Saturday, July 02, 2005

Garden of Eden and the Wandering Caine

For those of you who aren't FLDS, or who don't have the full tape of warrens teaching on 'the negro race' there are a few other suprises in that tape. I am just curious about these two stories in particular.

Firstly in warren's own words

"We rehearsed last time that the place of the Garden of Eden was Jackson County, Missouri. The source of that information was Heber C. Kimball."

Secondly a story about the wandering Caine

"Cain has been alive on the earth in some form of translation to where he cannot die. And he has been a tool of the devil to do a work."

"To show that Cain is still alive we read the children in history this quote from the book called Life of David W. Patton, page 49. "

"As I was riding along the road on my mule, I suddenly noticed a very strange personage walking beside me. He walked along beside me for about two miles. His head was about even with my shoulders as I sat in my saddle." So you can imagine how tall that was - very tall. "He wore no clothing but was covered with hair. His skin was very dark. I asked him where he dwelled and he replied that he had no home, that he was a wanderer in the earth and traveled to and fro. He said he was a very miserable creature, that he had earnestly sought death during his sojourn upon the earth, but that he could not die and his mission was to destroy the souls of men. About the time he expressed himself thus, I rebuked him in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ by virtue of the Holy Priesthood and commanded him to go hence, and he immediately departed out of my sight. When he left me, I found myself near your house."


ATAR_i said...

This really suprised me. Growing up fairly mainstream protestant it was my understanding that the Garden of Eden was someplace in the middle east. I hadn't realized until this point that LDS believed that the Garden of Eden actually existed within the city limits of Independence Missouri.

Secondly I know that Caine was sent away to the 'land of Nod' but I don't believe there was any biblical reference to his life 'never ending', and that he was trying to 'destroy the souls of men'.

So, both of these teachings seemed startling to me. And this was just one tape - I'm wondering all the other things that might not be *pageturners* but that are equally as odd to mainstream biblical beliefs.

Otremer said...

Hmmm, does this dark, hairy and immortal Cain have anyother passtimes than soul destruction? Imagine if he were to take up chess, Black Jack or tennis. Having all eternity to brush up his skills he would be the world champion and would undoubtedly be banned from every casino in Nevada or New Jersey. Suppose he were to just practice the popular passtime of procreation like everyone else? Can you imangine how many descendants he'd have by now! He could have any elective office he wanted and his genes would certainly skew the Genographic Project.

Anonymous said...

"He wore no clothing but was covered with hair. His skin was very dark."

I guess this could explain BIG FOOT.

Anonymous said...

Warren told us that Bigfoot is not a myth but just Cain and his seed.

ATAR_i said...

Really? One of the men who created the bigfoot hoax lives in Yakima, WA. His name is Bob Heironimus.

My Lord, he doesn't believe a man landed on the moon - which actually did happen (what was his beef with that anyway?), but he believes in a Hoax Bigfoot, who is supposedly a man who can't die and was cursed with black skin from the Garden of Eden.

Lord have mercy.

Anonymous said...

Straight Shot says,
Lord have mercy is right - but the teaching that man didn't land on the moon exists in some Fundamentalist Sects besides the FLDS. The reasoning behind it is that God would not allow man to tamper with any of his creations outside of this earth.

So that man bragging that they had figured out how to get out of this earth's atmosphere and into space is supposed to be blasphemous and a trick of evil gentiles.

It is equated with God getting mad at the people for building the Tower of Babel and him "confounding" thier languages and them wandering off to all parts of the earth.

The most amazing gaul I guess is that there are supposed to be thousands of god's in training with the Polygamous connection in fundamental Mormonism.

That beats man getting to the moon all to hell in audacity but who's keeping track?

God save us all.

ATAR_i said...

Interesting I had no idea that was why that was taught. And I agree - becoming a god takes a heck of a lot more moxy than believing than man building a rocket that can make it to the moon.

Anonymous said...

The belief in the garden of eden being in missouri isn't so far off if you understand that missouri was supposed to be Zion. "The destructions shall sweep the earth, and in Zion, in missouri there shall not be one living being standing.."
Many of warren's teachings go on to explain that nothing, not even animals will survive the destructions that are going to be brought on missouri.

Anonymous said...

At Alta Academy, Warren told us that men have never been on the moon. He told us that the Lord would never allow man on the moon. He said that the Lord allowed them to land on a little no name planet in space but he would never allow them to land on the moon.

Anonymous said...

Third rock from the Sun, maybe?

Anonymous said...

More interesting is that Rulon had a role in space travel little talked about. Rumors a few years ago questioned whether this same theology might of impacted the failure of the mentioned o-ring below. Its hard to fathom it was anything but an accident, but some of those ousted said that Rulon later preached the spacecraft explosion as god punishing the gentiles and yet it was a company associated with him that made the failed orings???

Quoted From;
Salt Lake Tribune/June 28, 1998
By Tom Zoellner

The faithful made out tithing checks to Jeffs personally, never to the church, Jeffs acknowledged in a 1989 deposition. He said he deposited tithing and other contributions to the Rulon T. Jeffs Trust Account, a checking account in existence since 1969, which he alone controlled.

Unlikely newsmaker: Though Jeffs has a passion for privacy, his name surfaced in a few news reports after the Jan. 15, 1986, Challenger space-shuttle explosion that killed seven astronauts.

Jeffs was on the board of directors for Hydrapak. The West Jordan firm manufactured the O-ring, which allowed a plume of fiery gas to escape, igniting the shuttle's liquid-fuel tank.

Eight months after the explosion, his name was dropped from incorporation papers. Jeffs' son Wallace, who bought Hydrapak in September 1986, insisted in a telephone interview that he never knew of his father's involvement with the firm.

Lloyd L. Wall, who is Hydrapak's former president, treasurer and director at the time of the Challenger explosion, lives in one of Rulon Jeffs' five Salt Lake County homes, this one described on tax rolls as situated on a half-acre wooded lot, valued at $287,000.

Lloyd Wall, another name MIB has mentioned as Terresa's dad? It seems that some of the pieces are coming together....


Stinger said...

Don't you think the warrenites already have enough issues with out trying to pin conspiracy theories on them?

Seeker of Facts said...

Warren Jeffs and his people's belief that the Garden of Eden is in Jackson Count Missouri is based on the teachings of Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith interpreted the Bible where it says that 'God placed Adam in the center of the earth' so he placed it in what he thought was the center of the North American Contenent. If you study the histories of some of the different cultures of the world, along with the books of Genesis and Revelation you will find that this place has been covered by sea.

Adam was placed in the center of the land or earth that had been underneath an inland lake or sea. The dry land that came out from underneath this water was called "Earth," which means naked dirt" not grass lands or forerst lands. In the center of this lake bottom land he placed the firmament (firm mountain or mountain of hard rock)and he placed two great lights (two volcanos) that created the mountain or hard rock. And God through the crater (God acting through the crater of the Volcano)created the heavens (craters heaving up)and the earth (ash and dirt from the volano). This was done in seven days (seven periods of light). This firmament has seven layers (or seals) of distinct lava flows. The Firmament divide the waters above of the East from the water below which are to the West. The two great lights in the frimament where later called the sun and the moon. They are not to be confused with what we call the sun and moon today.

The land of Desolation was a land that was barren of growth and life where Adam ended up after he was driven out of the Garden of Eden. Eden means "Red Earth". The Charubims ( bearers of light)that drove him out of the Garden of Eden are what we call flaming volcanos. The Garden of Eden and the land of desolution next to it is right where the Aztecs and other uncorrupted histories from around the world place it.

The four rivers that run out of the Red Lands of Zion National Park are the four historical rivers of Eden. The Red Lands of Eden covers the Red Lands of Northern Arizona and Southern Utah. The "Land of Desolution" is in Iron County of what is rescently known as the southeast cornor of Lake Boniville. The Aztecs called it the "Waters of Aztalan". The Ancients called it the "Atlantian Sea". The Hebrews called it the "Land of Benjamin", which transulates in English to "
the land of the Right Hand of God"

In the northwest part of Zion National Park is what is called, "The Kolob Fingers", which is in the form of a big red hand with the sholders of this geogolical part of the mountain shrugging or tipping backwards. This is the historical place where Atlas (the Right Hand)shrugged and the land or their world fell around 2000 feet.

Therefore Warren Jeffs, the blind leading the blind took his people from the area of the heavenly paradise, the true Garden of Eden, the area of Biblical promise by claiming that he was going to take the righteous to heaven when he did not have the foggest idea as to where this heaven is. If he had any ability or vision to lead his people he would have stood for moral standards and not add adultration to adulteration and would not have played the part of Satan or the Dragon in casting or dragging his people out of the heavenly land with a promise that he was going to take the righteout to heaven. He is a pied Piper creating hell for himself and others. Maybe they deserve it. He sure does not have a clue concerning the promised Biblical Heaven whereabouts. In Revelations it states that the "Dragon would cast down 1/3 of the stars (leading men of his group)from heaven. Has Warren Jeffs not done this?

onthestreet said...

Keep seeking, Seeker, and if you do it in faith, then you shall find. But in calling the third member of the godhead a liar, ye have no faith. Nor are any of your theories facts.

Eden was indeed a paradise in the state of Missioui, as the Lord revealed to Joseph. So you also call your Lord a liar. But since the Fall, paradise is taken up. Thus Jesus said to the thief:
"This day, thou shalt be with me in Paradise." So is this a satellite, a planet, or a star. What is paradise? Well, it begins in the heart, which is one. When you analyze the word in faith, and are one, then you may find. It is hardly in a Southern Utah desert where oneness is Paradise Lost. What is "red" earth? Same root of reed and ream, which is 500.

You lack the oracle and the tools and the spirit to find anything out. But keep seeking.

fttc said...


I thought you were street until he posted after yours. That was pretty wild!

ATAR_i said...

For those, who like I, had never heard another location for the garden of Eden I submit this. There have been many scholars and anthropologists looking for it. None, that I know of (outside the LDS sects) have considered anything in the US based on ancient texts.

The Garden described in the Bible places the headwaters of four rivers in it: the Tigris, the Euphrates, the Gihon, and the Pishon. Obviously, the Tigris and Euphrates are well-known rivers, but the other two have been real problems in the past. Rohl has identified them as the Araxes and Uizhun which puts the headwaters of all four rivers in his Eden. Interestingly, the Uizhun, Rohl's equivalent to the Pishon which the Bibles identifies with gold, is known locally as the Golden River, and meanders between ancient gold mines and lodes of lapis lazuli.

Making his case even stronger, Rohl says that he has found the "Land of Nod" which the Bible describes as "East of Eden." Nod was Cain's place of exile after the murder of his brother Abel. Today the area is called "Noqdi."


Another Source

Question: “What is the location of the Garden of Eden?”

Answer: The only thing the Bible tells us concerning the Garden of Eden’s location is found in Genesis 2:10-14, “A river watering the garden flowed from Eden; from there it was separated into four headwaters. The name of the first is the Pishon; it winds through the entire land of Havilah, where there is gold…The name of the second river is the Gihon; it winds through the entire land of Cush. The name of the third river is the Tigris; it runs along the east side of Asshur. And the fourth river is the Euphrates.” The exact identities of the Pishon and Havilah rivers is unknown, but the Tigris and Euphrates rivers are well known. If the Tigris and Euphrates mentioned there are the same rivers by those names today, that would put the Garden of Eden somewhere in the middle east, likely in Iraq. People have searched for the Garden of Eden for centuries to no avail. There are various locations that people claim to be the original location of the Garden of Eden, but we cannot be sure. What happened to the Garden of Eden? The Bible does not specifically say. It is likely that the Garden of Eden was completely destroyed in the Flood.

ATAR_i said...

I find that O ring information very intersting. Why was an accountant on this board, and what business did the treasurer have living in one of his homes. Is it a Utah based company - and this is coincidence.

Honestly - I'm actually suprised that the FLDS prophet was on this board - take out all the other coincidences - why? Anyone have any ideas?

fttc said...


Because the owners and managers Hydrapak were FLDS (I only use this name in reference, actually the FLDS did not exist at that time as a legal entity) there was a beleif that having one of the Apostles on the board of their company somehow made it a superior company. These men foisted the title on Rulon Jeffs, he did not seek it. I personally heard Rulon Jeffs say he "did not know what was going on he was only the Presidente".
As far as the conspiracy of the o-rings goes, if you can somehow pull up information on the investigation of the shuttle failure you will find Hydrapak was found to not have any liability in it. They were a subcontractor for Thiokol who built the boosters. It was a design flaw in the seals that caused them to fail. Hydrapak built them to specs that were provided them.

Anonymous said...

Getting back to the original topic... are there any other "urban legends" or faith building stories that exist in FLDS life? Heard one where the wife if some "uncle ____" saw a light under the door and heard he talking all night, so it must of been an angel. Anyone know other stories?

Anonymous said...

Back in those days, Rulon Jeffs was a very successful CPA with a degree in business managment, if I am not mistaken. His son, Leroy, took over the business when Rulon retired. That would explain his being part of that business. The investigation was very extensive by NASA and also other agencies, and Hydropac was cleared completely of any wrong-doing.

They had informed NASA that the o-rings were not cleared to function at the cooler temperatures, and not to launch the rocket unless the temperature was above a certain point. NASA knew this, and went ahead with the launch, and so it was actually NASA's fault that there was a tragedy. This information is public record.

Anonymous said...


As fttc says, Hydrapak did not have any liablility in the shuttle disaster. They are/were a company in Northern Utah that manufactured seals, and the Thiokol division that manufactured the booster rockets is also in Northern Utah.

At least one of Rulon's sons was a part-owner of Hydrapak. There was no conspiracy.

But this does give you some insight as to the resourcefullness of these (my) people. They didn't just fall off the turnip wagon, there are several very bright people in the group. Many of those that don't have formal training or education are still successful just because they are willing and capable of working so da_n hard, which is a common thread for all of them.

Long Time gone

ATAR_i said...

Thanks - we can just chalk it up to one of those really interesting coincidences. I appreciate the replies - it did sound like the making of a good scandal.

Appreciate those who had the info, taking the time to let me know.

onthestreet said...

Yet, even after getting the facts, like a kitten with a roll of yarn, Tarry being a scandal monger and scandal prone at times will twist things into so many knots that even a shuttle explosion could not unravel them. Ride Tarry Ride.

Anonymous said...

Maybe its just me, but I really like it when you don't post.


onthestreet said...

Ohh, it's just you. Accurately stated. However, Atar is not all that ignorant. I often see alot of intelligence in some of her posts.
You all try to stay happy, now. Don't let any bluntness of a debate throw you. You want to stay off your ass and on your feet.

Anonymous said...


I wish there was some intelligence in your posts, maybe I could stomach them.

Bluntness of debate? The tact you've always taken is to throw a ton of s__t against the wall hoping for a morsel to stick. I'll call it a street debate grenade...they are harmless and make no sense.

They do keep a dead thread going though.


Anonymous said...

streets making passes at atar again!

ATAR_i said...

LOL - you guys are so funny. I love the 'streed debate grenade'. He sounded a bit more like himself on this thread, but read the 'fathers love' thread above - I think someone else is sitting in his chair.

onthestreet said...

LTG: See, I am harmless, and add life to it all. And now, I'm humbled by your compliment. It tends to mellow a gal a little.

ATAR_i said...

OTS a gal? yeah right

Stinger said...

Here is something for everyone still wondering if man did land on the moon.

Anonymous said...

Atari,Rulon owned part of the Hydro-pak business,Rulon wasnt nearly so crazy and mentally unstable as Warren.

onthestreet said...

Warren is a chip off the ole block, and just as stable. Now go to the stable, and quit your babel.

ATAR_i said...

: ( Stinger don't tell me you actually believe that - I'll be so disappointed.

Anonymous said...

Stinger, that was a great site. Once you get past the poor writing that makes one wonder if it is supporting or disproving the hoax. I loved the spoofy news article for fun.

ATAR_i said...

OK - I was wrong - it's a good site - I coudln't go past the front page - which looked like a ton of reasons to believe why man didn't land on the moon.

My bad Stinger -

onthestreet said...

Ahh yes, a very nice deception.

Stinger said...

Atar, for the record, I do believe that man has been on the moon. I had heard all the conspiracy theories about it before so I did some research. And before you ask, I didn't hear the cospiracy theories in school. I used to listen to a radio program called Coast to Coast with Art Bell. He talked about all kinds of things like that.

ATAR_i said...

: ) Thanks Stingy

onthestreet said...

Man's science is always flawed.
Man's mind always in a wad.
Man's words are always suspect.
Man's works to never respect.

Anonymous said...

gosh ots how long did it take you to think that one up?

Anonymous said...

Hey, Wedneday,July 20 is the 36th anniversary of the 1969 lunar landing when U.S. astronauts Neal Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin became the first humans to land and walk on the moon.

Thank Nasa for the computers, microwave oven and Tang the orange drink.

I guess Warren doesn't believe in computers or microwaves? I guess he speaks to his faithful by pony express or smoke sigals.

Stinger said...

You Yanks and your Nasa. Just remember, Canadians invented the zipper:)

"Man reached out and touched the tranquil moon. May that high accomplishment allow man to rediscover the earth and there find peace."
Pierre Trudeau

rumor-has-it said...

"I guess he speaks to his faithful by pony express or smoke sigals. "

Actually they are so secretive that they will not even use land lines. They have satelite phones with a modified chip so that no one can listen in.

onthestreet said...

Or else they just walk by revelation.

ATAR_i said...

Call it what you want - they are hiding.

onthestreet said...

Much revelation is hidden, and God hides his face from the wicked. So why should they do anything different than God himself!

ATAR_i said...

How can it be Revelation if it's hidden?

The God of the Bible isn't the God you describe. I don't think we will agree on this OTS. I don't believe JS wrote the inspired word of God, I don't believe he was a prophet of any kind. I don't believe you get a planet, or that you can become like Jesus. I believe that Jesus was the son of God, and that he put his seed inside her (meaning - no sex).

Kathleen and ole Pal Warren said...

It a hidden revelation from a hidden prophetAtari,Oh Wait its just more OnTnestreet.s mindless crap.

onthestreet said...

Right, Tarry. He PUT it there in a most immaculate way, and teaches all of us to "Be Clean that bear the vessels or children of God." See, his own words commanding us to be Immaculate. Also: "Be ye perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

As for other revelation, you and all know that there are many things that are secret, unknown. Ask any scientist. Yes they are revealed to some, and known. Thus, hidden revelation. Is that too difficult for you, sweety.

Now, as far as you "not believing" this, and "not believing" that, that is true. You confess to being an unbeliever, the very thing that your Lord calls "Cursed".

However, if you WANT to believe him and his REVEALED word through the ages, and not just limit his revelations to one small Jewish culture, you may have that privilege upon your knees, if you have any such inclination.

Finally, you do impress me in BELIEVING that there is such a thing as conception without the gross element. Sometimes you do very well.

ATAR_i said...

Revelation is the uncovering of the things that were hidden. Remember we're talking about Revelation NOT mystery.

You got a FALSE prophet - and you guys need to deal with it. He has born bad fruit - and that's how you can sniff him out (my paraphrased non King James).

KJV Matthew 7:15-16 "Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?"

I believe someone needs to be cast into the fire (we can just pretend jail is the fire for now).

onthestreet said...

Well I'm of his fruits. Now am I that bad? Of course not.

Yes, revelation from God is to uncover, yet he hides things holy from the world and the froward, and leaves them to languish in darkness because they love to have it so. Then too, even the wicked come to new realizations continually, and that is revelation from God.

By the way, a man being in jail is not the mark of badness. Even Jesus Christ was in jail, as were many of his prophets. See how off you can be? Like falling off atar roof.

ATAR_i said...

Being in jail for molestation is different than being in jail for preaching the word.

But I'm sure you'll find some way to twist something spiritual out of warrens twisted sexual desires.

onthestreet said...

Atar has molested several children. There, now charges have been made against Atar, so it's the truth.

As far as a prophet marrying two people, marriage is not unholy nor molestation. SEE THE FARSITY AND FOLLY OF YOUR REASONING?

ATAR_i said...

You keep making allegations of molestations - but you don't even know who I am, or where I live, nor has any child come to you with details about any transgressions.

You simply decide to make a statement - if that was how easy it was to make a warrent for my arrest - why is there none?

Why? Because it's not that easy. The complaints against warren were looked at and decided to have merit.

Making allegations against me is the action of an angry, immature, depraved, hateful, loathsome, rancorous, villainous and corrupt mind.

There is nothing good, moral, righteous and virtuous in your manner. Devoid of all that is good.

Equating Jesus with warren will probably earn you a special spot in hades - better be careful.

THIS was Jesus attitude

Philipians 2:5-7

5. Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:

6. Who, being in very nature[a] God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

7. but made himself nothing, taking the very nature[b] of a servant, being made in human likeness.

onthestreet said...

Atar: My point exactly! See, we agree. Simply because Warren or yourself was "charged" doesn't make the charge a fact. See?

While I'm able to communicate somewhat, still it is NOT any greatness in myself. I've held continually that I AM NOTHING. Why would I say that? Because it is true.

Now, as for the Prophet: Yes, I will again equate him with Christ.

onthestreet said...

Do you not all consider Warren Jeffs the least among you? Did he not say himself (your Redeemer):
"What ye do unto the least of these, ye dod unto me"? See, the two are the same, saith the Lord himself.

Any man who is as strict as Jesus Christ in casting out all that offend in his law of sacrifice, in tithing and a full and acceptable sacrifice, in a purification and unification offering, equates with Jesus Christ.

ATAR_i said...

No, we don't agree. Warrens nephew, who knew who he was, and where he lived, made specific allegations of sexual contact that he was forced to participate in. He named the dates, the places, the people and the circumstances. His testimony seemed credible, and worth investigating.

You, make accusations at me - you assume I am female - but you don't actually know for sure. You don't know how old I am, or even where I live. No one has spoken to you of any bad behavior on my part, you just state I have done something wrong - and assert that it is the same as the allegations made against warren, which it is not.

We do not agree.

onthestreet said...

Would you like me to insert here your exact address, phone number, and some names?

Yes, you are female. You have four kids, you work part time, you live on a "gentlemans ranch".

Your interests are technology, healthcare, ethics, photography, writing, reading, outdoors, junking (garage sales bargain hunting) painting being with family and friends.
Your Favorite Movies are musicals comedy's, movies that make you cry, and movies that help you learn. Your favorite music is
rock pop, alternative country, classical Opera - anything but Rap and freaky rock. Your favorite authors are M.M. Kaye, Faye Kellerman, Johnathan Kellerman, Diana Gabaldon, and Dan Brown.

There's alot more than just your profile. There's an entire dossier file. Who shall we share it with? I will spare you that, sister.

ATAR_i said...

Yes, please insert my real name AND my address.

You could write down any address - that won't make it correct.

All of that information is in my profile - that is the information on the web I chose to share.

and I dare you - SHOW ME THE DOSSIER?

onthestreet said...

Do you want every disgusting, filthy, little detail, and the photos? Proof of address is easy. Do you also want the proof of crimes committed.

ATAR_i said...

You have none - you have no idea who I am, where I live, or even my address - you don't even know which state I'm in.

Your pathetic attempts at bravado just prove what a pathetic man you really are.

onthestreet said...

Let's see, shall we say: PENN?

ATAR_i said...

No cigar - ROTFLMAO - you have no clue!

onthestreet said...

Ahh, but firstly I don't shmoke your filthy cigars, and secondly I hit the nail on the head. When one such as you are in such a mental state of confusion, I'd call that a "Penn", as in cage or prison of your own making. That's the very state you are in, the state of confusion.

What is more to the point, and more important, the physical state or the mental and moral state?

Yes, I know right where you are.

ATAR_i said...

Yeah - buddy nice little CYA maneuver - sorry, not happening here buddy.

Tiny little putz

onthestreet said...


ATAR_i said...

CYA means 'Cover Your A**'

Meaning since you have NO idea - you make up junk and it just aint working. Where's the dossier? You can't even get the state/country much less the name - for a dossier.

Those kinds of threats are just pathetic attempts of a little man who is powerless. But your such a shmeggegie, I'll stop here.

Anonymous said...

Seeker Of Facts replies to Atar_i:

I appreciated your comments but here is some food for thought. You might want to consider that the only river in Iraq or Iran that carries the Bibical name of any of the four rivers tht run out of Eden is the Euphrates. According to the clay tablets of Iraq, Euphrates menas, 'cold river' and just because there is a river called the 'cold river' in Iraq does not mean that it is the same cold river coming out of Eden. The fourth river comming out of the real Eden of history is colder than its three counter parts and that is not a coincidence. The first river comming out of Eden crossed the land of Havala. Hava is Hebrew for Eve. The Indians that still live in the outskirts of that land are called the Havasupa Indians. I have handled the good gold and the onyx stones from that land just as the Bible states. Rohi, who thinks that he has identified Eden in northern Iraq, has done better research than most and needs to be applauded for thinking. But if he will look a little closer at his research and cross examine history a little better he will be able to spring himself from the trench or path that Constantine during the Dark Ages put most people on and will be able to see a thousand times more evidence and a lot broader picture in the histories from around the world. The Dead Sea Scrolls state, that when Abraham crossed the Tarish Range from the Euphrates, he passed by the four rivers of Eden, the Red Sea, Mount Zion and entered the land of Canaan in three days. This geological lay out only fits the ral place of Eden, which is where the four rivers run out of Zion National Park. The Tarish Range of mountains was still called the mountains of the 'TA' by the local Indians, which makes up part of Utah. The Reed or Red Sea is what the Hopi still call it. It is the same place of the reed where the Israelites went through and went on the back of the eagle or back the back of Mount Zion.

The reed attached to the peace pipe represented the Reed or Red Sea. The pipe bowl represented Mount Sinai where Moses set up boundaries for the Israelites, least the fire brake out and kill them. This is also where Moses gave the Ten Commandments, which are the laws that will bring about peace. The Hopi and other Indian's histories identify this as the Red Sea. At the end of the Red Sea area is a volcano called Fire Pit Knoll. The Indians call it Sinawava, which means Sinai.

I have only begun to scratch the surface. You might want to look at some of the original Christian records before Constantine's time, such as the book that the apostiles quoted most from, which is the 'Book Of Enoch'. It describes the geology of this area from the Grand Canyon to the Great Salt Lake to a tee. You might want to read the 'Forgotten Books of Eden,' the 'Book of The Cave of Treasure', or 'The Book of the Bee' and the book of 'The Mystries of heaven and Earth.' I have just covered a little bit of Christian sources of recorded history without even touching the Native America Indian histories, from the Iroquois to the Aztecs, nor the histories in the Adamic language, Hebrew, Celtic, Greek or Old Latin languages.

There are many histories written on the walls and cliffs across the Southwest of North America, one of which is the Tree of Life stone, or what is known as the Chiapas Stone in southern Mexico. This is a drawing or a map of the Virgin River running out of and around the Kolob Terraces with the Tree Of Life drawn in the center of the area. It is a real picture of geology drawn or carved in stone of the Garden of Eden and its characteristics fits one place on this planet only and that is the Zion National Park area of Southern Utah.

When the world stops looking through the eyes of the Dark Ages and the concepts established by Constantine as well as all the copycat name places where the Dark Age Christians named places after Biblical places, they will quit operating from a flat world mentality. The places identified in Constantine's day and given Biblical names were more guess work than serious, honest, for the sake of truth study. But who is really interested in the real facts of history? If they really were, they would loose their social standing in all the social clubs that espouse more the doctrines of Rome than the beliefs of the original Christians.

To believe in the concept of the Garden of Eden being in the area of Babylon because of the name Euphrates, makes you apart of modern Babylon. Old records record the fact that Adam looked down from the mountain and could see the heads of ALL four rivers. For the Mormon people to still support Jackson County Missouri as being the Garden of Eden is farther off the wall, according to all historical accounts than putting it in Babylon!

Seeker of Facts

onthestreet said...

The rivers are allegory.

ATAR_i said...

It actually talked about the "Tigris (Hiddekel) and Euphrates river" and those are both known to exist in the middle east.

The BOM is quoted as being - by a Mormon Archeologist "largely a work of fiction".

The only reason, that anyone believed that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri was because of this book. It's archeological claims have been rebutted - unklike those of the Bible.

Smith also forged and interpreted the book of Abraham (which we don't hear about because it was such a blatent forgery).

So - two of the four Rivers are still in existence in the middle east. The other two people have speculated upon - just as you speculate about FOUR rivers.

A fossil river has been found in Northern Arabia that the Saudis and Kuwatis have know as the Wadi Riniah and the Wadi Batin. The Bible says the region was rich in Bdellium, an aromatic gum resin that can still be found in North Arabia, and gold, which was mined in that general area in the 1950's.

Some say the physical Eden had vanished under the waters of the Gulf. Around 5000 to 4000 BC some sort of worldwide phenomenon called the Flandrian Transgression, which caused a suden rise in sea level. The Gulf began to fill with water and actually reached it's modern-day level about 4000 BC having swallowed Eden and all the settlements along the coastline of the Gulf. But it didn't stop there. It kept right on rising, moving upward into the southern legions of today's Iraq and Iran.

The Sumerians always claimed that their ancestors came 'out of the sea' and it is believed the literally did. They retreated northward into Mesopotamia from the encroaching waters of the Gulf, where they had lived for thousands of years.

Anonymous said...


If the rivers are allegory so are you. As well as some ignorant individule in Africa could say New York and Mascow are allegorical places.

Your statement may have place in the minds of ignorant people or those that do not understand the facts.

Seeker of Facts

onthestreet said...

Atar: This is pretty interesting:
"Some say the physical Eden had vanished under the waters of the Gulf. Around 5000 to 4000 BC some sort of worldwide phenomenon called the Flandrian Transgression,

That transgression was the fall of Adam, and Enoch later would have take up paradise with his city. The Sumarians out of the sea, however, were the descendants of Noah after the flood or "sea". Noah is Gabriel, yesod, sea. The seed of all creation continued with him.

As for the location of Eden, the results of the Fall of Adam were eternal misery for all mankind, except for a Redeemer. Thus the name of the place: Missouri.

As for the four rivers, I can tell you plenty, but few here would wish me to do so. So I refrain.

All concepts are interpreted in seven planes. Allegory is one of them.

Anonymous said...

Seekeroffacts said

Most Biblical names in the Middle East are not the original places that the Bible talks about. The Arcadiens before, who colnonized the Babylonian area before the Babylonians named a few places there after the other side of wthe world here they came from. Later Constentine had the power to decieve the most of world. By falsely identifing Biblical places through out the Middle East along with his mother's help. Their assumptions tied in with no more facts than onthestreets. During the time of the Crusaders and the Dark Ages. A lot off places were falsely identified and
given Biblical names. They have done this in part by thinking that the world was flat or that what they had in their area was their whole world so they tried to make it fit with what they knew. Mohamadd followed Constantien's false base. He added delusions to delusions with great visions of grendur, which seems to be the path of most fundamental Mormons. His Mecca is where Abraham was supposed to have seen the stairway to Heaven. It fits geological history of that account like the Grand Canyon fits the geological description of the Nile River.

As far as the Book of Mormon being mostly fiction. You might want to look into the source it stemed from. Joseph Smith said 'that the Book of Mormon was more accurace than the Bible. How culd this be so when most of the Book Of Mormen were taken from the Bible. Most of the stories were taken from a Bible and covered with a mask so they would not be fully recognized. The reason for doing this was to not create a stumbling block for those who believed in the desception by misguided men of the past' The Book Of Mormon was more accurate in a sence that it put the promied land and most of the Bible storiesback in the original place in America. However alicorical they were or desguised or put them back in the part of the world where they took place.

Lehi in the Book of Mormon who was married to Sarah, which was in real history was Abraham. The stories of Nephi stands for the for the neophites, israelites from Jacob to Moses who created ships of state (governments of their people) and took their people across a sea of people to thep romise land. Just a start for those who are interested in searching history a litte deeper.

Seeker of Facts

onthestreet said...

Well, now get some facts straight.

ATAR_i said...

OH my gosh, how do you even counter the kind of misinformation and word scrambling you have learned. I'm not even going to bother. It's like arguing with street - it just don't fly.

Anonymous said...

He He, Welcome to the reality of Ross Lebaron's alternate universe. Enjoy your visit.

Anonymous said...

I am so confused. As a protestant (aka "outsider") I am honestly exploring the Mormon faith, having recently become friends with a faithful Mormon. You guys have lost me.

Anonymous said...

Mission Accomplished OTC, take a bow.

Anonymous said...

OTC sounds like an a__hole with way too much time on his hands to me.

ATAR_i said...

anon 12:10 - in order to make the Garden of Eden in Missouri - a little word tangling and mumbo jumbo has to be used.

They also believe that Cain (as in Cain and Abel) and that he wanders around the earth a tall hairy black man.

It's just a little bit out there to me. And having acquaintences who are mormon myself, I keep wondering 'what the heck'.

I think the biggest difference for me - was that they don't believe Jesus was the son of God - he was a prophet - just like the prophet they have now in Salt Lake City.

I mean throughout the Bible Jesus is referred to as the son of God. In order to twist it around so that isn't so - also takes a bit of wordsmithing. I don't even WANT to hear how they swing that one.

You can email me, I have some other interesting information I've found. More on straight mormonism than FLDS.

onthestreet said...

Well put, Tarry.
Street called straight.

onthestreet said...

That is to say, in response to this: "You can email me, I have some other interesting information I've found. More on straight mormonism than FLDS."

Of course: Straight or fundamental Mormonism, the street called straight.

ATAR_i said...

Whatever, it makes no sense.

onthestreet said...

It cannot make sense to you, being senseless. I believe you believe what you say when you say things don't make sense to you, not having tuned the lyre.

"Now carefully tune the lyre. If you are tuning it for the very first time, and you are using "steel" strings, you will need to tune your instrument down about one full step from the tunings recommended.

The reason for this is that the gentle "wood" needs to adjust to the unfamiliar pressure of its new life. With your strings you must be patient: the strings will not keep in tune for long when they are new. Once the strings stretch in, they will keep in tune. Until then, expect the lyre to go out of tune rapidly. This is string-theory or life-force.

Watch the bridge as you tune the lyre for the first time; it may try to pull forward or back a bit as you tune. Just gently straighten it out with your five fingers. These represent the five chambers of the central path of the Holy Spirit.

There is everything to gain in learning this.

onthestreet said...

Truth Reflects Upon The Senses.

onthestreet said...

And what is the lie to the liar? Can you name the lie, unequivocably?