Monday, May 02, 2005

Underage Behind the Walls

Is there any way to find out if any of the women who are behind the wall who want to come out? I'm just trying to figure out how someone could communicate with the girls, especially the young wives (less than 18). Does anyone know of anyone who is behind the wall who has stated they do not want to be there?

97 comments:

Eye Witness said...

First you have to realize that the YFZ is not behind a wall. It is fenced, just like every other ranch here. Neither is it accessible from a public road. The YFZ has an easment through another ranch. The only way to get a look inside is from the air and, as far as I know, nobody has talked to any of the girls.

ATAR_i said...

Does anyone ever come out - grocery shopping, doctors - anything?

Eye Witness said...

Only a couple of men come into town. We never see any women. I've heard stories that some of them go to San Angelo (45 miles away) for doctor visits. We think they buy their supplies in bulk and have their own storehouse, or commissary as the newspaper calls it, on the ranch.

ATAR_i said...

What is the physical address of the property? Anyone know?

Eye Witness said...

That's easy,

Route 1
Eldorado, TX 76936

Eldorado has only one rural route.

A better address would be 4 miles north-northeast of Eldorado on County Road 300

ThePilot said...

Just a FYI:

Dr. Phil is doing a show today on brainwashed brides.

http://www.drphil.com/show/show.jhtml?contentId=3109_brainwashedbrides.xml

ATAR_i said...

I saw the promo today while I was at work - I'm getting home in time to watch it.

Sergeant Friday said...

Members of the group frequent town on a daily basis, they do business with the City of Eldorado, drop by the Sheriff's Office on occassion and frequent several businesses in town. The majority of their business is in the city of San Angelo. The women have come into town but usually accompanied by their spouse and tend to keep a low profile (usually stay in the vehicle while fueling up etc). contact with some of the women on the ranch has been made by the local sheriff both locally and in Utah and Arizona. There is no evidence or indication that anyone is being held against there will as widely speculated. This of course is being monitored closely by the local authorities. Routine medical and dental appointments are being carried out in San Angelo by both the men and women.

ATAR_i said...

I'm glad they do come in to town. I doubt evidence of an underage girls matrimony would present itself on a silver platter, and would assume that everything put on display in public is, for the most part, appropriate - perhaps not societal norm - but nothing criminal.

I think we're WAY BEYOND speculating that young girls are pressured to get married and are given to a man not of their choosing - that's just the way it is. Wether an outsider will have any knowledge that it's happening is doubtful - unless there is a mole.

But, at this point I would be happy if Warren would answer to the allegations already in the courts leveled against him by his own nephew. THAT is something that can be dealt with, then we can begin to see if he's committed statutory rape of girls as well. Isn't his taste for young ones relevant (male or female).

So - what's happening with his nephews case - Has Warren been served?

x-plig said...

Nice PR campaign Sergeant Friday. Did you get your paycheck from Sam Barlow when you came to Short Creek last week?

Native Texan said...

Love the photo, x-plig!

Sergeant Friday said...

Yes I did, plus I got a microwave as an extra bonus...LOL!

Unfortunately when you work on Fact and Evidence the above statement is reality.

Since you seem to be so knowledgeable and feel you know me and feel you must slander a person by accusing them of being on the payroll.
I challenge you to make contact with me, raise your hand and swear a statement of fact before the Judge of a crime that occurred here in Texas, specifically in Schleicher County and I will promise you an arrest warrant. Remember it has to be the truth no false statement or that could come back and bite you as far as Texas law is concerned.

ThePilot said...

Hey, check this out:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4629743

ATAR_i said...

SGT Friday:

Are you actually in law enforcement in one of the areas (CC or Eldorado)? If so....

What is the status with bringing Warren out to answer the allegations leveled at him by his nephew?

What about birth certificates that list underage girls giving birth to babies and paternity is Warren Jeffs (or any other man who isn't underage)? With official record filed with the state, do you need a sworn statement?

If you are a polygamist (not necessarily FLDS), I'm thinking your not. I would like to know (either way) - as it affects how I view the answers that you give me. Would you state whether you are/are not a polygamist - for the record.

ATAR_i said...

ex-plig

Is that really you - or do you just have a delicious sense of humor?

ATAR_i said...

Pilot

Did you take that photo?

ATAR_i said...

Who are the people in t his Photo?

Sergeant Friday said...

Not a Fundamentalist LDS
(for the record)
There has been no proof in Texas of births certificates indicating underage marriage (I again state Texas) however I understand there has been some birth certificates surface through a news media indicating a violation of Utah or Arizona law being a minor under the age of 18 that gave birth. I feel if there is proof and of course it helps to have the willingness of a victim to come forward and give a statment. Than by all means there should be a full prosecution of the law. I can only speak for Texas and what goes on in this jurisdiction.
Allegations of Warren molesting his nephew was in the form of a lawsuit against him and the UEP, I have not heard of any official complaint filed by the victim with law enforcement charging Warren with a crime, if so I feel there would have been a felony warrant issued, but thats in Utah / Arizona not Texas.

ThePilot said...

To ATAR_i:

You may not believe this, but I have never taken a photo of the compound. Most of the photos that have been published have come from our airplane, including the one that Jon took of the prophet Jan 1, 2005, but not by me. I am too busy flying the aircraft with flaps down at near stalling speed to worry about a camera. I fly with absolute experts in digital photography. I do what I am trained to do; the photographers do what they are trained to do.

Sergeant Friday said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ATAR_i said...

Sarg:

Thanks for clarifying the nephew molestation question - I assumed the latter situation (felony warrant) - and not the former.

Boy - law enforcement has their hands full - it seems so simple - but sounds like the particulars might be difficult to work out. I guess the Warrenites learned a few tricks over the last decades.

Sounds like a chess game - I hope the locals can get a few moves ahead.

Antique Mormon said...

Thank you Sarg for your report. Life in any society includes the basic needs of humanity. If any think that the YFZ is filled with Warrens, then think again. If it was, there would be no homes, no temple, no gardens, no activity.He has never done any of those things. There would be just songs of everlasting bliss coming from a spot in the sagebrush. Everyone that gets married is not 15,16, or 17 either.

It is not the majority of those folks that are a problem with anyone or anyone's particular culture and society. They make for a good story and good coffee shop conversation, and make business for a certain pilot we know. They also keep the media hopping, and like it or not have most likely added a huge benefit for the region economically. Warren is nothing to be afraid of. His obsession with other peoples wives and families does not mean that the whole community has the same feelings. Sometime, somewhere, as life always provides, he will be faced with the prospects of suffering the same thing he has imposed upon his neighbors, friends and followers. When that happens you will all be wonderfully pleased to get to know how decent the rest of your neighbors really are.

Boaz said...

Antique Mormon,
I am new to the Blog as far as being a team member but not new to the subject or current events. I fully agree that there are many wonderful people within the FLDS community, yes the community obviously has some problems but so does society if you want to compare notes. The "lower ranks" if you will are hard working family oriented people that want to serve their God in the only manner they know how. Its hard for mainstream society to fathom their culture but its probably equally as hard for them to fathom main stream America's culture. I think the point we as christians do not want to miss is that we are all Gods Children regardless of our race, religion or skin color and we need to be careful not to discriminate based on somebody elses culture. The Police should act on any violations of law that presents itself but not go after them because of the controversy that surrounds them.
Just my opinion for what ever its worth.

Inside_Out said...

I would have to second that one Bo.

ATAR_i said...

I agree but with reservations - related to the children, and more.

While Warren has clearly taken his polygamist group in an unhealthy direction - there are several things that need to be addressed and CANNOT be overlooked.

1. Young girls married before the age of consent
2. Polygamy is illegal
3. Fathers not taking financial responsibility for their celestial wives and offspring.
4. Education of young girls and boys.
5. Abuse in the home

I am NOT saying that these issues do not exist in society in general - each of them do. However the prevalence of the offense remains unchecked and out of balance for the number in the group.

While most of his community would probaby rejoice if he were ousted - those issues above, and probably more, still need to be addressed internally and externally.

Some of the above clearly fall in the pervue of nation/state/county law and ordinances, but others will need to be addressed internally (and so it will be necessary for someone in FLDS leadership to discourage some of the negative behaviors).

If I visit Colorado City - it would be nice if local law enforcement and plain citizens didn't try to intimidate me. I wouldn't expect to trample on private property - but also don't want it to look like a scene from 'Duel' (remember that old movie with the mac truck following that old sedan and intimidating him).

If a young girl wants to leave - why does she have to be intimidated into staying, and told she can never come back - why must she be shunned? Has this custom only been since Warren - or brewing much longer?

Would a young man and young woman who like each other be allowed to decide for themselves if they like each other - and if they will marry and if they will participate in multiple partners?

Should a child be forced to marry, forced to have sex, forced to have as many children as possible, and forced to live in polygamy? YOU CAN'T CALL IT RELIGIOUS FREEDOM IF THERE IS NO CHOICE

I'm stepping off my soapbox now.

Antique Mormon said...

Friends and fellow bloggers! Thank you for allowing me to take the soap box stand. First may I thank atar_i for your thoughtful remarks, and for boaz,who by the way is one of my favorite bible characters. First for your five points.
1. Warren's father frowned upon underage marriage and counselled against it. They were few and far between in his pre-stroke era, and were allowed only on rare occasions.
2. Polygamy is having more relationships than one at the same time. If everyone in America that was involved in multiple relationships were arrested there would be no one left to run the place. Not long ago the United States could have boasted the first openly polygamist President.
3. Dead beat dads are one of the nations plagues. You are right, fathers do need to be responsible for their children. One of the FLDS problems is this. They remove a family from a man, give them to someone else, and then employ the judicial system in ordering child support. He is considered a wicked apostate if he wants to visit his children that are now someone else's. It is called fighting against the prophet and is a creation of Warren. I imagine that it is repulsive to most of the people that are with him, even those that are involved in it. There is lots more that can be said about it.
4. Our people used to be able to boast that we had scores enrolled in post secondary education. Today,I bow my head in shame.
5. Not every home is abusive. Hundreds are not. It is no excuse that abuse happens in every town in America. It shouldn't have ever happened to us. I do not believe that the ratio is greater in Short Creek or the YFZ than it is in Eldorado or St. George. The difference is that in the other communities it is not news. Neither is premarital sex, or when two teens run off and marry, or when kids drop out of school at grade 9 because they are pregnant and so on. If there was an abortion ever done in Short Creek or YFZ and it became public, the media would attack it like something good had finally happened and it would be heralded around the world. In the other societies it is quietly done, problem over, case closed. But that is no excuse for us. We need to make a change and get our children educated.

I don't think that most would rejoice if Warren was ousted. I am not defending him either. He just has plenty of people who think he is the best thing that has happened since they made ketchup. He has opened things up for the people. We used to not believe in divorce. Anyone of those women can get rid of their man,(unless of course they are married to the Allreds, Jeffs,and Merrill Jessops boys)just by being a little seductive then accusing their husband of having adulterous thoughts if he happens to reach out and touch them in the wrong spot. You may think that I am fooling but it is the truth.

You are so right when you say that someone in the FLDS must make the change. It will never be made until they do. Not only must the ministry be more responsible, the parents need to stand up as responsible parents and protect their children. Any number of Flora's will never change one thing.(No offence Flora) The change has got to come from some thoughtful, influential, determined men and women within that society who are willing to stand up and say,"we need to admit that something is wrong. We need to educate our children, gather up our boys and girls, feed them some meals, go with them to drug and alcohol rehab, hold onto their hands while they are in their darkest hour, and listen to their wants and needs". That my friends, is our greatest and darkest challenge.

Once again, my heartfelt apology to any who have been harrassed as they drove down the public streets of Colorado City. How do you know it is public? If a State paid for fire truck, patrol car or ambulance can drive down a road, then it is a public road. End of the story. When the UEP is secure for all of those who have used up their lives building it up, then this will no longer happen.

Shunning is not just a Mormon problem, but Mormons worldwide have perfected it. It is called being disfellowshipped by us and is as old as organized religion. We send our young men out to preach the gospel to the ends of the earth and then disallow our own struggling children to come where they may be encouraged, blest and helped. Who knows why?

Prior to the Warren regime, hundreds of marriages were driven by the couples wanting to marry each other. Shamefully it has not been the case in recent years. The major problem was that all of the rest of the people were not aware that that is what was going on. That also includes plural marriages.

Lastly, no one should have to marry anyone that they do not want to. Yes, it has been done to our everlasting shame. It was in the pre Warren days far less prevalent, but even one case is one to many. The age of consent is that any child that is 16 years old can get a marriage license with the consent of her or his parents and then he or she can marry anyone that they want to. Maybe in some cases that is ok. It must be or it wouldn't be a law in two nations. The reality of it all is that unless these youngsters are growing up together, the wisdom of the weakest of mankind would have to admit that a couple more years are just not to
many for a person to wait to gain that little bit of extra wisdom that they need to make a choice that will last hopefully for the rest of their lives, and in the case of a Mormon, we believe eternally.

I now present this soap box back to you.

ATAR_i said...

Antique (you know I love antiques)

Great reply - lots of good information - it makes me feel as if there is hope for the kids in your community - knowing you feel the way you do (I'm assuming you are FLDS).

I had a few follow up questions regarding some of your statements.

I wasn't sure what you meant about accusing your husband of adultry if he touches you in a wrong place (I didn't know there were any?) Can you explain that further. Also - why couldn't a woman do that to the Steeds, Allreds, Jessops?

As far as the 'Duel comment' I was assuming that the roads leading through town are not owned by UEP, and that the public buildings that are there, are in fact - open to the public. I do understand that they purchased all the private land. But does the UEP own the police station and the roads as well (that would suprise me).

Curiousity compels me to ask - antique - how did you come by choosing your name?

ThePilot said...

To Antique Mormon:

I am sure that you have been approached by many of your constituents about taking over compound. Would you take over the compound given the opportunity? Could you do it? You seem to be a sane person in the midst of insanity.

PS: Nothing new to report. The women in beautiful dresses are working in the garden. The men are working on the Temple. The “New Zion” is truly a beautiful place and a tribute to the FLDS.

ATAR_i said...

Antique - I agree with pilot, a sane voice. Are there many such as yourself who feel the same? Have you been excommunicated?

A Friend said...

I'm so glad to be able to use this service once again. Thank you. Concerning the remarks by Atar-1 05 05 05 Should a child be forced to marry etc? Absolutely not! It is not freedom of any kind if that is happening. Just by being Canadian makes me one of the most fortunate people on earth, for I have a right to choose the road I wish to travel and that is an honor not everyone from every nation realizes as completely as we do. And although I agree that no one should be forced into marriage, I also believe that people who desire to move on with their lives shouldn't have to wait until they are 20+ just to impress someone else. We have the right and freedom to cherish and live life to it's fullest! Thank you.

Antique Mormon said...

Good morning pilot and atar_i. In the FLDS community there is supposed to be no intimacy if you are beyond the years of having children. Warren wrote a book on it. There is also no intimacy allowed during pregnancy, lactation and then the long wait between children. Many of those boys have lost their families because they caressed their wives at the wrong time of their life. In a mechanical life with a mechanical wife, affection has a hard time turning into real love. Under those conditions anywhere you touch them is the wrong place. There are of course different rules for different people. Like some scene from a George Orwell novel you could say, "all pligs are equal but some pligs are more equal than others". No really, all joking aside, it is a human trajedy.

The roads of the UEP are on the UEP property. They are however upgraded and paved many times by State grant money. Many buildings are leased to the State agencies and are supported by public funds. I say, drive on them and obey the speed limit. If someone bothers you then they shouldn't. Make a note of it. You are an American and are quite likely driving on a road that you helped to make with your own money.

I am an old Mormon, hence antique. I was around this place when decency, honesty, education and families meant something. I witnessed graduations, fathers,daughters and sons that loved each other. Oh yes, that includes mothers as well. I saw the flag of the United States raised high and a devoted admiring people stand with the greatest of respect for the values that it represented. I watched and heard our old Prophet Leroy Johnson repeat the pledge of allegiance, saw him stand to the anthem, and heard him praise the education of our young people. I heard him speak about the eternal nature of marriage, watched him work with the people and plead that they learn how to love each other. Those were the old days, and they were a part of our faith.

No, I would not take over the compound. Our people have willingly rejected the fundamentals of our faith. Like the children of Israel in ancient history they wanted a king. They made themselves one.

There are still many people who don't like what is happening. Many like myself.

Warren can cut us off all that he wants. In the end history will repeat itself and like Saul he will be known as one of the bloodiest kings of all time.

Anonymous said...

Wow Antique Mormon,

Very interesting and insightful post. Now I kind of understand....they are a bunch of robots. No initmacy at all, very sad, families can not be held together that way. No one to talk to, no one to hold you when you need it and well no husband and wife intimacy. How can they stand it?????

onthestreet said...

Antique Mormon Said: Warren can cut us off all that he wants. In the end history will repeat itself and like Saul he will be known as one of the bloodiest kings of all time. 5/10/2005 9:31 AM

I'll repost only briefly, for better effect, and in order to reference to posts directly to my comments.

Street's Reply: Men who are cut off can't blame anyone for their crimes, except themselves. That's the law, the constitutional law, as well as the Law of the Lord.

As for blood, the bloodies are those who take life, and especially those who slay innocent children, now a million and a half every year in monogamy, vs the FLDS who give life, and that abundantly.

As for the comparing of Saul and David, remember that David is the one who actually "slew his 10,000's, and Saul his thousands."

There, that tells it pretty straight.

ATAR_i said...

(ignoring demented post from onthestreet)

Antique

You have done such a good job explaining how things slowly got to the place that they are now. I have found you and Stinger invaluable in your ability to express that FLDS was not intended to be what Warrens cult offshoot has become.

As I told Stinger - there are many things that theologically we would disagree on but I don't doubt that historically the FLDS gave general consideration to friends, local government and strangers, wether or not they were members of FLDS.

While polygamy in inconceivable to me, I can see that even in this situation - there can be a loving way to practice it - a harsh one, and apparently now a tragic way of practicing it.

Can you conceive of something that would deliver these Warrenites to a safety - emotionally and physically.

Stinger said...

Atar,
Thanks for your understanding. I found a quote that goes along with what you said.
A Native American elder once described his own inner struggles in this manner:
"Inside of me there are two dogs. One of the dogs is mean and evil. The other dog is good. The mean dog fights the good dog all the time."
When asked which dog wins, he reflected for a moment and replied, "The one I feed the most."

Anonymous said...

Atar_i,

Sorry to get off topic for a moment, but are we using the same child psychology for onthestreet that I use on my children sometimes? You know, ignoring negative behavior and rewarding positive behavior (if it ever surfaces)?

haha - it looked familiar!!

Fried Female said...

Antique, please help me. You are verbalizing everything I have felt. Have you openly declared yourself? Have you lost your family and been kicked out of the community? I need to find you and compare notes. I can't tell you who I am on this forum, because my family is still in danger. But I would love to speak with a logical mind. Any ideas?

Anonymous said...

Friend female, maybe you could get a link through the administrator, to get ahold of Antique. I believe I know who he is. He is very much a people person and I'm sure he would help in any way he could.

Anonymous said...

IDPFO: ignoring demented post from onthestreet

Acronym to use if you are posting right after street posts.

ATAR_i said...

Yes Anonymous, OTS seems to have a high need to engage. If he is not engaged in his threads, and ignored - it won't give him the feedback and engagement he wants.

But I think that it's mostly for US (short term way to deal with the situation), and won't change the underlying pathology (and I'm not speaking about his loyalty to Warren)

I think he needs medication - and I am concerned.

ATAR_i said...

Fried Female - I hope you get ahold of Antique. Stinger has also been of great help as well, he is from the Blackmore group in Canada.

ATAR_i said...

Stinger

Yeah - I love that analogy!

Anonymous said...

Fried Female,

I know who Antique Mormon is, and I am sure he would be glad to talk with you. He is very knowledgeable on the facts with what has happened to the FLDS. I am sorry to hear that your family is still in danger. I hope the very best for you. I am a young mother who chose to not follow Warren's regime, and it has been very hard to have my family shun me and my children. It's hard to explain to a 5 year old why Grandpa and Grandma don't want to see them. Recently, my father said I was no longer welcome in his home and that if I wanted to see my mother, I would have to call and meet her somewhere. And as hard as it has been to have many friends and family shun me, I am just so glad that I am not caught up in the mess of distruction that is happening. I still have my same husband and I have some beautiful children...what more could I ask for? Again, I hope all goes well for you and that in the end, your family will still be intact. My prayers are with you!!

onthestreet said...

But I think that it's mostly for US (short term way to deal with the situation), and won't change the underlying pathology (and I'm not speaking about his loyalty to Warren). I think he needs medication - and I am concerned.
5/11/2005 8:30 AM

Street's Reply: Atar roof melts in the heat, not being able to take the heat. But the Lord will deal with your situation. Granted, your underlying pathology is serious, but you're right about loyalty to Warren not being a pathology. As far as my needing medication, that's true. He is my medication, and as for you: We are concerned. Most of your ilk don't survive it.

Richard said...

Does anyone on this blog know where a copy of Warren Jeff's claimed "Word of the Lord" revelations can be obtained? I have seen one such revelation in a book that I have.

Also, will someone tell me Warren Jeff's eye color? I realize that is a strange question. It helps me understand people to know their eye color.

I am researching the situation in ElDorado for a friend who apparently has two granddaughters married to Warren. He is concerned for them if something happens there.

TIA
Richard

Anonymous said...

OK. This is a hoot. Warren's eyes are brown. Now how does that help you understand people? Because mine are brown also and I can promise you right now that he and I are polar opposites on everything you can name.

Richard said...

Scientifically: Dark eyed people respond better to their environment. Light eyed (blue related) people are better initiators of new activity.

Rinn & Markle did a lot of research on this:

http://snipurl.com/eu1k

My own conviction is that fair complexion and blue eyes is one of the ways true Israel is being identified at this time. So I consider Warren as a Gentile, and not an Israelite. In the past, the Gentiles have often been better people that the Israelites, but times are changing.

ATAR_i said...

WTH <----What the H-e-double toothpicks

Anonymous said...

Yes, atari, I believe that in our friend Richard we have another "interesting" personality ala street, ruth and others. I like your acronyms. WTH is apt for pretty much all of it.

Anonymous said...

Richard
Are you for real. Have ever heard of Adolph Hitler?

Whoops, someone forgot to tell Adolph.

Blond and Blue Eyes

Anonymous said...

He's so full of it, that if he tips his head, one eye goes brown?

Antique Mormon said...

Hello Fried Female. You are definitley not alone in your struggle. My heart goes out to you. Communicating on this blog is quite a challenge. If you can get past a guy who is worrying about what color of eyes you have(I presume that skin color makes a difference to him as well)and then bounce past the nefarious ranting of an unmedicated dangerously ill psychopath, you should be able to get some rather wholesome advice from the rest of the folks. My advice is to hang in there as long as you can, especially if by disclosing yourself you put other people at risk. If your children are just going to leave you, if your husband would leave you, if you alienate the human structure that any real survivor needs, then just quietly hang in there.

Start to do some of the decent things. Here are a few. Read the New Testament to your children. Explain to them that the love of God includes the real teachings of God. Compare the words of Jesus Christ in the Bible with His teachings in the Book of Mormon. Get back to your basics. Tell your children every faith promoting story that you have ever heard told by our early day leaders. Don't read them, tell them, and you will not put yourself at risk by having some unapproved literature around when the boys come around to spy on you. When you are just sick of that tape playing endlessly in the background, shut it off and tell the children to gather round while you tell them a story.

Go for a walk with your husband. Look for plants, animals, rocks. Buy a book to help you identify them. Rest your mind. Hold onto his hand like you want to hold it forever. Think of something else. Talk about something else. List your dreams, your hopes for your children, your dreams for yourself. Be honest, open and forthright. Initiate some intimacy and take full responsibility for your actions. Keep your privacy to yourself. It is a trick of the devil to get people to feel dirty about an intimate association between husbands and wives. One of our old priesthood fathers when talking on the topic said, "the crime wasn't that the bishop and his wife were chasing each other around in their house naked, the crime was that anyone else knew about it". The job you have at hand is to get this guy back on track and for you to do it as well. Be discreet, careful, and quiet about your personal life.

Find a correspondence course that you can do. Learn how to do something that you have always wanted to do. That will occupy lots of your painful waiting and you will be doing something useful.

If there is nothing else to do but wait, then wait this thing out. When your husband and family are comfortably, happily with you, gather up your things in the middle of the day, and move back to CC. When you are back there don't forsake your faith, just go back to the faith you used to have. Wear your standards, groom them, teach them, live them, love them. We are what we are deep down inside. We will only lose if we forsake our faith. God bless you dear sister. You are not fried, you are just terribly tried. One faithful sister can do more to establish the dignity of our sacred faith than a thousand cowering elders. God be with you!

Fried Female said...

Dear Antique,
I appreciate the kind advice and loving tone of your comments. I am curious about one thing, however. Why did you advise me to move back to CC? What in all the earth and under heaven awaits me there but more sorrow and devastation? I would love to be able to help other people see the sense of just THINKING but I will never put myself back into that situation. Where do you live?

ATAR_i said...

I wouldn't go back myself. Life takes root in HOPE - and you feel no hope there, how can you have a life.

When I think of the things that I can do - I soar - just thinking about what is out there for me and my family. The possibilities - they are so endless.

Of course looking back won't be so painful after a time. Slowly that part dims - you remember the people, happy times.

Figure out what it is that you do believe, and go to a place that is peaceful and safe. Are you with your children and your husband?

Antique Mormon said...

Dear Fried Friend,
I guess that my advice was on the presumption that you wanted to help your friends. You will never help them if they can't see that there is life in you. They will be told you have turned dark and they will believe it if they can't see that you are not. With the greatest of respect for ATAR_I, and I do respect your view, if we of the fundamentalist faith all go away, then the leadership who absolutely do not care about the truth will just be able to paint us with that same old brush.(apostate) If your friends can see you still being what you are really, you will have more influence than you can imagine. What is needed is some women to say "I am going to stay", and then stay with your husband, your values, your faith. Stay with Uncle Roy! We all knew what he stood for. Let those folks see you do something other than cower to the damning hand of the oppressor. In society at large, many families grow up in neighborhoods that don't even know who their next door neighbors are. They live and love and educate their children, mind their business and practice their religion. You could do that as well. We are watching a slaughter of our friends, our values, our faith, our hope. I believe that we can make a difference by our focus on what it is that we really are.
By all means preserve your sanity, so if you can't go back just yet, then don't do it until you feel mentally well and solid again.

As for me, I am one of your neighbors who has known from the beginning that there is nothing fundamental about the FLDS. There is nothing Mormon about what we have either. Having said that, I don't believe that we need to forsake our faith. We need to shake off the dirty that has fallen on us. Let's face this fact. Under Warren we stink as a people. Wife swapping, ethnic cleansing, class discrimination, child abuse, brainwashing, loss of natural affection, lovers of lies, not interested in the truth, superiority, racial bias, oppression of the hireling in his wages, and on and on will forever be the legacy of Warren in this dark and ugly page of fundamentalist history. Our sacred United Effort Plan that has been robbed and looted, and has been brought to shame needs us to stand for the faith of our founding fathers. They never planned on the disease that has overtaken it. We have got to try and do something even if it is just to be stable and quiet and live our religion. May the God of our fathers be with and bless you dear sister.

Fried Female said...

My point was this. Lori and Ross stayed to show people and has that helped their cause? No. They are painted with the same paintbrush and they are openly snubbed by family and ex-friends alike. And I'll wager you 10 to 1 that their children are being tormented by the neighbors and peers. I will never do that to my family.

ATAR_i said...

Fried,

While I agree that Antique has a point - there is also a price - that your kids will pay for as well as you.

I guess I would save my children first - get them happy and healthy. I know the Canadaian group that is staying strong moved away - not far - and they have lots of support for each other.

But you and your family would be alone - and while it's idealistic to be a good example for your neighbors - until you and your family are healthy again - the cost to you all it too high - and you could potentially lose the things that are most important to you.

I felt the twinge when I read Antiques words 'I guess I assumed you wanted to help your friends' - I adore him - but that phrase stung a bit. I think that might be too strongly worded and weighted toward guilt in leaving (and I don't think guilt is a proper motivator for making decisions of this magnitude).

I do not believe that all opportunities for providing a good example are forfeit if you leave either.

You have to trust your gut on this one. NO one can make this decision for you - it has to be something YOU can live with - since you and your family are the ones that have to.

Stinger said...

Atar,
I want to make a correction to your post. None of us in Canada moved. We all live in the same place and the same way as we did before warren started his little power trip.

Antique Mormon said...

Dear friends,
Atari you have good advice. No one could possibly be more cruel than our people. Warren has rewritten the book on cruelty when it comes to families. If he can pit mother against daughter, father against son, brother against brother, then that is how he gets his jollies. He has been doing that for years. If your situation in returning would be accomplishing just that, then you would know that one better than anyone else. Keep the peace would be a good motto.

Everyone of us who has been in your struggle will be pulling for you. We are more than you think. Some of us are closer than you think. Hang in there or as atari says, get out of there and get that strength you need. God will bless you.

Faithful Woman said...

fried female
I'm not trying to make up your mind but thought some observations I have made might put a few of your fears to rest.

I too was anxious about neighboring children tanting my children, especialy since we live right next to the warrenite school they used to go to and have to wait for the bus every morning just across the ravine from the school playground. So far the bigest problem we have had is that the bus drivers are warrenites.

Since we are not in the warrenite school any more, my children have not been in situations where the warrenite children could have much influence. Truthfuly, the public school has become a better environment since the warrenites withdrew.

The teachers have all gone through the same osterization as we now face and are very understanding and supportive. Even Kimbal Barlow has been very good to work with and seems to genuinely care for the children, lol, and in light of the new legislation just passed in Arizona pertaining to the take over of the school, he really wants to keep his job. Unless some one can show me where he has abused his authority, I tend to suport him in his job. The children love him, that says something.

There are many 'second warders' who still live in CC and lately there has been fewer cold stares and turned faces and more discreet waves and smiles from the warrenites. I guess the more fanatical of them are in Texas. I seem to find as many people willing to stop and visit with me whils doing my errands about town as before, just different ones. What a way to expand your circle of influence ay?

Paladin for Truth said...

Proverbs 17:22
A cheerful heart is good medicine, but a broken spirit saps a person's strength.


Let everyone decide for themselves how Warren is running things.

Anonymous said...

I was in town (Colorado City) last Wednesday, that piece of scripture is exalt was it is like, the one that I talked with seem to have a broken spirit, they have no drive left in them, they have no money, they have ben robbed of all their hope.

Anonymous said...

As for the photo 5/4/2004 8:09 It is of Marvin Wylers family. He has a beautiful family, that picture must have been 15 or 20 years ago. Because it shows Esther, she died in a car crash, her baby is now probably 20. He has been on TV a time or two and Ross is in that picture too. Talk to "Faithful woman" about that.
Uncle Marv had the most examplary family in town, hard workers, donated alot of time building up the kingdom, always had fun activities for the children, had the only swimming pool in town, everybody loved him, not a troublemaker in the lot. I imagine that his family has been split in half in the last couple years.

Someone Special said...

Responding to Faithful Woman, Fried Female, etc.

As hard as it is to keep trying to go back, in my experience, it is worth the try. I smile and say HELLO every chance I get. If I get no reply, that is their problem, not mine. I know that if I keep smiling and saying HI to the children of my former friends and family, I will be someone they will trust to come to if they ever need help. If they never see me, they won't know me, and they might start believing what they are being told about me. I just want the children to see that I am the same as I always was.

I know I can never gain someones trust, or respect by finding fault with what they have chosen to do, or believe.

rayj said...

here's a song I learned in 5th grade in CC (over 30 years ago):

I love those dear hearts and gentle people who live in my hometown because those dear hearts and gentle people will never ever let you down.
They read the good books from fri till monday thats how the weekend goes, I feel so welcome each time that I return that my happy heart keeps laughing like a clown, I love those dear hearts and gentle people who live and love in my hometown....
what happened guys?
some people just don't know how to be ugly and others always were.

ATAR_i said...

How many kids does everyone have?

Anonymous said...

Collectively or what? I mean, everyone does not have the same number of children. For instance, my sister has 2 but I have a friend who has 9. And for the record, my sister is "in" and my friend has never had anything to do with it. So maybe a little clarification of what you're after would be in order.

ATAR_i said...

I meant.

Atari - I have 4

Fried Female - I have x amount

Faithful Woman - I have x amount

Stinger - I have x amount.


Get it?

Stinger said...

I have three children. A boy and two girls.

ATAR_i said...

I have four children. A boy and three girls

Fried Female said...

I have four. Seems to be the average of this motley crew.

Inside_Out said...

I have two awesome, educated, free, respectful, boys.

onthestreet said...

Inside out, for sure.

Faithful Woman said...

I have six. Two boys, four girls. Doing well in school and excited to be out for vacation.

onthestreet said...

I have four too. Yay team!

Virtue is Gedabar: Treasury, Assembly; Dunamis: Force, miraculous power, violence, strength, mighty work, wonder; Arba: Four, Arete: manliness (even for a woman), valor, excellence, even as the Father is perfect.

I a sinner, have four in him, in his servant.

Stinger said...

??????????

HardHeaded said...

???????

Anonymous said...

I believe that street has taken to playing video games to make up for organized religion. This all sounds like "quest" language to me.

ATAR_i said...

Arba <---Joshua 14:15 'the father of Anak'

Dunamis <-----ancient Greek feminine noun meaning strength power, ability

gedabar <-----probably spelled wrong

Arete An ancient greek femenine noun meaning a virtuous course of thought.... (see link)

OTS is branching out and using ancient greek words and etc in his nonsense talk - using ancient greek and obscure biblical names certainly don't add any sort of cohesiveness to his words. You just can't get blood from a turnip.

And just in case OTS want's to make some obsure spiritual statement from that last statement - I'll include a reference.

"you can't get blood from a turnip" can be traced b ack to G. Torriano's Common Place of Italian Proverbs' 1666. First attested in the US in the 'Letters from William Cobbett to Edward Thornton' in 1800. The proverb is found in varying forms - 'you can't get blood from a stone' or 'you can't get something from someone who doesn't have it'.

My meaningin YOU CAN'T GET SENSE FROM NONSENSE

Anonymous said...

the normal gut wretch reaction to vomit is to make a contribution to the pile

street can use his fork to pick out the chunks if he wants, but as for me:

Thanks, but no thanks.

Stinger said...

I found someone who might be able to make sense out of what ots says.
www.excludedmiddle.com/occulted_dr._seuss.htm

ATAR_i said...

Sting - awesome!

onthestreet said...

I AM SAM

onthestreet said...

“I AM SAM. . .SAM I AM”: You can study it till dooms day (literally), but who can uncover the mystery?
God reveals the mystery to his own. I won’t tell you all that it means, but I’ll tell you what you need:

“Sam” is Cam in Hebrew: Sweet smell, Incense, likeness. Cam-el is the likeness of El (God), or SAM(E). This is Mich-A-El, in the solemn assembly of the saints, Almighty God in the Holy Sanctuary, tiferet or the heart and true self of all things. In the Holy Script we find “Sam-u-el,” “Sam-son”, “Sam-ech”, and many such terms. Take Samuel, for example: “S-A-M” are the three mothers (wives) required for exaltation in the presence of God. So we have Shin (Fire of Creation), Alef (air of acceptance, or Altar of Incense), and Mem (Joyful service in the water and veil to the temple). There you have SAM. The “U” is “V”, the Vav, and the “El” is God with us, in his kingdom on earth. Thus: SAM-U-EL. When you add: “I Am, these are the highest central gates, so when you say: “I AM SAM,” you are saying: “I,” the highest Self or God over us, give through the abyss AM (knowledge of God), to the true self of our being (SAM), which unites the mothers in the holy sanctuary. This is the basis of the true church, and no other church has it. This is the upper face of God on the Tree of Life.

Now, when you reverse it by trying to dictate to God or to his prophet, you are saying it backwards. The true path is: “I AM SAM” (that is: God through his chosen watchman upon the earth, gives or dictates to me through my heart or true self, all things), for “I” is God the high self over us, “AM” is knowledge that we please him by doing unto the least of the prophets what we would do unto God, and “SAM” is the true self. But backwards, we start with ourselves (vox populi), instead of starting with God (vox dei), by saying: SAM I AM, thus literally proclaiming ourselves above God, a serious crime indeed. This is where we are separated from God, his upper face.

Now, this is the reason for the rest of the Dr. Seuss Tale (and God has given us all the ancient “fairy-tales”):
“THAT SAM I AM, THAT SAM I AM, I DO NOT LIKE THAT SAM I AM. So, having dictated to God’s prophet and sought to do him harm, you are now in a fatal situation and hate yourselves (in your soul, if not in your present ego). So, what does God do? He offers you the lower law, his lower face of death, or three gates of the lower face, you having reject him and his higher law, his prophet, his earthly representation, the higher face of life. Says the Lord: “DO YOU LIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM.” In the correspondences of the Tree, “Green” is Netzach or Victorious Envy, “Eggs” is Yesod or your seed and all that you produce, and “Ham” is Hod or all your learning and theory, literally Heh-I-Am (odd). In summary, you now are:

1. “Green” with envy, 2. Have “Egg” on your ‘face’, and 3. like “Ham” who was cursed for uncovering the holy father(s) private affairs. The world will soon be heart-sickened to discover that the patriarchs that they have cursed are the very arch-angels, the highest authorities in heaven. Here are those heads of the seven churches, or dispensations:

1. That “fallen god” ADAM is the Archangel Michael (Miykael: “SAM-E or Like God”).
2. That “drunken man” NOAH is the Archangel Gabriel (Gabriyel: “Man of God”).
3. That “polygamist” ABRAHAM is the Archangel Raphael (“God has cured”).
4. That “trouble-maker” MOSES is the Archangel Haniel (Chinniyel: “Favor of God”).
5. That “devil and imposter” JESUS is the Archangel Sandalphon (Ceneh and Pen: “Thorny path or street”).
6. That “Mormon boy rascal” JOSEPH is the Archangel Ratziel (“Remnant of God”).
7. That “sissy” Enoch (who runs and hides) is the Archangel Metatron, the head, which is Grace (Keter)

He and his Son YHVH now come down on Zayin. Thus Zion, and the world ends up with nothing but GREEN EGGS and HAM. But that is just the beginning of their misery, for God taunts you (like someone on the street). In asking you what you want, he is actually telling you the curse that you have brought upon yourselves:



“DO YOULIKE GREEN EGGS AND HAM. . . I DO NOT LIKE THEM SAM I AM. . . (too bad): WOULD YOU LIKE THEM HERE, OR THERE. . .WOULD YOU LIKE THEM IN A HOUSE…MOUSE…BOX…FOX:
Again, he’s taunting you about your choice of the lower face: House is Netzach (victory and action against you), Mouse is Hod (the entanglements of your minds), Box is Yesod (the destruction of your seed), and Fox is Malkhut (the battle against principalities and powers and kingdoms, dispatching them to Sheoul or Hell).

This is where the mystery and the true disclosure of your fate begins:

HOUSE is Bayith: Family Court, Dungeon, or Palace. Borboros: Mud, Mire, North Wind.
Kilab: Shank, Restraint of the fathers, desolation. Odunae: Torment. Oikema: Prison

MOUSE is Mus, Maze, Akbar: Attack, Entaglement or your minds, as in a mouse maze.

BOX is Peluggah: Division, Cleaver, Torch, Earthquake (cutting asunder both joint and marrow, all that you produced). Teashshuwr: Box, coffin. Owphiyr: O fear, Orphan.

FOX is Shuwal: Howling (like a fox), Sheoul: Hell. However, in his infinite love, he offers you a final out
Achad: Collect, one and eleven, to unify your all with the prophet, go one way or the other. Your choice.
Alopex: Fox to perplex (all-pex), Cunning person, the Devil is come down to do his final works of destruction, and it will be far more than just terrorism.

There is a lot more in this tale, as you can see: WOULD YOU LIKE THEM (green eggs and ham) IN A CAR. . .
IN A TREE, IN A TRAIN, IN THE DARK, IN THE RAIN, WITH A GOAT, ON A BOAT. . .

TRY THEM, TRY THEM, AND YOU MAY, TRY THEM, AND YOU MAY, I SAY (taunting you to no end).
What God is saying here in gentle, playful, and fatherly tones, is that you WILL, having made that choice, and the only out now is a radical reversal of that choice). This is where it really gets interesting.

I may continue at a later date, and give you the real mysteries, or I may not, for the mysteries are endless. More likely, I will just restrain myself, just as you have been asking me to do. Therefore, “HOW WOULD YOU LIKE THEM?”
The end now comes to you in many heart-wrenching forms.

Stinger said...

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid."
- Soren Aabye Kierkegaard (1813-1855)

Stinger said...

Now what have I done? streety was already messed up with out me adding to his stock pile of crap that he can spout.

rayj said...

street: please do not!

Anonymous said...

To Stinger, Atar_i, GBNF, Mugwum, rayj, etal:
Have you not noticed that comments about or resposes to Onthestreet just prompt more bad behavior on his part? I believe we would be better off if everyone just ignores him. Don't direct any comments his way. Don't answer any of his.

Now that I've got that off my chest, I'll take my own advice and not mention it again.

Thank you. I'll go back to lurking now.

onthestreet said...

Speech is thought manifest, and sometimes with a stinger!

onthestreet said...

Winston Blackmore changes marriage by appointment (From his North Star Blog:

1. then go find someone to marry. . .
2. Don’t compromise yourself morally. That is not the way to find what you want.

STREET's Reply: The two are opposites. In the Way of the Lord, the very act of "going to find someone to marry" is compromising yourself morally. And Winston is right in saying: "That is not the Way. . ."

Now, we're not talking about the world's way. That is the only way to them. We're talking about a marriage that you want to be appointed of God, not of our own doing. That is the Lord's tradition

GBNF said...

Street Fruit,
Tell me oh wise one, when did placement marriage begin again? I don't remember God requiring it. Now...when did it start and why? Maybe it was in the early years of Short Creek and to keep outside men out of the wife pen, and to make sure that old men got young wives? Sounds like your exaltation really depends of whether some so called prophet tells you whom you can reproduce with.
Get real!

GBNF said...

To 5/29/2005 12:39 AM,
Why do you think it is necessary to continually post the exact same message? Your point it taken, not all of us are lurkers.

Anonymous said...

Street! Winston was also right in saying over on his blog that the idea that the prophet was doing all the placing was more pretended than real.

onthestreet said...

GBNF said... Street Fruit,
Tell me oh wise one, when did placement marriage begin again? I don't remember God requiring it. Now...when did it start and why? Maybe it was in the early years of Short Creek

STREET's Reply: Let's see, try the Garden of Eden, for where you find the beginning of the Gospel on this earth, you'll find placement marriage. Let's start at the very beginning, a very good place to start. . .

"And the Lord made the woman, and brought her to the man."(Gen. 2:22)

"And God COMMANDED Noah to take two and two, male and female, into the ark."

"And Abraham commanded his servant: Take a wife unto my son Isaac." (Gen. 24:4).

And Moses, and Jesus, and all the prophets "followed the same plan, and did AS THE LORD commanded.

And Jesus had many women fondling him as his wives, and Jesus said: "Father, THY WILL be done."

The TRUE Gospel is the same as from the beginning, and continues forever, "but few there be that find it."

onthestreet said...

There you go, "O WISE ONE"

Anonymous said...

WHERE does it say that Jesus had many women FONDLING him?

And God does command men to get married, but he doesn't specify to WHOM. He said "Take A (singular, non-specific) wife unto my son. . " Not take THIS wife. Street, you are SO screwed up, I don't think you'll ever get unscrewed in this life or the life to come.

onthestreet said...

Read the good book. I'm not all scripture. You credit me for more than I am.

How he was fondled with fondness, and how you are fondled, are probably entirely different. But do you like fondue? Try some, if you may!

He had Mary and Martha at home (how domestic can you get), and counseling them on getting along within the family (how husbandly can you get)? He had women's hair all over him, even washing him with it. How loving, how wifely, can a woman be. And old Jewish manuscripts and Roman Senate documents describe clearing his married life. I've seen it. Have you?

Yes, take a (singular) wife here, and again, and again. Does he not say, "multiply and replenish and fill the whole earth"? And did he not bring A SPECIFIC woman to be PLACED beside Adam? There's marriage by placement, from the very beginning.

I certainly hope I am screwed (as you put it)in the right place, bound on earth and in heaven, and never unscrewed from that. Where does that put you?