Saturday, February 17, 2007

Did WJ have a mental breakdown?

This rumor has cropped up from several sources. I know the article in the Deseret News that mentioned his transport two weeks ago to Dixie Regional only stated it was heart problems. Is there more to the story? Perhaps the source of the story would fill us in on the details or confirm that it is a rumor.

125 comments:

ATAR_i said...

I received a private email stating it might have been a suicide attempt - prompted because of a desire to be a martyr.

Something about other incidents at the jail that day which might not have been related, but involving narcotics came up as well.

What have you heard fttc?

ATAR_i said...

Can you imagine being this womans child?

Look at how frustrated the news reporters are - they can barely hold back their remarks. OH my LORD!

Anonymous said...

in order to protect my sources,I wont reveal there identity,but hears what I heard .
Warren was taken to the hospital, having a nervous breakdown.its said,he was hitting his head on the floor, and mumbling;"I'm not A prophet".

he was returned to the mental ward at the prison.

he was observed standing nude,on his cot, staring at the celling .

I also heard that he told some of his disciples "I am not a prophet, nor have I ever been a prophet."

I personally must compromise my low sodium diet, until more data is accumulated.


uncaduff.

ATAR_i said...

Thanks unda -

what is up with the low sodium comment, I can't figure it out.

Anonymous said...

atar_i; I understood it the instant I saw it. He is taking it with a grain of salt.

Anonymous said...

Remember Warren is great at Theater!

ATAR_i said...

brilliant!

wildthangfromCC said...

Oh, ya. He is a master deceiver, just like he accused so many men (Ron Rohbock!) of being. He needs to stay in jail!!

bbgae said...

Holy Cow, Atari! That woman in your news flash almost sounds like the ann. we were debating with on the other thread! Yeeesh! At least anon. agreed to disagree. :)
Was that child walking around with a sign her son? Whomever his parents were, I do not think a protest like that is the place for a child! Talk about bad parenting! He didn't look any older than seven! My daughter is about that age and she doesn't even know what sex is, let alone the many sexual diversities. Did you see him checking out the picture of the two men on the woman's sign?
That women has freedom to protest anything she likes. (Although I personally think it is taking it a bit too far to say that the whole of America is doomed. The whole balance between church and state thing.) Just because they are "sinners" according to some people does not mean they don't deserve the same courtesies as everyone else. But I say again, a protest like that is ABSOLUTELY not a place for children!
Oh, and I saw on the news today that NJ passed the law allowing legal same sex marriages.
I wonder if she needs a ride to NJ?

bbgae said...

ok. I take it back. She is way worse than Anon!

bbgae said...

Do you think if we fax her to Iran or Pakistan, the natives will take her in?

ATAR_i said...

I couldn't stop watching her - she was a train wreck!

But, you've GOT to see the interview with Fox. Ms. Banderas vs. this lady. I've NEVER seen anything like it from a reporter - it was hysterical. I mean totally disconcerting because this lady is having her son stand on the flag, kick it, spit on it...etc.

You know when you have FOX news network defending homosexuals - she has to be bad!

Then, I went into scientology - and OH MY LORD!!!!!! Then I listened to the Jonestown tape, as he's poisoning the people.

I checked out Heavens Gate goodbye tape.

But the scarriests by far, was scientology. They reminded me of really extremist FLDS, except the FLDS don't hunt you down and destroy your life, livelyhood, etc.

And, I finally found out what it's all about. Apparently Xenu, some evil planet warlord collected all the alien space creatures and threw them into a volcano and blew up the volcano with a hydrogen bomb.

The little souls of those aliens called Thetans survived and looked for places to reside, they finally found bodies when humans come. So you have thousands of Thetans inhabiting you at any time. Dianetics and the pricey classes will show you how to rid your body of the Thetans. (isn't that special).

Read about the gal they had for 17 days who they brought to the hospital DOA with a sodium of 180 and a potassium of 13.9. (they had chained her up, and let the cock roaches eat her basically). These guys are WHACKED! (the Lisa McPherson series is 3 parts long - I only linked to the first part)

I guess we're all screwed - we just can't get the thetans out.

bbgae said...

Good Grief! I'm glad they found a way to sue that lady for what she was doing. Hopefully that will keep her from attending quite so many military funerals. When I first saw the film, I thought the soldier might have been a homo, but when I realized she was just taking her hate out on an innocent grieving family I was fried! I think the dad of the boy that died handled it pretty well. I have never seen a reporter completely loose her professionalism like that! But, then again, only FOX will call two people yelling at each other news.

You are right about the Thetans. The world is in serious trouble. Gasp! I think I felt one just now!....LOL

You are right, Scientology IS creepy! BTW- thanks for choosing the South Park film to explain it. My husband walked in just as I started running it and we both laughed our heads off! And I know this was not your intent, but that last little bit on that clip about Tom Cruise and Oprah was very enlightening. We had both missed it and now we understand and appreciate the wierd ending to Scary Movie 4.

FLDS is not like Scientology. That being said, and since we are on the subject on foreign entities entering human bodies, I think you will like this. This is what I was taught.

One upon a time long ago in a galaxy far away on the planet of Kolob, God was finishing his plans for Earth. He needed a way for his children to find their way back to Him. Lucifer (the devil, the Morning Star) volunteered to come down to Earth as the savior and force everyone into obdience. Jesus offered to die for them and pay the price for their sins. God accepted Jesus' plan, and denied Lucifer. There was a war in heaven. All God's spirit children who sided with Lucifer were cast out of heaven to wander the earth aimlessly, forever denied the privelage of having a body and the oppertunity to become Gods one day. There were some of God's spirit children who did not fight on either side. They were called fence sitters- later to become the "cursed" black race. I will not go into the rest of that because it is complete crap and very bigoted and hateful. (I consider myself color blind when it comes to people. I see the person, not the color.) Anyway, the faithful spirit children, the ones who had fought for Jesus, were then allowed to come down to Earth and try to work out their salvation. The Spirit of God and the spirits of the devils can each work on the spirit of man (his soul). If you sin, or are not perfectly obdient to your priesthood head- the very means of which you recieve the spirit of God and thus your salvation- you have an evil spirit, and you should go pray and ask the Lord to take it from you. You can also command them to go away by saying "Get thee behind me, Satan!" They have to obey you, because you have a body, and they do not. So, basically if you do not do what people think you should in the FLDS, you are full of evil spirits. But, at least they don't believe the evil spirits can enter an innocent body for no reason, like in the Exrocism of Emily Rose.
Between the evil spirits and the thetans, we are definitely in trouble!

ATAR_i said...

Lots of stuff about planets - Hale Bopp, Kolob, Thetans, Xenu - I think I'm going to specialize in alien archaelogy.

: )

I'm totally addicted to youtube now.

Anonymous said...

But the scarriests by far, was scientology. They reminded me of really extremist FLDS, except the FLDS don't hunt you down and destroy your life, livelyhood, etc.

Atar_i are you sure about this?

Anonymous said...

bbgae

i am confuzed?

You said the FLDS beleive "Jesus offered to die for them and pay the price for their sins and

then you said "The Spirit of God and the spirits of the devils can each work on the spirit of man (his soul). If you sin, or are not perfectly obdient to your priesthood head- the very means of which you recieve the spirit of God and thus your salvation- you have an evil spirit, and you should go pray and ask the Lord to take it from you."


Which is it? Jesus or Priesthood gives the salvation. Can't have both.

Anonymous said...

Perhaps ole Warren is thinking of useing an insanity defense to avoid having to go to prison. This was used successfully in the case of polygamists Mitchell & Barzee. Just get your self declared mentally incompetant, you end up in mental hospital as patient instead of inmate in the prision, as one poster pointed out WJ is great at theater.

Mitchell & Barzee were charged in kidnapping a 14 year old girl as a plural wife in 2002, read article which details kidnapping and use of insanity defense to avoid trial & prison: Polygamy Kidnapping

hydrolab said...

Here is more pending litigation for WJ

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,253284,00.html

ATAR_i said...

Anon - you're right, I spoke out of turn. I suspect that if you were female and you left they would hunt you down. I haven't heard of them coming after regular detractors, but I could be wrong about that.

But Scientology hires investigators to follow detractors around (who may have never been a scientologist) and dig up 'dirt' on them.

To this end, they have revealed private medical records, bugged phones, loosened the nuts on cars etc.

At their top level, ex-scientologists have revealed that they used any means. Breaking the law, encouraging members to break the law, bearing false witness, encouraging members to bear false witness.

They have, not unlike other religions, a confessional. But the confessions are hand written and saved in a file. So that, should you ever leave, that file, and all the wrongdoings in the past they have asked you to do, will keep you from revealing things about scientology that are untoward.

They treat people who are in their group in the same manner, using blackmail in an attempt to silence.

They launched an sophisticated and vicious attack on the internet. They flooded search engines so users could not find the information they wanted, they've shut down websites using lawsuits, raided critis homes, more private investigators, Pressured ISP's, driven 'cult awareness networks' into bankruptcy and then purchased them and OPERATE them, mass cancelled usenet postings.

They have operations

Like Operation Cancelbunny - to cancel posts agains scientology on a usegroup. It is still active today.

Operation Raid - they raid internet users homes seizing computers and disks from the owners of a bulletin board system and his ISP.

Operation Anonymous Remailer - suing and squashing and attacking companies who allow anonymous postings to religious usenet groups, and FORCING them to reveal the identity of specific users

Operation Spam Attack - scientology bombards the BBS with thousands of spam messages.

Operation Netizen - scientology sends numerous emails to net users thretening litigation for publishing even short exerpts of scientology's copyrighted material (despte the fact that copyright law allows for such exerpting). They emailed, use phone calls, and investigators

I guess I'm getting a real education in relgious extremeism. You think it's only you, or the thing you know, but it's happening all over.

ATAR_i said...

HYDROLAB - keep us informed - let us know if it works. I hope it does.

bbgae said...

They didn't track this female down and try to make her return!

Anon.10:57- Excellent question! Excellent point. I agree that it cannot be both.

For myself, personally, the answer is neither, although I will admit to leaning strongly toward Jesus. Maybe with a little time I'll get there. Who knows?

But since you asked, I will explain to you the thinking behind it.

God is priesthood. Priesthood is God. A man who holds the priesthood has the power of God and the God given right to rule. (Talk about an ego trip!)

Young boys recieve the priesthood at twelve. After they do, they are no longer under the jurisdiction of their mother(s). Because he holds the priesthood, he is to report directly to his father until he turns eighteen and recieves (hopefully) a higher priesthood making his priesthood head the prophet and his father his 'priesthood' brother. There is a saying among the FLDS- "There is no such thing as 'comming of age' in God's work. You will always have to obey someone. Even the prophet obeys God as strictly as we are required to obey him." Now, if the Father is gone all hours of the day and night working to provide for the family and working for the prophet to prove his faithfullness that leaves the young boys virtually to their own devices. They can get into all sorts of trouble and they do not particularly have to obey their own mother(s) or any female babysitters. Sure, they have to obey the house rules, like take off your shoes while walking on the carpet, etc., but if their mother(s) ask them to do anything or suggest that perhaps they should not do what they are doing, all the boy has to do is say "Father told me to," and she cannot question it. Yes, I have huge issues with this one, in case you can't tell.

But I have wandered from the subject. In order to understand the relationship between God and priesthood, you also need to understand the FLDS Trinity.

God- Jesus' son who has obtained his Godhood through living a faithfull life on Kolob. He is the archangel, Micheal, also Adam. Same person, diferent names.

Jesus- Jehovah, our spiritual grandfather.

Holy Ghost- Joseph Smith spiritual son of Adam, or Micheal the same as everyone else sent to live on Earth except for Jesus and Adam. God knew he was pure before sending him to Earth and granted him instant Goodhood.

Now, there is a difference between the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Ghost. They are two different things. The Holy Ghost, is, of course, Joseph. The Holy Spirit is an natural resource. It's what gives the priesthood it's power. It's what makes the Trinity one. Three different men then are the same because they all are filled with the Holy Spirit, or, the Spirit of God. Since the Holy Spirit gives the priesthood it's power, that also explains the positions of the Gods. Jesus is the priesthood head over Adam, He holds a higher priesthood, and Adam has to obey Him. Adam is the priesthood head over Joseph. He holds a higher priesthood and Joseph must obey Him. Joseph passed his priesthood to the successive prophet, who then passed it on also, and so on. Therefore, the current Prophet is God to the people. They must obey him perfectly. They can only recieve the Holy Spirit through him, and only when they have kept it for a long time through perfect obdience are they allowed hope of salvation.

There is something else, too. When Jesus payed for the sins of the world, he was really paying for Adam breaking an eternal law that put all mankind under a curse. Adam was a God. He wasn't mortal. When he came down to the garden of Eden, he broke an eternal law and all his children were cursed because of it. It's kind of like science. If something is blue, it cannot be green. If Adam was a God, he couldn't be mortal. But when he partook of the forbidden fruit he sinned, he acted against God, and became mortal. So... technically, the price Jesus paid was not for our individual sins, but for our mortality. That leaves man with the burden of his own sins which he can only repent of through perfect obdience to the priesthood. The Spirit of God is then like some magic element that will save you and work miricles if you obey so you can recieve it.

I personally belive that this priesthood crap is entirely too much power for a man to wield. It goes to his head and he takes an ego trip. My 'ex-husband' was one of these. I will say that have known men that can handle it fairly well, however. Nevertheless, it suddenly becomes the All Powerfull Man, instead of the All Loving God. I have known men who use it to make thier wives and children do anything- even things they were taught were wrong. It opens the door to all kinds of sh--. The man can say, "I have the priesthood, and I command you to have sex with me." and there is nothing ( technically) the woman can do about it, but submit. Things like that....

ATAR_i said...

Wow, that is different.

Anonymous said...

So..... bbgae

You would think if Adam was a God and performed his Priesthood duties thus becoming Mortal, bringing one of his wives (EVE) to earth to populate, you would of thought he would known better than to SIN.

So Jesus was paying for a god (Adam) SINS. OUCH.

Anonymous said...

bbgae,

I had a hard time reading all you wrote. It sounds like you got holier teachings that I got. Strange how I can't handle that type of talk without getting a headache now, but I used to swallow it without question.

After I "apostatized", I was trapped in a circumstance (didn't ride in my own car) where I had to listen to Ross LeBaron's priestood views for an hour and I got a headache. Another individual literally took an aspirin afterwards. I got thinking--"this man makes just as much sense as what I have been taught all my life." Trying to figure out who the Father was and whether or not he was his own grandfather, and how a man (Joseph) could also be a spirit that permeates space also makes ones head spin, only when I was in, I simply accepted it. Once you leave, anybody's priesthood views makes one's head spin. The stranger and more esoteric the doctrine, the more pressure is put on you. "You will apostatize if you don't believe it"; yet it made no sense.

It seems that we got more caught up with strange doctrine and intimidation of "you will apostatize if you don't accept this" than "an honest day's pay for an honest day's work. Treat all men as equal. Pay your debts. Work among the 'Gentiles' honorably and don't make the church support you. Don't bite off more than you can chew." Where did common sense go? Sure, they still put on a fascade of these type of sayings when accused of being dishonest with "Gentiles", etc, but as one person wrote, "your actions speak so loudly, I can't hear what you are saying."

bbgae said...

Anon 5:43- Thanks for that. It made me laugh. Ouch is right! ('Eve' supposedly means plural. Do you think he could possibly survive an entire life time with only one woman when he has thousands or more at his disposal for all eternity?) :)

Anon 5:44- I guess the longer you stay, the 'holier' your teachings. :)You think you had a hard time reading it? I had a hard time writing it!

Isn't it great to be free!

No man is EVER going to tell me how to find God again!

Anonymous said...

http://www.shieldandrefuge.org/topics.htm

Anonymous said...

5:44 that was a great response. How long have you been out?

bbgae said...

5:44 & 9:00- If you don't believe that is the stuff they are teaching now-a-days out there, just ask fttc, furnace, and iitmoc. I was a child when you left,5:44. Too bad I didn't get to know you until now!

8:13- It's been awhile since I've been to that site. They added a few new parts. I can tell you are a good person trying to help. Trying to make a difference. I appreciate and respect that. I really do. But I think you missed the full meaning of my last line in my 6:03.

NO MAN is EVER going to tell me how to find God again. And I meant it.

I do not need to belong to any church to read the Bible. I do not need anyone to tell me what it means. I am an intelligent adult fully capable of figuring it out for myslef. Look at all the different religions on the face of the Earth. Many of them use the Bible to justify their religious rites and religious behavior. They all claim to be the "right" one. All of them have read and know the bible- look at the result of their different views and interpretations- thousands of churches and religions and gospels. So, who is right?

That's for each of us to decide for ourselves. And once we do decide, we should stick to it.

I have serious trust issues when it comes to religions and gospels. But I also respect every individual person for the unique individual they are and I respect their right to follow what they think is true. Religion is just not for me. :)

And, for the record, I am not a victim. So I was born into an unlucky begining. So what? At least I was born. At least I had a happy childhood. At least my parents REALLY loved me. It wasn't until later that things really started to suck. I was seperated from the man I loved and forced to become the spiritual wife of an a------. So what? I am not the only person on the face of the world who has lost someone they loved. I am not picked on. I left that jerk of a 'husband' before he could do me too much harm. I call THAT lucky. I got married to another man who is absolutely the best thing that ever happened to me. I call THAT LUCKY. So, I kept trying to live a strange religion and had a few dificulities with my husband. Who doesn't have an occasional spat with their spouse? I'll bet- no one. Ok, so, with me it was more than an occasional spat. I came as close a thread to leaving that wonderfull man and that led to us being asked to leave. And guess what? My wonderfull husband forgave me when no one else would. I call THAT lucky. There is no such thing as happily-ever-after. Literally. We have to make our own happiness. I did. If it hadn't been that I had been in love, and then married to jerk, if it hadn't been for nearly leaving my other husband and a myriad of other things, I wouldn't be here today. I am happy with my life. I have faced my deamons. And I won! I call that lucky. I call that blessed. I am not a victim.

bbgae said...

I am a survivor! :)

Anonymous said...

bbgae, ii:34. you got an advanced course
in priest craft,you have a positive outlook,and you have the rest of your life ahead of you.I'd say you were lucky.
uncaduff.

Anonymous said...

Dear bbage

Following Jesus is not a religion, or a cult.

It is really simple. Not complicated at all.

I bet you have trust issues.

But search out the REAL JESUS, all I ask.

Read the Bible and I will pray, you will find the WAY.

He loved you first.

advise from a woman

bbgae said...

2:06- :)

bbgae said...

FTTC-Sorry. I sort of monopolized your thread and brought it off subject. I'll bring it back to the topic of the title, now. :)

I agree with you people that Warren is a master deciever. I really, really hope he doesn't plead insanity and win because I can just see him "wandering" off the funny farm because of a "dilusional mental state" or a hallutionation and then mysterously popping back up in South Dakota or somewhere like that and continue his reign of terror. The faithfull would of course, be told nothing about the insanity claims- just that he had been delivered by God- and they would believe it, too, because they wouldn't see anything about it on the news. Or, if they did, they wouldn't believe it was true. It would be the perfect ending to a nightmare.

I started to see some of the things he was doing for what they really were just before I left.

Like stopping meetings and public gatherings and then playing "Musical Houses". Why? I think it was to keep the people confused as to where their friends and family members were. If there wasn't church every Sunday, no one would notice why this family suddenly dissappeared, or that family never showed up any more (because they were in Texas). It also made him free of the obligation to conduct meetings and he could hide out in his own little compound- Warren World. And if the families were no longer at their houses I'm sure the faithfull just assumed that maybe they got given another home somewhere else. (And not even know how right they really were!) I think he will only take the families he likes and leave the rest to their fate in the crumbling remains of Colorado City.....

I remember reading about the temple in Texas in the news paper when I was still living out there and I was so mad. I wondered how it could be so special and so secret and have it be known to the "Gentile's" news papers and not Warren's faithfull whom he supposedly "loved" so much!

Anonymous said...

bbgae:
Sounds like you went through the wringer...quite something that you came out the other side intact, or at least whole enough to type.

I've been long time gone, left before Rulon, so the stories I hear about CC are strange and do not seem real. There is very little that I can relate to from my own experience. I've heard a lot of rumors and hear-say about what has been going on with warren, and your account above marks the first time I've heard first hand what a woman has actually gone through. It sounds like it was as bad as the rumors, maybe worse.

LTG

Anonymous said...

bbgae - interesting information, I wondered how the 'new zion' went over in CC - and what people were told.

Do the women communicate?

atar

bbgae said...

Atar- Not any more, they don't!

But they used to.
When I was little, the phone would ring all the time with news of what was happening. The good things and the scandals. "So-and-So's third son is going to marry So-and-So's oldest daughter tomorrow." And then everyone would compare notes about how the couple got along together and how well they suited one another (or didn't) and all that sort of gossip. There were pranks played on the newly wed couple- everything from short sheeted beds, to beds filled with rice, to a dead deer in the bed. (yes, this really happened.) But it was only a few years into Rulon's reign before he told the people to not talk about weddings and those kinds of things. I think that was the begining of the whole "Sacred things are secret things- to be kept secret" kind of thinking. So, the gossip died down for a couple of weeks but that was all. When it returned, we didn't hear about the wedings until after they happened most times. The immediate families were the only ones allowed to know and they were strongly warned against saying anything until after the wedding took place. This was the way it was most of the time I lived there. Then, it was "Someone saw So-and-So HOLDING So-and-So's hand. They then got into a car TOGETHER and drove off. They must have been married last week when 'Uncle' Rulon was down..." I had a sister and her Mother-in-law who always seemed to know the dirt before everyone else, and I would call them up if I wanted to know anything. It was durring Rulon's time too, when he started telling the people to not talk to their 'wicked apostate' realitives. He was worried information about the court stratigies we heard about in meeting would be convied to them and they would out maneuver us in a counter attack. This was when they were in court for the right to remain in their own homes. And supposedly they knew whenever we were asked to fast and pray that the Lord would rule in 'our' favor. That is what eventually evolved into the total estrangement of 'unworthy' children and family members. It wasn't until Warren took over that things started to get really wierd. The statue they errected to honor their faithfull grandparents who had survived the 1953 raid was declared an idol and good men started to loose their families without any explaination at all. always before, there was a reason- he'd cheated, or looked at a porn magazine, or declared he was against the prophet. I was there at that last meeting when Warren told the people the Lord was angry with them for idol worship and He was going to withold His blessings. (Funny how certain people still got married after that.)I had only been going to church for the last several years to 'keep up appearances' so we could stay in our house. We didn't have the money back then to get an appartment in St. George. When the meeting was finished, all the women were crying. The men were trying grimly and akwardly to comfort them, but every face I saw looked devistated. I ran into an old acquaintance in the hall on my way out amid the general crush (I have NEVER heard such silence in the halls after church), and we both smiled and exchanged polite greetings. OH my word! EVREY eye was on me for that! I started to hear whispers and murmers like "That's the way to keep sweet", and "She must really be a saint. She is smiling.", and "See, dear, you have nothing to worry about. We'll all go home and repent and things will be back to normal before you know it." I kept right on smiling because I couldn't bear the look of pain on every single face and when I smiled, they would smile back and look a little less gloomy. Also, it was all I could do to keep from laughing out loud. They thought I was a saint? If they only knew my smile was from pure relief that I didn't have to go to church any longer! The only thing left for the people was Saturday project meetings. We were supposed to go every Saturday to prove our faithfullness. We couldn't go because we both worked durring those times. My father-in-law came by because he'd noticed we hadn't been comming and he was worried about us. He told us Warren had people taking notes of who attended and who did not. But that didn't matter to us, because neither my husband or I could afford to loose our jobs over saturday meeting, and we both weren't so sure we wanted to be faithfull any longer. So, I asked my sister what they said in Saturday meetings, but she refused to say anything and looked at me like I'd grown two heads and they both replused her. Always before if you missed a meeting, you could ask anyone what was said and they would tell you. Not any more! I was a little worried something new would be told and I would unknowingly make a mistake when I went to the store or something...Like the thing about not wearing red. I was able to get my sister to tell me they'd said not to wear hearts or decorate anything with hearts anymore because a heart was the symbol of lust, but that was all she would say. And then, the town became a ghost town. It was eerie. Like unundead community. Places that were normally filled with the happy bustle of life had a scant showing of anyone at all. The day cares all closed because something was said about the wickedness of women working, and I had to take my children to St. George so I could still work. They didn't say anything to me, it was just one day, "We are closing forever now. Sorry for the inconvience it may cause you." But it was obvious why. Families were disapearing left and right, but no one knew anything about it. There was not a breath of anything. Warren must have threated them with something awfull to finally put an end to all the gossip in the entire town his father and the former prophet had tried to quiet for so many years and had been unsuccessfull in doing.
I personally think the 'lifting up' is what happens to the people who get relocated. No suicide, no airplane to take them away, no end of the world (the temple was not supposed to be built until AFTER the destructions!), they just simply get "saved."

Anonymous said...

What's worse than all this insanity is the comment I heard from one individual "What Warren's doing is the Courage of Heaven. A normal man wouldn't dare do such things."

That's one way to explain away weirdness.

bbgae said...

Yes.
But they were right, you know. A normal man wouldn't molest his nephews and get away with it. A normal man isn't revered as a God by thousands of people for causing them misery and suffering. i could go on and on with this....

Anonymous said...

Courage of haven??????,sounds more like the recklessness of insanity!

feralfem said...

bbgae,

My question is, how does anyone get married now that Warren is incarcerated? Isn't he the one and only man who has the keys - the authority - to conduct the marriage ceremony?

bbgae said...

You are right. No one but Warren has the authority. I don't honestly know the answer to that one. I've been our for three years- before he was caught.
Consider this: Who married all his wives to him if he was the 'Prophet' and the only one with the keys and authority? I know his father used to deligate the power to seal temporarily to the fathers of the girls HE married. And, Warren preformed ceremonies with deligated authority BEFORE his father died. Both of my 'weddings' were preformed by Warren with Rulon sitting in a chair, listening. Someone, somewhere has to have deligated authority if there are still marriages happening while he is in jail.

Anonymous said...

Ahhhh, the downfall of "The One Man Doctrine."

bbgae said...

....unless Warren had a steady stream of co-ed visitors.... which I doubt.

Anonymous said...

bbgae
I personally think the 'lifting up' is what happens to the people who get relocated. No suicide, no airplane to take them away, no end of the world (the temple was not supposed to be built until AFTER the destructions!), they just simply get "saved."

Yep, "saved" to be "slaves" 24/7.

Anonymous said...

bbgae:

please look up "paragraph" in the dictionary.

~schumuck

bbgae said...

Schumuck- LOL. Yes, I know I deserved that one. Sorry. :)

Anonymous said...

I found this the Scientology Episode of South Park. It won't be here long - every place I've even seen snips of it, it has been taken down in the short time I've actually been looking.

But here it is. Have to confess, I haven't really ever watched South Park - but this episode is hysterical.

atar

Anonymous said...

Well there is a Mormon version of South Park also. But it is hard to find. It is a hoot too.

Anonymous said...

Here it is

South Park Mormon episode

atar

Anonymous said...

OK, one question

If Adam and Eve came from Missouri - did they take a boat back to the middle east/africa?

Because, they needed to be over there, so that they could take a boat trip back over HERE again.

I just don't get the logic of the story

TBM - perhaps you can tell me how LDS makes this work.

atar.

Anonymous said...

atar..think Noah's ark?

ATAR_i said...

So...the story is, Adam and Eve here, in Missouri.

Then, Noahs Ark to .... Israel....

Then, back on a boat here to South America.

Can I have your address - I have a bridge for sale, and I think it would be perfect for you.

TBM said...

It's not something the LDS dwell on very much at all. But yes, I believe the doctrine is that Noah sailed eastward to the Holy Land.

bbgae, interesting to read of your experiences. It sounds like things have changed quite a lot since the FLDS split away.

Anonymous said...

Sailed? I don't think so. No sails or rudder on the Ark.

Sorry

TBB

Anonymous said...

Can I have your address - I have a bridge for sale, and I think it would be perfect for you.

So you are the one that got stuck with that bridge... muahahahahaha.

Maybe you should talk to Mr Wisan about including it in todays auction.

Anonymous said...

atar,ya the ark thing wuz it,incidentally thats what happened to the dinosuars,Noah's other boat hit a mine in the Persian gulf.

orig. ark anon.

Anonymous said...

TBM 2/27/2007 2:56 AM said...

It's not something the LDS dwell on very much at all. But yes, I believe the doctrine is that Noah sailed eastward to the Holy Land.

No, it doesn't seem like the LDS dwell on much of anything that sounds absurd, irrational or impossible to believe (stupid).

Wonder why? Hmmmm.

TBM said...

About as irrational as a Jewish guru coming back to life having been crucified, and that as a result, in some way that nobody can explain, this makes the whole human race immortal.

Anyway, I thought people like you figured everything Mormon was "absurd, irrational or impossible to believe." I guess we must never talk about anything, ever, at all.

Anonymous said...

OH, touche! Nice one, TBM!

Anonymous said...

www.telladf.org/UserDocs/HolmAmicus.pdf.



THANK YOU ALLIANCE DEFENSE FUND

Attorneys with the Alliance Defense Fund filed a friend-of-the-court brief January 12, 2007 with the U.S. Supreme Court on behalf of the Family Research Council, arguing that the court’s 2003 decision in Lawrence v. Texas does not support a constitutional right to polygamous relationships.

bbgae said...

I guess that effectively dismisses the whole "he did it before it was against the law (not meaning Rodney H.) plea.

They need to decide just how far back the rules apply.

Is it left up to the individual judges to decide?

Doesn't it seem like they are making new laws so they can proscute?

ATAR_i said...

Once we each stop believing that we can convert each other to the others way of thinking it will probably stop.

: )

Anonymous said...

I can't seem to type anything if I'm logged in.

Anonymous said...

TBM said...

About as irrational as a Jewish guru coming back to life having been crucified, and that as a result, in some way that nobody can explain, this makes the whole human race immortal.


Not everyone believes that story either.

Please keep in mind that the whole human race does not necessarily believe in Christianity, TBM

Just because YOU believe it ... does NOT make it so.

ATAR_i said...

I have to say, poster above has an excellent point, and it accentuates what TBM has been saying...it's about faith.

To an extent, that has to be true.

But it get's rather tricky, as most faiths would agree that faith in the 'true God' is important.

You can build a gold calf, or diefy a man, but if it's not true, the results are not positive for the believer.

How do we find the 'true God' to worship? How do we know which religion is right? HUGE QUESTION - I think we all agree. No one wants to worship or trust in something FALSE - correct.

I guess I would ask myself is it from God or man? I think scientology would definately qualify as something from man.

Then if a religion claims to be from God, God would be all knowing, all seeing. You can tell if something is of God or not (like a prophecy). If the prophecy is wrong, or doesn't come true - then the prophet is not of God.

But - that doesn't mean the religion is not 'of God', unless the religion endorses that prophet as 'the one'. IF they endorses prophet who is wrong - THEN of course THEY are wrong, or at least that part of their theology is wrong - which brings into question ALL of their theology.

So - I would ask myself if that has ever been the case.

Then, I would look at the teachings of my faith. If they CAN BE disproven, and proved to be FALSE TEACHING - then you have to look at the legitimacy of the teachings and the faith.

The rest is faith. But if it can be disproven - you run the risk of believing in a false god. Had you been born in a different family - would your faith still be the same.

Are you believing because it is familiar - or because it is TRUE.

If you seek for the answers, seek for God - you will find him.

bbgae said...

Excellent post, Atar!

I think, the person must first want to know the truth for themselves bad enough that they are willing to look at the facts and accept what those facts mean, reguardless of what anyone says or what the person him/herself believes. That is a hard thing to do for some of us, because it requires giving up a certain ammount of pride. It is so much easier to just do something because you were taught all your life it was right, and your parents and the people who teach you in church are good people and would never lie to you. Right? That kind of thinking can be like a trap for some people and they do not stop and consider if the people they trust took the time themselves to examine if what they were teaching was true.

Then again, truth is a precepiton based on the individual's view point. Ultimate and pure truth is unattainable. Fact can prove some truths, but not completely.

I really feel for the people still in C.C. They have put their whole trust in something that will unltimatly end in hurting them. It's hard to admit you placed your trust in someone you should not have and even harder to try and trust again. And the harder outside people try to persuade them the more they cling to what they know and believe. I think that is true with everyone. We all get defensive when our beliefs are challenged.

I thank God my first 'husband' was such a jerk because that was what started me thinking about what was really going on. My inner compass was screaming at me. It was a long, slow process, but here I am, and I cannot regret what happened to bring me here. I wish sometimes it might have been accomplished differently, but, maybe, this was the only way it could have. I certainly would never have chosen things to go the way they did but maybe that was unavoidable for the outcome that I have now.

Maybe with time, the people left in C. C. because they were unworthy and all the others who experienced something that hurt them will get thinking something is not quite right. Maybe, one day soon they will realize just how lucky they really are that the did not get "saved."

Once that first little thought that something is not quite right starts to nag at your concience, it's not long until there is a crack of sunlight streaming through, and then a few bricks start to tumble down, and pretty soon, the whole wall of lies is nothing but a smoking pile at your feet and you can breathe the fresh air of freedom! And, boy, is it sweet!

Anonymous said...

when is warrens trail?

Anonymous said...

Warren's trial is scheduled to start April 23rd and go for 2 weeks

ATAR_i said...

bbgae

At the time it's happening, you think to yourself how awful it is that such pain has befallen you.

But, I think God is faithful, to provide us with experiences that bring us to himself, if we have ears to hear and a heart that is open.

I still don't know which house of worship my God resides in, but I know he's inside me.

bbgae said...

I argee at the time you don't realize it and all you can feel is the pain and confusion.

God IS faithful.

He is inside of me, too. And I know He loves me. And I know He loves everyone. And that feels So GOOD! So, I cannot dislike anyone. I can't. I know what it feels like to think there is no hope of redemption and then to expierence true love. If God can do that for me, why should I dislike anyone? He doesn't.

ATAR_i said...

OK - I'm not that good. There was a time in my life when I couldn't go for a nice drive in the woods without thinking about what a wonderful place to hide a body that would be.

I surely can severly dislike people. Usually because they are cruel. I can bear cruelty to myself, but when I see it done to others, and I watch fragile people wither under a cruel individual.

I'm not certain what little switch gets flipped in my brain, but it does, and I come out, come alive.

It started when I was little with my sisters. My older sister, fragile and soft emotionally, and my younger sister, mentally handicapped. I was always the one who stood up and defended them.

TBM said...

Please keep in mind that the whole human race does not necessarily believe in Christianity, TBM
With due respect 11.07, while you make a valid point, I don't see how it's relevant. 11.22 called Mormon beliefs "irrational". I responded by pointing out that Christian beliefs can be characterized as being just as irrational -- what has the fact that not all people are Christians have to do with anything?

Atar_i: I think your question about "truth" based on the accuracy of prophecies is a little simplistic. I'll admit it can easily be used as a criticism of Mormonism, but most if not all Mormon prophecies are conditional. Sometimes the conditions are given at the time the prophecy is given, but the Doctrine and Covenants makes it clear that any prophecy is dependant on one's faithfulness and obedience to the commandments: "I the Lord am bound when you do what I say. When you do not what I say, you have no promise."

It's something that used to bother me when I was younger. "Where's the warranty?" I would always ask, meaning, What guarantee did I have that the Lord could even be trusted not to lie or play sucker-games with me.

It all comes down to one's testimony, which is not a "fact" by scientific standards, in that a testimony cannot be measured and compared to other testimonies. But any Mormon who has one will assure you of its reality, and it's facile for anybody who has no experience of having a testimony to arbitrarily dismiss such arguments (however frequently it might happen).

I DO think that's why the Mormons of various varieties tend to manifest such unity and discipline, compared with Christians who don't generally seem to take a lot of notice of their leaders' counsel. Mormons don't encourage a fact-based quest for the truth (the ineffectuality of which has been amply demonstrated through countless centuries of argument without consensus), but a spirituality-based quest, which seems much better at producing conviction.

Whether that conviction amounts to "truth" is, of course, a matter of faith.

ATAR_i said...

But TBM - I think that the gospel IS simple.

A 'Let the children come unto me' - 'you must be like a child' simplicity. As adults we want to make heaven exclusive, difficult to get into, something that only special people can attain. A relationship with God beyond the capabilities of a man of impoverished morals or spirit. THAT - is not the God of the Bible. It's a country club for the pious and reminiscent of the pharisees.

I honestly do not think the heart of God is in that sort of complexity.

That's not a slam on mormonism, many churches, and denominations make spirituality something that becomes about work, and actions, complex theology and doctrines.

I live my life to please my lord, but he loves the unrepentent sinner beside me just as much, and if that sinner confess his sins one moment before the end of his life, that man will sit with my father in heaven for eternity.

Anonymous said...

atar_i you post is excellent.

so very simple..for God so loved the world He gave His ONLY begotten Son, so those who believe in Him shall not perish, but have everylasting LIFE. john 3:16

one of the thieves on the cross next to Jesus realized that.

the scripture said "believe".

the devil trips folks up with making them think they have to earn or work for salvation.

it is the devils ultimate lie.

tbm read hebrews. i dare you.

Anonymous said...

what was the sermon on the mount if not a lecture about the works of the people? am i to take pauls word over jesus'?

Anonymous said...

Your works before you are saved are as dirty rags to God

However, works do come in to play AFTER you are saved.

You are saved to DO good works.

Certainly not because of them.

If you are doing good works to make sure you are "still" saved or to get you into heaven you are doing them for the wrong reasons.

You do good works because you love Jesus and are grateful to God for his gift of salvation.

All else is dirty rags.

Isa 64:6 KJV
(6) But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Anonymous said...

So is Isaiah greater than Christ also?

ATAR_i said...

It's all scripture, the word of God. God is the author, Isaiah was the vessel.

A byproduct of a soul saved by grace is living a life that is pleasing to God, and being in submission to the father.

However, living by all appearances as an upstanding, moral person, does not make you saved. The byproduct of a 'sweet life' cannot save your soul.

Anonymous said...

very truly spoken atar. as far as you went. jesus was baptized of john to show the example for all men. just to accept jesus into your life is not enough either. if the ordinances are not complied with all of our works are in vain. my point has been that it is all works. even the act of accepting jesus into your life is a work. there is no question that jesus will be the final judge.

TBM said...

Well, 11.19, I believe in Christ. So I guess I'm saved. With all my dirty rag works. Why do you have such a problem with my works?

TBM said...

living by all appearances as an upstanding, moral person, does not make you saved

But Atar_i, surely you believe God is just? If God commands us to live the Golden Rule, and then gives us the same credit as the most dispicable egocentric, how is that just?

If any human displayed those qualities, you'd say that person was a thankless ingrate, rude even. How do you reconcile the perfect god with such flawed characteristics?

bbgae said...

Maybe God is not perfect...

Maybe, we only like to think He is...

Maybe, that's why we're human and have flaws. He is, after all, our Father, supposedly.....

But, as a parent can you honestly want to be seperated indeffinatlly from any of your childrn, no matter how naughty they are? As parent, I don't, and I don't think God (if there is a God) is that cruel. Maybe, He justs seperates his children so they won't fight and comes to visit them....

Anonymous said...

TBM you believe in Christ, great, so does the devil.

I have no problem with your works. I am sure you are a great guy.

Who gives you the gift of the Holy Ghost?

ATAR_i said...

8:30 I would not consider accepting Christ into your heart or being baptized as 'works'. I would consider them 'acts of faith'.

TBM - Gods perfection is something that cannot be achieved by mortals. To him, all our good works are still nothing more than filthy rags. The rag was used to wipe up honey, the rag was used to wipe up excrement - they are both still filthy and unclean.

I think it's perspective. Two architects try to build a structure. Both structures are flawed at the core. One is WAY more beautiful, but both will fall down. Is one more useful, or better because it is prettier. When it is in a pile of rubble on the sidewalk - it really doesn't matter now does it?

The moment I realized all my pious self denial and righteous disdain for those lacking the strength and willpower to resist sin - was in itself, a sin - it was an epiphany.

I literally sinned, by attempting to live a sinless life. I had NOT love, which is the greatest commandment.

Oh, I had the appearance of love, you wouldn't have known the condition of my heart from watching me live. To all those around me, I was the model of purity and right living.

Anonymous said...

bbgae,God is perfect,and vary smart,he created the earth for us so we wouldn't TRASH HIS PLACE while we were growing up

uncaduff

bbgae said...

Uncaduff- LOL. Thanx. I like that thought. :)

muggsey said...

Well said Atar-i,

These folks need to read introductions to both Ephesians and Hebrews. Each of the two books was addressed to two independent and individual groups of people. 1.) Ephesians was addressed to new gentile professors of Christ whereas: 2.) Hebrews was addresed to the Church in Jerusalem, largly consisting of Jews. These nominal "Jewish Christians" were not demonstrating their "good works" which gave testamony as to the saving blood of Jesus which saves them from their sins. The Ephesians, not being acquainted with atonement, as were the Jews, were learning that Salvation came to man, be he gentile or Jew by the Grace of God, as demonstrated by the individual's expression of faith. Paul also noted that the Ephesians needed to be aware of the cost of their salvation God's greatest ultimate gift, the blood of Jesus Christ, that they nor no one else could ever be saved as the result of their works alone. Works were the evidence of the saved soul. The Christian is to continually do good works as continuing proof to the world of their personal belief in the living Christ, who dwells within their eternal soul.

Been away for while. It's good to be back. I know my return will have mixed reviews, dependent upon who is the respondent.

Cheerio

ATAR_i said...

hey muggsey - where have you been?

TBM said...

I was the model of purity and right living
Great! You were fulfilling the commandments, without question or qualification. The model of humility and child-like obedience that Christ commanded: "Suffer the little children to come unto me, for of such is the kingdom of Heaven".

What I don't understand is why you feel that God will give you no credit whatever for fulfilling his commandments. It makes no sense at all that God would give a commandment without expecting you to actually fulfil it -- what are the commandments for, if not to be fulfilled?

Yes, God is a god of love, just as he is a god of all the virtues. Justice, or "fairness" if you prefer, is also a virtue, as is mercy. It would be neither fair nor merciful to treat the most humble, sincere and obedient subject of God in the exact same way as Hitler. That makes a mockery of both fairness and mercy, and makes god an imperfect, flawed being.

On the other hand, a father who will not discipline his children when they break the rules is an irresponsible one. That he loves them is not an excuse for indulgence. Who would not disagree that a man who claims that he loves his children too much to punish them, is a dead-beat dad?

And that's hardly a divine quality! So arguing that if God loves us, he could not "want to be separated indefinitely from any of your children" is, again, to make a god of weaknesses, flaws and inconsistencies.

And I'm sure I don't need to explain that a flawed god is a Christian illogicality.

5.51Who gives you the gift of the Holy Ghost?
The technical answer would be Jesus christ, through the medium of the prieshood. But I don't understand your point. I'm sure you have one, but could you explain it another way?

P.S. nice to see you back again muggsey. It's been a long time.

TBM said...

Who would not disagree that a man who claims that he loves his children too much to punish them, is a dead-beat dad?

Sorry, that's meant to read, "Who would not agree that a man who claims that he loves his children too much to punish them, is a dead-beat dad?"

bbgae said...

TBM- We have shown a God who loves but we aslo belive is just. You have shown a just God who also loves. Both sides went to the extreme. But I think we all have to agree that if God is perfect, then He has the perfect balance between His love and His judgments.

I beg to differ about the Holy Ghost only comming through the Priesthood. I know that is what you believe as a Mormon, but to me the Holy Goost is just another name for the Holy Spitit. or the Spirit, or the Spirit of God. Also, in the new testiment, it is only referred to as the Spirit of God, not the Holy Ghost. That is purely a Mormon thing.

I also have huge issues with the whole priesthood thing, which I'm sure you allready know. So before I go off on this tangent, let me first say that I like you and ask you not to be offended by this. (Not that you would, because I don't know, but just in case.)

Priesthood is just the last reminants of our former male dominated society. That the man is only worthy of the priesthood is putting the woman as less than he is, and it is not right. (And, no, as a woman I never wanted the priesthood or coveted it's power, or any power for that matter.) Men and women were created equal before God. Women, do not have to recieve the Spirit from anyone except God. The same goes for anyone.

Anonymous said...

Dear TBM

5.51 Who gives you the gift of the Holy Ghost?
The technical answer would be Jesus christ, through the medium of the prieshood. But I don't understand your point. I'm sure you have one, but could you explain it another way?


No I asked the question and you stepped right up and made my point, TBM you answered as I expected "through the medium of the priesthood".


Welcome back Muggsey.

muggsey said...

I am really amazed that no one caught that I referred to Hebrews in my previous post and not to the book of James. Ephesians, addressed to the gentile church, spoke of Grace and Faith. James, written to the Jewish members of the original church which came about as the result of Peter's Pentacostal Sermon, was written by the half brother of Jesus' physical being. Although not an apostle, James and Jude, another of Jesus' half-brothers, were highly regarded and assumed places of authority in the early church. James, who in his epistle is specifically addressing Hebrew Christians spoke openly of their lip service as their only profession of Jesus as Savior. He instructed them to let their light shine (do something to convince us that you have had the experience you claim to have had). Convince us by doing some good works.

Paul in his letter to the Ephesians spent his time in counciling the new converts in the meaning of atonement for sin. How God, revealing His Grace to un-repenant man, provided forgivness for all sin past, present and future with their acceptance of HIS Grace through their own Faith in Jesus as Savior and Lord.

Paul did not discount the need for works, but made it very clear that it is God who saves and not man's futile efforts to impress HE WHO IS, WHO WAS, and WHO EVER WILL BE. Works are to the the fruit of that which has been completed, even Grace shown through one's Faith.

Been gone due to the absurdity of a deer thinking it could share the same bit of road as did my auto, at the same time and a bout with stomach flu. Think the car was easier to repair! The wreck didn't hurt anything but the car and the deer, the flu, now that's something else I'll not discuss!

ATAR_i said...

as usual - the google log in lost my long reply to tbm

basically, God looks on your heart, and no amount of good works, or sacrifice will substitute for a heart that seeks, yearns and believes in God.

TBM said...

Atar_i, what I always do is copy my comment to the clipboard before I post it. That way, if it gets lost, I can just paste it back again. It's a shame. I'd have liked to have seen your comment.

bbgae: in the new testiment, it is only referred to as the Spirit of God, not the Holy Ghost. That is purely a Mormon thing
I find that such a surprising statement from you, bbgae, that I think I must have misunderstood. The New Testament refers constantly to the Holy Ghost. At least, the King James Version does -- maybe other versions use a different name? There's nothing especially Mormon about the expression "holy ghost" And yes, the Holy Ghost is also known as the Holy Spirit, or The Spirit of the Lord.

But I basically agree with you. I think really we're just arguing about our different emphasis (emphasises? emphases?). Of course, the perfect god will find the perfect balance between love and justice. That's what the atonement of Jesus Christ was all about.

HOLY COW!!!!!! DID TWO PEOPLE JUST AGREE ON THIS BOARD????? What other incredible things will this day bring, I wonder? Men beating their swords into plowshares? Bill Clinton swearing faithfulness to his wife? :-0

You seem to be confusing the Holy Ghost with the Gift of the Holy Ghost, which is different. The Holy Ghost bears witness to the truth of the gospel, and anybody can feel the Holy Ghost. The Gift of the Holy Ghost, which can only be passed on through the priesthood, is a right to receive God's guidance.

3.08: No I asked the question and you stepped right up and made my point
Glad to be of service. Even though I still haven't the faintest idea what your point is.

bbgae said...

TBM- I really liked your last post!

And, darn it, you made me dig out my Bible, (it is the King James version) dust it off and acually open it so I could explain what I meant! :) lol

Ok to begin with: in the sentance in question I should not have used the word purely. Because it is not 'purely' a Mormon thing. It is also a characteristic of the off shoot churches from Mormonism, but Mormons were the first as far as I know, and that was what I meant by that.

I am aware as you suggested that the gift of the Holy Ghost and the Holy Ghost when referred to as the Holy Spirit are two seperate things. You are right that it is sometimes called the Holy Ghost in the New Testiment. I conceed on that one.

I was also going to argue that the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost is sometimes referred to as the Holy Spirit when Christ was babtized. But, I could not prove that the laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost as a seperat entity is only a 'Mormon' thing, because the further I read, I discovered the early apostles doing just that to the newly babtized members after Christ's death.

I think I was confused when I started that argument, because the only time the Mormons (and Mormon off shoots) seperate the Holy Ghost into diferent parts that other religions do not (as far as I know) is probabally in the Godhead alone.

Several people posted about the gift of the Holy Ghost being only recieved through the priesthood. And, we believe the Holy Ghost was available to the people after Christ was babtized.
What about the religions that do not have an inner priesthood? I think they also recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost when they are babtized? Do pasters in regular christian churches also claim to have the holy priesthood and thus the right to give the gift of the Holy Ghost after babtism? Or, is it to them the same as the Holy Spirit and available to after babtism?

Anonymous said...

bbgae;

Do you support any organized religions? (I read that you were formerly of the FLDS flock on one of your posts)and I wondered how you feel about religion, now. It appears that you are faily well versed in your scriptures, (better than I am) although you did state that you had to "dust off your bible...;)

I am also from CC, and I am totally burned out, as far as organized religions go, although I am much more spiritual than I was before. (Strange, huh!) So I am interested to know how others from our background feel in regards to this topic. I have spoken to several that have joined the Mormon church, because they needed the structure in their lives, but a lot of others just sort of go off the deep end, trying everything they can think of, just because they can. You, on the other hand, seem more steady than that, so hence the question. Don't answer if the question is too personal, as I respect your privacy! Thanks!

St. Georgette

bbgae said...

St. Georgette- I really appreciate you respecting my privacy, but I will answer you because I don't think that's too personal of a question to ask. There are worse questions....

When I first considered 'leaving' it was while I was still married to my first husband and I wanted to join the LDS church because I felt like if any religion was similar to mine (and better, maybe) it would be them. I even ran away to my aunt's house for a few days and went to church (LDS) with her. But, as it turned out, all I really wanted was for someone to step in and say I wasn't as bad as I was accused of being, and that's exactly what happened, so I went back.

I had acually 'left' a few years before we were asked to leave priesthodd property. We weren't upset about it.

With me, it was more of a 'nothing except FLDS is right', so at first I refused to go to church at all- any church- because it felt like a betrayl. My husband is probabally the biggest factor in my present religious view. Not simply that I calmly agreed with him (if anybody knows me, they will know I do not agree to ANYTHING unless I -at the risk of sounding Engilsh :)- bloody well want to) but because everything he said made perfect sense to me. And, the longer I stayed away from church, the less desire I had to go to any church. Then, I started to realize alot more some of the things I had been taught as FLDS that WAS NOT RIGHT, and I had to wonder.

About a year ago I was very tempted to join an evangelical church that my friend goes to, because I really like the idea of believeing on Christ and being saved vs. do what you're told and you might be saved.... maybe....

But, I found out that contrary to what they say about not being an organized religion, they have pastors and they really ARE an organized religion. There are still rules of if you do this or do that, you will not recieve as good a reward in heaven as you could have, or not be a good christian. For instance, her paster told her to not watch Harry Potter movies because they were witchcraft and that the DiVinci Code was the anti-Christ, stuff like that. I know, this was a bit harsh on my part, but it smacked too closly of FLDS tyrany.

And, to top it all off, I have always been fascinated with science. I love facts. I love science in general. And, I like to face the possibility that I might be wrong about the existance of a God at all, than to die and find out that all religion is, is just a pretty story.

So, as it stands, I believe that there are faithful, good, people in every religion there is (as well as despicable characters). I believe they each have a strong testimony of what they think is right, and it is not for me or anyone to try to persuade them differently. So, if someone believes something is right (and it does not hurt anyone), let them believe. Let them do. Because they believe it is right, that makes it right for them to believe.

I would rather see the facts from BOTH sides of the story before I believe anything. I severly dislike being told I should believe or do something because "I said so" or "You don't love me if you don't" (FLDS) kind of coersion.

There are facts for and against the Book of Mormon, and the Bible. So, for myself, I say man wrote them and no one can prove anything with them on a factual point because man has flaws. No one can say whether the words in the Bible were the way it REALLY happened, because no one is alive from back then that could say if it was or not. Sure, science can prove many things, but it seems to me there is as much fact discovered against what they try to prove as for.

It really is easier to believe something if there is fact supporting it, but in reality, it is ludicrus to try and prove religion with science. Because, religion and science are two opposite sides of the same coin. Reilgion's tool is faith, and science's tool is fact, to try to proove one with the other's tools does not work very well.

So, then you come to circular logic that is completely dependant upon it's self. "The Bible is correct because God had it written, and the Bible speaks of God, so it proves He exists."

My own personal belief is- I do not know God. I do not know who or what (He?) is. And I am willing to admit it. I cannot say we humans are or are not just creatures brought to life to live and die and for no other purpose. I cannot say if there is a heaven or a hell, because I do not know, I do not believe any form of sacred writ can prove or disprove it, and no one has come back from the dead to tell me.

However, if there is a God, I like to think of Him as the way I have described in my preivous posts. I like to think there might be a way back to Him. Who is to say that all the good faithful people from EVERY religion won't go to heaven if there is a heaven? I think they will. The main thing I don't like about organized religion is the fact that even thought they all say contrary, they only serve to seperate people. Organized religion is for the people who need it. I am not one of them. I will face my problems, and I will survive. I will be ok. I bear no person (not even the trolls) a grudge. Because of this, I am going to be so cocky as to say I believe if there is a God, and a way back to (Him) that I might be saved.

I am not saying that anything I have written here is right or wrong. I was aksed a question, and I answered it. That is all.

Anonymous said...

bbgae: now that was a good post. Statements with "I think", "my belief", or "in my opinion" are much easier to digest than statements like "the bible says you must do this" or "the DOC says you must do that". The latter reminds me too much of "URoy says" or "warren says"...almost makes you want to continue with "Steven King says", or "Michael Moore says".

S.Gette: You didn't ask, but here's another data point from an ex. I'm agnostic leaning toward atheism (without going off the deep end and trying everything because I have the freedom to make the choice). Muggsey's posts accelerate the lean.

LTG

TBM said...

a lot of others just sort of go off the deep end, trying everything they can think of, just because they can
I've seen that happen so many times. It seems to be almost a standard reaction by anyone who loses his testimony. I'm not sure why they do it. It seems almost that they have a need to prove to the world that they're not Mormon any more, so start doing all these non-Mormon things. It's sad.

bbgae: So far as I'm aware, the gift of the Holy Ghost is a purely Mormon thing. I don't think any other churches have such an ordinance, and that if they talk of "the Guift of the Holy Ghost", that's yet another way of saying "the Holy Spirit".

And I think you're right, no other church (none that I know of, at least) has a doctrine of three gods acting as one.

Muggsey: I'll bet the deer has no sympathy for you whatever :-)

You're absolutely right in your analysis of the epistles. I should probably make it clear that Mormon doctrine does state that we are saved by grace. But grace does not give an unconditional amnesty to all sinners regardless.

In Mormonism, you are expected to keep the commandments and live as righteously as you can, according to your comprehension of the gospel. If you do so, the atonement will make up for your insufficiencies to save you.

The BoM makes it clear that mortal existence on earth is a probationary period. Since in Mormonism, our existence is an eternal progression to eventual godhood (and we existed before this life, and we will continue to exist after it), the principle challenge of life on earth is living righteously without any concrete knowledge of God's existence.

If we do, then the atonement cleanses us off the impurities that we inevitably will have acquired during mortal life, and we can continue to progress. That is what a Mormon means when he talks about being "saved".

But, "if ye have sought to do wickedly in the days of your probation, then ye are found unclean before the judgment-seat of God; and no unclean thing can dwell with God." That's not to say your worthless soul is thrown into a firey place of torment, but your progression toward godhood comes to an end.

bbgae said...

TBM & St. Georgette- When someone looses their testimony and then starts trying everything else (religion or 'forbidden' things i.e. drugs etc.) It is usually for one of these reasons:

1-They are just trying to find balance and meaning in their lives and haven't found the one that 'works' for them yet. And, the first little thing they don't agree with, it's on to the next. Whether they ever do find something they can be satisfied with or not is anyone's guess.

2- They feel guilty (maybe there is good reason for this and maybe not) and are in self destruct mode. Sometime they are so ashamed of themselves they turn to drugs or alcohol or anything to make them forget how very much they loth themselves.

feralfem said...

LTG,

I second your post above. Your sentiments and experience seem to match mine very closely. I think we are birds of a feather.

I too have been a LTG. I'm guessing (from your previous posts) we both left right around the same time - the introduction of The One-Man Rule which, btw, was definitely not my only reason.

For me, organized religion is suffocating and cultish in all it's manifestations. My spirituality and morals thrive on freedom of mind and the natural world, not man-made philosophies and injunctions.

I believe I AM a creator -- as is every other human that ever graced this earth. We can choose to create our own happiness. Or we can turn it over to someone else or some organization.

Happiness comes from within. If, for some, an organized religion is preferred to bring it about, I am all for it. Just don't try to force me down that path.

Namaste

Anonymous said...

LTG & bbgae; thanks for responding! I find that I also look at the Bible and the BOM with different eyes. For myself, I totally believe that the Bible is stories that are handed down through the ages, and then someone decided to write them down, so they are great stories, but for me to be taken with a grain of salt, not too literally.

Before I bring down the wrath of all Chritianity, let me say this. ANYWHERE that I find a stories of human interaction, in which I find things that I can apply to my life to become a better person, that is what I am looking for, whether it be in a religious book, or otherwise, the Bible is no exception. I find the same thing with the Book of Mormon. There are some things in there, that scientifically speaking, that are impossible to prove. (Genetics and such, not panning out quite like it is portrayed, and where are the bones left over from the massive battle on the Hill Cumorah?)But I don't doubt the sincerity of it's followers! It has just as much chance of being true as the Bible.

I have studied with great fascination the teachings of many other accepted teachers, as well. In opening myself up to learn other modalities, I have become much happier inside myself! One such tool is the teachings of Abraham-Hicks. (You can learn about them on the internet.) But even then, I only choose to keep what serves me, and let the rest go.

I have an uncle in SLC who is determined to get me baptized into the LDS church. But I live surrounded by Mormons, and (no offence, TBM) I find the same predjudice exists here, as at CC. If you are not Mormon, then they look down on you, something fierce! The only one that has been very genuine to me is the Bishop, who is a few doors away. He is a really neat guy, and not at all snooty and self-rightious like the rest of the 'hood. (One of them actually had the gall to tell my children that we would be in the same class in heaven as the "Negro Race" which meant I wont get the highest degree of glory, because I was born in C.C.)(????) Well, at least we will be all partying to some great Pingy-Pangy music!! LOL!!

I KNOW not ALL Mormons are this way, but I have had a hard time finding the one's who aren't.

The worst part of organized religion for me, is that most of them seem to have the attitude that if you are not of their particular religion, then you are lesser than, and will end up in hell. If that is the case, then I will take it! That's where all the fun will be! (I am being sarcastic...)

FeralFem, you are my kind of gal! What you said totally resonated with me. The part about you being a creator is what I learned from the Abraham-Hicks teachings, and also from "The Secret", a DVD I highly recommend, no matter what your religion is. (Does LTG mean Long Time Gone? I wondered because you said you were that also. Just trying to understand.)

So anyway, for me, I want to allow all people the room to be where they are at, and just be happy in my adventure! I find that the possibilty of re-incarnation really resonates with me. How else could you explain so many things that wouldn't make sense otherwise? So, I look forward to many more adventures like this one! Thanks for sharing with me, and feel free to share more, if you like! You may reach me @ st.georgette@yahoo.com


St. Georgette

feralfem said...

My goodness... we might start a mutual admiration society right here on this ol' blog. LOL

Support and good will beat conflict and animosity any ol' day!

Yes... LTG does = Long Time Gone.

Namaste

furnace said...

I take exception to "The Secret". It reminds me of many of the teachings in the FLDS, especially, "It was a lack of faith why ... didn't happen". However, a positive minded person will always fare better than a bitter person.

FeralFem pointed out different types of people who leave, and I rarely post here, because quite frankly, I am in the category feralfem lists as "getting on with life".

As to people leaving and going off the deep end, BBGAE mentioned a reason. Human beings are creatures of habit, and when our neural pathways are disrupted because we realize the religion of our birth is wrong, it is hard to recalibrate our neural network, but even some of the "STEAMING HOT" apostates eventually recalibrate and get on with their lives.

feralfem said...

"...it is hard to recalibrate our neural network, but even some of the "STEAMING HOT" apostates eventually recalibrate and get on with their lives."

Right on, Furnace!

bbgae said...

Sooo... Feralfem and furnace,
Since you have both referred to yourselves as steaming hot apostates, am I to understand you are both exceptionally pleasing to look at?

feralfem said...

Short answer?
But of COURSE!! Wild women are always "pleasing to look at."
----------

Clarification?
The original reference (in the other thread) was STEAMING MAD.

I know I didn't characterize MYSELF in that category and I'm not so sure Furnace did either.

But... I can understand "Furnace" would substitute "HOT" for "MAD"... after all he's FURNACE, right?
LOL

Yup! I'm quite sure - since you ask the question - I'm pretty "hot." I know at least one person who says that about me... and that I'm good-lookin' too!

furnace said...

"Furnace" has nothing to do with being angry, but wonderments about what the highly secret furnace I was supposed to work on was for. I only started working on it (Fall '04) when suddenly it was abandoned and there was a sudden urgent need for scrambled radio communication.

I meant "Steaming MAD", not "steaming hot" in reference to an earlier poster. I didn't proof-read too well.

bbgae said...

furnace-
I allready knew where your name came from.
I am not picky about misspellings, or precise wording.
The last thing in the world I would want to is is offend you. I like you!
It was meant as a joke. :)

Anonymous said...

I'll say your not picky about misspelling.

fttc said...

The spelling is not a big deal. Typos are inevitable. This was the first blog that I ever responded to. There was a very short period where I laughed at all the mistakes others made. One day I decided to poke some fun at it. After carefully making all my points and then proofreading it thoroughly I posted my ingenious response to the stupidity of other posters. Guess what. After I hit the button I saw no less than three misspellings and grammatical mistakes in MY perfect post. It never fails that the one poking fun at others has the same failings in one way or another. Look at the intent of the posters and don't get hung up on the words they use. I learned it the hard way. :)

ATAR_i said...

I hate reading my posts and finding errors - it drives me batty - but I don't have the time to be nit picky about it, and luckily - no one makes it a big deal on this board.

Organized religion is difficult for me, but I agree with it in theory - I just think it's a treasure when/if you find a group that can offer support, without offering the spiritual heirarchy that I have a knee jerk reaction to.

If you're a minister, please don't dress like you walked out of nieman marcus, with slick hair and a perfect house driving a beemer. If you're his wife, please don't talk as if your life is perfect - please be real.

Please understand if you put yourself in a place of spiritual leadership, making us feel as if you are perfect, when we know you are human, doesn't promote spirituality, it promotes spiritual competition (which is the antithesis of what true spirituality is).

It's not about whose life LOOKS the best from the outside, it's about supporting each other on a journey towards finding and understanding God.

Anonymous said...

Anon 8:18, that should be "you're" instead of "your".

Anonymous said...

St.Gette: I’ve been Long Time Gone. It’s hard to believe its been about 25 years. I’ll bet it makes Uncaduff feel old, I was a kid when he left. Sorry Unca.

One reason that kids go off the deep end is that they have all of their self esteem wrapped up in how they are perceived by those in the religion. When the religion is taken away or they abandon it, their self esteem goes along as well. It takes a few years to re-establish their self worth base and get all the synapses firing in the right order again.

Another reason might be is kids in CC are raised with addictive personality traits. They are taught from a very young age to snort the scriptures in mass quantities. The only place to get more is from the gangly dealer spouting prophecies down on the corner. When they run out of money or are cut off, they have to get their fix some where else.

Some turn to drink, some to smoke, some join other churches. All in an effort to recapture the high they felt from the high quality shit being dished out by the dealer on the corner sermon after sermon.

Another place they turn is the spigot of self pity. If they suck from that hose long enough its easy to view themselves as a victim instead of as the survivor they really are. This is probably the hardest spiral to get out of.

Feralfem: Hmmm…..a female that left about the same time I did….now you’ve got me wondering…

Furnace: I’m glad you stop by every now and again to update, challenge, or inform.

LTG

TBM said...

If you're a minister, please don't dress like you walked out of nieman marcus, with slick hair and a perfect house driving a beemer. If you're his wife, please don't talk as if your life is perfect - please be real
I remember years ago when somebody told a dirty joke in the presence of an Episcopalian priest. It was genuinely funny, and the priest, far from being shocked, laughed hysterically.

I liked him from that moment on. He was genuine.

Anonymous said...

I don't like to find errors in my posts, either. But I won't complain about others' post errors. The reason I have so many is because I never took typing and I am usually too impatient to spell check. I really can spell.... :)

Atar- Wow! I had foolishly assumed you were the 'go faithfully to church every Sunday' kind of person. I admire your strong faith and beliefs and ability to quote the Bible at will.
I agree that ministers and their wives and families should not try to appear super human because of their position. Maybe they feel 'pressured' into putting up that immage for their followers (so as not to loose any)?

I knew a religious leader whom I really admired. He would go out into the yard in the early morning where his guests and visitors had gathered with a pot of steaming hot coffee and sing "Come, Come Ye Saints..." leading them all into the kitchen for breakfast where the work plans for the day would be discussed. I also really admired his sermons more than any others I have heard because they were "let's love the Lord and love each other!" instead of "If you do not love one another, there is no place in heaven for you."

LTG- Thankyou. There ARE more than two reasons why kids go off the deep end after leaving.

bbgae
(I forgot to sign in first and if I leave now my post will disappear....)

ATAR_i said...

Nope BB, it's been really difficult for me.

I believe, and believe strongly in God, but I have really strong filters when it comes to church.

I don't believe in spiritual classes, and anything that has a wiff of it, is a place I cannot go.

Anyhow - it's difficult

bbgae said...

Atar- You are my hero.... :)

TBM- I've been meaning to ask you, would you explain the way the LDS see the time when the now FLDS 'broke away'? I know their side of the story, and I thought it would be interesting to hear the other side if you know and if you would care to explain.

I was taught that John Taylor had to go into hiding from the authorities and persecutions. He had to be carefull where he went because some of the 'faithfull' LDS would turn him in. The manifesto had been presented but not yet signed and he was still president of the church and the prophet when he called the "eight hour meeting" saying Joseph Smith had visited him in the night, and he was said to say, "Sign that document? Never! I would sooner have my arm torn from my body than sign..." (Or something like that.) He then proceeded to put John Wooley and Lorin Wolley and a few others under oath that they would see to it that not one year went by without children being born into the new and everlasting covenant. (This is where some families got the idea that each wife MUST have a baby every year to fulfil that oath. I think it was only meant that one baby in the community or group was to be born from a plural union evey year.)

Anyway, that is where they claim to get their authority.

TBM said...

bbgae: would you explain the way the LDS see the time when the now FLDS 'broke away'?
I don't think I've ever heard it even mentioned. The FLDS really are not an issue for the LDS. I guess these days, it probably gets discussed more than it used to because of all the headlines, but when I was a kid growing up and studying in Mormonville, I don't think anybody ever discussed the FLDS.

During my mission, I had a companion who was from somewhere in southern Utah. I asked him about the polygamists once, and he told me for a few minutes how wierd they were. After that, we moved onto a different topic, and never brought it up again.

It's not because it's some big taboo subject and makes the LDS nervous or embarassed. It's just that polygamy is such a total non-issue in the LDS church. I'm a member of a big LDS blog called Nauvoo.com. In all the hundreds of subjects we've discussed there in the last three years, I think the only time polygamy was even mentioned was at the time of Jeffs' arrest. We had a short thread about that, but interest quickly faded.

When I hear FLDS stories about their origins, I just find them all rather hard to believe. They seem always to be characterized by a sense of the melodramatic that stretches belief, like a badly-scripted movie: "I would sooner have my arm torn from my body than sign..." for example.

There was a thread about a year ago where fundy (I think) quoted some woman saying that after signing the manifesto, Wilford Woodruff came home white and trembling, saying "Oh God, what have I done", and then took to his sick-bed for a week. Again, melodramatic.

And then fttc wrote that Woodruff's own journal shows that he spent the week after signing the manifesto holding management meetings as usual and conducting his regular schedule!

Anonymous said...

bbgae: You are right, there are more reasons, I only mentioned a few. Another reason is 'just because they can'. I went off the deep end a little because I love a party. Always have, always will. I just wish I could stay up past 9.

LTG

bbgae said...

Thankyou, TBM. :)

ATAR_i said...

bb - I'm totally swamped at work and home, thanks for keeping the board so alive and fresh - I'm so glad you're here!

Your my hero : )

bbgae said...

Thanx, Atar! :)

Anonymous said...

it's hard for me to imagine how brainwashed you you. god doesn't even exist and everything you do or say revolves around complete fiction. i do feel sorry for you since you were born into it.