Monday, September 18, 2006

Colorado law now bans common law marriage under 18

DENVER- As developments continue in the preliminary hearing for polygamist sect leader Warren Jeffs, a new Colorado law goes into effect saying common-law marriage is not valid unless both parties are at least 18. The new law went into effect September 1. State Representative Gwyn Green, D-Golden/Lakewood, and Senator Betty Boyd, D-Lakewood, sponsored the legislation during the special session on illegal immigration.

“This law was the right thing to do for the state and for our children,” Rep. Green said.

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97 comments:

ATAR_i said...

Not sure voters will take a bite of what Sen. Reid is cooking

Sen. Harry Reid, D-Nev., is a mover and shaker, but I can't figure out what he's trying to cook up. What does he actually hope to accomplish by launching a federal probe into the polygamist communities of Hildale, Utah, Colorado City, Ariz., and other polygamous sects in the Western United States? Is he grandstanding because he's up for election?

onthestreet said...

IS IT REALLY Thread (Archive)
(Maybe it'll liven up this thread):

Les was discussing the Salamandor, see? SAL (vation) A MAN - DOOR: Salvation for man, through the door of Christ. But Muggsey’s reply: HO-HUM, same-'ol same-'ol
B O R I N G ZZZZZZZZZZZ///////#987654321.99999999999999 TO INFINITY.
9/16/2006 3:16 PM (IS IT REALLY Thread-Archive)

"And the disciples slept: Couldn't ye pray with me but one hour"?

Anonymous said...

this is common law today; what ever gets money from your pocket to fat beuracrats, and war and contention. think if it this way; how many of you voted for war? there was only two canidets debating on the best war strategy. so your common law is for war? I hope you all can chew what you did bite off. for it is true, that all men can choose what it is that they want, but in choosing there is also a consiquince. there is a penilty or a blessing according to your choice of evil or good. you choose war. read carefuly what happens in war.

muggsey said...

You can bet Dirty Harry has an agenda. He is after all the Minority Leader in the Senate. Being main-line LDS he thinks that somehow he can blame the polygamist debacle on the Republicans. All in the world a federal probe will do for this situation is to bring the dispute to the floor of one of the Senate conference rooms for the purpose of getting congressmen to draw sides, his side or anyone else.

His tactics are and have been divide and conquer. My only hope is that Nevada gets as tired of him as South Dakota did of Daschele.

A probe will serve little, if any, purpose and certainly will not offer any conclusion worthy of note on the subject. Maybe Harry thinks that it might provide some low work, high pay, for some of his contributors.

Anonymous said...

You go Muggsy!!!

onthestreet said...

Certainly high praise from the LDS heirarchy, and their continued support come election time among the LDS millions.

Anonymous said...

What did this law have to do with illegal immigration again?

muggsey said...

What law are you asking about? I have seen on proposed law on this blog only request for a hearing by Harry Reid. A hearing is not a law. It IS a lot of HOT AIR.

ATAR_i said...

I don't think the Colorado law has anything to do with illegal immigration - did someone say it did?

Enjoy_Every_Sandwich said...

I just watched a dr. phil episode about that cult and warren jeffs got arrested.

onthestreet said...

Welcome to earth, Mars man.

Lorraine said...

Anyone who don't count Mr. Bush as a "leader" is a cult, according to these guys. All of us are mostly anti-government therefore we are "cults" and must be undone or eliminated. Their NWO must not have any dissidents. Lorraine

muggsey said...

enjoy

Please explain your post.

lorraine

You too.

Please

ATAR_i said...

Sandwich - welcome. It's a little confusing at first. Some of us have been on this blog for a long time, and there's a bit of history. A few personalities are involved (again with lots of history) - so ask questions.

Darlin still lives in CC, but she is considered an apostate. Fttc, something along those lines as well.

OTS and CTR are faithful, but probably considered apostates by warren.

There are a few anonymous posters who it's easy to spot if you've been on the blog long.

There are a few 'faithful' FLDS who follow warren and post on the blog occassionally. Sometimes, Wisan, Law Enforcement and Reporters post. It's a whole slew of personalities.

Just ask questions - people are more than happy to answer, and ignore OTS if he insults you and sais disgusting things - it's his motus operandi.

I saw parts of Dr. Phil as well. If you are interested do two things.

1. Purchase 'Under The Banner of Heaven' by Jon Krakauer and read it

2. Purchase 'Banking on Heaven' at bankingonheaven.com - or at least watch the trailer.

There are all sorts of free sites, with a lot of information. The polygamy diaries will allow you to watch all sorts of journalistic video.

Listen to warren Jeffs sermon on 'the negro race' - there are clips available at the Eldorado Success - you just won't believe it until you hear it. I think you can probably purchase a tape from Jay Beswick (Men in Black - MIB).

You can email me if you have any questions.

ATAR_i said...

I didn't mean to infer the Darlin and FTTC weren't faithful, they are very faithful to their religion, but consider the leadership of warren jeffs something that bifurcates from the true teaching and living of the FLDS (help me out if I misrepresented you).

fttc said...

Atar

You hit it on the head. Thanks for the heads up for Sandwich.

Men In Black said...

Yep! I can send the text of the audio from Warren Jeffs NEGRO RACE cassette. That was coutesy of another who also posts here on occasion. I think I have 2 or 3 of my cassettes on ebay. I sold 2 to Stanley Shepp last week! Got to GOOGLE that name to understand his interest in Warren's audio's. Scott Barlow bought one probably on Warren's orders last March, maybe he wondered if I really had them?

400 are going on display at a meeting in Arizona in a few weeks, but I can still sell a few if listening to a prophet is important to you. They make a good sleep aide, but watch out, some say they are hypnotic!

I think a professor of genetics bought a couple a month ago. Its interesting watch who the purchasers are and more interesting the addresses that I mail these too!

MIB

Men In Black said...

U.S. Senator Harry Reid, I seem to remember calling the Senators offices in Las Vegas and Washington DC. Also interesting was the backup support of Congressman Matheson out of St. George Utah. Both democrats and LDS, to them I applaud the guts to take the lead.

Other than ousting a few to many apostates, Warren invited scrutny when he continued to arranged marriages of underage girls, in violation of SB-146 Utah Senator Ron Allen legislation. Had he stuck to cohabitation with girls over 18, the states wouldn't have the case they have.

Its interesting listening to Warren's ambulance chasing attorneys defending the computer files as though they were sacred teachings, theology or doctrine. If they were any of these, they would be the same as what I sell on ebay. If an activist can own 550 or more of these cassettes and 18 of the theology books published mostly by Twin City Publishing, how can these be privilage documents? Unless of course they are not what Warren's attorney's say they are! Warren sold his sacred writings and his fathers, the books were not free and the cassettes were sold to the faithful, no secrets or religious protection required of these!

No, more likely the documents are business and not religious, but if they were and they were sold on ebay, the courts could hardly consider granting protection for something any one with a credit card can buy and did! If Jeffrey Shields or Bruce Wisan needs proof that the religious text is common, I have a US Postal receipt signed by Scott Barlow showing even the FLDS have been able to buy these, if not from Warren, then by shopping on ebay!

MIB

Men In Black said...

Well lets see Nevada? The old Srewart Ranch, 160,000 acres owned by...... The Kingstons!

The Caliente Hot Springs where Warren performed marriages, owned by Merrill Jessop until 2004. Well not to far from there and why did the local sheriff turn a blind eye?

Just follow the Eastern edge of Nevada North from Mesquite and you will find lots of independents that live off of the grid. Vance Springs on Utah's West boundary. The Johnson Ranch. On the Utah side the Harker Ranch, yeah you guys remember Mary Harker, Paul Knudson's sister! Then not so far from the Harkers, the remnants of the Gerald Peterson group, shall I go on? Idaho and Montana have there fair share and of course you get your nut cases like Thomas Sliwinski, if you haven't read the "Book of Thomas" you haven't lived! Of course Sliwinski fled to Mexico and hooked up with William Black, you folks in CC remember William. William's counsin in Apple Valley Utah, married Amber Sliwinski, its a small world when you start tracking! Good thing neither state wants to hire me.

Abide by the law and observe the age of consent or legal maturity and states have little to charge polygamist with, but so many violate the law and justify it under religion.

I'll bet Harry Reid would love to know what I know! What do you think?

ATAR_i said...

MIB - I think I'm going to need a copy of the 'Book of Thomas', do you have any other interesting tapes that you recommend?

Just email me and let me know what you have - and what you want for it.

ATAR_i said...

The House of Thomas

You can download a preview of the book on that page. It's pretty homespun - don't expect too much.

Fredonia Friend said...

Hi MIB,

Glad to see you are posting here. Can you tell us more about the meeting you mentioned that will be held in a few weeks? If you'd rather reply off-line, you can email me, fredoniafriend@yahoo.com

Thanks!

ATAR_i said...

This is so disturbing.

The house of Thomas from his wives viewpoint

His wives were

1. His wife
2. His 13 year old stepdaughter/wife
3. His 12 year old stepdaughter/wife
4. An even younger stepdaughter/wife

Men In Black said...

Its a party for Bill Montgomery the Arizona candidate for Attorney General on the Republican Ticket. There are a few meetings that day unrelated to the candidate, still related to alledged abuses.

MIB

muggsey said...

ots

since you are not MY SAVIOR, what purpose would it serve for me to pray with you for one hour?

Our prayers wouldn't even be directed to the same supreme being. Yours is "man", mine GOD.

Anonymous said...

For anyone who wants to know without being brainwashed by Atari, MIB and apostates.

An apostate is one who fights against the prophet. One being cast out is not an apostate. Only those who fight against the priesthood they once held are apostates.

Here is the text of the quote of BRIGHAM YOUNG that Warren Jeffs read at a history class concerning the Negro race:

"You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild, and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would have put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which is the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race - that they should be the "servant of servants;" and they will be, until that curse is removed. How long is that race to endure the dreadful curse that is upon them? That curse will remain upon them, and they never can hold the Priesthood or share in it until all the other descendants of Adam have received the promises and enjoyed the blessings of the Priesthood and the keys thereof. Until the last ones of the residue of Adam's children are brought up to that favourable position, the children of Cain cannot receive the first ordinances of the Priesthood. They were the first that were cursed, and they will be the last from whom the curse will be removed. When the residue of the family of Adam come up and receive their blessings, then the curse will be removed from the seed of Cain, and they will receive blessings in like proportion." (BY 10/9/1859)

Warren never taught that they could not go to the highest heaven, or that this life is not very important to their getting there, just as it is with us. He taught that they were black because of a curse, and have their mission here, just as we do. God made different races for His reasons. Obviously.

We lived a life before we came here, and we will live life after we leave, and because of Jesus Christ we will all have our bodies again. But what we do here is Paramount to how happy we will be in the ressurection.


CTR

Anonymous said...

A ban on common law marriage until 18 is no different than prohibition and a ban on guns.

When a law is created, it is meant for a select few, and not necessarily for the majority. It is perceived that the majority are not engaged in the “crime” in the first place.

This law is a shoot from the hip reaction to a single marriage situation in the state of Colorado, and is aimed at stopping sexual contact of adults with minors. In reality all it does is stop the sanctity of marriage. Even though from hip view sexual conduct is what they aim at, not marriage.

I would bet that Colorado is not outside of the statistic of the 36% of all teenage girls becoming pregnant, nor is it outside the statistic of 60% of those being impregnated by adult men. That is what they are aiming at, I hope. But it is obvious it is not going to end that, but can only, and will make things worse. In reality they are throwing out the baby with the bathwater.

You see that the common law marriage is actually a protection for the the wife, and her child. Marriage is an act of responsibility; sexual contact without it is not. This law will not stop sexual contact, it only stops marriage.

A law they aught to pass is one making any sexual contact at any age instantly becoming marriage if there is any possibility that a child can result, and by law the lady is given ownership of half of all of the man’s total wealth and half of his personal income for five years.

That won't happen, because it would affect the majority.


CTR

fttc said...

CTR

I like your idea about the marriage law. It would enforce responsibility on the men for their actions. On the other hand I know of some FLDS women who would be getting half the personal earnings from at least three men!

muggsey said...

ho hum,

CTR why don't you try for a NEW mantra. Why don't you make an effort to clean your own house and yard before taking on the responsability of being the moral guard for people who couldn't care less what you think.

I agree with your thesis in principle but, to point a finger at someone else in order to cover your own perfidity is useless verbage.

Anonymous said...

fttc- You must know more about FLDS bedrooms than I do.

mugs-
Interesting that you agree in principle and then tell me to clean up my house.

I am defending a clean house on principle. Marriage is not perfidy especially FLDS marriage.

The law that I propose would do more to stop teen pregnancy than the one ending they passed about common law marriage. Or is it religious marriage you were after in the first place?

CTR

ATAR_i said...

CTR - that was kind of an unwarranted attack on me. I gave information to a new person. And I asked all of you to correct it, if I had my definitions about apostate wrong.

I ASKED for input - the 'brainwashing comment' was uncalled for.

Furthermore - his sermon on the negro race - is....what it is. I only asked the new person to listen to it for themselves, I did not give any further information about it.

ATAR_i said...

/audio clips of warren jeffs

muggsey said...

CTR

AS I read your previous post I am led to believe that you advocate that any sexual contact, especially between an adult male and a minor female should immediately be recorded as common law marriage. This does not address the fact that the man may already have three or for wives, and only one legally wed to him.
Where are the property rights of wives 2-3-4-5- etc? How can each receive 1/2 of the estate? Your logic won't fly.

I am not advocating sexual activity between un-wed individuals, but out of wedlock pregnacy between two teenagers who got caught in the passion of the moment is much more natural and MUCH less sinister than for a child to be forced to wed a man, with multiple wives, and an act too often, if examined further would prove to be incest.

fttc said...

CTR

It has nothing to do with 'inside' knowledge. If you know anything about the biology of man it is simply a matter of arithmetic.

Anonymous said...

atari-
My comment was not unwarranted. You pretend to be neutral when you are commenting to me, but to someone new you refer them to books and videos that are PROPAGANDA, to get informed. By doing this you recommend hatred of the FLDS. You assume that anyone who believes that Warren Jeffs is innocent is uninformed, brainwashed, or lying. You assume anyone who says Warren Jeffs is a bad guy is telling the truth. That is brainwashing if you ask me.


mugs-
My logic is simple and will fly. You assume that Polygny is immoral. It is not any more than Monogamy is. Sexual contact is not immoral if it is consentual and following a consenting religious marriage. Any wife can be given 1/2 of the estate if she leaves. While they stay married, it is jointly held. Ruth would have been given half of Rodneys money for five years (or more for the children), and Candi would have been given half of Randys money for five years. They could do whatever they wanted with it, even give it back. I would bet you pennies to $100 bills that both of them would rather have that then to have anyone sent to jail.


I agree on the being forced to marry being sinister. I refuse to let people assume that Warren Jeffs forced anyone to marry. IT IS AGAINST OUR RELIGION TO FORCE. Those who believe otherwise are either brainwashed, like you, or liars, like Flora. IF Warren Jeffs is convicted, it will be because of public outcry, and not because of truth. The truth would literally set him free.

The law I propose would stop more promiscuity than anything outlawing plural marriage.

fttc-
Marriage does not mean sex. But sex obviously should mean marriage. Biology is animal instinct, godliness is not. I am not denying or confirming what I have no info on.


CTR

fttc said...

Are YOU claiming the children that are results of these re-re-reassigned marriages are the result of immaculate conception? I thought that was Street's line.

Anonymous said...

fttc-
No I'm not. But I dont know of any FLDS women who have three children by three different living men. Nor am I saying that is not possible.

CTR

ATAR_i said...

CTR -

I also referred them to Jeffs own tapes. I was unaware that the FLDS made any other data available - books, scriptures, revelations of any kind.

I've asked multiple times where I can find the revelations that become 'scripture'. Basically your updated version of the D&C (how I view it).

No one has them, no one even knows them, and apparently they change - which is one reason they probably don't get written down (that would be my guess). If you have another explanation - I'm all ears.

I refer them to the ONLY sources out there.

Plus, I think the sources are credible.

If I really wanted to be prejudice, I'd refer them to read the 'house of Thomas' and the 'prophet Onias', or perhaps Ervil LeBaron has some writings.

Your group is...what it is....and perceived....how it's perceived by those who haven't been indoctrinated by it.

Anonymous said...

atari-
your ears are full of credible bovine feces. Nothing else can get in there until you smell it, and clean it out.

The FLDS church is the ONLY church that HASN'T changed from the D&C, the History of the Church, the Journal of Discourses, or the Bible.

If Jesus Christ was a mortal today, He would be percieved exactly as the FLDS is.


CTR

ATAR_i said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ATAR_i said...

CTR

That was downright OTS-ish of you to get all disgusting. What is it with you guys about making lewd sickening comments to people (and then of course taking the moral higher ground).

Also, as an aside - we are WRITING - and...you can't see me. So your comment doesn't work on any level - whatsoever.

You can claim anything you want about who Jesus would be perceived...it's a lovely bit of speculation, but that's all. It's not truth - just because you think it, or feel it.

Anonymous said...

atari-
you said "I'm all ears", and then you say "plus, I think the sources are credible" That is why I responded the way I did. Call it ots-ish, disgusting, or whatever you like. It is the most demonstrative way I could say LIES!

My comment may not "work", but it definately "fits". I am advocating a good brain washing.

I apologize if it is an insult, I guess I should quit posting here. I am not a spiteful person, you have a tendancy to bring it out of me when you say "your religion is... what it is, and percieved..." as if YOUR perception is FACT.

YOU could be wrong.

CTR

ATAR_i said...

CTR - I want you to understand what I mean when I say

it is....what it is

Meaning - just that. It's not what I say it is, it's not what you say it is...it just is.

It exists, like all others, with some good, some bad, some wonderful, some problems.... it just is. I can't make it different by believing something about it, you can't make it different by believing something else.

It just is...like a tree - it's just there.

And it's perceived....how it is perceived - you can only change that perception with information.

But, because everyone is different - you won't know if they will perceive it more negatively, or positively even if you provide what you consider to be exonerating information.

It's not meant to say...it's bad, because I say it's bad - that's not what I meant.

And, I do find the sources credible. They lived the same experience you did, but have a different perception.

It doesn't mean they are lying, it doesn't mean you are lying - it is possible that both of you have some truth.

You have a victim thing going on...you gotta work on that.

Anonymous said...

CTR
Even the Bible forbids marrying fathers wives and the FLDS now allow that when they didn't use to, and you say "they haven't changed from the original?"

What about a trial by a high council?

Which revision of "unchanged history" are they consistent with?

Anonymous said...

Isn't it odd how everyone can be so wrong about everything. Everyone except CTR. He must speak for the prophet. How else could he be so convinced of his beliefs.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't it CTR who chastised Muggy for standing up for his beliefs?

CTR...OTS...like peas and carrots, as Forrest Gump would say

Anonymous said...

atari-
When you see an interview on TV, do you always assume it is in context? Ruth and others on this very blog who were IN that documentary, did not think it was very credible. Yet you say it is.

If forced marriage, child abuse, or welfare fraud is what you "know" about my RELIGION, then your "is", isn't. You have been indoctrinated to hate, by being decieved. And enjoying it.

A victim thing? Maybe you didn't notice that my leader is in jail, our Unitedly held property has been seized by a court appointed leech, and that good policemen are being told to choose between their religion and their "duty" to him.


anon555-
I cant find anywhere in the Bible that says not "marry" or wed a departed father's wife. I will not convince you, but it is still not in the Bible. 1 Corinthians 5:1 was about fornication and adultery, as Ruben was guilty of (Gen 49:4), not marriage.

Nor can I find any reference to the Presidency not holding higher authority than a high council.

6:00-
You are wrong.(You asked). I did not say mugs couldn't believe however he wanted. I encourage him to stand up for his beliefs. I just want the same priveledge.

Take your big rubber stamp and plaster me, I can take it. I speak for myself.

CTR

TBM said...

CTR: For anyone who wants to know without being brainwashed by Atari, MIB and apostates.

Interesting use of the word "brainwashed". I believe it was invented by 1960's spy novelist, John Le Carre, for his novel, "The Ipcress File". It involved Soviet agents kidnapping significant western leaders and smuggling them to Abania. There they would be deprived of food, sleep and warmth to break down their resistance, before subjecting them to a program of disorientating sounds and lights. This would cause them to forget everything they knew.

So for example, if the Soviets brainwashed all NATO's nuclear bomb designers, the West would lose its ability to threaten the Soviets with nuclear weapons.

Obviously, Atar_i is a secret agent, probably working for those evil Methodists, who has perfected the process so that it now works through weblogs. It is her fiendish plot to cause all us faithful, loyal Mormons to forget our faith and ... and ... ummm ... sorry, what was I saying?
:-)

TBM said...

CTR: The FLDS church is the ONLY church that HASN'T changed from the D&C, the History of the Church, the Journal of Discourses, or the Bible.


Except it now makes polygamy its entire reason for existence, which it never to the nineteenth-century church. It was only ever a voluntary option, that probably only about a quarter of Mormons engaged in.

Anonymous said...

CTR
Warren didn't even wait until Uncle Rulon passed away. But Uncle Roy referred to incidents of a deceased father. Uncle John had a son who wanted to marry one of his ladies after he passed, and was told it would be an abomination. Chuck Knudson had a son that was told no when Chuck died because it would be an abomination. With Elmer Johnson, it was also revealed it couldn't go the other way either; a father couldn't marry a son's wife (so why did Boyd marry Tammy?!), so Delone was not allowed to marry Elmer, but was instead married to Spencer. Ray Blackmore had a wife that wanted to marry one of his sons, and was told it was an abomination. Now you say, "there is nothing in the Bible against it. 1st Corinthians doesn't speak against it" Where did Uncle Roy and Uncle John get the right to speak against it? If it was wrong then, why is it right now if the gospel doesn't change. Oh I know, its called present-day-revelation; whatever pops in the prophet's mind is right, even if it is contradictory of former prophets. The only gospel you know at this point is "the prophet always and only does right". When Lyle started pounding that down our throats on Saturday, I was suspicious of a cult. When I found that the people in Zion were "working 20-hour days and praying for strength to work harder", I knew it was a cult. I asked one individual that came into town for a few hours before heading back to Zion--I asked about the 20-hour day and he stated "that should have never leaked out." Well, that confirmed the cultish behavior.

As far as high council being inferior to the prophet, does that give the prophet the right to judge without a high council trial when the D&C says that the accused have a right to a trial? Why is the prophet so high and holy as to be able to violate the D&C when you state that he doesn't?

One last question. When was the high priesthood given to the Prophet? We discout Joseph Musser because of his mental condition. If you say Warren got it from Rulon in his last days of his life, why don't we dump this whole religion and join the A.U.B.? We discount the Allred's because we claim Joseph Musser was too ill and mentally incapacitated and therefore the AUB is illegit.

Anonymous said...

CTR
If the gospel doesn't change, why are we constantly reminded to "don't use the prophets against the prophets?"

Anonymous said...

One find day in the middle of the night,
Two religious fanatics got up to fight.
Blog to Blog they faced each other,
Drew their "bible" and shot each other.

...
And if you don't believe their gospel's true,
Ask the blind follower, he see it too.

Anonymous said...

tbm-
Thanks for the brainwashing definition. I just used a word as it was used on me.

I could say that property, and tithing are the only things for whic the Corporate Mormon church exists. But I won't say that because I know that neither are true. We defend ALL of it, not just that which is convienient.

10:44-
Your first sentence is a lie.
I will defend you in that God given priveledge to doubt, and to question. To think and act for yourself. GO ahead. Just let me too.
As far as marriage, I was taught from my cradle that I was not to pick out my wife, no matter who she was. But That God would guide me, through His prophet.
"...by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power" (132:7)
Those examples of yours fit my definition.

"The prophet always does right" (D&C 21:4-5, 43:2-4) Was taught by Brigham Young, Heber C Kimball, John Taylor, Uncle Roy and many others.

About "that should never have leaked out" - Big deal. It means nothing to anyone except you who need reasons to doubt.

As far as Warrens authority, he was ordained by his father 8 months before Uncle Rulons stroke. If he is not the prophet, who is? I heard Uncle Fred say that Uncle Warren was. You might as well dump the whole religion and become Catholic.

I however, will not.

11;47-
ROFL, ...the shoe fits.

CTR

Anonymous said...

CTR
Q: "Which of all the offshoots of mormonism is correct?"

A: "Join none of them, they are all an abomination"

TBM said...

CTR: If he is not the prophet, who is?

Gordon B. Hinckley? :-)

Sorry, but the mischevous part of me couldn't resist a little dig!!!!

TBM said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ATAR_i said...

"Don't have sex with your father's wife"

(because she is a close relative NOT because it's adultry).

Leviticus 18 gives a laundry list of close relatives you aren't to have sex with.

Yes, I see Ruth quite upset at the documentary. But I also listened to the words she spoke. She said those things. She's not happy because now the prophet (the man she loves) is mad (among other FLDS individuals who caused her to be so distressed in the first place).

She blames authorities outside the FLDS - and probably with some good reason, but she would have had no need of asking their assistance had it not been for her own community.

Was she lying when she spoke it - or is she lying now?

I'll have to watch the film again to get some unedited quotes for you.

So - you can perceive sex with children in from a religious lense. You can perceive abandonment of male children through your self righteous stance. You can justify the ripping apart of families through the spiritual spyglass of your choice.

I don't have your lenses, spyglass, or religious upbringing - and I see it differently.

I think sex with children is abhorent, abandonment of males abominable and the fracturing of families as unforgivable.

It also happens to be against the law. You want to live that way - go to Thailand - you want to live here - CHANGE.

Anonymous said...

"As far as Warrens authority, he was ordained by his father 8 months before Uncle Rulons stroke. "
** How do you KNOW that?
** To what office was he (Warren) ordained?
** I heard Uncle Rulon say, "I am the last." (High Priest Apostle)

"If he is not the prophet, who is?"
** NO ONE!! Uncle Rulon was the last.

"I heard Uncle Fred say that Uncle Warren was."
** How old was Uncle Fred, and what state of health and mind was HE in at the time? I'd say very frail.

GBNF said...

Watching you retards argue over who is the real prohpet is pathetic. Get on with your life!. There is no prophet. Never has been, never will be. No one stands between you and your God.
Idiots,
Gosh.

Anonymous said...

Heard a rumor names of new vehicles used in Warren hiding were in the Eldorado paper.

ATAR_i said...

What's up with people calling people retards all the time on this board?

desert darling said...

I think that CTR is a very good representation of most FLDS men mentality.

Anonymous said...

At the risk of further arguing over "who is the prophet", it was my understanding that 8 months before the stroke, Warren was placed at the head of the political entity called "Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints", but not the "priesthood head." If that's correct, the FLDS should contact Mr. Hinkley immediately since we stated that he is the head of the corporate church, but not the priesthood.

No name calling, please; I am neither defending Mr. Hinkley or Warren; just pointing out things as I understood them.

Anonymous said...

That makes sense, anon 12:41.
This is my understanding:

The head of the church (FLDS or LDS) is NOT a prophet in terms of being ORDAINED a High Priest Apostle by the SENIOR (one man) High Priest Apostle of which the LAST was Rulon T. Jeffs. The Melchisidek Priesthood leader (one man) is a higher authority than the leader of the so-called Church -- ANY church.

Uncle Roy ordained no one else (to the High Priest Apostleship), nor did Uncle Rulon.

Mr. Hinckley certainly has zero power over your lives.

Your current FLDS tyrant pseudo-prophet has no hold or authority over you -- only to the degree that you ALLOW it. You are as close to your God as he is -- and in my opinion, closer.

Warren's activities and actions have borne rotten fruit. It's up to you to sow your own seeds, cultivate them and harvest your own good fruit.

You already know how. The power and goodness are WITHIN you. They have been all along.

One Who Knows

ATAR_i said...

So how does one get an ordained prophet if there is none now, and the last one is dead. Is this circumstance discussed in any of the FLDS materials.

I'm suprised that Rulon didn't ordain his son, he knew his end was near, and it WOULD have been done earlier if that's what he truly wanted.

It makes me wonder if he saw something in his son that wouldn't allow him to do it. Perhaps he didn't want to insult warren to his face, and assumed (wrongly) that by default the title would go to someone else if he just ignored it.

onthestreet said...

All prophets are ordained by God Himself, and each one has an heir. It is an endless priesthood, which means endless.

muggsey said...

I suppose you have witnessed such an ordination. In what form did your god appear? Michael the Archangel, Satan the deceiver, Adam the created first man?

If you received second hand information as to the ordination it might be wise to require any witness to the event to come forward in order to be cross-examined so absolute truth may be determined and the lie discovered.

Oh, I forgot, truth has no bearing on your beliefs. The whole primace of your testimony is built upon a lie, from the very first seance of Joseph Smith, why would it change now?

Anonymous said...

muggsy,
suppose the devil came and told you the truth, would you believe it?

Anonymous said...

anon, 10/03 4:5o
if the devel came to you,(and you knew it was the devil) and told you something you knew was the truth, would you stop believing that it was the truth?

Bluebeard.

Anonymous said...

Is it dark in the forest when you are not there?
How do you know?

Anonymous said...

Bluebeard says,

my coment wasent a mere play on words,iwanted to illustrate the concept that we should seek the truth for the truths sake,and not rely on a percived authorty for what we believe,or disbelieve.

PS. arboreal illumination is independant of my presents.

Anonymous said...

onthestreet said...
All prophets are ordained by God Himself, and each one has an heir. It is an endless priesthood, which means endless.

Street there is only one endless priesthood now. JESUS

Joseph Smith Inspired Version
Hebrew Chapter 7 11-27
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchizedek, and not be called after the order of Aaron?

12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.

14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.(STREET TAKE NOTE)

15 And it is yet far more evident; for that after the similitude of Melchizedek there ariseth another priest,

16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.(JESUS CHRIST)

17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.

18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before, for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

19 For the law was administered without an oath and made nothing perfect, but was only the bringing in of a better hope; by the which we draw nigh unto God.

20 Inasmuch as this high priest was not without an oath, by so much was Jesus made the surety of a better testament.

21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest forever after the order of Melchizedek;)

22 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death;

23 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.

24 Wherefore he (JESUS) is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

25 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made ruler over the heavens;

26 And not as those high priests who offered up sacrifice daily, first for their own sins, and then for the sins of the people; for he needeth not offer sacrifice for his own sins, for he knew no sins; but for the sins of the people. And this he did once, when he offered up himself.

27 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated forevermore.

CHAPTER 8
Of the priesthood -- The new covenant.

1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum; we have such a high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man. (STREET TAKE NOTE)

3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices; wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

4 Therefore while he was on the earth, he offered for a sacrifice his own life for the sins of the people. Now every priest under the law, must needs offer gifts, or sacrifices, according to the law.

5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle; for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount.

6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.(STREET REALLY TAKE NOTE)

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah;

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers, in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts; and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people;

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord; for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. (STREET TAKE NOTE)



Street being a prophet is one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit. There can be more than one prophet and a woman can prophesy also.

Here are some verse for you to ponder, Street.

Joseph Smith Inspired Version

1 Corinthians Chapter 11: 4-5
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoreth his head.

5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoreth her head; for that is even all one as if she were shaven.

Chapter 14: 1-5 and 29-33
1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.

2 For he that speaketh in another tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God; for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.

4 He that speaketh in another tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied; for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.

29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.

30 If anything be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.

31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.

33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

muggsey said...

10/3 4:50

The devil (Satan) cannot speak the truth, he is the father of all lies. Anything originating with Satan is a lie and therefore not the truth. In other words, anything that can be traced directly to Satan is a lie. He never tells the truth about anything.

He may shade his temptations with elements of truth but the temptation itself is a lie therefore not truth. This is why he is also known as the accuser and deceiver.

onthestreet said...

10/04/2006 12:43 PM

I'm sorry, what did you say? "One man at a time on the earth", saith the Lord.

muggsey said...

I said what I said, nothing more nor less.

onthestreet said...

Ahh, but you ARE les.

muggsey said...

better to be les, than nothing.

onthestreet said...

No, nothingness is the Head God, as the receiver of all creation when "Heavens and earths pass away", unto Him, the "black hole" of a galaxy.

Nothingness is the complete sacrifice, the unloading of the camel, so that you may enter the gate of heaven through the "eye of the needle", the tiny space under the wall of the city. This is the abyss, the perfect knowledge of a perfect course in life, the Holy Grail, the all-seeing-eye, the "National Treasure", the Ark of Covenant and Promise.

Anonymous said...

onthestreet said...
10/04/2006 12:43 PM

I'm sorry, what did you say? "One man at a time on the earth", saith the Lord.

10/06/2006 10:45 PM

NO STREET
I guess your glasses are weak.
Verse 29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.

32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.


I believe "prophet" is plural, more that "one".

But I guess if you want to be techincal, there is only "one" holding "priesthood".

CHRIST JESUS

muggsey said...

PRIEST and KING

onthestreet said...

10/11/2006 1:07 AM

See, One Man over them all, else you have nothing but confusion and multi-headed monsters. "I the Lord am a God of Order, and not a God of confusion" (I Cor. 14):

33. For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

34. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

35. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

36. What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?

37. If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

38. But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

onthestreet said...

I Kings 26:9
And David said to Abishai, Destroy him not: for who can stretch forth his hand against the LORD's anointed, and be guiltless?

One man, King over Israel in each generation, and the King of Kings is Christ Himself. See? And Michael is His Prince over us forever, and God told Him in Genesis.

muggsey said...

PRIEST OF THE MOST HIGH GOD AND KING OF SALEM. No geneology, not of the Aaronic priesthood. Not of the house or linage of Abraham, therfore never subject to the law.

No other priest, until Jesus, could be compared to Melchisedec.

This PRIEST, appointed directly of GOD, was not subject to sin as was Aaron or any Levite. ONLY JESUS could and can meet that same standard. Anyone else is being appointed by man, a created being, subject in all things to THE MOST HIGH GOD.

Any person claiming to be of this HIGH ORDER is a false prophet and errant priest.

See Galatians 1:6-10 Look it up yourself, if you can find it! This little epistle is located between II Corinthians and Ephesians.

onthestreet said...

You make God out to be most inconsistent, and a liar, for the Lord says that He ALWAYS speaks through a Prophet, from the beginning of time unto the end of time. It is part of the trial and brotherhood of the gods, until the 144,000 saviour on Mount Zion have their harvest (Rev. 14:1).

Mark 1:2
The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

As it is written in the prophets, Behold, I send my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

As John prepared the way for Christ then, as the scripture says: The Lord sends His messenger for thee also, if you can receive it, and be saved.

Jer. 25:4
And the LORD hath sent unto you all his servants the prophets, rising early and sending them; but ye have not hearkened, nor inclined your ear to hear.

onthestreet said...

Les says (10/12/2006 10:52 AM):
Any person claiming to be of this HIGH ORDER is a false prophet and errant priest.

Many persons are ordained to the High Priesthood, even Michael, and Christ, and His disciples, and they are all "persons". You say:

"Any person claiming that order is a false prophet".

So like we have been saying all along, your lie is obvious, and you call Christ and His disciples "false prophets", for they are persons claiming it.

Even your father Abraham made this claim: "I have now found a Priethood after the Order of God". But you calling him a "false prophet" for claiming it, cuts you off from your father and your God, which makes you a bastard.

muggsey said...

Read the book. I didn't write it, but evidently it struck a raw nerve. You might also want to check out Hebrews 7. You might want to read verse 25 several times. Jesus is not of Levi but through Mary of Juda(h), a descendent of David, the King. None other name is given in heaven or on earth whereby men must be saved. At the Name of Jesus every knee will bow and every tongue confess.

See Hebrews 7

20. And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:

21. (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)

22. By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.

23. And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:

24. But this man, because he contueth ever, hath an unchangable priesthood.

25. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

You are a liar ots. The text from Galatians and this passage from Hebrews speaks in plain language. It does not deny the priesthood of Christ Jesus. It plainly states that anyone who claims the SAME priesthood that has been ordered of GOD for Jesus only, is a FALSE PROPHET.

This means that Warren Jeffs, Rulon Jeffs, You or any other MAN who claims to be of that order that can be only bestowed by GOD, the order of Melchisedec, intended for JESUS only, is a FALSE PROPHET.

onthestreet said...

Gen. 6:18
But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

The covenant of the Priesthood pertains to that order of Priesthood. So if a Prophet (in this case, Noah), and also his sons and their wives, are established in that order and covenant, then they are entered into the ark of that covenant. Thus, the "Ark of the Covenant".

Do you understand it?

Michael is an ark, or arch, and His covenant archs to all who abide in Him, after His order, which is the Highest Order of Priesthood, or the Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God. Melchizadek, the son of Noah, was so tried and proven before and after the flood, that he was the chosen one to follow after that Order. Thus, Melchizadek Priesthood.

Anonymous said...

Attention K-Mart shoppers:

We are running a special close-out sale on the Melchizadek Priesthood Arks on aisle 14.

Can we get a wet clean-up there please?

onthestreet said...

To all parties herewith: The prostitute has been sold to the Seared of mind and hardened heart, her merchandise spurned in kind and to part.

muggsey said...

Three different arks. Noah's dimintions for his ark are given in Genesis Chapt. 6. This ark was a boat, built by Noah of Gopher wood divided into rooms and covered outside and inside with pitch. 300 cubits in length, 50 cubits wide and thirty cubits high.

The ark was completed for the sole purpose of saving created animals and a very select group of persons from the devistation of the flood.
There were only eight persons on the ark. Those persons were Noah, Shem, Ham & Japeth and their wives. No polygamy, only one wife for each man.

The ark that was built of bullrushes in which to hide Moses from the wrath of Pharoah. demintions are not given but we are told that it was lined with slime and pitch and it was placed in the waters of the Nile near where Pharoah's daughter routinely bathed.

The third ark, the Ark of the Covenant, described in Exodus Chapter 37 was constructed of shittim wood, 2 1/2 cubits in length, 1 1/2 cubits in breadth, 1 1/2 cubits in height, overlaid with pur gold, outside and inside, it was topped with a crown of gold, had four rings, one on each corner for transportation. Two poles of shittim, covered with pure gold. were to be inserted into the rings on either side and sas used only to transport the ark. This ark was crowned with a "mercy seat" of pure gold, 2 1/2 cubits long, 1/1/2 cubits wide. Cast cherib were placed upon the lid of the ark with their wings spread forward to cover the mercy seat. Placed inside were: two tablets of stone, upon which Moses had carved the law, as given by God, a pot of mannah and Aaron's rod that budded.

The purpose of this ark was to serve as the place where the High Priest, of the house and lineage of Aaron, went on one day each year, the day of Attonement, to sprinkle blood on the mercy seat as an act of worship toward God as an offering for redemption for his (the High Priest's sins) and the sins of the nation.

Each of the arks were designed for a particular purpose.

The particular covenant that God established with Noah was exclusive, to save he and his family from the ravages of the flood. Noah was given specific instructions and in order to show obedience to God, Noah followed each insturction to the letter. As a result, as promised, God saved Noah, this three sons and their wives from destruction by the flood. Don't go reading things into this passage that are not there nor were ever intended.

Moses ark bore his infant body through the waters of the Nile, as was God's plan, into the household of pharoah.

The Ark of the Covenant has a longer and much more detailed history. It represented God's mercy toward a wandering and disobedient people for forty years. It began it's purpose in an especially prepared tent. A pillar of Cloud was present over it in the day and a pillar of Fire by night. As God gave Moses instructions regarding when and where to move the people seven trumpets were sounded. The first was to announced to the people to prepare to move, the seventh, a command to begin their journey. The ark was carried before the people in all their wanderings.

After crossing the Jordan it was in the tent or Temple of worship when it was set up in Shiloh, moved to Jerusalem and finally placed in the Holy of Holies, behind the Veil of the Temple when King Soloman built the Temple on Temple Mt. in Jerusalem.

This ark somehow does not appear in any Biblical reference following the Babylonian Captivity.

Israel, thinking the ark had magical powers, took it from the tabernacle and used it as an amulet, supposed to protect them in war. It was carried before Israel in a war with Philistia and was captured following Israel's defeat. This act of the people was one of self will. God was not consulted prior to their decision. Following it's capture it's presence in pagan temples caused great problems for the Philistines and they finally returned it to Israel via a cart pulled by two heifers.

On one occassion, when David first attempted to bring the ark from Shiloh to Jerusalem it was loaded upon a cart, the cart struck a rock or rut and the ark was in danger of falling to the ground. A well intentioned soldier, but not a concecrated priest reached with his hand to steady the ark and was struck dead on the spot.

Each of the above described arks was unique each with a designated specific purpose.

muggsey said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
muggsey said...

Your intent to somehow use the arks as a vehicle to include any individual into any priesthood is in gross error. It seems as if your concordance comes up with a word that is common in more than one place within scripture. You then attempt to tie all of the particular incidents together whether there is any relationship between them or not.

This is just another example of Joseph Smith's attempt to control the lives, minds and fortues of those individuals foolish enough to follow his convoluted and error plagued teaching by promising them anything to gain their loyalty.

onthestreet said...

MUkky Said: You then attempt to tie all of the particular incidents together whether there is any relationship between them or not.

STREET's Reply: All things are one, and unify into one unified force. This is "unification theory" manifest, controlling all creation that is intelligent enough to be controlled and blessed by the Lord. All else goes into dissolution and native element.

muggsey said...

Take your stupid unification theory and file it under impossible. At least so during the present dispensation.

The only circumstance under which there is unity is those who are "one" in Christ. I plead attoned by this unity and am thrilled that HE included me.

I am not in unity with you, nor, if you continue in your current unhinged condition, do I suppose that we will ever become unified.

Unification in your confused mind is relative to only those things you perceive to be in unity with your little pigmy world.

onthestreet said...

Snicker-Snicker: You're like a Snicker candy bar (yummy), WITH A PILE OF ANTS ALL OVER IT. Does anyone still want a bite?

Now, what does that say? "Consider the ant, thou sluggard". They are so small and insignificant, and loathsome, like the FLDS to a filthy world, and yet they can just plain destroy a good dinner, they being so united.

"The eagles will gather where the carcass is."

To be united with your confusion would be the opposite of unity, but just confusion heaped up like a dunghill, and you call that "one in Christ"?

Ants are "pigmy", and yet so united that the Lord Jesus Christ uses them as an example of unity and greatness.

Unification in an effort to serve God and keep His commandments is NEVER "stupid", as you put it.

muggsey said...

Round and round and round he goes and where he's going no one knows. Not even ots.

I am still not in unity with you so cut out your plea. I ain't gettin' on board.

Your boat is without power, dead in the water, without a bildge pump, is full of holes, has no direction, map or chart, keel or rudder or an anchor to assist when the gales of truth batter your frail bark. You are sunk and don't even know it. Your only defense is a larger smoke screen. What you don't know is that the weather is clear. It's hard to hide a smoke screen on a clear day.

onthestreet said...

Yes, man is frail, and all of humanity has the death sentence proclaimed upon you. But if saints are weak, and without power, certainly their Christ is not. If the green branches get broken and singed, what will happen to the dry ones.

Leslie, they said the same thing of Christ: You are sunk, and don't even know it. That is: If you are god, come down from that cross and save yourself. He could save others, but He can't even save Himself. Finally, He looked up (not down), and cried: "Eloi, Eloi, why has thou forsaken me".

But LO!!! Within hours, he sat in absolute authority over them all.

muggsey said...

Those very words of my Lord, Jesus Christ uttered when God turned his back upon that which Jesus had assumed upon himself. JESUS BECAME SIN. ALL THE SIN OF ALL MANKIND, PAST, PRESENT AND FUTURE. WHEN JESUS GAVE UP HIS LIFE ON THE CROSS, SIN, WHICH HE HAD TAKEN UPON HIMSELF DIED, ALONG WITH JESUS' PHYSICAL BODY FOR ALL TIME. FORGIVNESS FOR SIN IS NOW IN THE HANDS OF A MERCIFUL SAVIOR WHO EVEN NOW BLOTS OUT THE SIN IN THE LIFE OF THOSE WHO TRUST IN HIS SHED BLOOD AS THE ETERNAL SACRIFICE PAID IN FULL, FOR ALL TIME AS THE ONE TIME SIN PRICE FROM WHICH SINNERS ARE REDEEMED. THE PENALTY OF SIN IS PAID, the earthly consequences of an indivual's sin remain with him/her for his/her lifetime, as a constant reminder to the individual of the cost of his/her sin which was paid in full by Christ's blood, in HIS death on the cross.