FLDS Prophet Warren Jeffs may be serving life in prison, but his followers continue with their work on the YFZ Ranch near Eldorado, Texas where the group's white limestone Temple towers over the town they are building. Polygamy, the practice of plural marriage, appears to be alive and well in the Lone Star State, despite laws to the contrary.
Wednesday, November 05, 2008
Day one.
And so begins, the Obama-nation of desolation.
46 comments:
Anonymous
said...
Anyone know of a country that is NON socialist? Cause I would like to go there. America just voted for socialism by making Obama president.
Its a sad time in America History. I wasnt that thrilled with McCain either. But I certainly was not going to vote for socialism. There is NO such thing as everyone having the same. I hope everyone who voted for him know your taxes are going sky high. Take your money out of the bank, and get a safe in your house! Pay off your credit cards, start living a simplier life. You may survive that way!!
socialism isn't about everyone having the same amount of Everything, that's more like commmunism. it's completely different. it's not about giving your money to someone else, if you pay more taxes your healtcare and your schools will be better. just look at my socialist country. yeah, I bet you would hate to live in Sweden where your kids get to go to school and college for free and where dental care doesn't cost you Antyhing when you're under 19. yes, I can see why we're so horrible taking care of our own people. we pay 30% taxes of our wages. and I know that's a lot. but if they cut the taxes as our government want to we will be as greedy as you. because in the end you sound like you don't care about your country and fellow americans at all. and that's just wrong.
Once I worshipped you, and took what you taught into my heart and soul. You enamies came and bragged about destroying me. They said you would do a fine job of destroying, me for them. I smiled, because i thought they lied. You threw me away. I walked for you; too stupid to know that what they said was true. I loved you and gave all I had. They bragged some more, and you went away. You hated me too, then; because you lost and they won. oh, how there lie did grow. It grew until I wished I had never met you; because it was what you taught me that I loved; not your critazism, and hurt. How they did enjoy making fun of me, for you; why you glorified them. Now, I know the reason. The reason and how easy it was for your enamies to do just what they said; how delighted they were for you to destroy me. How easy for them to destroy me. I was a fool for loving. An idiot for thinking you would care. How stupid I was! How stupid I was! I would not exactly say I love you, and I would never say I hate you. I just wish I had no memory of you or them. For, you I thought better off. Them, I knew what they were.
How they must be smiling in there hearts; knowing it was so easy for them to do. With all the money and fancy lawyers and glory; with you all angry and me so hurt. Was't it so easy this fool that i was for loving again, thinking that you cared. Why you told me what to say, because you was bigger than me, and with so much power. How stupid I was for loving again; and when you held me down and I thought it was because you cared, I could not see your sword until it was too late. How stupid I was for loving a man again. How terrible and tragic it is to care and beleive some one esle would too. so much for dreams and things as such. Maybe one day you will want to know the truth. It is so tragic because I sat in your church and watched a man be defended against his wife, and when he was done winning his battle in court and had all the glory and his wife was gone, he left too. I wonder who would love who if there was no money. Is it that no one really cared and I lived in my tragic dream world for-ever thinking you would. Now you destroy my children too. I was so stupid, for loving again.......
noun 1. a political theory advocating state ownership of industry 2. an economic system based on state ownership of capital
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy. The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.
This is who our next president is. Im NOT for the government being in Charge of all industry, my money.
As far as I'm concerned we've been living in a socialist country since the federal reserve was born. They have just gotten more control since time has passed. It's all part of their plan. The new world order is coming. We already have the europian union, the african union, the western union, and the soon to be asian union. Then they will form what they have been planning for over 60 years:The New World Order. But prophecy says they won't make it. Jesus Christ will come in his glory and prevent satan's plan from happening:)
Well when faced with 2 bad choices, I'm glad Obama won.
Can you remember the last time that Republicans acted like conservatives? Anyone? It was when Bill Clinton was in office and they were acting like conservatives to be a pain in his ass. They pushed a balanced budget, welfare reform, etc.
What have republicans done in the last 8 years where they controll all branches of government? Has conservative principles been instituted? NO. All the republicans did was expand government the largest it's been since FDR with percription drug plan (pay off to big drug co's and buying elderly votes) and Homeland Security Dept., batter the constitution in the name of saftey, run up a massive bar tab, secure billions of dollars to the Military Industrial Complex, etc.
I don't think Obama can do worse and a nice little side benefit of him being in there is going to be that Republicans will start acting like Conservatives (NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE) just to be a pain in his ass.
"A Schleicher County grand jury today issued felony indictments against four defendants associated with the YFZ compound near Eldorado, Texas.”
“One of the defendants was indicted for conducting an unlawful marriage ceremony involving a minor, which is a third-degree felony. A second defendant was indicted on three counts of third-degree bigamy. The third defendant was indicted on four charges: first-degree felony bigamy, second-degree felony bigamy, third-degree felony bigamy, and tampering with physical evidence, a third-degree felony.”
“The fourth defendant, Warren Jeffs, was indicted on a first-degree felony count of aggravated sexual assault. Today’s sexual assault charge is in addition to Jeffs’ July 2008 indictment for sexually assaulting a child.”
“To date, 12 people associated with the polygamist compound in Eldorado have been indicted as part of the ongoing and continuing criminal investigation.”
“I want to thank the Texas Rangers, who are the leading this investigation, and the criminal investigators with the Office of the Attorney General, for their outstanding work on this case. For months, dedicated men and women from our Cyber Crimes, Fugitive and Special Investigations Units have literally been living in San Angelo, commuting home to their families on weekends. I also want to thank Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran for his assistance with this matter.”
“Today’s charges reflect a cooperative effort between the Texas Attorney General's Office, Texas Department of Public Safety, the Texas Rangers, 51st Judicial District Attorney Steve Lupton, and the United States Attorney for the Northern District of Texas, Richard B. Roper.”
“Because law enforcement authorities are still reviewing the arrest warrants issued today, further information about the indictments cannot be released at this time.”
I well understand that some people voted Republican and some voted Democrat. But could someone explain what "the Obama-nation of desolation" refers to, or means? Thanks!
Silver, I assume it means that Obama is going to mess up things even more than they already are. I don't believe that the President has that much power. Granted Bush has managed to create a mess with the military action in the Middle East, but he didn't do it alone. Nor is he responsible for the economic crisis -- that's been building since the Federal Reserve was formed. Personally, I think things will continue to slide, but I doubt it will be Obama's fault. I just think the man is certifiably crazy or incredibly stupid to even WANT the presidency right now. lol
silver, it's a bit of satire on Matt. 24:15. it's significance is based on the historical indications that overly centralized government,leads a nation to desolation. I thought it may be a bit amusing. :o
Consider this. Even though I was a McCain supporter, to the end, for the Polygamy crowd (I'm one of them) an "Obama Nation" holds out the promise of liberal judges, coast to coast, and liberal supreme court nominees.
Can legalize polygamy be far behind legalized "gay marriage?" I think not.
Well, uncaduff, that'll teach me to think I know something. Is it also a reference to the many "Obama is the Antichrist" accusations going around?
Pharisee, I seriously doubt that there will be legalized polygamy for quite some time, if ever. Personally, I think it would be nice if there could be a federal madate that marriage is a contract between consenting adults (with not limitation as to number or gender of adults) and focus on the whole teen pregnancy issue. I'd like to see teen pregnancy laws enforced, rather than being swept under the rugs by good ol' boys who believe as long as the girl says it's okay the law doesn't matter. (By the way, that's a dig on judges and prosecutors in my town, nothing to do with the FLDS.)
One thing I'd like to know, if we have any lawyers visiting, is if any woman has ever been prosecuted for polygamy or bigamy when leaving an abusive relationship. I've seen several comments that women stay in abusive relationships because polygamy is illegal, and that just makes no sense to me. HAVE they been prosecuted and I just don't know?
In 1879 a woman was convicted of Bigamy in New York and sentenced to One year in prison. http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=940CE4D8123EE63BBC4153DFB2668382669FDE&oref=slogin
The question though, is was she a polygamist and her husband well aware of her polygamy (since he would be a polygamist too) or was she a woman fraudulently married to two men? I suspect the latter. Since women aren't married to each other in a polygamist relationship I don't see how the women of the FLDS and the other groups could be bigamists.
Well, uncaduff, that'll teach me to think I know something. Is it also a reference to the many "Obama is the Antichrist" accusations going around? ----------------------------------- :) naw Rebecka, Obama isn't the Antichrist. in the 69 years I've been around, there has been an Antichrist come along every time a noted world figure irritated someone. Although I strongly disagree with Socialism,we have to realize that most of those who believe in it,really think it's a better system, that Capitalism gives too much power to a few people, and hence fosters abuse. what they don't realize is that socialism does the same thing, only on a much greater scale, and uses the resources of the public to do it. I suspect that Obma and co. really believe they are doing a good thing. Until the vast majority of the people learn the skills of personal freedom, some form of socialism will always be with us. :)
uncaduff, From a distance, the FLDS looks just like the most conservative form of socialism to me. So why do the faithful object to Democrats so much? (Here's hoping either the first statement will be corrected, or the second will be explained! Thanks, ever.)
Thanks LTG. Makes sense, and I don't know why I didn't think of it. But I think one has to really know the culture to understand the permutations, as obvious as it seems once it's explained. js
Silver, in order to answer your questions, we have to do a short analysis of so -called Mormon fundamentalism. I’ll use the FLDS, since that’s the faction that I’m most familiar with. The belief system centers around the concept of eternal polygenous marriage, for the purpose of begetting eternal souls through the intercourse of “Celestial“ beings. The nature of the system requires strong moral principals, to prevent adulterous liaisons from occurring . In this sense, the FLDS are very conservative, in maintaining these concepts. When the ideas of polygamy and the United Order were instigated by the early Mormons, they were anything but conservative to Victorian main stream America. So, the FLDS are conservative in relation to plural marriage and the united order, but to conservative Americans, these are not conservative ideas. Since the FLDS are conservative in relation to sexual morality, and the Democratic party is the liberal party, in America, which makes them more liberal in matters of morality and they have a strong leaning toward socialism, is where the disagreement arises. This is not confusing when you realize that national socialism detracts from the power they have in their own form of socialism.
You know, all this socialism crap is just that. I'm a Dem and I don't have a "strong leaning toward socialism."
I don't believe the government should be running business and the government should be controlling everything. I also don't know anyone who thinks that either.
Obama's biggest claim to socialism is health care and rolling back the Bush tax cuts... Yet everyone seems to forget this huge bailout approved by both sides and the nationalization of the banks by the Bush Admin.
And Frankly, I don't get how a bunch of Mormons who practice the Law of Consecration can call anyone a socialist...
As defined by the dictionary: Socialism-a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole. Sounds pretty much like the FLDS to me, except they forgot to put vesting the owership of women in their. Otherwise, quite the same.
You know, all this socialism crap is just that. I'm a Dem and I...... ------------------------------------ the FLDS man-on-the-street, don't consider himself a socialist either,but the "united order" is as socialist as can be. And 3:14,ownership of woman seems to be a part of the system. more so since Mr. Jeffs took control. of course community ownership is only an illusion. its the Priesthood that has ownership.
uncaduff, Thanks again for your helpful answer. I have no difficulty understanding why the FLDS would vote Republican, in an almost solid block I presume. In addition to the primary point they have in common-a concept of clearly defined sexual mores, there are many other points of commonality also, which there is probably not enough space here to list.However, I personally associate with both Democrats and Republicans, and one thing these 2 groups have in common is the abhorrence of each other's world view that they think they are _supposed _ to have. Each individual within a certain group takes on the burden of negatively dramatizing the other group's viewpoints because they think they are _supposed_ to do that, and they wouldn't be a good member of their own group if they sought to replace emotional disdain with a detailed understanding.
Also, I was really unprepared for what I saw when I read the documents in your brother's book. Some of the ideological planks are taken almost word for word out of the Communist Manifesto. This is a story with a lot of extremes.
One subject on which I have completely changed my mind since beginning readings concerns the children. They appear to me now as happy and well cared for. This was not the belief I held at first, but it is now.
Remember when obama made the statement, he would start withdrawing troops immediately?? Now he is saying 2011. Just wait folks, your going to see what you voted for.
Obama said nothing of 2011. The new U.S.-Iraq agreement allows American troops to remain in Iraq until 2012. That means Americans forces must be out Dec. 31, 2011. Timeline for withdrawal, signed by the Bush Admin that previously opposed such acts…
Obama has committed to remove U.S. troops in the first 16 months of his presidency. However he committed a small amount of troops to remain in Iraq for embassy protection and counter-terror.
In response to anonymous who posted on 11/18 at 12:25, the book you are asking about is _The Polygamists: A History of Colorado City, Arizona_, Benjamen Bistline.
This is a very substantial history, in case you are interested.
I hope I am not sending double posts to the blog owner. Everytime I click 'publish your commment' it appears that nothing has happened, so I reenter the information and send it again...
Unfortunately I must moderate comments on this blog because of an inconsiderate blogger who calls himself Onthestreet. Since I also have to make a living, I am not always able to immediately monitor all posts. Sorry for the delay.
Unca: When talking about party affiliation, I 'member Uncle R stating that he was a registered Socialist. He did talk about it over the pulpit a few times.
He was very conservative but believed in giving everything he had to anyone, not just those less fortunate. He and his family , Uncle E included, have given more sleflessly than anyone or family at CC. I'm talkin' real compasion, real giving, with no expectation of recompense; not just talk and prayer.
There isn't a political party charter that captures his true intent...giving all he had with no expectations.
Although times are-a-changin', most of the Crik is the same way; giving their all to their fellow Crikers, but at the same time, very conservative.
Anonymous posted 10:44 Are you NUTS!!! these people don't share! They don't own anything, and most of their money has always gone to the Prophet! Of course when ONE person is control of everything, he can sit back and say he is a socialist, lol
Been to the creek lately anonymous??? I have, Dead town! The houses of these poor people are falling apart. Several houses were started, and left without ever finishing. FLDS is in deep debt! Lawyere are Bleeding Flds of every dime they have. Because of the Twin Cities Power plant, Flds are million in debt, and in default.
Perhaps you should get your facts straight. 1. There is no such thing as everyone having the same. 2. As long as FLDS beleive in doing without essentials to live by giving every dime to a Prophet they will never be free.
He was very conservative but believed in giving everything he had to anyone, not just those less fortunate. He and his family , Uncle E included, have given more sleflessly than anyone or family at CC. I'm talkin' real compasion, real giving, with no expectation of recompense; not just talk and prayer. --------------- Does anyone other myself remember these things differently than LTG?
I have read through this entire blog spot and have learned quite a bit about Fundamentalist Mormon culture, history, belief, etc. Thank you. The comments show me how embraced in judgement so many of these bloggers are. No different than "gentiles" or anyone else in the world. There is no power in judgement. Obama is trying to restore values that have long been lost in this country. Everyone is entitled to their right of speech and opinion. I am saddened by the anger and bitterness that pours through this blog. I send love and light to all of us, whether it's understood or not. May we all live as one and have the same freedom and opportunities for all.
"Been to the creek lately anonymous??? I have, Dead town! The houses of these poor people are falling apart. Several houses were started, and left without ever finishing."
A lot of that has to do with the so called, self anointed "prophet", “foretelling” the end of the world, AKA the "end times" (more then once mind you). Because of this a lot of construction was halted in Hildale/Colorado City, and other FLDS towns.
Yet another reasons why people should wake up and smell the coffee.
Jennifer, Do you not realize that the more "free" services are not really free. They are paid by taxes on your wages and mine. Sweden might have free education through college and free health care, but the citizens pay about 50% of their wages in taxes. If you like that idea, then you will be deliriously happy with Obama's one term.
46 comments:
Anyone know of a country that is NON socialist? Cause I would like to go there. America just voted for socialism by making Obama president.
Its a sad time in America History. I wasnt that thrilled with McCain either. But I certainly was not going to vote for socialism. There is NO such thing as everyone having the same.
I hope everyone who voted for him know your taxes are going sky high. Take your money out of the bank, and get a safe in your house!
Pay off your credit cards, start living a simplier life. You may survive that way!!
oh ya, and go gas up before the price gets to $9.00 a gallon, cuz it,s on it,s way back up.
the sky if falling, the sky is falling.........geez
Not to mention the war.
socialism isn't about everyone having the same amount of Everything, that's more like commmunism. it's completely different.
it's not about giving your money to someone else, if you pay more taxes your healtcare and your schools will be better. just look at my socialist country. yeah, I bet you would hate to live in Sweden where your kids get to go to school and college for free and where dental care doesn't cost you Antyhing when you're under 19.
yes, I can see why we're so horrible taking care of our own people.
we pay 30% taxes of our wages. and I know that's a lot. but if they cut the taxes as our government want to we will be as greedy as you. because in the end you sound like you don't care about your country and fellow americans at all. and that's just wrong.
Are we better off with the Once-ler or the Lorax as president?
Once I worshipped you, and took what you taught into my heart and soul. You enamies came and bragged about destroying me. They said you would do a fine job of destroying, me for them. I smiled, because i thought they lied. You threw me away. I walked for you; too stupid to know that what they said was true. I loved you and gave all I had. They bragged some more, and you went away. You hated me too, then; because you lost and they won. oh, how there lie did grow. It grew until I wished I had never met you; because it was what you taught me that I loved; not your critazism, and hurt. How they did enjoy making fun of me, for you; why you glorified them. Now, I know the reason. The reason and how easy it was for your enamies to do just what they said; how delighted they were for you to destroy me. How easy for them to destroy me. I was a fool for loving. An idiot for thinking you would care. How stupid I was! How stupid I was! I would not exactly say I love you, and I would never say I hate you. I just wish I had no memory of you or them. For, you I thought better off. Them, I knew what they were.
How they must be smiling in there hearts; knowing it was so easy for them to do. With all the money and fancy lawyers and glory; with you all angry and me so hurt. Was't it so easy this fool that i was for loving again, thinking that you cared. Why you told me what to say, because you was bigger than me, and with so much power. How stupid I was for loving again; and when you held me down and I thought it was because you cared, I could not see your sword until it was too late. How stupid I was for loving a man again. How terrible and tragic it is to care and beleive some one esle would too. so much for dreams and things as such. Maybe one day you will want to know the truth. It is so tragic because I sat in your church and watched a man be defended against his wife, and when he was done winning his battle in court and had all the glory and his wife was gone, he left too. I wonder who would love who if there was no money. Is it that no one really cared and I lived in my tragic dream world for-ever thinking you would. Now you destroy my children too. I was so stupid, for loving again.......
These words posted by Anonymous sound like either Ruth or Laurene Cooke. So filled with pain at loss and tragedy.
socialism
noun
1. a political theory advocating state ownership of industry
2. an economic system based on state ownership of capital
Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.
The stage in Marxist-Leninist theory intermediate between capitalism and communism, in which collective ownership of the economy under the dictatorship of the proletariat has not yet been successfully achieved.
This is who our next president is. Im NOT for the government being in Charge of all industry, my money.
As far as I'm concerned we've been living in a socialist country since the federal reserve was born. They have just gotten more control since time has passed. It's all part of their plan. The new world order is coming. We already have the europian union, the african union, the western union, and the soon to be asian union. Then they will form what they have been planning for over 60 years:The New World Order. But prophecy says they won't make it. Jesus Christ will come in his glory and prevent satan's plan from happening:)
Well when faced with 2 bad choices, I'm glad Obama won.
Can you remember the last time that Republicans acted like conservatives? Anyone? It was when Bill Clinton was in office and they were acting like conservatives to be a pain in his ass. They pushed a balanced budget, welfare reform, etc.
What have republicans done in the last 8 years where they controll all branches of government? Has conservative principles been instituted? NO. All the republicans did was expand government the largest it's been since FDR with percription drug plan (pay off to big drug co's and buying elderly votes) and Homeland Security Dept., batter the constitution in the name of saftey, run up a massive bar tab, secure billions of dollars to the Military Industrial Complex, etc.
I don't think Obama can do worse and a nice little side benefit of him being in there is going to be that Republicans will start acting like Conservatives (NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE) just to be a pain in his ass.
Rant off...
PB
Statement By Texas Attorney General Greg Abbott
"A Schleicher County grand jury today issued felony indictments against four defendants associated with the YFZ compound near Eldorado, Texas.”
“One of the defendants was indicted for conducting an unlawful marriage ceremony involving a minor, which is a third-degree felony. A second defendant was indicted on three counts of third-degree bigamy. The third defendant was indicted on four charges: first-degree felony bigamy, second-degree felony bigamy, third-degree felony bigamy, and tampering with physical evidence, a third-degree felony.”
“The fourth defendant, Warren Jeffs, was indicted on a first-degree felony count of aggravated sexual assault. Today’s sexual assault charge is in addition to Jeffs’ July 2008 indictment for sexually assaulting a child.”
“To date, 12 people associated with the polygamist compound in Eldorado have been indicted as part of the ongoing and continuing criminal investigation.”
“I want to thank the Texas Rangers, who are the leading this investigation, and the criminal investigators with the Office of the Attorney General, for their outstanding work on this case. For months, dedicated men and women from our Cyber Crimes, Fugitive and Special Investigations Units have literally been living in San Angelo, commuting home to their families on weekends. I also want to thank Schleicher County Sheriff David Doran for his assistance with this matter.”
“Today’s charges reflect a cooperative effort between the Texas Attorney General's Office, Texas Department of Public Safety, the Texas Rangers, 51st Judicial District Attorney Steve Lupton, and the United States Attorney for the Northern District of Texas, Richard B. Roper.”
“Because law enforcement authorities are still reviewing the arrest warrants issued today, further information about the indictments cannot be released at this time.”
-30-
I well understand that some people voted Republican and some voted Democrat. But could someone explain what "the Obama-nation of desolation" refers to, or means? Thanks!
Silver, I assume it means that Obama is going to mess up things even more than they already are. I don't believe that the President has that much power. Granted Bush has managed to create a mess with the military action in the Middle East, but he didn't do it alone. Nor is he responsible for the economic crisis -- that's been building since the Federal Reserve was formed. Personally, I think things will continue to slide, but I doubt it will be Obama's fault. I just think the man is certifiably crazy or incredibly stupid to even WANT the presidency right now. lol
silver, it's a bit of satire on Matt. 24:15. it's significance is based on the historical indications that overly centralized government,leads a nation to desolation. I thought it may be a bit amusing. :o
The last 4yrs democrats ruled congress Anonymous! Both senate and the house. And look at our economy!!! They basically did squat.
uncaduff,
thanks, that explains it!
anonymous,
please describe what the Democrats should have done, instead of squat.
Consider this. Even though I was a McCain supporter, to the end, for the Polygamy crowd (I'm one of them) an "Obama Nation" holds out the promise of liberal judges, coast to coast, and liberal supreme court nominees.
Can legalize polygamy be far behind legalized "gay marriage?" I think not.
Well, uncaduff, that'll teach me to think I know something. Is it also a reference to the many "Obama is the Antichrist" accusations going around?
Pharisee, I seriously doubt that there will be legalized polygamy for quite some time, if ever. Personally, I think it would be nice if there could be a federal madate that marriage is a contract between consenting adults (with not limitation as to number or gender of adults) and focus on the whole teen pregnancy issue. I'd like to see teen pregnancy laws enforced, rather than being swept under the rugs by good ol' boys who believe as long as the girl says it's okay the law doesn't matter. (By the way, that's a dig on judges and prosecutors in my town, nothing to do with the FLDS.)
One thing I'd like to know, if we have any lawyers visiting, is if any woman has ever been prosecuted for polygamy or bigamy when leaving an abusive relationship. I've seen several comments that women stay in abusive relationships because polygamy is illegal, and that just makes no sense to me. HAVE they been prosecuted and I just don't know?
In 1879 a woman was convicted of Bigamy in New York and sentenced to One year in prison.
http://query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=940CE4D8123EE63BBC4153DFB2668382669FDE&oref=slogin
The question though, is was she a polygamist and her husband well aware of her polygamy (since he would be a polygamist too) or was she a woman fraudulently married to two men? I suspect the latter. Since women aren't married to each other in a polygamist relationship I don't see how the women of the FLDS and the other groups could be bigamists.
Rebeckah said...
Well, uncaduff, that'll teach me to think I know something. Is it also a reference to the many "Obama is the Antichrist" accusations going around?
-----------------------------------
:) naw Rebecka, Obama isn't the Antichrist. in the 69 years I've been around, there has been an Antichrist come along every time a noted world figure irritated someone.
Although I strongly disagree with Socialism,we have to realize that most of those who believe in it,really think it's a better system, that Capitalism gives too much power to a few people, and hence fosters abuse. what they don't realize is that socialism does the same thing, only on a much greater scale, and uses the resources of the public to do it. I suspect that Obma and co. really believe they are doing a good thing. Until the vast majority of the people learn the skills of personal freedom, some form of socialism will always be with us. :)
uncaduff,
From a distance, the FLDS looks just like the most conservative form of socialism to me. So why do the faithful object to Democrats so much? (Here's hoping either the first statement will be corrected, or the second will be explained! Thanks, ever.)
Thanks LTG. Makes sense, and I don't know why I didn't think of it. But I think one has to really know the culture to understand the permutations, as obvious as it seems once it's explained.
js
Silver, in order to answer your questions, we have to do a short analysis of so -called Mormon fundamentalism. I’ll use the FLDS, since that’s the faction that I’m most familiar with. The belief system centers around the concept of eternal polygenous marriage, for the purpose of begetting eternal souls through the intercourse of “Celestial“ beings. The nature of the system requires strong moral principals, to prevent adulterous liaisons from occurring . In this sense, the FLDS are very conservative, in maintaining these concepts. When the ideas of polygamy and the United Order were instigated by the early Mormons, they were anything but conservative to Victorian main stream America. So, the FLDS are conservative in relation to plural marriage and the united order, but to conservative Americans, these are not conservative ideas. Since the FLDS are conservative in relation to sexual morality, and the Democratic party is the liberal party, in America, which makes them more liberal in matters of morality and they have a strong leaning toward socialism, is where the disagreement arises. This is not confusing when you realize that national socialism detracts from the power they have in their own form of socialism.
You know, all this socialism crap is just that. I'm a Dem and I don't have a "strong leaning toward socialism."
I don't believe the government should be running business and the government should be controlling everything. I also don't know anyone who thinks that either.
Obama's biggest claim to socialism is health care and rolling back the Bush tax cuts... Yet everyone seems to forget this huge bailout approved by both sides and the nationalization of the banks by the Bush Admin.
And Frankly, I don't get how a bunch of Mormons who practice the Law of Consecration can call anyone a socialist...
As defined by the dictionary:
Socialism-a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.
Sounds pretty much like the FLDS to me, except they forgot to put vesting the owership of women in their. Otherwise, quite the same.
You know, all this socialism crap is just that. I'm a Dem and I......
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the FLDS man-on-the-street, don't consider himself a socialist either,but the "united order" is as socialist as can be. And 3:14,ownership of woman seems to be a part of the system. more so since Mr. Jeffs took control. of course community ownership is only an illusion. its the Priesthood that has ownership.
uncaduff,
Thanks again for your helpful answer. I have no difficulty understanding why the FLDS would vote Republican, in an almost solid block I presume. In addition to the primary point they have in common-a concept of clearly defined sexual mores, there are many other points of commonality also, which there is probably not enough space here to list.However, I personally associate with both Democrats and Republicans, and one thing these 2 groups have in common is the abhorrence of each other's world view that they think they are _supposed _ to have. Each individual within a certain group takes on the burden of negatively dramatizing the other group's viewpoints because they think they are _supposed_ to do that, and they wouldn't be a good member of their own group if they sought to replace emotional disdain with a detailed understanding.
Also, I was really unprepared for what I saw when I read the documents in your brother's book. Some of the ideological planks are taken almost word for word out of the Communist Manifesto. This is a story with a lot of extremes.
One subject on which I have completely changed my mind since beginning readings concerns the children. They appear to me now as happy and well cared for. This was not the belief I held at first, but it is now.
Uncaduff, what is "your brother's book" silver is talking about?
T
Remember when obama made the statement, he would start withdrawing troops immediately??
Now he is saying 2011. Just wait folks, your going to see what you voted for.
9:12
Obama said nothing of 2011. The new U.S.-Iraq agreement allows American troops to remain in Iraq until 2012. That means Americans forces must be out Dec. 31, 2011. Timeline for withdrawal, signed by the Bush Admin that previously opposed such acts…
Obama has committed to remove U.S. troops in the first 16 months of his presidency. However he committed a small amount of troops to remain in Iraq for embassy protection and counter-terror.
So yes, we are getting what we voted for.
In response to anonymous who posted on 11/18 at 12:25, the book you are asking about is _The Polygamists: A History of Colorado City, Arizona_, Benjamen Bistline.
This is a very substantial history, in case you are interested.
I hope I am not sending double posts to the blog owner. Everytime I click 'publish your commment' it appears that nothing has happened, so I reenter the information and send it again...
Silver,
Unfortunately I must moderate comments on this blog because of an inconsiderate blogger who calls himself Onthestreet. Since I also have to make a living, I am not always able to immediately monitor all posts. Sorry for the delay.
Weblog Admin
It will be an interesting 4 years for sure....
Angel
The next 4 years will be interesting.
Angel
Unca:
When talking about party affiliation, I 'member Uncle R stating that he was a registered Socialist. He did talk about it over the pulpit a few times.
He was very conservative but believed in giving everything he had to anyone, not just those less fortunate. He and his family , Uncle E included, have given more sleflessly than anyone or family at CC. I'm talkin' real compasion, real giving, with no expectation of recompense; not just talk and prayer.
There isn't a political party charter that captures his true intent...giving all he had with no expectations.
Although times are-a-changin', most of the Crik is the same way; giving their all to their fellow Crikers, but at the same time, very conservative.
LTG
Anonymous posted 10:44
Are you NUTS!!! these people don't share! They don't own anything, and most of their money has always gone to the Prophet! Of course when ONE person is control of everything, he can sit back and say he is a socialist, lol
Been to the creek lately anonymous??? I have, Dead town! The houses of these poor people are falling apart. Several houses were started, and left without ever finishing.
FLDS is in deep debt! Lawyere are Bleeding Flds of every dime they have. Because of the Twin Cities Power plant, Flds are million in debt, and in default.
Perhaps you should get your facts straight. 1. There is no such thing as everyone having the same.
2. As long as FLDS beleive in doing without essentials to live by giving every dime to a Prophet they will never be free.
He was very conservative but believed in giving everything he had to anyone, not just those less fortunate. He and his family , Uncle E included, have given more sleflessly than anyone or family at CC. I'm talkin' real compasion, real giving, with no expectation of recompense; not just talk and prayer.
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Does anyone other myself remember these things differently than LTG?
Oh come on now you people!! Who cares about politics? I'm lookin' for good old fashion Gossip.
Hey anonymous, I'm with ya, I love gossip, I'm a regular _People_ magazine reader. Have a happy Thanksgiving!
I have read through this entire blog spot and have learned quite a bit about Fundamentalist Mormon culture, history, belief, etc. Thank you. The comments show me how embraced in judgement so many of these bloggers are. No different than "gentiles" or anyone else in the world.
There is no power in judgement. Obama is trying to restore values that have long been lost in this country. Everyone is entitled to their right of speech and opinion. I am saddened by the anger and bitterness that pours through this blog. I send love and light to all of us, whether it's understood or not. May we all live as one and have the same freedom and opportunities for all.
Why make laws if there's no plan to enforce it?
"Been to the creek lately anonymous??? I have, Dead town! The houses of these poor people are falling apart. Several houses were started, and left without ever finishing."
A lot of that has to do with the so called, self anointed "prophet", “foretelling” the end of the world, AKA the "end times" (more then once mind you). Because of this a lot of construction was halted in Hildale/Colorado City, and other FLDS towns.
Yet another reasons why people should wake up and smell the coffee.
Jennifer,
Do you not realize that the more "free" services are not really free. They are paid by taxes on your wages and mine. Sweden might have free education through college and free health care, but the citizens pay about 50% of their wages in taxes. If you like that idea, then you will be deliriously happy with Obama's one term.
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