Thursday, August 31, 2006

What happens now?

Any one know what the FLDS will do? There must be rumblings...

186 comments:

fttc said...

I think many are still in shock. I know one man who said the Lord would not allow warren to be caught. There have been posts here that said the same thing so I think the idea was widespread among believers. It will take some time for the truth to settle in and the spin on the facts to take place. They will spin it. There is enough organization that things will not immediately fall apart. It still is not know whether warren will be released on bail. If he is it will add a whole new aspect to the saga.

Anonymous said...

Warren Jeffs in Court

From the Nevada Polygamy Website

After a wild car ride to the courthouse (alarm issues...), I was able to get a 2nd row seat for Warren Jeffs hearing. Eviction notices were heard before Mr. Jeffs hearing began. Men and women fighting to keep from being kicked out of their homes. I found that rather ironic. I noticed right away that the Regional Justice Center was occupied by an unusual amount of police. Members of the Las Vegas Metropolitan Police Department SWAT team were posted in the halls and on each side of the jury box (where Mr. Jeffs would stand). Off camera, in a hallway, a SWAT team member stood with an automatic rifle drawn, just in case.

He had one supporter in the courtroom. A single man, probably Isaac Jeffs, clenched his jaw repeatedly, his face flushed when his prophet arrived. Mr. Jeffs stood in silence, flanked by LVMPD SWAT members, as the judge read through the proceeding. I couldn't help but notice how thin he was. "I guess I'll... Get going with the extradition" was all he said. He was handed papers informing him that he was denied bail, and then shuffled out. His one supporter stood quickly, out of respect for his prophet, as Jeffs left the room.

The state of Utah has 30 days to come and get Mr. Jeffs. Then he'll be off to Washington County to face two counts of rape as an accomplice.

onthestreet said...

Been mourning the martyrdom of a true Prophet, by a perverse and fallen nation. The authorities are bragging how he sweat and trembled, and his veins pulsing with life! SO TRUE, as the very thing is said of Christ. “He trembled, and sweat from every pour”, and yet pulsed with life! (Mt. 27:39): “They reviled him, wagging their heads (like tails): “And the head shall be the tail, and the tail shall be the head”. “Thou that destroyest (families), and buildest the temple in three days, save thyself. He saved others; Himself He cannot save. He trusted in God. Let Him deliver Him if He will have him” (Mt. 27: 40-43).

I never saw a man more dignified in all my life, a king standing there in shackles before dejected beggars, scrapping for a morsel of something, anything, whatever they could get to satisfy the perversity of their minds and their cameras for a gullible nation. His stride, demeanor, and light, even in shackles, is the splitting image of an angel, his father.

We’ve all heard say in the news, by the authorities and many others, that this is PROOF that he is not protected nor honored by God, nor a god himself on this earth. This very thing was said at Christ’s extradition and “being caught” in his crimes. I guess to you this is PROOF that he (Jesus) was not the Christ, nor a god, nor protected by his Father, hour God and mine. “And they reviled him, wagging their heads (like tails). I repeat it: I never saw, in all my years on this earth, SUCH DIGNITY and honor and kingship as I saw today at the extradition of the Prophet Warren Jeffs, a king amoung a great host of beggars.

I know that he didn’t rape a single girl. However, he has kicked out MANY for that very cause, TO PROTECT those very girls, and the whole world is witness to it. He is only charged with the marriage of the most innocent, the Bat Mitzvah, the ancient tradition at age twelve, and this law is eternal. Only man changes God’s law, but man proposes and God disposes. It will not be long now.

And Jesus said unto them: “A Prophet is not without honor, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house. And He could there do no mighty work (thus is he deemed a failure Himself)…and He marvelled because of their unbelief (Mark 6:4-6). I only marvel at the Prophet Warren’s tremendous dignity in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Anonymous said...

Most of the good folks in Warren's ranks honestly don't believe that he has been caught. He thinks that the government is perpetrating a hoax to try to get their guards down.
Nothing will change. He will continue to rule from prison. Just like the mafia dons have for a century. Things might just take a little longer to trickle down. . .

Anonymous said...

Looks like OTS is back in all his glory. Hey Isaac, how were the casinos?

Anonymous said...

Well we see once again that OTS is not WSJ.Is Val back home?

muggsey said...

hello streetie! cheer up, you're next.

Oh, woe is me for I am undone!!!!

IF Warren hadn't been indicted, IF Warren had not run to escape charges brought against him in two separate states, IF Warren hadn't crossed a state line to escape, IF Warren hadn't been named to the FBI's 10 most wanted list, IF Warren hadn't had the audacity to parade around in a red Cadillac with 55K + $$$ in cash in the car, IF he had been smart enough to have the car registered in the name of the individual who was to drive the car, IF Warren hadn't attempted to fool the Nevada Highway Patrol with a phony optician's receipt for ID, IF at every turn Warren was as smart as he would have YOU to believe him to possess divine capabilities than you might have a valid point of argument. But, since all the above incidents DID happen and Warren is now in custody, when you overcome your shock go cry on someone who cares shoulder. I rejoice that at last he will have to answer some of the charges. Now the truth will come out.

Regarding dress: his celestial wife's clothing and his own do not reflect the dogma that he dictates to his followers. Why did'nt an angel come and open the doors of the jail to allow his escape if he is so righteous. Why was he carrying keys to ten new luxury automobiles in his pocket? Who paid for these luxuries? The very ones whom he has led about like lambs to slaughter.

Your lament is pathetic.

onthestreet said...

Ten keys and in shorts! Ten Sefirot, the Heavenly Hosts, the Lord now cutting His work SHORT. Jesus Himself was STRIPPED. PROOF of his fraud? Do you see? Oh, do you see?

ATAR_i said...

OTS, whatever helps you sleep at night, whatever stories make reality easier to bear.

Did you physically see warren standing in shackles or was it just your mind, picturing what he looked like in shackles?

Anonymous said...

OTS, I appreciate your post. I can not get over how clearly you claimed Warren has never molested even a single girl. Oh, but wait a moment. His nephew is a BOY.
So what happened? Was he forgiven? Cleansed from his sin--by his father perhaps? So he doesn't need to account to the lowly law of this country for actions of the past?

Anonymous said...

can anyone tell me why warrent jeffs, winston blackmore etc etc have so many wives?

take blackmore for instance, he has approximately 100 children...there is no way a father can have quality time with a child on a regular basis...there are not enough hours in the day

on the street....how can you believe that this type of family is superiour?????

Anonymous said...

Heavenly Father has billions upon billions of children, and is able to know each one, yeah, even count the number of hairs on their heads.

Anonymous said...

how can you all think your life is superior, and what gives you the right to persicute me for mine. I love warren Jeffs. I know he is not quilty. You are only hearing media hype. I know all the people involved. and who was it that defended the inacent? i say my flag is flown at half mast. My heart does cry to my God. My heart does cry in mercy for all that would destroy an inacent man.

Here you have a person who publickly says what he did to JonBenay, yet evidence was not there to back up his story. so much for media hype.

and it was written, they did persicute the prophets and woe woe, unto the nation who seek after the blood of the inacent. May God have mercy on your souls for just like Christ when they did persicut him, he did say unto them, "God forgive them, they know not what they do."

think then how more tragic it is when a man is accused and he is guilty of no sin and the people involved know he is not guilty of sin and willinly pertake of condemning an inacent man.

In Joseph's day they did bring in a mob. they did say that if the law could not touch him powder and ball would. then they did think to stop the church of Christ then. And has it ended?
I am a fundamental morman. I can not imagine living the way you all live one stitch. and when you think about it if you were raised that way and all the people you knew were too, you would be sitting around wining and pining trying to figure out what was wrong with your husband because he did not have another wife.

in rightouseness. and the law is written in every language, in every culture, in every nation around the world. How many of you are walking for peace and how many are you are looking for war. I am sure that you all will find it. there is a war brewing. enlist and the one's who want peace will have it too, because when you are all gone to meet our God and be judged by him we will be planting our corn and our gardens. We will be building our houses and we will not have to live with liars and theifs...........And Jesus is our law giver.......and we walk with him. and you are as strange to me as you claim i am to you. and if you do not like me, then who cares? you never did. and if you do who cares, i want him. i did not want the ways of the world.

and street, i am glad you are back. they are only hammering you saying that you are some one else because this some one else does defend the inacent too. and may God give us streanth to go through what we all have to endure from the insults and hatred of others and especially those who would condemn an inacent man; and deliver us from the one's who know he is inacent and accuse........and may we all have power to repent of our sins before our judgment day..........

Anonymous said...

If I could bottle the stuff OTS and 8:53 are taking, I could pay off all the morgages of the FLDS and be neighbors with Bill Gates!

ATAR_i said...

anon 8:53

No one hates you, I know that I don't. I imagine that this would be very hard on you, to you it is a very sad day.

There is something that doesn't make sense to me, and perhaps you can explain it.

People who I respect, whom I know love God, and whom I've spent countless hours, and known for as long as I can remember. They have had hidden things, that have suprised me.

It's something most of us have experienced. People who we love and respect who are good decent people have participated in activities which are sometimes shocking.

I think that all of us are capable of hiding undesireable qualities. It doesn't mean that we are horrid people, or that we don't love God, it just means we're human and we need Gods forgiveness and grace.

Anyhow, I know you want to believe the best in your prophet, and don't want to consider this possibility that he is anything other than what he has allowed you to see - who wouldn't want to believe that about someone they loved.

Unfortunately - wanting it to be true, and believing it's true isn't always the reality of the situation. It's OK to want those things, and to support someone - but it might be wise to at least prepare yourself for the possibility that you might learn something about warren that will dissapoint you.

He was found not wearing his sacred garments, rather, wearing shorts and a short sleeved shirt. How do you process that? Do you rationalize it, or make it a lie?

onthestreet said...

TAR Said (8/31/2006 9:53 PM): anon 8:53

No one hates you, I know that I don't. I imagine that this would be very hard on you, to you it is a very sad day. There is something that doesn't make sense to me, and perhaps you can explain it. People who I respect, whom I know love God, and whom I've spent countless hours, and known for as long as I can remember. They have had hidden things, that have suprised me.

It's something most of us have experienced. People who we love and respect who are good decent people have participated in activities which are sometimes shocking. I think that all of us are capable of hiding undesireable qualities.

He was found not wearing his sacred garments, rather, wearing shorts and a short sleeved shirt. How do you process that? Do you rationalize it, or make it a lie?


STREET’s Reply: These kinds of people “who have hidden things”, skeletons, participating in “shocking activities and have undesirable qualities”, as you say: You “spend countless hours with them, people you love and respect, as good decent people”? SHAME ON YOU. That’s the pot calling the kettle black, as they say. Your poppycock seductions turn white into black and black into white, as putrid as the pot you have attatched to your sewer line. Your lame efforts to turn a Prophet into your toilet merely fling you into your own outhouse.

A prophet wearing shorts and t-shirt? Prophets are even naked when they bathe, and the Prophet was certainly bathing the filth of the likes of you from his very personage. Even Joseph walked the streets of Nauvoo with a cigar in his mouth, not lit mind you, but to flush the hypocrit. Even Christ, they stripped. The shorts are symbolic of the archtype, which is God cutting His work SHORT.

You say to Ruth and others: “No one hates you”. You do nothing else but hate. If you hate our Father Warren, God with us, then you hate us as much as Satan and his hosts do, whom ye serve. Get ye hense.

Anonymous said...

So, what happens now?

This is the perfect chance for one of the power hungry brothers to make their move. They have been running CC in Warren's absence and I'll bet they are getting used to (addicted) ruling with an iron fist. If Warren gets jail time I'll bet one of them takes over.

onthestreet said...

WHAT HAPPENS NOW:

All of the following blessings are promised in the Celestial Law, and constitutional to his very name (realizing that the "J" is "Y" in Hebrew, and the "F" is "P", and that each Hebrew letter has an eternal meaning and power: JEFFS:

Y- Crown: The Infinate Point
E- Divine Providence
P- Revelation Above
P- Revelation Below
S- Endless Cycle

Anonymous said...

y'all mormons need to learn how to spell. if only jeffs wanted you to go to school past the 7th grade! you are uneducated oafs, and this jeffs con-man is playing y'all - taking your $$$, buying a RED 2007 escalade (only celebrities in LA can afford those, and hip hop stars), and carrying ipods, cell phones, and without the jesus jammies. HE DOESN'T FOLLOW THE RULES HE MAKES YOU LIVE YOUR LIVES BY. so go on, put your shorts on, get an ipod, and buy yourself a red bike - satan will not strike you dead.

Digital Dig said...

I grew up in a fundamentalist group, not FLDS. I remember each week thrilled to listen to the "Prophet" I put him on a pedastal that precluded imperfection. I remember many years later, the moment I realized he too had a weak side. I see the years it took me to think for myself.

It was painful to see Warren Jeffs arrested, not because he is right or wrong, but because those who arrested Him, ie agencies of the US government, have done far worse. Because what he allegedly has done wrong is just an orthodox version of wrongs that proceed through all society. Because the alledged wrongs he has done will be attributed to the institution of polygamy, not weakness in human nature that affects all society.

I have only one wife today though years ago, when associated in a polygamist group, I had three. When I left the group, they left me, A long story of course.

Fundamentalists tend to be mindless no less than the rest of society. Some listen to the "prophet". Others the five o clock news and beleive those illusions. Today I do not see a great deal of difference in the various forms of "prophet" people find to base their lives on in the absence really thinking for themselves.

If Warren Jeffs participated in an institution that does not promote freedom of choice, that does not grant individual right of choice, that does not all in its power to teach all to think for themselves, to that extent He and his followers are wrong but no more than most all of society. If Warren Jeffs has committed sexual crimes, I wander by whose standards he is to be judged. If Warren Jeffs is found guilty of sexual crimes, I wander if he will be treated like others so found guilty.

The FLDS people have the right to do as they do and should be respected in their differences unless they really are harming others. Unfortunately we are living in a society where shoving each others values down each other throats or up each others a**es is in vogue.

When I participated in a polygamist group I certainly was lost in a form of mindless fanatacism, I did not know it. I was sincere and atempted to do what I thought right. I actually harmed others mentally and emotionally without really realizing it. I was harmed mentally and emotionally and hardly knew it. Today I realize it was not because I was a polygamist, it was because I was young and stupid, ie. human.

Most of the polygamists are tremendously fine folks who some day will grow up. When they do, we will then have fine grown up polygamists, even finer folks then they are now. In the mean time, I would like them to have their Warren Jeffs, minus his youthful indescretions, just because they want it. If young children truly are being damaged then means must be employed to curtail this problem short of the genocide of a religious society that wants to be different.

Anonymous said...

and make no mistake; any one that hates Warren Jeffs is no freind of mine. and i do not care if you hate me. I hope you do and you stay far, far away from me. and i hope you stay far, far away from my city. and i echo.....get thee hence

muggsey said...

To see Warran Jeffs as he appeared yesterday, in court, to either fight or accept the State of Utah's extridition request was a real eye-opener.

Jeffs appeared as if he was walking around in a daze. Yes, he was shackled hand and foot. Yes he was surrounded by police officers and the Las Vegas "Swat" team. Why? Two reasons come to mind.

1.) To ensure his protection from those from outside his little kingdom whom his edicts have harmed.

2.) To ensure that his appearance before the judge was in order so that he could obtain equal justice under law. He has been on the run for the past couple of years, after all.

I personally think that it will be extremely difficult for either the prosecution or defense to gather an impartial jury in Washington County. Jeffs is too well known, his antics are too well known. Those former FLDS people who have broken with Jeffs, or prior to his having come to power, if called would be prejudicial for the prosecution. Those who are still in FLDS and answer to Jeffs would be predjucial in favor of the plaintiff. Using normal methods of securing a jury would ensure that the jury panel would be made up of a cross section of the population of Washington County who are registered to vote. Polygamists, or those who favor polygamy would tend to favor Jeffs. Those who oppose polygamy would tend to condem Jeffs. That being the case, a change in venue is the only possibility of a having a remotely fair trial.

muggsey said...

An addendum to my previous post.

The pending court action against Warren Jeffs is related to his having assisted, by giving in marriage underage girls to mature men as "celestial" wives. The reason for his troubles is that by performing these ceremonies, he gave accent for the men to rape children. His participation in this event is considered as enabling the rapist to commit a crime against a child. As this trial progresses I suspect that more and more women will see that Warren is neutered and therefore begin to come forward and testify against Jeffs because he forced them to marry older men when they were just children.

With Jeffs in custody, and a broader investigation having begun, I suspect that new charges will be found that will enable the court to file second, third, fourth etc. possibilities for endictment. When the battle is completed in Utah, then he faces similar charges in Arizona. Following those he faces Federal Charges for his running to avoid prosecution.

Jeffs, who was caught the night of August 29 is still in jail as of the last report I have seen. No angel of the Lord has broken his bonds and thus allowed his escape. He certainly does not possess the favor of God as did Peter and Paul.

If Adam is god, and god is Omnipotent, Omnissiant, and Omnipresent, just how was Satan able to trick him (Adam) whom you call god, into eating the fruit, no matter how inticing Eve's wiles. If Adam were god, he could have destroyed both Satan and Eve immediately and created for himself a new mate and continued to live in the Garden in fellowship with God.

Who created the Garden?

Adam named the creatures, but they were created prior to his, Adam's, creation.

I do not intend to get into a discussion of x = y. I can be inventive too but will not enter into how letters in Hebrew equal letters from the Latin alphabet or Latan vs. Greek. The hypothesis is absolutely silly, has absolutely nothing to substantuate the reason behind the prattle. It only serves to confuse those simple enough to be duped by its comparison with Holy Writ. That is, The Bible, alone.

Anonymous said...

Muggsey your novel is as good as the Mormons!!

Anonymous said...

I see you only read your bible in part. and i am glad you can stay in your side of the world and i hope you never come to mine. and i repeat, if you are an enamy to My friend that you all lie and slander I hope you stay far away from me. Stay out of my city.

Anonymous said...

I didn't see the fear you saw as I watched the news reports, perhaps tired but not fear. His eyes showed his rightful contempt for the court, and these judges and lawyers who whore around cheating and beating their wives, and then come in in the morning with their pious expressions and solemn declarations to protect the innocent.
As for Adam, apparently you haven't done much more then surface research. Adam wasn't tricked, he made a purposeful decision to partake so he could join Eve in the lone and dreary world and thus fulfill the greater commandment to multiply and replenish the earth. Get your facts straight or shut up.

Anonymous said...

i second the motion. Get your facts straight or shut up. ye feinds from the eternal pit! and stay out of my city.

Anonymous said...

and the Utah and Arizonia district attorneys need hung for treason. and if there are any honest law men, left it will be done. with plenty of evidence, too.

muggsey said...

Oh boy, I rattled your chains didn't I!

Your society is so closed that nothing except that which your prophets wish for you to hear has filtered down to you.

I don't hate you. I don't know you so how could I pass judgement on you in particular. I will tell you this, if I want to come to
your town I will do so under the protection of the same document that guarantees you your freedoms, the Constitution of the United States of America. I suggest that you read the Constitution, that is if you are able to understand it's simple English. Check the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Ammendments and discover that slavery was abolished years ago. You don't have do follow your leader, just follow the Lord. Incidently, the Lord never left a message for humanity in the Book Of Mormon. It's a fabrication from start to finish, written by a fraud, soothsayer, adulterer, and lier. Your rebuttal to my posts reminds me of a mad dog snapping and growling at anything that comes into it's path. Go, take a tranquilizer, and a cold shower, calm down and review my post. It is based upon Biblical Scripture, not some hoax passed off as a nineteenth revelation to a jerk.

This post is offered to you so that you can better understand how those outside your commune think. Your lives and thoughts have been so controlled from the time of your birth that you couldn't recognize truth if it bit your posterior.

Anonymous said...

"y'all mormons need to learn how to spell"

yes mi have noticed on these various forums that polygamists are very uneducated...their grammar and spelling are a dead give away

the flds are notorious for under-educating their followers...myself, i want my son to learn as much as possible about the outside world...good and bad

i want him to study other cultures, religions, governments...the more he learns, the better choices he will make in life

the flds want their children ignorant of anything other than what is their belief system...how else can you ensure your population to blindly follow?

Anonymous said...

I do not want to know what you think. I have already heard. And you are the one who proved your point. I know i can not keep you from coming to my city, but you are not welcome. and the same law that protects you protects me. and frankly i do not care what you think. you are told certian things all your life too. Are you sure it was not you that is brain washed? Just think of the news headings that would make; brain washed idiot faces down ten other brain washed idiots in court; and who for sure knows which brain washed idiot is the most sensible of idiots. nice argument right. Stay out of my city.

onthestreet said...

AND SO, THUS SAITH THE JERK OF MODERNITY, what them pilots call an LZ (Landing Zone), just looking for a place to land from off his high horse.

Anonymous said...

Muggsey really you need to get real about quoting the bible!! Its just as fictional as the Book of Mormon!

ATAR_i said...

What are the reasons for being able to discard sacred garments are roam around in shorts?

Whom decides under what circumstances wearing shorts in public is ok?

Will you now feel free to wear shorts because your prophet has?

I'm just curious how people feel about warren driving expensive flashy cars and wearing shorts - discarding his sacred garments.

Anonymous said...

just a lie that was.

Anonymous said...

The thought I can't shake is the fact that he was caught with Isaac and Naomi. The two people that stood in church and testified that he was the new prophet after Uncle Rulon's death.

What's going on here?

Was someone hypnotized this whole time?

Anyone else notice this?

Austin

onthestreet said...

The Priesthood of God has always had the right to try the people. This will try some, wealth has tried others, and immorality has tried yet others, all of whom are cast off by the Prophet, or cast themselves off, you see?

Joseph Smith walked the streets of Nauvoo with a cigar in his mouth, not lit mind you, but to flush out the critic and the hypocrit. Was the cigar part of our religion? Yes, it is right in the Doctrine and Covenants: "Tabacco for the healing of wounds". So maybe Joseph was suggesting to the people that their mouths had to be healed.

The Prophet of God is the most perfect man on the earth. Weaknesses? Of course, but that is God's business, not ours. Even Christ was weak. Did that make Him no longer Christ?

Anonymous said...

ots,

If he was dressed in shorts and a t-shirt just to try the hearts of men, why was it so important for him to get into his regular clothes for his mugshot. Inside contacts said he BEGGED for them to let him put on his longies.

That is the mentality of the people that will keep them bonded to this man. EVERYTHING is just a test. NO matter what he does or how many failed prophecies he utters, they are just a test to see if you will be faithful to the end.

SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THIS PICTURE.

The only reason I can see it is because i'm looking from the outside in and i've seen it both ways.

Austin

ATAR_i said...

I've seen pictures of the red escalade he was riding in? Is that a lie too?

Naomi was wearing pants - does that suprise you - or is that a lie too?

Was warren lying when he said his name was Findley?

But back to the red escalade - can FLDS now own red cars? Is red OK now? pants? shorts?

Was it all just a lie, a trick a lie - all the rules and regulations? What do they mean if your own leader doesn't even follow them? Rather like a Drug enforcement officer who teaches classes on the evils of drug use, but goes home and relaxes with a joint. (Do as I say, not as I do).

Sounds like your prophet needs to drive himself out of town, and drop himself in the dessert - he didn't even have sleeves to roll up.

Anonymous said...

hey folks from C.C. if you want people to stay out of your city why dont you stay out of thiers?
You take your trips , you conduct your business,buy your groceries and then throw a fit because people enter your town-- go figure.

You talk of equality, but you are hypocrits--you are so unaccepting of others--fix that first- start at home , start with your neighbors -(like C.P. ) then let it grow to all the people you come into contact with. then and only then will you have any room to speak.

Anonymous said...

Oh street it sounds like you realy LOVE warren.He must have cuddled with you when he was done.Brent wasn't so lucky.

Anonymous said...

the long underwear that you are refering to, it not sacrid. it is just that. long underwear. to cover up our bodies. sacrid garments are something different.

How Uncle Warren was dressed it of no concern to me. He is still the Prothet. There is a difference between Functional issues, and Principal issues. If someone can't handle this, they have the problem. Not Uncle Warren.

Anonymous said...

Newspaper article qoutes Sheriff Doran as saying FLDS at YFZ continue building at YFZ after Jeffs arrest. Texas LDS & Sheriff Doran on FLDS

ATAR_i said...

desert

Anonymous said...

I suppose you are right. I did go for years out into your city's. I did come and go freely. when i did i was called names because i was different. and when i built a fence i was also insulted. and when i walked then i walked and no one was stopped from coming into my city that was upholding the law. and so i suppose you are right. i do then so owe you an apolagy. and I love this Warren Jeffs with all my heart and i know he is guilty of no crime; adious

Anonymous said...

and Joseph did say he did get the writings of the book of Mormon from an Angel of God. Now he himself did not claim to get the law. He then did teach the people and there was the law. And would you follow after the things of men, or would you seek the Kingdom of God. The call has gone out to the world. Gather with the Lord of the heaven's. Who will stand for peace and who will be in the war. It is a very simple individual choice. the law of christ is written in the book of mormon and the bible and held up to all the world. God did not with hold from any one. Joseph did his work. the book was distributed. and all men are free to partake of liberty......as it is written, "come and drink of the water's freely with out price." and as Jesus was hung on the cross, there was a beggar that would have offered him drink and was forbidden and all did flee from him. and it was done to fulfil prophacy. For it was written that he would drink of his bitter cup alone and he died so you could have eternal life and who would be sad at that. Here we are offered the greatest gift and the requirements are to love all and do good continually. and what is it that we are lost on? stuff. but read the story about King Benjiman. and there is great joy. and now i know that if you were seeking the kingdom of heaven you would be praying and studying and maybe you do not need a sermon from me, so i will close my remarks and bid you all good by and may you all find peace and joy for-ever. for it is written also that God puts every soul in a place they can be the happiest to there compasity. Since i am going to be a fundamental mormon for a long long time, i am thinking i shall not see you all in the next world. and by the sounds of things you will not miss me so much any how so maybe we will both be some what happy. You with your ways and me with mine; but if by chance our paths do cross there i hope that we can be curtious. and joyful...........

Anonymous said...

du atari

ATAR_i said...

So it's ok for people to wear more functional outfits then, say shorts, or no long underwear?

It's ok to wear colors?

Is it ok for people to cut their hair the way they like?

It's of no concern to you? Have you been wearing long underwear in the sweltering heat for the past couple decades?

Why would you do that unless you were compelled to do it - at least be real and honest. The only reason you are not upset 'because warren was doing it'. You excuse anything he does, no matter how much it flies in the face of what he tells others to do.

fttc said...

Anon 2:31

Could you define the Functional and Principal (did you mean Principle perhaps) issues?

Anonymous said...

The people in CC have been hood-winked for so long that they really don't care if war-boy was caught in shorts or Naomi was wearing a t-shirt or tank top. These are people that walk away from their families, friends, and homes if war-boy tells them too. Do you really think they can't get over the fact that he was wearing shorts?

I hope they come back and charge the Isaac and Naomi with harboring, and hopefully a whole lot of other people if they have the evidence. This is setting a nasty precedence for others who harbor FBI fugitives.

LTG

rumor-has-it said...

They think it is all a story made up by the media!

Lyle Jeffs is probably telling them now, I am in direct communication with Warren Jeffs our prophet and GOD and he tells me ... he is just in another room!

Anonymous said...

I will tell you what i tell every one else that lies to me. I know him better than that. I watched the media crap. there was only one live photo of him. He was in shackles; and i know the media too well to beleive any of there crap. that should be plain enough for you to understand Atari.

and as to funtional. and Principle. Joseph taught men to follow correct principle. He did tell them not to kill any anamials unless they were going to eat it. He then went out and shot an animal. He then did walk away. there stood his men. Who would follow functional or Principle? who would judge by the standards of men and who would be governed by God's laws. there stood his men. and they did eat the animal.

and just so as you may understand; if such a thing is possible; God has set out his law and then he did set out the dillusion. It is written, that it would be so strong upon the earth that no man alone would be able to stand; only with God is such a thing possible. and he did say, i only then do speak so that as for you to understand; all who would believe a lie, will be given a lie. then God is just for he gives to every soul, that which he does seek. and upon every sight is the evidence that he is right in his lie until the day he goes before Christ and he does confess; your laws are just. i did seek corruption and did seek to fool all, and your judgment is just and like wise upon the rightouse man is given all evidence of the Justness and goodness of God until his soul is filled with perfect peace and compasion. Like God in principle. and what is the attributes of God? God is love. God is a God of truth and can not lie. God is just. and if some of what i say does not make sense read it in the book yourself........

and just so as there is no misunderstanding; know this; the man is inacent.

and to answer your question about the underware. i am cooler in the heat with them on and warmer in the winter. and my body is accustomed to them and i would feel like a fish out of water with out them.

Anonymous said...

OTS sometimes makes sense, but not always. Though he uses very strange logic, at least he is on the right side of the issue. I almost didnt post because of him.

I too could see Uncle Warren's normal meek, angelic disposition shine in that hearing. A story from Parley P Pratt comes to mind.

Fact: Warren Jeffs has never said he would not be caught.

Fact: If Warren Jeffs was wearing shorts and T-shirt (which is doubt-able)I definately excuse him because he was in hiding from religious persecution. Laws created to stop our religion.

Fact: It is O.K. for the FLDS to own red cars. It is bright red clothing that is taboo.

Fact: Girls do wear pants quite often, but usually under the dress. Besides, it was a disguise also.

Fact: Warren Jeffs used an assumed name to buy his contact lenses. He had no illegal ID

Fact: Leroy S Johnson was imprisoned in 1953, John Y Barlow was imprisoned in 1944, John Taylor died in hiding from the "law", Brigham Young was put in jail in 186-, Joseph Smith in 1838, and in 1844 when an armed mob killed him and his brother, for which no one was prosecuted. ALL FOR LIVING THEIR RELIGION.

It is amazing in this society today, when harlotry, adultery, sodomy, and abortion, are all considered rights to the people. But if someone engages in performing a marriage for Religious reasons it becomes a crime so bad you can attain to the FBI top ten most wanted criminals.

Fact: This "underage" rule is only applied to polygamy, it is far more rampant among monogomists, yet ignored (and there is rarely a marriage.) Admit it, you only want the girls to wait until 18 because you hope they might "get smart" and leave. 11 out of the 12 of my married sisters were over 18. And They felt it a burden to wait!

Fact: There is has never been, or ever will be fear of Warren Jeffs forcing women or men to be FLDS, no one will leave just because he was put in jail.

I am very grateful that Uncle Warren is somewhat safe. Please Keep up the heavy armed guards, there are men who have threatened his life.

If it were possible, I would gladly take Warren Jeffs place behind bars. Gladly!

CTR

Anonymous said...

Hey Rumor-has-it. Will they realize it another room in the BIG HOUSE?

Anonymous said...

Mormons disgust me. Yeah, Jesus came back two centuries ago, in South America. Right.

I'll just sip my beer, drag my cigarette and swear as I please.

Have a good stay in hell, freaks.

barlow said...

looks like is over... and done with..10 to 20 years in the big house.

Anonymous said...

I left over a year ago, and yet I had no idea Warren was so low. It still shocks me to see him using religion as a front to live a riotous life off the blood, sweat, and tears of his faithful. Put on his religious cap and get his security up while he does more fundraising in the name of religion, break a few families, marry a few underage girls, then go back to shorts and t-shirts as someone else while he lives high on the hog; this while some men have been slaves for years without seeing their family.

I had no clue he was so low.

Anonymous said...

Mormons disgust me. Yeah, Jesus came back two centuries ago, in South America. Right.

I'll just sip my beer, drag my cigarette and swear as I please.

Have a good stay in hell, freaks.

9/03/2006 6:18 AM


People of your attitude disgust me. I'm not a Mormon, but it's just as reasonable to believe Jesus came to America as it is to believe a guy named Noah took two of every animal on earth, placed them on a boat, and sailed around for 40 days.

And this "Have a good stay in hell" talk is pretty illogical. Doesn't seem like I'd want to hang out with your god anyway.

ATAR_i said...

Couldn't warren have hidden out FUNCTIONALLY in long pants. Couldn't he have hidden out FUNCTIONALLY in long sleeves?

It is not necessary to present any form of identification when PAYING CASH for contact lenses or glasses.

You could present yourself to the physician using an alias, but it is not necessary to show any form of identification.

Couldn't Naomi just as easily have worn a dress - women DO wear dresses. (She would have had to find something in the 21st century if she wanted to blend) - but women do it all the time.

I think all the NON FLDS men in jail for shagging underage girls would disagree with you - it's not religious - it's the law.

12:04 - your post was hard to understand, but it has nothing to do with my ability to read, my understanding of religious theology, it has to do with the rather manic way you put random sentences together as if they belonged that way.

I've no doubt you can make sense, you're an intelligent gal, but it seems your rather stressed and the post was trying to say too much too quickly.

If you wanted to just focus on one area, and start over I think it would be helpful for everyone to understand your perspective better.

Anonymous said...

Atari It is obvious that you have no real desire for understanding

Warren and Naomi wanted to change into their "normal" clothes while at the police station. Why? So no other FLDS could see them that way? It is like you getting arrested at the pool.

Maybe you didn’t notice but his picture was posted everywhere, he couldn’t go to any Optometrist.

I just wonder what will happen if they find him innocent. Will the facts, or will public outcry decide his fate? What new charges will they file? What new law will they create? Thou shalt not be FLDS in the USA? (like they did in MO in 1830's and the Utah Territory in 1880's)

CTR

onthestreet said...

TAR (9/03/2006 6:59 PM):

The issue was not to "HIDE OUT", but rather to get taken into the courts, that God may have a mortal witness come before Him and report on a rebellious nation. Government is NOT above the law, and so they will shift their guilt on him, saying the same about him, that there may be an atonement to cleanse this land for a Millenial Reign.

Yes, the nations are angry with him, and with God Himself, legislating against Him and His laws, against prayer, and against His Ten Commandments, and against everything that pertains to the religion of heaven. The so-called abuses are their own, shifted onto one man to atone. (Rev. 11):

18. And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

fttc said...

Atar

Keep bringing this up. I too would like to hear the rationalization for warren's/Naomi's choice of attire. I think it was kind of lame to say it was just a trial to the people though I do think it should have been. I have seen the lavish lifestyle thrust onto our former leaders. U. Roy fought it. U. Rulon had a lot to say against it though he gave in and accepted most of the favors from the people. Warren thrives on it and encourages it. The fact that the vehicle was registered to an FLDS business manager/owner says to me that it was probably donated with the idea that nothing is good enough for the 'prophet'. warren is a computer geek and so the electronics devices are no surprise. These things can be rationalized away perhaps as something that is superfluous as regards warren's character. The attire cannot. As you stated it was not necessary for him and Naomi to be out of code according to warren's own teachings. This was a choice he made. He was not forced into it by circumstances.

Wake up people! The signs are all around you. I was told that one of the faithful was viewing the online footage of the news and said it was full of lies about the FLDS. The media often gets things wrong. I have not seen two stories yet that agree about the amount of cash, cell phones and such that were in the vehicle. The number of warren's wives has ranged anywhere from 25-140. This is information that should perhaps not be published because of the lack of evidence. (I have yet to see a copy of the official police report on the contents of the vehicle.) Often the media cannot get a balanced story because the FLDS will not communicate with them, while the anti-FLDS are more than happy to oblige. All of this does not discount the statement of the officer that initially stopped Isaac and warren. For the poster that stated it is a lie, he is quoted as stating how warren and Naomi were dressed.

My point is that there are facts in the media accounts along with a lot of error. Do not discount all that is reported because there are some misconstrued reports. Think about the difference between what warren is doing and what he is saying.

ATAR_i said...

CTR - you are wrong - I do desire to understand.

You state he was hiding out, he couldn't show his face. HE HAD TO SHOW HIS FACE in order for a doctor to examine his eyes. IT DIDN'T MATTER ONE WHIT what his license said - they would never even look at it because he was paying cash.

Your rationalizations don't make sense. Who cares about a fake id in his wallet when his face is sitting in the optometrists chair. So why did he even make himself a fake ID? People who buy fake ID's are hiding from the law (like drug dealers, criminals etc).

Secondly, MEN WEAR LONG PANTS ALL THE TIME, so explain to me how wearing shorts is hiding out?

MEN WEAR LONG SHIRTS ALL THE TIME, so explain to me how a short sleeve shirt is hiding out?

WOMEN WEAR DRESSES ALL THE TIME, so explain to me how wearing pants is hiding out.

He wasn't wearing a wig in the car - wouldn't that conceal his identity more than shorts? He had a wig (he wasn't wearing it), he had long pants/long shirt (he wasn't wearing them).

BOTTOM LINE - they wore those clothes to be comfortable - NOT to hide out.

And, who was looking for Naomi? Who the heck IS Naomi (I just heard her name for the first time the other day) - so why did she need to wear pants again???

So explain to me again how he was hiding? Please help me understand - because he seems like he was chilling out in his brand new car, eating fast food and wearing shorts. Forget the wig to hide his identity, forget the pants, underwear and long sleeves to be modest, he was gettin comfy.

onthestreet said...

JEFFS is YEPPS or JEPPS

(In Hebrew, "Y" = "J" and "P" = "F").

Most pilots use the "JEPPS-on" Charts to plot their course through the air. The Prophet is the JEPPS of JEFFS for aerial guidance through the air, to the heavens.

President Jeffs is the Epicenter (or Yepps-center) for this generation. If they trash their chart, they lose their course. Then Chaos!

Anonymous said...

OTS,
Never heard so much horse dung in my life! Most pilots use Garmin GPS systems not Jeppson. Only way Warren can get off the ground is in chains when the federal Marshals take him to prison.

onthestreet said...

fttc said (9/03/2006 8:25 PM): Atar

Keep bringing this up. I too would like to hear the rationalization for warren's/Naomi's choice of attire. I think it was kind of lame to say it was just a trial to the people though I do think it should have been.

STREET’s Reply: HIS ATTIRE: Both a trial and an ordinance. Going into the Temple of God requires long attire, and going to the slaughter is the opposite, shortened attire. That is the attire for the tired in the Lord, which is quite again the opposite of comfort, Christ Himself donning the shorts for His crucifiction. Pretty simple, and you ALL have to agree, a veritable TRIAL for the wicked, for they just can’t get over that, nor leave it alone. It bugs them to no end. A TRIAL.

Anonymous said...

Hey folks. There is a Bible verse that state's there is nothing new under the sun.

Warren got caught.

Warren is a slave master.

Think about it.

onthestreet said...

Hey fokes (I think I spelled that right): The Prophet "caught", or a "slave master"?

Hey, Nonny just hit the nail on the head. He has driven his critics like slaves, to their wits end. Surely, that is nothing new to the wicked, but makes them very old and decayed. And yet, that is something new to the righteous, for the Prophet forever heals and renews the soul of the righteous.

Anonymous said...

fttc- the FLDS do not communicate because they are not believed. It is rather pointless. The anti-FLDS are the REASON the FLDS are in the news.

atari-
You DO NOT have a desire to understand. Your post proves that. If you did you WOULD, becuase it is simple.

You can get contact lenses without personally getting an exam in very few places. I bet the receipt was from one of them. His picture has been in the news for a long time. Warren did not have a fake ID (Though I wouldnt blame him if he did)

Its a little easier to take off a wig than to change your clothes. The wigs may have been for Naomi, because the FLDS hairstyles are hard to hide, even with pants on. ALL men who have women around them who wear dresses and decent hairdo's are suspect.

I would bet he had been outside the vehicle in the Las Vegas area. Who would be looking for a devoutly FLDS man in shorts and t-shirt? If he was so comfy why did he want to change at the police station? I cannot get comfy in public without clothes on, and neither could he. Just look at how increadibly pale his arms were at the hearing. I bet they never saw the sun.


ots- you are a nut (in a good way)

CTR

Anonymous said...

To those wondering how the FLDS will rationalize Warren’s dress, vehicles etc. at the time of his arrest:

To rationalize is easy. Just take the word and break it apart... rational lies.

I think one of the first quoted items of scripture to rationalize Warren's hypocrisy will be from Joseph Smith:

"God said, 'Thou shalt not kill:' at another time He said, 'Thou shalt utterly destroy.' This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted---by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.” (TPJS p.256)

Lets look at this in a slightly different light, and that is ends and means. Does the end (staying hidden from the law) justify the means (shorts & t-shirt). I thought the long underwear and clothes to the neck, wrists and ankles were for protection from the “gentile” world and its influences. If we dressed like them, it would show our desire for their “immoral” way of life. If the ends (not getting caught) was right before the Lord, would you then not want his protection? Rember, the police officer is part of the "gentile" world.

OK, so Warren must have had a revelation that said it is OK for himself and those with him to dress the same as “the gentile world” to avoid capture. Lets think about this for a moment; he is breaking the FLDS dress code to fit into the gentile world. He is trying to fit in to avoid being captured for breaking the laws of the land. I really think the question we should really be asking is “why was he trying so hard not to be found?” Perhaps I’m missing something when in the Doctrine & Covenants I read this: “Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.” (D&C sec58 v21)

If it is for a righteous reason, how can a good end be accomplished with an evil ( worldly dress) means? Is it because the world is so evil and wicked (remember he joined with this “evil” world at least in dress) that they seek him only to persecute and destroy him? That is what most of the FLDS faithful think. Was he trying not to get caught because he only answers to God and not the laws of the land (remember, the lawmakers have such a hate for him that they make laws just to make his life miserable)? If so, then why didn’t the Lord simply “blind” the eyes of those looking for him while he was still dressed as he teaches the faithful to dress and wearing the long garments which we have been taught are for our protection?

I guess I just don’t get it... He is hiding because he doesn’t want to answer to the laws of the land which he broke. That goes against the above quote from the Doctrine & Covenants. Then to help himself hide he breaks the dress code of the FLDS. Noh he has broken the laws of the land and of the church. Now, both the ends and the means aren’t adding up to a righteous cause. And to those who say the laws were made just to persecute the prophet and his people, we could easily avoid the persecution of the law by waiting until the girls are over the age of 18. No one yet has shown me where it is in Holy Writ that those over 18 are any less pure than those under the age of 18. If the principle (placement & plural marriage) is true, is it not just as true with brides 18 and older than those who are younger than 18?

Now, as far as vehicles are concerned, it is nice to see the money I and my business contributed to the church as well as that of many other FLDS members has been carefully spent and not squandered on excess luxuries. The one that really gets me though is the two seater sports car. Warren once told me that a man who would own and drive such a car is the kind of man who would want to rape the daughters of Zion. I do hope the report of such a car are false, because that does not sit well with what he (Warren Jeffs) said.

To close, those of you who do not know me, I’m an FLDS member and still “in”. However, there are so many questions that it is impossible to “put them all on the shelf". I also apologize for my poor (and long winded) writing skills. Although I was lucky enough to get some higher education, writing is not one of my strong points.

IITMOC

onthestreet said...

NONNY Said (9/03/2006 10:13 PM): OTS,
Never heard so much horse dung in my life! Most pilots use Garmin GPS systems not Jeppson. Only way Warren can get off the ground is in chains when the federal Marshals take him to prison.

STREET’s Reply: Two pilots were talking, and their conversation was on this very topic:
Jeppson (Chieftain Pilot): Hi are there any set dates when rar 1.04 will come out? I havent checked it out but I was wondering if I’m in a democracy and build lots of philosofer school, will those become obsolete when I change government.

Doc Tsiolkovski
Not obsolete - they'll simply disappear once you switch Govs. But they'll wait for you, if you revert to Democracy.

Anonymous said...

CTR Wrote

Fact: There is has never been, or ever will be fear of Warren Jeffs forcing women or men to be FLDS

Then CTR, wait until the women are 18 that are BORN FLDS. This underage nonsense is essentially forcing women to be FLDS.

Anonymous said...

Warren Jeffs maybe a slave master, he maybe the worst kind of criminal, which he is IMO, BUT there is no guarantee that he won't hire the best criminal defense attorneys available.

Example attorney Dick DeGuerin who got a jury to vote not guilty in a case where a wealthy man (Robert Durst) confessed publicly to murder, yet he walked out a free man. In the OJ Simpson trial it was a not guilty verdict. All the lawyers have to do is create reasonable doubt.

So if Warren Jeffs wants to fight charges, his followers can easily raise the money to buy the best lawyers available. Which means Warren Jeffs could walk out of the courthouse with a not guilty verdict!

Here's a copy of the arrest warrent for Warren Jeffs: Arrest Warrent for Warren

muggsey said...

There are none so blind as those who will not see, none so deaf as those who listen but do not hear.

A Broadway play was made into a move featuring Dolly Partin as "madam" of "The Greatest Little Whorehouse in Texas." One of the cast of characters was the governor of the state. He was nominated for best supporting actor by the Screen Guild. I don't appreciate most of Hollywood's offerings but I thought the part of the governor is a likness of ots. The song that the character sang and performed was "Take a little side-step", and it perfectly demonstrated the ability of ots to circumvent any truth and spiritualize or take it out of context. Ots is in a permanent state of side-stepping around any issue.

Anonymous said...

This message is for the person who posted "IITMOC" at the end of his comment.
Be carful what you say, remember that the eye's of your maker are upon you. I think it is silly for those that think they are " still in". For they seem to think that they are the chosen ones. Everyone of us WILL go through some kind of TEST. Being "still in" is a falst feeling. Your time just has not come yet.

ATAR_i said...

IITMOC

The garments are worn to protect the faithful from the immoral - so in Las Vegas that would have been REALLY important if he were outside his car.

CTR

Wearing long pants would not make him stick out in Las Vegas - the shorts were for comfort they disguise nothing.

You cannot pick up contact lenses without a prescription. In order to get a prescription you need to see an opthamologist. A prescription is good for one year (for contact lenses, two years for glasses).

SO YES, within the last year he DEFINATELY has had to see an opthamologist - or he FORGED the prescription.

So, if it's as you say

1. he's forged a prescription
2. because he's running from the law
3. because there's a warrent for him
4. because he is accused of abuse
5. and performing underage marriage
6. so he hid from the law by
7. buying new cars, like porsches
8. wearing shorts and short sleeves
9. eating fast food
10. having one of his wives wear pants
11. and having her wear a wig

Did he have to behave in other heathen ways in order to hide from the law?

Did he need to gamble in Vegas so he would fit in? Did he visit a sex shop - they would never look for him there!

How far does he get to go, violating the very principles and laws he is in charge of teaching and upholding so that he can run from the law?

“Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.” (D&C sec58 v21)

OTS

Molestation = guilt
Shorts = immoral

Can you quote the scripture that stated Jesus wore shorts to the cross. I think he was PUT in a loin cloth - but he didn't change his clothes in Gethsemane AND he knew they were coming.

warren didn't know he was going to get 'outed' in shorts. My guess is, he would have changed if he was planning on getting captured.

Clearly - the prophet didn't want any photos taken of him wearing his immoral attire - so he changed.

AREN'T THE LONG CLOTHES FOR PROTECTION - and didn't he need that now more than ever. IITMOC you rock!

The little blue jumpsuit they have him in now is more moral than the clothes HE CHOSE to wear! I think warren is thinking like a criminal - not a faithful.

Now about that pimped out Red Escalade. Is there anyone else in FLDS that owns anything like that? Any of the faithful 10,000 you know that own a red car AT ALL?

From my own experience, this was the sort of experience that really bugged me. I watched a man compelled to confess his immoral thoughts in the front of the church, and be humiliated even though he had never taken an action.

Then I came to find out that one of the leaders who sat at the front, was committing sins (not just thoughts) and had been 'counseled' privately, and without any release of responsibility of leadership.

When the people who are in leadership, have less integrity, honesty and righteousness than those who follow their leadership - it's time for a change.

I've no doubt that there are honest individuals, with integrity who can restore your community. You must believe that is so, or you could not stay.

ATAR_i said...

Are there righteous men in FLDS who are willing to step in and lead?

Anonymous said...

To anon 9/04/2006 10:43 AM

Perhaps I came across wrong. I'm not trying to say I'm any better than anyone else, I just call it as I see it. I'm still "in" because I don't want to disrupt my family, I stated that I was still “in” so others could somewhat see where I was coming from (the inside, not the outside). Believe me, I have had and will continue to have many "tests" and am completely aware of the "eyes of my Maker" that are upon me. I am not perfect, nor do I claim to be, but I do try to do a little better each day than I did the day before.

Atar_i:

There has been more said against red apparel than red vehicles, although red vehicles have also been frowned upon, I don’t remember an edict over the pulpit against them. As far as any other FLDS members having "pimped" out rides like that, yes, some of the "elite" do, although I sometimes wonder if they could afford them if it were not for the underage workers they employ and or many unmarried sons that are required to "turn in" all their money to their father. It is wrong to see a man driving one of these expensive vehicles while his family goes without or is on welfare just trying to survive.

And for those who get so wrapped up on how we dress, lets think about this for a moment... a vehicle is just as much a statement about a person and what is inside their heart as the clothes they wear. Is a man really being humble when he is wearing his long pants and clean pressed pastel colored shirt, but is driving a 50k plus “pimped out” suv or pickup that looks just like a vehicle out of the latest MTV video released by our black rapper friends (did we forget that it was a “black” man who taught the modern rock bands how to perform, and if we listen to their music, we are partaking of the same spirit as them. Is it any different when we are imitating the vehicles that the rock and rap stars drive? Are we not being like they are, and is that not the “sure road to hell” and partaking of the “seed of Cain)? Is it OK to imitate their vehicles, but not ok to imitate or listen to their music?

There is a lot of money spent on new vehiles and “pimping” them out here in the FLDS, and it is quit possibly because it is the only form of self expression the men have.

IITMOC

fttc said...

CTR

Your comment about the pale arms would to me be more reason not to be wearing short sleeves as a disguise.

Atar

The men that were members that could possibly put the FLDS back on a course that would not destroy them have been cast out. The members would have to reject at least a part of warrenism to get some one to lead that would not continue them on the course they are currently taking. If they were to accept such a leader he would have to wean them off the rest of warren's teachings. Wish it would happen. Most likely won't.

Anonymous said...

IITMOC
Thank you for your honest posts.

There are other faithful FLDS followers dressing like gentiles, across the great plains.

I understand the long underwear was adopted almost 10 years ago. It was not normal wear for the FLDS.

But you know IITMOC God looks at the heart, not the clothes.

As for the eye prescription, the business name will be on the form.

Anonymous said...

Fttc said
"Think about the difference between what warren is doing and what he is saying."

Great advice Fttc.

Anonymous said...

CTR,

You seem to be afraid to deal with the real issue here.

Just a note though; yes, his arms were pale, but so were his face and hands.

TBM said...

Digital Dig, I'm coming rather late to this thread. But as someone who has no sympathy for polygamy, I want to thank you for one of the most sensitive, considered, intelligent posts on this board yet.

I can't help but feel that with a few more posts from people like you, and few less bone-heads, we might all achieve a far better, more peaceful, more tolerant, more Christlike understanding.

onthestreet said...

(Matt. 10:34): Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

ATAR_i said...

Yes, Dig - it sure was.

fttc said...

CTR

It is warren that has put the FLDS in the media spotlight. Flora and her ilk have been doing their thing for years and aside from an occasional blurb on the local news it has gone no further. warren has taken the FLDS to a new level of awareness. He has put you on the national news front. There is no quicker way to incite the curiosity of the media than to tell them to go away and leave you alone, lock them out of your town and shout obscenities at them. If warren had allowed Dan Barlow to continue as a spokesperson instead of spitting in their eye it would have gone a long way toward avoiding publicity. If warren had answered to the law requests he would not have been involved with the FBI and become the high profile fugitive he is now. In short warren has done for the FLDS what Flora and her ilk only dreamed of doing.

onthestreet said...

fttc (9/04/2006 7:38 PM):

That is correct, the FBI and federal government had to get involved in order to establish their position and fate, that God may be just in judging the nation as a whole.

This land must be swept clean, and in order to do so, God must be just, with a mortal witness coming before Him.

Anonymous said...

at least you are smart enough to speak truthfully about Flora and her ilk.......

Anonymous said...

"...In short warren has done for the FLDS what Flora and her ilk only dreamed of doing."

...told you so
wj is the best thing to ever happen to the anti-plig movement
and now, it's all over
all eye's are upon this little town and their wicked ways
and not a soul shall rest until justice prevails

well not a least until britney spears has her second baby
then ... wj will be yesterday's news
wj might be god's solely appointed prophet amongst the billions
chosen to lead his people out of the perils of global annihilation
...but ah, next to britney spears
strictly small potato's

keep sweet eldorado
stg

Anonymous said...

You all are a bunch of ilk

Anonymous said...

say OTS, aren't you going to give is the esoteric significance of the key warren held to his Porshe
(pronounced poor-sha, don't forget the e)
Anyone know what color this fiery chariot was?

fttc said...

Where does the story about the Porsche come from? Does someone have a copy of the police report? I have not seen this mentioned in any of the news articles I have read.

Anonymous said...

I've been reading this blog for some time now, never posting. I am neither FLDS or Mormon. I live on the East Coast and am a practicing Christian. I disagree terribly with many FLDS and Mormon beliefs. This is my right under the Constiution as well as my right under the Lord. I knew little about FLDS and had honestly felt that polygamy should be of very little concern to the American public. It's a choice between consenting adults... leave these people alone to live their lives!

All of this is what I felt, until I found out about young girls (children) being married to adult men. The emotional havoc wreaked on these young girls is a travesty. They are being robbed of their childhood as well as their devloping into womanhood. A girl at 13, 14, 15 years old is not able to make a sound decision about if she is ready to be married, to consumate that marriage, or to bear a child. This girl is only a child herself, just beginning to come into her own, to know herself, her boundries, her fears, her desires, and all of this is being pulled out from under her. I am aghast that any one person out there is defending a decision for these girls to be made "wives." There is a great deal of things that I look past and refuse to involve myself in, because life choices really are not my business. But, these young girls are virtually being intimidated into a life that they are not sure if they want to have, and a life that they deserve to make decisions for their own lives.

Clearly these young girls need a voice (other than that of elder leaders). They need some one to protect them and to fight for them. This is such a disgrace that this is happening at such rapid pace in today's society. Pedophilia running wild and being hidden by bible verse and by excuses and hidden behind religion. Shameful.

OAS

muggsey said...

ots

you are mistaken. Jeffs position is the result of ongoing activity of two states and the Federal Goverment, acting in a manner in which all governments are designed to operate. They seek answers to un-answered questions and justice served in behalf of the victims of criminals outside the law of the land.

Anonymous said...

I know that this is a late response to the person who posted, that if we do not want them in "our" city, don't come in ours. I have to agree with him. I have never feld ill towards those who have come, rather I wondered why they would want to come. There is not much to see here.

I felt very pour in my feelings when I read the article about (Dig Dan's/Dan Steed) and the way he acted. I thought, goodness sakes, now when I go into any restaurant I may be treated the same way. And I had nothing to do with him.

I just hope that if I said anything that offended anyone, I appolagize.

My eyes have been opened a lot since the recent happeneings. There was some things I was taught that was not right, (as far as non-flds people were concerned.) I just want to be treated as a good citizen, and treat others the same way.

Anonymous said...

now as to the poster about Britney Spears; i have to agree with you completely. news is just a sensational thing and the next thing upon the tube is what consumes you. I am glad for this. the media will go home. the name calling will be lost with Britneys songs and our enamies will be poor again...........and we hear the desert singing, carry on, carry on, carry on. Hills and vales and Mountians singing, carry on, carry on, carry on..........

Anonymous said...

and frankly we was all taught to love each other and leave judgment to God. He did not give us the right to judge any one. I am glad that we can all learn. I too am learning. But you do have to admit, they did say they had the right to refuse service to any one, and that at big Dan's could not have been a thing against the gentiles, because there were non-fundamental Mormons in the restraunt. Rather i think it was a particular personal thing with the man who wanted to enter. and every one has a right to protect there place.......

Anonymous said...

If you have ever been to Big Dans you will know that he serves black, gentiles, jews, appostates, policeman, hispanic, european...etc... He just doesnt want his customers to have to put up with the media BS. Who really wants to be filmed going in and out of the stores? Do you blame him? I have been there when all walks of life have come in and there was never a problem unless they had a camera crew with them.

muggsey said...

Does Big Dan engage in racial and ethnic profiling before he allows anyone to enter his place? Without pulling down their pants and checking, how can you tell a Jew from a Gentile? How can you tell the difference between a European and a Swiss? Who is qualified to call anyone an apostate? Do policemen always wear uniforms? "Hispanic" really relates to a Spaniard, an individual from the European Nation of Spain. Some people who are of an ancestory that have curly hair and broad noses. Is an Australian Aboriginal individual considered to be a Black African?

Why are people from the News Media filming activity in your town? Don't you suppose that there are curious individuals who have been following the story of your unusual life style who want to know more about you and your lifestyle? During and after the westward migration within the United States many people of European ancestry intermarried with American aboriginal people. Do you know just what aboriginal means? How can you tell the difference between a Czech and a Slovak, a German and a Dane, a Swede and a Norweigian, an Englishman and a Scot?

We Americans hail from every Continent and nation on earth. We are Oriental, African, Indo-European, Central European, Russian, Slavic, Gaelic, Germanic, Native American who speak a dirivative of Spanish, English and Portugese.

An individual of Germanic blood may practice Hinduism, Judiasm, Christianity, Mormonism, Shintoism. How can you tell a persons etnic and faith condition by visual judgement alone? what differentiates between one in favor with God and an apostate?

WHO GAVE YOU THE RIGHT TO BE JUDGE?

I'm sure I made some spelling errors in this post. I was interested in content, not perfection.

Janet Johanson said...

Let's forget about Warren and Winston and Dan and whoever else is jockeying for power. How about we focus on individually taking a step to bring healing to each other. Extend a hand to someone you haven't looked in the face for a long time, smile at your neighbor, laugh at a stupid joke someone tells in the store, invite your long separated brother or sister to a picnic up in the canyon. Bring back some of those beautiful songs we used to sing. My heart still sings "Give me a home in the heart of the mountains.. Out in the vales of the glorious west... Though I may wander through life as a pilgrim...Joyfully coming home to my rest." Let's make this community a home once again. Putting down the weapons of war can be done by each of us. Let's just do it!

fttc said...

Great advice Janet! Though I am only a far extended member of the community (I don't live there) maybe a visit should be in my plans. I would love to see your sentiments enacted into reality. Darling asked who was going to help beautify the park last week. Community projects like that would certainly help with the healing.

Anonymous said...

Shut up Muggsey. I'm very tolerant of most humans and I'm neither LDS or FLDS, but I can't stand to read your posts.

ATAR_i said...

I agree - how about we don't judge - we provide information - and the facts just ARE what they ARE.

If you have names of girls who were underage when they were married and transported across state or country borders please send me the name/age/border

atar_i@hotmail.com

Anonymous said...

OAS, you wrote what I have been thinking for days. I, too, am neither FLDS nor a Morman but a non-denominational Christian. Even though it is against my personal belief to practice polygamy, I firmly believe in freedom. This issue is not about polygamy. It is about control and no access for these girls to true choice - with no ramification of losing salvation or of losing the ability to associate with family for disagreeing with leadership. The inability of these girls to lead the life of their own choosing (marrying later in life, having access to higher education, etc.) in the free country we live in is inexcusable. I am grateful ATAR_I is willing to accept names, ages, etc. and hope you are able to help all who are ready to come forward. I am praying daily and ask for those of you who believe in prayer also to keep these girls in your prayers, especially the one/ones who have come forward against WJ.

onthestreet said...

NONNY (9/06/2006 12:10 AM):

There has been alot of talk just along those lines, but what such talk demands is the dismantling of the very basis and fabric of society, which is to sire and “raise up a child as they should go, and when they are old they shall not depart from it" (Prov. 22:6).

SPARE THE ROD, SPOIL THE CHILD:
Ephesians 6:1-3 CHILDREN, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and thy mother, which is the first commandment with promise; that it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth.

Proverb 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Proverb 22:15 Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.

Proverb 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.

Proverb 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.

Proverb 29:15 Thy rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.


Therefore, if you don't do that, or are slack in that, in any way, then you have what you see today in the serious and fatal decay of societies. The FBI has recently reported that violent crime is higher now than it has ever been that past 15-years. Families nationwide are descemated, cities are becoming extinct, and society itself.

However, the rulers of the world today are now enthralled in setting up a one-world government, and to do that they have to dismantle all other governments and family order itself, and create disasters, and then step in to manage them as the “powers that be”. If they can create and manage disasters throughout the world, then they have established a one-world government.

SEE “Chaos Theory and Disaster Response Management”:
Book results for new world order: create and manage disasters
What Disaster Response Management Can Learn From Chaos Theory
Alternative Risk Transfer - by Bodo Herold

onthestreet said...

By the way, Prov. 22:15, and 23:13 just quoted in my previous post, specifically identify "The Rod" as "correction", which does not usually require an actual
"spanking", and proper spankings do not equate to murder, or even child abuse. It is child abuse if you DON'T correct the child, allowing him or her to become ignorant and abuse themselves. Even our military branches rebuke, correct, chastise, even knock around its trainees. Are they guilty of assault?

This, of course, is in reference to all those who grumble about the FLDS correcting and helping the children to choose the right, and marriage is certainly right, as is also childbirth. They are the very basis of all society.

What is wrong is raping a child, or lusting after a woman or wife for any reason. A man can sire a child without raping its mother. Whosoever looketh upon a woman, to lust after her, hath committed adultery", saith the Lord. However, our governments are all for RAPE. Adultery is seldom prosecuted anymore.

ATAR_i said...

Who are you OTS - someone take over your identity today.

Remember - you don't believe in sex between married couples - all children are conceived by 'immaculate conception'.

So, it's the alter ego today - the second poster who has some of the same opinions - i.e. don't lust after your wife, but not all of them clearly.

How did we get to spanking when talking of abuse - no one was talking about spanking.

We're talking about dropping kids in the desert or another city to fend for themselves (the lost boys).

We're talking about allowing/forcing your young girls to be wed to older men.

Those types of abuses

Anonymous said...

Anonymous (12:10),
Beautifully said. I couldn't agree with you more. I would love to do something to help these girls see that they have choices in their own life.

The innocence of youth is one of life's most beautiful experiences. At 13, 14, 15, these girls should only be concerned with family, grades, and getting a first kiss. How dare someone place the responsibility of a child upon them. These girls deserve a better existance than to be "baby factories."

Onthestreet - "Spare the rod, spoil the child????" I agree with you on this point. Children need discipline, not physically discipline, to be able to understand boundries and limits. Saying "no" to your child is to really loving your child. I do not however understand how this relates to the subject at hand. I too can spout out bible verse to confuse people and to "prove" my faith in the Lord. But, your argument is weak and riddled with holes.

1.“raise up a child as they should go, and when they are old they shall not depart from it" (Prov. 22:6). Exactly as this verse says "WHEN THEY ARE OLD," these girls in question are mere children... on top of this, they are being threatened and intimidated into their actions. Why not allow them the choice to decide if they want to marry (and at what age), if they want to continue on as FLDS, if they want to go to college, if the want to marry outside of FLDS?

2. I agree with the decline of morality in society, the decay of family values, etc. I also feel that the value of a child (and eventually an adult child) has a great deal to do with the values instilled in them by parents from childhood. This does not mean that I feel parents should force their values and thoughts down their children's throats! You do the best job you can as a parent and hope and pray that your children learned from you and that they will make the right choices in their lives. I don't believe that beating them into submission (or intimidating them into making the decision that the parent wants them to make)has the same sort of effect as allowing them to make their own choices. Perhaps marriage and childbirth isn't right for every girl. It's a blessing given by God... not a law for you to impose.
3. Raping a child... oh boy... where do I begin? Sexual intercourse with a minor (consenting or not) is rape. I'm sure that you know this already. You are entering into an adult relationship with someone who is not yet an adult, not yet capable of having adult feelings, emotions, and thoughts. Just because a girl is physically becoming a woman, does not mean that she is emotionally ready to enter into a marriage, sexual relationship, and become a mother. Again, this is pediophilia covered up by religion and bible verse as an excuse.

OAS

muggsey said...

9/5 10:34

I defend your right to have an opinion. I also defend my right to the same. I will continue to post as I feel led, whether or not I am considered as being popular has never been an issue with me. In other words, I'll post what I want, when I want, like it or not, so chill out.

Anonymous said...

OAS-
I have heard stories of girls as young as 13 getting married, but that hasn’t happened since (a long time ago). The youngest girl I know of getting married in my lifetime is 15, and that was rare. Many girls were "forced" to wait until they were 18 or older. In fact THE MAJORITY of girls have waited until at least 18.
I grew up FLDS, and I noticed that the girls who married young were amazingly sweet and mature, and every girl I knew wanted to get married long before they were married, even Candi and Ruth. I saw them both when they were happily married. It was a desire for divorce (and pressure from Flora, Pennie and other ilk) that fueled their claim of being forced. That is a claim "after the fact". (I thought it was a wonderfully good thing to do at the time, but now that I left, I must have been forced) They chose just like my sisters did, my mothers did, and everyone else did. No one is forced.

CTR

ATAR_i said...

Yes mugs, keep posting - this is blog is here for expression.

onthestreet said...

TAR, MUGS...(9/06/2006 11:21 AM):

Does your right to "expression" include flatulance?

Tongue in cheek: Just a question.

onthestreet said...

OAS
9/06/2006 9:28 AM

So OAS, where MILLIONS of CHILDREN are MARRIED in America, MILLIONS under the age of 18, sometimes by parental conscent as the law requires, and ALWAYS by parental conscent within the FLDS Church, you are saying that ALL those children in lawful marriages are RAPED.

Yah, that is about how wreckless the law is being applied to the Prophet today.

onthestreet said...

THIS POST WAS IN REPLY TO MUKKY. Admin just stuck it out of context, perhaps to make it look bad, as if I was insulting a lady like Ruth.

MUK Said this (9/01/2006 3:36 PM):

You don't have do follow your leader, just follow the Lord. Incidently, the Lord never left a message for humanity in the Book Of Mormon. It's a fabrication from start to finish, written by a fraud, soothsayer, adulterer, and lier. Your rebuttal to my posts reminds me of a mad dog snapping and growling at anything that comes into it's path. Go, take a tranquilizer, and a cold shower, calm down and review my post. It is based upon Biblical Scripture, not some hoax passed off as a nineteenth revelation to a jerk.

This post is offered to you so that you can better understand how those outside your commune think. Your lives and thoughts have been so controlled from the time of your birth that you couldn't recognize truth if it bit your posterior.


This was my reply (9/01/2006 5:20 PM):
onthestreet said...
AND SO, THUS SAITH THE JERK OF MODERNITY, what them pilots call an LZ (Landing Zone), just looking for a place to land from off his high horse.

onthestreet said...

NONNY said (9/05/2006 9:13 AM):
say OTS, aren't you going to give is the esoteric significance of the key warren held to his Porshe
(pronounced poor-sha, don't forget the e)
Anyone know what color this fiery chariot was?


STREET’s Reply: The Prophet was carrying a SET of seven keys (or ten in another report) when he was arrested. First, notice how “arrest” includes rest. “All things work together for good for them who love the Lord” (Romans 8):

28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose.

29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31. What shall we then say to these things? If God [be] for us, who [can be] against us?

32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? [It is] God that justifieth.


These Keys are very costly, priceless. Judus complained when she (representing the bride, the Church), poured out SUCH COSTLY ointment on the Saviour’s feet. The Prophet is a Savior for this generation, as our Lord says of all those whom ye shall know by their fruits. He certainly DOES show forth the fruits on seven planes, seven keys to access the heavens: The physical plane is the fruit of the Loin. Who has more? The astral plane is the fruit of the purified seed (or morality, making one truly the blood of Israel, the whole world coming to see and know that he has required all men to “Leave those girls alone”, or face excommunication). There are five other planes, but NOT HERE. These first two planes pertain to faith and repentence, without which there is NO SALVATION. The Lord says: “Preach nothing but repentance”, which I certain preach to myself.

The keys are authorized signs, tokens, and keywords to open the seven heavens. The authorization to use those keys is what makes One Man the legitimate keyholder. Keys can be stolen, and ofter are, ever since Cain, Ham, Esau, Pharoah’s Priests, the Rabbis of Judea, Christians, and FLDS apostates persecuted and prosecuted the true disciple and stole away certain claims to knowledge and authority (John 10:8):

All that ever came before me (except One Man at a time), are thieves and robbers (men attempting to use certain keys without authority, like the King Saul in calling up the ghost of the Prophet Samuel, for relief). But the sheep did NOT hear them (they knew the Master’s voice).


This is long enough for now. There is more to these very costly keys, which I will add in another post.

ConcernedTXan said...

I agree with Ruth Stubbs, Carolyn Jessop & Sara Hammons point of view about Warren being a "wolf in sheep's clothing".

Anonymous said...

Muggsey the point wasnt that big dan's judges everyone that walks through the door!! The point was I have seen him serve all walks of life. We understand the media and understand why they are there but we (the customers) dont want a camera in our face everytime we go to eat. Thanks for trying to twist this you are becoming as bad as onthestreet.

ATAR_i said...

OTS - you are not the regular OTS, you are the one who posts occassionally under his pseudonym.

Initially when you posted under his nickname - I thought - wow, what a difference anti psychotic meds make. Though we don't agree, your posts are intelligible, and although they try to remain consistent with OTS weird associations - I just don't think you can get yourself to do it (feigning mental illness doesn't come easily to you).

It was at that point I realized you were a second poster, using OTS's nickname, and not a medicated OTS. I have only seen you post occassionally, and it is nice to have you back. How are you related to the original OTS?

Big differences between you and OTS #1

1. You acknowledge FLDS husbands and wives have sex.

2. Your posts proceed in a logical manner (for the most part), not just random words and thoughts lumped together in one sentence

3. I'm fairly certain OTS could spell consent.

Just so you know. I've now put 7 keys on my keychain - yay for me - Thanks for letting me know how costly and priceless my keys are - I tend to just think they are keys - now I know they are access to the seven planes of heaven.

So - does law enforcement now have the master keys to the seven planes of heaven since they have warrens keys?

You asked if flatulence was a form of free expression.

Well, for some, excessive flatulence is a physical manifestation of a medical ailment.

Others, it's the result of a medical procedure, or a surgery.

FOR EVERYONE ELSE - flatulence (gas) is a fact of life. If you don't pass gas, you die - simple as that. Gas is the byproduct of a working intestinal tract. The normal peristalsis that bring food from your stomach to be expelled from your rectum also bring pockets of air. Certain foods/drinks create more air than others - but there is ALWAYS AIR.

If you've ever had an intestinal surgery, you will find nurses and physicians listening for your stomach. You will not receive nutrition via your mouth until they hear your 'bowel tones' i.e. GAS. Once you have that - you can eat. Without it - you cannot. The food will just sit there, you'll do one of two things - you will throw it up, or you'll get an intestinal blockage.

So basically - flatulence or death.

I don't consider it an expression - I consider it a physical fact of life - a manifestation of a living being.

ATAR_i said...

So does Dan own the grocery store or the restaurant? Will it open up again - perhaps with a sign (no cameras allowed).

I don't see any problem with keeping cameras out of private business.

Was it the way in which it was done which has provoked such a response?

I realize that the media shy FLDS do not like cameras, but perhaps the 'go to hell' comments, and the 'FU finger signs' or attacking cameras are provoking more curiousity than a gentle 'no thank you' or 'no cameras please'.

It's just a thought, but intense media scrutiny/attention is just beginning, and perhaps a community response which is united and non confrontational might be worth looking into. Maybe you guys need a town meeting.

muggsey said...

Annon. 9:26

I respect Big Dan's right to serve whom he will in his place of business. I also understand the nuisance of rude individuals who pry into other people's business.

The one thing that must be understood here is that the media has a job to do. Yes, on occasion they come across as being rude and pry into something that you don't think is their business. They act in the way they are trained to act. There whole purpose in life is to ask hard questions, some of which seem to be prying into private affairs.

If FLDS and Warren Jeffs had not been the focus of news articles ever since The Eldorado Success first ask the question regarding the truthfulness of the purchase of the YFZ ranch. The lie, reported by the Success and to Sheriff Doran that the bildings were to be a hunting retreat is what started this whole blown up affair. Had the truth been told from the get-go perhaps it would never have made headlines and caught the interest of Flora Jeffs and her concerns.

We citizens of Schleicher County knew that polygamy was practiced in isolated areas within the country but, since it occurred elsewhere we didn't give it much thought. Our first concerns were: are we going to experience our daughters being snatched up and married to some old geezer without our knowledge or approval. We had no idea of the closed community you possess here. What kind of illegal activities take place in such a compound. We vividly remember The Jonestown, Branch Davidian and Heaven's Gate incidents. Was something like those going to happen on our front porch? The secrecy of the FLDS only sparked greater concern. What did you have to hide?

The idea of a potential enconomy operating outside the collective government of our county caused us to begin to think of the ramifications regarding health issues, law enforcement, educational responsability of the School district toward the children of this new community, building and maintenance of roads, the drain of and potential pollution of our one great natural resource, water. Less than three years ago the Water District reported that there was significant drop in the water table under the county. Will this new community cause our one resource to deplete? There are no running streams in Schleicher County. The County's settlement came about as the result of water being found underground.

This narrative is to help all who read this blog to gain an understanding of just what affect the sudden apearance of a group of "strange" people, so secretive that they kept their gate locked and bared visitors caused and still causes grave concern. We, here in Schleicher County are just folks, normal everyday Southwest Texans who possess a great deal of independent spirit and who from a young age are taught to think for ourselves and act independently. If we are curious, it's a natural response when an event occurs totally unexpected and unwelcome.

It is really not our concern who owns or operates YFZ. We do resent that we weren't told the truth from the beginning. And, we do have a grave concern regarding the possible abuse of children, their lack of access to a good education and their being taught to obediance regardless of concequence.

monkey! said...

CTR:
I appreciate your explanation. I was not raised FLDS and only know about it what I have read. If indeed EVERY girl is not being married until 18, then by all means, I correct myself and apologize for my ignorance. I feel strongly that there are at least some girls who are married before the age of 18. If this is not the vast majority... then that is really, really wonderful. I agree that there are a great many teenage girls (and boys too) that are mature for their age. These kids are generally the exception to the rule. Emotional development occurs as a response to physical growth, parental upbringing, personal experience, and social culture. Because I was not raised FLDS I can not speak for the rate at which these girls mature. I doubt that ALL of these girls embody the understanding and maturity to be married (even at 18).

Knowing of girls who wanted to get married long before they were married is an interesting subject. Is this REALLY what these girls wanted? When I was 16 I wanted to move to New York City and be a fashion designer. When I was 18 I wanted to go to college for business. At 23 I decided (based on life experience) that I wanted to be a psychologist. I also had a few different boyfriends (who I thought I wanted to marry... and am really glad that I didn’t). Being young and inexperienced, I didn't really have a foundation to know what I wanted. I think more that children learn from their parents, siblings, and community; these people play a big role in shaping a child into who they are (especially during developmental periods). Since birth these girls have seen the women in their community getting married and having babies. Are there any other choices there other than marriage and children? How do these girls KNOW that this is what they want if they have not been offered any other choices?

OTS:
I have a daughter. I would NEVER, EVER, EVER give consent for her to marry before she was 18. I would not want to set her up for that sort of a life. I would not want to limit her choices. I would not want to give consent for her to deprive her self of experience (college, traveling, missions work, etc.). The Lord blessed me with her in my life. Her father and I happily take on the responsibility of raising her. If she fell in love at a young age, I would never consent to her marrying at that age. I would expect her to wait and then make the choice for herself at a time when she was old enough to handle such a responsibility. "The Prophet" has a revelation as to who the Lord wants a girl to marry, is this correct? If the parents do not concede to this, what happens to them? Are they dismissed from the community? Are their children re-assigned? Do they have any choice in this? What if the girl does not want to be married and the parents concede to the marriage to stay in good favor with the Lord and "The Prophet?"

Here is an example: My daughter is 1 year old, and she has a fascination with steps. She constantly wants to climb the steps by herself. She gets really frustrated when I insist on helping her. She KNOWS what she WANTS to do, but I know that if I let her do what she wants, she'll tumble down the stairs and get hurt. Now, should I concede to her choice because she is mature for her age? I don't think so.

OAS

P.S. - Sorry I am so long winded. :)

muggsey said...

Not so bad in length. See some of ots's and my posts.

I agree with your hypothesis.

Anonymous said...

OAS-
I really appreciate your desire to understand. To answer your question of "are there any other choices?" and "The Prophet" has a revelation as to who the Lord wants a girl to marry, is this correct?"

I can answer your questions together. The choices in a girls life are not "other", I have never met a girl, in the FLDS or out, that did not want to get married at some point. That POINT is the key. SHE decides that point. In the FLDS we believe that dating is guessing, and results in promiscuity. It is also unneccessary, the Prophet can tell you what God wants, and the man for you to marry. Sometimes the girl has been impressed who she should marry, sometimes her parents were, but girls do not get married in the FLDS until they decide they want to, their parents decide it is in her best interest, and then they go and ask the Prophet. Believe me, we love our children as much as you do or anyone else does.

There have been cases of girls saying no to the Prophet's choice, and there have been cases of the parents saying no to the prophet, because they did not feel right about it. If that is the case, the marriage does not happen. And they are not dismissed from the community. Our leader has no desire to force anyone to do anything, but he is the judge of who can be FLDS. I trust him with my life, because I know he only wants the best for me, and for my daughter.

I ask you, what is more important to you, your career or your daughter? What would you choose?

CTR

monkey! said...

CTR,

First, I need to say that I appreciate your patience and kindness in explaining your beliefs to me (honestly... really do). I have a great deal of respect for the life choices of others (especially in regards to faith). So, thank-you, much appreciated.

Your post gives me a greater understanding of FLDS, which is what I am seeking. I am trying to look at this from both sides. I of course would choose my daughter over anything in the world, she is my heart. By "other" choices I meant to ask if girls have a choice to pursue other options BEFORE marriage. I feel that a girl would be short changed to not be able to make her own choices for her life. I don't agree that dating leads to promiscuity. There is a such thing as "courting" and spending time with a member of the opposite sex with out any type of sexual intimacy. I know of a few people whose spouse "courted" them prior to marriage. They spent time at the parents home with the parents in the room, and shared their first kiss on their wedding day.

I ask this though, why does your prophet have the last say in who can be FLDS? As the Lord is the final judge, and wants no man turned away from him, why is the prophet the final judge? In understanding the bible, I've always believed that a choice like this is up to man himself and the Lord.

Another question... Is there any truth to the FLDS viewing those who are non-FLDS as followers of Satan or as not worth being treated equally? This question has been plauging me for sometime now. Each time I hear something to this effect I am curious as to why this is the case. Being born and raised Lutheran, I certainly don't agree with every other religion out there, but I certainly don't look down upon those who don't share my faith. I also know that during the time Jesus spent on earth, he spent a great deal of time with tax collectors, leppers, and prostitutes. He didn't judge.

Although OTS has yet to respond to my post, I have a bible verse for him/her. "Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you" (EPH 4:32).

OAS

Anonymous said...

I will try to answer your question as honestly as i can. I can tell you are honest in asking. We believe that Our Leader talks with God. Then it is easy for us to trust what he does say. And if a man does not treat his wife like a queen, she is not obligated to spend time being abused. We believe what is taught in the bible and the book of Mormon. There has always been a Prophet upon the earth. there is no force in our religion. Not in the teaching of it. Maybe there are men who do not prove capable of treating women right, and women who do not want to live honorably with a man, but the teachings of our religion is pure. And as to the teachings of the Gentile nation.. It is written that God puts every soul in a place that they can be the happiest to there compasity. Each person has to have there relationship with Christ. He is the judge. That is what our leader teaches; but if there are those among you who openly and willinly sin, they are cast out as also was written. then they have the opportunity to repent or to choose there evil; according to there desire. there is no force involved. All those who have left have done so willingly. The gospel is held up to all people in every nation. the law has gone forth. The law of christ is the same no matter who you are or what religion you are in. The book is written the same. All men are on a path. They are either going towards Christ or into carnal sin. then you have what you have chosen. I would not ever try to take on the responsibility of trying to judge you. I am busy enough trying to root the evil out of me. Read the book if you are honestly seeking answers....... For all the law is written. In the bible it is such; thou shalt have no other Gods before you. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image. Honor thy father and thy mother. thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear false witness. Thou shalt not lie. ect......

and in the book of mormon the law is the same....... If a man asks you to go a mile, go two. If a man asks of you his coat, give him your cloak also. If a man smites you on the cheek turn the other cheek also. ect.......

and why should we not trust a man who teaches us the law of christ...... He has forgiven. I am struggling but then when i think about the great plan of Jesus, i too can forgive. We only live once. and who will hold to love and who will be filled with anger; for as you choose this you are.......

onthestreet said...

Monkey Said (9/07/2006 1:13 PM):
"The Prophet" has a revelation as to who the Lord wants a girl to marry, is this correct? If the parents do not concede to this, what happens to them? Are they dismissed from the community? Are their children re-assigned? Do they have any choice in this? What if the girl does not want to be married and the parents concede to the marriage to stay in good favor with the Lord and "The Prophet?"

Here is an example: My daughter is 1 year old, and she has a fascination with steps. She constantly wants to climb the steps by herself. She gets really frustrated when I insist on helping her. She KNOWS what she WANTS to do, but I know that if I let her do what she wants, she'll tumble down the stairs and get hurt. Now, should I concede to her choice because she is mature for her age? I don't think so.

OAS

P.S. - Sorry I am so long winded. :)



STREET’s Reply: Two points here, in answer. Paragraph one, and then two:
1.In the work of God, ALL THINGS belong to God, not the Devil, and that includes the wives and children.

2.As for the law on the age of marriage, which is age 12 (the ancient and modern Bat Mitvah), we are talking adults here, four year in fact beyond the “age of accountability” which is age 8. So Christ Himself was being an ADULT at age 12, and the Christian Scripture says so. Therefore, they can walk. You are talking about protecting your BABY from stumbling down the stairs, at what? Age 3?

GET REAL!

Anonymous said...

What???

monkey! said...

Anon 10:12 - thank-you for your explanation. Very well worded. I do much appreciate it.

OTS -

HUH?!?!?! I wrote on another thread that the life expectancy of people during the time of Christ was around 30 years old. 12 was practically middle aged at that point. I've read the bible... I'm totally aware of what Christian Scripture states... thanks for giving me your spin on it though.

I used the METAPHORE of my daughter stumbling down stairs as just that, a metaphore. Read the whole post. I also stated that my daughter is 1 year old... not 3. Sheesh!

onthestreet said...

MONKEY: 9/08/2006 4:43 PM

Maybe the life expectancy was 30 in the many wars at that time, but life is life, and God set it at I think it was "three score and ten" on average, after the time of Abraham.

As for your "sheeshi": I was just using the age of 3 also as a metaphor. What's right for degoose is right for degander. Just giving you the benefit of dedoubt, since the age of 3 is more mature, but even then, 12 is FOUR TIMES more mature than that. Not much stumbling at 12. They walk pretty straight, in fact are more agile than most adults. That's the point, and also the rediculousness of you comparing only a one-year old to marriage at twelve, see?

If you were "totally aware of the Christian scripture", as you say, you would know the ins and outs of the concept of "Twelve", and the "field being white", which is puberty, ready to harvest, saith the Lord Himself, who also was TWELVE when He the Lord become an adult, precisely according to the just Law of the Land, the ancient Jewish tradition, which the the Gospel of Christ and NEVER changes.

onthestreet said...

TAR (buquet) SAID: 9/07/2006 10:41 AM:
So - does law enforcement now have the master keys to the seven planes of heaven since they have warrens keys?

You asked if flatulence was a form of free expression…So basically - flatulence or death.
I don't consider it an expression - I consider it a physical fact of life - a manifestation of a living being.



STREET’s Reply: Ahh, I see, for you it is: “Here come Paul Revere: Give me flatulence or give me death”! How patriotic. So you say that flatulence is what makes you “a manifest living being”. We can certainly believe that about you. For the Prophet Warren and the saints, things more sacred and refined are what make us “manifest living beings”.

As for law-enforcement having stolen keys: You forget, the physical only access the physical plane, the cars. There are six other planes, and keys associated with those planes.

onthestreet said...

MUK-SEE Said (9/07/2006 11:19 AM)
It is really not our concern who owns or operates YFZ. We do resent that we weren't told the truth from the beginning. And, we do have a grave concern regarding the possible abuse of children, their lack of access to a good education and their being taught to obediance regardless of concequence.


STREET’s Reply: Les, that is our very exact concern about you, and all outside of the FLDS. But we don’t wallow in it. Thus the MUK, SEE? Saying is it “Not your concern”, and then WALLOWING IN IT. Saying they lied when in fact it is indeed a hunting retreat, Yearning and Hunting for Zion and her souls. That is our very religion. If that is “not your concern”, why is your own poo caked up to your chin? If the FLDS Church can obey God and build a city in a day, and you can’t or won’t, who is educated? And who in the end will pull you out of your MUK?

TBM said...

I'm out of this blog. I'm so fed up with everybody just abusing and ripping on each other. This board isn't a discussion. It's a cat-fight, and I'm sick and tired of it. You all keep calling everybody else to repentance -- the whole damned lot of you need to repent. A plague on all your houses.

muggsey said...

tbm

Sorry to see you leave. Yours have been some of the more intelligent arguments. We may not have agreed but the debate was fun.

ATAR_i said...

I did that once tbm - I wish you would stay. Every once in awhile a good conversation pops up. I think we are all just cranky with each other. But it's not always like this.

fttc said...

I too am sorry to see you go. You brought a perpective that was very interesting and meaningful to me. Take a good look before you go and you will see the real cat-fights are with a very few real crackpots. (OTS, Fundy and a few Nonnys). Instead of leaving bring some interesting dialogue back, PLEASE!

Anonymous said...

Well I feel like what Uncle Dan Barlow, always said in meeting concerning things like this. " the dogs will bark, but the caravan will move on."

Anonymous said...

Back to the topic of what happens now, here is a prayer (I’m not sure the author) and a beautiful saying which I think best describes my attitude on what I will do now.

"Lord, give me the serenity to accept the things I can not change.
Courage to change the things I can.
And wisdom to know the difference."

This comes from the “Do It Anyway” Sign In Mother Teresa's Office:

People are unreasonable, illogical, and self-centered,
LOVE THEM ANYWAY
If you do good, people will accuse you of selfish, ulterior motives,
DO GOOD ANYWAY
If you are successful, you win false friends and true enemies,
SUCCEED ANYWAY
The good you do will be forgotten tomorrow,
DO GOOD ANYWAY
Honesty and frankness make you vulnerable,
BE HONEST AND FRANK ANYWAY
What you spent years building may be destroyed overnight,
BUILD ANYWAY
People really need help but may attack you if you help them,
HELP PEOPLE ANYWAY
Give the world the best you have and you'll get kicked in the teeth,
GIVE THE WORLD THE BEST YOU’VE GOT ANYWAY,


IITMOC

ATAR_i said...

That is beautiful! Philanthropy, as a way of life, a perspective for living.

I'm going to keep that one and post it somewhere.

Thanks alot IITMOC I'm grateful you posted that today.

onthestreet said...

You're welcome.

onthestreet said...

Anonymous said (9/09/2006 6:46 PM):
Well I feel like what Uncle Dan Barlow, always said in meeting concerning things like this. " the dogs will bark, but the caravan will move on."

STREET's Reply: There you go. Some of the dogs get lock-jaw, they get so damn tired of barking. Others get run over by a wagon wheel, and yet others contract fleas and have to go aside to scratch, while many will contract rabies and other diseases and simply die.

"Not so much as a yellow dog will be left to wag its tail against the Lord".

onthestreet said...

That was for TAR (9/10/2006 10:00 PM):
Your welcome, in his behalf. All ideas come from God, and you SHOULD learn all you can, my girl. That's a big girl. We are proud of the progress you are making. Maybe some of TAR on your soul will also begin to peal away, and the glow of your soul begin to shine through.

ATAR_i said...

Street you know NOT the condition of my heart.

Anonymous said...

OTS,

If all ideas come from the Lord, what do we need the devil for?

What I want is the wisdom to know the difference between the Lord's ideas and those from another source.

You, ots, are not that source of divine wisdom, do not represent that source, and as near as I can tell by your writings on this blog do not believe in that source of wisdom that only comes from our Lord.

I can't change you or stop you from posting, but I can ignore you, which is what I will do on all future posts.

I'm not sure why I even posted this response to you, because I should know better than to get into a battle of wit, logic and deductive reasoning with an unarmed person.

IITMOC

monkey! said...

OTS: "Maybe the life expectancy was 30 in the many wars at that time, but life is life, and God set it at I think it was "three score and ten" on average, after the time of Abraham.

As for your "sheeshi": I was just using the age of 3 also as a metaphor. What's right for degoose is right for degander. Just giving you the benefit of dedoubt, since the age of 3 is more mature, but even then, 12 is FOUR TIMES more mature than that. Not much stumbling at 12. They walk pretty straight, in fact are more agile than most adults. That's the point, and also the rediculousness of you comparing only a one-year old to marriage at twelve, see?

If you were "totally aware of the Christian scripture", as you say, you would know the ins and outs of the concept of "Twelve", and the "field being white", which is puberty, ready to harvest, saith the Lord Himself, who also was TWELVE when He the Lord become an adult, precisely according to the just Law of the Land, the ancient Jewish tradition, which the the Gospel of Christ and NEVER changes."

First, the average age expectency during the time of Christ had little to do with the wars of the times. It had to with disease, lack of medical care, quality of life, and environmental conditions. Have you heard of Darwin's theory of natural selection? Any clue as to why people live so longer now than they did 2,000 years ago? Please find the bible verse that says the age was "3 Score and 10"

Setting the record straight... I used the metaphore of my daughter wanting to walk the stairs alone. She really KNOWS that it is what she WANTS. If I allow her to do so, she will fall and get hurt. I was comparing this to girls at ages 12-17 KNOWING that they want to get married and the parents saying "Okay." It doesn't make any sort of good sense to me.

I'm am totally familiar with Biblical Scripture and what is written. I am not however familiar with your interpretation of it. I choose not to read into what was written to make out of it what I want it to be.

OAS

Anonymous said...

well said, IItmoc.
this man,""on the street" (and Im sure its A man, because no woman would talk about A 12 year old girl like that.) is A prime example of A man whoes mind is not his owen. He seems to communicate in slogans,cliche`s,irrelivent rambling scriptureal quotes and slander. the only hope for him is to cnotinue under the likes of WJ untill it gets so bad even he can see some glimmer of light.

a sad comentary by Bluebeard.
PS.
thare OTS, that ought to give you somethihg to chew up and spew out
of your mouth.

.

Anonymous said...

Well many people have wondered if Warren Jeffs would carry on with his tell them nothing routine or if he would fight the charges, well a SLC newspaper reports that Warren Jeffs has hired two high profile lawyers, he has also had his Nevada attorney try to get back items such as papers, letters $50,000, and his computers. IMO fat chance of getting items back, don't think the claim of items being "scared" will fly with the judge.

Read moe; Warrren Jeffs Lawyers

Anonymous said...

Here's more trouble for Warren Jeffs & FLDS, seems that the ranking Democratic senator in US Congress has called for a federal investigation into Warren Jeffs activities. Sen Harry reid was qouted in a newspaper article saying in reference to Jeffs: "For too long, this outrageous activity has been disguised in the mask of religious freedom," said Reid. Read rest of article: Senator Calls for Investigation

ATAR_i said...

I wonder if this commission, like the 9/11 commission will show how individuals - perhaps not in the FLDS, were actively avoiding dealing with complaints, or not taking them seriously.

It will be interesting to see what they find.

TBM said...

Atar_i, Muggsey, and FTTC:

Thanks for your kind comments -- I have to admit I wasn't aware my comments had made such an impact!

onthestreet said...

THE MONKEY (OAS) Said (9/11/2006 2:58 PM):
Please find the bible verse that says the age was "3 Score and 10"
I was comparing this to girls at ages 12-17 KNOWING that they want to get married and the parents saying "Okay." It doesn't make any sort of good sense to me.


STREET’s Reply: I hadn’t taken the time to look it up, but seeing how dogs much chomp at everything they sniff, I see that I must even answer you on that. As my post indicates, I was just guessing as to the age of man designated by the Lord. But indeed, having looked it up, the age of man was designated by the Lord after Noah, and it is far beyond your “30-years”. The Lord said: “120 years”, which is possible even today (Gen 6:3):

And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

As for marriage at 12-27 not making any sort of good sense to you, that is correct. There is no good sense with most, unless you are conceived, born, and raised for that very purpose, good sense, an inward-sense or insense. It takes being raised “like a calf in a stall”, saith the Lord. If you are left to view any CRAP you want, to run senselessly wild, and to sow wild seed, then that is what you reap, the senseless. Throughout nature, the female begins to procreate with menstruation. Throughout the land, that is God’s law, throughout nature. It is the law of the land.

YOU SAID: I'm am totally familiar with Biblical Scripture and what is written (obviously not). I am not however familiar with your interpretation of it. I choose not to read into what was written to make out of it what I want it to be.

STREET’s Reply. That is correct. You are not familiar with the deeper mysteries of the Kingdom of God, and for good reason. If you just read the ink, you miss what goes deeper than ink. Your rejecting the deeper meanings, which also come straight from the Christian Bible, means that you are giving it your own interpretation, and therefore rejecting the very Word of God in Holy Writ, and make it what you want it to be.

ATAR_i said...

OTS -

I think you're right about men waiting to marry until they are 120 years old.

It's only right that both men and women have to wait until your magical age.

ATAR_i said...

And while we are on the subject

A Bar Mitzvah for a boy, is the same thing as a Bat Mitzvah for a girl.

So the Bar Mitzvah happens for the boy at 12 years of age - why aren't they getting married and starting families.

I mean - it's not like the men in the FLDS support their wives - they are all on welfare anyhow.

It's not like he couldn't be given a piece of property, and start his family - think of how many children he could have if he started that early!

It's not like he goes to school, and he's already working with the men.

How come no boys marry at 12?

This is of course BS - because boys and girls shouldn't marry at 12..

onthestreet said...

WHAT HAPPENS NOW
TAR Said (9/16/2006 10:07 AM): So the Bar Mitzvah happens for the boy at 12 years of age - why aren't they getting married and starting families.I mean - it's not like the men in the FLDS support their wives - they are all on welfare anyhow.

STREET’s Reply:
Well then, you answered your own question, didn’t you. They USUALLY don’t marry at that age because of what you just suggested: Not mature enough to support a family, see? Yet the girls? Girls don’t lead families anyway, so their qualification to be a primary supporter of a family is never an issue. Yet Christ, at 12, was “about my Father’s business”, and in the history of the FLDS Church back to Joseph, 12-year old boys have indeed been married. Again, marriage at this age is for the virgin. Few girls are virgin at puberty when they are “discovering themselves”, and far fewer boys are virgin at 12, for that same reason.

ATAR_i said...

Hmmm, so much for 'be sweet' if you have 12 year old's whose virginity whose virtue is coming into question.

You answered my questions. Boys aren't mature enough at 12, neither are girls.

Boys don't need to support a family - grown men in your community don't.

onthestreet said...

Correct, at age 12 most people are unqualified, having learned too much evil brought in from the outside. Thus the "Lost Boys", see? This is why if they're not raised as calves in a stall, or what the scriputures call "heafers", then they are not virgin. Only the very elect qualify for that distinction.

Most girls at age 12 in the world have had "sex education" both at school and in the alleys or their own bedrooms.

ATAR_i said...

Hey - if they learned so much evil in your closed society - your parents didn't do their job very well.

Are they having a hard time keeping an eye on all their children?

And ewww - no, most 12 year old girls do not have sex education in alleys or their own bedrooms.

You sick pedophile.

onthestreet said...

Is it sick to say there is evil in the world. You're only displaying your desperation for blood, and to continue justifying the sex offenders in your own family, calling it "intimate love" and the like.

The Lord was not sick, nor a pedophile, when he declared (Rev. 12:9):

"And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world".

If you are in the world, and not come out of it, consider yourself well-deceived, for Christ Himself has just said so. So, is it true?

ATAR_i said...

It's ok, I know you're deceived, and trying to do what you think is right. Just stop having sex with children, it's a step in the right direction.

onthestreet said...

9/20/2006 8:31 PM:
See, you call deception "OKAY". God had "sex" with a child, a virgin who abide her nation's law, the Bat Mitzvah, to marry at age 12. Right, "just stop obeying God and you'll feel just fine". Crucify the Christ anew, and you'll feel just fine.

Your so-called "steps in the right direction" are just the opposite, being deceived. The devils in you are legion, and that is NOT okay, you poor, pathetic little thing.

onthestreet said...

9/20/2006 8:31 PM:
See, you call deception "OKAY". God had "sex" with a child, a virgin who abide her nation's law, the Bat Mitzvah, to marry at age 12. Right, "just stop obeying God and you'll feel just fine". Crucify the Christ anew, and you'll feel just fine.

Your so-called "steps in the right direction" are just the opposite, being deceived. The devils in you are legion, and that is NOT okay, you poor, pathetic little thing.

onthestreet said...

You see, Tar, it is NOT SEX to "leave those girls alone", as the FLDS Prophets command and require. It is your bragging of your sexual relations that shows the sex-offender in you.

We certainly hope some day you can overcome that.

ATAR_i said...

Stop having sex with children OTS.

Stop supporting your prophet while he defiles little boy and girls.

Stop supporting your prophet while he encourages old men to have sex with children.

You sick sexual predator.

Anonymous said...

Street,

Warren personally told me that it is a sin to not bear children when married.

The only thing I am aware of sexually is to leave expectant and overage mothers alone, which can lead to a "mother-may-I" situation. In Uncle Rulon's days, appointments were often done with the door open and there wasn't that much privacy. As I was waiting for my appointment, one man was in with a couple of his ladies and he wanted to know if he could still have sex with one of his wives. He didn't know if she would be able to have another child or not and wanted to know if it was OK to keep trying. Uh, Uncle Rulon, on such sensitive issues, couldn't you at least close the door? Better yet, can't you let people make their own decisions?

onthestreet said...

9/21/2006 8:57 AM, 9/21/2006 9:00 AM

Like I said, there is never that kind of sex among the faithful, and the world has seen the Prophet cast out all who approach that level of perversion. So TAR’s desperate repletion to STOP IT is a plea to her own self, a vengeful cry for relief from her own perversions. NONNY just now confessed to witnessing the Prophet tell the men to “leave that girl alone”, but missed the fact that the Gospel of Christ is NOT just for child-bearing, but a 24 hour a day job, every day, and forever, to “Leave that girl alone”. It is an eternal law.

Nonny also confessed just now the policy and practice of the FLDS, to keep sexual matters innocent and open to scrutiny, not the shame of many that require that they hide it because of their sin. Your conceptions should be as pure and innocent as the children you conceive, or else you are sex-offenders. It is an open-door policy, to flush out the offender, so that what remains is the conception from the heart and the head, not from the dirt between your legs.

Nonny also misses the fact that “leaving that girl alone” just NOT mean leave her childless. Spiritual unions involve spiritual conceptions, so they are things of the spirit, and things of the spirit cannot be comprehended except by the spirit. So long as TAR and everyone else insist on sowing to the body and remaining in the perversion of the body, the temple of God, they defile it and remain sex-offenders. “That temple which is defiled, I the Lord will destroy that temple”, saith the Lord (I Cor. 3:17):

17. If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

18. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.

19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

muggsey said...

ots

Have you given common sense thought to the necessity of ignoring your profit when his request is not in the best interest of society. You are responsible for your acts, not he. Do you honestly believe that he cares whether or not you are arrested and jailed because of your unlawful acts. I hardly think so.

WAKE UP, RUN INTO A BRICK WALL A FEW TIMES, HEAD FIRST. IT WILL REQUIRE SOMETHING THAT DRAMATIC TO GET YOR ATTENTION. Withdraw from la-la land. The "yellow brick road" isn't going anywhere, just around in circles.

onthestreet said...

MUGGSEY Said (9/21/2006 3:48 PM):
Have you given common sense thought to the necessity of ignoring your profit when his request is not in the best interest of society. You are responsible for your acts, not he…Withdraw from la-la land. The "yellow brick road" isn't going anywhere, just around in circles.

STREET’s Reply: There you go! You are so correct, the people are responsible, NOT HE. Therefore, there is no crime committed by him as “accessory to rape”. The judges, the priests, the Prophet perform the marriages, BUT THE PEOPLE ARE RESPONSIBLE for the outcome, NOT the judges or the priests, or the Prophet. The whole world knows this.

You have finally spoken a truth. You are to be commended. As for “la-la land yellow-brick road, yes there is a heaven, and you are correct again, it doesn’t go anywhere for the wicked. Yet, for the saints, this is the very thing that the FLDS people conceive, are born to, live for, and work for, and die for. Another truth. Again, you are to be commended.

muggsey said...

WHY DO YOU PEOPLE LISTEN TO THE MAD RAVINGS OF SUCH A LUNATIC?????

LIES, LIES, LIES AND MORE LIES.

WHY CAN'T JEFFS TAKE RESPONSABILITY FOR YOUR PROBLEMS?

AFTER ALL, ALL YOU DID WAS FOLLOW THE LEADER AS YOU HAVE BEEN INSTRUCTED TO DO.

AREN'T LEADERS SUPPOSED TO LEAD?

WHERE HAS HIS LEADERSHIP BEEN?

WHY CAN'T JEFFS BE GUILTY OF SIN HE COMMITS? ARE YOU HIS SCAPE-GOATS?

CAN'T HE SHOW LEADERSHIP QUALITIES AND ASSUME RESPONSABILITY FOR HIS MAKING A MESS OF YOUR LIVES AND FORTUNES?

TELL YOUR PRIESTHOOD TO JUMP INTO HADES. THAT'S WHERE THEY ARE LEADING YOU.

ISN'T ANYONE SMART ENOUGH TO FIGURE THINGS OUT? YOU ARE BEING USED, AGAIN AND AGAIN AND ALL YOU DO IS KEEP RETURNING FOR ANOTHER BEATING.

WARREN JEFFS IS NOT YOUR FRIEND. HE IS NOT CALLED OF GOD. HE IS AN IMPOSTER. HE IS A FRAUD. HE STEALS YOUR MONEY AND BUILDS SHRINES TO HIS OWN GLORY, NOT GOD'S.

HE TAKES YOUR FAMILY AND TURNS THEM AGAINST YOU. HE TAKES YOUR LAND AND HOLDS IT'S TITLE AS A THREAT OVER YOUR HEADS. HE MOVES YOUR LIVLEYHOOD AWAY FROM WHERE YOU LIVE. HE HERDS YOU, LIKE YOU WERE OXEN, UNABLE TO THINK OR DO FOR YOURSELF.

ATAR_i said...

yes ots - those old men have sex with those girls.

Anonymous said...

Muggsey

Shouting at cult followers doesn't help things.

muggsey said...

neither do whispers.

I'M TRYING TO GET SOMEONE'S ATTENTION! IF IT MAKES YOU MAD ENOUGH TO DO SOMETHING TO HELP YOURSELVES OUT OF THE MESS THAT YOUR LIVES ARE IN, MY RAGE HAS SERVED IT'S PURPOSE.

I fear that they have been told to "be sweet" so often that they haven't learned to take the necessary precautions to protect themselves from a repeat performance.

Anonymous said...

this man we call onthestreet,was told by warren,"keep sweet",but we all have A hunch,if warren asks him to lunch,keep sweet, street, but dont drink the punch!
Bluebeard

muggsey said...

Good observation Bluebeard.

I noticed that Warren wore his profit's clothing for his second court appearance. Too bad he didn't appear in prison orange or the shorts and tee shirt, sans garments, he was wearing when apprehended.

Was someone paid off in an effort to improve his immage? Hmmmmm???

onthestreet said...

MUK Said (9/22/2006 8:01 PM):
MY RAGE HAS SERVED IT'S PURPOSE.


STREET's Reply: The scripture fulfilled: "The Devil will rage".

onthestreet said...

ATAR_i said (9/22/2006 7:42 AM):
yes ots - those old men have sex with those girls.

STREET's Reply: Wherever this is so, this is why they are old, and cast off.

"I the Lord will take the young and middle-aged to redeem Zion".

ATAR_i said...

Yes, exactly, that's why warren is in jail.

Anonymous said...

I have heard that Val Jessop has been given a third wife, has anyone else heard this? Apparently this was before Warren was caught.

onthestreet said...

ATAR_i said (10/03/2006 7:51 AM):
Yes, exactly, that's why warren is in jail.


STREET's Reply: Christ and all His prophets were incarcerated one way or another, yet were they old or cast off? You decide. No one else can do that for you.

muggsey said...

Becoming old is a natural progression. If you live enough midnights and sunrises you will become old. This is a fact.

To be cast off can mean discarded, thrown away, or it can relate to the terms used in nautical language to instruct deck hands to remove the binding lines that hold a boat to it's pier or mooring.

From reading your previous posts I am beginning to wonder if you have any idea what your much used and redundant vocabulary means.

It's like a few therefores, it came to past, in it's own season et. al. Make it sound like King James English and you give it credability. Yeah right!

onthestreet said...

Les, we speak of the spirit, not of the body. You being evil, would mock things spiritual and holy, for that is the spirit that is in you, which cometh from beneath.

muggsey said...

Thank you for your kindness. From your holiness and spiritual being come these condemnatory remarks. I quake with fear at your rantings!!!!!! Now, go crawl back into your hole.

onthestreet said...

The Lord moves a man, if it is according to the Truth.

muggsey said...

Your LORD dwells in the depths of hell.

onthestreet said...

Yes, Jesus decended to the depths, and ascended to the hights. Well put.

muggsey said...

Street,

My confidence in the salvation of my immortal soul into the hands of a loving and caring Savior is beyond your comprehension. Obviously you have never experienced salvation therefore you are at a loss to be able to understand orexplain it's meaning. It's comfort is something you have never experienced.

You may rant, rave, make subtile remarks in an attempt to cause me to be fretful and agonize as to the truth to which I hold fast. Such efforts on your part spark no fear on my part. You have no power over my soul, not now, never.

Your rantings and pretensions are in vain. They are certainly not causing me to fear for my eternal destiny. I KNOW where I am going. I began the trip years ago. I walk daily with my Savior by my side. I have no fear of you, your prophet, your religion, your teachings, your gods, your priesthood nor any curse you may call down upon me in the name of Joseph Smith or any of your
prophet(s).

My LORD is JESUS CHRIST, I have told you this before, many times. I serve a risen Savior. He is alive and on HIS THRONE at the right hand of GOD HIS FATHER, LORD of HEAVEN AND EARTH. The third part of the TRINITY is known as THE HOLY SPIRIT, HE interceeds in my behalf, serves as a messenger to me from GOD'S throne.

Whether you believe or not my message of love and forgivness is your right and priviledge. Understand this: You have been told the truth, what you do with that truth is beyond my ability to decide. That you must do for yourself.

onthestreet said...

The question is not whether people believe YOU Les, but whether they believe God, see? And you just say things daily that are in direct opposition to His Word. So how can people believe it? Yes, His Word has been told and it is truth, but it has not come from you. It comes from God.

Anonymous said...

I'm Mormon, and I believe in my heart that this is where I should be. Let men worship how they wish to worship as long as it does not infringe on the rights of another man.

I'm not FLDS...I don't know where their beliefs differ from mine, and I couldn't care less to be honest...but I certainly won't sit around and waste my time being nasty to them. Is that how Christians treat other Christians? Apparently so...

TRUE Christians will not act like you all do to others. Joseph Smith and his people were slaughtered for their beliefs...tell me that is constitutional...IT'S NOT.

How's about deciding what you all have in common instead of focusing so much on the differences.

As for the Book Of Mormon, evidence is found all the time that supports it's claims. There is no proof anywhere that can discredit it into unbelief. Joseph Smith said:

"Our missionaries are going forth into different nations, the standard of truth has been erected...armies may assemble mobs may combine and calomny may defame, but the truth of God will go forth boldly and noblely...until the great Jehovah shall say "The work is done""

That promise rings true today. TRUE LDS members have withstood much more over time than any other religion and as Joseph Smith Promised: "NO UNHALLOWED HAND CAN STOP THE WORK FROM PROGRESSING"...and none ever has.

Just remember, there are many truths in many religions. Seek them out and add those truths to the truths you already know.