When you read Leviticus 18, how do you justify your marriage to your mothers, and to sisters, and to neighbors wives and etc, based on these passages?
Perhpas Antique or Winston can help me out if warren is unwilling, what does he teach on this passage - how might he explain all of his unions.
For instance, homosexuals who believe in the Bible have stated that Leviticus 18 is ambiguous,
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
and could mean any of the things below
 | All homosexual behavior, by either men or women, or |
| All sexual behavior between two men, or |
| Only anal sex between two men, or |
| Only anal sex in a Pagan temple ritual, or |
| Sexual activity between two men in a woman's bed? |
Another argument by this group is that this law only applies to ancient israelites, or that it applies to only priests, or only applies to certain acts....and the list goes on.
Any argument to make it NOT say - what it actually says.
62 comments:
Lot's daughters seduced their old man.. guess that was ok too??
The bible is full of sex, an entire website is devoted to it. Leviticus 18 is just another way for the right wingers to bash gays and Mormons. Most of it is crap.
Sex from A-Z in the bible:
http://www.hobrad.com/and.htm
"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."
Is it ok for “womankind lie with womankind" ? Since everyone takes things SO literally, this omission must be divine and that must make it ok to be a lesbian.
OK - I'm getting responses - this is good.
I would like to steer the converstaion in a different direction.
If you believe the Bible to be the word of God, and inspired by God. How do you 'have sex with your sister, mother, wifes sister' and say it's ok - and that the Bible didn't really mean that.
For instance - the Bible also states, thou shalt not lie. Well, I do that, I know it, it's a sin and I have to ask forgiveness for it. Despite all my best intentions, I cannot be perfect (and I really don't want to go into a conversation about grace and forgiveness here either).
So, I recognize I do something that God commands me not to. I could rationalize my lies, or state perhaps that lying is just a commandment for ancient Israel, but I don't.
How does warren deal with these scriptures?
"Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch." This wife is a mystery woman, since at the time of Cain's birth the whole world's population totaled only three (being, of course, Cain and his parents Adam and Eve). Remarkable also is Cain's founding of a city, which implies a considerable number of inhabitants.
The best explanation for such a population explosion from one created couple is the obvious one: inbreeding was originally extensive, indeed unavoidable. Thus Cain in the pseudepigraphical book of Jubilees marries his sister Awan (Adam and Eve's second child, says Jubilees, before Abel), and all the other descendants of Adam, from Seth to Noah, marry sisters or cousins. (Gen. 4:1-17; Jub. 4:9-28)
Not quiet a mystery , Adam and Eve were considered a myth by ancient Hebrews also. Not to be read as fact.
Eve is not even Adam's first wife. His first wife is Lilith, who leaves him because during sexual intercourse Adam won't let her be on top
According to Hebrew legend, the first woman God created as a companion for the first man Adam was a strong-willed lady named Lilith. As both had been created from dust, Lilith considered herself equal to Adam. (They differed anatomically, of course, with the Bible referring to a male as one who "pisseth against the wall" [1 Sam. 25:34; 1 Kings 14:10; 21:21].) Lilith objected to having to lie beneath Adam during sexual intercourse, but Adam would have it no other way. Lilith up and left him, winding up in rabbinic tradition as a baby-killing demoness who seduces sleeping men. Lilith is mentioned in Isa. 34:14, though the KJV renders Lilith as "screech owl." This first wife of Adam may safely be called the world's first uppity woman.
This woman and her decedents created the city of Cain. This would also circumvent the inbreeding stuff, but it generally ticks many literal biblical scholars.
Why are we worried about Leviticus--probably the most pointed scripture is 1st Corinthians, chapter 5. Here is lists marrying your father's wives as a sin "not even so much as named among the Gentiles", yet Warren has done this.
Atar;You dont seem to understand.No
scripture,Christian,Mormon,or any
other religion,condones or explains Warren Jeffs or his behavior.Try reading Mein Kampf.Or some the books about the Mafia.You will get a better picture of Warrens mindset.
Sixteenth Son.
To 3:33
DITTO
Where does it say that at the time of Cain's birth there were only three people?
You people are wierd.
REALLY wierd.
LOL - I am totally enjoying this thread. I will admit that I actually began this thread - with the *really long* part on the front page, because I was sick of seeing OTS's thread at the top.
Anyhow - Lilith - that's a trip man - I don't buy it, but it's an interesting theory. And yeah there might have only been a few to begin with - I don't actually know if God created more after 'the fall', I'll be curious to find out (once I get to heaven) - could have gone either way.
To 6:01
Do the math. Where does it say about a lot of things that defy reason...? Genesis is such a farce that is real close to the Iliad and Odyssey. Even the ancient Hebrews viewed the story of Adam and Eve as “just a story”.
What does any of this crap have to do with the cult in Eldorado? This is just "he said , she said stuff".
I didn't realize you were a hebrew scholar OTS - The version of the Bible I used was not King James (a victorian language that said 'don't uncover the nakedness). The meaning in Hebrew was the same - you can say it 'don't lie with', 'don't have sex with', 'don't have intercourse with'.
The NIV is a translation made by more than one hundred scholars working from the best available Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts. The translation of each book was assigned to a team of scholars and the work was thoroughly reviewed and revised at various stages by three separate committees.
It's ok if you want to pretend - I heard of an uneducated young guy who translated gold tablets without even looking at them. Just sitting at the dinnter table with his head in his hat and peering through a stone. Perhaps you have a different way of translating than we do, but I prefer the first method.
I see now. Warren Jeffs is a lier. I will not defend him.
Case Closed - lets move on...
I didn't care much for the New Living
Bible. It seems like they took a lot of liberties with what the authors "meant to say".
But I kind of like to compare the NIV. For the most part, I think they have done a fairly good job of not changing the gramatical intent; and still adding some contemporay insight into the hebrew terminology, and cross refrenceing a few of the other original sources.
rock on stinger!!!!!
Jerimiah 23:30-32
30 "Therefore," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me.
31 Yes," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, 'The LORD declares.'
32 Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams," declares the LORD. "They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least," declares the LORD.
I wish everyone would quit the Biblical quote crap - it is un-ending and unconvincing for either side. You might as well have an audience of Moslems. No minds are changed. It is more divisiveness in the Christian world over semantics.
A constant stream of scripture would be irritating in this context,(moreso if it was thousands of words long, written in all caps, spelled horridly and had no paragraphs) however, I don't do that.
Occasionally however I find that 'the Word' spoken without my feable interpretations - is more powerful.
An honest, intelligent, conversation which takes into consideration the individual beliefs of those contributing to the discourse helps all those who are actively participating understand the perspective of the other.
I can NOT leave scripture aside in this conversation, any more than Robin Williams could leave humor aside if he were discussing his acting career - it just comes up.
So stop whining.
You sound like Jerry Falwell taking shots that the Pope or the Rabbinical college. N o points are made. Its just dogma taken to extremes to justify actions or believes. I do not see any difference in your ranting and Mugwumps. Both have a “holier than thou” air about it that is rather demeaning. We must first empathize and learn what our brothers are going through. NOT hit them with tyrannical lectures on biblical history whose library is a Google search engine. Where is the compassion? Where is the help? Where is the live and let live quality that should embody every soul?
This is my first post but I have read every thread and archives since I found this site. This is an AWESOME site with great intellects (OTS not so great). Although I found 5/29/2005 9:27 AM a little too scathing for my tastes, I am in concurrence with some of their points. As a “Free Mason”, I knew the word Cult being assigned to us long ago. I have seen the entire CBN devote 4 days and hours and hours of scripture devoted to calling us demons. Dan Brown’s “ Da Vinci Code”, did not help matters but there is much historical data (as related to the Masons only) that I have known for some 20 years. Attacks being made against Warren has evolved into attacks made against an entire relgion. People inherently fear and demonize anything secret. Please do not make demons out of something you do not agree with or do not understand.
Apologies if I sound holier than thou - I have never hoped to convey that, and have persistant in my efforts to underline how in need of grace I am.
I hope that I have been the first to state that while I cannot conceive of acting in certain ways - given a different set of circumstances I have always made allowanced that I could just as easily act just like that.
As far as helping, about a month ago, I emailed every legislator from UTAH and ARIZONA as well as President Bush. I went further, and contacted many local relief organizations and expressed my willingness to do anything - should they need help.
I'm not certain - other than being informed - that I can do any more at this time.
AND - since we are on the subject - I do believe thoughts, ideas etc can change. I agree that sermanizing gets old, but my participation in this board has led to a deeper understanding of the situation, and an empathy which initially I did not possess.
I'm not jumping into a celestial marriage - and I don't believe in the BOM, BUT - I respect the individuals who are trying to please God in the way that they have learned is the right way.
OTS is a nuisance at times, but he illustrates, more than any well thought out composed plea for help, exactly what sort of control is exerted over the minds of Warrens followers. His rantings and ravings, paint a picture of mental torment and abuse, more than any well reasoned response could.
The Word of God is powerful, and when sent out - does not come back void. While you may not be affected - someone else might - so have a little faith.
Lastly - I love google : )
To Atar_I:
I love Google too -- it is my library also. I am the Anon pain in your butt but I am not really against you. You do seem compassionate, unlike mugwump who forgets that Christ stood for "turn the other cheek", " love thine enemy" forgive as our debtors, ect. He is on a jihad. ( what is the difference between “Think not that I am come to send peace, but a sword” and Jihad). Where does this sword come in?
The idea of” live and let live" has brought untold misery upon the occupants of planet earth over eons of time””, is the biggest crock of crap that I have ever heard from anyone including Warren Jeffs. That is what diplomacy is about, other-wise we should nuke our enemy. Politics change. Britain once was our enemy now or strongest ally. Enemies become friends. Should we destroy all who do not believe as we do? Beliefs change, the world is no longer flat, and witches do not kill babies in their sleep and we do not burn anyone at the stake for hearing voices, and we don't use the bible to enslave people (all done by GOOD CHRISTIANS).
Peace Atar_i, and may the love of Christ be with you…
Hey anon - (tempted to make an indelicate crack, but I am biting my tongue and leaving the 'pain' issue now).
I didn't actually understand what you meant by 'live and let live' could you explain further.
It means one does not have to ridicule or destroy one's neighbor just because one does not agree or understand their culture or religion. It means that one does not have to constantly try to prove oneself right, by reading their religious interpretations and apply the interpretation to their fellow man of different faiths. Especially when they are in the same genre ( ie. Christianity). There are mountains of scriptures to justify why each believe as they do. Try to get the Church of Christ, Baptist, and Presbyterians to agree on Catholic Doctrine, much less Mormon doctrine. Its not going to happen; nor should it..
Peace atar_i
Thanks for explaining your meaning. I wasn't certain - but now I am.
Are you ex FLDS, I'm curious who you are - no names - just general.
No mam, actually I am a “Christian Scientist”. Another “cult” that gets hammered by people who do not understand what we believe. That is why I defend the mormons so much.
Excellent - I honestly have no idea what Christian Scientists believe - can you tell me what the main difference is.
Actually not the religion of Christian Science( not mine), but the science of religion and philosophy of scientology:
http://www.scientology.org/
Peace atar_i
Atar <----more confused than ever.
Why can't everybody just keep their hands in their OWN pants?
its against our religion
I pay taxes - about 50 kids per family (for multiple families) on food stamps is my business - I WORK I PAY TAXES, I PAY FOR MY AND MY CHILDRENS FOOD ALL BY MYSELF, AND MY AND MY CHILDRENS MEDICAL CARE ALL BY MYSELF - please tell me why I should support you too? I want those fathers to support their children.
You wanna have a celestial marriage - act like a celestial father!
Street - whats up?
sooner or later, ....you are.
NAME
To Mugwump: Were the French the ones that didn't buy the "weapons of mass destruction" crap like you did? I bet you think Warren has a secret A-Bomb for the end of the world synopsis. You know most of Utah and Mormon church are republican just like you? As a good "Christian" I think we should go and kill all the women and children in the compound. That's what we do when god is on our side isn't it?
Since when did more mean right?, AND actually Bush lost the first election by popularity, and would have lost this one had it not been for inventing a war that we do not need. Like the war I see coming with the FLDS that can be avoided if cooler heads prevail. Go on – admit it – you want to destroy these people for what? What did they ever do to you?
Polls are not so good now are they, neither is the deficit or the war or Texas education or anything else that was promised. What comes around goes around.
Okay, taht's enough of that crap. It wasn't Texas or Texans who stood by and did nothing for a century while vermin like Warren Jeffs made slaves out of decent hard-working folk. And it certainly wasn't the Texas Education Agency who let the school's in Short Creek get in the mess they are in. Try that crap in Texas and you'll find yourself on the inside of the Huntsville prison looking out.
Not get of the Republican, Democrat stuff. And you folks in Short Creek who are lashing out because your beloved PROFIT (yes I spelled it that way on purpose) finally is getting his comeupance, open your eyes and look around. You people have been duped for years.
Get a grip, people.
Sheeesh!
I must have struck a nerve. Isn't it amazing how you can tell so much about a person from their propaganda? I already figured that Mugwump was rightwing, conservative, republican, “holier than thou” moral minority (not a misprint). And I must have an ally because I only responded once. Leave these people alone. You find something legal to indict 10,000 people for their religious believes, throw away the constitution and replace it with the bible, or shut the hell up. Let Atar_i do your talking; now there is an intellect.
I wish to apologize if the above statement seemed sarcastic toward Atar_i. She has intellect worth sparring with; an admirable opponent, unlike Mugwump.
No problem - no offense taken. I like Muggy, be kind to him.
OK...
ya da ya da ya da
Go kill something; it will make you feel better. You may start with the beautiful children at the compound, and then you can work up to the evil women and men. I am sure they have offended you enough to take their lives also. Don't you just love being christ like, makes you all fuzzy doesn't it?
There are rumors of weapons at the compound, quick bomb them. If we don't find any, they needed blowing up anyway! Blame it on 911. The FLDS are terrorist! They believe in limited government, ultra-conservative and vote republican. One of them may have flow the airplane that hit the twin towers! Osama Bin Laden is actually hiding under the temple! Everyone get a bazooka, we will free these people and bring them around to our way of thinking if we have to kill them to do it!!
oh, sorry muggsy; we thought maybe you got your Rush Limbaugh e-mail mixed up with the blog post.
Hey dude,( anon 2:53) you hit another chord!
Bush could care less about the FLDS, he is too busy fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan, to worry about the Texas Taliban. Halliburton does not think the FLDS it is too important. That’s who makes policy in the US. Bush is just a patsy.
Muggy, you are such an easy target. You act like everyone in America thinks like you do. Not so, what you need to be aware of is there are just as many like me that delight in pushing the buttons of people like you. What is even more fun is that is it SO EASY!! I can’t wait till the Hispanics realize how much power they do have. I didn't even count the migrants and illegal immigrants that are sure to erk (good Texas word ) you. I think I am going to place Hilary bumper stickers on cars with republican stickers on them tonight... Tomorrow I will defend FLDS against you and the Limbaughs of the world..
Keep Sweet Muggy…
Oh Dude,
Start with my ministers car!
Touché!
An elephant was in a dark house: the Texas Polygamy Blog administrator brought it for exhibition. In order to see it, many people from the blog were going, every one, into that darkness. As seeing it with the eye was impossible, each was feeling in the dark with the palm of the hand.
Atars hand fell on it's trunk: she said "This creature is like a waterpipe." Stinger's hand touched it's ear: to him it appeared like a fan. Since OTS handled it's leg, he said "I found the elephant shape to be like a pillar." Mugwump laid his hand on the back : he said, "truly this elephant was like a throne."
Similarly, when anyone heard a description of the elephant, he understood it only in respect to the part he had touched.
Can someone please hit the lights?
Politics unlike the destruction of families is something we can agree to disagree with.
And then the lights went out.
The metaphor wasn't about disagreeing - it was about seeing something from someone elses perspective. We all view the same thing, but differently depending on the part of life we touch.
It means I'm not totally right - because I feel differently, and your not totally right, because you feel and know something different. It means perhaps we both have a little bit of truth, and making broad sweeping generalizations about how 'it really is' might be a little naive on either of our part.
Atar
How right you are. And as we learn more of the truth we can surely agree more with each other. The truth of what the elephant really was is a combination of all the ideas. If each was willing to keep an open mind consider what the others experienced they would eventually see the bigger picture (the whole truth).
Keep your wisdom coming. I really appreciate your input.
Your welcome, and I hope that I do not dissapoint by coloring out of control in Streets area - (figuratively) - apologies now to anyone (other than street) - for my indelicate remarks (I just can't help myself).
To Anonymous, at 6/1/2005 8:32 PM:
Please take it easy on Mugwump. Afterall he is handicapped by the fact that he not only has to read for himself, but he also has to think for himself.
Conisder for a moment how reasonable Muggy would sound if he lounged around all day and let the national intelligencia (a.k.a. media types, Hollywood types, tenured university professors) tell him what to think and how to act.
No, no -- let's not be so quick to condemn Muggy. He doesn't have the advantages we have. So he is forced to formulate his opinions with only his his faith in God and his belief in the Constitution to guide him.
Poor Muggy, if only we could make understand how unenlightened he is and how much better off things would be if he would just shut up and let us do his thinking for him.
Winston Churchill, Jr.
Anon 8:32 - I never could figure out Muggys point either. Just why is it not good to love thy neighbor? All I read was swords, Bush, political rhetoric and Bible jargon taken out of context. What was your point Muggy? I know the 2:53 dude was sarcastic but it is exactly what’s going on Iraq now. They just applied it to the FLDS in a comedic kind of way. Made a great point and cut you into at the same time. AND the dude only used 3or 4 sentences to do it. You wrote a book and never said anything but a campaign speech. What did all of this have to do with the FLDS or did you think you REALLY were on a Limbaugh thread.
Mugwump
exqueeze me?
We shall fight on Milligan Draw.
We shall fight on Rudd Road.
We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!
Winston Churchill, Jr.
Hey Dude Mag-something, You forgot about us Hispanics (Meskins to you)! We are demos and we will rule in about 10 years, maybe five! Republicans are not taking over, we are!! Sleep well knowing this, you know I am right!!
I would write something in Spanish but I never learned (wish I had - all my cousins do). I am an American. My father was a “wet-back”. I am college educated. I went to school on a Pell Grant. I am married to a gringo. I fought in Panama and we blew up a corner of a motel that Noriaga was supposed to be in. He wasn’t. Two janitors and some maids and a small child was. Guess they would rather be dead than free too? I do not think so. Wave your flag, I had to pick up the pieces. You and all the hawks that cry out for god and country never had to say “missed, I am sorry”. There are times to fight; Iraq is not one of them. Too many soldiers will be coming home saying “oops, missed, I am sorry”.
Hey Muggie, its me again and you are outnumbered at least on this site ( try Rush's site, you will feel more at home).
What "Live and let Live means":
The only justice of which I feel at present capable, is mercy and charity toward every one,--just so far as one and all permit me to exercise these sentiments toward them,--taking special care to mind my own business.
The falsehood, ingratitude, misjudgment, and sharp return of evil for good--yea, the real wrongs (if wrong can be real) which I have long endured at the hands of others--have most happily wrought out for me the law of loving mine enemies. Jesus said, "If ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them." Mary Baker Edie
Keep Sweet Muggy...
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