Tuesday, August 15, 2006

Brigham Young on Atonement

"There are sins that men commit for which they cannot receive forgiveness in this world, or in that which is to come, and if they had their eyes open to see their true condition, they would be perfectly willing to have their blood spilt upon the ground, that the smoke thereof might ascend to heaven as an offering for their sins; and the smoking incense would atone for their sins, whereas, if such is not the case, they will stick to them and remain upon them in the spirit world."I know, when you hear my brethren telling about cutting people off from the earth, that you consider it is strong doctrine; but it is to save them, not to destroy them...."And further more, I know that there are transgressors, who, if they knew themselves, and the only condition upon which they can obtain forgiveness, would beg of their brethren to shed their blood, that the smoke thereof might ascend to God as an offering to appease the wrath that is kindled against them, and that the law might have its course. I will say further; I have had men come to me and offer their lives to atone for their sins."It is true that the blood of the Son of God was shed for sins through the fall and those committed by men, yet men can commit sins which it can never remit.... There are sins that can be atoned for by an offering upon an altar, as in ancient days; and there are sins that the blood of a lamb, or a calf, or of turtle dove, cannot remit, but they must be atoned for by the blood of the man." (Sermon by Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pages 53-54); also published in the Mormon Church's Deseret News, 1856, page 235)

36 comments:

fundy said...

"Now take a person in this congregation who has knowledge with regard to being saved... and suppose that he is overtaken in a gross fault, that he has committed a sin that he knows will deprive him of that exaltation which he desires, and that he cannot attain to it without the shedding his blood, and also knows that by having his blood shed he will atone for that sin and be saved and exalted with the Gods, is there a man or woman in this house but what would say, 'shed my blood that I may be saved and exalted with the Gods?'
"All mankind love themselves, and let these principles be known by an individual, and he would be glad to have his blood shed. That would be loving themselves, even unto an eternal exaltation. Will you love your brothers and sisters likewise, when they have committed a sin that cannot be atoned for without the shedding of their blood? Will you love that man or woman well enough to shed their blood? That is what Jesus Christ meant....
"I could refer you to plenty of instances where men have been righteously slain, in order to atone for their sins. I have seen scores and hundreds of people for whom there would have been a chance... if their lives had been taken and their blood spilled on the ground as a smoking incense to the Almighty, but who are now angels to the Devil... I have known a great many men who have left this Church for whom there is no chance whatever for exaltation, but if their blood had been spilled, it would have been better for them....
"This is loving our neighbor as ourselves; if he needs help, help him; and if he wants salvation and it is necessary to spill his blood on the earth in order that he may be saved, spill it.... if you have sinned a sin requiring the shedding of blood, except the sin unto death, would not be satisfied nor rest until your blood should be spilled, that you might gain that salvation you desire. That is the way to love mankind." (Sermon by President Brigham Young, delivered in the Mormon Tabernacle, February 8, 1857; printed in the Deseret News, February 18, 1857; also reprinted in the Journal of Discourses, Vol. 4, pages 219-220)

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fundy said...

In order to understand groups like the FLDS and others you need to understand their thinking. This doctrine along with other Mormon doctrine is what they believe.

And there are other things they make up along the way, just like the LDS.

Anonymous said...

Hey, why do entire threads up and vanish? What happened to the thread on the Constitution and Bill of Rights? Did it have something in it that the original poster disagreed with? So he takes liberty to erase it?

fundy said...

If you want to start a thread on the Constitution and Bill of Rights jump on in there. Mine was a pretty short one. Take over and give us a better one. If people want to live under someone like WJ that is their right under the Constitution and they shoud be allowed. Even if we don't like it. If they think he is a Profit from Heaven , so let them think that. They have a religious right to worship as they please. Even if we don't agree with them.

Anonymous said...

The point is, fundy, why do you enjoy destroying threads?

Anonymous said...

I think fundy is just a troll that likes to get conversations started and then enjoys purging the whole thread for sport.

fundy said...

Life in a Mormon Fundamentalist group is very different than alot of other religions. Salt Lake City under Brigham Young was a very different place than it is today. The LDS religion during that time was a very different religion and city than it is now. In order to understand the FLDS and other Mormon groups you need to understand some of their doctrine.
There was the LeBarons "blood atoning" (killing someone so their spilled blood can atone for their sins) murderous rampage of the 1970s.

The LDS Church, which brought polygamy with it to Utah during the mid-1800s, has been busy trying to induce amnesia by pretending the faithful never lived polygamy or ever defended it as a commandment from God.

fttc said...

Warning to all posters:

If you want your comments left on the blog do not place them on any of Fundy's threads. He has repeatedly deleted threads on which he does not like the direction of the dialogue.

fundy said...

TO be quite truthfull I never really payed much attention to the comments on that thread. And thought it had run its course. I would have left it up had I known there was interest in it.

Anonymous said...

Fundy,

I don't believe you.

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

If there is no interest in a thread, let it survive and be in the archives. If there is interest, let the dialog continue.

fttc said...

That doesn't hold water at all. There are threads on here by you Fundy that have had no comments for several days at least and never had many to begin with. Why are they still up but one that is active and had over 60 posts is deleted? I agree with Anon 9:33.

Anonymous said...

Who do you think you are Fundy? Your threads are so completely boring except to OTS and Muggsey. My two cents says shut the *&)^%^& up.
Austin

TBM said...

Fundypretending the faithful never lived polygamy or ever defended it as a commandment from God

Nonsense! What total, complete and utter hogwash!

ATAR_i said...

Fundy Likes to Erase all his threads. Start a new thread if you want to discuss this topic - or start a mirror thread that won't be deleted.

If fundy deletes this thread - IT WILL NOT SURVIVE IN ANY ARCHIVES, IT WILL BE DUST in the wind.

furnace said...

This is still here? Rest of my reply is in Atar_i's thread.

Anonymous said...

fundy is lying he deletes threads that he cannot respond to

Anonymous said...

Fundy,

Since you insist on bringing up this blood atonement issue, I have a simple question.

In the days of Jesus, a woman was brought before him because she had committed certain sins that in that day made her worthy to be stoned to death (kind of similar to blood atonement, is it not). I hope you know what His reply was. Now I think Jesus had it right, and the woman wasn't "atoned", but was actually forgiven if she would forsake her sins and do them no more. When did we rise above Jesus to the point that we can judge other (I thought we were to forgive all and leave judgement to the Lord) and when did we become so pure and perfect that we are sine free to the point that metaphorically speaking we can “cast the first stone”?

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

Fundy,
The FLDS does not belive in "assisted suicide". But does believe in blood atonement. There is a difference.

Think of it this way. Jesus Christ died on the cross in atonement for sin. Was his death suicide? NO!

There are men who cannot be forgiven without blood atonement, but God will take care of it Himself, without me.

CTR

Anonymous said...

CTR,

Clarification please.

Are you saying you don't believe what Brother Brigham said?

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

Will warren be forgiven? Should we blood atone him? If anyone deserves it, it would be him. No need to use stones a 45 would do just fine.
I am married to one of Warrens realitives.The things I have been told about alta academey, give credit to Brents story.

Anonymous said...

anon 3:26 PM,

While I don't agree with much of what Warren has done, are we any better than he if we want to destroy him. I would like to see his actions in tearing apart families stopped, but I think judgement should be in the hands of someone greater than us all. He has only been able to do what he has done because we have let him. When each of us individually says "I have had enough, you are not doing this to me or mine" only then will he (or the leaders after him) be stopped.
Unfortunately, the FLDS religion has taught dependancy and the members have bought into it to such an extent that many will not or dare not think for themselves, but can only do what their “priesthood head” tells them. Many of the men who have had their families removed, and most of the men who have married other men’s wives feel they are doing the Lord’s will because their “priesthood head” told them so. If the conscience tries to speak, they will immediately “sacrifice” those feelings because “the prophet speaks for the Lord, and will not lead the people astray”. They excuse their actions because the “lord” has commanded it and He has the right to organize His family as He sees fit.
Now while we are all children of the Lord, if this family swapping were correct doctrine, the “one man” must then be our only true father on earth and the rest of the men in the FLDS are nothing more than sperm donors to his family. Until the men wake up and realize God gave them a conscience and a brain and expects them to use them in taking care of their own stewardship, and that they alone will be accountable unto Him for how they treat their wives and raise their children, this crazy mess which we now witness will not be stopped.
For the record, I have forgiven Warren. Just keep in mind, it is not only him, but a flawed paradigm that the FLDS is operating under.

IITMOC

Anonymous said...

I went to Alta Academy, if you give credit to Brents story, you too will also believe an obvious lie.

onthestreet said...

STREET’s Reply:

Redemption is in Christ Jesus, whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation THROUGH FAITH in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God (Rom.3:23-25-) Joseph taught that any religion that has not daily revelation lacks that faith, and Paul taught that any faith that is without works is DEAD (James 2:20): “But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Therefore, we see the “Acts of God” now bringing about that blood atonement in numerous wars, plagues, storms, and other events now underway, since the Atonement of Christ requires a living faith (Romans 3:23-5), like CTR aptly and correctly puts it, not assisted suicide.

Today, the Prophet Warren can say:
(Acts 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed THE CHURCH of God which he hath purchased with his own blood”, not the whole world that is now deceived by Satan (Rev. 12:9):

29. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.


You see, CTR is right, and Brigham is right.

ATAR_i said...

anon 12:21 did you acompany him to the bathroom *every time*, or just the times he "wasn't molested"? OR are you a girl, and didn't get to go in for the 'extra special lavoratory tuoring sessions' at all?

p.s. don't make stupid statements like that. You weren't with Brent 24/7 and for all I know you could be warren 'the molestor'.

Anonymous said...

What's so obvious about the lie? When I see someone with more piety than common sense, I smell a rat. George A. Smith was referring to immoral people in the context of the following:

J of D 7:116
When a man professes a great deal of sanctity ── a great deal of holiness and piety, ── when he can scarcely speak without a pious groan, he is to be suspected; for such hypocrisy is in itself the most cursed corruption that can exist.

Anonymous said...

No I wasnt with Brent 24/7 or with Warren 24/7, but DUH! I went to Alta, Warren has children the same age as Brent, and some older(only daughters), I knew Brent, he was a pretty happy kid, I knew Ward, he was always trying to get Warren to give his children exceptions to the rules.

ATARI- IF what I said was stupid, then the fact that you believe someone who believes heresay about Alta Academy is STUPIDITY at its best.

Warren never was pious around me, never once boasted, he was anxious to help. He never once talked down to me. I cannot say the same about Ward.

Believe what you want, just dont be surprised in the end. Don't be stupid.

Anonymous said...

George A Smith was referring to William Law, who pretended to be righteous by talking down to people, yet was a dishonest, deceptive, Judas like apostate.

CTR

onthestreet said...

TAR Said: p.s. don't make stupid statements like that. You weren't with Brent 24/7 and for all I know you could be warren 'the molestor'. 8/24/2006 7:48 AM

STREET's Reply: Except for the fact that Brent is now on record for saying that, in regard to his accusation (and I quote it directly):

"TRUTH HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH IT"

ATAR_i said...

OTS - you're going to have to reference anything you want to quote.

Your a liar and a twister - I wont' take your word for anything.

Reference it (with a link) or don't bother posting it as any shade of truth.

muggsey said...

hey street!

Warren is in jail. If you ARE Warren you probably have figured that out by now.

onthestreet said...

Yes, I am right there.

muggsey said...

See my post on the above thread re. "Legalizing Polygamy."

onthestreet said...

Why should I? We're dealing in the here and now, and here and now you're on your fanny. That is why the MUK-SEE is still the MUD-RUMP, SEE?

muggsey said...

See my post on the above thread re. "Leagalizing Polygamy."

onthestreet said...

MUKKY (9/09/2006 10:37 AM):

Ahh, now he's throwing another tantrum.

"I SAID: LOOK AT ME"!
"I SAID: LOOK AT ME"!