Tuesday, August 15, 2006

Polygamy, LDS Lies and More Lies

The newest Mormon Relief Society (women's auxiliary) manual mentions Brigham Young, second president of the church, as having only one wife. In truth, Young had 56 wives.

The LDS Church, which brought polygamy with it to Utah during the mid-1800s, has been busy trying to induce amnesia by pretending the faithful never lived polygamy or ever defended it as a commandment from God. The LDS Church as an institution will barely accept its own history about polygamy much less take responsibility for the legacy left by it.

The LDS are trying their best to lie to everyone, including their very OWN members. IF YOU ARE LDS you really need to understand the amount of lies that your leadership, Gordon B. Hinkleberry, are trying to feed you.

The point here is how do you trust a church which is obviously lieing to its members? When are they telling the truth and when are they lieing? All you LDS out there, You Cannot trust a church which lies to you.
The truth be known, Hinkleberry is only a relic, which is used for display purposes only. Other people are in charge at the LDS church.

47 comments:

rumor-has-it said...

And what are you selling?
Or what are you buying?

Your point is????
Who do you trust??
What church do you belong to?

TBM said...

Well, I'd have to see the manual. But it would be pretty ridiculous for the church to pretend that BY only had one wife, because everyone knows he had loads of them. There's not much point telling a lie that no-one will believe!

I suspect you've mis-interpreted the context. Anti-Mormons do that quite a lot, I've noticed.

As for this evil leadership, cynically perpetrating mass fraud on the whole world -- well, sorry fundy, but that isn't my experience of the LDS church.

It's a good church, a supportive, loving church. It doesn't always get everything right -- it's run by humans after all. But overall, a faithful LDS life is a good one.

The general authorities, in my experience, are wise, kind and gentle people. One prominent general authority used to be my mission president, and I know him to be a man of enormous love and integrity.

The concept of all this being really a sinister force of manipulation is, well, frankly, just a little ridiculous. besides, Christ said that "by their fruits shall ye know them." An evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit. And the fruit of the LDS church, in my experience, is good.

LDS work hard, have close families with lower divorce rates than average, are generally better educated than average, have much lower rates of alcohol and drug abuse, of teenage pregnancy, sexually transmitted diseases, and all the other social ills that plague America -- are these the fruit of an evil tree?

ATAR_i said...

fundy <----- likes to erase threads - DON'T POST HERE

fundy said...

tbm: says: It's a good church, a supportive, loving church. It doesn't always get everything right -- it's run by humans after all. But overall, a faithful LDS life is a good one.

Fundy says: They are too much in the habit of lieing to everyone. How in the world can you believe they have the truth WHEN THEY DON'T tell the TRUTH???
They fabricate church history, translation they LIE about church history.
HOW IN THE WORLD CAN YOU TRUST A CHURCH THAT BLATANTLY LIES TO YOU??????????

I would agree that out of all the Mormon churches out there it may be the best to belong to, however I would NEVER believe anything they have to say about doctrine or church history.

TBM said...

Fundy HOW IN THE WORLD CAN YOU TRUST A CHURCH THAT BLATANTLY LIES TO YOU??????????

Umm, it doesn't. I do study Mormon history, from all manner of sources, and I think the LDS church's own histories are actually surprisingly honest. Obviously, they put the best spin they can on everything. But as for lies and fabrications, I haven't noticed any. Perhaps you could enlighten us with a couple of examples?

fundy said...

Thats pretty easy.

The manifesto is a joke, that the LDS keep pushing as revelation.

Hogwash

Hinckleberry a profit:

Hogwash, a covenant with death, death and hell is all he will ever find.

The LDS Empire has been built on a fabrication of lies. Such a foundation will surely fall.

Anonymous said...

FUNDY WHAT DO YOU BELEIVE?

WHAT CHURCH DO YOU ATTEND?

FUNDY, DO YOU BELIEVE IN ANYTHING?

I BELIEVE SOMEWHERE YOU SAID YOU WERE FLDS? OR WAS I DREAMING?

fundy said...

Well this should be obvious. I am a fudamentalist Mormon. Fundy, get it? I went to Centenial Park Sunday Sabboth meeting a couple of weeks ago. I like the people, not impressed with the leadership.

Anonymous said...

dont reply on a fundy thread!

TBM said...

And your supporting evidence for these opinions of yours is ...?

Anonymous said...

I know how to get Fundy to delete a thread, so I'll post this here so he will delete this thread.

This is the dispensation of the fulness of times. When God reveals something in THIS day it will be fulfilled, If that is true God will not take anything back that He has commanded to be lived in this day. The fulness of times is the day when All things that were ever revealed shall be lived by the faithful.

Who is living All Things?

The two greatest Laws are these:
1- The Law of United Order i.e. "All things in common" (the economic order of heaven)
2- The Law of Celestial and Plural marraige. (the family order of heaven)

In order to live these highest laws there must be "one man" who directs them. He must be appointed by God through legitimate authority. That meand BY the "one man" preceding him

All apostacy has been to refute one, two, or all three of these.

There is only one people who fit all of these. And that is the people who follow Warren Jeffs.

“Let me tell you it is the truth of the Lord God Almighty, and if a man will not do right, God will remove him out of his place forthwith. ...There was no possibility of Joseph [or Warren]leading the people astray. If I thought that God would suffer a man to lead a righteous people astray I would not serve him, I would leave him and seek another; I serve the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers; he has called Joseph and will never let him lead this people astray, but when he has done his work he will take him to himself. I never was afraid of my friends, and you need not be; the Lord Almighty will never suffer his people to go astray, unless they as a people want to follow iniquity; never, no never, no never.” (Brigham Young Mil Star 12:275 4/6/1850)

CTR

Anonymous said...

I know how to get Fundy to delete a thread, so I'll post this here so he will delete this thread.

This is the dispensation of the fulness of times. When God reveals something in THIS day it will be fulfilled, If that is true God will not take anything back that He has commanded to be lived in this day. The fulness of times is the day when All things that were ever revealed shall be lived by the faithful.

Who is living All Things?

The two greatest Laws are these:
1- The Law of United Order i.e. "All things in common" (the economic order of heaven)
2- The Law of Celestial and Plural marraige. (the family order of heaven)

In order to live these highest laws there must be "one man" who directs them. He must be appointed by God through legitimate authority. That meand BY the "one man" preceding him

All apostacy has been to refute one, two, or all three of these.

There is only one people who fit all of these. And that is the people who follow Warren Jeffs.

“Let me tell you it is the truth of the Lord God Almighty, and if a man will not do right, God will remove him out of his place forthwith. ...There was no possibility of Joseph [or Warren]leading the people astray. If I thought that God would suffer a man to lead a righteous people astray I would not serve him, I would leave him and seek another; I serve the God of Abraham, of Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers; he has called Joseph and will never let him lead this people astray, but when he has done his work he will take him to himself. I never was afraid of my friends, and you need not be; the Lord Almighty will never suffer his people to go astray, unless they as a people want to follow iniquity; never, no never, no never.” (Brigham Young Mil Star 12:275 4/6/1850)

CTR

Anonymous said...

CTR,

There are two great laws I believe are of utmost importance.

1) Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, might, mind and strength.

2) Love thy neighbor as they self

Where do these fit in since apparently they are not as important as serving the "one man"?

IITMOC

furnace said...

As I said on another thread, a little common sense shows this idea of Brigham's to be total nonsense.

If it were correct doctrine, why has the Lord allowed so many "apostate" leaders to go astray. Here Brigham says "if a man will not do right, God will remove him out of his place forthwith" Now, I have yet to see God kill one religious leader with a meteorite or open up the earth and swallow them up. Even Ervil Lebaron, who killed rivals, didn't have a heart attack before he started his killings.

ogre said...

great point , Furnace.
If our leaders were not allowed to be morrtal and make mistakes, then why not worship them?? they would in fact be Godly.
Our agency allows us to inquire, to challenge to disagree with the men that are in fact on the same playing field we all are on. The idea that a mans title makes him better or more worthy in his opinions is ridiculous
John Taylor made the comment that he did't care if people disagreed with him as long as they were civil and christlike about it.

fundy said...

FLDS member said:

Who is living All Things?

The two greatest Laws are these:
1- The Law of United Order i.e. "All things in common" (the economic order of heaven)
2- The Law of Celestial and Plural marraige. (the family order of heaven)

Fundy Said:
The LDS at one time had fullness of the gospel and were living such laws.
They have since lost it.
The FLDS had clain to the fulness at one time.
They have since lost it.

The Powers of Heaven will give a charge to them they have chosen to regain and put straight the fullnes of the Gospel here on earth. They will establish an outpost of Zion not that far from CC. They will also bring the Lords judgement to the LDS church in Northern Utah. They will cut the head and tail off the LDS Church in a single day. It will be no more.

Anonymous said...

"All covenants, contracts, bonds, obligations, oaths, vows, performances, connections, associations, or expectations, that are not made and entered into and sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, of him who is anointed, both as well for time and for all eternity, and that too most holy, by revelation and commandment through the medium of mine anointed, whom I have appointed on the earth to hold this power (and I have appointed unto my servant Joseph to hold this power in the last days, and there is never but one on the earth at a time on whom this power and the keys of this priesthood are conferred), are of no efficacy, virtue, or force in and after the resurrection from the dead; for all contracts that are not made unto this end have an end when men are dead." (D&C132:7)

furnace:
the true leader is the one designated by the Lord THROUGH the very previous leader. Brigham Young did not say God would kill bad leaders of all religions, but that he would remove ANY man "from" the TRUE church ONLY if HE(the man) does wrong. He was also explaining this quote from the D&C:

“For behold, verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye have received a commandment for a law unto my church, through him whom I have appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations from my hand. And this ye shall know assuredly- that there is none other appointed unto you to receive commandments and revelations until he be taken, if he abide in me. But verily, verily, I say unto you, that none else shall be appointed unto this gift except it be through him; for if it be taken from him he shall not have power except to appoint another in his stead.“(D&C43:2-4)

LOIITMOC:
IF you could only see! Take the scales off of your eyes. Look up! There are no greater law than the ones you say. But every religion can claim they are living them. How do you show God the most? How do you aim the highest? Where do you turn for recieving the highest laws? You cannot remove Warrens authority, you can only remove your own.

Fundy: I do not know where you come from, but the PEOPLE who wanted to OBEY the MOST, who had the desire to do the will of God the MOST, never has it been lost, but only because of PERSECUTION will the true church need to be set in order.

Uncle Roy said:
“Every man and woman that desires to be crowned with a celestial crown must be able to stand under the pressure of whatever name or nature it will be. It was hard for the prophet to look upon the scenes; it will be hard for you and me to witness it, but we are about to witness something that the world has never seen before.... but the Lord told the Prophet Joseph that never again will the Priesthood be taken from the earth. ” (LSJ 9/7/75)

Blog Admin: I wanted to start this discussion on all three of Fundys threads so if he deletes them all we will know why.

CTR

TBM said...

why has the Lord allowed so many "apostate" leaders to go astray.
Furnace, that comment shows a very poor understanding of Christianity. Try reading, "Mere Christianity" by C.S. Lewis, or "Why Does God Allow War" by Martin Lloyd-Jones. They explain it much better than I can.

furnace said...

CTR,

Brother Musser was the "ONE MAN" and Uncle Roy discredited him in setting up the Allred Group. Obviously, the Allred group is the "ONE AND ONLY", and Warren is not descendent from that group.

EVERY GROUP CAN ARGUE THEIR LEGITIMACY, secret ordinations, etc., but I will not be a part of a group that does the dastardly things Warren is doing.

furnace said...

tbm,

The statement by Brigham Young about the Lord not allowing the leader to lead the people astray is part of cult mentality and circular reasoning.

You see, TBM, *Sarcasm on* I am obviously right in my views because the Lord would take me home if I was wrong. The Lord came to me last night and instructed me to start a new dispensation and correct some errors; I am now his one and only. *sarcasm off* Any group can make that claim. It's ridiculous doctrine to say the least; I realize you are a "True Blooded Mormon" and will defend what Brigham says, but I feel I have the right to reason what I believe to be totally false doctrine and what I believe to be true. It's my DUTY to reason things out for my family and not rely on others; relying on others leads to cultish behaviour.

We are responsible for our own actions, and we have a DUTY to know if our cult leaders are teaching right or wrong; it is a duty we owe to our families to investigate and reason the teachings of our leaders--blind faith it PCM (priestcraft control machinery) in action.

Anonymous said...

furnace,
I dont know how you became blind, but my faith is NOT out of blindness. My faith comes from my duty to know right from wrong, NOT in spite of it. You can tell what religion is right by those who live these words:

We claim the priviledge of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same priveledge. Let them worship how, where, or what they may.


CTR

onthestreet said...

You see, furnace: If the Prophet allows men (and women, and children) to leave, even to the point of casting them out, so that they can live "according the the dictates of their own conscience", but the world and all critics of the Prophet don't want to let this Church live and worship that way, WHICH CHURCH IS RIGHT?

TBM said...

Thanks, CTR! I would add that Christ taught that an evil tree cannot bring forth good fruit. My experience of the LDS church (I can't speak for the FLDS) is that, while it doesn't do everything right, overall its fruit is very good.

It might surprise you, Furnace, that this particular TBM was inactive for nine years. I'm not an active member now because I'm "brainwashed" (whatever that's supposed to mean), but because I like it, and I approve of it, and I see good things in it. Which leads me to believe in it and in the prophets including Brigham young.

furnace said...

Street, part of "worshipping God according to the dictates of our own conscience and allowing others the privilege" is to give our own children sufficient education that they can survive outside of the religion should they decide to leave, and give the women enough time to reach maturity before rushing them into marriage to allow them the privilege of being gentiles if that is what they want to be. Cults deprive children of education to where they can't leave a group and have marketable skills. Now, I do realize that some within the FLDS do have marketable skills and haven't chosen to leave, but do their children?

Anonymous said...

tbm,
I think anyone who knows any FLDS person, thinks highly of them. It is always the leader that people hate when they hate the FLDS.

"The man who holds the keys is always the object of assault. His life is the life that is most sought after. He is the man they would strike down if they had the power. They seek to weaken the confidence of the people in him, by all manner of slanders and by every sort of falsification." (George Q Cannon JD 24:276)

furnace,
I invite you to ask anyone who decided to leave the FLDS and see if they did not survive. You will find that their struggle was because of their desire NOT to leave. It is only their conscience keeping them. The women are usually mature before they get married. At least they think so. They make that choice themselves. Any one can leave whenever they want. The sons and daughters of the FLDS who do leave will tell you themselves that they have marketable skills. Just ask them.

CTR

Anonymous said...

tbm,
I think anyone who knows any FLDS person, thinks highly of them. It is always the leader that people hate when they hate the FLDS.

"The man who holds the keys is always the object of assault. His life is the life that is most sought after. He is the man they would strike down if they had the power. They seek to weaken the confidence of the people in him, by all manner of slanders and by every sort of falsification." (George Q Cannon JD 24:276)

furnace,
I invite you to ask anyone who decided to leave the FLDS and see if they did not survive. You will find that their struggle was because of their desire NOT to leave. It is only their conscience keeping them. The women are usually mature before they get married. At least they think so. They make that choice themselves. Any one can leave whenever they want. The sons and daughters of the FLDS who do leave will tell you themselves that they have marketable skills. Just ask them.

CTR

Anonymous said...

The difference between the FLDS church and the most other Mormon churches is the fact that we believe Wilford Woodruff was never the prophet even before the manifesto, and in fact rebelled against John Taylor in 1880 by writing a revelation directing his leader and not just himself; in which it says that all the apostles held the keys "in common", thus doing away with the "one man" doctrine. This doctrine of "keys in common" was the undoing of Joseph Musser, and those who claimed he was the "one man".

Perhaps this post will get Fundy to delete this thread, as he did both of the other ones in which I brought this up.

CTR

desert darling said...

CTR

What is with wanting to be "the most" above other people? That only promotes pushing others down.

"The most" that any person should be is "the most" that They personally can be.

Anonymous said...

Desert Darling-
This blog is here to put Warren and the FLDS down. I am here to do the opposite. If that is being "the most" so be it. It is just "the most" truth.

CTR

onthestreet said...

DESERT Said (8/23/2006 3:20 PM): CTR, What is with wanting to be "the most" above other people? That only promotes pushing others down. "The most" that any person should be is "the most" that They personally can be.

STREET’s Reply (Rev. 11:12): And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

CTR is correct again: Does God indeed push people down? Every criminologist will tell you that criminals only push themselves down. If good society is a source of extreme jealousy for you, then “If ye do well, Cain, thou shalt be accepted”. It is the spark of the Diety in all mankind that drives them to excell, or to seek to excell. Now, you tell me: Is that a crime? Perhaps in the estimation of a desert hag.

desert darling said...

Actually CTR, this blog is to discuss the whole thing openly, not just put wj and the FLDS down.

I love the FLDS. But I sure don't love a lot of their actions of the last few years. And of some in previous years as well.

Anonymous said...

"this blog is to discuss the whole thing openly"
BUT if I discuss it openly you dont like it?

CTR

fttc said...

Just because someone challenges your beliefs does not mean that they do not like them or you. I have appreciated all of your posts. I do not agree with much of what you say but you have provoked thought and dialogue. That is what this blog is about. That the purpose may appear to be to put warren and FLDS down is the result of not enough people like yourself coming on to comment. Keep it up.

Anonymous said...

CTR

Even us anti's have opposition. President Bush has opposition. President Clinton had opposition. Albert Einstein had opposition. Get used to it, and thicken your skin whenever someone says something against your prophet. It neither proves nor disproves Warren as a prophet.

ATAR_i said...

CTR, I have found that those who come here with an open mind, or at least try to be open, end up learning something about themselves, and about others that they didn't know.

You might believe a certain thing, it might not even be a tenant of your faith, but it's a preconceived idea about someone/something. Listening, asking questions, and dialogue brings us all to a better understanding of each other.

I don't agree with fttc or darlin all the time - but I really respect their beliefs.

If you come in, convinced you'll change how people perceive things, and yet aren't willing to change any of your own perceptions, people will brush you off. If you come in willing to listen and consider, you might change your perceptions, and we might change ours - plus the dialogue is great!

Sometimes - nobodies perception changes, but we develop respect - anyhow - don't be discouraged, I for one and happy for the dialogue you bring.

Anonymous said...

wow, what flattery

atari, fttc, anon, and onthestreet?

is it possible?

If I didnt have thick skin, there is no way I would even post on this blog. Like a Jew on a Nazi blog. Bring it on! (As long as I can remain anonymous)

How about this:

Warren Jeffs never hurt a flea, but is one of the FBI TOP TEN most wanted? That PROVES he is the "one man"

Now will you delete this thread Fundy?

CTR

ATAR_i said...

: )

Do you want fries with that?

Anonymous said...

My, my!! How in the world does being named to the FBI's top TEN most wanted "PROVE" Warren is the "one man?"

Please... I want to know! That statement just boggles the mind.

Hmmm... and how does that work for the other NINE folks on that list?

Anonymous said...

Warren never hurt a flea? What about the inicdent where Uncle Roy had to put a stop to beatings at the Jeffs school?

Anonymous said...

I see, CTR, that William Black is obviously the prophet because he is also "persecuted". Let's go talking about this holy, holy, holy, prophet.

muggsey said...

There more than one way to harm a flea. Mash him, flush him down the drain, put flea repellant on your animals.

The harm to the fleas that Warren has done is called mis-information, maintaining ignorance, causing harm to come to children, believing himself above the laws, encouraging fraud by women seeking federal and state aid as single parents, brainwashing his followers by not allowing them to have input from any source other than himself, holding the threat of banishment over their heads, promise of the use of the young as sex objects, theft of the common united fundings, escape to prevent administration of justice, promoting himself as god. All these things are being done to the fleas in Warrens former domain. the question is,"will new leadership allow freedom?" Will education be allowed, will the young boys and girls be left alone to find compatability leading to romance and a union of love instead of command? Time will tell.

desert darling said...

You got it about right muggs.

onthestreet said...

You mugged it about right, gaal!

Anonymous said...

Polygamy=Pedophiles. If FLDS only involved CONSENTING ADULTS (>21 years of age) no one would care, but since they insist on having old pervs pushing themselves sexually on young children, then, any adult that has sex with a child, and/or any parent that allows such abuse to occur, should be sterilized, and sent to prison, if not executed.

Here is a thought, perhaps FLDS would should only allow sexual contact and marriages of women after age 30, IQ of 130 or above, physically fit, and only recruit women with Master's or PhD degrees.

It would be very funny to watch those FLDS guys attempting to pick up on educated, well-travelled, women with high self esteem at Pepperdine Univ, Stanford, or MIT. LOL

Perhaps the time has come for FLDS to keep moving westward, and try their luck in Japan or Siberia.

muggsey said...

Texas Tech, Texas A&M, Vanderbilt, Duke, Baylor, Penn State, Notre Dame and Northwestern U. grads would be tougher nuts to crack. Most of them have their first, and most important degree before they ever step through the schoolhouse door, common sense.

You might catch one from one of the "elite" brain-trusts if you could pursuade them to join the cult in an effort to do Post Doctoral Research on the effects of inbreeding over a lengthy period or the effects of PMS on polygamists scheduling of 'breeding' sessions among scattered family units in the Western United States.

onthestreet said...

9/09/2006 6:08 PM
9/09/2006 9:06 PM

See? This bears repeating: You Mug it about right, just seeking to mug innocent people, a common thug. You are a criminal.

Do your clinical, or shall we say criminal, studies on your dogs. That, of course, would be yourselves.

muggsey said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.