Friday, August 10, 2007

New Photos of FLDS in Eldorado

Lots of activity at FLDS in Eldorado, Texas! Looks like population has increased. New water well has been drilled. New attachment to a domicile has been added. Now it looks like a H house. A new church is almost finished in front of the temple. We were told that it would be the regular place of worship for FLDS in Eldorado and the temple is for special ceremonies and occasions. Another pad has been poured by front gate. New lines to fields have been trenched. Best of all, everyone was outside!! Lots of women and children in the gardens. Beautiful weather in west Texas. Photos are yours to enjoy....

179 comments:

Anonymous said...

Thanks Pilot, those are awesome.

Hydrolab

Anonymous said...

as a transferred texas i appreciate the chance to get info on these weirdos. i always felt that that texas was the place of strong women, in my case starting with a great great grandmother who came there in 1836 with 6 kids , had 6 more there on a homestead near beaumont.
these pitiful women , held captive by those dirty old men. i only hope somehow the state can come up with some way to save the children.

Anonymous said...

Anon 5:55
They arent held captive! They are just taught that they are the only true people of God. They dont have to stay where they are. They choose to. They are true believers of Warren so its not like they dont have a choice, trust me if they didnt believe in him they would be kicked out.

Anonymous said...

Pilot,
Your camera does a good job but I wish we could see faces better so we could know who people are. But thanks for the pictures they are interesting to look at.

Anonymous said...

Pilot,
Great pics, very intersting...

I was wondering if anyone on this blog knows where Austin Knudson is or at least how he's doing? He's about 26 years old, and has at least one wife and one child...

Thanks for any info!

friend of austin said...

I asked you before what do you want
with Austin Knudson?He is doing fine.His family is fine as well.

Anonymous said...

To friend of Austin...
I'm sorry I missed your previous post. I was having a little trouble navigating this blog page...
Is there a way I can email you? I'm hesitant to put my information on a public page, but I would be delighted to talk to someone who knows Austin. This is very exciting for me!
I'm very glad to hear that Austin is doing well. I have not talked to him in about 7 years and we used to be very close. I would really like to talk to you via email if that's an option.
Thanks!

Anonymous said...

Great photos pilot! Thanks so much for sharing them with us.

And now Warren can see what he's missing out on.

fttc said...

Anon and Friend of Austin

I knew Austin as well and was close to him at one time.

If you would like you can both email me at fttcrack@hotmail.com and I will get you together without any questions asked. Admin would probably do the same.

Anonymous said...

annon 5.55

your ignorance is that of a do gooder who fast becomes a despotic dictator.

Why dont you get to know the people before making such broad condemnation of them.

The likes of you had John the Baptist beheaded.

Anonymous said...

I would say the threat of losing your family is captivity.

Anonymous said...

I agree. It is so wrong for someone to decide that families cant see each other. It makes me sick. Warren is a creep!!!!!

Anonymous said...

John the Baptist lost his head because he condemn the adulterous relationship of King Herod and his brother's wife Herodias.

Sound familiar, a practice of the FLDS.

Anonymous 12:38 a.m. your ignorance is that of a do gooder who fast becomes a despotic dictator.

Matthew
14:3 For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife.

14:4 For John said unto him, It is not lawful for thee to have her.

14:5 And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet.

14:6 But when Herod’s birthday came, the daughter of Herodias danced in the midst, and pleased Herod.

14:7 Whereupon he promised with an oath to give her whatsoever she should ask.

14:8 And she, being put forward by her mother, saith, Give me here on a platter the head of John the Baptist.

14:9 And the king was grieved; but for the sake of his oaths, and of them that sat at meat with him, he commanded it to be given;

14:10 and he sent and beheaded John in the prison.

14:11 And his head was brought on a platter, and given to the damsel: and she brought it to her mother

fttc said...

Anon 8:24

Are you referring to the beheading as a practice of the FLDS or the condemning? I can take it either way. Of course the beheading is not in the literal sense but the results are literally the same. On the other hand the condemnation takes place on the surface. If you have the right last name or the proper influence it can be smoothed over.

Anonymous said...

No fttc I am not referring to beheading at all.

John the Baptist was beheaded at the request of Herodias daughter who danced for Herod.

John the Baptist condemn Herod and Herodias of a adulterous relationship. She was the WIFE OF HIS BROTHER!

Read the scipture.
14:3 For Herod had laid hold on John, and bound him, and put him in prison for the sake of Herodias, his brother Philip’s wife.

14:4 For John said unto him, It is not lawful for thee to have her.

14:5 And when he would have put him to death, he feared the multitude, because they counted him as a prophet.

I WILL CLARIFY...WARREN'S NEW FLDS.
Were wives and children are given to other men at the whim of a false prophet.

If John the Baptist was alive today, he would tell Warren the same thing he told Herod the King.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:24

Your ignorance is that of a fool,Your condemnation of the FLDS,should be addresed to the FLDS,none of whom are
on this blog.Attacking their relatives,who read this blog is like
trying to convert Jews at a NAZI rally.Do you really expect to convert
anyone to Christ,by such vile tactics?Or are you just an internet troll,who enjoys attacking people?

Anonymous said...

Actually, regardless of the leaders prophetic status or not, I can easily see grounds for counsel against family contact with those who chose the world.

If those in any group disobey the rules of that group, you must have consequences.

The rules are, no worldiness, no rock and roll, modest dress and a surrender of ones will to the established order of Elders.

Its the same principle in any religion or club, only as a God focussed no limits religion that is not pandering to make numbers, it encompasses all avenues of life.

That the leaders are not perfect is not the point, and an unbiased judgement of any given actions would need to be made to acurately judge any of them.

Id say that on balance they are doing better than average western society for their people. But I havent yet properly investigated so I may be incorrect.

Did you know that a democracy is an oppression by popular rule and not by wise rule.

Your vote means virtually nothing in your world, and your system of goverment corrupted, your children led like lambs to the sheering shed through the schools and fed on TV rock and roll, rap, sex open promiscuity etc,yet you condemn others so quickly annon 5.55, who are trying to live clean healthy self sufficient lives according to their best conscience and light.

Anonymous said...

Dear 10:31
Who is attaching anyone?
Quoting scripture a vile tactic?
So be it.

Is it not the practice of FLDS women to be given over to a brother of their ex FLDS husband or another man if their husband loses the priesthood?

If man lose his priesthood he cannot exhalt his wives, so they leave him, for a priesthood holder.

Once again, John the Baptist lost his head because he condemn the adulterous relationship of King Herod and his brother's wife Herodias.

Sound familiar, a practice of Warren's FLDS. A practice of giving women and children of exhile priesthood men to other men in the priesthood thus engaging in adulterous relationships.

There. I said it. Shame on me.

8:24 a.m.

fttc said...

8:24

Thanks for the clarification. I was way off track!

fttc said...

Anon 4:42

In your opinion can a person not choose warren and also not choose the world? Is there any truth or virtue outside of the FLDS?

Anonymous said...

Hi there,
I am very concerned for my family. I am hoping someone on this blog can help me find them..???? PLEASE!!!! Is there anyone out there who knows where Merrill, Sterling, Lillian, Amy, or any of Merrill Steeds' family is? I am desperatly looking for them and would LOVE to know if they're ok. Any info is appreciated. PLEASE drop me a line if you know where they are. THANKS.
(concerned daughter)

Anonymous said...

Dear 4:42 what piece of crap.

The rules are, no worldiness, no rock and roll, modest dress and a surrender of ones will to the established order of Elders.

The curious thing is the rules are broken by the Elders. When you are not looking they are rock and rolling, very worldly. The Elders have forgotten to surrender to the modest dress. Wigs, sunglasses, shorts, baseball cap, pink blouse and shorts. Red Escalade.
Oh, I forgot the pink ribbon in Namoi's hair. Vacations to Disney Land.

Anonymous said...

Dear fttc,

My reply to your 9.01 question.

Of course their is truth and virtue outside of FLDS.

Of course one leave Warren and FLDS continue to take on all Godliness and not choose the world.

Since when did God give one set of his children a franchise on drawing nigh unto him.

However, all things need to be done by the spirit of God, by the inspiration of God. So either staying of leaving, it needs to be what God knows you need to do.

Anyone with the knife like spirit of God and furnished with ALL the facts will be able to make a reasonable judgement of when something is and is not of God.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10.17, my words were not the expletive you described them as.

The standards I mentioned are not hard to meet, our honorable grandparents managed them quite well. Cant see anything wrong with them myself.

What this or that 'Elder' may or may not do isnt the point either.

If all the Elders were off course, then fair reason for walking alone under God, but one or two in this or that, well what do you expect from humans.

And pink ribbons and Disney land, I cant see un-Godliness in such.

In the world but not of the world dosent mean boring, it means good clean enjoyment, and Disney Land could afford that for growing youth with adult supervision.

We desire that out children will grow to walk through the world but remain untarnished by the garbage, and this requires that we separate them from worldiness until we as their parents have a reasonable idea that they will be able to handle what the world throws at them, and for each teenager this varies according to the individual.
So trips where ever the parent see fit is the parents business.

It concerns me that your present vocabulary limits your attempts to convey your feelings to mono-slyabistic four letter nouns.

Could you please broaden your derogatives and clarify what your specific disagreements are in future.

Many Thanks.

Your fellow Human Being.

fttc said...

12:57

My apologies. I thought perhaps you were FLDS. I appreciate and agree with most of your reply.

Anonymous said...

Fellow Human Being

My statements where in regard to the Prophet Warren Jeffs who demands a certain dress code, actions and devotion from his followers so they can attain perfection.

Mr. Jeffs, one of his wives and brother where drenched in worldiness when he got caught running from the law.

Jeffs has excommunicated men and women for far less.

Anonymous said...

This thread has been very intriguing (thanks to all who have posted) and somewhat confusing to me. Perhaps someone could clear up a few wonderments I have.

Are we to submit to the "will" of the elders or the example of the elders? There is a huge difference. As far as I'm concerned, one who says "do as I say and not as I do" is a hypocrite, not a leader. I think one wise man was on the right track when he said “teach them correct principles and they (the people) govern themselves.”

As far as a democracy being so bad and oppressive, it seems that when two completely agree on how to resolve an issue, one is not needed. With that said, no one is completely right all of the time, myself most certainly included. Any civilized people must have rules to live by, but unless every ones input is valued, respected and considered, it will fail and revert to a dictatorial theocracy or the rule of kings. This goes for family, church, or any territorial government.

Also, what is the basis used to decide if something is "of the world" or “worldly?” This is something I have always been unclear on. Certainly it is more than just doing things different than what your parents or grandparents did, especially when one considers that the world they grew up and lived in is different than the current world. It seems that if we try to do everything exactly as our ancestors did, we will find ourselves perfectly equipped to handle a world that no longer exists.

Does anyone have a reference to use to decide if something is “of the world?” If they could share it, I’m sure it would be a great help to many people.

Not trying to offend, just looking for honest answers and conversation.

IITMOC

uncaduff said...

Does anyone have a reference to use to decide if something is “of the world?”

IITMOC,I'm sure you know the answer already, but I'll say it anyway.

"if it's not of the Prophet, it's of the world."
this puts everything said prophet thinks will cause him any inconvenience, into the taboo zone.
so the term becomes ambiguous.
if on the other hand, you say "if its not of God, its of the world,"
were back where we started, because virtually all of what were told "comes from God", comes from "the Prophet". there is one thing most of us can agree on though, that comes from God, and that is, "love God and esteem your neighbor as yourself" and as one wise man stated, "the rest is commentary". which means, I believe, its someone's idea.

Anonymous said...

Do polygamist watch the show Big Love? I love the show..my favorite is Margene..although I really like Niki too...

fttc said...

I was always taught that if you can buy it with money it is of the world. Works for me.

I did like your reasoning uncaduff.

uncaduff said...

fttc, you knew this was commin.

yer reasonin makes yer salvation under Warren, "of the world"

uncaduff said...

10:22, your tv big love is a fairy tale. however,if any of Warren's decipels happen to have a tv and a closet, they might watch it. if they don't git caught.
seems like lotta the less radical pligs watch it though. fer laughs maybe?

fttc said...

Uncaduff

I hadn't followed that angle to conlusion but how true you are. Your reasoning applied to mine really gets places!

Anonymous said...

uncaduff & fttc,

:) excellent responses.

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

"if it's not of the Prophet, it's of the world."

Uncaduff, I gotta ask, is it only what he says and excludes his actions, or do actions count also?

IITMOC

uncaduff said...

his action's are only a test,therefor mute. however,if you or I do as he does,it is "of the world" and we therefor sin. :) :)

Anonymous said...

fttc,

You said: "I was always taught that if you can buy it with money it is of the world."

Does this mean that heresy, gossip, opinions, and rumors which all can be had for free, are the standard to judge all my actions? If so, do I follow all of them, some of them, or just pick and choose to decide if an action is "worldly"?

IITMOC

uncaduff said...

IITMOC, put em all inna circle and spin th bottle.

Anonymous said...

I dont feel your disagreements with 'Warren' are about the standards he has counseled.

I dont think your disagreements are even about whether he lived these standards or not.

I think you actually agree that worldliness is not Godliness and that anything which degrades, demeans or enslaves is worldliness, whilst that which sustains and enobles is Godliness.
I also think you agree that a modest and appropriate dress standard is ennobling, and that the wearing of whatever as the general world does is not emnnobling.

I do hold that it is not that which we wear on the outside that makes us saints or sinners, but the inner heart. However, it is the iner heart of man and not of God that would wear overly revealing clothing or clothing inappropriate for the occasion.

So the real beef you have has to be about something else.

Perhaps you didnt get along with someone in the past, or perhaps you just dont belive in any sort of leadership.

What sort of leader would you have been if you were in Warrens shoes.

Or would you have fled the position had it came upon you.

You know, your supposed to love Warren as well, if you've got that Godliness thing happening on the inside.

Anonymous said...

Dear IMTOC

Your words below.

'Any civilized people must have rules to live by, but unless every ones input is valued, respected and considered, it will fail and revert to a dictatorial theocracy or the rule of kings. This goes for family, church, or any territorial government.'

Please allow me to correct the shallow and populist thinking that yet remains in your mind due to lack of thought and experience on your part.

Youve said.

'but unless every ones input is valued, respected and considered, it will fail'

I think what you need to believe is let everyone be respected and valued and considered.

But if a population is increasing, and in a peacable society that is generally the case, then their will be more rising generations that wise and experienced Elders.

There fore to give everyone the same say means that the minds and experience of the youth and unwise and inexperienced will be the rulers. Popular opinion is not wise opinion, it is most often emotional, just as your qoted remarks show.

The eglatarian bestaowl of voting rights is a poison, it has destroyed the republic which the founding fathers sought to leave us.

To whom we give the vote, but let there be high standards to meet to obtain that vote, and let their be higher standards for representative.

Further more, the weight of the votes ought be counted differently. A person over 50 will have generally speaking, more life experience than a 20 year old, and a person who has raised a family and run their own small business will have more life experience again. Lets us recognize the wisdom and experience these common honest self sufficent men have and assign them 8 or ten votes each.

The mormon and FLDS standards are Aaronic levels of attitude and service as a minimum for public office, and Mechezedik for high court judges and senetors and presidents.

I know the whole Priesthood program is corrupted in many places, having a framework but not the spirit of God.

So the question I would put to you is.

What manner of man (or woman) are you and are you able by your daily works to bring about righteous improvements in the world and people about you.

To learn more about democracies and their inheirant faults, Google democracies and republics.

Its your country if you want to make it better.

Anonymous said...

anonymous said: "I don’t feel your disagreements with 'Warren' are about the standards he has counseled."

You are correct.

anonymous then said: "I don’t think your disagreements are even about whether he lived these standards or not."

Sorry anon, but that IS one of my main disagreements. If you are “as God” to the people, how can you be trusted if you don’t live what you teach.

I also feel that you can love someone without agreeing with or condoning their actions.

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

There is no way I would want to require public officials to "hold the priesthood"; Melchezedic or Aaron. That would destroy religious freedom faster than about anything I can think of, except maybe Bush wanting to deny agnostics citizenship.

Anonymous said...

IITMOC said "I also feel that you can love someone without agreeing with or condoning their actions".

Exactly IITMOC! That is what Jesus did on this earth and what true Christlike individuals should do.

People watch other people actions.

If you say one thing and your actions or life style say something else, your testimony is worthless.

If Warren had turned himself in and defended his beliefs, I would have more respect for his opinions, even though I disagreed.

Anonymous said...

I cant disagree 4.07 I dont know Warren myself or how he has lived.

5.41 I'll have to give a bit more thought to the religious freedom situation.

I agree that the peoples of the world are where they are at, and they have the right to honor the religion of their birth.

But I do not mean that public servatnts should be ordained Aaronic and higher servants and judges be Mechezedik.

What I mean is, i am looking for those character traist, attributes and attitudes in those whom we would appoint.

So if we can specify the attitude we want, the character we want, the standards we are looking for, then perhaps we will be able to have high standards of Elders in positions of administration and judgement, rather than the present where standards are rather low or not sufficiently considered.

I look to make improvements, and I reflect upon all histories available for how they did things to see what can be learned and gleaned form them.

Anonymous said...

Rule #1: The "experienced" elders are always right.

Rule #2: If the "experienced" elders are wrong, please refer to rule #1.

Too often, the “experienced” elders have so much “experience” and are so “inspired” they will tell you how to fix your life without taking the time to listen to you and find out what is wrong. They also base their acceptance of you upon how well you follow their directives. Because of this, I am more interested in moral authority, and less in positional authority.

anon 3:57, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, perhaps you could clarify a few things for me.

If you respect and value someone, how can you do this and not value their input? How can you understand someone unless you listen to and receive their input?

What exactly was the “emotional” part of my quote you were referring to? You are right, just because something is popular does not make it right. I do believe we should be a society with values that are based on unchanging principles (like the golden rule), not necessarily just the input of “experienced” individuals. We should also, each one, take responsibility for the actions we take and the consequences. Is one responsible for the outcome of their actions when those actions were dictated to them by “experienced” elders?

The Lord said he is no respecter of persons. If an "experienced" elder counts for 8 or 10 and an inexperienced for only 1, how do you, let alone the lord, justify this apparent imbalance?

Experience and age are great attributes, I agree, and should be respected. The young generation should seek the advice and wisdom of those who have traveled life's paths. At the same time, the "experienced" need to listen to the young to understand where they are on the path of life. Also, as we get older we get into habits that we may not even realize are slowing us down. A young person may see this and recommend a better alternative.

So you see, the input of both is needed, but totally useless to the other until the other persons position is fully understood. This has nothing to do with who is most “experienced.” And yes, some have more they can contribute to society than others, regardless of age.

The rule of government you describe reminds me of the "perfect theocracy" we were told we were being governed under when I was growing up. It evolved into a "benevolent dictatorship" and its fruits are available for all to see in the current FLDS. Could you show me how this is really the Lord’s way?

If all office holders in the national government were to be "Melchizedek" priesthood holders, what position do the "honorable men of the earth" that Joseph Smith talked of occupy?

You wondered what manner of man or woman I am. I am just a simple man, trying to raise my family through example and instill into them values based on principle. If I succeed at home, I have succeeded in life.

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

You are very wise IITMOC.

Anonymous said...

Sorry if this is considered an ignorant question.

Are FLDS members in good standing allowed to own a computer and frequent these polygamy forums?

fttc said...

Anon 5:45

Take uncaduffs above comment on Big Love; replace Big Love with Internet and TV with computer and you will have the idea.

uncaduff said...

anon, I would like to respond to your posts, but you seem to be so steeped in the icons of Priestcraft, that I'm unable to find an axiom common to both of us, on which to construct a chain of logic.

Anonymous said...

anon, I assume you are trying to describe your vision of zion on earth, so to go along with what iitmc said, I was wondering something. If the young and middle aged are to redeem zion, what are all the experienced elders doing?

Anonymous said...

Uncaduff,

Please define "less radical polygs"
as mentioned by yourelf,in response
to the Big love comment.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 5:45 AM said
Are FLDS members in good standing allowed to own a computer and frequent these polygamy forums?


Look at the contents of Warren's vehicle when he was arrested. Laptops, GPS, thumb drives.

Warren was emailing someone in good standing.

Look at the businesses owned by Warren's very faithful followers.

New Era Manufacturing in Las Vegas comes to mind. They have a website.

Anonymous said...

Those in control, yes, they can have whatever is "necessary".

Those who are being controlled, no, they must be kept away from such evils as news and media.

Anonymous said...

The young and middle aged redeem zion, but when they become old and worn out, kick them out.

Anonymous said...

so zion doesn't need experience and wisdom?

uncaduff said...

"less radical polygs"
those who are more free thinking, not so fanatic.

uncaduff said...

so zion doesn't need experience and wisdom?

both are a serious obstruction to new revelation.

Anonymous said...

Replies to IITMOC 10.11

Your question:
'anon 3:57, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying, perhaps you could clarify a few things for me.

If you respect and value someone, how can you do this and not value their input? How can you understand someone unless you listen to and receive their input?'

My reply:
The problem here with regards to reality is that you have confused love and respect with voting rights etc.

Just because your children (whom you love)become 18 or 21, does not mean they should ever have EQUAL say with you in your house or a vote in your business, yet the country is just that, an extension of the home and business. All societies that thrive do so because of the wisdom and itelligence of their laws and systems and leaders.
It is not intelligent to give youth and the inexperienced a vote. In fact for the lost part people do not have sufficient depth of thought until they are 35 plus. Most people begin to consider with approriate seriousness the future of their country after they have had a child or two. So this idea of 'democracy' is driven by emotion, not sound reasoning, not reality.

Your words:
'What exactly was the “emotional” part of my quote you were referring to? You are right, just because something is popular does not make it right. I do believe we should be a society with values that are based on unchanging principles (like the golden rule), not necessarily just the input of “experienced” individuals. We should also, each one, take responsibility for the actions we take and the consequences. Is one responsible for the outcome of their actions when those actions were dictated to them by “experienced” elders?'

Values are not enough, that is a watered down version of righteousness. If your aiming for celestial slavation you need to seek after all righteousness and enduring lift those whom God gives unto you and who can be lead.

The golden rule is often proffered as 'love thy neighbor as theyself, but in fact it is pre-cursered with, 'THOU SHALT LOVE THE LORD THEY GOD WITH ALL THEY HEART, MIGHT MIND AND STRENGTH.'
Further to that, when Jesus was leaving his disciples he did not say, love one another as you would like to be loved, he said, LOVE ONE ANOTHER AS I HAVE LOVED YOU.

There is a major difference in the two sentences. Jesus loved his disciples, but righteouseness, truth and justice first. The nature of God is righteousness, truth and justice. If we are outside of these three, the love of God is only long suffering whilst awaiting us to move into righteousness, truth and justice in those areas we yet lack.

We see the sharpness of this true spirit of religion in Jesus words to Peter, 'get thee behind me Peter.'
Jesus didnt quit on Peter just because he, like me, was a bit dense. He endured with Peter becuase Peter accepted correction and submitted to the Lords counsels.

Your words:
'The Lord said he is no respecter of persons. If an "experienced" elder counts for 8 or 10 and an inexperienced for only 1, how do you, let alone the lord, justify this apparent imbalance?'

My reply:
The meaning of the scripture that 'God is no respector of persons' has not got to do with giving our children and youth and inexperienced souls an EQUAL say in our counsels, forums and goverment.
This principle os equal say for everyone is not how the heavens run and they are not run this way becuase it doesnt work.

Your words:
Experience and age are great attributes, I agree, and should be respected. The young generation should seek the advice and wisdom of those who have traveled life's paths. At the same time, the "experienced" need to listen to the young to understand where they are on the path of life. Also, as we get older we get into habits that we may not even realize are slowing us down. A young person may see this and recommend a better alternative.

So you see, the input of both is needed, but totally useless to the other until the other persons position is fully understood. This has nothing to do with who is most “experienced.” And yes, some have more they can contribute to society than others, regardless of age'

Yes, we should listen to our young, as parents, scout matsers, home teachers whatever, but should they be allowed to air their thoughts in our high counsels and governments. NO, at least not often and only as we see fit.
Let them write to their representatives, that is what their representatives are for.'
Those few like Samuael and Joseph Smith will still rise to the top and it would be a foolish Elder who belived that Elders ought not listen as the scripture says, out of the mouths of babes.

Again, do you think that when you get to heaven your going to have an equal say with God, or Jesus or anyone above you. You know, I think thats why Lucifer gathered that host of darkness, to 'have his say and his way.'

No, there is an order of 'Elders' wherever we go, and every knee shall bow and confess this order, or else drop through the realms of heaven to the compost pit of the universe.

Your words:
'The rule of government you describe reminds me of the "perfect theocracy" we were told we were being governed under when I was growing up. It evolved into a "benevolent dictatorship" and its fruits are available for all to see in the current FLDS. Could you show me how this is really the Lord’s way?

My reply:
No I cannot tell you how you grew up was 'the Lords way.' I wasnt there. But that light which it contained is your challenge to retain and build upon, and in that I sincerly and earnestly wish you every success.

Your words:
'If all office holders in the national government were to be "Melchizedek" priesthood holders, what position do the "honorable men of the earth" that Joseph Smith talked of occupy?'

My reply:
The honorable men of the earth are qualified to hold offices in the public service, that is, akin to Aaronic level, only they do not hold the keys of the Gospel of repentance and Baptism and of the administering of angels.

When I speak of Mekezedik and Aaronic levels, I do not mean ordinations as per present.
And when I use the term 'Elder' I do not mean it in any association with the Priesthood, I only use it to refer to those who are older than us. Elders are anyone older than us. Priesthood Elders are those males who have actually attained a particular conection with God through the Holy order, but there are fewer of them than youd think.

At present in the LDS church the only real minimum standard for being ordained an Elder in the Melkezedik Priesthood is the age of 19.
This is not funny, it is just awful.

So there will not be too many brethren in the LDS church who are actually Melkezidik level, of attitude, of readiness to re-present the Lord God upon earth.

This is a bad state of affairs, and the spiritual levels of competency that I am seeking to expound upon are actually recognizeable in a person in the way they live their lives.
Observing someone for about 2-3 weeks would tell me just where their at and what they are qualified to be called to. If you have to employ people in any capacity, its necessary to assess their character, Voting is no different. Goverment is necessary, good Elders are the foundation of good government.

The levels that I recognize in the world about me are.

1. Devils and destructive.
from these I keep away for the most part.

2. Mediocrity and the Lost. With these I shine a little light and see what comes back from them. What comes back tells me where they are at and what the next step can be for them.

3. Those seeking but not yet humble enough to surrender to God.
These are a problem people, they can waste a lot of your time going in circles.

4.Those who are surrendering their will to God, but have a way to go or a number of lifetimes to go before they can be called. These at least attempt to keep the Ten commandments.

5. Honorable manhood and womanhood. These are the salt of the earth, they do Ok, they are about the terestrial and telestial levels, they do little harm and some good, but they do not understand the sharpness of the Celestial path and they cannot therefore administer it.

6. Those who wrestle and desire a high reward, who catch ahold of that refining spirit of God, ready to be called to a life a personal purification and selfless service to others. These I find the best feeling with. They employ spiritual self drive, they are productive, they are anxiously engaged in goodly and God inspired causes, they lay down their desires for the truths sake and the work of salvation in their fellow beings, they grow to love righteousness, they abhore injustice, they do not over charge, they pay fairly, they step out when its not popular, but they know its right, and not in rebellion, but carefully, prayerfully and tearfully.

I have spent the time to answer your words because the truth is worth it.
I hope my time has not been wasted.

Anonymous said...

Insulting, self-righteous, egotistical, arrogant, supercilious, contemptuous ......... words that come to mind after reading anon 5:58's post....... especially that last sentence. [gag!]

Anonymous said...

5:58 p.m.

You are lost as a lamb in all of your wisdom.

Anonymous said...

well folks,it seems that the one mighty and strong has come..... one more time........ or is it Gabrieal...or has the LORD returned?

fttc said...

Let's take a quick poll and see just how much time 5:58 did waste. I made it through about 25% before giving up and very quickly scanning the rest for content. How much did you make it through?

Anonymous said...

I read the whole thing. He's a perfect candidate for a destructive cult. People who say "poor, poor devils, I don't want to have to deal with you perverts in government" tend to get so holy that their closet skeletons exceed that of the wasted heathen democrats. Just look at the republicans, an order of magnitude more pedophilia from god's chosen party compared to the agnostic democrats.

uncaduff said...

8/14---5:58... anonymous,may I suggest a course in mortification management,in the event you are judged; as you judge.

Anonymous said...

A story for all to read:
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/sexual_assault/warren_jeffs/1_index.html

Anonymous said...

No Brother uncaduff,

We are supposed to judge. Every decision we make is based on a judgement, ever action, every freindship.

We are just not supposed to judge until we are qualified to judge.

When we judge we do not condemn, we assess and make decissions.

Judgement and condemnation are two very different things.

And Yes, I expect to be judged as I judge.

I want accuracy and justice. I do not belive in the doctrine of mercy overcoming justice and allowing us into the highest realms as taught by James Talmage.

Humility and Christlike Love have nothing to do with wishy washy weak willed attitudes to right and wrong, and everything to do with an unwavering firmness in the principles of honesty and righteousness, (not religiousness)that I employ in my own life.

Jesus was hated for his strength against unrighteousness, not because he didnt judge, but because he did judge.

Anonymous said...

Jesus said judge not,lest ye be judged.Go look it up.And not in some peep-stone in your hat,And not
in some "Scripture" you have written on a note book.Look it up in the Bible.Pres. LeRoy Johnson said take the scritures as a guide,not "false delusive spirits"

Anonymous said...

When you quots scriptures, you need to include chapter and verse.

And context. Else all our judges would be in sin wouldnt they?

Why do you confuse making a judgement with condemnation.

A compliament is just as much the result of a judgement as a reprimand.

What makes a judgement and an action resulting from a judgement good or bad is the accuracy of the judgment.

Go back and obey all the teachings and spirit of Jesus Christ before misquoting his spirit and intentions.

Then you will know we need judges.

Anonymous said...

Well you can have them.I need no earthly judges,but THE GREAT JUDGE.You will be judged by Him too.You are so full of worthless knowledge you cant see the forest for trees.You sound just like brother b. from share the light-blog.

Anonymous said...

Rejoice!!Be exceedingly Glad!!

Rejoice!! Ye Saints!!

Delivarance has arrived!!

Weep! O Warren Jeffs..Jim Harmiston...Tom Greene..David Bryan Mitchell...Gordon Hinckey...and other falsely annoited heads of the priesthood your days are numbered.

5.58 anon,... The One Mighty and Strong has arrived..to set God's house in order...again....blah-blah-blah!!

I think I'll sit this one out....

fax said...

If any members want to talk to someone on the "outside" how understand and doesn't judge and will not spend time trying to talk you out of your practices. Feel free to e-mail me at azcandyman@gmail.com

I'm non judgmental, in fact I don't even have a god so you can even judge me. Either way i'm not looking for a debate just making myself available for regular correspondence.

uncaduff said...

anon 5:10

e are just not supposed to judge until we are qualified to judge.

what would be in your resume that would qualify you to judge?

When we judge we do not condemn, we assess and make decissions.

thats rather egotistical, to assume that you have some right, or authority, to asses or make decisions about another person, who is a free agent, under his God given, inalienable rights.

after reading your posts, I for one, would not willingly give you any authority over me.

Josephine said...

Who has recieved the vision. Who will god call upon to be the next prophet. A great one indeed who will continue the teachings that have got us this far. They are all watching us in our beautiful limestone palace. I wish they knew their faces are being judged as they stare. Many dislike the way the prophet has ruled but ask those of you who believe he is truely evil, would have have built this kingdom for us?

Anonymous said...

John
5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and greater works than these will he show him, that ye may marvel.

5:21 For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom he will.

5:22 For neither doth the Father judge any man, but he hath given all judgment unto the Son;

5:23 that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father that sent him.

5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.

uncaduff said...

Josephine,
the Kingdom of God is WITHIN US. your whited sepulacher is filled with corruption and dead men's bones.

uncaduff said...

11:10.

could you clarify tour point, in regards to this subject?

T.rapped I.n Z.ion- said...

Gave up on us, doomed from the start, god have mercy on our dirty little hearts.

Shame on us for being helpless instead of strong for the sake of our childrens future.

I regret the isolation. As new and as beautiful as this place is, it feels like a prison. Nothing like CC at all. I want to go home.

---

Anonymous said...

t.rapped i.n.z.ion,

Free ride back to Colorado City,or anywhere else,you want to go.Finanial assitance available.
I only hope some good soul,will do the same for my daughters and grandchildren trapped in Warren's Kingdom.

Anfguy1234@cs.com

YFZ Dweller said...

I know how to keep sweet but this whole new paradise has left a bitter taste in my mouth. This blog was supposed to be for communication and instead I am reading judgments and religious arguments.

Leave us alone.

uncaduff said...

yfz dweller,turn off your computer, your not supposed to communicate with us apostates anyway. obey your prophet, and you will be left alone.
:) leave the squabbling to us apostates and Gentiles. :)

Anonymous said...

Read this short story and decide which of the animals would have been the "experienced" and worthy animals who could judge and make the rules for the other animals, and if a democracy have 8 or 10 votes each because of their greater "experience" and abilities as opposed to the others with only 1 vote.

Once upon a time the animals decided they must do something heroic to meet the problems of a “new world” so they organized a school. They had adopted an activity curriculum consisting of running, climbing, swimming and flying. To make it easier to administer the curriculum, all the animals took all the subjects.

The duck was excellent in swimming. In fact, better than his instructor. But he made only passing grades in flying and was very poor in running. Since he was slow in running, he had to stay after school and also drop swimming in order to practice running. This was kept up until his webbed feet were badly worn and he was only average in swimming. But average was acceptable in school so nobody worried about that, except the duck.

The rabbit started at the top of the class in running but had a nervous breakdown because of so much makeup work in swimming.

The squirrel was excellent in climbing until he developed frustration in the flying class where his teacher made him start from the ground up instead of the treetop down. He also developed a “charlie horse” from overexertion and then got a C in climbing and D in running.

The eagle was a problem child and was disciplined severely. In the climbing class, he beat all the others to the top of the tree but insisted on using his own way to get there.

At the end of the year, an abnormal eel that could swim exceeding well and also run, climb and fly a little had the highest average and was valedictorian.

The prairie dogs stayed out of school and fought the tax levy because the administration would not add digging and burrowing to the curriculum. They apprenticed their children to a badger and later joined the groundhogs and gophers to start a successful private school.

Does this fable have a moral?

uncaduff said...

George Orwell! is it really you?

the moral to the story is; if your afraid to live your own life, there's always somebody who is willing to live it for you.....and..... the only just government, is self government.


(OK whats the punch line)

Anonymous said...

Uncaduff,

You read the Blog on Brooke Adam's plural blog wrong. It stated that the dance didnt start until the Steeds showed up not that there were not dances until the Steeds showed up.

Utahn said...

There were dances in Short Creek as
early as 1935.Long before Newell Steed's family moved there.

Anonymous said...

Even if Warrent is found guilty, he will be home in probably less than a year. It is going to be very difficult to find him guilty of the present charges as is so he will be back to rule his kingdom in the proper manner.

Anonymous said...

Anyone know if Kelly Steed is a poofer? I heard she may have been sent up to Idaho/B.C.

Anonymous said...

Good question to anon 11.10 from uncaduf

I read it a few times to see the point.

heres what I could get out of it on Judgement.

Your quote.
'5:22 For neither doth the Father judge any man, but he hath given all judgment unto the Son;'

My reply:
Those who get the message of Jesus Christ are also called of the spirit to emulate his manner and attitude of service.
After some many years of this, that person will begin to enter than area of joint eirs with Christ.

In that, they will become the best qualified people to be your judges on earth.

This position was taken up by the prophet Samuel in the time of the judges in ancient Israel.

Indeed the father judges no man, but every man stands before his own Elders upon leaving this earth, and partakes of a realm according to their deeds.

The next paragraph quoted upon judgement is as follows.

'5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life.'

This whole verse, along with a number of others in the Letters of the Apostles, begins with a faliure to stipulate that 'hearing the words and beliveing on Him that sent Jesus' means obedience to what he taught.

The last term used, 'and cometh not into judgment,' actually does not mean we are not judged, but that we are not condemned.

Again, the original intention of Jesus Christ and the writer have been lost in translation.

Heres a basic example of what Jesus taught with regards to judgement at the close of this life.

Mathew Ch 16 verse 27:
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; AND THEN HE SHALL REWARD EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS WORKS.

Do not be afraid of the true Gospel, you are in it wherever you go, in so far as you are purchasing your inheritance by your obedience and accord with the mind and will of God.

The true Gospel is hidden, for it is of the spirit, and the ordinances do not reveal it of themselves, but the spirit reveals it to whom is ready and able to receive it.

Anonymous said...

Sounds like the old false delusive spirit con-artists are at work again............Ho ........Hum...................

Anonymous said...

Well 6:05 p.m.

I agree. So simple a simpleton can crasp it.

5:19 said
Do not be afraid of the true Gospel, you are in it wherever you go, in so far as you are purchasing your inheritance by your obedience and accord with the mind and will of God.


You don't get it. You cannot purchase your inheritance with obedience.

Jesus/God purchased my inheritance by the sacrifice of His Blood.
He gave it freely as a gift. I accepted it.

Think, what could you possibly give God, that he already does not own outright except your free will. You are free to accept the gift of His sacifice and you are free to deny.

WORKS only count throught the blood of the Lamb.

Anonymous said...

Hey YFZ Dweller

Your a liar.

Anonymous said...

7.22 You do not understand the Gospel.

Study the teachings, they contain attitudes and atributes that we need to imbue in our own spirits, through obedience to a path and the path.

'The path' is the inescapable things we must become.

'A path' is the fact that we each need to grow in different areas, overcome different unsustainable things.

Anonymous said...

All your holy inspiration was written and edited by the Roman Empire for control purposes. The Empire realized that control of the people was through their own interpretation of what was Christian. What you see now is the spawn of that corruption. The Principle is a revival of that slavery. Look to the interpretation of pre-Constantine Christianity and documents banned from the Bible. Joseph Smith revived what was Roman for his own pleasures and control, he followed a Roman tradition he recognized was necessary for enslavement of people through doctrine. Warren tried but was caught... The FLDS and LDS prophets are Caesars.

Anonymous said...

Joseph Smith had a pure heart.

People with pure hearts do not do such things, though they will, as we all will, make honest mistakes.

Anonymous said...

Anonymous, I am still trying to understand your form of leadership. Would you be willing to help me out?

Lets start with the family:

Do you believe a family should have a set of rules they live by?

Is anyone besides the head involved in the making of the rules?

What are these rules based on?

Does the head of the household live by the same rules as those under him?

Are the rules self explanatory and unchanging, or do they need the "interpretation" of the head for each circumstance?

If the head of the house does “interpret” the rules, what does he use for his reference point in interpreting?

Could anyone else use that same reference point if the head is not available to know if something is in accord with the rules of the house?



btw uncaduff, I don't know that Orwell is here and posting, but Animal Farm does have a lot of striking parallels to the history of the FLDS don't you think?

As to the moral of that fable, I would say that instead of judging others because they are different than us, we should value their different strong points as they may make up for some of our own shortcomings. If this is done, the whole could very well be greater than the sum of its parts.

Whether right or wrong, we judge others by their actions, ourselves by our intentions.

IITMOC

fax said...

I would like to have dinner and meet with an flds family. How many still reside in colorado city and Hilldale? Who is running those towns?

uncaduff said...

btw uncaduff, I don't know that Orwell is here and posting, but Animal Farm does have a lot of striking parallels to the history of the FLDS don't you think?


IITMOC, as a matter of fact, when we were living in Mesa Ariz. after the 1953 raid on Shortcreek, my mom read animal farm to myself and my sisters.
I was just 14 years old at the time, and things hadn't gotten as bad as they are now,at CC., but I made my Mom kinda mad when I made the statement, "this story sounds a lot like at home". guess I wuz kinda rebellious way back then.

Anonymous said...

8/16/2007 8:04 PM

Oh, I do understand the Gospel.

First Epistle of Paul to the Thessalonians

5:9 For God appointed us not into wrath, but unto the obtaining of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

5:10 who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

5:11 Wherefore exhort one another, and build each other up, even as also ye do.

5:12 But we beseech you, brethren, to know them that labor among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you;

5:13 and to esteem them exceeding highly in love for their work’s sake. Be at peace among yourselves.

5:14 And we exhort you, brethren, admonish the disorderly, encourage the fainthearted, support the weak, be longsuffering toward all.

5:15 See that none render unto any one evil for evil; but always follow after that which is good, one toward another, and toward all.

5:16 Rejoice always;

5:17 pray without ceasing;

5:18 in everything give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus to you-ward.

5:19 Quench not the Spirit;

5:20 despise not prophesyings;

5:21 prove all things; hold fast that which is good;

5:22 abstain from every form of evil.

5:23 And the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly; and may your spirit and soul and body be preserved entire, without blame at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

AND THE MOST IMPORTANT VERSE OF ALL.

5:24 Faithful is He that calleth you, who will also do it.

Anonymous said...

uncaduff,

you must have had a keen eye for the obvious a long time ago.

IITMOC

uncaduff said...

IITMOC, mom said it wuz the devil whisperin to me.

Anonymous said...

8.04, No, you do not understand the Gospel.

You think you do.

But people with closed minds cannot learn anything new.

Anonymous said...

Uncaduff,

God to one man is the devil to another.

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

This has been quite interesting. Many different types of people here.

In quoting the scripture of Christ in "Judge not, that ye be not judged" if you will read it in the Inspired Version of the Bible, it says "Judge not unrighteously,"

That says a lot to me.

Tmuf

Anonymous said...

Thank you Tmuf

I have not read that version of the Bible collection of books, but I suspect it is a complete re-translation, with an emphases on getting the translation of intended meanings more acurate.

Thankyou again, it upholds what the spirit tells me.

Anonymous said...

Could someone from the FLDS please tell me the plan of salvation according to your own doctrine? What am I to do to make it into Heaven?? Please explain... Thanks,
AtZ

Anonymous said...

Thank you Tmuf

I have not read that version of the Bible collection of books, but I suspect it is a complete re-translation, with an emphases on getting the translation of intended meanings more acurate.

Thankyou again, it upholds what the spirit tells me.
8/18/2007 1:11 AM

Hey 1:11 get another spirit. The apostate RLDS Church owns the rights to the Inspired Version and according to Uncle Warren it has been changed.

Get another spirit.Fool.

Anonymous said...

Hey 12:02 pm.

"Uncle Warren" has said in court "I am not a prophet,nor have I ever been a prophet"

So YOU get another spirit.Fool!!

Anonymous said...

to Josephine:

The Pope has a beautiful kingdom too, so does the LDS Church. Does that make them right?

King Noah did too. And also, Nebechadnezar. And let's not forget King Harrod. The list could go on and on.

Don't make the mistake of calling good evil, and evil good there's a pretty good chance that history will repeat itself... again.

Anonymous said...

AtZ

There is a book called "The Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith" you can study it if you like. This is what we (should) stand on, the original teachings of Joseph Smith. He can say it a lot better than I can.

Tmuf

Anonymous said...

To 12.02 #2, a reply from 12.02 #1

I have never met 'Uncle Warren' or any FLDS.

I have born witness of what the spirit has taught me.

Anonymous said...

Good for you!Now shake the dust off your feet,and move along.

Anonymous said...

The FLDS continue the traditions of the True Mormon Faith. As, such, they are the inheritors of responsibility of the massacre of the innocents, Mountain Meadows. Not the current LDS. The FLDS continue in the footsteps of their past.

Anonymous said...

6.30, you are such a nutter.

Everyone is ONLY responsible for their own actions.

Where did you get your sense of justice.

'inheritors of responsibility' ??

How on earth can you be taken seriously.

uncaduff said...

IITMOC,have you ever wondered at the illogic of a just and loving God,sending his precious souls to earth to be ravaged by a vicious Devil, with nothing but the words of untrustworthy man for protection? or dose it make more sense, that we come here, into a "virtual reality" of what life is really about, to learn by doing, how to protect our self from mortal devils who would use us up for there own purposes?

Anonymous said...

The evils in us do more harm to us than the evils without us.

It is our own evils we come here to overcome.

And we are not fresh spirits at conception, we have a history due to past choices before this present life.

You are responsible for your actions and reactions, regardless of your surroundings, and your past personality comes out in how you have acted.

The question we are all faced with is.

Who shall I be now and today and what spirit shall I believe in to follow.

Anonymous said...

Tmuf...
Thanks so much for your kind reply. Are you "living" the words of Joseph Smith?? Where would I get a book like that? I would love to meet you. Are you actually IN Texas? Drop me a line..
AtZ

Anonymous said...

Anonymous 6:30 may not be so "Nutter", he has a valid point. Who else will suffer for the sins of the LDS such as John Lee did, the FLDS will suffer for the Mountain Meadows Massacre in place of the LDS. This is the plan. Already there is a wagon train from Arkansas to the Meadows for Sept. 11th ceremony. Does something about September 11th ring a bell??

Anonymous said...

8;49pm you are a nutter,please seek help.

Anonymous said...

Gotcha Thinkin 9:14? Heh, heh, heh.

A Tackitt :)

Anonymous said...

Hey What about the real "living words of Jesus"?

Joseph Smith last I heard is dead.

uncaduff said...

8\18-8:49 of this type of thinking, is superstition borne.

uncaduff said...

ey What about the real "living words of Jesus"?

aaah...and where do ya find these living words? and how do ya know there the "words of Jesus" and not the ramblings of some self styled priest?

uncaduff said...

{It is our own evils we come here to overcome.}

ignorance and inexperience yes, evil no. evil is acquired here. thats my story and Im sticken to it, (till convinced otherwise.) (:0)

Anonymous said...

It is a fair comment uncaduff,and worthy of serious consideration.

On the ignorance and inexperience, Yes, that we definately come here to over come.

Of Evil, well I believe in the high probability of other lives, past lives etc.

I also see that children are born with different tendencies.

Now some of these tendencies are a bit twisted, sometimes downright wrong, and sometimes evil.

When a tendency or desire bears bad fruit, then that is evil, but before the fruit is borne we cannot call it evil.

So on balance I believe that a number of us do bring enough bad baggage from past lives of circumstances that does bear bad fruit, and in that i would say we are here to over come that evil potential.

Does this help to show where my thinking is comeing from?

uncaduff said...

Of Evil, well I believe in the high probability of other lives, past lives etc.

I have to agree , in fact I was thinking along these lines while writing the above, and anticipated such a response. my tendency to oversimplify sometimes leads to misunderstanding. wist I wuz shmarter.:(

Anonymous said...

I do the same, I actually over simplified the line in my original response, about being here to over come the evil in us, and I felt someone would pick up on it.

uncaduff said...

19 9;08.
my protest was against the concept that we are created evil. I have a hard time believing that. I would define evil, as a conscious, deliberate, intent to do harm, without reason. simply for the pleasure of causing suffering. and ya know, I'm afraid I know people like that. so, the question, were they created that way, or did they acquire the trait later? I wonder if the answer is in the process by which we are created. a hypothetical discussion on this topic may be considered heretical on this forum.
so I better shut up.

fttc said...

I find this discussion intriguing. Keep going!

Anonymous said...

Wow this is just like that Big Love tv show. I want to come visit and hang out and stuff. No poison and stuff though. Aren't a lot of people going to be sad that Uncle Warren is going to jail? Who's going to take over and rule the UEP and Zion ranch?

Anonymous said...

Ya'll ever think of comin' to Arkansas? I would love to get some autograph memorabilia and stuff. I got me one wife and she don't even want to do the housework. You all are a hoot. To bad the lord is not going to be pleased with what Jeffs done did.

uncaduff said...

11:28, you don't wanna hang with this crowd,th only women left are really hard ta look at, an there really mean. the bretheren got all th good uns.

so, Arkansas, what, ya wanna have two wives what don't wanna do th housework?

uncaduff said...

fttc, it’s fun to speculate about this stuff, but if we were to come up with good sounding
ideas, well that’s how new religions get started, and we dot need any more of that.
we can maybe list what we think we do know, such as;
1 we know were here;
2 the sources of what we’ve been told, are questionable;
3 we cant remember anything that happened before we came here;
so using 3 as a starting point, ether nothing happened before we came here, or there is a
good reason why we cant remember. going from there, we might look at some of the
biggest problems we have, and assume we are here to learn how to solve these problems.
that being said ; the biggest problem we have, it seems to me , is getting along with each
other, (and the rest is comentary)....... and so forth.....

gotta shut it, its gittin to deep, even fer me.

uncaduff said...

my word processor is a worse speller than me, sorry.

Anonymous said...

I concur completely on this point uncaduff.

We were not created evil.

The question that arises to me is: How were we created?

Our spirit I mean. How was our spirit created or come into being as a human spirit, as aopposed to say, an animal spirit or plant spirit?

For that matter, from whence does spirit matter come from?

If human spirits are the spirit off-spring of God, then of whom do the plants spirits spring.

Why is their such an abundance of spirit matter available?
Where is it stored in the realms. What is it a result of.

It feels a bit too convenient to say we are spirit off spring, without having a theory of all spirit matter.

Where ever life germinates, there is spirit matter present. Was it waiting about or did it arive from somewhere?

I know that there are spirit plants in spirit realms, my mother has seen them their and they give off feelings as you walk by, the say hello, and radiate a form of love.

But were they first spirits there, or here. Spirit we are taught, is a form of matter, but when it takes on a personality, then we call it that person. This suggests that spirit is matter that has gone through experience. Does this mean physical and temporal experience, or experience in spirit realms alone. If we could have all the experience we need in spirit realms and they come first, then why bother coming to a physical realm at all.

If we take the Joseph Smith line that ' as man is God once was, as God is, man may become; this sugests we started here, that God started as man upon earth, and not as a spirit child of God, seeing as there must be a beggining to all circumstances. Therefore one option is that spirit matter was born upon earth.

This I have been told, that the next level spirit realm is all about us.

This we can conlude. That either the spirit realm rules the physical and made the physical, or else the physical realm manufactures spirit matter via hydrogen and oxygen (male and female)passing through experience, which then rises through the ranks of consciousness of plant, animal, human, to become a God, after many many lifetimes.

So I keep these two possibilities in mind, and then watch what evidence arises for either theory.



Here are a few more questions.

Why do a percentage of heart transplant recipients take on the feelings and desires of their donors? Does the heart retain spirit matter sometimes, like a tree graft or a plant cutting.

I was told by the spirit once, 'when there is love in your life, all the involuntary organs work better.'

The heart is the primary involuntary organ, it sets a rythym in the body and responds to love. It must operate on spirit, it simply must.

The spirit seems to know how to operate the body. Why?

Our instincts are also involuntary.
We are born with the instinct to suckle, where does that comes from.
Where did we get mamalian instincts if we never were mamalian before.I beleive instinct and traits at birth are worth considering.

The problem of not remembering past lives has not yet been adressed seriously.

Why do we not remember if we were there.

Heres a clue I have picked up on.

How does you memory work?

Do you recall what you were doing on the 21st of august last year.
No yopu dont, inless some associated feeling was attached to it.

Feelings seem to be strong memory creators. The stronger the feeling, the better the memory.
What is a feeling?

A feeling and thought is the vocabulary of our spirit.
Just as we comunicate physically with radiant sound from our mouths, so we
comunicate by radiating thoughts and feelings from our spirit.

So this 'vail' we are taught of, that presents us from remembering the past, may be a result of the time we spend in the womb. For we are shrouded in another person as it were, with all their feelings. These would be rather strong, and this along with childhood, may well act just like a holiday for our spirit, to let go of the past and begin without too many memories, but with all the traits of spirit we were before.

uncaduff said...

well 6:35, like I said before, speculation is entertaining and maybe even good mental exercise, but it dose not give accurate answers.

how about this; "if God created the Universe, then He exists outside of and independent of said Universe,and everything we are aware of is an artifact" that makes me think our "laws of physics" are not necessarily the same as his, so how could we understand spirit, if it is of his realm.

jist runnin off at the mouth again.

Anonymous said...

Yes, speculation is only that,

But,

To accumulate evidences is to build a picture, and so find certainties where independant evidences cross paths.

uncaduff said...

the speculation has been going on for thousands of years,and the certainties are still pretty sparse.

Anonymous said...

Curlium photography is a certainty worth studying.

We are spirits in bodies, thats a certainty.

Everything has to come from somewhere, thats a certainty.

We are all born different, thats a certainty.

God is real and God is just, thats a certainty.

heres a good question though:
Why are autistic people able to use their minds so well in some areas?

Just a few thoughts.

fttc said...

uncaduff

All this is interesting enough but now I see what you meant about speculation and heresy. Your wisdom wins out again.

Anonymous said...

Our instincts are also involuntary. We are born with the instinct to suckle, where does that comes from. Where did we get mamalian instincts if we never were mamalian before.I beleive instinct and traits at birth are worth considering.

I think I probably got that instinct from my wife the first time I saw her. And my kids must have inherited it.

Anonymous said...

Boy

8/20/2007 6:35 PM

What have you been smoking?

Some of your spirit plants?

uncaduff said...

8/22 2:43...unless you first saw your wife at a critically precise point in your physical development, it certainly is not certain that she was the first arouse this instinct within you.

Anonymous said...

Somebody needs to start a new thread, this one is BORING!!! Yawn.

Anonymous said...

Why are my comments being deleted?

T.I.Z.

Anonymous said...

Mind the profanity and the Admin won't delete your posts.

uncaduff said...

Somebody needs to start a new thread, this one is BORING!!!

then start one. ya see somthin needs done, do it. don't jist say somebody needs ta. :)

Anonymous said...

Well some people have things to do instead of sitting around, so maybe they dont have time.

uncaduff said...

then whaterya doin sittin around?

ATAR_i said...

OK - had to stop reading when an individual suggested that the advanced in age should have more of a vote, than the young.

I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong - that Christ said 'let the little children come unto Me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these'.

Perhaps the old have baggage, (experience YES - baggage ALSO), and do not always see things as purely and simply as a young person. The young person may see the ideal, the old person, perhaps the cynic.

Besides, this notion of being 'more special' for one reason or another, by birth, physical beauty, natural intelligence, advanced degrees, number of wives, length of hair, number of children or any such thing is just ridiculous.

We are all special, and not one of us can judge the other - because NONE of us can see the heart - which is the ONLY thing that will be judged and the ONLY thing that matters.

So enough of rubbish ideas like that.

Anonymous said...

Rubbish,

we are going to be judged for our actions, not just our hearts or intentions.

If you cant see other peoples hearts, its because you cant see your own or you dont want to.

What a man or womam loves and where their priorities lie, that is where their heart lies and that is not so difficult to see.

Your ommitance of sound reasoning and its substitution with dogma is a real worry. What religion is that or are you just a shallow thinker?

ATAR_i said...

Not rubbish at all. If you could earn your spot/purchase your spot in heaven it would be easy.

What a man or womam loves and where their priorities lie, that is where their heart lies and that is not so difficult to see.

Ahh, but that is not so. I would say that viewpoint is born of ignorance, naivety or pure bullheadedness to expand your argument.

If that is your example of sound reasoning, we can stop now.

Also, why the launch into the personal attack, the name calling, is that what's in your heart?

Regina said...

I stumbled on this blog wandering around the internet trying to learn a bit about polygamy and the polygamist sects. My curiosity was piqued by the show "Big Love".

I am not trying to be disrespectful. Or obtuse. I would genuinely appreciate an answer to my question(s).

If a person tries to live a good and decent life, based on the standards of 'good' and 'decent' that are commonly accepted, but is not a Mormon, or follower of any formal rligion, for that matter, what do Mormons believe happens to that person's spirit when they die?

And I have been told, I have no "proof" of this, that Mormons believe that person's of color are the incarnation of the devil. Is this true? And what if a person who is 'of color' lives an exceptional and good life, what happens to their spirit when they die?
And where do persons of mixed racial lineage stand?

Thank you in advance to anyone who tackles my questions.
Regina

Anonymous said...

Heres a start to your question Regina.

'If a person tries to live a good and decent life, based on the standards of 'good' and 'decent' that are commonly accepted, but is not a Mormon, or follower of any formal rligion, for that matter, what do Mormons believe happens to that person's spirit when they die?'

We.all go to a realm of glory to which our conduct and spirit are fitted, where there are people just like ourselves.
It is not as the old christians teach, a heaven or hell only option.

But to obtain the highest realm of heaven, one must have 'overcome all things' and taken on the sins of the world and sought to lift others in a similar manner as did Christ only in our part of the world with our own people.

Without this ordinances mean nothing.

Anonymous said...

Is there anyone affiliated with the FLDS that would like to share their experiences with me?

I'm curious what its like on the inside (from news interviews everyone seems so happy - like a eutopia)

Is this true...is this not true?

swshow7@gmail.com

I can email you back my toll free #

I'm not a cop, lawyer or reporter.

Thanks!

Regina said...

I suppose I am your classic agnostic....
I was quasi raised in the Roman Catholic Church.....But my intro to R.C. wasn't until I was about 9 yrs. old and by then I was certainly old enough to question lots of things...and I'd been raised in my early years by a grandmother who considerred "Romans" next to the devil...so I had a few biases going into things....
Anyway, I tell you that to put things in context.....
I experienced a great deal of ugliness from a number of folks who touted themselves as devout Catholics...
I have seen "good" christians behave in very, very unChristlike ways....
So, a long, long time ago, I decided I would always be the best person I could at any given time. I decided I would spend some time, every day, reviewing whether I had held that standard in all of my choices...
I've been pretty good about it...I slip up...when I'm aware of the slip-ups. I do what I can to fix them....
I've done my darndest to teach my children to be the same way....
I have a lot of integrity, and it has gotten me into heaps of troble at times, but it has also won me the respect of many...evn those who don't agree with me, generally respect me....
So, if in the end, God is real, and there is an afterlife, I think I wouldn't mind spending it with like thinkers....
I had asked about this because I had a long chat with a couple of LDS missionaries once and their general message was that unless I seriously considered conversion, I was seriously risking eternal damnation....
My "gut" feeling was that there was a great deal of teaching missing from their message so I kind of wrote it off to their youth, the hot weather and probably the rate of rejection they had experienced in our neighborhood...
I hadn't thought much about that long ago conversation until I started watching "Big Love" and found this site....
Then there is the issue of persons of color.... again, going to my 'roots', my grandmother was a "southern Belle"...very, very old school...born at the turn of the century....lots of classism...or elitism...not so much racism, yet it was there..subtle, but tied into the classist elitism....
And I KNEW she was wrong....and as I am a product of the sixties...born in the early fifties, I was thinking by the time the exposion of liberal thinking hit the media and schools...and I was raised in a very liberal town that housed a Ivy League school....so I had friends of all sorts of persuasions..and I knew folks of all sorts...and I knew that some were decent people and some were not...and some were really anti-social personalities, doomed to hurt folks around them...and color was most certainly not a determinant....
And my children are of all colors...some are biologically mine and some wandered into our family and stayed...and early on the 'brothers' decided to never tell who was who as far as biology went and I've never told...because bottom line, it doesn't matter...they are all mine...and I love each of them for their uniqueness and their wonderful selves....
And then to have a religion tell me that God loves them less because of what color they are, and not what their souls are made up of, is incongruous with an all loving, all caring God....
So anyway...is this color thing an urban myth, or is part of the LDS teaching?
Also, we had a family that lived next door to us for several years and they were LDS and neither parent in that home ever treated my children badly...if anything, they were among the nicest, kindest neighbors we ever had.....
So anyway, I appreciate the time you took to respond...if you are so inclined, I'd like to hear more....
I thank you for being patient with me....
If I've totally screwed up the spelling of things, forgive me....*smile*
Regina

Regina said...

Also, is there a more appropriate place for me to post questions?
I really prefer the ability to have 'dialogue'. There is something terribly disconnected in simply reading information...
But I also realize I just sort of butted in here....
Thank you for any guidance....
Regina

Anonymous said...

Regina

You will get different views on what LDS and FLDS think dependant on whom you talk to. Even two people in the same family will have different views.

The word salvation if it is to be applied to all souls, must simply mean, 'a better end result.'

I believe in mulitple lives.

The best notions you can obtain from any form of LDS doctrine is the notion of Faith, to become directed and motivated by Faith.

Not religion mind you, nor dogma, nor even doctrine, but Faith.

'The just shall live by Faith.'
This is what the spirit said to Brother Luther in the 1500's on the steps of Staint Pauls, when He first went to Roman and witnessed the decandence of unearned wealth and its effect upon the Catholic hierarchy.

So 'Faith' means to believe and to ACT in a manner towards ever growing improvement, light, love , intelligence, and in that which sustains and ennbles all life.

However, you have asked about race.

I am not qualified to answer that question, I have no experience with it, I have never met a black person in my life and have not had the need to study mormon doctrine on the matter.

I will say this.

You cannot train character triats into or out of a spirit over night, or even in one life time.

So if one race of people have conducted their affairs in such and such a way for many centuries, then that is what they will be, and moving them from this or that continent to dwell under with other peoples does not change this fact.

The founding fathers, who wrote, 'we believe that all men are created equal, did not from my reading of their lives and actions, intend that their illiterate slaves should rule as equals with them. That was not their intention at all, one can clearly see that this idea was a later idea.

One must recognize that to take on greater intelligence, is not about theory alone, just employ someone fresh out of colledge raised in a city, versus a hands on farm raised youth and youll see that all the theory in the world does not instill practical usefullness in a person.

So imported peoples of what ever color of non christian background who have lived tribally, without writing, reading, books, mathematics, deep thinking on many levels and issues, Biblical philosphy, voting,turning the other cheek, etc must take whatever time it takes them living under the white man systems to assimilate the white man systems.

The minds of earlier LDS peoples would not have seen the black peoples the same as you see them, all improvements have to be earned.

There are other very pertinant points, but thats enough I think.

Regina said...

Okay....so if I'm understanding you correctly, it's not a matter of skin color so much as a matter of 'where' a person is on the 'steps'..for lack of a better word, toward 'salvation'....
I can live with that....along with so many other things, I've often wondered/thought that there is some credibility to the concept of multiple incarnations....each one progressively 'better' than the others...
From time to time you hear or read about someone who has a sense of who they were in past lives...and for the most part, people 'poo poo' them....but I've always thought there may be some truth lurking....
However, recently I was reading on some site and came across a discussion about racism and Mormonism...and there was something there about a passage from the Bible....not being terribly well versed in the Bible, I can't tell you exactly what or where...but supposedly the passage said something like..."and a darkness was visited upon them..."...and what I was reading said that this meant that the folks of color were damned...that they were bad...and that was the root of 'racism' in Mormon doctrine....
The other thing we know now that we didn't know back in the time of the early founders of Mormonism is that, in fact, the peoples we stole for slaves from Africa, in fact had a highly evolved culture, with very strong families, traditions, philosophies, and so on...the barrier to understanding that was language....and elitism....
I think that the 'failuer' of many organized religions to adapt and change as we learn more is one of the fundamental problems I have with them.
I believe God, or a/the higher being gave us intelligence, and cognitive thinking, for a reason. To me it is to change and adapt as we learn...to always challenge ourselves to learn more...to put what we learn in context...to alter evenour most basic beliefs if the new information debunks those beliefs....
It's the problem I have with folks who, when confronted with bad situations, etc., stand by, do nothing, and say "God will take care of me. Nothing will happen that wasn't meant to happen." I find that simplistic and somehow lazy....If 'God' wanted folks to do nothing, 'God' wouldn't have given us critical thinking and problem solving skills....
Faith is one thing....but not using our inherent intelligence under the guise of Faith is a piece I can't get my thinking around....
We have a church that is LDS in our town....I'm not sure it is a temple...from what I read there is a big difference between church and temple....
So, I'm wondering...can 'outsiders' visit the church? Go inside? attend services? And, can you explain the difference between a church and a temple?
The other question I have is how can anyone, in 2007, go their entire life without having met a person of another race? To me that is mind boggling!
I live in a small town in Pa. When I moved here in 1985 it was predominately, as was the entire area, caucasion....but that didn't mean that local folks hadn't traveled or met other folks....
I can't imagine life without diversity.... I can't imagine life without celebrating diversity...and learning about other cultures and life styles and ways of being....I'm not trying to be critical, I'm truly amazed and truly wondering how it can happen in this day and age of travel and change.....
To me it is almost like the cloistered societies of the Roman Catholic Church....
Anyway, I'm digressing all over the place.....
I appreciate you taking the time to 'talk' with me...your explanations are very understndable and somehow, make the LDS Faith seem not as foreign, to me... reading things, without being able to ask questions about real world applicability is difficult, at best....
Again, thank you, thank you!!!!
Regina

Anonymous said...

If a person truley hates another person of what ever color before they even met them, then they must have anger and hate towards their own selves.

Multiple incarnations.

I am healthly suspicious of any one who says they can remember being Cleopatra or James Dean.

But I do belive it is a fact.

A very useful reference I have found is the works of Doctor Ian Stevenson from the University of Virginia, Division of parapsychology. He has done some serious work on it.

You used the word racism.
I suspect by that you mean disliking a people simply because they are of this or that race. Or perhaps you mean more than disliking, perhaps you mean animosity, but surely you do not mean that any one who loves their own people and wishes to keep their own culture rather than accept a multi-culture is wrong, bad, hateful or in any way other than they should be.

The racist term is actually used often to over turn the soverign desires of a people. It is used to batter people into submission to the multi-cultural ideology.
In every country, this differs according to the history.

Now if I say that the french are arrogant, or that the Germans are abrupt, that the English are whingers, or that the Americans are full of them selves or that the Australians are too laid back, am I being racist or am I intending to state a general character trait of a people. It is overly generalisng I know, but I dont think its a crime.

I also dont think the south were necessarily wrong in the Civil war, a people have a right to bear arms for what they belive in.

But to mistreat or abuse anyone, to not reward fairly for effort, that is a sin.

So the slavery that arose may have been a necessary situation to raise the black people, because they sure as hell didnt glean a lot from Roman and Greek enlightenment which was in the north of Africa for thousands of years.

So perhaps the only way to raise these tribal people was through the slavery system, for until they lived directly under white man control, they did not aspire to take up writting, paper, books, mathematics, science, history, the wheel, bronze, iron, brass, steel, etc etc etc.

Do you see how I do not condemn our for fathers who participated in slavery. It may have been the only way and I know there where many many of them who treated their hirlings as decently as one treats their own children.

So do not condemn them too quickly, they may have been you, certainly your honorable forebears.

You must understand that when the tribes of Africa fought one another they either killed or enslaved their enemies, and that they where often a large part of the slave trade. It was the Bible reading of our forebears that drew us out of the darkness and unto the light and love of God. They did not have this, and many died to take it too them.


I appreciate your general spirit, it feels quite sincere, I do wish you well in what path you must walk.

About visiting LDS chapels.

Yes, anyone is allowed, and the spirit varies between stakes, which are areas that contain a number of chapels. You can visit at 9.00 am on a Sunday and youd be welcomed.

The people are no different than your own society, with a broad spectrum of types.

The difference between a temple and a chapel is that the Temple is set aside as a most Holy place to come before God our Father and seek his spirit, will, advice. Ordinances are performed there and they are considered by Mormons to be sacred. generally speaking they are about lifting the individual out of worldliness and unto Godliness, but unfortunately many consider that they are better people because they have participated in an ordinance, whereas its the inner changes that constitute a real move towards Godliness.

The whole difference between all protestant religions and the LDS church is that the LDS church says you can and you need to become your divine potential through following the example and teachings of Jesus Christ, whereas the Protestant religions will teach you that you are 'saved' if you belive that jesus washed away your sins.

I let you choose which one of those doctrine feels like its from God and conforms with the spirit contained in Biblical writtings.

I'd commit to going to the local LDS church for a month or so,to really see how I felt about it, and pray to see if it was where God said growth would best come about for me at this time.

Regina said...

Again, I thank you for your time.
I talked with a neighbor of mine who is a bit malcontent with the church she is currently attending. She and I are going to go this Sunday to the LDS service and see what we think.
In the meantime, is there any BASIC reading you could suggest that we take a look at? And will the 'service' be self=explanatory? Or is there something that describes what we will experience?
This is actually pretty exciting, for me....I've been floundering for a long time.
I don't know if LDS will be the answer, but on some level, I have made the decision that it is time for me to get back to God....
So thank you, thank you for being patient with me!!!!!
Regina

Anonymous said...

You sound like your in a healthy place Sister, I do wish you well in every sense.

I'll see if I can give you some reasonable thoughts that may be useful without knowing you properly.

Sometimes the chapels have different things on, like conferences and such, so a phone call to the local bishop of the chapel before hand will ensure you dont turn up when things are different to the regular services.
The phone number will be in your local phone book under churches etc.

Recommended reading?

hmmm, that is a good and fair question.

You know what, it is so dependant upon where you are at that I just cant advice you.
Also, a fair few of the mormon teachings are simply not true, and how would you know which ones to trust in?
I know a fair bit, but I was raised in and out of LDS and I cant pass on years of reading and my word would not carry more weight than theirs, and Id rather not turn you away therefrom if its the best spiritual growth available in your area.

I would sugest that you read the Bible, most particularly the 4 Gospels which contain anecdotal on the teachings of Jesus Christ. You see, God did not write the Bible, its a collection of books, written as best as I suppose the writters could.
I purchased one with the words of Jesus in Red, just so that what messages are therein would stand out to me.

I would also read the Bible cover to cover, if I was seeking to know God, examinining the attitudes i find of God and of man towards God.

As you are a sister, I would pay particular note to every reference or narative on all the women spoken of in the Bible, for therein is an attitude quite beautiful which as believers in divine potential we hold, that a woman may rise to take on all the graces and intelligence she is capable of.

The next I would read is the Teachings of the Phrophet Joseph Smith, and the Discourses of Brigham young.
These men were not perfect and should not be worshipped, but they were honest and honorable and more than that, they became of Faith, and pleasing unto God, and in their writtings their is a spirit, Firm unto righteousness, of action, of virtue, of love but not the soppy kind sold from pulpits today. There is an expectation in their words, an outstreached hand, a call that you might rise to what you may.

Unfortunately the present LDS church is full of worldlyness, and the reverance is lacking in many meetings. I am sorry for this, I wish I did not have to fore warn you but it all depends on the local bishop and stake president.

The sacramental meeting is the primary meeting.

It contains 4 hymns usually, and a sacramental ordinance which is designed to instill reverence and remembrance of a members covenants in the waters of baptism to renouce sin and take on Jesus Christ as ones example.

The sacramental prayer is probably the best of any protestant service, in so far as all the mumbo jumbo of the middle ages catholic church has been removed.

I hope you feel of its goodness, participation in the sacrament has done me much good, I do recommend it.

I suppose thats plenty for now.

One other thing.

If you are truely moved of God to make changes towards Him, then you may well encounter oposition.

Best wishes, In Faith.

Regina said...

Thank you, once again...
Sherri, my neighbor who is going to go with me is pretty well versed in the Bible. She's going to pick out a few readings for me....she and I know each other pretty well and her take is that if I do too much, too quickly, I'll get overwhelmed and frustrated and end up not following through on much of anything....and she is probably right....
So anyway...I'm very excited....
I know it sounds silly....
I believe I told you a few posts back that I had neighbors who were LDS a few years ago. I remember when they helped build the Church here in town. Sue was always happy to go be a part of that. I think it was a real sense of community for her....So even though Sue and Mike have moved away, I'm guessing it's many of the same folks.....
Well, I'm babbling...
I'll write to you next Monday and let you know about it.....
I know this 'thread' is worn out, but I don't know where else to post...so until next week.....
I hope you have a good week and restful holiday weekend!
Regina

Anonymous said...

Thanks, I'll look out for your posts.

Anonymous said...

REGINA,

GET A BIBLE...THERE ARE LOTS OF NEW GOOD TRANSLATIONS

READ THE FOUR GOSPELS AND ROMANS-NEW TESTAMENT

BE STILL AND ASKED GOD'S SPIRIT TO OPEN YOUR EYES AND HEART TO THE SCRIPTURES OR GUIDE YOU TO A PERSON WHO UNDERSTANDS THAT GOD/JESUS ARE ONE BEING,AND THROUGH HIS GRACE MADE SALVATION FREE TO YOU IF YOU BELIEVE HE DIED FOR YOUR SINS AND ASK FORGIVENESS.

JESUS/GOD PAID THE PRICE FOR OUR SINS AT THE CROSS...A CROSS YOU WILL NOT FIND IN AN LDS CHURCH.

JESUS SAID I AM THE WAY! I AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.

LDS WILL TELL YOU ....MAYBE.... YOU WILL SEE HEAVEN IF YOU WORK HARD ENOUGH, HAVE FAITH ENOUGH, GIVE ENOUGH MONEY,HAVE A TEMPLE MARRIAGE, AND INCLUDING THE FLDS IF YOU HAVE ENOUGH WIVES AND ARE PERFECT ENOUGH.

THE LDS TEACH THAT JESUS ATONEMENT SAVES EVERYONE, I SAID EVERYONE FROM SPIRITUAL DEATH. WRONG. A LIE.

THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY TO HEAVEN.

THE TRUTH IS JESUS/GOD BLOOD MAKES IT POSSIBLE. A TRUE GIFT OF LIFE.

CALL ON HIS NAME AND ASK FOR HIS FREE GIFT OF SALVATION THROUGH FAITH.

REALIZED YOU ARE A SINNER AND CONFESS YOUR SINS TO HIM. CONFESS YOU BELIEVED HE WAS RAISED FROM THE DEAD AND STILL LIVES.

GOD LOVED YOU SO MUCH HE MADE HIMSELF THE SCAPEGOAT ON THE CROSS IN THE BODY OF JESUS.

THINK.... WHO ELSE CAN BE THE PERFECT SACRIFICE.

NO MAN, NO WOMAN, NO ANGEL.
WE ARE ALL CREATED BEINGS.

GOD STEPPED UP TO HIS HOME PLATE AND MADE A HOME RUN, REMOVING THE STING FROM SPIRITUAL DEATH WHICH IS SEPARATION FROM HIM.

THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS WILL SOMEDAY BE SEPARATED IN THE DEPTHS OF HELL, KNOWS THIS TRUTH AND CONTRIBUTE TO A CHURCH WHICH HAS A COUNTERFEIT JESUS AND GOD.

RUN FROM THE LDS AND THE MORMON BELIEFS... IT IS A DEATH TRAP.

Anonymous said...

Anon 10:23

If you want to catch someones attention whisper, don't scream. Why do you doubt so much Regina's ability to see the truth? If the LDS have nothing for her she will get nothing from them. Why not give her a chance to find out for herself? You are the typical protestant, poisoning the well before others can drink of its purity.

Regina said...

Folks,
I am not an idiot. I was raised for the better part of my youth in the Roman Catholic Church. I was also exposed to various Protestant denominations, including Methodist (grandmother), Presbyterian (grandfather), Lutheran (best friend), and Episcopalian....when I moved to Pa. I joined an Episcopalian congregation that was close to my home and remained a member for about five years...
I am also a well educated professional, capable of making choices and sound reasoning....
Right now I'm pretty sure God is real....but that's about it....
I think I want to be a part of a congregation as much for the fellowship as for the religion. I want to find a group where there is a reasonable high level of thinking and discourse. I want to learn. I figure if I'm to believe on a spiritual level, that will hit me like a ton of bricks when it is time....
On a more humanistic level than spiritual one, I firmly believe that we all have to conscientiously work at being decent people. And that means giving whenever, whatever one is able...for some that may be money...for others it may be time...or a place in your home...
I also believe it is 'okay' to take...but only when you need...not out of greed....
So I'll go to the LDS church, I'll go a couple of times. I'll talk to folks.....if it's comfortable and stimulating, I'll keep returning....If it isn't, I won't go back...pretty simple concept...
I do thank the person who has given so freely of his/her time to help guide me. I also appreciate the fairness and open mindedness this person has shown....
So until I have a chance to start 'seeing' for myself, please don't scream and yell at me...
Regina

ATAR_i said...

Regina,

email me - I'd rather take this offline, is that ok?

atar

Anonymous said...

Hello Regina

I'm the fellow you've been talking to.

I did not write the 7.02 response to the 10.23 posting.

I felt it was as you've put it, and that your quite up to prayfully finding your way.

To have these sincere discussons become of anger or competition would be terrible to me, and I do not wish to be involved in that.

Take care.

bro B

Regina said...

Brother B,
I'm sorry about my last post. I was feeling a bit 'boxed' in. And it felt as though I was somehow caught in an argument that wasn't/isn't mine.
Anyway, I'll write and let you know how things go....
I really do appreciate your guidance...
Sincerely,
Regina

Anonymous said...

WELL REGINA IF MY ALL CAPS ARE SCREAMING SO BE IT.

YOUR LIFE ON EARTH AND AFTER LIFE IS WORTH SCREAMING ABOUT.

Anonymous said...

To Regina, hope you are able to visit LDS church. If you want more info on LDS Church they have a website where you can ask questions, also they have a church locator link where you enter your address and a list of churches and Sunday Service times will be shown.

LDS Ask Question

Or LDS Church

Anonymous said...

I cannot believe that people are so brain washed in the year 2007! Wake up people! There is a new life waiting for you in the real world! Women are beautiful, and fun to look at. There is nothing better than going to the beach, the warm sun, the cool water, and the girls in bikinis! Check it out guys, and girls, don't be silly and stay where someone is telling you what to do, say, or think! I wish you all the best, get out of the hell you live in, and start enjoying the real world!

Anonymous said...

People could do so much more with their lives if they just dropped the religious part. Create an identity for yourself! Don't be part of the herd! The possibilities are endless! Religion is nothing more than a self-working control system for humanity.

Anonymous said...

OH BY THE WAY AMERICA IS FIGHTING A WAR FOR YOU CRAZY PEOPLE !!! HELP OUT YOUR FELLOW AMERICANS, COULD YOU IMAGINE IF WE WERE TAKEN OVER BY ANOTHER COUNTRY THESE CHILDREN AND PEOPLE WWOULD HAVE A REAL WAKE UP CALL, WE ARE AT WAR!!!!!!! WE ARE FIGHTING TO KEEP YOU WACKOS FREE!!!! ALSO YOU ARE CAUSING INNOCENT CHILDREN TO HAVE Fumarase Deficiency!!! YOUR PEOPLE ARE DYING FROM IN-BREEDING!!! GOD IS NOT DOING THIS AS A TEST, IT'S A WAKEUP CALL !!

Anonymous said...

Concerned daughter who posted on 8/12. The three family members you are looking for are doing fine.

http://www.9news.com/news/article.aspx?storyid=21886

onthestreet said...

Nice flicks, pie lot.

Anonymous said...

Hello, I have been investigating the LDS church for membership. I understand the Priest hood and heirachy is the same. Is warren jeffs the proffit or is Lds proffit posisition correct in reguards to the true church? Why was polygamy removed from the LDs org? Please help me to understand.

I have been advised that the flds would be left alone if they were marrying 18 and older women.If they established a private school all on the compound and the students could pass the exit level tests admimistered by state officials once a year. The news coverage is posting many 14 year olds married and pregnamt. Is underage unmarried pregnancy a problem in the FLDS? Are the girls really not incouraged to be educated What is the truth? What is the line between truth and media? Respectfully-- frustranted and searching for the way in tesax.

Anonymous said...

To Anon 4/16/08 8:32 -
The FLDS people are taught that Warren Jeffs is a prophet, but as you read through these posts a decide for yourself. Would a true prophet of God do such things to the Children of God? You get a real sense of Warren when you read "What really happened to Fred M."

Don't confuse the LDS teachings with the FLDS teachings, they are not one in the same.

Anonymous said...

To Anon 4/16/08 8:32 -
The FLDS people are taught that Warren Jeffs is a prophet, but as you read through these posts a decide for yourself. Would a true prophet of God do such things to the Children of God? You get a real sense of Warren when you read "What really happened to Fred M."

Don't confuse the LDS teachings with the FLDS teachings, they are not one in the same.

Josh said...

Hopefully the FLDS church comes to an end completely! They live off of our taxes on welfare! A society that can't sustain itself by itself and mooches off of the US government DOESN'T WORK! Not only that, I've met a few of these kids... they're really stupid and uneducated! It's unbelievable how much they don't know! It's also sick to know that over 20 girls under 16 were pregnant.... probably by their 40 year old husbands!