Thursday, May 26, 2005

Leviticus 18

I would like to hear from warren.

When you read Leviticus 18, how do you justify your marriage to your mothers, and to sisters, and to neighbors wives and etc, based on these passages?

Perhpas Antique or Winston can help me out if warren is unwilling, what does he teach on this passage - how might he explain all of his unions.

For instance, homosexuals who believe in the Bible have stated that Leviticus 18 is ambiguous,

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

and could mean any of the things below

bulletAll homosexual behavior, by either men or women, or
bulletAll sexual behavior between two men, or
bulletOnly anal sex between two men, or
bulletOnly anal sex in a Pagan temple ritual, or
bulletSexual activity between two men in a woman's bed?

Another argument by this group is that this law only applies to ancient israelites, or that it applies to only priests, or only applies to certain acts....and the list goes on.

Any argument to make it NOT say - what it actually says.

90 comments:

Anonymous said...

Lot's daughters seduced their old man.. guess that was ok too??

Anonymous said...

The bible is full of sex, an entire website is devoted to it. Leviticus 18 is just another way for the right wingers to bash gays and Mormons. Most of it is crap.

Sex from A-Z in the bible:

http://www.hobrad.com/and.htm

Anonymous said...

"Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination."

Is it ok for “womankind lie with womankind" ? Since everyone takes things SO literally, this omission must be divine and that must make it ok to be a lesbian.

ATAR_i said...

OK - I'm getting responses - this is good.

I would like to steer the converstaion in a different direction.

If you believe the Bible to be the word of God, and inspired by God. How do you 'have sex with your sister, mother, wifes sister' and say it's ok - and that the Bible didn't really mean that.

For instance - the Bible also states, thou shalt not lie. Well, I do that, I know it, it's a sin and I have to ask forgiveness for it. Despite all my best intentions, I cannot be perfect (and I really don't want to go into a conversation about grace and forgiveness here either).

So, I recognize I do something that God commands me not to. I could rationalize my lies, or state perhaps that lying is just a commandment for ancient Israel, but I don't.

How does warren deal with these scriptures?

Anonymous said...

"Cain knew his wife; and she conceived, and bare Enoch." This wife is a mystery woman, since at the time of Cain's birth the whole world's population totaled only three (being, of course, Cain and his parents Adam and Eve). Remarkable also is Cain's founding of a city, which implies a considerable number of inhabitants.
The best explanation for such a population explosion from one created couple is the obvious one: inbreeding was originally extensive, indeed unavoidable. Thus Cain in the pseudepigraphical book of Jubilees marries his sister Awan (Adam and Eve's second child, says Jubilees, before Abel), and all the other descendants of Adam, from Seth to Noah, marry sisters or cousins. (Gen. 4:1-17; Jub. 4:9-28)

Anonymous said...

Not quiet a mystery , Adam and Eve were considered a myth by ancient Hebrews also. Not to be read as fact.
Eve is not even Adam's first wife. His first wife is Lilith, who leaves him because during sexual intercourse Adam won't let her be on top

According to Hebrew legend, the first woman God created as a companion for the first man Adam was a strong-willed lady named Lilith. As both had been created from dust, Lilith considered herself equal to Adam. (They differed anatomically, of course, with the Bible referring to a male as one who "pisseth against the wall" [1 Sam. 25:34; 1 Kings 14:10; 21:21].) Lilith objected to having to lie beneath Adam during sexual intercourse, but Adam would have it no other way. Lilith up and left him, winding up in rabbinic tradition as a baby-killing demoness who seduces sleeping men. Lilith is mentioned in Isa. 34:14, though the KJV renders Lilith as "screech owl." This first wife of Adam may safely be called the world's first uppity woman.

This woman and her decedents created the city of Cain. This would also circumvent the inbreeding stuff, but it generally ticks many literal biblical scholars.

Anonymous said...

Why are we worried about Leviticus--probably the most pointed scripture is 1st Corinthians, chapter 5. Here is lists marrying your father's wives as a sin "not even so much as named among the Gentiles", yet Warren has done this.

Anonymous said...

Atar;You dont seem to understand.No
scripture,Christian,Mormon,or any
other religion,condones or explains Warren Jeffs or his behavior.Try reading Mein Kampf.Or some the books about the Mafia.You will get a better picture of Warrens mindset.
Sixteenth Son.

Anonymous said...

To 3:33
DITTO

Anonymous said...

Where does it say that at the time of Cain's birth there were only three people?

Anonymous said...

You people are wierd.

REALLY wierd.

ATAR_i said...

LOL - I am totally enjoying this thread. I will admit that I actually began this thread - with the *really long* part on the front page, because I was sick of seeing OTS's thread at the top.

Anyhow - Lilith - that's a trip man - I don't buy it, but it's an interesting theory. And yeah there might have only been a few to begin with - I don't actually know if God created more after 'the fall', I'll be curious to find out (once I get to heaven) - could have gone either way.

Anonymous said...

To 6:01

Do the math. Where does it say about a lot of things that defy reason...? Genesis is such a farce that is real close to the Iliad and Odyssey. Even the ancient Hebrews viewed the story of Adam and Eve as “just a story”.

What does any of this crap have to do with the cult in Eldorado? This is just "he said , she said stuff".

onthestreet said...

Ahh-Tar: Leviticus 18, excellent choice:

Verse 6: None shall approach kin “To uncover HIS nakedness.” See, the women are not to shame the prophet, for he is a prophet. That’s pretty simple language, so simple that even a child like me can understand it. Now, my little girl, let us continue your lesson:

Verse 7: Father, Mother, simply “do not uncover.” Is the taking care of your mother the same a stripping her. You are very gross. “Then Jesus said to his disciple: Behold your mother. And from that hour, that disciple took her to his own home.” (Jn. 19:27). Atar, or course, would have you all to believe that in doing so, he also stripped her. So gross, Atar, so gross. This sets the tone for every gross charge that you have made against descency, and shows its folly. “This people’s heart is waxed gross (Jesus Christ: Mt. 13:15).

For the sake of brevity, and not inundating Atar and the rest of you with too much embarrassment, I will close this lesson for now, so that you can muse over it, and maybe begin to realize what you do. Your souls are very young, so I forgive you for all that you say and do that is so nasty and vindictive. I feel at peace toward you. Maybe we can cover the other points later, but it’s all along the same line, showing that what the prophet does is what your Redeemer does.

Stinger said...

Street,
Beware lest you take your little game of spamming too far. Your identity is secret for only so long.

ATAR_i said...

I didn't realize you were a hebrew scholar OTS - The version of the Bible I used was not King James (a victorian language that said 'don't uncover the nakedness). The meaning in Hebrew was the same - you can say it 'don't lie with', 'don't have sex with', 'don't have intercourse with'.

The NIV is a translation made by more than one hundred scholars working from the best available Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek texts. The translation of each book was assigned to a team of scholars and the work was thoroughly reviewed and revised at various stages by three separate committees.

It's ok if you want to pretend - I heard of an uneducated young guy who translated gold tablets without even looking at them. Just sitting at the dinnter table with his head in his hat and peering through a stone. Perhaps you have a different way of translating than we do, but I prefer the first method.

onthestreet said...

I see now. Warren Jeffs is a lier. I will not defend him.

Anonymous said...

Case Closed - lets move on...

onthestreet said...

Ahhh, now you have to pose as Street to belittle the Prophet.

onthestreet said...

And now you compare me to members of the Godhead. My, what an honor!

onthestreet said...

Those crowds of educated (derelicts) is a democracy. One man with God is not only a majority (the ultimate democracy), but also a theocracy: Vox dei Vox populi.

onthestreet said...

"These crowds", of course, refers to the "100 scholars working with what they had", but what did they really have? The record shows that they had politics and special interests and another spirit other than the Spirit of God. The proplem is, "The things of God are only known by the Spirit of God."

onthestreet said...

WHY THEN ARE NEW TRANSLATIONS THOUGHT NECESSARY?
The question should be asked, "Why in 1881 (and even today) did we need a new Bible?" There are at least five reasons for this rational:

1. The many archaic words, the "eth's" as in doeth, knoweth, heareth etc., and the "thee's" and "thou's";

2. The existence of the many variant (different) readings in the extant Greek manuscripts;

3. The finding of a significant number of ancient Greek manuscripts of the Bible in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries older than those used by Erasmus and believed, by many scholars, to be closer to the text of the apostles' autographs;

4. Itching ears - winds of doctrine; and

5. Greed for Money.

We shall address each of these five, the first three being the so-called "justification" for the "need" to modernize and revise the King James Bible.

(1) Archaic Words


THIS IS THE SOURCE:
http://av1611.com/kjbp/articles/jones-whynew.html

Anonymous said...

I didn't care much for the New Living
Bible. It seems like they took a lot of liberties with what the authors "meant to say".

But I kind of like to compare the NIV. For the most part, I think they have done a fairly good job of not changing the gramatical intent; and still adding some contemporay insight into the hebrew terminology, and cross refrenceing a few of the other original sources.

Stinger said...

Streety, your latin quote is originally supposed to be Vox populi vox dei. The voice of the people is the voice of God.

Anonymous said...

rock on stinger!!!!!

onthestreet said...

Wrong. God's voice comes first, unless you're really strung out, Stringer. The world puts it as you do, BUT: "I am not of this world, nor the world in me, for they have rejected me." (Jesus Christ)

Is his word true? Is his voice first? Or is it all false, and dead last. No matter to him:
"I am the first and the last."

ATAR_i said...

Jerimiah 23:30-32

30 "Therefore," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who steal from one another words supposedly from me.

31 Yes," declares the LORD, "I am against the prophets who wag their own tongues and yet declare, 'The LORD declares.'

32 Indeed, I am against those who prophesy false dreams," declares the LORD. "They tell them and lead my people astray with their reckless lies, yet I did not send or appoint them. They do not benefit these people in the least," declares the LORD.

Anonymous said...

I wish everyone would quit the Biblical quote crap - it is un-ending and unconvincing for either side. You might as well have an audience of Moslems. No minds are changed. It is more divisiveness in the Christian world over semantics.

Stinger said...

Are you someone who found Atar's quote offensive? Throw a rock into a pack of dogs and the one that yipes is the one that got hit.

ATAR_i said...

A constant stream of scripture would be irritating in this context,(moreso if it was thousands of words long, written in all caps, spelled horridly and had no paragraphs) however, I don't do that.

Occasionally however I find that 'the Word' spoken without my feable interpretations - is more powerful.

An honest, intelligent, conversation which takes into consideration the individual beliefs of those contributing to the discourse helps all those who are actively participating understand the perspective of the other.

I can NOT leave scripture aside in this conversation, any more than Robin Williams could leave humor aside if he were discussing his acting career - it just comes up.

So stop whining.

Anonymous said...

You sound like Jerry Falwell taking shots that the Pope or the Rabbinical college. N o points are made. Its just dogma taken to extremes to justify actions or believes. I do not see any difference in your ranting and Mugwumps. Both have a “holier than thou” air about it that is rather demeaning. We must first empathize and learn what our brothers are going through. NOT hit them with tyrannical lectures on biblical history whose library is a Google search engine. Where is the compassion? Where is the help? Where is the live and let live quality that should embody every soul?

Anonymous said...

This is my first post but I have read every thread and archives since I found this site. This is an AWESOME site with great intellects (OTS not so great). Although I found 5/29/2005 9:27 AM a little too scathing for my tastes, I am in concurrence with some of their points. As a “Free Mason”, I knew the word Cult being assigned to us long ago. I have seen the entire CBN devote 4 days and hours and hours of scripture devoted to calling us demons. Dan Brown’s “ Da Vinci Code”, did not help matters but there is much historical data (as related to the Masons only) that I have known for some 20 years. Attacks being made against Warren has evolved into attacks made against an entire relgion. People inherently fear and demonize anything secret. Please do not make demons out of something you do not agree with or do not understand.

mugwump said...

Atar_i
5/28 5:49 & 10:27

Amen

Annon. 5/29 9:27 AM

See Matthew 10:34-35 (KJV)

Think not that I am come to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance aginst his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the dauther-in-law against her mother-in-law.

This statement continues through v. 39.

The idea of "live and let live" has brought untold misery upon the occupants of planet earth over eons of time. The idea sounds good but simply does not work. Survival of the fittest, whether the influence be for good or evil, over time, one will prevail. Then the cycle starts over again.

ATAR_i said...

Apologies if I sound holier than thou - I have never hoped to convey that, and have persistant in my efforts to underline how in need of grace I am.

I hope that I have been the first to state that while I cannot conceive of acting in certain ways - given a different set of circumstances I have always made allowanced that I could just as easily act just like that.

As far as helping, about a month ago, I emailed every legislator from UTAH and ARIZONA as well as President Bush. I went further, and contacted many local relief organizations and expressed my willingness to do anything - should they need help.

I'm not certain - other than being informed - that I can do any more at this time.

AND - since we are on the subject - I do believe thoughts, ideas etc can change. I agree that sermanizing gets old, but my participation in this board has led to a deeper understanding of the situation, and an empathy which initially I did not possess.

I'm not jumping into a celestial marriage - and I don't believe in the BOM, BUT - I respect the individuals who are trying to please God in the way that they have learned is the right way.

OTS is a nuisance at times, but he illustrates, more than any well thought out composed plea for help, exactly what sort of control is exerted over the minds of Warrens followers. His rantings and ravings, paint a picture of mental torment and abuse, more than any well reasoned response could.

The Word of God is powerful, and when sent out - does not come back void. While you may not be affected - someone else might - so have a little faith.

Lastly - I love google : )

Anonymous said...

To Atar_I:

I love Google too -- it is my library also. I am the Anon pain in your butt but I am not really against you. You do seem compassionate, unlike mugwump who forgets that Christ stood for "turn the other cheek", " love thine enemy" forgive as our debtors, ect. He is on a jihad. ( what is the difference between “Think not that I am come to send peace, but a sword” and Jihad). Where does this sword come in?

The idea of” live and let live" has brought untold misery upon the occupants of planet earth over eons of time””, is the biggest crock of crap that I have ever heard from anyone including Warren Jeffs. That is what diplomacy is about, other-wise we should nuke our enemy. Politics change. Britain once was our enemy now or strongest ally. Enemies become friends. Should we destroy all who do not believe as we do? Beliefs change, the world is no longer flat, and witches do not kill babies in their sleep and we do not burn anyone at the stake for hearing voices, and we don't use the bible to enslave people (all done by GOOD CHRISTIANS).

Peace Atar_i, and may the love of Christ be with you…

ATAR_i said...

Hey anon - (tempted to make an indelicate crack, but I am biting my tongue and leaving the 'pain' issue now).

I didn't actually understand what you meant by 'live and let live' could you explain further.

Anonymous said...

It means one does not have to ridicule or destroy one's neighbor just because one does not agree or understand their culture or religion. It means that one does not have to constantly try to prove oneself right, by reading their religious interpretations and apply the interpretation to their fellow man of different faiths. Especially when they are in the same genre ( ie. Christianity). There are mountains of scriptures to justify why each believe as they do. Try to get the Church of Christ, Baptist, and Presbyterians to agree on Catholic Doctrine, much less Mormon doctrine. Its not going to happen; nor should it..

Peace atar_i

ATAR_i said...

Thanks for explaining your meaning. I wasn't certain - but now I am.

Are you ex FLDS, I'm curious who you are - no names - just general.

Anonymous said...

No mam, actually I am a “Christian Scientist”. Another “cult” that gets hammered by people who do not understand what we believe. That is why I defend the mormons so much.

ATAR_i said...

Excellent - I honestly have no idea what Christian Scientists believe - can you tell me what the main difference is.

Anonymous said...

Actually not the religion of Christian Science( not mine), but the science of religion and philosophy of scientology:

http://www.scientology.org/

Peace atar_i

ATAR_i said...

Atar <----more confused than ever.

Anonymous said...

Why can't everybody just keep their hands in their OWN pants?

Anonymous said...

its against our religion

ATAR_i said...

I pay taxes - about 50 kids per family (for multiple families) on food stamps is my business - I WORK I PAY TAXES, I PAY FOR MY AND MY CHILDRENS FOOD ALL BY MYSELF, AND MY AND MY CHILDRENS MEDICAL CARE ALL BY MYSELF - please tell me why I should support you too? I want those fathers to support their children.

You wanna have a celestial marriage - act like a celestial father!

onthestreet said...

That last comment in bold: That's it in a nutshell. Well put.

ATAR_i said...

Street - whats up?

onthestreet said...

The heavens above, and what's coming down?

Anonymous said...

sooner or later, ....you are.

NAME

onthestreet said...

Yes, we all die, sooner or later. Well put. But if you destroy this house, in three days it can be raised up again.

mugwump said...

Boy did I get a rise for challenging "live & let live." A good example of the failure of your much vaunted diplomacy just occurred today in France. When given the option, the French people declined to endorse the E.U. constitution. For those who don't understand Texan, THE PRENCH PEOPLE declined to endorse the European Union Constitution.

I think the moto has been interpreted "Give and let's take!"

mugwump said...

Change spelling PRENCH TO FRENCH, just so we have no confusion.

Anonymous said...

To Mugwump: Were the French the ones that didn't buy the "weapons of mass destruction" crap like you did? I bet you think Warren has a secret A-Bomb for the end of the world synopsis. You know most of Utah and Mormon church are republican just like you? As a good "Christian" I think we should go and kill all the women and children in the compound. That's what we do when god is on our side isn't it?

mugwump said...

If I remember right, in 2004 there were considerably more red staates than blue (should be green with envy) states. Who has control of the House, Senate and the White House?

We Republicans had to eat crow and hear "Hoover" started the depression until Eisenhower was elected in 1952.

Fess up!! YOU GOT BEAT AT THE POLLS.

Anonymous said...

Since when did more mean right?, AND actually Bush lost the first election by popularity, and would have lost this one had it not been for inventing a war that we do not need. Like the war I see coming with the FLDS that can be avoided if cooler heads prevail. Go on – admit it – you want to destroy these people for what? What did they ever do to you?

Anonymous said...

Polls are not so good now are they, neither is the deficit or the war or Texas education or anything else that was promised. What comes around goes around.

Anonymous said...

Okay, taht's enough of that crap. It wasn't Texas or Texans who stood by and did nothing for a century while vermin like Warren Jeffs made slaves out of decent hard-working folk. And it certainly wasn't the Texas Education Agency who let the school's in Short Creek get in the mess they are in. Try that crap in Texas and you'll find yourself on the inside of the Huntsville prison looking out.

Not get of the Republican, Democrat stuff. And you folks in Short Creek who are lashing out because your beloved PROFIT (yes I spelled it that way on purpose) finally is getting his comeupance, open your eyes and look around. You people have been duped for years.

Get a grip, people.
Sheeesh!

Anonymous said...

I must have struck a nerve. Isn't it amazing how you can tell so much about a person from their propaganda? I already figured that Mugwump was rightwing, conservative, republican, “holier than thou” moral minority (not a misprint). And I must have an ally because I only responded once. Leave these people alone. You find something legal to indict 10,000 people for their religious believes, throw away the constitution and replace it with the bible, or shut the hell up. Let Atar_i do your talking; now there is an intellect.

Anonymous said...

I wish to apologize if the above statement seemed sarcastic toward Atar_i. She has intellect worth sparring with; an admirable opponent, unlike Mugwump.

ATAR_i said...

No problem - no offense taken. I like Muggy, be kind to him.

Anonymous said...

OK...

mugwump said...

Did you ever consider the hijacked airliners, flying out of blue states, as wepons of mass destruction? 911 is why we are at war. That is a pretty simple statement, but true nevertheless. We got into this war as the result of a mealy-mouth Chamberlain type diplomacy led by Madeline Allbright & Co.

So what if Gore won the popular vote. In case you haven't read it, the Constitution of the United States of America states that the various states shall gather its Electors and the ELECTORS shall cast their votes for the office of President. Bush won the Electorial vote.

Don't you remember dimpled chads, hanging chads, the T.V. views of election judges looking at balots from every concievable perspective. There were counts, re-counts, re-re counts, the military votes weren't even counted, an announcment giving Gore the victory was made on T.V. prior to the polling places in Western Florida being closed. Western Florida is strongly Republican, but vote in the Central Time zone. Despite all this confusion, Bush still won the electorial vote in Florida.

You don't like the Constitution, get it ammended, change it. It's a somewhat flexible document. It's short and to the point. It even gives you instructions as how to accomplish change.

Personally I was really glad to see Clinton's posterior leave the White House. He developed many international crisis in an effort to draw attention away from his fumbling, bumbling attempts to be President, his immoral behavior and the ineptness of his administration have repeatedly presented theselves to history.

His taxpayer funded trips to everywhere on the globe really accomplished very little except to allow his family to enjoy extended holidays at tax-payer expense. To do what? What did he accomplish.

The vaunted budget surplus at Clinton's mid-term was brought about through the efforts of Newt Gingrich and a Republican Congress's Contract with America.

Congress finally passed a bill that will allow drilling in the Artic Wildlife Reserve. It will take some time for the fuel to come on line. Until we are independent of mid-eastern oil production we can expect high oil prices. I was an observer during the fight for drilling permit at Prudhoe Bay and the building of the Alaskan pipeline.
Despite a strongly negative presss, Ralph Nadar's bunch, Sierra Club et. al., not a single leak has occurred. The caribou population has increased from 3000 to 30,000. Constuction of the pipeline was reported by the press as a threat that would wipe out all wildlife in Northern Alaska.

There are proven oil reserves off Cape Cod. (located just a little south-east of Boston, Mass.) These reserves are a lot closer to the blue states than the north slope of Alaska but, Ted Kennedy & Co. have so-far been able to hide this oil field potential becuse they didn't want that "oil field trash" (regular people doing a job, earning wages, paying taxes) living near his family coumpound. Those snobs don't want to have to smell those dirty old refineries or see those horrible drilling platforms off their pristine beach. If the price of gasoline goes to $10.00 a gallon it won't make any difference to them. Their trust funds will pay any price to assure their continual tirades in Washington. Their elitist agenda will continue unabated.

Demo's whining, getting their respective posteriors kicked out of office in 2000 was the direct result of Gore's idiotic campaign which never established an agenda, never gave the people an idea concerning where he stood on any issue of substance, talked about "lock boxes" on social-security funds. (THERE IS NO SOCIAL SECURITY FUND. S.S. HAS BEEN PAID OUT OF THE GENERAL REVENUE FOR SEVERAL YEARS.)

Bush presented a friendly, open, caring face, admitted to previous human errors and was found by the voters to be a better candidate. Certainly a more believable candidate.

Bush's efforts to fight a war against terrorism was long overdue. Saddam had murdered thousands of his own countrymen, had used chemical wepons in the crime. The information regarding W.M.D. was given to our intelligence agency by British sources who have historically proven to be superior in every way in the field of covert operations. Why shouldn't they be believed? The Oil for Food scandal has just begun to surface. What will be found there. Funding of bin Laden by Saddam has been established. One way to beat terrorism is to cut off it's source of money.

If one of your family had been in one of the Trade Center Towers on that fateful morning of 9/11 would you not have a different idea of what constituted mass murder, by a weapon of mass destruction?

I am right-wing in politics, a born-again Christian, I am a believer in limited goverment, I am a conserative and a I vote Republican. The voters and I joined together to take back, for the people, a government that was running pall-mall toward socialism since 1932.

I see no need to apologize to you or anyone else. Prove me wrong, if you can. I stand up, I tell you what I think and why. If you don't like it, so what? I never took a Dale Carnigie course.

I strongly suspect that you have no an agenda other than to criticise those who don't believe the your "live & let live" policies do anything, except set the world up for another armed confrontation.

Anonymous said...

ya da ya da ya da

Go kill something; it will make you feel better. You may start with the beautiful children at the compound, and then you can work up to the evil women and men. I am sure they have offended you enough to take their lives also. Don't you just love being christ like, makes you all fuzzy doesn't it?

Anonymous said...

There are rumors of weapons at the compound, quick bomb them. If we don't find any, they needed blowing up anyway! Blame it on 911. The FLDS are terrorist! They believe in limited government, ultra-conservative and vote republican. One of them may have flow the airplane that hit the twin towers! Osama Bin Laden is actually hiding under the temple! Everyone get a bazooka, we will free these people and bring them around to our way of thinking if we have to kill them to do it!!

mugwump said...

Anonymous 6/1/ 12:48 & 2:53

Wake up and read my blog. You can't make a rational argument aginst anything I posted. So you act like children and attempt to make fun of my position.

You try to make my conservative position a threat to the FLDS compound. Neither the FLDS or the compound were mentioned in the blog.

Children were not threatened, if they were I would be one of the first out there to try to defend them.

I most assuredly do not agree with Morman doctrine in any form, but I will defend their right to their opinion. Can you do the same?

Anonymous said...

oh, sorry muggsy; we thought maybe you got your Rush Limbaugh e-mail mixed up with the blog post.

Anonymous said...

Hey dude,( anon 2:53) you hit another chord!
Bush could care less about the FLDS, he is too busy fighting the Taliban in Afghanistan, to worry about the Texas Taliban. Halliburton does not think the FLDS it is too important. That’s who makes policy in the US. Bush is just a patsy.

mugwump said...

Anonymous 6:30 PM

I held these positions before Rush Limbaugh was born. Bewaree, there are millions more just like me!!!

Have fun.

Anonymous said...

Muggy, you are such an easy target. You act like everyone in America thinks like you do. Not so, what you need to be aware of is there are just as many like me that delight in pushing the buttons of people like you. What is even more fun is that is it SO EASY!! I can’t wait till the Hispanics realize how much power they do have. I didn't even count the migrants and illegal immigrants that are sure to erk (good Texas word ) you. I think I am going to place Hilary bumper stickers on cars with republican stickers on them tonight... Tomorrow I will defend FLDS against you and the Limbaughs of the world..

Keep Sweet Muggy…

Anonymous said...

Oh Dude,
Start with my ministers car!

Touché!

ATAR_i said...

An elephant was in a dark house: the Texas Polygamy Blog administrator brought it for exhibition. In order to see it, many people from the blog were going, every one, into that darkness. As seeing it with the eye was impossible, each was feeling in the dark with the palm of the hand.

Atars hand fell on it's trunk: she said "This creature is like a waterpipe." Stinger's hand touched it's ear: to him it appeared like a fan. Since OTS handled it's leg, he said "I found the elephant shape to be like a pillar." Mugwump laid his hand on the back : he said, "truly this elephant was like a throne."

Similarly, when anyone heard a description of the elephant, he understood it only in respect to the part he had touched.

Can someone please hit the lights?

fttc said...

Politics unlike the destruction of families is something we can agree to disagree with.

And then the lights went out.

ATAR_i said...

The metaphor wasn't about disagreeing - it was about seeing something from someone elses perspective. We all view the same thing, but differently depending on the part of life we touch.

It means I'm not totally right - because I feel differently, and your not totally right, because you feel and know something different. It means perhaps we both have a little bit of truth, and making broad sweeping generalizations about how 'it really is' might be a little naive on either of our part.

fttc said...

Atar

How right you are. And as we learn more of the truth we can surely agree more with each other. The truth of what the elephant really was is a combination of all the ideas. If each was willing to keep an open mind consider what the others experienced they would eventually see the bigger picture (the whole truth).

Keep your wisdom coming. I really appreciate your input.

ATAR_i said...

Your welcome, and I hope that I do not dissapoint by coloring out of control in Streets area - (figuratively) - apologies now to anyone (other than street) - for my indelicate remarks (I just can't help myself).

Anonymous said...

To Anonymous, at 6/1/2005 8:32 PM:
Please take it easy on Mugwump. Afterall he is handicapped by the fact that he not only has to read for himself, but he also has to think for himself.

Conisder for a moment how reasonable Muggy would sound if he lounged around all day and let the national intelligencia (a.k.a. media types, Hollywood types, tenured university professors) tell him what to think and how to act.

No, no -- let's not be so quick to condemn Muggy. He doesn't have the advantages we have. So he is forced to formulate his opinions with only his his faith in God and his belief in the Constitution to guide him.

Poor Muggy, if only we could make understand how unenlightened he is and how much better off things would be if he would just shut up and let us do his thinking for him.

Winston Churchill, Jr.

mugwump said...

Anonymous 6/1/ 8:32

I don't believe that Limbaugh needs any defense from me. He eats your lunch every day. Listen, I think 3 hrs. of EIB staring "Rush" would do wonders for your blood pressure.

All posters note: Anony 8:32 still skirts around any point I make. He just isn't able to sustain his position with an intelligent answer. The worn thin demo. mantra continues without any new ideas for 73 continuint years. Ho-Hum!

mugwump said...

Atar_i:

You have vision but, who set the curfew?

mugwump said...

Anonymous 6?2 12:09

You got it Winnie.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:32 - I never could figure out Muggys point either. Just why is it not good to love thy neighbor? All I read was swords, Bush, political rhetoric and Bible jargon taken out of context. What was your point Muggy? I know the 2:53 dude was sarcastic but it is exactly what’s going on Iraq now. They just applied it to the FLDS in a comedic kind of way. Made a great point and cut you into at the same time. AND the dude only used 3or 4 sentences to do it. You wrote a book and never said anything but a campaign speech. What did all of this have to do with the FLDS or did you think you REALLY were on a Limbaugh thread.

ATAR_i said...

Mugwump

exqueeze me?

mugwump said...

atar_i 6/1/05 9:47

re. last line.

curfew? or show's over?

ain't this fun?

mugwump said...

Anonymous 4:59

I re-read both the lengthy posts in question.

If the quote fom Matthew 10 was taken out of context read it yourself and share your opinion. I didn't use Google and I didn't offer commentary. The quote was taken directly from the King James Version of the Bible.

My point of both posts was to take exception with the utopian concept of "live and let live." I can't find that the idea is supported as even a remote provable, workable historic event. Continuing warfare seems to be one of the grave weaknesses of humanity.

Item by item, give me facts, not psyco-babble. This whole scenerio reminds me of Bill Oreiley's continuing effort to get Hillary Clinton to come on his show and engage in intelligent debate. I think the invitation remains open, if your interested you can call Bill and see. Personally, I think she is pertrfied at the prospect of facing any centerist or Republican talk show host. It won't happen.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As long as the FLDS operates within the laws of the U.S., Utah, Arizona, Texas, or wherever, they have nothing to fear. If Jeffs is found to not have been engaged in questionable spending of the "Fund", he will probably remain a free man. If however he chooses to pretend that his operation is above the law, he will lose. If he fails to appear in court, he loses by default. Either way, it's really the people who lose. Extremely sad situation.

I have stated before: I do not agree with any Mormon theology. That is my choice and right. The LDS or FLDS is free to disagree with me but, I will continue to state my convictions.

I attempted to answer your questions as to my motives. I apologize for the length of the reply, but not the content. Will you do the same? Honestly????

Incidently, at least 52% of my fellow Americans thought as I did this past November. With John Dean, Al Franken et.al leading the Demos......those percentages will increase. Shawn Hannity made a pretty good point today on his radio show when he said, as an aside, that he hoped Dean remained chairman of the DNC for a very long time. How many viewings of "Fahrenheit 911" did you waste your money watching?

Winston Churchill, Jr. said...

We shall fight on Milligan Draw.
We shall fight on Rudd Road.
We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!

Winston Churchill, Jr.

Anonymous said...

Hey Dude Mag-something, You forgot about us Hispanics (Meskins to you)! We are demos and we will rule in about 10 years, maybe five! Republicans are not taking over, we are!! Sleep well knowing this, you know I am right!!
I would write something in Spanish but I never learned (wish I had - all my cousins do). I am an American. My father was a “wet-back”. I am college educated. I went to school on a Pell Grant. I am married to a gringo. I fought in Panama and we blew up a corner of a motel that Noriaga was supposed to be in. He wasn’t. Two janitors and some maids and a small child was. Guess they would rather be dead than free too? I do not think so. Wave your flag, I had to pick up the pieces. You and all the hawks that cry out for god and country never had to say “missed, I am sorry”. There are times to fight; Iraq is not one of them. Too many soldiers will be coming home saying “oops, missed, I am sorry”.

Anonymous said...

Hey Muggie, its me again and you are outnumbered at least on this site ( try Rush's site, you will feel more at home).

What "Live and let Live means":

The only justice of which I feel at present capable, is mercy and charity toward every one,--just so far as one and all permit me to exercise these sentiments toward them,--taking special care to mind my own business.

The falsehood, ingratitude, misjudgment, and sharp return of evil for good--yea, the real wrongs (if wrong can be real) which I have long endured at the hands of others--have most happily wrought out for me the law of loving mine enemies. Jesus said, "If ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them." Mary Baker Edie

Keep Sweet Muggy...

mugwump said...

I can't believe that all my "admirers" missed the great opportunity to nail my hide to the wall. I mistakenly named John Dean as chairman of the DNC. With old "Deep Throat" just now reveling his identity and Woodwarrd trying to beat Felt's to press with a new book..... Oh well, we go from one vast right wing conspiracy to another. John Dean was Nixon's Whitehouse council and chief witness before congress. It was his testimony that ended with Nixon's resignation.

Howard Dean on the other hand has taken over the reigns of the vast Liberal press and is in the process of ensuring repeated Republican victories via his wacko attempts to raise money. He is far behind on current fund raising. Republicans usually outspend the democrats during a presidential election. In 2004, the reverse was true. When Michael Moore released his epic revised history lesson, when a billionaire is willing to fund a campaign to get GWB out of office, when Move On.org only appeals to leftists and far left activist gain the control of what used to be a centerist party what else can you expect. Kemp's heroism was debunked, White-water was never fully investigated. Numbers of mysterious deaths of Clinton aids who lost their lives because of Hillary's paranoia.

Like old Joe Friday said in every "Dragnet", "Just the facts mam."

I exercise my right of free speech. You may do the same.

The victims of FLDS leadership are the ones who will suffer for Jeffs demonic behavior.

We could argue until time is no more and probably would never gain total victory. I make a valid point, you counter, I counter, someone else counters. There has to be an object lesson here somewhere. For either of us to score the other has to have real knowledge of the source of the other's belief system in order to counter. I don't think that you have a clue as to what I'm talking about so, therfore let's consider this case closed.

mugwump said...

Anonymous 6/2/05 8:34 PM

Have you read my thread "HATE is a FOUR Letter Word"?

If you will read it, consider each idea expressed and I think that you will notice that I defended those of other races, colors or creeds. I have many Hispanic friends and cherish their trust and friendship.

I am glad that you were able to complete your college education. if you qualified for Pell grant, good for you!

Just check this out. How many Hispanic people have been elected to State-wide office with a government under Democrat control?

The new Attorney General of the U.S. is Hispainc. GWB recognizes the fact that ALL citizens need equal opportunity at good jobs, to enable all Americans with honor.

All over Texas a groundswell of Hispanic crossing over to the Republican party is astonishing. Generally, people of Hispanic heritage over time prove to hold fast to high moral character. You have a rich heritage, be proud of it.

Our Armed Services is filled with men and women of Hispanic heritage who have achieved high rank because of their devotion, honor and courage.

It's the devotion to responsibility, not the color of skin that drives success. And I, for one am extremely proud of you as Americans.

onthestreet said...

ADMIN:

I'm trying to create my own thread on my own, so I can edit my thread as needed. I emailed you about this over a week ago, but no response. So I posted my request on several threads. Still no response. Did you die, are you okay?

Now I know that you emailed me back, and this is what you said:

Date: Tue, 07 Jun 2005 09:11:03 -0500
From: "Texas Polygamy"
Contact Details
Subject: Re: STREET

Sorry, only admn...or users with admin authority can delete posts. There is no need to copy and paste old posts simply to keep them at the top. If they are old posts, let them cycle off to the archives.
Weblog Admin

ADMIN: I'm not trying to "keep posts on top. How vain is that? Just need to be able to edit my own thread, you see?

Now, I clicked on the red blog logo in the upper left corner of the blog page, and got the next page, but there was no green plus sign. So I need admin authority to edit my own thread, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE. How about it?

Hey, maybe you don't read all the threads, I don't know. Tell you what: I'll post this request on all the threads, so you'll see it.

Thank you Sir.
Street