Monday, May 02, 2005

Underage Behind the Walls

Is there any way to find out if any of the women who are behind the wall who want to come out? I'm just trying to figure out how someone could communicate with the girls, especially the young wives (less than 18). Does anyone know of anyone who is behind the wall who has stated they do not want to be there?

51 comments:

ATAR_i said...

Does anyone ever come out - grocery shopping, doctors - anything?

ATAR_i said...

What is the physical address of the property? Anyone know?

ThePilot said...

Just a FYI:

Dr. Phil is doing a show today on brainwashed brides.

http://www.drphil.com/show/show.jhtml?contentId=3109_brainwashedbrides.xml

ATAR_i said...

I saw the promo today while I was at work - I'm getting home in time to watch it.

ATAR_i said...

I'm glad they do come in to town. I doubt evidence of an underage girls matrimony would present itself on a silver platter, and would assume that everything put on display in public is, for the most part, appropriate - perhaps not societal norm - but nothing criminal.

I think we're WAY BEYOND speculating that young girls are pressured to get married and are given to a man not of their choosing - that's just the way it is. Wether an outsider will have any knowledge that it's happening is doubtful - unless there is a mole.

But, at this point I would be happy if Warren would answer to the allegations already in the courts leveled against him by his own nephew. THAT is something that can be dealt with, then we can begin to see if he's committed statutory rape of girls as well. Isn't his taste for young ones relevant (male or female).

So - what's happening with his nephews case - Has Warren been served?

ThePilot said...

Hey, check this out:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4629743

ATAR_i said...

SGT Friday:

Are you actually in law enforcement in one of the areas (CC or Eldorado)? If so....

What is the status with bringing Warren out to answer the allegations leveled at him by his nephew?

What about birth certificates that list underage girls giving birth to babies and paternity is Warren Jeffs (or any other man who isn't underage)? With official record filed with the state, do you need a sworn statement?

If you are a polygamist (not necessarily FLDS), I'm thinking your not. I would like to know (either way) - as it affects how I view the answers that you give me. Would you state whether you are/are not a polygamist - for the record.

ATAR_i said...

ex-plig

Is that really you - or do you just have a delicious sense of humor?

ATAR_i said...

Pilot

Did you take that photo?

ATAR_i said...

Who are the people in t his Photo?

ThePilot said...

To ATAR_i:

You may not believe this, but I have never taken a photo of the compound. Most of the photos that have been published have come from our airplane, including the one that Jon took of the prophet Jan 1, 2005, but not by me. I am too busy flying the aircraft with flaps down at near stalling speed to worry about a camera. I fly with absolute experts in digital photography. I do what I am trained to do; the photographers do what they are trained to do.

ATAR_i said...

Sarg:

Thanks for clarifying the nephew molestation question - I assumed the latter situation (felony warrant) - and not the former.

Boy - law enforcement has their hands full - it seems so simple - but sounds like the particulars might be difficult to work out. I guess the Warrenites learned a few tricks over the last decades.

Sounds like a chess game - I hope the locals can get a few moves ahead.

ATAR_i said...

I agree but with reservations - related to the children, and more.

While Warren has clearly taken his polygamist group in an unhealthy direction - there are several things that need to be addressed and CANNOT be overlooked.

1. Young girls married before the age of consent
2. Polygamy is illegal
3. Fathers not taking financial responsibility for their celestial wives and offspring.
4. Education of young girls and boys.
5. Abuse in the home

I am NOT saying that these issues do not exist in society in general - each of them do. However the prevalence of the offense remains unchecked and out of balance for the number in the group.

While most of his community would probaby rejoice if he were ousted - those issues above, and probably more, still need to be addressed internally and externally.

Some of the above clearly fall in the pervue of nation/state/county law and ordinances, but others will need to be addressed internally (and so it will be necessary for someone in FLDS leadership to discourage some of the negative behaviors).

If I visit Colorado City - it would be nice if local law enforcement and plain citizens didn't try to intimidate me. I wouldn't expect to trample on private property - but also don't want it to look like a scene from 'Duel' (remember that old movie with the mac truck following that old sedan and intimidating him).

If a young girl wants to leave - why does she have to be intimidated into staying, and told she can never come back - why must she be shunned? Has this custom only been since Warren - or brewing much longer?

Would a young man and young woman who like each other be allowed to decide for themselves if they like each other - and if they will marry and if they will participate in multiple partners?

Should a child be forced to marry, forced to have sex, forced to have as many children as possible, and forced to live in polygamy? YOU CAN'T CALL IT RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IF THERE IS NO CHOICE

I'm stepping off my soapbox now.

ATAR_i said...

Antique (you know I love antiques)

Great reply - lots of good information - it makes me feel as if there is hope for the kids in your community - knowing you feel the way you do (I'm assuming you are FLDS).

I had a few follow up questions regarding some of your statements.

I wasn't sure what you meant about accusing your husband of adultry if he touches you in a wrong place (I didn't know there were any?) Can you explain that further. Also - why couldn't a woman do that to the Steeds, Allreds, Jessops?

As far as the 'Duel comment' I was assuming that the roads leading through town are not owned by UEP, and that the public buildings that are there, are in fact - open to the public. I do understand that they purchased all the private land. But does the UEP own the police station and the roads as well (that would suprise me).

Curiousity compels me to ask - antique - how did you come by choosing your name?

ThePilot said...

To Antique Mormon:

I am sure that you have been approached by many of your constituents about taking over compound. Would you take over the compound given the opportunity? Could you do it? You seem to be a sane person in the midst of insanity.

PS: Nothing new to report. The women in beautiful dresses are working in the garden. The men are working on the Temple. The “New Zion” is truly a beautiful place and a tribute to the FLDS.

ATAR_i said...

Antique - I agree with pilot, a sane voice. Are there many such as yourself who feel the same? Have you been excommunicated?

Anonymous said...

I'm so glad to be able to use this service once again. Thank you. Concerning the remarks by Atar-1 05 05 05 Should a child be forced to marry etc? Absolutely not! It is not freedom of any kind if that is happening. Just by being Canadian makes me one of the most fortunate people on earth, for I have a right to choose the road I wish to travel and that is an honor not everyone from every nation realizes as completely as we do. And although I agree that no one should be forced into marriage, I also believe that people who desire to move on with their lives shouldn't have to wait until they are 20+ just to impress someone else. We have the right and freedom to cherish and live life to it's fullest! Thank you.

Anonymous said...

Wow Antique Mormon,

Very interesting and insightful post. Now I kind of understand....they are a bunch of robots. No initmacy at all, very sad, families can not be held together that way. No one to talk to, no one to hold you when you need it and well no husband and wife intimacy. How can they stand it?????

ATAR_i said...

(ignoring demented post from onthestreet)

Antique

You have done such a good job explaining how things slowly got to the place that they are now. I have found you and Stinger invaluable in your ability to express that FLDS was not intended to be what Warrens cult offshoot has become.

As I told Stinger - there are many things that theologically we would disagree on but I don't doubt that historically the FLDS gave general consideration to friends, local government and strangers, wether or not they were members of FLDS.

While polygamy in inconceivable to me, I can see that even in this situation - there can be a loving way to practice it - a harsh one, and apparently now a tragic way of practicing it.

Can you conceive of something that would deliver these Warrenites to a safety - emotionally and physically.

Anonymous said...

Atar_i,

Sorry to get off topic for a moment, but are we using the same child psychology for onthestreet that I use on my children sometimes? You know, ignoring negative behavior and rewarding positive behavior (if it ever surfaces)?

haha - it looked familiar!!

Anonymous said...

Antique, please help me. You are verbalizing everything I have felt. Have you openly declared yourself? Have you lost your family and been kicked out of the community? I need to find you and compare notes. I can't tell you who I am on this forum, because my family is still in danger. But I would love to speak with a logical mind. Any ideas?

Anonymous said...

Friend female, maybe you could get a link through the administrator, to get ahold of Antique. I believe I know who he is. He is very much a people person and I'm sure he would help in any way he could.

Anonymous said...

IDPFO: ignoring demented post from onthestreet

Acronym to use if you are posting right after street posts.

ATAR_i said...

Yes Anonymous, OTS seems to have a high need to engage. If he is not engaged in his threads, and ignored - it won't give him the feedback and engagement he wants.

But I think that it's mostly for US (short term way to deal with the situation), and won't change the underlying pathology (and I'm not speaking about his loyalty to Warren)

I think he needs medication - and I am concerned.

ATAR_i said...

Fried Female - I hope you get ahold of Antique. Stinger has also been of great help as well, he is from the Blackmore group in Canada.

ATAR_i said...

Stinger

Yeah - I love that analogy!

Anonymous said...

Fried Female,

I know who Antique Mormon is, and I am sure he would be glad to talk with you. He is very knowledgeable on the facts with what has happened to the FLDS. I am sorry to hear that your family is still in danger. I hope the very best for you. I am a young mother who chose to not follow Warren's regime, and it has been very hard to have my family shun me and my children. It's hard to explain to a 5 year old why Grandpa and Grandma don't want to see them. Recently, my father said I was no longer welcome in his home and that if I wanted to see my mother, I would have to call and meet her somewhere. And as hard as it has been to have many friends and family shun me, I am just so glad that I am not caught up in the mess of distruction that is happening. I still have my same husband and I have some beautiful children...what more could I ask for? Again, I hope all goes well for you and that in the end, your family will still be intact. My prayers are with you!!

Anonymous said...

Does anyone on this blog know where a copy of Warren Jeff's claimed "Word of the Lord" revelations can be obtained? I have seen one such revelation in a book that I have.

Also, will someone tell me Warren Jeff's eye color? I realize that is a strange question. It helps me understand people to know their eye color.

I am researching the situation in ElDorado for a friend who apparently has two granddaughters married to Warren. He is concerned for them if something happens there.

TIA
Richard

Anonymous said...

OK. This is a hoot. Warren's eyes are brown. Now how does that help you understand people? Because mine are brown also and I can promise you right now that he and I are polar opposites on everything you can name.

Anonymous said...

Scientifically: Dark eyed people respond better to their environment. Light eyed (blue related) people are better initiators of new activity.

Rinn & Markle did a lot of research on this:

http://snipurl.com/eu1k

My own conviction is that fair complexion and blue eyes is one of the ways true Israel is being identified at this time. So I consider Warren as a Gentile, and not an Israelite. In the past, the Gentiles have often been better people that the Israelites, but times are changing.

ATAR_i said...

WTH <----What the H-e-double toothpicks

Anonymous said...

Yes, atari, I believe that in our friend Richard we have another "interesting" personality ala street, ruth and others. I like your acronyms. WTH is apt for pretty much all of it.

Anonymous said...

He's so full of it, that if he tips his head, one eye goes brown?

Anonymous said...

Dear Antique,
I appreciate the kind advice and loving tone of your comments. I am curious about one thing, however. Why did you advise me to move back to CC? What in all the earth and under heaven awaits me there but more sorrow and devastation? I would love to be able to help other people see the sense of just THINKING but I will never put myself back into that situation. Where do you live?

ATAR_i said...

I wouldn't go back myself. Life takes root in HOPE - and you feel no hope there, how can you have a life.

When I think of the things that I can do - I soar - just thinking about what is out there for me and my family. The possibilities - they are so endless.

Of course looking back won't be so painful after a time. Slowly that part dims - you remember the people, happy times.

Figure out what it is that you do believe, and go to a place that is peaceful and safe. Are you with your children and your husband?

Anonymous said...

My point was this. Lori and Ross stayed to show people and has that helped their cause? No. They are painted with the same paintbrush and they are openly snubbed by family and ex-friends alike. And I'll wager you 10 to 1 that their children are being tormented by the neighbors and peers. I will never do that to my family.

ATAR_i said...

Fried,

While I agree that Antique has a point - there is also a price - that your kids will pay for as well as you.

I guess I would save my children first - get them happy and healthy. I know the Canadaian group that is staying strong moved away - not far - and they have lots of support for each other.

But you and your family would be alone - and while it's idealistic to be a good example for your neighbors - until you and your family are healthy again - the cost to you all it too high - and you could potentially lose the things that are most important to you.

I felt the twinge when I read Antiques words 'I guess I assumed you wanted to help your friends' - I adore him - but that phrase stung a bit. I think that might be too strongly worded and weighted toward guilt in leaving (and I don't think guilt is a proper motivator for making decisions of this magnitude).

I do not believe that all opportunities for providing a good example are forfeit if you leave either.

You have to trust your gut on this one. NO one can make this decision for you - it has to be something YOU can live with - since you and your family are the ones that have to.

Anonymous said...

I was in town (Colorado City) last Wednesday, that piece of scripture is exalt was it is like, the one that I talked with seem to have a broken spirit, they have no drive left in them, they have no money, they have ben robbed of all their hope.

Anonymous said...

As for the photo 5/4/2004 8:09 It is of Marvin Wylers family. He has a beautiful family, that picture must have been 15 or 20 years ago. Because it shows Esther, she died in a car crash, her baby is now probably 20. He has been on TV a time or two and Ross is in that picture too. Talk to "Faithful woman" about that.
Uncle Marv had the most examplary family in town, hard workers, donated alot of time building up the kingdom, always had fun activities for the children, had the only swimming pool in town, everybody loved him, not a troublemaker in the lot. I imagine that his family has been split in half in the last couple years.

ATAR_i said...

How many kids does everyone have?

Anonymous said...

Collectively or what? I mean, everyone does not have the same number of children. For instance, my sister has 2 but I have a friend who has 9. And for the record, my sister is "in" and my friend has never had anything to do with it. So maybe a little clarification of what you're after would be in order.

ATAR_i said...

I meant.

Atari - I have 4

Fried Female - I have x amount

Faithful Woman - I have x amount

Stinger - I have x amount.


Get it?

ATAR_i said...

I have four children. A boy and three girls

Anonymous said...

I have four. Seems to be the average of this motley crew.

Anonymous said...

I believe that street has taken to playing video games to make up for organized religion. This all sounds like "quest" language to me.

ATAR_i said...

Arba <---Joshua 14:15 'the father of Anak'

Dunamis <-----ancient Greek feminine noun meaning strength power, ability

gedabar <-----probably spelled wrong

Arete An ancient greek femenine noun meaning a virtuous course of thought.... (see link)

OTS is branching out and using ancient greek words and etc in his nonsense talk - using ancient greek and obscure biblical names certainly don't add any sort of cohesiveness to his words. You just can't get blood from a turnip.

And just in case OTS want's to make some obsure spiritual statement from that last statement - I'll include a reference.

"you can't get blood from a turnip" can be traced b ack to G. Torriano's Common Place of Italian Proverbs' 1666. First attested in the US in the 'Letters from William Cobbett to Edward Thornton' in 1800. The proverb is found in varying forms - 'you can't get blood from a stone' or 'you can't get something from someone who doesn't have it'.

My meaningin YOU CAN'T GET SENSE FROM NONSENSE

Anonymous said...

the normal gut wretch reaction to vomit is to make a contribution to the pile

street can use his fork to pick out the chunks if he wants, but as for me:

Thanks, but no thanks.

ATAR_i said...

Sting - awesome!

Anonymous said...

To Stinger, Atar_i, GBNF, Mugwum, rayj, etal:
Have you not noticed that comments about or resposes to Onthestreet just prompt more bad behavior on his part? I believe we would be better off if everyone just ignores him. Don't direct any comments his way. Don't answer any of his.

Now that I've got that off my chest, I'll take my own advice and not mention it again.

Thank you. I'll go back to lurking now.

Anonymous said...

Street! Winston was also right in saying over on his blog that the idea that the prophet was doing all the placing was more pretended than real.

Anonymous said...

WHERE does it say that Jesus had many women FONDLING him?

And God does command men to get married, but he doesn't specify to WHOM. He said "Take A (singular, non-specific) wife unto my son. . " Not take THIS wife. Street, you are SO screwed up, I don't think you'll ever get unscrewed in this life or the life to come.