous said...

To anonymous who wanted a blog for healing: The problem is that it takes a few years for people who have left or been booted to break from the mess enough to dare be who they are instead of keep their head down and try to make sense of warren. They still don't dare talk out.

Anonymous said...

Man onthestreet, i have been reading your stuff, and you are doing more harm to your cause then good. Do all the Faithfull a favor and shut up.

Anonymous said...

How many people do you think were on that list for the new trust, will accually represent the little guys in all of this. the young ones that have only one wife trying to build a house and pay their bills. NOT EVEN ONE!!! Its a frickin joke, maybe winston would but the rest would let it go to their heads.

ATAR_i said...

I look at Winstons group in Canada and warrens group in CC and the difference is astounding. By the sounds of it, they were more similar way back.

Now, the Canadian group has people who can be "in" and be on this blog - like Stinger. They can have rodeo's buy houses, life seems normal, and beautiful.

In CC - everything is helter skelter, people are miserable, their prophet has left them, promising to not forget them (ok just the 12 year old girls), he's MOVED AWAY, and built another house - and he doesn't even live THERE because he's wanted for crimes.

You can always tell a tree by it's fruit - and fruit is something you are getting none this season - SOMETHING has to change. How are you all going to do it. Your prophet is GONE, and your town in a shambles. Is anyone leader enough. That old mayor of yours - is he any sort of leader - or just a follower? Is he mean - or does he have some spark of human compassion?

Anonymous said...

Fruit when ripe will fall from the tree to the ground. So will nuts.

Would it be possible that Warren is a new variety? perhaps he has to cling to the tree to be seen as a "healthy" nut by his diciples. I think he has fallen, maybe not all the way to the ground, maybe he landed in one of tree's forks. There can't be too many forks in his tree. He is the end product of constant in-breeding. Although he still clinging to the tree he is spiritually and culturaly dead.

Anonymous said...

Ya, when me an' atar_i were strolling through the town in ol' cc we saw a lot of the very same things. She saw shambles- I saw remodel. She saw helter-skelter. I saw little house on the prairy. She saw misery. I saw happiness. She saw people trying to hide their wrongs. I saw people shying away from the bias of the media. Ya. Me n' atar_i. We see things as we are.
Thanks for showing me an alternate veiwpoint. And for letting me share mine ;)

onthestreet said...

You can always tell a tree by it's fruit - 7/18/2005 9:18 AM

Anonymous said...
Fruit when ripe will fall from the tree to the ground. (10:22 AM)


STREET's Reply: The Lord said it best, through his Apostle:
"All that would live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (2 Tim.)

There's the fruits promised, and the proof of who is offending Satan the most, and pleasing God.

ATAR_i said...

I just didn't happen to have my reality shades on that day - YOU DID.

I don't doubt some people are well - but some people are NOT

I don't doubt some people are happy - but some people are NOT

If you can't see that - perhaps you shouldn't wear those shades so much - and take a harder look at reality.

Your probably the guy who pretends to be FLDS in his posts anyway.

A soul said...

That's so right street, you've finally got one. Only it's the warren supporters that are doing all the persecuting of those faithful to the teachings of Christ.

onthestreet said...

The FLDS certainly cut of what offends, as Christ commands. Thus is the FLDS. Obedient to him, in pruning the vine.

Anonymous said...

Nope, atar, I'm not the guy who pretends to be somethin' I aint.
Nor do I profess to have all the answers. I just feel like there ought to be a little more fairness on this blog.

I have worked with some of the very men who were arrested, and I have met one of the girls they were arrested for. She was very happy to be with her husband. There was no force as far as I could tell.
And those pictures of those guys were NOT good portrayals of them. They looked tweeked. I know Bob Barlow. He and his crew have worked for me and, though its been about a year since I've seen him, I remember him as quite handsome, or so my wife says.